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Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: Brand Nerds, Brand Nerds, Brand Nerds. Oh, it's so good to be back. Our first show after summer hiatus, and I, I, I, I'm just, like, bursting with energy, LT, to start this new season. Mm.
LT: Yeah, we, we, we missed the show terribly, Brand Nerds. We, we, DC and I, when we were first coming on, we were like, "Oh, we're back."
Yes. We really, uh, we really enjoy doing this so much, so we thank you for your listenership and viewership, and, uh, we can't g- wait to get to this one, right, D?
DC: That's right. That's right, LT. We miss you Brand Nerds. We, we don't miss just doing the show.
LT: Yeah.
DC: We miss you Brand Nerds very much. So, uh, Brand Nerds, you know the name of the show is Brands, Beats & Bytes.
That's the podcast. And it's connected to the name of our, our practice, which is Brand Positioning Doctors. Note the middle word there, Brand Nerds. We have a belief in our, uh, in our world, and our belief is this: all the great brands have one thing in common, at least one thing in common, and we think it's the most important thing, and that is they have a sharply defined positioning.
You know exactly what the great brands stand for. Even if you don't use them or like them- Yep ... you still know what they stand for. Our second belief is that if there's a problem that's systemic in the brand and business, 99% of the time you can drop some breadcrumbs from that problem and take it right back to positioning, a murky positioning, a positioning that people don't understand or know.
It's a positioning problem, typically. And on our first show back after hiatus, LT, we happen to have another positioning expert in the building, so much so that like us, the word positioning is also in the name of what she does. LT, can you tell the peoples who we have the auspicious opportunity to begin our season with on Brands, Beats & Bytes?
LT: What a great preface, D. That's a great kickoff here, and neither one of us, dare I say, have a positioning problem because it's right in the name. Mm-hmm. So DC, we have Krista Patterson in the house today. Welcome, Krista.
Krista Patterson: Thank you so much. I think I'm a positioning geek, maybe. Brand nerd-
LT: Oh, I like that.
DC: Oh, I like that positioning geek both. That's good.
LT: You're onto something there, Krista. You're onto something. Okay, brand nurses, DC said we are so excited to be back from summer hiatus, and we are kicking things off with a fellow brand positioning specialist, Krista Patterson, currently co-founder and CEO of Positioning Collective.
DC: What, what's the name of the company again? When, what's the name? One more time. I didn't get it. I missed it. Can you please repeat?
LT: Positioning Collective.
DC: Thank you, Larry. Thank you.
LT: So okay, DC, Krista, Brand Nerds, you know as we do, we have to walk you through Krista's wonderful path. All right, so she grows up in the Bay Area, working numerous jobs as a kid, including as a florist in San Jose and a DJ at a roller rink.
I love that one.
DC: Ooh. Right?
LT: I knew you'd like that one, D.
Mm-hmm. She goes on to Chico State, where she earns her undergrad degree in advertising and PR. While at Chico, Krista lands a summer internship with the PR firm Neal May and Partners, and clearly makes a great impression, since they offer her a job after graduation.
Uh, after that job, she eventually moves on to Ketchum PR, when, that, that was big PR firm in the day- Mm ... as an account manager for tech. All right, so having learned the PR comms business well on the agency side, Krista gets the opportunity to join Ungermann-Bass as a PR manager. UB was an early computer networking pioneer, the first major local area network company independent of any computer maker.
Brand Nerds, we talk about this often, your network is foundational to your career, and when you leave for a new opportunity, it's most practical and advantageous to leave on good terms. Krista's next move represents that in a big way. Ron Ricci, is that the way you pronounce Ron's name, Krista? Uh,
Krista Patterson: Yeah, Ricci.
LT: Ron Ricci, the man who hired her for her first job at Neilson Hay, brings her on at 3Com, then a very large tech hardware company, as PR manager for their largest business product line.
At 3Com, Krista then moves into her first pure marketing position, becoming solutions marketing manager, and later moves into field marketing manager covering the Eastern US and Canada. All right, it's now 2006, and Krista gets a great opportunity to join Cisco as senior brand marketing manager, where she spends the next 10 years in increasingly prominent roles.
Just to be clear, Brand Nerds, this is the tech company with a C, not the food services company with an S. Cisco today is an important global tech company, but in '06 it was really flying high. While at Cisco, Krista also earns her master's degree in communications from the University of Southern California, all while climbing the ladder to eventually becoming director of global brand strategy, where she and her team successfully forge synergy and alignment between global marketing, field marketing, and that's the Americas and MEA and Asia, and corporate communications, which is PR and investor relations.
And in a big tech company, Brand Nerds, that is really difficult to do, 'cause they... A lot of these people have all of their own fiefdoms, and so to bring the... all that together is, is a big job. Krista then moves on to enterprise cloud company ServiceNow as senior director of brand communications, where she builds an integrated marketing communish- communications team, developing and delivering impactful marketing, elevating the ServiceNow brand.
Krista then spends some time at Cal and San Jose State teaching marketing PR classes before returning to the corporate world, joining VMware as head of strategic brand partnerships and management in their brand experiences division. In this role, Krista and her team develop and deliver increased brand awareness and pipeline through strategic partnerships highlighted by McLaren and the San Francisco 49ers.
With all this great experience, Krista sees a real opportunity to help companies gain real clarity around their brands, and co-founds, as we mentioned earlier, Positioning Collective, where she serves as CEO. Positioning Collective partners with founders and leadership teams to navigate complex challenges resulting in unprecedented clarity.
They work hands-on with leadership teams to translate strategic intent into aligned decisions, behaviors, and execution, ensuring strategy doesn't just exist on paper, but shows up in how their companies operate and grow. Krista lives in Los Gatos, California, with her husband Mike, yellow Lab Daisy, and shout out to her children Jacob, daughter-in-law Laura, Cole, and Elise.
Welcome to Brands, Beats, and Bytes, Krista Patterson.
Krista Patterson: Wow. That, that's long. Did I do all that actually?
DC: Ind- indeed you did. Indeed you did, and we have AI to prove it.
Krista Patterson: True.
DC: For those who, for those who trust AI. Yeah, you can't hide. For those who trust AI.
Krista Patterson: You can't hide anymore. It's true.
DC: No, you cannot. It's, it's now, uh, not that you or, or Larry or I do this, or Jade, our, our super producer, it's hard to lie these days.
Hard to lie. Okay, hard to lie. But I digress, I digress. Uh, uh, Larry, once again, first show, blazing hot with the intro. Well done. Well done, my brother.
LT: It's all Krista.
DC: It is Krista. What a great summary.
Krista Patterson: Thank you.
DC: What a great summary.
Krista Patterson: Thank you so much.
DC: Great summary.
LT: You're welcome. You did it.
DC: Uh, Krista, um, I'm a car guy, and so as, uh, Larry was sharing the script and I saw the word McLaren, my ears perked up.
Is that the car brand McLaren, or is it a different McLaren?
Krista Patterson: It is. At VMware, we were a F1 sponsor.
DC: Ooh.
Krista Patterson: And so, I know. Ooh. I should have, I should have said that. Ooh.
LT: I shouldn't have taken it... I'm glad you pointed it out. That's o- that's all right. That's a- ooh A lot of people don't... The, the F1 folks, and I'm, I love F1, know what McLaren is, so I'm glad you highlighted that.
DC: Yeah.
Krista Patterson: Yeah, absolutely. I am a huge sports fan-
DC: Okay ...
Krista Patterson: and have been rejecting F1 for my entire marriage, and not wanting to watch it, and that is ridiculous, and what are you doing? And then I land this job with a dear friend- That's funny ... that I'm managing this sponsorship, and I'm headed to Woking, UK to- Okay
see their headquarters.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: And my whole family has been watching Drive to Surv- Drive to Survive, I think is what they're called- Right.
DC: Okay. Yep,
Krista Patterson: yep ... and are losing their minds- ... that I now have this role. And- And it's not
DC: fair that you, you,
LT: are going and they're not
DC: You're going. And they're not going.
Ooh.
Krista Patterson: Well, one of them got to go.
LT: Oh.
Krista Patterson: Yeah. She will lord it over her brothers forever. Um, yeah, it's true. But it was... I learned to love F1. I really made some amazing friends. It was such a great experience to, to manage, and then to work with the Niners as well, 'cause they're my team.
LT: So-
Krista Patterson: I
LT: am- They're my team, too.
Yeah. I-
Krista Patterson: Go Niners. Yeah, yeah. I noticed your sporting the college hat today, so that's, that's good. I am. But yeah. We, we share a, uh, professional MLB fandom. We're both Giants fans. Nue-
DC: noise. Yes. Yeah. I, I saw that McLaren, I was like, "Oh." All right. Yeah. Krista, before we get into the heart of the podcast, we do what's called a get comfy question, and it's just to start things off, just to start- Okay
things off.
Krista Patterson: The warmup.
DC: Uh, the, the... And Krista, in every one of the podcasts that Larry and I get, are grateful to have the opportunity to talk with people like you, there's, there's something that our guest will say somewhere along the line that will cause Larry and I to just pause and go Wow. Okay, and it expands our, our mind.
Sometimes it blows our mind, and, uh, it makes us smarter because of how smart you all are. One of those guests is called, is, he's called Oren Katzeff. Oren Katzeff.
Krista Patterson: Okay.
DC: And we were talking with him, Krista, during one of our, uh, records, and he talked about what great movies, books, stories, TV shows, brand campaigns, what they have in common.
And you heard me at the top of the show talk about a great brand positioning. He comes from a different world. He had a different saying. He said, "They tell you the stuff you don't know about the stuff you know. The stuff you don't know about the stuff you know." He said that, Krista, and Larry and I were like, "Hey, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
What did you just say?"
LT: Yeah, and he was just talking. He was- He's
DC: just talking ... kept going.
LT: We, we had to stop him.
DC: Yeah, what did you just say? So I'm, I'm then, Krista, going back to think about movies that have been great, and I'm like, yeah, I thought I knew about that character, but no, they brought something to me that I did not know.
Mm-hmm. Or a, uh, a brand campaign. I would go, I thought I knew what was going on with this brand campaign, and then I study it more and I go, oh, I didn't know that happened behind the scenes. So my question to you is, in the profession of PR communications, what's the stuff that people don't know about what makes this, that craft so vital that they think they know?
Krista Patterson: Yeah.
DC: It's, um- What don't, what don't they know? What don't we know?
Krista Patterson: It's an interesting ... The only reason I have a degree in public relations, and I hate to admit this, is that my mother said, "You like people. That's what you should do."
DC: Okay.
Krista Patterson: Well, A, it has nothing to do with people, first of all. I mean, it does as an audience, but-
DC: Right
Krista Patterson: 90% of your, of your time is spent crafting messages and writing.
DC: Right.
Krista Patterson: Or at least it was then. Right. Right? So I think that is the, for me, the most memorable thing about you didn't know anything about public relations, but- ... it worked out really great for me, so that's okay. It's all right.
DC: Um- Oh, okay. I would've thought you'd have said after you like people, you should be a greeter at Disney.
I mean, that's
Krista Patterson: basically. Well, exactly. Exactly. And I like to say that it really only qualifies you to be a cocker spaniel. Like, there's really- ... if you like people, like, there's nothing, there's really nothing magical there. Um, I think, well, for me, I have said that that gave me the best training to move on to the other things that I did.
Mm. Because what PR teaches you is to understand your audience-
DC: Mm ...
Krista Patterson: really clearly, and to really craft a tight message, because you actually don't have control over the delivery of it.
DC: So true.
Krista Patterson: That's good. So you have to convince somebody else to com- communicate a message using my words, not theirs, or something like it, and that is a whole crazy cycle that people don't really understand, that your message better be super clear to communicate it- Mm-hmm
and to convince somebody else to communicate it the way you want.
DC: Ooh, that's good, Larry. Larry, any response to Krista's answer to the question, the stuff you don't know about public
LT: relations? Keep going. I know you got something.
DC: I, I will do this, and oh, Krista, I love that you started with understand your audience.
So often in our, uh, in our profession, branding, marketing, broadly defined, we will start with- The P&L. We will start with what's the latest product release. Mm-hmm. We will start with, um, what does the senior executive in the room want to do? We will start with those things. And the audience will be way, way down starting with the audience.
The other thing I liked that w- w- what you said, Larry, what you said, Krista, is that tight message. Yes. She did not say, she did not say loquacious. That's right. Okay? She said tight. And, uh, and you, you'll know this, Krista, there's a famous quote attributed to Mark Twain, but I'm not gonna get it right, where he writes a friend a letter and he apologizes for the length of the w- letter.
He said if he had more time to think about it, it would be shorter.
LT: Yeah,
DC: exactly. Yeah, 'cause it, it takes time to get a tight message. So I, I'm, I'm picking up what Krista's laying down, Larry.
LT: Big time. And you know, DC, I see the throughput between that foundational experience that Krista had because as she's talking, what's the best brand positioning, right?
You gotta know y- your audience. Yeah. And we, we, we are like hellbent on that, Krista, to the point, you know, w- we, we, DC and I, we spend sometimes hours on where words go and how-
DC: Yeah ...
LT: w- we, we have something called the brand lover and explaining that in the most, in, in, in, in the, in the best way. And then that goes to the tight-
DC: Yeah
LT: clarity that, you know, we, because we spend so much time we want it to be tight and crystal clear, and of course something that is, uh, that is, becomes obvious to people because that becomes really important. And so that really is foundation- foundational to somebody who is a positioning expert like you are right now.
So I, I love the throughput of that.
Krista Patterson: It is, I think too, to add to that, the audience, we get so ... We get trained that it's demographics.
LT: Yeah.
Krista Patterson: That, that we really get trained there, and-
LT: We do ...
Krista Patterson: I would argue that the most important part is the mindset.
DC: Yes.
Krista Patterson: And, and we don't often, or we didn't, I, I mean, we do in our business, but we w- w- you know, when we were doing this corporate, nobody talked about the mindset.
Like-
DC: Yes ...
Krista Patterson: you know, and it's more than just early adopter, later a- you know, that thing. It's more than that. It is- Much ... you know, if you are selling or want to open a business of holistic healing-
DC: Mm-hmm ...
Krista Patterson: you better make sure that the people you're targeting have the sense of growth. Yeah. They understand and they desire it, that they have a sense of longevity, and they des- Hear, hear
they understand it and desire it. So I think mindset for us is the missing piece as well, that most people think demographics define your audience. Yeah. I think mindset really lives there.
DC: Mm-hmm. Love this, D. Uh, uh, Krista, this is, uh, very much a professional, um, podcast. Just wanna state that before I make this next, uh, uh, comment here.
When you say we're trained on demographics, and that is true I think of nearly all of us in this profession- Mm-hmm ... trained in demographics, but it's really about mindset, it's like you're whispering sweet nothings to the ears of Larry and I. It's like, it's like you're r- you're really g- you are really hitting the spot with us, okay?
Really hitting the spot with us. All right. Larry, anything, uh, more before we go to five questions?
LT: Uh, what, what a great start.
DC: What a great start, indeed. Krista, Larry and I will go back, ask you five questions. He and I will, uh, exchange, going to five. I begin. And I want to take you back to your first brand experience, the first branding experience for you, Krista, where when you engaged with the brand or experience, you were just enthralled.
You were, you were, we, we call this an Ardsley word, because, uh, Larry grew up in Ardsley so they, they, they use big words there in their school system. In, in my school system, not as much of the big words, but you were ebullient, okay? Ebullient. This really excited you. You lost track of time when you were thinking about this brand.
Smiles everywhere. Mm. A bit like a first love. What was this brand or brand experience for you, Krista?
Krista Patterson: Not, uh, uh, separate from work brands that I've worked with. Yeah. So- Yep ... uh, certainly, um, and I don't know that I knew I was enthralled with it, but when I look back on the cars I owned initially-
DC: Mm-hmm ...
Krista Patterson: I will say that I believe, and still really feel this way, and I'll explain it in three parts, um, VW.
LT: Ooh.
Krista Patterson: And it, it has nothing to do with advertising. It really, I think, I could afford to buy a VW-
LT: Mm-hmm ...
Krista Patterson: in high school. That was
LT: my first car, too, by the way. Yeah.
Krista Patterson: A Rabbit. I bought a Rabbit. Yes. I wanted a Beetle, but my dad wouldn't let me have it, so we had, I had to have a Rabbit 'cause it was more reliable.
Okay, fine. And I was gonna drive it to Chico, which is four hours away. Right. So I bought the Rabbit. And then when I got my first job out of college, I bought a Jetta, because- Ah,
DC: okay ...
Krista Patterson: because the Rabbit was so good. And so those two, coupled with- One of my dream cars is a 15-window, 15-window VW Bus.
LT: Oh.
DC: Oh, yeah.
Yes.
Krista Patterson: A specific VW Bus.
LT: Have you seen the new ones? They're really cool looking.
Krista Patterson: They're very cute.
LT: Yeah.
Krista Patterson: But a VW Bus that is a 15-window is a thing. Like, it- Right ... and I, I love kind of open air. I, I have a 2002 Jeep Wrangler in my driveway. Mm-hmm. Um, so I love driving, you know- Mm-hmm ... that kind of open air, kind of raw- Yeah.
DC: Mm-hmm
LT: By the way, sorry to interrupt you, Krista, but we're scary 'cause I- DC knows when, when I was at Coke, that's the car I had. It is, yes. So when you and I That's exactly right.
Krista Patterson: Scary. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. We're, yeah.
LT: Black soft top.
Krista Patterson: Yes. Okay, love. Right. I drove three kids around in a Jeep, so yes, all of that.
And I, I really feel like it was an accessible car.
LT: Mm.
Krista Patterson: Mm-hmm. And that I really liked about it- Mm-hmm ... that no matter which part of my life, and then we ultimately I ended up buying Audis, which they bought VW, right? So- They
DC: did, yeah ...
Krista Patterson: it's an interesting kind of brand love that I wasn't even sure I had.
DC: That's,
Krista Patterson: love that. And looking back, I have it, right? And nothing to do with marketing, really. It was just my exper- and I, we say this all the time, your brand is not just the marketing, it's not just the message, it is every touchpoint. Yes. And so my experience with VW and how reliable it was and how accessible it was- Mm-hmm
and how I could move up as my career moved and my, my income moved really made it stick for me.
LT: Ooh, this is a good one, DC. Nice.
DC: Nice.
LT: I have a, I have a question for Krista. So were you, it sounds like, but I don't want to put words in your mouth, do you, do you really enjoy to drive?
Krista Patterson: Um, I do. I enjoy driving.
It is true. I don't know that I'm the best driver, but I enjoy- I didn't ask that. Yeah, yeah. Okay, good. I do. I like driving. I like, I'm, I-
I think, um, my husband is a car guy, for sure, and that kind of has made me in turn become a car person.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: Um, and I, we want different things, and I want what I want in the car. Right. And so we sometimes, it doesn't match. That's okay. Um, but I do enjoy it. Yeah, the reas- I love a good road trip. Love a road trip.
LT: Yeah, yeah. The reason why I asked that question is because if you remember, one of the many campaigns VW did have, which, which talked to me, was Drivers Wanted.
Krista Patterson: Yes.
LT: Remember that campaign? Yes,
Krista Patterson: I do.
LT: And, and, and so there's a, there's a spirit that goes with that, right? Right. Drivers Wanted. Yes. And it's so funny, my first car, and I don't, I, I hate to put myself in it, but I think it's really interesting.
First car, Rabbit GTI. Then, then I had a Wrangler, and then I ended up with a Jetta, and, and, uh, and yes- Sounds about right ... and then a Passat. Okay? Okay. But where you and I diverge, I went BMW, you went Audi. But it's- Right ... it's, it's the same sort of, um, you know, uh, as you would put it- Project ... it's not a demographic, it's the psychographic of- Mm-hmm
those are all cars that are really fun to drive, those brands.
Krista Patterson: Mm-hmm.
DC: Yeah,
Krista Patterson: yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
LT: And they're made for that.
Krista Patterson: Absolutely, yes.
LT: Versus a Lincoln. No disrespect to Lincoln, but that's driving your, you know, your living room down, down the, down the- Yeah ... road, right?
Krista Patterson: Yes.
LT: But I, I think this is really interesting.
It's s- and again, car brands, we al- we talk about car brands are great because they do say a lot about you. They really do. They do.
Krista Patterson: Yeah. I, I think so too. Yeah, I agree. So that, I think that is the first brand that I loved, even though I, I really wasn't sure that I did at the time. I didn't know what that meant.
LT: Right.
Krista Patterson: Um, I just stuck with it, and there's a reason, I guess.
LT: Love it. Dee, anything else?
DC: I just have one comment. Am I correct in, um, in recalling that the, um, your dog's name is Daisy?
LT: Mm-hmm.
DC: Okay. Uh, w- uh, Daisy's, uh, for Brand Nerds who are not able to see this, uh, Daisy's behind the door where, uh, where Krista is, and when Krista said, uh, that she's, she loves driving open air and has a Wrangler-
and then she went on to say, "And I don't drive very well," I heard, I heard Daisy behind the wall go, "Ruff!" Like, like Daisy might have been flying up out of the back of that Wrangler. All right. All right. Here we go. Uh, next question, Larry.
LT: So Krista, who has had or is having the most influence on your career?
Krista Patterson: Uh, two- twofold. And it, it's not ... I, I had really, you know, uh, you think about this a lot. Like, okay, who- Sure ... who, who am I, who's my mentor, blah, blah, blah. That kind of thing. And, and I do a lot of work with early in career, and so they're also looking for mentors, and I think that's interesting. It was actually more a group of people, uh, that have- Mm-hmm
remained friends. And- Love that.
DC: Oh, wow ...
Krista Patterson: we were at Cisco together in the early years. Uh, Dana Masuda, Barry Cohen, Alex Crawford, who's now my business partner, Angela Stark, um, who we worked very closely together and is an amazing brand and marketing brain. Mm-hmm. Um, that group of people, we have kept in touch and have really helped guide each other- Mm-hmm
and help each other as we have moved through our careers. Uh, none of us work together anymore-
DC: Mm-hmm ...
Krista Patterson: but we talk often individually, sometimes in groups. Hannah Cho was a part of that. Um, and I feel like that time in my career influenced everything going forward.
LT: Mm. Did you say Hannah Cho?
Krista Patterson: Mm-hmm.
LT: I worked with her at Edelman.
Small world.
Krista Patterson: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I visited her in the office when Kelly Schweiger was also there, who is- Ah, sure ... fantastic. Yeah.
LT: Yeah.
Krista Patterson: Um, then the second is, uh, I just had coffee with her this morning actually. Patty Curtis is someone that I didn't meet until ServiceNow, and we became great personal friends through COVID.
She lives in the town I live in. We started walking three days a week, 'cause, you know, in COVID in California you were only allowed to do things outside. Mm. And so we got to know each other really well. She ... And she is a great marketer in her own right, absolutely. Um, events, brand, comms, all of it. She's fantastic.
She's worked with us at Positioning Collective a bit as a consultant. She's had a great career. She is the one that says to me at 6:00 AM on a walk, "Yeah, but you shouldn't do that, 'cause your superpower is this."
DC: Mm. Mm. "
Krista Patterson: And why would you wanna do that with your business when you could really do this?"
DC: Mm.
Krista Patterson: And I am so grateful for that at this, at the age I am, which we don't have to talk about.
But that I- Mm ... she is guiding me in a, in a really great mentor friendship, then slaps me upside the head a couple times for sure about- Mm-hmm ... what are you thinking? Mm-hmm. And challenging me. Mm. And I appreciate that so much.
DC: Mm.
Krista Patterson: And am so grateful for that
DC: You're fortunate Love that Yeah, you're, you're, you're fortunate to have, uh people like that in your life.
Krista Patterson: I am, absolutely. Yeah. I'm really fortunate.
LT: D, any follow-up?
DC: I don't have any, no.
LT: I just have a quick one. So DC and I were also fortunate. Our, we have a similar situation with, uh, where when we grew up at Coca-Cola.
DC: Mm-hmm.
LT: Like the group of people that you described at Cisco. Mm-hmm. And we knew it at the time, and again, we, we did ourselves here, Krista, this is before you.
This is in the '90s, and Coca-Cola was the number one brand in the world. Mm-hmm. And if you were a marketer, you, and you could work at Coca-Cola, you, you went there. And so we knew, and we knew around us, our colleagues were incredible. And, and we, we still, DC and I still keep up with our, Michael Moore, who's a, a great friend of ours who's been on this podcast, a- and many others who we keep up with.
And, you know, when you ... I love the fact that you brought about people, uh, who are your colleagues, because- Mm ... too often that gets overlooked. And when you have people like Patty who shoot it to you straight, who, uh, ain't gonna BS you, man, that's, uh, that's worth its weight in platinum. I'll say more than gold, you know?
Krista Patterson: Yeah, absolutely. And then it's not to say that all those relationships have been smooth. They have not.
DC: Yeah, yeah.
Krista Patterson: But we repair, and we come back together. Yeah. And I think that we all have an amazing ... Patty knows some of these folks as well. She also spent some time at Cisco. But we have an amazing respect for each other.
LT: Yep. Yeah.
Krista Patterson: And I think that time was such a time of growth. The company was, Cisco, was skyrock- like, it was-
LT: That's why I said it in the intro ...
Krista Patterson: yeah, it was-
LT: Right? ...
Krista Patterson: a crazy time.
LT: And shout out to our mutual friend Lisa Varney, 'cause that's how I know. Lisa's a friend- Yes ... of ours, and we were hanging out with Lisa a lot then.
She was there at that time, and so- Yeah ... we just knew, really knew what was going on at Cisco. So sorry to interrupt you, but I, I wanted to shout out Lisa.
Krista Patterson: No, I think absolutely. And we were all kind of moving quickly, right? Like, it wasn't ... Our careers were moving just as fast as the company was going- Mm-hmm
because, okay, we needed somebody to do chief of staff work over here in comms- Yeah ... and okay, Krista, you might be good at that. Go do that. Mm-hmm. You know, it was very, it was a crazy time from a growth and movement perspective. Mm-hmm. And I think to have that group of people to kind of work together, bounce ideas off, we've all worked together in different permutations throughout the years.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: Um, I think I, I worked last with Hannah in, like, 2020. I've done some work with Dana. Like, so it's really, I think that time influenced going forward, for sure.
LT: Very cool.
DC: Cool.
LT: D, you wanna hit the next question?
DC: I do. Uh, Brand Nerds, before I, uh, go over the next question, uh, take you behind the scenes here.
As we were talking with Krista before we s- we got into the, um- Podcast content, uh, and, and, um, our super producer Jade said our content is editable, so if you, if you say something and you want it edited out, we can edit it later. And Jade says, "This is not a got you kind of a podcast," and it isn't. We're here to make you look good.
Krista says, "Can I say the F word?" And I said, "You absolutely can say the F word." Which leads me to question number three, what's your biggest F-up in your career? The biggest F-up, Krista, the big juicy one out there, and most importantly, what'd you learn from it?
Krista Patterson: Hmm. I'm gonna... Can I have two?
DC: You can have- Yeah two, yes.
Krista Patterson: They both kind of shaped my career and my own personal growth.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: But the, this ... Well, okay. I'll just start. Um, part of the experience at Cisco, I, uh, was on a trajectory to become a director. Mm-hmm. I was managing small business marketing. We were a group they shipped out to a whole different site.
It was crazy. Mm-hmm. And the, at the time, one of my leaders said, "Okay, but you haven't fired anybody. We're not gonna promote you to a director till you fire people, and we're gonna give you three people that need to be fired, and you're gonna fire them."
LT: Mm. Okay.
Krista Patterson: Yep.
LT: Oh, okay.
Krista Patterson: And I didn't know enough to say like, "Hell no, I'm not doing that," but I did it, okay?
Okay. So I am a highly sympa- sympathetic, empathetic human, and emotional admittedly. And in order for me to do that, I had to compartmentalize to a degree that I didn't even know was possible.
DC: Mm.
Krista Patterson: And so I did that. I was a robot in firing them. I didn't really know why we were firing them- Mm ... but I used the lines they gave me, and I did it.
LT: Yeah.
Krista Patterson: And I'm gonna fast-forward 15 years about. Mm. 10 to 15. And I was at a school function for one of my children, and I saw somebody that I worked with at Cisco, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, there's John. I need to go say hello to him." And I went and said hello to him. I said, "Gosh, John, I haven't seen you in so long.
How are you?" And he said, "Yeah, you haven't seen me since the day you fired me." And I had forgotten that I did. Oh, wow.
DC: Oh, wow.
Krista Patterson: And I went home and was sick to my stomach.
DC: Yeah.
Krista Patterson: And from that day forward, I decided I'm gonna cry in meetings if I want. I'm gonna do things that are true to my heart. I- Wow ... people are gonna know me, and I am not going to do this compartmentalizing thing again.
I can't. I'm not doing that.
DC: Mm.
Krista Patterson: It's just not okay. So that was a huge learning for me, and I think positively impact people that I worked with going forward, and I'm sorry for the people behi- you know, that were behind that moment. Mm-hmm. Because I wasn't the best version of me, for sure. Mm-hmm. Because I was more focused on getting ahead and getting the next title than being me.
DC: Oof. Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: And that was a fuck up, for sure. Sorry.
DC: Oh.
Krista Patterson: That was a, that was a, a bad thing. And I ... Well, obviously I remember it so clearly that that wasn't okay That's the first one.
DC: Wow.
LT: Yeah. D- dare I say this is one of the best ones we've ever
DC: had? Th- th- this is, this is without question, yeah. Um-
LT: Yeah. Y- this is- Uh-
in the, uh, of 200, this is about in the, easily in the top five.
DC: This, this is top, top five. Um- Yeah.
Krista Patterson: Top five F-ups. Yay me!.
DC: Yeah, this, this- ... this is top five. Uh, the, the... Well, it's, it's the learning, the insight coming from it. Exactly.
LT: That's what we're talking about.
DC: This, it's- Yes ... coming from it. All right.
Uh, so Krista Your ability at that point to compartmentalize, world-class. You, you, your brain did such a great job-
LT: Mm-hmm ...
DC: that you did not remember what you did. Mm-hmm. You, you literally had no clue.
LT: That's why Tr- that's why Crystal described it that way, D, right? Y-
DC: yes. Yeah. Yes.
Krista Patterson: Yes.
DC: Where did you learn that ability to compartmentalize?
Krista Patterson: I, um, gosh, after all the work I've done personally, I'm sure that it was something childhood.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: Um, and that's a whole nother show. Definitely. Okay. Probably, probably moderated by a therapist, right? Uh, I'm, I'm sure that it was a childhood situation- Okay ... that- Okay ... that incubated that. Mm-hmm. Um, actually, the harder part, I think, is to be yourself and to- Mm-hmm allow whatever emotion is happening for you in that moment to happen.
DC: Yeah.
Krista Patterson: Mm-hmm. As a professional, you know, I had a conversation with somebody yesterday, I think that women are often told, or not so much now, uh, but certainly in the beginning of my career, emotion, there's no place for that at work.
DC: Yep.
Krista Patterson: And now that it's bring your s- whole self to work and all of that, I'm just- Yeah, yeah ... I'm actually really happy to see that shift. Yeah. And it kind of ha- maybe that experience happened a little before some of that. It's just such a hard thing, A, to bring, to allow yourself to be you.
DC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: Um, and, and to compartmentalize it.
I think they're both difficult.
LT: Yeah.
Krista Patterson: I, I als- I often say that a brand, like a personal brand, is you on your best day. Mm. It should be authentic and slightly aspirational. And so me on my best day was not that person.
DC: Got it.
Krista Patterson: And who I want to be as a human, and to have a brand that reflects that, I have to behave that way.
DC: Got it. Whoa.
LT: That's awesome.
DC: Whoa. All right, Larry, if you don't have a comment to that one, let's h- let's hear a second one, but do you have a comment?
LT: I, I have a quick... D, I'm gonna put you on the spot here, um, because I think it's really relevant. And y- he, you've told this but it was in one of our ca- podcasts before but it was a while ago and I think it should be resurfaced because of being your authentic self.
Can you tell Krista and the Brand Nerds also what, when you first got to Coca-Cola and you were struggling and you had an epiphany of what you needed to do?
DC: Uh, thanks, Larry. I, I will share it. Uh, so Krista, um, because of what Larry said earlier, Coca-Cola being at that time the number one brand in the world-
LT: Mm-hmm
DC: um, um, and the most valuable brand in the world, um, going to Coca-Cola at that time as a marketer is the equivalent of right now in tech people going to Apple or NVIDIA.
Krista Patterson: NVIDIA, yeah. Or,
DC: uh- Right ... or Cisco. Right. Or Microsoft. These b- these behemoths, uh, that are, um, running tech today globally. That's what Coke was to marketers.
Mm-hmm. Those that were established and aspiring marketers certainly, uh, for me. So I got, um, my MBA from a school here in Atlanta called Clark Atlanta University. So this is a historically Black college and university, and I also did an undergrad at Alabama A&M, also an HBCU. Coca-Cola recruited MBAs from all over the world at the best schools, the best business schools all over the world.
And, uh, they happened to also recruit at, uh, Clark Atlanta University, but we were not in any way thinking that we were gonna see Clark Atlanta University, uh, rankings of MBA with- Mm-hmm ... Harvard, Wharton, Oxford- Mm-hmm ... um, uh, Fuqua, uh, i- any of these, any of these, you know, prestigious MBA schools. So what I decided, because these were my peers from these schools, Krista, is that I was going to be the best version of those MBAs.
You talk about on your best day, uh, you know, you, you, you, you wanna be you on your best day. I thought for me, me on my best day was to be- Mm-hmm ... a version of those MBAs.
LT: Mm-hmm.
DC: And I failed miserably. I was scratching myself. I had holes in the knees of my fine Italian suits because I was rubbing my knees 'cause I was...
Again, I didn't realize this. Much like you, you didn't realize it. Right. I didn't realize it, uh, at the time. And because it was going so horrifically bad, I decided one day, this is the epiphany that Larry said, I said, "Hmm
I've gone to two HBCUs, and I grew up in the inner city of Detroit. I've survived things that most humans cannot survive. I'm going to be me. I know some things that the rest of these MBAs from these wonderful universities do not know. I'm gonna be true to that, and then we'll see where it, see where it goes.
And it changed my career and changed my life.
Krista Patterson: I love that.
DC: Yep.
Krista Patterson: Such a great story.
DC: Yeah.
LT: Isn't it? Second youngest- Thank you very much ... Brandweek Marketer of the Year to August Busch the IV, so he really doesn't count. So that, that's where DC Shift brought Sprite to go fwoop. He won't say that, I will. Okay.
Uh- sorry.
Y- So Krista had another one.
DC: That she,
Krista Patterson: she does,
DC: yes.
Krista Patterson: I do. And this is more of a, um, cautionary tale maybe. I, I left Cisco, uh, as a director to... Well, I thought I was having a nervous breakdown. It turned out I was pregnant with my third child, so that was crazy. Mm. Um, I left. I consulted for a while, and I, they wanted me to come back full time for my- Mm-hmm
second tour of duty.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: And they hired me as an individual contributor. Mm. And I took it.
DC: Mm.
Krista Patterson: And then I climbed that same ladder again.
DC: Mm.
Krista Patterson: Now, for the years that I was climbing, they got the value of a director of marketing-
DC: Right. Mm-hmm ...
Krista Patterson: and paid me as an individual contributor.
DC: Right. Mm.
Krista Patterson: That is on me.
DC: Yeah.
Krista Patterson: Because, well, I, I don't typically hire this way as a... I'm not looking for a bargain when I'm hiring people. Mm-hmm. I'm not. Mm. So I didn't learn- We feel the same
DC: way ...
Krista Patterson: I didn't learn that till later, right? So I was like, oh, well, yeah, now I'm a mom and, you know, three... I guess this is the all I can get.
DC: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Krista Patterson: That I feel like was a pretty major personal F-up
DC: Another good one. Larry?
Krista Patterson: Yeah.
LT: A good one. There's nothing to add to that, but that's, that, that's something, Brand Nerds, that you need to tuck in the front of your mind on that one.
DC: Yeah. Uh, Brand Nerds, uh, as you, you know, Krista, you don't know this, I'm a girl dad.
I have three daughters, and I'm also now, um, a girl granddad. So the, there are the four ladies in my life, and I say to my daughters, uh, sometime, and I will say this to my granddaughter as well-
LT: Stevie ...
DC: Stevie Sky. Yeah. That if, um, uh, if men had to bear the pain and responsibility of having children, there would not be a population.
And the second thing I say to them is that if men had to bear children and leave the workforce for a period of time, when they came back, not only would they have their same job at the same level- Mm-hmm ... they might even be promoted Right ... on the way back in. I
Krista Patterson: agree.
DC: So I, I, I, I respect this what's popping...
I mean, not what's popping. Mm-hmm. This, uh, this question about biggest F up. That's, Brand Nerds, particularly those of you who are going to be taking time off to take care of children, remember Krista's words. Yeah. Remember- We also are- Remember Krista's words ...
Krista Patterson: forced to, like, explain why we were out, right?
Right. We have to, uh, you have to account for the gap in your resume.
DC: Yes.
Krista Patterson: And I don't know if I still have it on LinkedIn, I might, there was that time, so I, I think I only... The only amount of time that I didn't work was maybe five years, I think. Mm-hmm. Because three under five is kinda crazy. Um- Mm-hmm ... and two dogs.
I wrote on my resume how managing a team of children- Yeah ... is the same as managing- Ah ... a group of people.
DC: That's good. Yes.
Krista Patterson: I wrote about short-term and long-term objectives, whether they were, you know, nutrition- Mm-hmm ... or health. I wrote about, you know, managing their own goals and those things. And I think it might actually still be on my LinkedIn because- Oh, wow
every interview I had after that, they, somebody asked me about it. What a great way to, to cover the, the gap.
LT: Yeah
Krista Patterson: And it was my way of saying I didn't stop working.
LT: Right. Yeah. And you were authentic to yourself, going back to your... Right?
Krista Patterson: Yes. I mean, absolutely. It, my children know me as a working mom.
LT: Right.
Krista Patterson: Now, did I have time? C- certain times in my life I had time, I had trouble with balance or- Sure ... stopping what I consider the addiction to the energy of an amazing team that you're working with in a corporation. Mm-hmm. Like, there is an energy there that is not replaceable, and you guys have- Mm-hmm ... both experienced it, I'm sure.
And so- Mm-hmm ... sometimes I had a hard time with that, and I, I really needed to check myself. But overall, they had a mom that picked them up from school and still was a thriving member of the working community.
LT: Yep.
DC: Mm-hmm.
LT: That's, that's great stuff. D, you ready to go to the next question? Let's do it. All right.
So, uh, Krista, as we talked about earlier with you, this is the bytes part of the equation, and you've lived the bytes part. Mm-hmm. Uh, really you didn't even know growing up in the Bay Area, right? But so regarding technology and marketing, you have seen a lot. Can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech?
Or you can go to an area or areas that they should be leery or simply avoid. What say you?
Krista Patterson: Hmm. Well, I guess we're gonna talk a little bit about AI, because I think for me, growing up in infrastructure, right? I grew up with networking companies- Yes ... and that infrastructure made the internet possible.
LT: Yes.
Krista Patterson: I know that for generations of people right now, they don't remember a time where there wasn't the internet.
We didn't have cell phones, all those things. I hate to date myself.
LT: That hardware, I just wanted to- It's
Krista Patterson: hardware, yeah, yeah. Sorry ...
LT: it's the hardware that- Yes ... was the literal foundation, Brand Nerds, to the whole highway of the internet- Mm-hmm ... and then AI, and now AI and beyond. So I'm glad you- Yeah ... you, you, you're taking us back to that foundation.
DC: Yeah.
Krista Patterson: I think AI is like the internet's second coming, basically.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: And it is, for me, interesting to watch how these infrastructure companies, uh, respond. And I think, I- all the, all that you can do with AI is fantastic and-
LT: Mm-hmm ...
Krista Patterson: in most cases, and where it's not be- where people don't use it for good are issues, and we're tracking those and all of that.
Um, how the infrastructure behind it is built is going to cause a lot of problems. Mm-hmm. And we read about some of that from an economic, econom- ecological, uh, perspective, and I think we as marketers need to be asking a lot more questions on that side of it.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: Not just what is the coolest thing I can do with it, but- Yeah
what is the backside of that and what is it causing? Oof.
LT: Mm-hmm.
DC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
LT: You know, Krista, you just tripped something in me. Were you, were you complete? I, but you just ... Were you complete in your thought?
Krista Patterson: Yeah, I, I do- I think that especial- ... well, and marketing might even be ... I use that as a broad term.
LT: Right.
Krista Patterson: I think communications people, part of what makes us great is asking great questions.
DC: Right.
Krista Patterson: And we need to ask- Mm ... a lot more questions about- Yes ... what the infrastructure is gonna look like, and not just the companies that are making money off of it or whatever. We have to ask more questions about how it's made possible.
LT: Wow.
DC: Mm-hmm. Mm.
LT: So Krista, DC, you know, again, 'cause we're of similar ages, so I'm gonna, uh, dare I go here, but I think you, you just, what you just said so really eloquent- eloquently is that- Here in the 21st century, there's, Brand Nerds, you may or may not know this, there's these huge data centers that are taking up huge amounts of water and power, and that's what Krista's referring to.
And if you think back to the 20th century and mid to late century of what was, was past the Industrial Revolution but is the industrial boom, and there's all these factories and energy that didn't account for clean water or clean air. They just w- it was just in the, in the name of progress, and then all of a sudden we're waking up and the, the Lake Erie around Cleveland's on fire, literally.
You can go Google that. Mm-hmm. Look it up, right? Like- Yeah ... there was, there was all these ecological, uh, disasters emanating from that. Mm-hmm. And so what I hadn't even thought of it in those terms, what you're saying to us is, "Hey, as marketing people, as PR people, we should be also thinking about what all of this back," uh, I'm gonna say, you know, the, the, the networking, the, the infrastructure was the word I was looking for, what's that doing right now?
And we should be- Mm ... questioning it and asking about it, right?
Krista Patterson: Yeah, I think, and asking about it now. I mean- Right ... instead of looking backwards- Mm-hmm ... when things are not great and s- you know, trying to catch up with whether it's regulations or catch up with, um, technologies that can help offset some of this.
I think that's also an interesting question, right? Like, okay, for every problem there is a solution. Right. And
DC: so
Krista Patterson: s- there, or at least a way to, to maybe tamper the impact. So temper, tamper? I don't know. Temper, I think. Um, I, I do, I wanna ask those questions sooner rather than later. And I think as PR people and comms people and marketing people, we have a responsibility to ask.
DC: Love it. I completely agree, uh, Krista, and there's an irony here, a sweet irony, is the industry of, uh, of AI predicated on asking questions. Right. Mm-hmm. Some are afraid of those of us who do not work at those companies asking questions. Yeah. There's an irony here.
Krista Patterson: Yeah. There, there is. True. That is. That's true.
DC: Mm. All right. Great stuff.
LT: Can you move to the next question, D?
DC: Sure can. Krista, you can take this question any- anywhere you wanna take it. What are you most proud of?
Krista Patterson: I think the easiest answer would be my children.
DC: Mm.
Krista Patterson: Um, they're grown-ups, and they're really cool. Mm. And they're completely off the payroll, also very cool.
Oh, that, that, that,
DC: what- Oh ... what an achievement.
Krista Patterson: Love that. That is.
DC: Yeah, what an achievement.
Krista Patterson: Love it.
DC: Yeah.
LT: So I have to shout out our son Jake. It's his first day of work today, hopefully on his r- path to, to
DC: Nephew. Shout out Jake.
Krista Patterson: So good. Yes. Yeah, I have a Jacob too. Sorry. Yeah, I have a Jacob too, so I get it.
Um, I think that's the easy answer, but I think there's something broader that transcends that. Uh, that and maybe my career or whatever. I am most proud of the relationships I have.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: I work hard at being a better person every day. I deeply love my family, my friends, and the relationships that we've built.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: Doesn't mean I haven't made mistakes in- Mm-hmm ... relationships, absolutely.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: I, you know, don't always do, say whatever the right thing. I'm learning still. It's the first time I'm this age in this place.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: I'm brand new to this. Mm-hmm. So I'm learning, too But I am proud of how I've built... People say, "Oh, you have such a great network."
Doesn't mean how many people you're connected to on LinkedIn- Mm-hmm ... or how many friends you have on Facebook or in- Mm-hmm ... followers you have on Instagram. It's the deep relationships that I have that I'm proud of with my children, with my siblings- Mm-hmm ... which ironically we all worked in the same marketing department at Cisco for a time.
LT: And-
Krista Patterson: No
LT: way. Oh.
Krista Patterson: Yeah. And we really like each other.
LT: Give a shout-out to them, please.
Krista Patterson: Yeah. Uh, Anthony Passarelli is still working at our, is working at our agency now, and is working on the Cisco business. Mm-hmm. And I love that. I t- you know, he's amazing and trust him. Um, one of my nieces works at Positioning Collective as well, and keeps me straight.
Mm-hmm. Um, Gina is retired, my sister. So we are, I mean, we had a great time- That's great ... in those years working together. We are s- have solidarity in managing aging parents. Mm-hmm. And so all of the relationships, my children, my siblings, my friends, we have a 18-year breakfast date on Fridays that we have gone and met, and that is, we call it, uh, my council, uh, the directors, board of directors, uh, for my life.
And I've mentioned a lot of this, the Cisco relationships, Patty's. You know, I, I'm really proud of that, that I have built a rich life with amazing relationships
LT: And
Krista Patterson: I'm still working on it. Yeah
LT: I love this, D. I don't know what ... I don't know much to add, but, uh, other than the fact that, uh, it says a lot about you the human because, uh, that
Without the people, good people around us, who are we?
Krista Patterson: Exactly. Exactly. Mm.
DC: I don't have anything to add to that.
LT: Nope. It's a mic drop.
DC: Yeah.
LT: All right. Great stuff. Krista, oh, man, this is awesome. Th- this is what happens with our, with our wonderful guests like you. The shows go fast, so we- we're, uh, into the next segment.
What's popping? What's popping, D? What's popping, Krista? What's
DC: popping?
LT: So Krista, this is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply air something happening in and around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion. And, oh, this one's really good. We, uh ... This one's really good, brand nerds, um, because we think it's playing out in real time right now in an industry every single one of us interacts with pretty much all the time, and that's burgers.
Here's the headlines. Burger King just passed Wendy's to reclaim the number two spot among US burger chains for the first time in six years. Their domestic same s- same store sales were up 8.5% last quarter, and that's in a tough economy. That's, that's an incredible number. In that same quarter, Wendy's same stores same store sales were down 7%, so they're almost trading up, but Burger King's got them a little bit beat.
Which is their ... And for Wendy's, this is their sixth straight quarter of decline. Mm. Same category, same quarter, completely opposite trajectories. So what's actually going on? Burger King has been in the middle of a multi-year turnaround, remodeling restaurants, reinvesting in the brand, and most notably retiring their Ki- King mascot earlier this year in favor of a new platform that puts the customer at the center of the brand.
They backed it with real money, including franchisees agreeing to increase their own contribution to the marketing fund to help fund it. It went from 4% to 4.5%, by the way. Mendy- Wendy's, meanwhile, Wendy's meanwhile has been dealing with instability at the top. They've had three different CEOs in, in under three years while their marketing has continued to lean on the same product claim they've used for decades, fresh never frozen beef, going back to the old school commercial Where's the Beef?
So that's the setup every- v- for Krista and DC. Krista, would love to throw it to you first. What's your thoughts?
Krista Patterson: Well, I think this is a c- really classic example of a brand returning to its position.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: And the positioning for Burger King has been flame broiled, have it your way, and they have returned there for this step.
Mm-hmm. And it, it ... You know, we see brands even flagging that they're gonna do it. Starbucks, for instance, in November of 2025 came out and said- We are going back to our third place position
DC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ...
Krista Patterson: that's our roots. We're going back there. We're gonna market that, which was, I don't remember where I read it, but it's an interesting return, and I, I like that for Burger King.
I think it's a good call. Clearly, it's sussed out in the, in the numbers.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: So that, to me, is what's happening. They're returning to clear positioning.
LT: Right.
DC: Mm. Amen. Right. Amen.
Krista Patterson: Yeah.
DC: Krista- D, what are you
LT: thinking?
DC: When Larry and I, uh, talked about this as a subject, we, we, we became giddy. We became giddy.
And, uh, to have you, again, Brand Nerds taking you behind the curtain here, to have you tell us in an email, uh, last evening that you and your family and have been talking about this, we thought, "Okay, we, we, we're definitely going with this subject." Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Larry and Krista, since you went back, Krista, to they've, they've returned to their positioning, I wanna go back a little bit myself First nugget is the, the King, or as they would say it here in Atlanta, or if you are a TI fan, you would say the Kang, the Kang-
has been fired twice. Not once. Right. Twice. In 2011, the King was fired the first time. I won't name the agency because I don't wanna, um, um, say anything that's, uh, out of school about them. But they li- they, they, they launched a campaign around the burger, and people said, uh, "This is a creepy king." In fact, the then CFO, who's now the president of Burger King, said they got rid of the king because it scared away women and children.
Not what you want at, at a burger chain. This is, this is a... Then they, then they brought the King back in 2015, and they brought the King back by having the, the, the King be in the entourage of Floyd Mayweather as Floyd Mayweather was doing his walk to the ring to fight Manny Pacquiao. The, I'm not making this up, and they paid, uh, Mayweather reportedly- Wow
uh, around a million dollars. This was in 2015. So j- let's just think about this, boys and girls. Boy. Yeah. The King gets fired because the King's creepy and scaring women and children, and how do you bring them back? You bring him back in boxing, a brutal blood sport, and you put him with Floyd Mayweather.
Okay. All right. Who had been allegedly accused of some things involving women. This is what you do when you bring the King back. No- Genius ... not, not, not good. Not, not good. So then they, so now the second firing came in March of this year. March 15th, they fire, uh, they fire the King because, as you said, Krista, they're saying, "The King's not the king anymore. You are the king," as in the customer, which, which is have it your way. You get it your way, so you're, you're the king. All right. The CMO then says this, "Many people..." This is, this is, this is, like, on, on a, "Many people found the king to be creepy, so we're firing the, the, the King."
LT: This is- This is the second firing, just to be clear.
DC: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, second firing. Yeah, yeah. Sec- second firing. Right Yeah. So this is second firing. Thank you, Larry. Right. So here is my, uh, here's my takeaway from all of this. I love how they've gone back to the roots of their positioning, Krista. I, I, I really do. However, I also believe they've made an error And here's the error I think they've made, uh, Chris, Larry, and Brand Nerds.
They could have gone back to their roots with saying that the customer is in fact the king. The king. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But th- this, this king has 40, 50 years of equity. Mm-hmm. Why fire the king? I think they should have demoted the king- ... and had the king bow down to the customer. To the customer. Mm. Yeah. Use this icon that they've had for decades- Right
and say, "King, you're now serving. Your crown is gone. You're serving the customer now. They've got the real crown." I believe that would've been stronger than what they did, but I can't argue with the results, so that's my takeaway.
Krista Patterson: It's an interesting thing that they would fire the King and bring him back in the same look and feel, let's just say.
DC: Right, yes.
Krista Patterson: Like, okay, Bond 007- Yes ... we had different, how many different actors have we had?
DC: I, a lot. 20. A lot,
Krista Patterson: yeah. So can't we have a less creepy King?
DC: Right. I would think. You
Krista Patterson: would think. I would think. And I, and I, and I think it's your, your, to your point, is there's a lot of brand equity in the King. Like, let's evolve him-
DC: Yes
Krista Patterson: to be less creepy-
DC: Right ...
Krista Patterson: uh, more servant led, right? Yes. Like, I'm gonna serve m- I'm gonna serve my client. Yes. I'm gonna serve the customer. Um, I think it's an interesting choice to just throw it out.
DC: I, I, I, I do too. I think- I mean, can the King not be Matthew McConaughey? Right. Who doesn't like Matthew McConaughey?
Krista Patterson: Exactly.
LT: Right.
Krista Patterson: Exactly.
LT: Right.
DC: Exactly.
LT: Right.
DC: Larry, what do you think, man? Yeah,
LT: I love this conversation. This is great, and it's funny where you went, DC, like, you can't argue with the results.
DC: Yeah.
LT: Krista, I'm gonna use, um, some of our, our parlance. We have a, a special IP for brand positioning, which, uh, we start with w- we, we call it something different, 'cause it is different, called the brand creation statement.
Mm-hmm. And it's all, it's all, uh, predicated off what we call the brand promise. Mm-hmm. So it... D, I'm reading their brand promise is to be, and it's, and this is the throughput, it's, "Hey, the customer's first. You have it your way." Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they lost sort of, they, they lost that story with all the BS that they did for a while.
Yeah. So they're now bringing the brand promise back. Yeah. So that's been really, I think, at the heart of their success.
DC: Yep.
LT: Yeah. Um, because they're elevating that and they're doing that. But dare I say, it's funny, and, and, and by the way, Krista, DC and I don't, we have no idea what one another's gonna say when it comes to this.
No. So it's, it's interesting what DC... Where, where I would go to is while Burger King's done great, I think they've got a lot more room to grow, 'cause I look at this, both Krista and DC and I go, "Okay, I really like the elevation of the, of the brand promise, but who is the consumer? Who is really the brand lover?"
I'm not seeing it. I think they're still trying to be an all things for all people- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... thing, and while it's working now, I don't... At, at some point they're gonna have to come forward with that, because- Mm ... DC alluded to, you know, if you knew your brand lover, right, uh, going back to the second iteration of the King, the last thing you would do- You, you,
DC: you're not doing Mayweather
LT: would just be involved with Mayweather.
DC: Yeah.
LT: Right? Mm-mm. So, so there's huge room to, to go. I just wanna go quick comment on Wendy's before we end. You know, Wendy's to me- has a, a, a low ceiling. They talk about that a lot, right, with, with, uh, Chris, a lot of athletes. Like- Mm-hmm ... this guy's got a really good f- a, a high floor but a low ceiling, which means- Yeah,
DC: yeah
LT: that, that, that athlete can be somebody who's really good but not great. Yeah. And I, I will say Wendy's, if they continue to always do product, always be product, their ceiling is low. They've got to figure out what's the emotional connection- Yeah ... what's the brand positioning that's- Yeah ... going to elevate that and really say, "Who is truly the brand lover for, for Wendy's, and what's the emotional connection, uh, between th- what...
And what's their brand promise and how do they emotionally connect with them?" Uh, because as long as they stay low on, on the, on the ladder of, um, of just being products and features, their ceiling's gonna be low. So that's my view of that. They need all of our helps, right, Krista and DC? They do.
Krista Patterson: Yes.
DC: Well said, Larry.
Yes. Uh, Krista, any response to what Larry just said? And I, I, I do have a response.
Krista Patterson: I, I do think the audience is, is again an interesting topic because if you look at some of the campaigns, or at least one of them that Burger King came through with, it's targeted at boomers.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: Okay? Now, why are you targeting boomers when- Yeah
the, the spend is not happening in that generation- Exactly ... for you?
DC: Mm-hmm.
Krista Patterson: So I think that's an interesting thing to consider. The other thing is I... Trying to do too many things, I mean, I know you must have some, some nomenclature around the single idea that you wanna hold in a customer.
DC: Oh,
Krista Patterson: yeah. And I don't think that either one of them are being super clear there-
DC: They're not,
Krista Patterson: mm-mm
about the idea they want to own- Yep ... with their brand lover, who is not clear. Exactly. So there's a whole lot of pieces that need to be nailed down, I think, with this situation, more than one for sure.
DC: Uh, Larry, I, I, I agree with what you said and what Krista said originally, and what she just did as a, as a follow-up.
I wanna go back to your comment about Wendy's and the low headroom- Mm-hmm ... by focusing exclusively on product. Mm. This is what happens to brands and companies when they get into trouble.
LT: Yep.
DC: And La- And
LT: dare I say tech companies do this a lot, Krista, you and
DC: me. All companies do this. Yeah. All, all companies do this.
Absolutely. They fall in love with their product.
LT: Yep.
DC: Yep. And, uh, y- did you say Wendy's has had three different CEOs in the last three years?
LT: Less than three years, yep.
DC: Less than three years. Okay, so it, less than three years. Okay, so let's think about this. I'll take you all back to 2019. Um, Popeyes had a chicken sandwich that just took the industry by storm.
LT: Yep.
DC: Popeyes. This is 2019. So that was a product thing. That was not a brand thing. That was a product thing. Mm-hmm. A little known move is, um, November, December last year, a woman named Amy Alarcon, Alarcon, A-L-A-R-C-O-N. She was the woman that was the head chef for Popeyes when they came up with that 2019 sandwich, chicken sandwich.
Mm-hmm. She was moved to be the head chef at Burger King at the end of last year. So whatever product issues Burger King may have had with the Whopper, that's a sub-brand- Mm. Mm ... their signature sandwich, she worked that out. So once she worked out the product gap versus- Right ... Wendy's, it's over, Wendy's, 'cause you don't, that's all you talk about is W- That's right.
So now they got the chef that did the 2019 Popeyes sandwich. Right. What do you think she's gonna do with the Whopper? Like what do you think- Right ... she's gonna do? So just another thing about don't fall too much in love with the product. That's right. Yep. That can be taken away from you very quickly competitively.
Krista Patterson: Well, and it narrow- Yep ... it narrows your brand.
DC: Yes. Like,
Krista Patterson: and so it really limits whatever innovation you're going to have into- Yeah ... adjacent spaces. Truthfully.
LT: And it's not long-term ownable. Mm-mm.
Krista Patterson: Agree. Agree.
LT: Ooh, what a great conversation.
DC: Great conversation. Great conversation with another positioning expert.
LT: Yes. We love this. Love it, love it, love it. Mm-hmm. Oh, Krista, man, we, this has been so much fun. We're, we're at the end of this, and this is where we posit our learnings. Man, D, I have a lot of, a lot of learnings. I'm, so I'm gonna- Let's hear them ... I'm gonna rip them off real quick, okay? Okay. I've got eight.
Number one, uh, the foundational one that Krista said early on, PR teaches you to know your audience and be tight and super clear in your message so it gets communicated successfully. Brand Nerds, that is the essence of what great- Mm-hmm ... brand positioning is, too. Yeah. That's number one. Number two, find friends and colleagues like Patty Curtis, who shoot it to you straight.
Number three, be you. Don't let ambition get in the way of this, and that's, that, that's, uh, uh, uh, Krista's biggest F-up story, which is just, just a, uh, a very difficult thing for her to go to, go through. Mm-hmm. You learn from it so you don't do the same thing. Number four, you on your best day is authentic and slightly aspirational, and the best brands are that way.
Oh, that's so good. That's so good. Mm-hmm. Number five, Krista's second, uh, biggest F-up. I'm gonna use three words to spell out the learnings. You gotta know your value at all times, Brand Nerds. Know your value. Number six, managing a family is the same as managing a business team. So whether moms and s- there's some dads, when you're floating in and out of managing a family, think of it along those lines.
Number seven, collectively, we should really know about the impact of AI in the environment, question it, and do something about it. And number eight, cultivate and grow relat- relationships with family and friends at all times. Those are my eight. Those are awesome, Krista.
DC: Outstanding, Larry. All coming from Krista, our conversation with Krista.
It's at this part of the program that I attempt to do something, and I frankly, Krista, never know how it's going to work out. I go into these podcasts listening, learning, my mind is expanding, growing, but I don't know how the dots are going to connect for me.
LT: But they always do,
DC: Krista. They, they, they, they, they somehow fall into place, but I don't know when or how, and I say that, Krista, be- thank you, Larry.
I say that, Krista, because the attempt that I make is to describe to the Brand Nerds and to our guest what I believe this person is bringing to the planet that no one else can bring the way they bring it. So other people might be close, have variations of it, but if we don't get this gift from Krista, we're not gonna get it from anyone else.
And it's a valiant attempt that I make, and I'm gonna, uh, share with you now some thoughts. So in my takeaways, in our, uh, five question segment, when we asked you about your first branding experience, you talked about the VW and how you had a Rabbit, and then you e- graduated to a Jetta, and now you wanna get to that 15-window VW Bus.
And then you also said, uh, now you kinda do Audis, and VW as a company bought Audi. So they're all in the same group. And then you s- finished it off by saying, "It's kinda cool that I'm able to move up as life and income moves." And I'm sitting here thinking, that's interesting that VW bought Audi, and she drives VWs and Audis.
We know the Wrangler notwithstanding, and that's now a group of German cars. So I'm listening here, and we go down to Cisco, and, uh, to the question of who has or is having the most influence on your career, and you said it's a group of people, not one. We've, we've done hundreds of these shows. We normally get one.
Mm-hmm. Sometimes two. We don't get a group of people. Mm-hmm. You mentioned this group of people and you named them. And you say, "Hey, listen, we're not, we're not all necessarily, you know, working together today," but these f- four, five, six people had a defining impact on your career, uh, one of whom works with you now.
And I'm like, that's interesting that at Cisco, at a time where it was going through this extraordinary growth early years, that you had this group of people that influenced you. So I'm like, okay, group, VMDU- VW, Audi, group of friends. So then we go down here to, um, you having your children and how you stepped away from Cisco.
And you s- and you said, I f- I found a way to position, if you will, my time away. And you said, "Managing a team of people is like managing a group of children." I'm like, this is just this group thing again, one more time. And then it kinda went left for me when you gave the example of how you wanted to become a director, and to become a director, they said to you, "Hey, Krista, you've never fired anyone before.
You don't really have what it takes to be a director because to be a director, you've got to be cold-blooded. Okay? You gotta fire these people. So I'm just gonna give you three people. Trust me, Krista, trust us. They need to be fired. No need to ask us any questions. Just fire these people." And what does the great Krista do?
She says, "Yes, I'm gonna fire these people." And you said that you had to compartmentalize that experience in order to fire them, and then you have the John experience. You're at a school event and you look over and, "Oh, this is a former Cisco employee. Hey, don't I know you? Did we, didn't we work together at, at Cisco?"
To which John says, "Yes, we did, and you unceremoniously fired me." That's the one time that you did not have the group. You separated at that point. And then on the question, what are you most proud of, you did not just give one thing. You said family, children, siblings, coworkers, friends, another group of people, which leads me to this.
I thought at first, well, she's about integrity, but a different kind of integrity. Most people think integrity is about being honest. It's not. The, the Latin definition of the word integritas, T-A-S, is about wholeness, complete completeness, um, soundness, things coming together. That's what integrity means, and that's what I believe you are, Krista.
And to sum it up, I would say I believe you are a beacon of integrity in business and life, dot, dot, dot, for those who pay attention
Krista Patterson: Thank you. You're welcome. Wow.
DC: You're welcome.
Krista Patterson: Wow.
LT: You're welcome. That's great, D, I love that.
DC: You're welcome.
LT: Krista, any parting thoughts before we, uh, sign off on the, on, about, about this wonderful show that you've had with us?
Krista Patterson: Yeah, it is, has been wonderful. What a great way to spend my morning with the two of you. I love it. I love all that I have learned in this, in this conversation, for sure, and happy to see other people approaching problems with positioning the way that we do. I love it.
DC: Mm.
Krista Patterson: Really cool.
DC: Can I just say this, uh, really quickly, Larry, before we do the show close?
Yes. First is, uh, any businesses out there in tech and beyond, you need work around positioning, get to Krista and the Positioning Collective. We'd also like to do the work, but hey, I, I, I'm big up in Krista and the Positioning Collective right now. This is a different kind of a mind, Brand Nerds. Different kind of a mind, which equals a different kind of or- organization.
And second, Krista, can you tell us the firm that helped us connect?
Krista Patterson: Oh, gosh, I can.
DC: Okay.
Krista Patterson: Podpitch. Podpitch,
DC: okay. Yes. And who is, who's your specific rep's name?
Krista Patterson: Oh, I don't know.
DC: You don't know. That's all right. Okay. I don't know. So, so we wanna say Podpitch, thank you for bringing us Krista. Yes. Okay, Larry, show close.
LT: Yes, yes. This has been really, truly awesome. Thanks so much, uh, for listening, brand nerds. And the executive producers of Brand Speeds and Bytes are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, Larry Tamen, Jade Tate, and Todd Dio- Tom Dioro.
DC: The Podfather.
LT: That is he, and if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share.
And for those on Apple Podcast, if you are so inclined, we love those excellent reviews. We hope you enjoyed this podcast, and we look forward to next time, where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.