Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
To respond to the challenging times we are living through, physician, humanitarian and social justice advocate Dr. Paul Zeitz has identified “Revolutionary Optimism” as a new cure for hopelessness, despair, and cynicism. Revolutionary Optimism is itself an infectious, contagious, self-created way of living and connecting with others on the path of love. Once you commit yourself as a Revolutionary Optimist, you can bravely unleash your personal power, #unify with others, and accelerate action for our collective repair, justice, and peace, always keeping love at the center.
Liz - 00:00:03:
Welcome to Revolutionary Optimism. Issues like economic hardship, a teetering democracy, and the worsening climate emergency have left many Americans feeling more despair than ever. Fortunately, physician, humanitarian, and social justice advocate Dr. Paul Zeitz has identified Revolutionary Optimism as a new cure for that hopelessness and cynicism. Once you commit yourself as a revolutionary optimist, you can bravely unleash your personal power, #unify with others, and accelerate action for repair, justice, and peace. On this podcast, Dr. Zeitz is working to provide you with perspectives from leaders fighting for equity, justice, and peace on their strategies for overcoming adversity and driving forward revolutionary transformation with optimism. Today's guest is Reverend Dr. Liz Theoharis. Reverend Dr. Liz Theoharis is a theologian, pastor, author, and anti-poverty organizer who has spent more than 30 years walking alongside poor and low-income communities. As co-chair of the Poor People's Campaign, a national call for moral revival, and director of the Kairos Center for Religions, Rights, and Social justice, she stands at the bold intersection of faith and freedom. She's the author of You Only Get What You're Organized to Take, We Pray Freedom, and Always With Us? What Jesus Really Said About the Poor. She's been recognized by the National Civil Rights Museum, the Presbyterian Church, and countless others for her unwavering commitment to justice. Here's your host, Dr. Paul Zeitz.
Paul - 00:01:35:
Hey, Dr. Liz, it's so great to meet you. Thank you so much for being on the podcast today. It's really a true honor to have you here.
Announcer - 00:01:42:
Well, thank you for having me, Dr. Paul. It's good to be with you.
Paul - 00:01:45:
Thank you. So we are living in interesting times. And I frequently, Reverend Adam Taylor, who runs Sojourners, I don't know if you know him, but he introduced this idea of a Kairos moment. And that we may be living in one of those phases of human history right now. So where I'll let you explain what that is. So can you tell us about who you are and what the Kairos Center is up to these days?
Announcer - 00:02:14:
Yeah. Thank you so much. So yeah. My name is Reverend Dr. Liz Theoharis. I have been organizing amongst poor and low-income folk for more than 30 years of my life. I was raised in a social justice family and have walked at this intersection of faith and justice and especially kind of bottom-up struggles. For really my whole life. I helped to found the Kairos Center for Religions, Rights, and Social justice. Some years ago. And Kairos is a Greek term, a biblical term. And it's a concept of time, but it's not chronological time. It's movement time. It's when the old ways of injustice, the old structures of inequality are crumbling and new movements for justice are breaking through. And I would say, indeed, this is a Kairos moment. This is a Kairos time, an opportune time where there's crisis all around, whether it's systemic racism and the kind of decline of our democracy, whether it's the polarization of wealth and poverty at new heights, whether it's the climate crisis or our proximity to war, including nuclear war and the end of times, where there is crisis all around. But, but movements for justice, those at the bottom of society are poking through, are pushing through with new visions of what this world could really be and how we're going to make it in the image of justice and peace and liberation.
Paul - 00:04:13:
May it be so in our time.
Announcer - 00:04:16:
May it be so, in our time.
Paul - 00:04:16:
May it be so quickly.
Announcer - 00:04:18:
Indeed.
Paul - 00:04:19:
In our time, yeah. So, yeah, a Kairos moment of possibility is how I understood it. It seems like we're in this peril, but the paradox is that it's also a moment or a phase and time of possibility. And that's really how I buoy myself when I'm feeling despair or hopelessness. I'm very excited about your work. So can you tell us about, okay, it's... It's... End of March, 2025. And we're in the midst of, we're in the early stages of a new government at the federal level, which seems to be, I've been saying to folks, it's like the rise of Jim Crow again. It's like the racism and the billionaire class, the elites that are controlling the government are. Really putting people of color, really people of economic struggle in even worse situations. The social safety net is being attacked and probably destroyed. Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, all these programs that... Protect the vulnerable, the impoverished, and at least give them some foundation most of the time. What do you think is going on?
Announcer - 00:05:40:
I mean, I think it's really important for us to actually see what's happening now and how we kind of got here. I mean, before January, before November, even there were 140 million people who were poor or one couple hundred dollar emergency from absolute economic ruin. That's more than 40% of the U.S. population was poor or low income. And over the course of the last couple of years, we've had tens of millions of people lose their Medicaid. We've had tens of millions of people, you know, be on the verge of homelessness. I mean, and poverty, inequality was one of the top five sources of death, causes of death, even before where we are right now. Right. We had fewer voting rights in the last two presidential elections than we'd ever had since going back to, to the Black freedom struggle and some of the advances that were made in the 1960s. And just, I mean, we could just. Continue to outline the crises that are, you know, besetting our nation. And then enter Donald Trump and J.D. Vance and Elon Musk and Doge and, you know, this a number of the richest people in the world who are who are making the government in their image, not in the desires of the people, not in the, the, the demands of of of society, but but in fact, you know, dismantling, you know, the Department of Education and and, you know. You know, core social safety net functions that people have come to rely on, including threatening Social Security, including threatening Medicare, at the same time as starting to really chip away and get rid of Medicaid. And this is impacting not the ones and twos, not the tens and twenties, not the hundreds and thousands. This is impacting millions of people. And if we've started off with almost half of the U.S. society experiencing some form of poverty. And then now we look at the economic crisis that this is besetting. I mean, the tanking of the U.S. economy on a global scale, and therefore the role it can play in tanking the global economy. If we look at, you know, the kind of day-to-day struggles of everyday people in this country, let alone the cutting of aid across the world. And I mean, what we're seeing is, is actually throwing more hundreds of millions of people into chaos and into, um, you know, both a place of no democracy, no self-determination, no say of... Being able to make decisions that impact your life and the kind of ripping away of, you know, just the means to make a living and to keep a roof over your head and to make sure your kids can have, you know, health care. And so I think what we're seeing right now is not the will of people, but it is, you know, the kind of... What some of the richest people in the world desire to do. And it's about kind of dismantling the government and people expecting anything good coming from society at large. But, again... I don't lose hope in a moment like this because what I think we're also seeing at the same time as these huge cuts, these huge attacks, you know, the scapegoating of whole communities, whether it's immigrants, whether it's LGBTQ folks, whether it's poor and low income and homeless people. At the same time, you see across the country in small towns and cities and suburbs and exurbs and some of the biggest metropolitan areas, you have people that are standing up, you know, diaper banks and food programs. They're figuring out how to do GoFundMe's to make sure people have health care. Now, it shouldn't come to this, right? Our society should actually be taking care of people. But what people are doing is saying, as they kind of protest Elon Musk and Donald Trump, is that it shouldn't have to be this way. It doesn't have to be this way. And let's build society in a way that we can lift from the bottom so everybody can rise.
Paul - 00:10:27:
Yes, well, thank you for that. It's very disturbing and heartbreaking. And it's also inspiring. Like you said, people are responding to the circumstances. And that's a sign of community resilience. And some people feel like the federal level is collapsing. And we need to focus on the local level like you're doing. Late last year, I heard a... By Gloria Steinem. Shared a piece of wisdom that was popping in my mind as you were talking. She said that we have to serve as hospice workers for the dying systems of the past. And at the same time, we have to serve as midwives who are birthing the new systems that we're living into. So this community resilience that you're describing. Part of the new systems, probably, is how I see it. So I love that metaphor. We have to hold both. At the same time. And I've always been curious when, you know, sometimes in the advocacy movements that I'm part of, it feels like it's the privileged people who have the luxury of taking time. Out of their day to deploy it into advocacy and campaigning. I've always felt a lot of empathy for people who are struggling to feed their family. Have housing, they're in a daily struggle. How do they, how do you, how does your organization, either Kairos Center or the Poor People's Campaign, How do you? Inspire people. Even when they're in dire circumstances in their day-to-day life, to also become active in campaigning and advocacy.
Announcer - 00:12:14:
Well, I think even what we're seeing right now, and I think it's related to that Gloria Steinem kind of concept and quote, like is the kind of old ways dying and the new ways being born. And in both situations, people who are compelled to respond, who have no choice but to do whatever it's going to take to feed their families, are actually in leadership roles in this moment. And, you know, I think of the quote from a favorite quote of mine from Frederick Douglass, where he says that those in pain know when their pain is relieved. Those who would be free must strike that first blow. Right. And I think about from some of the anti-poverty organizing I've been doing, whether in the 1980s and 90s with the Homeless Union, where unhoused people, as they would be evicted or foreclosed upon, moved back into the houses that they were evicted from or foreclosed upon. And, you know, and figured out a way to house themselves. And what we were able to do in this kind of National Union of the Homeless Organizing Drive was politicize and spread that. But it was what people were already being compelled to do. And I think the same is happening, whether it's around immigration defense or whether it's around gender affirming care or whether it's around, you know, people getting the food and the diapers and the health care and the housing that they need. Is that it's not so much like asking people to come to a protest or to a rally. It's it's it's what people are being compelled to do, have no choice but to do. And it's kind of it reminds me of a quote from Howard Thurman, you know, the theologian of the Black freedom struggle, who who said, you know, we have our backs against the wall and what we can do is push. Right. And I think that that's what I'm seeing in communities across the country, whether it's. We're on a kind of organizing tour with the Kairos Center or whether it's coordinating committee leaders of the Poor People's Campaign, is that you have poor and low income people. You have folks that are fighting around housing or health care. Some of these basic economic issues, basic survival issues who, who are then working on on resolving the very problems in their lives as they work to resolve the problems of their whole community and of the larger society. Right. And I think, we're seeing an uptick in this, like, you know, whether it's, you know, the mutual aid that people are organizing in their communities or whether it's protests. You know, last week I was at multiple around, you know, attacks on education, around, you know, attacks on the climate. And here you have impacted folk, you know, folks that are impacted first and worst by all of the kind of injustices of our society and of the current attacks by this administration who are helping to lead the way to something else. And, you know, I find that, you know, inspiring and exciting. And it's not so much like how do you have time to get involved. It's that people's very survival is at stake. Their very livelihoods are at stake. And people are clear about that and are pushing back and saying, you know, this isn't going to happen to us. We're not going to just fight back when you make these cutbacks. We're going to hold you to the fact that it doesn't have to be this way.
Paul - 00:15:41:
Fantastic. That's great to hear. So I want to do it. I see a new book coming out over your shoulder there. And I want to take a moment to ask you to share a little bit about You Only Get What You're Organized to Take, which it sounds like what you just described. You know, people who are in these dire circumstances. For their own survival, have to stand up and get organized. And fight for their own rights, their own human rights. Tell us about your book. I can't wait till it comes out. And I look forward to reading it and learning from it.
Announcer - 00:16:16:
Awesome. Thanks. Yeah. So You Only Get What You’re Organized to Take: Lessons from the Movement to End Poverty. I have a co-author, his name is Noam Sandweiss-Back, and the two of us are able to kind of tell a bunch of these untold stories, you know, of poor people organizing, whether it's around homeless organizing or welfare rights activism, whether it's low wage workers, or these kind of new coalitions of poor and low income folks that have emerged over the last couple of decades. It really has stories from about three decades worth of organizing and activism. And that title, You Only Get What You're Organized to Take, actually comes as one of the slogans that homeless leaders in the 80s and 90s, folks that recruited me back in the mid-90s to engage in doing very grassroots anti-poverty organizing, had come up with. And, you know, we had other slogans, you know, no housing, no peace, you know, homeless, not helpless, power, not pity. But one of our favorites, and part of the reason we titled this book this way, is that You Only Get What You're Organized to Take, you know, the power of people banding together, organizing together, coming together, and not being, you know, victims of a cruel injustice in our society, but really subjects of our own reality, you know, agents of moral, political, epistemological agents of change in our society. And so, you know, what we're able to do in this book is weave together some of an analysis of the economic and political, you know, currents of the last couple of decades, look at the rise of Christian Nationalism and extremism, look at human rights as kind of the right to not be poor, and affirming, you know, this kind of demands that are coming out of grassroots communities, and doing it all through telling a series of stories of, you know, some of the real, what I would call heroes and heroines of this country, who are out, you know, in, you know, Welch West Virginia, or Immokalee, Florida, or San Jose, California, oftentimes folks that are not talked about or seen as the real leaders, grassroots leaders for systemic change that folk are waging, but who have some real stories and some real lessons and have won some significant victories, you know, around water rights, around healthcare rights, around immigrant rights, around, you know, abolishing systemic racism, and police brutality.
Paul - 00:18:58:
Give us a, like, make this real for us. Pick one. Pick one of the ones in your book and help us connect with... One of your heroes or heroines.
Announcer - 00:19:09:
One that's coming to my mind right now is um, Sharon Lavigne, who is a leader in the cancer alley, um, uh, she runs an organization called RISE St. James. Which is one of the River Parish, uh, parishes you know, along, in Louisiana, where the rates of cancer are just like unbelievably high. And she kind of got into this struggle, because uh she believes God talked to her, and told her that there was something going on, that was not right in her community. And and she came together with family and friends, and folks that were you know, dying of various forms of cancer, and and discovered you know, just some of the level of pollution. Um, and then started to figure out, who were some of the other chemical companies that were coming, coming to her community. Trying to set up plants, right across the street from, from you know, Title I Schools you know, who, who was trying to, um, you know, come in and and further exploit her and her neighbors, and and she stood up a bunch of protests and marches and acts, you know, actions and was able to push back and win. That a couple of these companies you know, did not get to to open up shop in her community, um, and and so to hear a story of of poor and impacted folk you know, who have come together and marched and chanted and sung together you know, she rewrote the song um, Victory Is Mine, and she you know she she would she would put the name of some of the chemical companies that they were trying to organize against, you know, instead of, um, you know Victory Is Mine, Victory Is Mine you know, I told uh you know, this this company to get thee behind because victory today is mine, and, um, and and you know I think it's inspiring, you know, here you have uh, communities that have been, uh, hurt and and attacked for, for a long time now, um, but where folk are are clear, and, and fighting back and, and not just fighting back but winning, um, and so you know, that's a it's a powerful story, right?
Paul - 00:21:10:
Yeah, it's very powerful, and it touched my heart, you know, that's why your book is so important. And I hope my listeners will check it out. We need to be inspired by actual people who are doing the frontline work. And under duress, right? They're in their own... Life of struggle, and yet they're still fighting for their rights. And I think that's really deeply inspiring. I wanted to ask you, there's something that I've been reading about your work that it's called moral fusion organizing. And I'd love you to explain that to me and explain it to my listeners. Like, what is that?
Announcer - 00:21:45:
Yeah, thanks for that. So we can almost kind of take all three words, right, moral. But somehow, religion, and including Christianity, I'm a Christian pastor, you know, has been hijacked by some extremists. And the real issues, the 2000 passages in the Bible that talk about, you know, justice for the poor and stopping depriving the poor of their rights and stopping, you know, stealing the wages of workers. Somehow those are ignored and a small number of issues that actually either the Bible has almost nothing to say about or says exactly the opposite of what these extremists will say, it says, you know, has become, there's been an equal sign between kind of extremism and morality. When the real moral issues of our day and the real moral issues in our Constitution or in our religious traditions are about healthcare and justice and, you know, a livelihood for everyone and, you know, bearing the fruit of one's labor, you know, these very key concepts. So this moral, like what are the real moral issues of the day? What's right and wrong? And it's wrong to be throwing out more food than it takes to feed every person in this country and across the world. And yet we have half of our kids in food insecure homes, right? That's immoral. That's wrong.
Paul - 00:23:09:
That is wrong. I agree.
Announcer - 00:23:10:
And then there's fusion. And particularly looking at the kind of first reconstruction and this movement that was called, that called itself a fusion movement of poor white and formerly enslaved black folk, especially in the small towns and rural areas of the South who, who came forward in a fusion movement, you know, coming together across the lines of divide, you know, fusing us into a struggle and a movement that's more powerful than any of our individual struggles and issues, you know, and, and building a bridge between those lines that divide, especially around geography, especially around race in this country. And so that's fusion and it's powerful. And then there's organizing, right? Because nothing, you know, takes a place of organizing of putting people in relationship to each other, you know, having folk, you know, come out and realize that, that we have a power, a people power. And so, so, so much of the work that we're doing, so much of that, that movement building is, is taking on what are the real moral issues of the day. It's trying to pull people together across all the lines that divide us. And it's trying to organize us into a powerful force that in the words of Dr. King can make those in power say yes, when they may be desirous of saying no. I mean, what's happened for, for years now, before even this current political reality was that we've heard too much. No, you know, no, we can't really expand healthcare. No, we can't really raise the wages. You know, it's been almost 15 years since we've had a, a pay, you know, a minimum wage raise. No, we can't really, you know, improve our schools. And, and so we're trying to build up the power through organization, through organizing for people to say yes.
Paul - 00:25:05:
Beautiful. So now thank you for clarifying moral fusion organizing. One of the things that I've, as an advocate and campaigner, always have been exploring is, as you know, when you get down to the grassroots level, there's a lot of parallel things happening. And people that are out there are like confused. They don't know whether to organize with this one or that one or that one. And so one of the things that I think is happening now in response to the acceleration of all these crises that you've described is a... Organizing fusion or a coalescence or a convergence of action. And I've seen this even yesterday. I saw, you know, the 50-51 Group fusing with the Women's March on April 5th, coming up later this week. And I was like, that's exactly what we need to do. And I just wonder whether you agree with that or how do you see that happening or what do me and other activists need to do to kind of facilitate that community fusion of an action so that we build political power?
Announcer - 00:26:22:
That's right. I mean, I think we are seeing the beginnings of people coming together across a bunch of these organizations and silos. And I find it also very exciting. I mean, the Kairos Center is also participating in the April 5th hands-off actions. We actually put together some prayers and litanies and a bunch of songs. We feel like culture is actually a huge part of holding out this other moral vision of how things could be. But it's been exciting to see a thousand actions planned and hundreds of thousands of people who are coming together, not just their organization, not just their community group, but across that. And I think this is a moment where we need a lot of flowers to bloom and some of them blooming together in connection to each other. And at the Kairos Center, we're also calling in the midst of all of this for a survival revival. And so the idea there is that out of these survival struggles of poor and low-income communities, out of what immigrant communities are needing to do to stave off detention and deportation, what women are working around in terms of and LGBTQ communities around gender justice and reproductive justice. That's actually about our very survival. It's actually about how are we going to be. Able to be, you know, the people that we are in the society. And so we're kind of launching an organizing tour where we're going to connect up with, and we're hoping a lot of other organizations, a lot of other religious groups, and imagining it's going to take lots of different forms, but of how do we kind of build up and across, you know, all of the different entities in our society to be, you know, a beacon of kind of hope and justice and truth and freedom, like in the truest sense. Because again, like when I am out in the community, when I'm traveling across this country, I am hearing over and over and over again that people are not content with how things are. They desire justice. They desire liberation. They think we should be being paid, you know, living wages, a fair wage. There should be a fair taxation system in this country. We, you know, we should be building up schools, not, you know, eliminating services for kids with disabilities or other low-income places. I mean, people just do not agree with any of that agenda. But how we can kind of amass a power and an authority to be able to turn this ship around is how do we connect with millions and hundreds of millions of people who are, you know, currently struggling, but who, and struggling for their survival, but who can hold out the hope that we want to not just survive, but to thrive.
Paul - 00:29:37:
Yes, exactly. So we are very much aligned with our analysis and with the opportunities that we see. And I wanted to, you mentioned the constitution, so I have to go there. What I've been working on for the last several years, I've always understood that the governing framework that we're living under is the problem. Because, it was designed by white male oligarchs. It set up oppression systems. It codified caste as the form of government, basically. Like this group of wealthy elites are allowed to oppress the rest of the people. And it's 238 years later, and it works like a charm. It's so powerful. But it's outgrown its usefulness, and it's actually collapsing right now. You know, you have to remember, it was also written by Candlelight and Quill. These folks ran around in horse and buggy. They could not have imagined. The complexity of the modern world, the inner connection as well, with information, communication, transportation technologies. Our constitutional order is not keeping up with the rapidly changing realities, and it's not addressing the core moral values that our Abrahamic traditions call for, liberty and justice for all, as you eloquently said. So the idea that I'm working on right now is we've launched this interpartisan citizens movement called #UnifyUSA. And the idea is to go at a mezzo level and focus on creating citizens' assemblies where the people's voices are heard. It's a form of deliberative democracy. And focus that on hitting refresh on the U.S. constitution. So we're calling for state assemblies, local assemblies, and we're aiming for a national citizens' assembly by June of next year, 2026, just 15 months from now, so that we can agree, the people can agree, the citizens of the country can agree on a refreshed constitution we can then get it ratified through popular vote and through mobilization, through moral leadership, basically, and assert governing authority, basically, by July 4th, 2026. The 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. I'm a doctor by training, so when the heart of America is dead... As you described so accurately in my view, we have to do a heart transplant. We need a new governing framework, and we can't wait. We can't wait five, ten years. We've got to do it now, now. So that's where we're at. And the idea of it, actually, is what you were saying. It's like, how do we create a... Fusion movement to take on the big system. That's what I think is possible. So I would love to hear. Now, we have been pre-briefed on this, so I apologize. Feel free to, you know... Say pros and cons, whatever you feel called to share.
Announcer - 00:32:39:
I appreciate you sharing. I'm not sure I... I'm not sure I have much of either, but I appreciate the framework for sure.
Paul - 00:32:48:
Okay, great. That's good. Well, let's follow up and I'd love to talk to you about it in more detail. I've been a long follower of the Poor People's Campaign and I worked on legislation, the third reconstruction legislation with Congresswoman Barbara Lee in the last cycle. I mean, how are you all, how is the Poor People's Campaign and the Kairos Project, how are you dealing with The political situation where racial justice, economic justice, gender justice, all the, you know, ending poverty, those things aren't even on the radar right now. They're being crushed. By the political system.
Announcer - 00:33:27:
I think it's really true that like right now, um, I mean... In fact, what's happening is so much of the kind of... So many of the attacks coming from Elon Musk and Donald Trump in this administration are actually direct attacks on the poor. I mean, we've been living in a war on the poor for a while, but it's definitely intensified. In fact, Elon Musk will describe poor people as parasites and some of the thinkers behind Project 2025 and much of the legislation that the administration is forwarding at this moment really is very, at its core, anti-poor. And so it is true that in a moment like this, people are just trying to hang on to kind of this, like they say cut back, we say fight back. And I think that fight back really matters. It really, it's important. I'm excited and emboldened by the fact that many folks are fighting back. And I think that, you know, what we know is that part of actually how we got to where we are right now is because of a decades-long attack on, whether it's through neoliberal economic policies or whether it's through, you know, other, you know, kind of the takeover of our political systems with, you know, the Citizens United decision or the attack on voting rights and kind of democratic participation. I don't believe that this is just a time to push back or to try to get a little piece. But in fact, people are asking for a larger kind of social transformation. And in that larger social transformation, you know, therein lies, like, the possibility of what it looks like to center your policies around the needs and demands of the vulnerable and of the economically insecure. And in fact, you can see the relationship and the importance of the relationship between poverty and economic insecurity and kind of authoritarianism and, and the kind of decline of democracy and, and, you know, what we saw in Michigan, for instance, you know, decades ago with a bunch of the water crises and other crises that were happening across Michigan, whether it was, as it became a right to work state or as the, the, the city of Flint was poisoned or the city of Detroit was, you know, taken over and receivership you know, what, what happened was that as democratic decline happened, like as the people's ability to vote for the folks that were going to make decisions about their lives was, was taken away, that that's when especially poor and low income communities suffered even more. And so I think we have to see that these, the current kind of authoritarian regime and you know, much of what was happening in the current system right now, you know, is impacting everybody, including poor and low income people the most. And, and that therefore following the lead almost as, as canaries in the coal mine of, of poor and low income folks, we, we could learn about how we actually transform society from, from the bottom up. And, and I have to say, you know, the week that we're talking is in the anniversary of, of the assassination of Dr. King who, you know, called for a moral revolution of, of our, our deepest values and who talked about, you know, true compassion is more than slinging a coin to a beggar. It requires us to question an edifice and restructure an edifice that, that produces beggars. And I think that that's, that's what we're talking about today. The only response to, to Doge cuts and federal attacks, you know, isn't, you know, tinkering at the edges. It's, it's about, you know, putting forward a vision of society that, that, that puts people first.
Paul - 00:37:58:
And yes, hallelujah. May it be so again, we're aligned. I just last question really wanted to ask you a personal question. Since you're a leader in this movement for justice, but you're also, that brings you in close proximity. To all the despair and all the suffering. You ever get downtrodden? Do you ever feel hopeless and despairing? And how do you personally... Like, cope. With all this. All the pain and suffering that you, I'm sure, are aware of and in touch with directly. So... How do you cope?
Announcer - 00:38:40:
Yeah, I mean, I really feel like... There is hope in the kind of devastation and mourning of people. I went to seminary my first day of... Of systemic theology class with James Cone, you know, the kind of father of black theology was 9/11. And it was really interesting because many of my classmates, you know, had real crises of faith in seminary as the Twin Towers fell. And as, you know, I think, you know, we were, we were brought thrust into a different kind of era and a different reality. Right? And it was really interesting for me because I was reflecting on, on, you know, what my faith was because I didn't have a crisis of faith. When that happened. Um, and I, I realized that many of, of my Christian colleagues, um, uh, you know, had faith, their faith was that good things had to mostly happened. And the good things were going to continue to happen. And I realized that having organized and lived amongst, you know, homeless encampments and poor and low-income families, you know, folks that have had to bury their children and their elders way too early and didn't have any resources to do so, that folks... In the movement I was a part of, like didn't have faith that things were going to, you know, that things had been good and they were going to get better. They had a faith that like, even though only hard things, bad things, horrible things that happened, that, that, that didn't have the last word, that something else was possible. And so, and I think, um, or, I think about, you know, the story of Easter, because we're almost, we're in Lent for Christians, right? And we're approaching Passover for Jews, and we're celebrating the end of Eid for Muslims. But all of these seasons are actually, are pretty linked, are pretty similar. But in the Holy Week story, you know, where the first resurrection happens isn't after the death and the burial. When Jesus is crucified and is dying on the cross, the temple curtain tears, and there's an earthquake. And what happens in that earthquake is that the tombs of the prophets of the freedom fighters who had come before open up, and they're raised up, they're resurrected to kind of join in the struggle to continue, you know, the movement. And I think about that when I'm traveling around, when I'm in communities that are, like, are really going through it, where, you know, families, you know, burying their kids or not able to afford, you know, a $53 procedure, which results in someone dying, you know. I mean, just, like, horrible stuff, just horrible. But that, like, but that death in that situation doesn't have the last word. And it's not that we're waiting for some happy, easy time. But in the midst of that horrible, in the midst of the kind of darkness and the despair, that's exactly where you can see, like. Kind of hope and possibility of something else. Whether it's a Phoenix rising for the ashes or whether it's those freedom fighters from the ages, you know, cropping up out of their tombs to get ready for the next march and rally. And I think I see that. And I think I hold out this hope and this faith that it doesn't have to be this way and that we're going to, and it doesn't mean that I don't get sad or, or, or even depressed. It doesn't mean that. We don't have crises of faith all the time. I think, in fact, in this moment, if you're not having a crisis of what is this and what is going on, you might not be in touch with actually how bad it is for so many people.
Paul - 00:42:52:
Right. People numb out, but you have to feel it.
Announcer - 00:42:55:
You have to feel it. And then, and then you can see that it doesn't have to have the last word and that, that, that that's not where all that is good and just and loving in the world is, but somewhere else.
Paul - 00:43:09:
Yeah, thank you. I would say that that prophetic energy that gets released is within you. And I appreciate you and your voice and your inspiring leadership with all the work that you do in the past, but everything coming. I have a sense of your greatness still manifesting for all of us and for our country and for all the people you're serving. So I honor your service and the potential for that transformation, that Kairosian transformation to manifest in our time.
Announcer - 00:43:42:
Thank you so much.
Paul - 00:43:43:
Have a great week.
Announcer - 00:43:45:
Yeah, me too.
Paul - 00:43:51:
It was a great honor to have Reverend Dr. Liz Theoharis on the podcast today. This is a woman of faith and a woman dedicated to justice. She focuses her efforts through the Kairos Center and is co-chair of the Poor People's Campaign and focuses on economic justice, racial justice, climate justice, gender justice across the board. She really works and shares stories of the people who are at the front line who are facing dire circumstances and struggle on a daily basis to survive. And yet they rise, they rise like a phoenix from the ashes and they take a stand for justice and they push back against the corporations and the anti-democratic forces that are hindering their ability to survive. When I got into the personal side of this, I saw from Dr. Liz that she's rooted in a deep faith in God and the spirit of Jesus and in the spirit of possibility that we together can mobilize ourselves in a moral fusion of organizing and a moral fusion movement. And we can have a survival revival. We can have a revival of moral leadership. In our country, for our country, for all the people. Who deserve it right here and right now. So best of wishes to Reverend Liz and salutations to all her great work.
Liz - 00:45:29:
Are you ready to be part of the revolution? To learn more about revolutionary optimism, please visit revolutionaryoptimism.com. To get to know Dr. Zeitz, please visit drpaulzeitz.org. And to explore building movements, please visit unifymovements.org. If you like this show, be sure to follow on your favorite podcast app so you don't miss an episode. Revolutionary Optimism, transforming the world one episode at a time.