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Medicine is not pills.
It is not injections.
It is not surgery.
Medicine restores the body.
Hosted by Sean Light, founder of Saint Bartholomew Medicine, this podcast explores what actually heals chronic pain and builds durable human performance.
Through clinical insight, lived experience, and systems-based thinking, Medicine challenges the conventional model of symptom management and replaces it with a deeper framework: rebuild the systems, and the body restores itself.
Each episode examines the foundations of real healing:
– Sleep
– Nutrition
– Strength
– Nervous system regulation
Along the way, Sean shares the stories that shaped this philosophy — from childhood headaches to performance training, from the Sistine Chapel to the symbolic meaning of Saint Bartholomew — and explains the Four Systems of Healing that guide his clinical work.
If you are done chasing quick fixes and ready to build a body that works, this is where we begin.
This is Medicine.
Untitled - July 4, 2026
00:00:00 Speaker 1: All right. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to medicine. Uh, medicine presented by Saint Bartholomew. The reason that we're calling this podcast medicine is because what I believe we do is real medicine. Uh, we're looking to restore the body back to full strength, full working order. Uh, and now there are certain there is certainly a time and a place for, for pharmaceuticals, uh, and traditional medicine. But I believe that we all actually know that what actually restores the body to one hundred percent is the simple stuff, diet, sleep, exercise. And in this podcast, that is what we are trying to explore. If anything, in this podcast here today resonates with you and you want to learn more about what we do, how we can help, go to Bartholomew dot com. Yes, we bought the domain talking about it pre-show and that is Saint, spelled out S a I n t Saint Bartholomew dot com. And we've got a whole bunch of resources out there available for you to help you get started. So that's Saint Bartholomew dot com. Now for today's special edition of the podcast, we've got, we've got a special story to share with you today. And, uh, this is somebody that I met two years ago.
00:01:34 Speaker 2: Two. Yeah, two years, two years ago.
00:01:35 Speaker 1: Okay. Uh, came through the traditional pathways, uh, into our clinic, uh, the pre Saint Bartholomew Clinic, uh, coming in with complaints about his neck. And we exhausted all of the different pathways. And we're going to, we're going to talk all about it here today. Uh, but we left off like we stopped our sessions at a certain point, which we'll talk about. And I said to him that you can't we can't talk to each other. We can't communicate until this issue is behind you. And I'll tell we'll tell the story. Uh, and, uh, I said, when it's done, when it's gone. And Daniel agreed to it that he would, we would he would give me the sickest testimonial. That's right. Of all time. Uh, and so I didn't hear from you for a couple months, three months, four months, five months. And, uh, I got a random text message on my phone. I was, I was, I was meeting with one of our coaches, uh, pops up on my phone and said, it's time for that testimonial. Yeah. So here we are. Daniel Weaver, welcome to the podcast. Uh, and this is the first client that we've ever had, uh, on the podcast. So, uh, you know, breaking, breaking new ground here. And so what I really want this episode to be is, is the entire story. I think people need to hear it. I know there's some people out there that are struggling that that are in pain and potentially haven't looked down some of these pathways. So I want to I want you to take us from the beginning. Tell us who you are and then take us from the beginning of when did things start to when did symptoms pick up for you? How did you first recognize it? What were the first options that you started traveling down? And we'll start from there.
00:03:22 Speaker 2: Awesome. Awesome. Well, Sean, obviously, thanks for having me on the show. It's been a a full circle moment. Yeah, I think both of us would agree. Um, my story is a pretty unique one, I guess for, for all the new listeners and tenured folk on this podcast, my name is Daniel. I've been a client of Sean's for over two years now. Um, and an unfortunate struggler of multitude of different pain illnesses across the board, full body from neck to toe. to, um, and I actually got pointed in Sean's direction after maybe six different, um, orthopedic sessions. Um, first symptoms started about four years ago, chronic neck stiffness in and out of chiropractic practice. Um, I was told that after three chiropractic sessions I would be good to go. Lo and behold, after four or five and six, I was continuing to go down the chiropractic route. I really didn't have a a solution in sight. So I ended up going down the orthopedic route, spinal surgeon route, um, referral after referral and ultimately got an MRI and X-ray. Both came back negative. So then you start getting a little bit worried because you're not sure which path to go towards. And finally, after years, about two years and the fourth or fifth orthopedist, um, my mom had suggested going to one more orthopedist that she had went to that suggested kind of like an alternative medicine approach. Um, and I went to him and he suggested a place or an institute called PRI, um postural Restoration Institute. And I put in as many PRI establishments as I could in the New York City area and thankfully got introduced to, to Shawn. And that's, um, ultimately how we started our path together.
00:05:22 Speaker 1: But no doubt.
00:05:24 Speaker 2: It's been a long journey and it's definitely want to help out as many people as I can.
00:05:27 Speaker 1: So expand a little bit more on the, the things that you were doing beforehand. So I think traditionally speaking, the people that come to us very rarely, I think we've got one person who is like, this was their first attempt. They've got certain they've got neck pain or something. And this is like the first thing.
00:05:44 Speaker 2: They must be nice to start that off. Yeah.
00:05:46 Speaker 1: But most people, I always make a joke. We've had people come to us after spiritual healers. And I'm just like, wow, this is where we are on the totem pole here, right? And so most people are gonna exhaust like the, the traditional methods and not that we're like super far away from traditional, but it's just not where the mind go travels to first for something like this. So talked about, talk about like the different, you know, you said you went to six different stops or something like that.
00:06:11 Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. So first and foremost, I kicked it off with an orthopedic surgeon who had suggested, um, starting off with chiropractic care, which I had never done before. And it kind of put a Band-Aid on the situation. Like I felt loose for a few days, but then it kept resurging. And, um, ultimately I kept going from like one orthopedist the next after referral over referral.
00:06:37 Speaker 1: What were they doing to give you relief?
00:06:39 Speaker 2: So chiropractic care, um, for those that aren't as familiar with it, they'll basically have you, you know, lie down on a bench and kind of press around for any sort of imbalances that that they're seeing and like kind of like crack your back, crack your neck. And that would provide a day or two of relief, which had me thinking that that was probably like the path I needed to go because it was giving me that level of relief. Um, but unfortunately, it was really only a band aid and I needed a longer, um, solution. So ultimately, um, when I was suggested to go down the PRI route, I was either going to go down the surgical intervention route where they were basically going to, um, not to get too medical, but fry a nerve in my neck to pause a nerve ablation. Exactly. To pause like the pain temporarily and see if that would solve anything. Um, but I felt that was a little bit too invasive. So I wanted to explore, like what I had called you for was the Hail Mary. And you had mentioned that that was a, you know, a frequent term.
00:07:48 Speaker 1: That.
00:07:49 Speaker 2: That you had seen. And thankfully, uh, to your advice, I didn't go, you know, down the, uh, invasive, invasive route. And here we are today, obviously that full circle moment.
00:08:01 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, uh, for those questioning, so I was wondering, pre the Postural Restoration Institute is a physical therapy clinic in Lincoln, Nebraska. It is as a journalism degree holder, this was the place. Their coursework is what I used as like what I called my bachelor's degree. So all of our science is really rooted in what they do. They're phenomenal. I love those guys out there. If you're interested in learning a little bit more about that, we have a podcast with Neil Hallinan, PRI legend, uh, that is actually coming out tomorrow as, as of recording of this. Uh, and so it's just a unique science that, uh, I think they do the best job of describing how the body works. That's always what I've said in terms of the nerve ablation. Uh, that is, a that is definitely a bit of an invasive procedure. And so like, that's really kind of the way that the traditional medicine pathways typically go is they're looking isolated at like, where's the pain? And like, what can we do? And so the ablation is saying they're trying to identify what nerve is going to be signaling it. And they're basically just frying it, right? And so they're looking specifically at that symptom and trying to just cut, cut that out. But to, to me and to our clinic, like we're looking at what is the, what is, what caused that pain to be in the, in the first place? And in our eyes, like we use our four tiers of like, what are the, you know, where did this start? And it's, is it posture and breathing is a strength and conditioning. Is it nervous system. And we're really just trying to restore all of those symptoms or those systems back and hopefully not have to go down that pathway. So we're just kind of looking at the far opposite end of the spectrum as traditional medicine. We're looking at the simple stuff versus the complex stuff. Question for you, Daniel, is where exactly were you feeling the pain?
00:09:50 Speaker 2: Ooh. Um, I would say generally pretty equitable on the left and right side, but, um, it was largely centered around my neck and upper back region. The more I, the longer I wouldn't go to chiropractic care, the more it would spread to my upper back. Yeah. But it was pretty even distribution between my, uh, like left and right side of my neck.
00:10:14 Speaker 1: And so at all the various orthopedics, what were they telling you?
00:10:19 Speaker 2: So the, the negative MRI and X-ray, um, is difficult because once you get that negative, you don't really have, you know, a path to go towards, which is pretty disillusioning for anyone, obviously going through long, long term treatment because you're almost hoping for a positive result. You have a path forward, right? Um, so the frequent one was, uh. the terminology is like upper cross syndrome, which.
00:10:46 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Vladimir Yoneda Holy smokes.
00:10:48 Speaker 2: To my knowledge, is is basically.
00:10:50 Speaker 1: That you.
00:10:50 Speaker 2: Just just poor posture, which I'm not denying. I have the best. I, you know, I don't have the best posture, but, um, I felt that the amount of pain I had was not enough just for it to be this, you know, poor postural syndrome. I knew it had to be like, you know, further degrees involved. Um, so that was definitely thrown out there. I also went to, um, a clinic that did, uh, like trigger point injections to. Yeah. Didn't really lead to, to any relief. Um, I even went down the, uh, uh, acupuncture route and I also didn't feel like much relief there. So chiropractic care was the only like short term treatment plan.
00:11:30 Speaker 1: But I remember.
00:11:31 Speaker 2: I needed a longer path to recovery.
00:11:33 Speaker 1: Sure. Okay. So, uh, quick, quick note on some of that. So that's another super commonality amongst our clients. Uh, it's called idiopathic pain. Pain of unknown origin. There wasn't a slip and fall. There wasn't a car accident. There wasn't an injury. It just kind of showed up one day. And nobody can really figure out why the X-rays came back negative. The MRIs come back negative. And even the doctors, I mean, we've we've heard I won't say I won't say it live, I'll tell you later, but we've had some doctors give like run into the dead end and like offer some really off the wall, uh, you know, treatments and stuff. So a very questionable treatments because they just kind of ran out of options. So idiopathic pain that's like, I just don't know where. No pain of unknown origin. Yeah. Okay. So you make your way into our clinic. What's the expectation? Like, what do you think? Like, what are you visualizing? What are you imagining is going to occur when you get there?
00:12:30 Speaker 2: The orthopedist that had suggested PRI also went to PRI himself for, for a different, uh, treatment plan. and the few examples that he had mentioned was he when he was doing like a physical assessment with me, he realized that my ribs were kind of partially misaligned, um, something of that nature. And he had mentioned that it's going to be like a lot of breath work and more maybe unique, versatile physical therapy offerings that, you know, aren't necessarily offered by traditional clinics. Um, so I knew that I was going to go down more of like a unique training plan, which is what I wanted to do. But, um, I was honestly in unchartered territory. So I was kind of abiding by a lot of your suggestions for sure.
00:13:20 Speaker 1: Okay. So then let's talk about that experience right away. I would say for me, like one of the things like you're coming in, I think, I think like neck pain is always one where I am a little more wary than, say, a knee. Uh, the, the knee is a pretty cut and dry deal, but the neck seems to have a lot of possible inputs. And so I think for me, like my radar was up, but there was nothing typical or, you know, there was nothing concerning really that was like jumping out at me other than the normal, uh, you know, postural dysfunctions.
00:13:53 Speaker 2: Yep, yep. Yeah.
00:13:55 Speaker 1: Uh, so let's talk about the, the beginning of the experience. That first phase is the first few phases that we were going through.
00:14:01 Speaker 2: Yep. So to kick it off, um, Sean first kind of led it with just an initial intro of who I am. Like what typical physical, uh, practices I embark in. In general, I would consider myself, you know, an athletic guy, nothing too crazy. I didn't play college or anything, but, you know, always like eagles. Yeah, exactly. Um, you know, playing high school sports. So like, I would recreationally play basketball, soccer, tennis, um, like swimming in the summer stuff of that nature. So I didn't think that I was going to have any sort of real like strength weaknesses, like from the outset. But that being said, I think the more we started speaking holistically, the more I realized that there were probably other imbalances structurally that, you know, I may not have been privy to. Um, so it kicked off with an initial assessment. Um, and from there, you kind of gave me a workout plan that we would engage with on a, on a week to week basis.
00:15:03 Speaker 1: Yep. And so we're just in my eyes, we're doing the typical stuff, right? So we're attacking the breathing mechanics. We're attacking some of the stuff that we see inside of our testing. Uh, we were training, I think we were training for sure. Yeah. Getting after it a little bit, uh, and just kind of running through a complete training program. If I remember correctly, we weren't getting anywhere.
00:15:25 Speaker 2: Yeah. I would say that about one or two months in. Um, and I honestly didn't give you any sort of help. I was being pretty, pretty stubborn in my treatment plan because, you know, this was like my last option. So I remember about one or two months in, I had asked you like, where do you think this is heading? Because I hadn't really noticed any sort of sure improvements.
00:15:46 Speaker 1: And so on my end, like that's actually super common. And that's something that we talk about in the back, you know, the back rooms in our team meetings. Because if you look at like the arc of somebody's arrival into the clinic, like the first month, like it's exciting. They're like, this is new thing. You know, he's saying the right things and they're excited about going. They get into that second month, they're kind of in the grind of it, but it's still a little fresh. Once they get over that halfway point. Now it's no longer fresh. It's no longer novel. Like, the proof's in the pudding. Now I'm either feeling better or I'm not. And you know, if they're not seeing progress, if they're not getting that result, not only are we going to run into, you know, the barriers of just what they came in with the first place, but now they're starting to the question marks are starting to arise. So I don't think that's atypical. Like that's that we see that across the board.
00:16:36 Speaker 2: Oh, definitely. Yeah. And I, I had this like chronic habit of, of frequently cracking my neck because it.
00:16:43 Speaker 1: Was yeah, I forgot about.
00:16:44 Speaker 2: That. It was a, uh, kind of the most I could equate to like self chiropractic care, if that makes sense. Um, little to, to never.
00:16:54 Speaker 1: Thankfully there's like, like memories.
00:16:56 Speaker 2: Yeah. For folks that do know me, I, uh, would constantly crack my neck habitually whenever I would feel like a twinge or a, like a stiffness or surface. And that gave me like a few seconds of relief. But, you know, I was kind of hoping one to two months in that that would just naturally subside. And I kept catching myself doing it. And that's when I was like, oh, like this. This is still something that we, uh, we need to crack.
00:17:22 Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay, so we're entering month three. So it's at, well, at that time was a three month program, correct?
00:17:26 Speaker 2: Three month program.
00:17:27 Speaker 1: So, so, so right now we're running either a four or a six. Uh, and so three months. So at the end of two, like there's only four sessions left. So now you're, now you're for sure. Right?
00:17:38 Speaker 2: I had given you kind of a deadline. Like we need to. Sure.
00:17:41 Speaker 1: I need to push back on the deadline.
00:17:43 Speaker 2: You did. And I, I think I pushed back that.
00:17:46 Speaker 1: Okay. All right. Fun times, fun times. Okay. Uh, so we're pushing on each other here, uh, going back and forth, if I remember correctly, we got to the end and and that's when I presented like that, this like other tier that I kind of had behind my back. Is that right?
00:18:03 Speaker 2: Correct. Yep. That sounds right.
00:18:05 Speaker 1: Okay. So at that time, you know, like I've been a brain geek for a really long time and I've been, I first started to notice the brain being a significant part of just the human body. I mean, obviously it's a significant part, but as a, as a coach and working in athletic performance, NBA, MLB, like you're not really concerned about the brain. You're like, how hard can this guy hit? How high can this guy jump? And when I was in pro sports, I started to notice that the behaviors of professional athletes were very unique and different than the normal person. And that's when I started to ping like, hey, maybe that, you know, such ninety percent of the NBA players behave in this way. Maybe that's not an anomaly. Maybe there's something to that that's contributing to their performance, of course, contributing to their ability to extract the most out of their out of their body. And that's where I started diving down that rabbit hole. And I would say for ten years, I was reading a lot, going down deeper and deeper and deeper, trying to understand the nervous system in quite a lot more. And what I began to develop was this theory called the neurologic neurological emergency rig. I don't think I've ever told this to you. And so what I realized was that it was based on the environment around you. It is your brain is either going to perceive it as threatening or safe. So like right now in this studio, like for you, I don't know if you've ever been in a studio like this before, but it's like a little threatening, right? There's all these cameras around the microphone, the lights are on like It's you know, who knows? Or am I going to mess up? Like there's all sorts of things that run through your mind. And so your brain's kind of weighing all that input and deciding like, is this safe or dangerous? If it perceives that it's dangerous, it's like pressing down the emergency brake of your car. So if I'm driving in my car and this is, I think most people have probably experienced this where you're driving and all of a sudden you're like, something's weird about this. It's not working, right? Like I'm getting off the line. It's a little slow. And then you realize the brake is on, you pop it, and then you're good. Now it feels it's like it's back to normal. So if the brain's perceiving danger that e brake that neurological e-brake is on. So it's like holding back what you're capable of doing. And so I started developing this theory that at some times, based on the environment, like the brain would put this e-brake down and then would turn, and then at other times it would release it and you'd have, you know, your full capacity. Great examples of this is like, if you're a weightlifter, like some days you can like, you're like really strong, right? Yeah. Versus other days where you're like, I can't, I can't do it today. And so like, what is it about those days that allowed you to be really strong? And so like at the NBA level, Like I was trying to like peak like peak maxing, right? Uh, whatever the whatever the kids are saying these days, right? I'm trying to figure out a way to get the most out of the human body. So I'm trying to identify like, how do I, how do I split those hairs? And then as I got into the pain world, I started to like, notice certain people, like I just see it in their eyes. It wasn't you weren't one of them where I could like, see it, like visually in their eyes. Sometimes you just see there's something more behind you there. Yeah. And so I started, I had a couple like breakthroughs with people where I would kind of like probe a little bit deeper and like, it would be this like crescendo or this like, like release of emotion. And all of a sudden the pain is gone, but I just wasn't comfortable enough to like, people are paying for this thing. And I've just got this like working theory here. So in like, like the actual program, I wasn't quite comfortable having somebody go through it because of that. And so Daniel gets to the end of the program and I'm like, I've done everything from a posture standpoint, a breathing standpoint, a strength standpoint, a conditioning standpoint. Like if it was one of those things, it should have moved. So I've got this other thing behind my back. That's the only other area that I haven't touched. And if I, my, my memory serves me correctly, I said like, let's have like indefinite sessions. Keep coming back.
00:21:39 Speaker 2: That's right.
00:21:39 Speaker 1: No charge. And let's work through this work through this process. What was your initial thought, feedback, thought like? What was your where did your mind go with that?
00:21:50 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I.
00:21:51 Speaker 1: How did I present it?
00:21:52 Speaker 2: I remember you had, well, first kicked it off by saying that you have some experience with, um, some of your clients reading this, this book.
00:22:03 Speaker 1: Okay.
00:22:03 Speaker 2: Yeah. Healing Back Pain by John Sarno. Um, that has equated to pretty immediate success. I do not like reading. So I was pretty.
00:22:13 Speaker 1: So I've heard.
00:22:14 Speaker 2: Pretty slow to, to pick that up though. I've been, um, I guess more prone to reading recently.
00:22:20 Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:22:21 Speaker 2: Um, and it took until my dad got a referral from one of his friends mentioning that he had read this book, Healing Back Pain by John Sarno, and that had led him to kind of going down the path of, of back recovery. Right. Um, so ultimately I started, uh, I bought the book and then you had given me, you know, an indefinite amount of sessions with, with you so that we can kind of work towards this, this, you know, full body mind connection. Right.
00:22:55 Speaker 1: Were you immediately when we're talking about this, are you like, this is ridiculous? Are you kind of just open to anything?
00:23:00 Speaker 2: No, I unfortunately probably kicked it off with some level of, um, uncertainty just because I had gone down so many traditional medical paths. I was finding it hard to believe that like there had, there was this whole other side that I still hadn't investigated. Like I was really hoping that it was just going to be, you know, this quick.
00:23:23 Speaker 1: Win, right?
00:23:24 Speaker 2: Um, but honestly, the more I started looking into the overarching like mind body connection and how, you know, recovery is important in athletes that have faced injuries in the past, I honestly started like opening my mind up a little bit more.
00:23:41 Speaker 1: Yep. Okay. So the, the basic premise healing back pain. John Sarno, uh, I came across some years ago, I had never read the book before. It was like a couple clients before you where I had basically gone down the same path. And the basic premise of the book is that his belief is that pain is manifested in the body as a way of trying to protect you from confronting an uncomfortable emotion. Is that your understanding as well?
00:24:09 Speaker 2: Correct? Yeah. And it's also kind of prefaced around a lot of people go down like this super surgical invasive route. So rather than jumping to that auto conclusion, um, you know, you have this ideology that the more you get injured, the more you think something's wrong with you. But if you're more proactive in addressing the root cause of where these injuries are deriving from, then you can avoid it in the future, if that makes sense.
00:24:37 Speaker 1: And I actually think this is pretty interesting. And even in my work, just on a day to day. Like we all know, the mind body connection exists. I don't think anybody's going to deny that. But when it comes to actually treating yourself, nobody wants to hear it. It's so it's so fascinating. And there are certain certain people who will be super open to that. And then there's people that are like really open to it. And then people that are just like, nah, I don't want to hear it. This has got to be an exercise deal. Um, okay. So you're reading the book, taking it in. What is, what is, what are we working on at this? At this point? I remember we did some goal setting.
00:25:11 Speaker 2: Stuff.
00:25:12 Speaker 1: But that was almost separate. That was like my philosophy.
00:25:14 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was kind of like a bifocal approach to this. I think there was obviously like, how were you trending in the like mind body connection realm and also just focusing on more functional exercises rather than just like static, pure like bodybuilding esque exercises. Because I think a lot of it was, um, me trying to correct my like daily operations so that I could, you know, go down this path to success. Yeah. And we were trying to like, you know, throw as many things as we can and ultimately like landed on, you know, a successful path forward, right?
00:25:51 Speaker 1: So, okay, so what's the, you know, I think that transparently, like, I think a lot of the, the frameworks, the workflows and stuff that we were doing that that was not that ultimately was not the thing that that got us here. So when did, when did you start like, what's the first like real TMS? And so that's what they call it. What is TMS?
00:26:14 Speaker 2: I think it's Gets tension, myalgia, myositis syndrome or something like that.
00:26:19 Speaker 1: I should have I should have looked that up before we before we got on here. But, uh, so TMS is like what he calls this pain pattern can show up anywhere in the body. So what is your first attempt? What's the first thing that you implement specific to TMS?
00:26:36 Speaker 2: So the first, um, sign of me recognizing like that this like was prominent and probably most people is I had a tendency to go back to my like normal workout routine, but every time I would feel a twinge or something, I would be like, oh, I probably shouldn't be doing that because it's aggravating X, Y, and Z symptom, not just for my neck, but for any, any symptom. Yeah. But the issue with that is you're kind of feeding into your mind body connection, um, negativity basically saying that like, I'm going to associate this exercise with this symptom, right? So the first course of action and it sounds simple, but it is like kind of daunting is once you feel comfortable that you get these negative X-rays and MRIs, like the most important first course of action is to one acknowledge like that this could be something that you are maybe hyperbolizing within your brain. And the second thing is just to get back to your normal routine so that you don't pull yourself away from activities that like you, you want to do. So for me, it was, I don't know, recreational basketball or working out at the gym like.
00:27:50 Speaker 1: The first one was you going back to the weight lifting program that you had been wanting to do?
00:27:55 Speaker 2: That's right.
00:27:55 Speaker 1: And now, how hard is it to say to like, ignore the symptom?
00:28:02 Speaker 2: I would say it's, it's pretty hard because.
00:28:05 Speaker 1: It's been driving your decisions for a while.
00:28:07 Speaker 2: That's right. And you're, it's the first thing you'll think about the going, going to sleep, the last thing you'll think about because you're in this context chronic state of of pain. So every time you go down this workout plan, you feel it and you almost have to acknowledge that, you know, the pain is there, but it's not going to inhibit you. Like truly. Um, so it was easier said than done, but I, I think after maybe a month or two, I felt confident enough that my traditional weight lifting program wasn't the, you know, flaw or cause for, for a lot of my pain.
00:28:42 Speaker 1: So if we look at what, what pain is, it's called nociception in the body. And it really is just an alarm bell. It can go off for a number of different reasons. One of the challenges with people who have been experiencing chronic pain is that those circuits just get chronically turned on, and it's not necessarily a sign that there's damage in the body or that you need to pay attention. It's just a sign that it's just predicting that this cycle needs to continue. I will say from a practitioner standpoint, it's a little concerning to go down the TMS route because, you know, you want to be safe. You don't want to be causing any additional damage. Yeah. I think you're like weighing the fact that you've been to you've really exhausted the traditional pathways. You've gotten clearance from a bunch of different doctors. The MRIs are negative, the X-rays are negative, and there's really no sign of injury. And so you're just kind of like throwing your hands up and saying the evidence suggests that you are not injured and that somehow this is just being manifested inside of the brain.
00:29:40 Speaker 2: Correct. Yep. Spot on.
00:29:41 Speaker 1: So you are going through your workout program. How quickly are you seeing any sort of change? You're ignoring the symptom. The symptom is coming up. How quickly are you seeing any sort of noticeable difference?
00:29:55 Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, and I would also say that you're not necessarily ignoring it. Like you don't want to like, like push the fact that it's like you're experiencing now, but you're almost just acknowledging that it's not that it shouldn't be the reason that you're not allowed to go back to your daily routines. Um, I would say that I probably started noticing that I could continue working out without that inhibiting me. Maybe two months returning into my, my normal workout plan. Now I was expecting, you know, once that happens, it's, you know, one hundred to zero pain and it was more gradual. That was the hope, obviously. But yeah, about two months in, I started noticing maybe some, some levels of success.
00:30:37 Speaker 1: Okay, so two months in, how long did our sessions continue?
00:30:42 Speaker 2: I think in total, you and I had worked together for maybe six to eight months. We were in this, um, like hybrid model for probably four months. Okay. Okay, that makes sense.
00:30:54 Speaker 1: Yeah, sure. And so two months in, you start to notice stuff. I mean, at this point in two months, in three months in what are you and I working on at this point? What are our sessions consist of.
00:31:07 Speaker 2: I think it's kind of a mix between you and I working together to identify maybe like where the, um, like pain triggers were like coming up on a day to day basis. Okay. And also. Just trending in solidified.
00:31:27 Speaker 1: For you that because I do remember, I don't remember a moment. There might have been one. But what solidified for you that this is the thing?
00:31:36 Speaker 2: Honestly, I think the more that I read the book, the more.
00:31:41 Speaker 1: You were going down, you were doing you were reading other stuff too.
00:31:43 Speaker 2: For sure. Like all, all of his work, because I, I started realizing like through all of his like patient success stories, um, because the author of the book is a, is a doctor, um, that all of their symptoms and fears for going back to, to their daily routines were pretty similar to my own, which was like, you know, you historically, um, you know, had successes in sports and you want to, you know, contribute that same level of success into, into work or into your, um, you know, athletic life. And I felt that that was like pretty synonymous with what I was hoping to accomplish. Um, but also just the constant fear of, of not recovering was like a looming threat that sounded like other patients had had experience.
00:32:32 Speaker 1: So we should definitely touch on that because I remember that being a thing with specifically work. So like when you were at work with, that's when symptoms were the dial was turning up. No.
00:32:41 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I'd say that the, the more hours I worked, the more like I would sense that level of like stiffness, um, like back pain resurging.
00:32:53 Speaker 1: And I feel like also you were, you, you told me like on weekends, like it was not nearly as bad.
00:32:57 Speaker 2: Yeah. And, and the crazy part was I, I started noticing like my symptoms alleviating on, on weekends, um, or like longer breaks, if that makes sense where you don't have as much, uh, I guess, uh, responsibility like.
00:33:14 Speaker 1: Yeah, of course. So we're just, I think you look at that and you're saying like, yeah, again, like there's no like definitive moments here, but we're just collecting all of this evidence and all of the evidence is still pushing at the very least into this brain category. Right. Um, okay. So take us, take us to the inflection point where we had you were certain that TMS is the deal. You're actually getting better. I remember, I remember like it was like a noticeable percentage. Like maybe you were saying like, I'm twenty percent better or something like that. But it wasn't like I was, we weren't like, you know, blown away by, you know, this massive, this massive improvement.
00:33:59 Speaker 2: Yeah. I would say that on average, My common pain score out of ten was maybe like a seven and a half.
00:34:08 Speaker 1: That's right.
00:34:09 Speaker 2: And I'd say that during this progression, it gradually decreased from maybe like seven and a half to a six and a half. And that is like a substantial change in pain for someone that had experienced it for so long. Um, and then maybe like a six and a half to a five and a half and like, the more that you're progressing, the more that like you have confidence that you're trending in the right direction and carrying out the appropriate activities that will like make you feel, feel better. I don't think that there was one moment that greenlit me to be like, oh, like, I think I'm one hundred percent improved because it's just a common thing. You just need to be wary of. Um, but it did. I definitely wish I had been, um, you know, pointed in, in this direction sooner because for a while pre you, like I was going down so many different paths. And how do I address this sooner? Maybe it could have, you know, healed quicker and maybe the, you know, the length with which I experienced this is how long it would take for me to recover too.
00:35:12 Speaker 1: That's a good point. So I think back to those kind of final months in that in that program. And I remember I remember I don't remember exactly what it was, but I do remember like you kept coming back to like the normal treatment stuff like you had, like you, I, I don't have it specific, but like you maybe kept coming back to corrective exercise or pry, like wanting to do things that were like normal treatment patterns and me in my head being like, like it was interesting because like, I was certainly, I probably pinged the nervous system first, but John Sarno, that's just not my work. Like we handed you this book and like it started going, going down this rabbit hole. So like, I wasn't necessarily the one that was like curing you, Yeah. But so like, I, I was kind of hands off saying, like, you know, I don't think it is any of this pure I stuff. I was curious as to why you kept coming back and, and like, and, you know, like still exploring that, like, even, even with the evidence pointing strongly to TMS and the Sarno methods, you kept coming, coming back to it. I remember just thinking like, uh, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't think he needs to be here. I don't like, I don't know what else we're going to do. Like, and then I started thinking, and then I started getting like the vibe that it was almost like a feel good for you to come back and like you had somebody to bounce ideas off of and, uh, you know, think about stuff and, you know, brainstorm over.
00:36:44 Speaker 2: Sure.
00:36:45 Speaker 1: And so we get to this, we get to this, this one session. And in my head, like, I had no idea, I had no idea. I was truly like indefinite, like, we'll just stay with this guy until we figure it out or until he's sick of me And we're at the we're having this conversation. And I remember I just like dawned on me that there's nothing left for me to teach you in order for you to if it is truly TMS, as all of this evidence suggests that it definitively is, then you can't be attached to me anymore. Like I can't be used as somebody who is of service here because like I had like this revelation that that I'm not needed anymore and which is a good thing. And so we had the, we had this conversation where I was like, you know, like, I don't think that I think this is our last session, which you agree to immediately.
00:37:43 Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:37:44 Speaker 1: And I think that the realization that you have to come to is that you never needed me in the first place. And like it was, it was it was this like intuitive moment that happened. We both like were agreed on it. And then it was like, I think maybe we kind of had a conversation like of what we're going to do the plan. And then it was we cut it off. Yeah. Give me your experience on that.
00:38:09 Speaker 2: No, one hundred percent. I think that the unfortunate reality of people that go through so many doctors is you're using the doctor as like your next step, your next plan of attack on how best to solve like an ongoing issue that you've been facing faced with for for years. Right? Um, so I think that for a while, I had viewed this as my like source of success path over path or session over session, like this is, this was going to be my path to success. Now when we were pointed down the, you know, TMS route, I had a feeling that that was probably involved, but I almost needed like the send off blessing so that I could feel comfortable that I had, you know, the mind body solutions on my own. Um, not having to use your anyone else as a crutch to, to my success, any other doctor, whatever that may be. Um, and I think I was almost like waiting for you to give me that, that green light. Yeah.
00:39:12 Speaker 1: Interesting. So I know at the time we were talking about this, this phrase that I just wrote down here, uh, and it was faith over fear. And in my mind, like inside of the brain, you can your path, the pathway of decision making goes down one of two pathways, fear or faith. And when we look at the neurological emergency brake, if you choose fear, the neurological emergency brake is on. And as long as that's occurring, you can't. If TMS is the thing, if CNS, if the if the nervous system is the thing that's in your way, if you're going down the fear pathway, it cannot work. So the only alternative is to travel down that faith pathway. So you continuing to come in as much as we enjoyed the sessions. That's a fear based mentality, right? You're saying that like, I'm a scarcity, I don't have enough. I need somebody else to help me here. And so what we're saying is that, no, you don't. Like you've got the tools, you've got everything. You're never hurt in the first place. Now you just go down that path. I've got it. We'll figure it out. It's all going to work out. And I know you and I spoke about faith over fear a lot towards the end of that. Any thoughts on that?
00:40:16 Speaker 2: Yeah. It's interesting because I, I had felt a similar like symptom years ago when I got surgery on my knee and a while after I had recovered the biggest, you know, blocker for me, getting back into soccer at the time was I was just like scared that I was going to re-injure myself or that I wasn't ready. And I felt that this was pretty similar to like, I had gotten negative MRIs, negative X-rays. So in theory I was cleared. But it's just you've pulled your yourself away from so many different activities for so long. Like you naturally are afraid to get back into that and to acclimate yourself into a normal routine. So a lot of it is, is, and it's not even blind faith, but it's going under this assumption that like, you know, your body will be able to, to handle something that like you have felt like you couldn't handle for so long. And the more you demonstrate that it hasn't negated your progress, like the more I went to the gym, I was like, okay, maybe we can take another step, increase weight, like go down this path that I hadn't been in so long. Um, so that, uh, motto was definitely like a solid reminder of, of, you know, what I could have been using. Sure. Uh, now and for the future too.
00:41:32 Speaker 1: So we are, we, we have this conversation and right in the beginning of our time working together, Daniel says to me that if I'm if I can figure this thing out, he's going to give me the best testimonial. That's right. Uh, of all time. So here we are. And so I remember saying and remember thinking, and this was like a leap of faith for me too. Like I was a little nervous about this. Yeah. But I remember saying, you've got to go. You've got to go do it. You can figure it out. You've got the tools. You can't, I can't, you cannot text me. You're going to call me. You cannot email me. And again, like I was just trying to like cut it off. So it's on you. You travel down that taking the leap of faith. And I said, you can't text me until you are. It's all behind you and you're ready to give me that testimonial. And we went cold, like Zero Dark thirty.
00:42:19 Speaker 2: I think between three to four months.
00:42:21 Speaker 1: Yeah. So what happened during those three to four months?
00:42:24 Speaker 2: Yeah. So a lot of it was me continuing to demonstrate to myself that I could do X, Y, and z. Um, but also it was not not feeling like if I had felt a neck twinge that it was coming back and that I was like going down like a regressive path again. So I was feeling confident enough that even if a symptom did arise, I wasn't backtracking and I wanted to not reach out to you until I felt confident, because I was worried that if I reached out to you in one month and then it resurged again, I was like, oh man. Like, maybe I wasn't ready. And I wanted that like epiphany moment for you too.
00:43:00 Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:43:01 Speaker 2: After all the time we worked together. So, um, a lot of it was a mix of just getting back into my normal routine, um, being optimistic towards that path for success. And I think we were always driving towards like one solution on how I would know, like I did it.
00:43:19 Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:43:20 Speaker 2: That's right. And for me, I had my brother's wedding that was approaching and I wanted to make sure that I was kind of pain free for the wedding and ultimately had the wedding crushed my best man speech.
00:43:32 Speaker 1: Let's go. We still need the video.
00:43:33 Speaker 2: That's right.
00:43:34 Speaker 1: And, uh.
00:43:35 Speaker 2: And that for me was, was really what I needed to come back to you and be like, hey, like the time that we had spent together was for this, this moment, right? And I had remembered thinking to myself that when I was going to green light this for you, my two options were either going to be me sending you the best man speech in context or saying, um, are you ready for that testimonial? And hence, you know, here we are.
00:44:01 Speaker 1: I remember the text came through and I looked at my phone just quickly and I was like, no way. Uh, so that was, that was awesome, man. And it was, it was obviously super grateful for, for, for you being here and you following through on the, uh, on the, on the testimonial and even kind of going the extra mile on that. Uh, what I'd like to finish up with is where we're at now. And so you come in after the, after the testimonial or not after testimonial, but like, after we, we reconnect. Uh, and now something else is, is, is surfacing. Uh, tell us about that.
00:44:40 Speaker 2: Yeah. So similarly, Um, outside of just chronic neck pain. I've also had chronic knee pain too. Um, I had a procedure done my senior year of college to, uh, you know, fix an ailment on my right knee. Um, and I felt like a similar symptom on, on my left knee surface. Um, and I started going down again, the, the traditional medicine route is what I would call it, right? Traditional orthopedics, um, in and out of physical therapy. I went for the first time, maybe about a year and a half ago.
00:45:20 Speaker 1: Okay.
00:45:21 Speaker 2: And MRIs came back negative on, on that X-rays negative. But in this case, because there wasn't a chiropractor, I found a different path to like short term band aid recovery, which was just the cortisone injections. Right? And that was helping, but I wasn't sure if it was because I had a ton of inflammation or if like, there was an actual injury that it was pointing to. Yeah. Um, ultimately, because the negatives, the MRIs came back negative, I wasn't sure what path to go. And they had suggested a diagnostic arthroscopy, which is basically going into your knee, seeing what's there and removing something if it is bad. Yeah. Um, but any time you hear the word surgery, right, you obviously want to get as many. Yeah. Get as many opinions as you can. And this time I was a little bit more proactive in seeking you out again because of our experience and time together. Um, the difference between my, my right knee and left knee was my right knee actually came back with a positive result my senior year. This time it came back as negative. So I wasn't sure if maybe something was hidden in the MRIs and X-rays. But, um, this time I had a feeling that it could be, uh, you know, a similar TMS instance.
00:46:39 Speaker 1: Did you actually.
00:46:41 Speaker 2: I mean, that's why I called you, asking if there was any, because.
00:46:44 Speaker 1: We didn't.
00:46:44 Speaker 2: Jump down related.
00:46:46 Speaker 1: Pathway right away.
00:46:47 Speaker 2: Not right away. Because, again, I always think that TMS is like the second or third option.
00:46:53 Speaker 1: You were a little resistant to it being TMS when I brought it up.
00:46:57 Speaker 2: Honestly, I think.
00:46:58 Speaker 1: Were you just like, oh God.
00:46:59 Speaker 2: I was, I was, I didn't want to go down that path again.
00:47:02 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:47:03 Speaker 2: Um, and I honestly don't think that there's a lot of TMS candidates towards the knee.
00:47:08 Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:47:09 Speaker 2: So that's why I had asked you, had you experience anyone having like any similar TMS symptoms on the knee? And I think I was one or two maybe.
00:47:18 Speaker 1: Yeah. The knee is usually a pretty cut and dry and you actually had like biomechanically there's like your knee is does things that it shouldn't. So like when I saw it, I was like, yeah, okay, that's pretty obvious.
00:47:27 Speaker 2: Right? And I, I think there's probably some elements of, of maybe like structural deficiencies on my hips. Like we pointed that out. I'm not denying that that like does not exist. But, um, that's currently the path that you and I are still working on. So it's definitely a a more optimistic path than than going down experimental surgery.
00:47:47 Speaker 1: So just a little more context there. So we were, we went down the, the traditional pathway again, right? Like for the knee, like there's some really cut and dry things that you can do and you should do to, to start it. But if you're, if you're correct on assuming there's no structural damage, which again, the everything was coming back negative, then you should feel relief like immediately, like now, like once we finish the, you know, the soft tissue technique or the, you know, postural technique, like you should feel better right away. And we were not getting that. In fact, after our first session, like there was a flare up, right? Right. And so the really, the big thing that pushed us over the edge was you went skiing.
00:48:27 Speaker 2: Correct.
00:48:28 Speaker 1: And it was fine.
00:48:29 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, skiing is the most knee dominant thing that like I can think of. Yeah. Um, and I was pretty apprehensive. I skied with a brace on and I skied the whole weekend, um, like little to no, uh, like relapse, for lack of a better word, that actually wasn't the like aha moment. I remember telling you that I had gone skiing and like, it was probably a piece of evidence that you were using. But honestly, for me, it was just like, I could go ski. I can't do X, Y, and Z. Yeah.
00:49:02 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, for me, I think it was like, I think we just sped up the timeline. Like I remember like, so we sit down at the end of our days and we go over the clients and we talk about, you know, what was coming up and like, are we getting better? Are we getting worse? Are we staying the same? Where are we at? Uh, and like, for us, it was like, okay, like maybe a month deep and the knee hasn't gotten better, which is unusual for a knee. The knee is usually pretty quick and we're just sitting there chatting and it's like, you know, he has this history of TMS. Could it be? And then we're like, we're starting to go back and forth. And then we start, you know, he went skiing like he went skiing. Right. And I think that I don't think we almost came to the realization together that, like, again, all of the evidence suggests that this is coming back. This is resurfacing again. That's right. And so we went down that pathway again and again. The pathway was not necessarily biomechanical or corrective exercise. It was getting back to the routine. I remember you saying that. I remember asking like, hey, like, what did you do the last time? You're like, I just got back to my routine. And if my memory serves me correctly, you are. You got back to playing basketball fairly quickly ish.
00:50:11 Speaker 2: So I'm still honestly going down that path of recovery. I even telling you that I need to not be apprehensive. Like I am apprehensive to play basketball. But the first step for me was going back to traditional leg strengthening exercise. I had pulled myself out of that because every time I would do it, I would have knee pain. So I was like, I'm going to hold off on this until like I I go see Sean or go down like another orthopedic route. Yeah. Um, so that's what I've been doing, getting back into leg exercises, which has been helpful. Definitely getting back acclimated into, into basketball. And I think that for me is like what I need to do to, to feel comfortable that like it is like TMS in its entirety. But I, I've effectively like want wanted to rule out going down the surgical route. And that's what's like giving me, you know, some optimism here, if that makes sense.
00:51:04 Speaker 1: And then we'll, we'll get out there and play one on one.
00:51:06 Speaker 2: That's right. Exactly. I don't know how fair that'll be, but we'll see.
00:51:10 Speaker 1: Um okay. So the last thing I want to close with is look. There are a lot of people out there that are in the exact same position where they have tried everything. Uh, they're, I mean, they're listening to a podcast about chronic pain, right? So they're really, they're, there now in the self exploration phase, like trying to look for alternatives. I think it's always difficult to, to when you when we talk about TMS, when we talk about the brain to start thinking about this pathway, it's, you know, I've always felt it was a little disrespectful to be like, yeah, dude, this might be in your head. And so I've always been a little cautious about going down that pathway. But quite clearly for some people, the origin is the brain is the nervous system is this complex system that exists to create pain, to create sensation, to create emotions, to deal with life. So for the people out there, you know, what do you what's what's your advice? What do you, you know, what's your message? What do you for somebody out there in a similar position, what do you what do you what do you tell that person?
00:52:22 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd say that the first piece, which is like hard to swallow for a lot of people. The first piece is that the pain is definitely very real, right? It's not like you're fabricating that level of pain. And I almost think that a lot of times it's the pain is real because of how much your, your, your brain is creating that level of like inflammation internally. Right. Um, the most important factor is you need to be confident that you will, you will get better. And it's so tough to appreciate. I'm like super stubborn person and it's tough for me to, um, you know, admit a lot of those things. But I think that that was the first like, confirmation I needed to have with myself is that you, you will get better. Um, I think the more you know about the mind body connection, the more you'll start to realize that there is a road to recovery.
00:53:21 Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:53:22 Speaker 2: Um, and the sooner that you believe the mind body connection, the sooner that you will be able to take advantage of that recovery. So I think it's a mix of faith over fear and confidence. Optimism. Um, and take it from someone from, you know, four years of chronic pain, um, in and out of doctors. I had written out a lot of hope. Uh, just having that level of hope is, is what will give you that, that confidence.
00:53:51 Speaker 3: Yeah. Huge.
00:53:52 Speaker 1: Uh, I'm gonna, we're gonna wrap this podcast up with a story. I don't know if I've told you this. I might have, uh, but around the same time that we were, we were kind of going back and forth and like, just starting to experiment with the John Sarno stuff. Uh, I had never read the book myself, so I was kind of simultaneously reading it and trying to understand like, what his philosophy was so that I could be in the know and be able to have these conversations with you. And one day I had the cleaners come over my apartment to, to clean. And I always ask them to clean my office first. And so they do that and I start playing video games in the meantime. And so one thing led to another. I ended up playing video games for like three or four hours. Right? And I'm feeling embarrassed about myself. I'm feeling ashamed. Like I'm not a hard worker. Like, you know, I position myself as this big, fancy entrepreneur. And here I am playing video games for four hours on a Tuesday or something like that. So I set the I'm like, I decide that tomorrow is going to be different. I'm getting up six a m going to the gym. I'm starting over. Uh, and so I do that, I get up and I'm like, this man on a mission. And I end up getting back to my room after my workout and I get pull out my notebook and I go to write down my, my goals get started for the day and I can't see. And I've got these like, like worms that kind of like these squigglies in my line of my line of sight. And I've had this before and it's what it is, is it's like the beginning of an ocular migraine where I just have these like visual symptoms, no pain. And eventually it, it subsides. And then in comes like the worst migraine of my life. And every time I've ever had this, like my day is over. Like it is a race to get in bed, race to get to sleep before the pain sets in. Otherwise, like I'm. I'm in big trouble. It's gonna be an awful, awful day. But on this day, it was a Wednesday, and I had like a like six clients scheduled. And I had this thought in my head if, if I'm gonna push this John Sarno stuff, this TMS stuff on people, then a, what would he say? And B, what do I do? And so I would say, he would say, and he actually talked about this at the end of his book. I don't know if you remember, he said like, you know, ocular migraines, migraines are part of this. So he would say, you've got to go through it, that it's a fake wall, right? It's like a, it's like a curtain. It's a, it's a mirage. And so I was like, if you're going to do this, you've got to go through it. Right? And I said, if this is correct, this is going to be the I kept telling myself this. If this is correct, this is going to be the best day of your life. So I put sunglasses on. I was like, August. It was like super hot. I go on the bus, I'm in the Lincoln Tunnel. I'm like, Josh, there was no place to sit. I'm like jostling back and forth. I was gonna throw up inside the Lincoln Tunnel, eventually get into the Port Authority, get onto the subway. I'm thinking, I'm gonna throw up on the subway. I'm in terrible shape, and the whole time I'm just imagining myself getting to my office and the first client comes in, she starts doing her exercises, and all of a sudden I'm feeling euphoric. I end up getting to my office. Zero relief. I'm feeling so bad. I go to the back room, crank the air conditioning. I'm pacing back and forth, sweating with my sunglasses on my nose. I don't, you know, know him in the other office. He comes in, he's like, how you doing? I'm like, great, I'm feeling so bad. And I keep imagining myself. I'm like, I keep telling myself faith over fear. Like I was like, I have this opportunity to still cancel my sessions. But I was like, you got to go through it. You got to go through it. You got to go through it. And eventually my client walks in the, the, you know, the doors open. She says, how you doing? I'm like, great. No relief. I'm not getting any better. She finally goes down to do her like ninety, ninety hip lift. And as soon as she got down there, it was like somebody took a needle to my head and the pressure started to slowly leave. And probably within like an hour, hour and a half, it went from ten out of ten bad to like I was feeling amazing. And so my. In true TMS fashion, it's got to be. You've got to convince yourself like it's got to be. You've got to really believe it, right? You've got to really go down that faith over fear pathway. And it's not about like, I think he sometimes talks about like letting the emotion like wash over you and like letting it let not blocking it. That's not enough. Sometimes like what you're saying is like you're providing the evidence, you're going through that curtain, you're going through that wall, and you're proving to yourself that this is exactly what that is. And in that moment with that headache, that's exactly what I was doing as well. So just from my end, I've got some some personal stake in that as well. I've seen it work for, for myself. And, uh, it's, uh, it's, I'm definitely a believer now. And it is something that we're, we're working with people immediately. Now we've got an assessment that we, we do on the very first session to see if we can kind of ping that on our radar. And that's, of course, thanks to you and the other folks who've come in, as, you know, kind of showing us the showing us the light on that. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. Daniel, thank you so much for being here. I mean, genuinely thank you. Truly the first client to be here. And I appreciate you taking the time. I know it's late and on a Monday.
00:58:37 Speaker 2: Thank you guys. I mean, I'm the one that, uh, you know, struggled with pain and you guys have me in this position.
00:58:43 Speaker 1: My man. Uh, guys, we have a lot of resources on the brain and the nervous system and all sorts of different things about pain, the nervous system, the brain, this kind of stuff is the thing that I'm most passionate about. It's the thing I can't stop thinking about. I think about it all the time. I even have to tell myself to stop writing about the brain, because there are other areas of the of pain that we've got to address. But so we've got a lot of resources out there to, to help you. If you think that this might be you, go to w w w dot Saint bartholomew dot com, spell it out, S a I n t at Saint bartholomew dot com. We've got a whole bunch of resources there. You can always reach out, ask questions. We're here to help. Daniel Webber, thank you so much, my friends. And until next time.