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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite you to take
a moment, a moment in this day, a
day filled with opportunity, a day
filled with expectations, but most
importantly, a day full of invitations.
As you breathe in and as you breathe
out, I invite you to take a pause
to look at all the invitations.
We may start with thought invitations.
Noticing where we go, where our mind
brings us, breathing in and breathing out,
encouraging you at this moment to pivot
to what is the spiritual invitations,
what is alive in your spirituality,
breathing in and allowing it to
be present as you breathe out,
watching the wonder of invitations.
Simply start to scan your body.
Maybe it's a subtle movement.
Maybe it's a desire to
engage in more stillness.
What is your body inviting
you to be aware of?
Taking this breath and turning
to your emotional heart.
Allowing the emotional
space to be invited in.
One breath,
one breath out.
Watching all the invitations coalesce
No, then they do not
need to be expectations.
These invitations are allowing you to
consentfully choose what feels right.
Taking one final breath in,
taking a final breath out.
And at your pace, at your rate, when
you feel called, opening your eyes to
see the room, and most importantly,
to see yourself a little differently.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of the
Psychedelic Psychologist, where I
invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics,
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression, to finding
wholeness and spiritual emergence.
Today, I pause.
With this wonderful invitation,
paying a moment of gratitude and deep,
humble excitement, I get Mark Mark.
Welcome, how are you coming in today?
I'm doing really well.
How are you?
It's good.
Thanks for asking.
I'm grounded.
I feel centered.
I've been really working on
the idea of invitations and the
opportunities of looking and listening.
What comes to your mind when
I talk about invitations, what
manifests in your awareness?
Oh, invitations.
I don't know.
I just like the first word
that came to mind was vitality.
So if life is bringing, , life is.
bringing you a variety of invitations.
If you're living a vital life and not
dysregulated, , like I have been
most of my life, then you have
ample opportunities to choose.
I love that.
That's really beautiful.
You said something important to me is this
idea of dysregulation versus vitality and
hearing your personal reference to having
been dysregulated and sitting today.
What are you acknowledging about
your regulating system and your
nervous system and who you are based
off of your work with medicine?
Well, it's been a transformation.
Transcription
in our work together, you know, you
know that I've had a pretty, I would say
miserable childhood that extended well
beyond into early adult and middle years.
And just, I tried all sorts of
traditional therapy and, learned a
lot of concepts, but the anxiety and
the depression just never lifted.
And then taking,
antidepressants or anti
anxiety medication.
That really just only sort
of masked what was going on.
So,
yeah, it was and now, with
the work that I've done with
psychedelics, it's been, again,
it's been transform, transformative.
It's, I mean, it's not like I have
arrived, you know, one never arrives.
Right.
But my ability, My favorite
word, I think, of all
buzzwords that you use, and I shouldn't
say buzzwords, these are actual words
that have incredible depth and meaning
in our work to get together, but one
of my favorite ones is metabolize.
I mean, I'm able to metabolize my
emotions, my stress, my anxiety.
Just in a completely different way than
than I did before, which before I mean,
I wasn't Metabolizing them at all.
I was resisting them.
I was resisting them.
That's wonderful.
And without putting the cart
before the horse, Mark What was
your invitation to psychedelics?
How did that unfold for you?
Were you looking for it as you were
going through classical therapy or
did it kind of manifest on its own?
It manifested on its own.
I think I've always been well,
I've never been satisfied with
With what was going on, I was
just, I was continuing to suffer.
And so I came across a YouTube video
about a woman who micro dosed LSD
and she And that had alleviated,
I think, some of her depression.
And I was like, wow,
what, this is news to me.
And so I was talking about it with some
friends who also have used psychedelics
and So I started experimenting with that.
And I tried different things.
And the one that best
worked for me was MDMA.
But what was interesting
was, is that the MDMA,
when I first took it,
yeah, great experience.
But after everything kind of, when
I came back to and my, my conscious
mind came back on, I was still sort
of in the same spot, and I realized.
Although it felt a little different,
so I knew I needed to seek out
somebody who would understand this
and by serendipity Here you are,
in the same city as I am
and it's just like Rick.
This is awesome So I came to see you
because I needed to talk about it.
I didn't understand what was going on
This is an important aspect to keep going.
Yeah.
No, well just that so well, no you go
ahead Well, what I love about what you're
addressing and I want to take a moment.
You found MDMA through your own spiritual
journey as I understand it and recall
is because Living with antidepressants
and anti anxieties you were incapable
of using MDMA So one of the things I
want to honor in you and without going
at fast is your fucking vigilance
your your Devotion to yourself of
not giving up of wanting to heal and
know there was something different.
So you did get off your medications on
your own with the help of a provider
and tapering it in order for you to
simultaneously heal yourself and that
was that was wisdom and that was Effort
I can imagine that's not easy to do.
I Appreciate and I accept what
you're saying and thank you.
Yeah, that's that's
received It was wasn't easy.
It wasn't easy and perhaps
I'm a glutton for punishment.
I don't know
Because look, I mean, look how I, so
what I'll, what I'll connect here is,
is that then when I came to see you,
you were, we were fleshing this
all out and you were saying,
well, on your MDMA experiences,
what are the emotions that are coming up?
You know, are there any, you know,
Emotions of sadness or anything like that.
And I, and I said, sure.
I said, cause you were talking
about, you know, how do you really
integrate and get into those emotions?
And, and I said, sure, I'm experiencing
sadness, but I don't want to wallow in it.
And you had this look on your
face, I distinctly recall.
And it was just like,
something's not, something's
not computing here for this guy.
And I think it clued
you into the fact that.
I was, while I was still experiencing,
you know, how it is with MDMA, these
rolling emotions and, and sort of
you know, constriction and just, I
like to view it as energy, as, as
you're rolling through, but you clued
into the fact that I was resisting
and I was clamping down on this.
So you introduced me to, and I'm going to
butcher his name, Is it Levine or Levine?
Either Levine, yeah.
Yes, in his theory of somatic
how the body stores trauma, basically.
And so I picked up that book and read it.
And at first I was
like, this sounds really
dippy dippy.
I'm not getting it, but because of how I
approach things kind of scientifically,
I think what, what really helped was
that when he was describing it as energy.
That I could grasp onto as a
concept and it was like, oh my
god, okay So emotions are energy.
This trauma is energy.
I don't fully understand his
theory, but it's like, okay This is
something I can actually work with.
And then there was this recognition
where it was like, oh my gosh I think I
have been resisting all this Now, come
back as far as we are now here, and I'm
reading up on Jung, and, and you know,
I'm, I'm reading all sorts of stuff,
and seeing how it what I resonate with.
And one thing that Jung said was,
whatever, whatever you resist persists.
Well, that just hits me right there,
because it's like, that has been
most of my story as far as around my.
Depression and anxiety.
So, I can let you kind of go now.
This is fundamental because you are
saying two or three different things
that I want to really highlight.
And one of them is your consent.
So, We've known each other for
eight years and you were picking
up things and recognizing things
with some of your own discernment.
Number two, what you're addressing is
there's an evolution to the psychedelic
work and what you're poignantly
articulating is I was at one place and
I'm moving towards another place in
transformation and it's not a linear path.
It's really kind of sidewinding and
unless we're open to these experiences.
To your point, not resisting them, we're
then capable of at least holding them.
Right, right.
So, please.
Go ahead.
It's just really remarkable because
we have to, we in a way have
to surrender to what's present.
And then what I'm hearing you say, and
it's really important, is have an ally.
Like you and I have built a
deep therapeutic alliance.
That feel safe to you.
Can you speak more about that?
What, what, what does it provide you
to know that you have a safety within
a place to kind of bounce ideas off of,
or to your point, feel safe enough to
talk about these magical experiences?
Well,
I don't know.
I mean, it was serendipitous
to begin with it.
You were having your practice here
in Minneapolis, but then there's
an extra serendipity where it's
like, upon first meeting, I just
felt a spiritual connection to you.
I think a lot of your patients
probably feel that way because I
think it's just the way you are.
You are so gentle.
And so, um, you just hold space
in just such a wonderful way.
So that was critical.
And what was the other part
of the question that you had?
Yeah, just what, what does it
give you by having that safety?
What, what does it provide you to then?
Oh, well, just it provides the
freedom and the non judgment and
no shame to explore all of these.
What's the emotion, what's alive
in you when you say that, that
you have just, just, just joy,
joy and happiness and feeling
accepted and loved and loved.
Did I hear Mark say what I love?
I'm getting better at that.
Say, and how are you?
What are you, what are you
acknowledging about loving oneself
and getting deeper into validation?
Oh, well, it's,
well, so much of the, I'll tie it in
with the MDMA, and that is, And I do
want to say one other thing about that.
So don't forget, but I'll just,
I'll just say that the progression
through, let me just say it quickly
this way, and then I'll answer both
the progression through my MD MDMA
experiences were it was, first, like,
it was like kind of learning how to
ride a bike or lift weights, actually.
I mean, the beginning was just like
tortuous because it, it's, it just
unlocked sort of the valve that I
had been, had tightly, you know,
turned that clamped everything down.
And then it was just like wave after
wave after wave after wave and for me to,
so it wasn't all, you know, bliss.
It was, there was a fricking
lot of work on my part, just,
just having to surrender to it.
every emotion that came up, do the
breathing, which I'm so thankful for,
but it was like, that's what I had to do.
And then subsequent
MD, MDMA experiences, really,
I started tapping into self
compassion and self acceptance
and that kind of, that kind of love.
And so I've also kind of gone from
being a nihilist to sort of this
spiritual awakening, but I don't know
where it's going to go and that's okay.
I'm totally fine and
surrendering to the mystery.
Huh.
That's my favorite.
I know you're smiling
and I appreciate that.
I love when you articulate where.
I was, as a nihilist, and I
can empathize to this spiritual
emergence and this awakening, right?
That provides so much opportunity.
Totally.
Where do you, and speak to me about
that confidence of the unknown, because
that's what I really love that you just
capped that statement off of, is that
there's a spiritual awakening that I
don't need to know what's going to happen.
How do you live within that?
I, I actually, I actually prefer
to live in, I love appreciating,
well, it's odd that I'm saying this, but,
well, let me say it this
way throughout my life.
I've always appreciated the
paradoxes of life, okay.
And sort of these unanswered, unanswerable
questions and yes, in my youth, you know,
when you've got more vigor and more.
Ego you you like every generation you
pick up these unanswerable questions.
You think well I'll try to solve it
and I I'll bet you I can whatever you
wrestle with it And then you realize
ah, yes the wisdom of the ages.
You just can't wrestle you can't we can't
answer these questions You learn I think
with wisdom that you Appreciate these
paradoxes and you sit gently with them
And so with the spiritual emergence,
so I think that's actually helped me to
now Have a perspective on the spiritual
emergence right where it's like I
don't have to know the capital T truth.
That's beautiful because it is
living in the paradox, right?
I think that's what psychedelics
gets us very comfortable with.
I know for myself, and I see the
recognition reflex, can you speak about
the confidence and comfort psychedelics
provides within the paradox for you?
Yeah, because it's,
yeah, it's I don't know how to really
put it into words, but it's like
for those who have had really those
who have had psychedelic experiences
where you really have treated it
sacredly as opposed to recreationally,
you just absolutely surrender
yourself to the whole process.
And of course, you know, the ego
dissolves and then as the medicine
wears off and as you integrate.
These experiences after the, your,
um, use of it, then the ego starts
to kind of come back online and it's
like that, that can be fun, that can
be torturous and there are times where
you think, Oh yeah, I get it now.
Oh, but then it like, no, something
else comes and it's just like, and.
It's like a river, you know,
with rivulets and turbations.
And it's just like, I'm really now
finally getting at the point where
it's just like, okay, I'm just
going to just float down the river.
Thank you.
That's gonna hit so many people so many
different ways and reassure them And
I appreciate it Mark because it is if
we can float down the river know that
we're within a container Know that we
have a system right, so unpacking this
metaphor that much more is that knows
when it's time to like Maybe steer.
Yep.
He still let the current take us.
Yes, exactly.
Yes.
Can you tell me, because one of the
things I really admire about you is your.
Insight and listening to when it's
time to do another ceremony, and when
it's time to do deeper integration.
How do you play with that subject
matter, that paradox once again?
Knowing that it might be more
integration is needed, or what are the
signs within your system of awareness
that says, Oh no, I've taken this as
far as I can, and it looks like it's
time for me to do another ceremony.
Oh, that's a great question.
It's a great question.
And it's it's, it's,
it's probably mysterious.
It's like, you know, how
does, how do you come to that?
I
each of my experiences
obviously have been different.
And but they've all built on one another.
So you use the wonderful analogy
about climbing up the mountain, and
you got to go up the mountain and
then you got to come back down and
acclimate your body has to acclimate
and then you can go up further the
next time and then come back down.
Right.
The
I think for me, it's, In particular,
this last MDMA experience that I
had, which was really quite magical.
I have been able to metabolize really some
stressful situations with family and work.
And just amazingly well,
and so I feel really strong.
And so I've been able to
kind of push it out further.
That's beautiful.
Now I'm three months out and it's getting
a little bit more difficult to tap into,
I don't know, that space or whatever.
But I don't want to, actually
I think, I think it's good.
It's just making me.
It's making me work the muscle more.
Well, that's what I appreciate about you.
And I'm so grateful you're
putting it into words because.
You're taking it and stretching it out.
I often will just say it's right at
the juncture where yeah There could be
a space as you know, I talk about it
seasonally often like every four months
Quarterly, whatever but what I'm really
really excited listening to you is okay I
know there's room for it But I also know
there's room for me to do my own energy
and my own effort And I think ultimately
that's my goal is we're not guaranteed.
We're gonna have MDMA or psilocybin or
any kind of psychedelics as we get older
or even transition and so I went by that
yeah, thank you like Transition into
death or the next paradigm like right?
So right so and you know my love affair
with that is this idea of well I want to
really integrate my whole system without
this Oh, it's time to just get centered.
Let's do some MDMA.
Right.
But what is your, is there a concern
for you, for someone who, cause my idea
right now is like, I mean, I'm looking
at this, like, this is something that I.
No, I believe you would need every
six months for the rest of my life.
That's what I do.
And so no, and I'm not just a hair club.
Okay.
I'm also a member, right?
I, I believe in this idea
of using the medicines.
I believe intimately in using them
every six months, every quarter.
I, I prescribe to it myself.
What I would say to the person is,
and that's why I really love circling
back around this conversation.
Is have I done all my integration
and do I still need support, right?
Like, do I feel calibrated?
Do I feel like I have a hair
trigger emotional reaction to
things that I shouldn't be?
I would prescribe the mat.
I would say, let's get on
the mat and do some work.
But if it's just like, Oh, I'm
just like becoming passive.
That's the question I always
intentionally ask of myself is am I
passively going into these ceremonies
or am I actively honoring them?
Because if I feel like I'm passive,
then I might be overusing the medicines.
What do you make of what I just said?
I saw some recognition.
Just that I well, I, I, It's intention,
you know, I mean, if you don't have
an intention and you've, you've taught
me this, you know, you have to do the
prep work, you have to have intention.
And my intention is
always about, you know,
one, do I, well, what do I need?
And then two, do I really need this?
Can I do this on my own?
Or is it something where I
just, this is now I really need
to have another experience.
Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, this has been a
wonderful conversation.
What are you doing to
be gentle with yourself?
I am
just focusing on my breathing being
gentle Being mindful if the weather
were warmer, I would be out walking,
so yeah, that's what I'm doing.
Minus two isn't sometimes the easiest
place to be at, but it definitely
brings you back to presence, doesn't it?
Yes, it sure does.
Tell me, tell me as we close,
what do you owe this Experience
the medicine experiences.
What would you say encapsulates
your homage to finding this
path with psychedelics?
I'm sorry.
I didn't understand the
question and the worries.
Let me rephrase the question what would
you say to yourself seven, eight, nine
years ago, pre psychedelic experiences?
What would you tell yourself?
I've said that it's transformative
one thing I wanted to mention was
is that you know We had talked about
the how incremental the journey is.
Yes, please And I think we had joked
about it, or you had joked about
it, and to say that if you had told
me at the beginning, Here we go.
Well, this is gonna be, this is not a
magic kill, which is, which is what I
had originally thought it was gonna be.
Right, you're gonna still be
talking to me ten years later?
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, this is just something
I just picked up.
You know, pick up from my friends and
then just everything's fine and hunky
dory and I don't have to work on any
of my Proverbial, you know what and
so and if you had so you said if I
had told you what I have gone on this
journey And it's a great question.
I don't know.
I don't know if I would have
I think I would have because
I had no alternatives and there
is something about my makeup where
it's just like well screw it Let's
let's do this and see what happens
And that's what I honor about you.
Thank you.
And I honor you because you've
been along with me on this journey.
Thank you Always it's my pleasure.