Wintersteel Part 2 - Cradle - Will Wight - Progression Fantasy Book - Fantasy Book

In Part 2 of Will Wight’s Wintersteel. The SideQuest Book Club Podcast hosts, Slava and Jonathan, dive deeper into breaking down major themes of character development, including Aethon’s unique sight, Mercy’s public humiliation, and Yerin’s intense training and evolving bond with her Blood Shadow. The discussion builds toward the final battle, where Yerin undergoes a powerful transformation that opens a conversation about archetypal icons and the deeper character truths they represent.

(00:00) Introduction and Technical Glitches
(01:05) Aethon’s Revelation and Abilities
(08:14) Mercy and Malice: Public Humiliation
(12:07) Yerin’s Training & Blood Shadow Dynamics
(20:04) Linden’s Point System & Character Dynamics
(27:03) Team Dynamics & Character Development
(30:35) Lyndon’s Strategic Growth
(32:54) Character Development & Team Dynamics
(35:59) Yerin’s Internal and External Struggles
(39:12) The Final Battle & Its Consequences
(48:49) Archetypal Truths & Character Icons

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Creators and Guests

Host

Jonathan

Host

Slava

Digital Strategist. Co-Host. Aspiring writer of stories.

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

If you’re a reader looking for something deeper or an indie author working on your book, The Side Quest Book Club is for you. We skip the usual book reviews and ratings. Each episode turns fun side quests into real lessons, so you’ll leave not just entertained, but with a better understanding of why storytelling matters.

SLAVA (00:00.056)
Hey Adventurers, the episode you're about to listen to is rough. The edit is very rough. We ran into a technical glitch during recording. We lost our tracks. Then the platform that we use, the people there were able to restore some of them. They were not restored to the highest quality. Something happened and it all got screwed up. So apologies for the rough edit. Thank you for listening and we hope you enjoy this regardless of how it sounds.

JONATHAN (00:47.342)
Welcome back SideQuesters to the world of Cradle, Wintersteel part 2. Last time on Wintersteel. Lyndon goes on a date, nothing else happened. Slava, over to you.

Well nothing of note happened. There were some fights, Lyndon goes on a date, apparently Mercy's somehow invested in Lyndon's love life. That was...

She's like the catalyst. If she can't be happy, everyone else should be happy. Which is like a reverse of how normal people act. Yes, Yep. That's true. But to start us off, we said last time that we were gonna talk about Aethin's ability to see, so let's talk about his Underlord revelation on the front end of this episode.

Or everybody else in this world, yes.

SLAVA (01:43.04)
Let's... You know what we should talk about? It's Aethans ability to see. I agree. My computer screen just... What the hell happened? Don't go away Jonathan.

This'll be a short. Old man learns how to use a computer.

Funny. Funny. You're hilarious.

I can tell by the laughing.

JONATHAN (02:07.404)
i mean if we started the last episode with laughter which process that's a laughter so sure makes sense

I'm just slowing the uptake, I need to find my notes.

your glasses on you'll be able to see them because they're right in front of you

Good point. That's a good thing I didn't know how to read. So... I will...

SLAVA (02:28.8)
Right, so back to serious things. When Aethon advances to Overlord, his revelation is pretty simple. I see. The statement, I guess, describes who he is more fully for us, reader, and it signifies that his identity is intrinsically tied to his perception and understanding, and that's why he can make the calculated moves that he can or that he does.

He is the one who saw. I think that's one of the more literal translations that's given to us in text. So I guess what we can derive from that is, Aethon had figured out what was going on with Shah Mi'ara being a monarch in disguise, even before Linden fully understood the implication as they were spoon-fed to him, to use your term, by Dros. And he was given like an altered memory.

of Surreal's visit. so I guess for me, what this demonstrates is Aethon's ability to piece together information in a way that transcends other people's abilities and then deduce things, truths, or certain aspects of a situation that others miss, even when presented with incomplete or maybe misleading data.

And again, to my initial point just a few seconds ago, that's why he's able to make the chest moves that he does.

Which begs the question, how far does that site go?

SLAVA (04:05.29)
It can't go too far because otherwise it would be a complete Deus Ex Machina and a pretty bad one. So he's probably able to see farther than his compatriots there, farther than maybe some of his enemies, farther than maybe some of the monarchs and those people who were above the monarchs and maybe even see a few of the chess moves of the Abaddon, but he can't be omnipotent.

Otherwise, that's no fun. He can just see everything and nothing happens and there's only one more book after that. If that's his power.

Right, right. Does he see further, do you think, the sage of a thousand eyes, Claudia, from the Irelia's homeland?

Now that is an interesting question. If I was to guess, and this is me guessing, I would say no. Maybe close to it, but not at the same level. Because, goes back to the Deus Ex Machina comment, I just don't see White doing that. They still have to have four more books of struggle and war and fighting and overcoming obstacles.

and achieving greater things and there's arcs for their personalities, arcs for their characters, arcs for their abilities as sacred artists. Not right now would be my guess, if he ever gets to that far. But what do I know? I'm a noob when it comes to Cradle.

JONATHAN (05:34.976)
Sure, but you're learning. You're probably a Jade by now. Maybe an

The least I could ask is to be a jade in your presence. Underdouche.

Ha ha!

JONATHAN (05:49.518)
the, the, didn't we talk about paths that we would be before? I can't remember what mine is. But, here are the limitations that we see from Aethon. One of the first ones that we see is when Aethon allows Linden to get his arm ripped off, right? Yeah. He's in a fight and then Linden asks him afterward, like, why did you let that happen? And he's like, I needed him to pull out that weapon so that I could retaliate. However, he said it, right? But.

If he had the deus ex machina level that we're talking about, then he would have seen that that wasn't gonna happen in time and he could have made a different move. He didn't. Linda got injured. So there are limitations, right? There's another moment where he is surprised and he's like, I hate surprises. I should have seen them coming or whatever he says, which I believe is actually the book before that.

No, that might be the same book. Book three where they get jumped by the Jai Long clan. That sounds right. Anyway, so there are limitations to his sight. However, we have a moment in this book where Aethon is following after Zeal and he's like, you know, it would be just wonderful if I was able to make this very special elixir that could fix you back to not necessarily perfect, but very, very close. And Zeal's like, no, I don't believe it. And he's like, I just so happen to have

all the ingredients and someone who can make it. And somebody who knows the, what do you call it? Not procedure, ceremony, whatever. Zeal stops, turns around and goes, I don't believe you. Keeps walking. Right. And then Aethon's like, how about I pay you upfront? And Zeal goes, I still don't believe you. But Aethon has the ability to see. He said, I was planning for this. Even though Zeal was.

not able to make it to top four, which is still very impressive for how injured he is. Also begs a different question that like, I guess if you used to be an Archlord but are no longer an Archlord, you can compete still? Question mark. That's not a question we need to answer, but just as a note, because he used to be an Archlord and now he's not. Anyway, yeah, so like, Aethyn, I think the way that his,

JONATHAN (08:14.222)
powers work are that he reads the threads of similar to to serial but on a much like more grounded level because he can still be surprised but I actually think that he probably sees further than the Sage of the Thousand Eyes. I don't have any proof for this.

Do tell. Why is that?

That's that's well done So the next thing we want to talk about

My opener.

You

JONATHAN (08:46.286)
Just because he's a main character. That's the episode.

So your pictographs end after just that statement and you can't tell us anything else. Well, if you ever, even in the course of this episode, think of something that backs up that claim, I'd like to hear it. Because in my mind, and I'm not going to repeat what I said a few minutes ago, but in my mind, stylistically, it makes more sense, at least in this book and maybe the next, that he's still at a lower level than that sage.

I could be completely wrong in my assumption or my claim because I also have nothing to back it up. I'm just looking at it from the side quest POV going, okay, Will White building a world, telling a story. At this point, the Dread Gods are yet to come, although they're very close. And by the end of the book, we know, my God, they are coming. I think it's still too soon, but whatever.

That you know not to belabor that point we'll figure it out I suppose unless you're telling me and hint wink wink I read book 10 and 12 and We do find out that his seeing ability is farther than the sage of a thousand eyes or audience Drop me the spoiler in the comments

set

JONATHAN (10:08.942)
That's actually something you never asked before you asking the audience to spoil it for you. I am it's taking you three years to do

Well, I thought it was appropriate in this situation because unlike the Cosmere where I am fully on board I have given myself over to you and Spence as a Student of the Cosmere to some degree here I said that I don't care about alright Whatever. It's not that I'm completely Uninterested in this story, but I am

Well...

JONATHAN (10:36.929)
a fit or two.

SLAVA (10:45.39)
less interested in the sense of the journey where I know this is a fast-paced book, a fast-paced series, let's just get to it, let's get it done, get it finished. pun. Yeah.

Yeah. From the cradle to the grave. Yes.

Well done. Well played, sir.

Honestly, when I first read that, I was taken aback and I was like, he did it. That's crazy. And the thing is like, the whole thing being a pun was lost on me. I just want to know how often he's just sitting alone and he thinks about it he's like, I got all these mother truckers fooled into loving this series and all it is is a big pun. I mean, I bet he does.

That makes me like him even more. Drinking his whiskey on the rocks, just laughing maniacally in his armchair. Probably. Late at night.

JONATHAN (11:37.336)
But no, I don't have any other data, like I said, about the Sage of the Thousand Eyes. She's not even really around in the next couple books, honestly. Because they run off, you know, into the great beyond to deal with the dread gods and level up and stuff like that,

Well, all evidence aside, I say we move on to something you pointed out before we started recording that's actually kind of interesting. It's Mercy and her mother, so Mercy and Malice, talking about her loss.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so Mercy faces some public humiliation and then Malice summons Mercy to her chambers, which was not done in private so that adds to the already public humiliation and she allows the entire Akura clan to witness this interaction, if you want to call it that, and I don't know why but she ensures that Mercy's failure, quotes over that, which is really a failure too, it is a failure.

at the base level, but she ensures that that event, which in this culture will be perceived as a grave failure and even like bringing shame to the family, is publicly disproved.

JONATHAN (12:53.326)
Wait. was just when I was saying that. In front of Yaron too. Yaron? family. But like, their prize fighter.

Yep, displayed in front of you.

SLAVA (13:02.734)
They're Price's fighter and Mercy's buddy, right? They're friends. At least Mercy really likes Yeren. Whatever Yeren's affections are like they're over for Mercy, which there are some, but Mercy is the happy-go-lucky one who really likes Yeren. So it adds, it compounds the shame, right? Amplifies the shame, if you will. And then there's the verbal dressing down that she gets. Malice tells Mercy directly that she is a disappointment and that she has dragged her name through the mud.

and what everybody wants to hear from their parents that she's let her down. So I like the fact that Yaren comes to her defense. No, not at all. But I do like that Yaren comes to her defense and she confronts Malice about her treatment of Mercy. But of course, Malice is any good narcissist parent, justifies the actions in this pseudo profound way.

You to feel not go-

SLAVA (14:00.332)
that the Akura name is greater than any one part. And sure, at its base, again, that's a true statement. But the way this is executed, the way that it's foisted, all this debt of responsibility is foisted upon Mercy is horrendous. That doesn't bolster anybody to do better. Maybe in this context and in this culture, sure, it forces people out of fear or shame or

other things to act better but does it really endear people and embolden them and challenge them to do better? Not in any real way, not in any authentic way, but that's just me.

Even when we get Mercy's POV, she's like, the losing is bad enough, why do I have to then deal with the public shaming? And the thing is, I'm within reason, I think public shaming is okay, if it's justified. This instance, I understand, different world, might makes right, et cetera, et

Yeah. If does something bad. Right. If somebody does something truly awful in public, they should be called out in public. Correct. But losing a match when you already won so many is not a place for you just to get crapped on in front of everybody. No matter how consequential that match might have been. This is where you praise in public and confront in private.

Right, but Malice cares well, so much more about her name than she will admit.

SLAVA (15:41.964)
Yep, I agree with that.

So, Akura House lives on through Yeren, but, yeah. I like Fury's response where Malice is like, you need to watch this. And he's like, no, I don't. Whoop, closes the window. I'm surprised Charity didn't do the same thing, but I think that Fury has a different relationship with Malice than Charity does. Side quest for you. Do you think we ever meet Mercy's father?

Yeah.

SLAVA (16:06.177)
I'd imagine so also.

SLAVA (16:10.606)
Now that's a question, yes, but also no, because if he hasn't been around, unless he's pivotal to the plot, which he might be, I don't see a reason for him to be, so if I was a betting man, 60 % no, 40 % yes, if that's a suitable answer for you.

Sure, sure. Yeah, he walked out for a remnant in Sacred Valley and never came back, so, you know.

Yeah. You know, that pack of smokes must be the gas station far, far away.

true gas station is pretty far away but let's keep moving on so Yaron gets trained last last episode by the winter sage we see Yaron in a battle

JONATHAN (16:59.918)
Hey, it's dangerous to go alone. So don't. You should always side quest with friends. Hit that subscribe button and join the party.

JONATHAN (17:13.048)
So, all that said, they have put all their money on Yeren winning this thing. And Yeren goes on to, I'm kinda jumping around here a little bit, but she fights Kalan Archer, and he thinks that he's gonna get one over on her. He doesn't. She beats him. But she, it almost feels like she's holding back a little bit with the fight because she kind of hesitates, I guess I'll call it, to finish him.

when he's been like dismembered, cause he has a blood shadow as well. And, or not a blood shadow, he has the weeping dragon and her blood shadow starts feasting on him. And then she starts fighting her own shadow for a little bit, trying to, you know, stop her, her, stop Ruby from, you know, doing that. But at the end of the fight,

because Yaren does win. It says that she looks at her blood shadow and she notices the look on her face and doesn't even need telepathy to know what she's thinking. But she's full. She's been, you know, satisfied.

Satiated.

Yes, with power and blood. So now the Akura clan is all in on Yaren winning this thing for them. And there's a kind of a, I'll call it a heated discussion, right? Where afterward, Lyndon breaks into her room. The Nine Cloud Court voice is annoyed. And they said they're going to start charging him and maybe pressing charges if he keeps breaking in like that. And Charity's there.

JONATHAN (18:56.75)
The Winter Sage is there and the Winter Sage has her stark opinion that they need to contain Ruby and Charity goes, no, we are going to feed that thing. Which is the correct answer in terms of might makes right because the Winter Sage is, I'll just say it, she's kind of a purist, right? Like, well, you shouldn't be like that. And it's like, yeah, but I am.

Either we're gonna use it to our advantage or like we're not. And we're not is not an option because she basically won the fight for them. So it'd be dumb not to continue to use Ruby as a weapon, right?

And it's good on charity because acting on behalf of you know, a Coramalis, she does overrule the sages insistence and instead, you know, she said this needs to be improved given what a huge advantage it is, meaning the blood shadow. And that offers an excellent willpower and training.

Yeah, they only have two weeks for that extra training.

Yep, and I guess if they were more objective and it's easy to say this as the reader, but if they were more objective they would see that Ruby is developing some sort of independence, but she's also cooperating. She's not 100 % trying to take over Yaren like it was or she was when she was underdeveloped.

JONATHAN (20:33.41)
Yeah, more of a mindless bloodshadow as opposed to an exact bloodshadow, I guess I'll call it. Yeah. So we're going to skip for a second. Linden going to collect points, which he loves to do. All right, Slava's clearly got some thoughts on that.

Yeah.

SLAVA (20:57.646)
Well, not a lot of thoughts, but yeah, he really loves to collect his points. And that says it all.

Completionist what do you what do you you play video games? He's a completionist. What do you want from him?

Yes, I play video games and I am also a completionist, but in world, in character, this is Lyndon trying to get the most out of everything. And yes, before anybody comes at me, I understand exactly why and I don't necessarily blame him for it. Like don't do that finger wag at Yaren, excuse me, at Lyndon, but...

This is what makes him a little bit of a dork. And that's okay.

little bit he's a hundred percent a dork yeah

SLAVA (21:45.206)
Okay, 100 % dork. It makes him a dork, and that's why we love him, but it still, you know, has me rolling my eyes a little bit.

Fair enough. So we're gonna pause on him for a second and then you can tell me all about your thoughts on Lyndon and his point system development things. One of Yeren's prizes is a, basically a blood tablet. No, no, one of her prizes is from the Blood Sage who comes to give her her gift in person on behalf of Ragon Shen because Ragon Shen, as a reminder to the folks, listening has made a

deal with the Dread God cults basically and he gives her a heart's gem which is an ultimate source of blood aura for Ruby which she will need and honestly it kind of feels like he's doing it specifically to continue his research because no one else has gotten as far as they as he has before with their blood shadow and it's condensed blood of the Red Moon Herald who was once the Blood Sage's own blood shadow

Which that's just an interesting, like, world-building moment, right? Like, his own bloodshadows split off from him and became a herald in and of their own right. He tells Yeren not to trust her bloodshadow because his betrayed him. And so he fused with his bloodshadow instead of his remnant to become a herald, but his bloodshadow fled to become a herald, as I'm kind of repeating myself at the moment. So they couldn't become a monarch.

Yeah.

JONATHAN (23:21.056)
and he tells her not to fuse with hers until she's a sage. Yarin, prickly spicy young lady, gives him a piece of her mind, basically tells him he's an idiot and funny enough, Charity offers to help her with better insults for next time, because Charity also doesn't like the bloodsame.

Yeah, like that that was good. I forgot that until you just mentioned it, but that was a good a good little bit in the book

Honestly, and we kind of said this last time, the book moves so fast, you kind of miss some of this stuff, you know?

Yeah, and there are some things for me as I've said in the previous episode my brain just turned off because I was Looking forward to the next big bad Fast thing happening the action happening. So when it does slow down for just a wee bit my brain shuts down and is waiting for the next thing to happen the next big thing to happen, so that's the Problem for me personally, but as you said it also moves pretty fast. Otherwise, so there's so much

that unless you're reading for absolute comprehension, which we kind of should be in some way for this podcast, since we're going to dissect the book, but it's impossible to do that with the lives and the schedules that we have. So you're reading it as best as you can. You're taking notes. I'm taking notes, you know, dumping them into our document so we can talk about this in some way that resembles an actual book club and people coming with their ideas and thoughts and commentary.

SLAVA (24:53.942)
you miss a lot of stuff and you're the person that's read this two or three times and so you have well two or three ways of looking at it two or three ways of retaining the information because you read it for fun you probably read it for fun then you read it for this podcast then you told me you'd be listening to some portions of the book preparing for this episode so you have a lot more of it embedded in your memory than i do

Same goes for like when we read it, right? Like I'm like, what's that kid's name again who did the thing? And you're like, that's not his name, because you've read that a dozen times, right? So same, same, different book, different genre. But I have honestly tried to integrate some of Yaron's speech patterns into my life a little bit.

because they're so funny. It's just, I love it so much. know, these one-liners bleed and bury me. You're looking at me, who am I supposed to ask, right? It's just, think some of the earlier books we did, you what's your favorite one-liner? But it's just such fun writing. And I know that I'm just kinda dweebin' out a little bit here, but I've read a bunch of other books and you know, the ones that I complain about, I actually put effort into hating.

which is like two or three max. And then there's just a whole bunch of books that are like meh, that I'll never suggest for us to read. And then there's stuff like this where it's like, this is a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun.

It is lot of fun and because it scratches an itch or is nostalgic to our love for anime, we both grew up watching Pokemon, Dragon Ball Z, I moved quickly into anime like Goes in the Shell and Death Note. Nevertheless, that aside, we're both fans of anime. So reading it in book form, that's fun. When the characters are funny and interesting,

SLAVA (27:03.158)
and you have somebody like Yaron with her quips and one-liners that are totally the opposite of foreign. They're totally natural and familiar to us as Americans. But yeah, this is set in an Eastern setting that makes it even more fun to be immersed into this world.

Yep, it's got the I think most animes have some sort of tournament arc, which is a good time but in terms of narrative literature, which we like about the Cosmere like there's parallel narratives going on with Linden, Yaron, Aethon, Mercy. They're all running concurrently even when people get pulled out of the tournament, right? And then we still follow them around partially now.

You can't follow everyone around at the same percentage. So we mostly are following Yaron and Linden because Linden is our main character. it all in all ends up being that Linden is the main character. Yeah. Why? That's it. That's curious. Why? Why do you think that that happens?

Don't forget that sometimes.

SLAVA (28:07.992)
Well, because Athen and Yaren and Mercy have endeared themselves, at least to me as a reader, so now they're a pack. Yes, we started with Lyndon, and he's our main guy. That's who we start with. then... Gratitude. Apologies. But as we move on in the story, he gets attached to these people.

who are more than just somebody helping him get to the next thing, or more than a side character he meets here and is with him for a chapter or a book. These folks are now his tribe. So by book eight, I see them as a collective, as a whole. So I don't necessarily view him as a main guy and he has a girlfriend that can kick some ass with swords. I see him and Yaren and Mercy and Ethan

as group now. So it's hard for me to keep in my head that he's the main guy. And maybe he's not. Maybe it's the way Will intended to write this is we start with one guy, but now we're following four people.

I think that, I'd say that Linden is still the main character through the whole series. And we have the guide who is Aethon, right? We have the companion slash love interest who is Yeren. We have not quite the Samwise Gamgee through Mercy, but close-ish. We have the reluctant hero also through Zeal.

And we have another guy, Orthos, that disappears, right? So we have a really strong cast, to your point.

SLAVA (29:54.796)
We do. And I suppose you make a valid point. think, yes, Lyndon's still the main guy despite how close this group is and what roles they play in world in the literary sense. But for whatever reason, I come to these books and have for the last probably two or three, even though I've never said this in a podcast, but in hindsight and thinking about it as you were talking, as that thought popped in,

Like, but I really view them as a whole. The team is the character to me. The team is the main character to me. Whatever. We don't have to dwell on that.

Yeah, let's keep rolling on. Let's talk just quickly about Lyndon and his points. As a quick reminder, Lyndon goes out on the battlefield where Fury and Pride are. They're kind of holding down the front lines. When they get there, there's a big fight going on. And was it Fury? I think it was Fury said, you know, these things are worth these points, these things are worth these points, and they're kind of, they're split off into teams. Pride is put in.

Linden's team again. He's not happy about that. Linden makes a plan, does the numbers. He's, he's almost like Jean. He's crunching the numbers and figuring out like, actually, if we do this, this, and this, we can get diamond veins and this other stuff. If you guys work really hard. So he devises a plan. And then, when he gets everybody on board with the plan.

he starts executing. And there comes a moment when pride has to basically come to terms with the fact that the diamond veins that they can afford and purchase would be actually quite strategically useful for Lyndon to buy and then absorb into himself. so he's like, all right, just use these. But it takes three days for that to take place, but it really gives Lyndon a leg up.

JONATHAN (32:05.702)
as a character once he absorbs that power item.

Yeah, it was nice to see pride being less like pride and looking at the bigger picture. It's a tiny one.

a small moment of growth for him and then linden starts just what that's right

Yeah, yeah, he certainly does and I think giving him this moment is good for his, you know, whatever self-esteem self-worth view of self is he has jumped again, but this time because of the team that he has I think he's no longer grabbing at it like some fevered starved malnourished orphan.

He sees this as more, this is a growth. this is good. And he is proud of himself and he's happy and he sees the value of his growth, but he's no longer as much of a, I don't wanna say coward. That's not the word I'm looking for. He's more mature at this point, right?

JONATHAN (33:16.47)
Yeah, think it's... I think all you really... I would sum everything he just set up into just he's developing as a character. He's growing into himself.

Yeah, that's fair. There's a better way to say it, and I wanted to say it, but I couldn't. But yes.

All right, take the next 30 minutes and just babble on and then I'll try to summarize it with a single sentence at the end. You got to do that. Nobody wants to listen to that. So when Lindon's on the battlefield, that's also true. You don't. Dodgy shows up and starts basically badgering Lindon that he like made a deal with the dragons and that's why they're not fighting. And Mayra reprimands Dodgy for being an idiot and

I don't know

JONATHAN (34:00.966)
so Lyndon just can't, he basically isn't allowed to have more than four friends is really what it boils down to. Not in this world. Well, you made it this far.

Why not go a step further? Rate the show. It helps more than you think.

Zephor, Aethon, Zeal, Linden, no, Aethon, Zeal, Yaren, Mercy. I'm not counting Orthos and Little Blue because they're not humanoid. Well, I guess Little Blue's kind of, yeah, Dros. All right, so he just doesn't have any room for more friends. It's really what it boils down to. So anyway, moving on. It's time for Yaren to fight the final battle with Sepharna Toth and...

or drus-

JONATHAN (34:46.06)
I've been practicing saying her name better so that I don't sound like Slava.

What's that now? That was the penitent.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the next, no, actually the next fight is Yan-Xiu-Mei and her bestial blood shadow facing Yarin against her blood shadow. So Yarin and Ruby versus Yan-Xiu-Mei and Crusher. And Yan-Xiu-Mei kind of used the same tactic that she did before and enhanced herself to create a separate like,

beastial creature instead of using her blood shadow to create a mirror image of herself because if I remember the stats correctly from I believe it was like Ghostwater, the benefit in the short term is a lot greater because what Yarin did required a lot more work to actually accomplish. So, Yan-Chou Mei wins the first match and then we cut over to Yarin and her blood shadow, Ruby, arguing.

and yelling that the power that they could have if Yaren wasn't afraid of her and Charity pops in there and encourages them to cooperate because if they don't they'll lose which matters to the Ikaros. I Shue on the other hand tells her to break Ruby down for power just raw power so

JONATHAN (36:24.61)
That's the not only internal struggle that Yaron is dealing with, but also external struggle at the same time.

Yes, and eventually it's Yeren's idea for them to fuse together, which gets into the last fight. But I think for Yeren...

SLAVA (36:47.926)
She's more practical than the other folks around her, a lot more practical. So she sees this cooperation, even though she gets into a little fight with Ruby, she sees their cooperation and their later fusion a much greater reward than consuming the blood shadow or dicing her up for power. However you just said it. The greater reward return on investment, if you will.

is them fusing together and working together. And he and she eventually talks Ruby into doing that.

Well, that doesn't happen right away, but yes, that does happen. That happens during the battle with Sepharna Toth. So basically just a little correction here is in her second battle, Yeren and Ruby work together and they like cover for each other while they're fighting. Crusher and Yanshou Mei are frozen because of Yeren's abilities that she learned from the Winter Sage and

Ruby takes that moment to use a binding in the sword in one of the earlier rounds that was used with Charity's Advice or picked up with Charity's Advice, Netherclaw, which is a black murderous sword with a forger binding and forms a bloodclaw and swipes down with Archlord level power and that blows Yon Shomei out of the water. So they're one and one.

Yeah, Chinese night blood.

JONATHAN (38:18.904)
Chinese Nightblood. Yes, pretty much. And then there's the third round. Yan Shoumei reveals she also has an Archlord weapon, a bow that shoots silver and red aura that shreds its targets from the inside out. Ruby saves Yeren by pushing Crusher into one of these arrows, and she's annihilated as well.

which then gives Yeren the moment and chance to slice Yan Shoumei's throat with an endless sword, which works. And then as the battle concludes, she is returned to Malice's chambers, not the waiting room, which is where she normally goes. And Malice explains that Shen was trying to get a hold of her, Ragon Shen. And so Malice brought her to her own chambers instead because...

Regan Shen is trying to attempt to bribe her the way that he bribed Aethon. So that would be what Malice is up to, right? So that gets Yeren to the final two and I'm sure that the clan, the Bleeding Phoenix, is not thrilled because they don't control Yeren, right? So Yeren realizes in the conversation with Malice that Malice's life is in her hands because

Yeah, absolutely.

JONATHAN (39:41.876)
If Yeren wins Penance, she could also kill Malice. Doesn't have to be an enemy. She could just not like Malice enough to just do it. And Yeren's kind of person who might do that. And this is the moment the... Yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna say. This is the moment that you were talking about earlier where Malice is reprimanded by Yeren, who's kinda taking it... She's like, well, I've got, you know, the power. Let me... Let me just give you a piece of my mind.

Yeah Talks more shit about mercy

JONATHAN (40:12.022)
Which I don't think anybody else would have done that with Malice, besides Yaron.

I don't think so, not at all. Ethan would have jumped around the issue, skirted the issue, tried to be diplomatic. Lyndon would have just, you know, pooped his pants and said gratitude. And Yaron is the one who has enough chutzpah to be like, you know what? Nah, I don't like you. I don't like what you're saying about my girl, Mercy. And it might not be my girl, Mercy, maybe just the principal that pisses Yaron off.

probably both. here's the thing, at this juncture, Yaron likes Mercy enough to hang around, right? Like even though they're fighting each other and whatever, it's like they understand it's for a greater cause. Yaron certainly likes Mercy more than her family.

Have you had friends where you liked them a lot, you got along with their family, or adjacent folks, or just pieces of garbage?

Hmm, that's a curious question.

SLAVA (41:08.526)
Well let me tone it down. They don't have to be pieces of garbage. They just have to be somebody that you didn't care for. Like you didn't mesh well with them, you didn't like them, there were some character flaws as you saw them. They're like, yeah, I don't like your brother, mother, father, sister, but you're okay.

Yes, but I can't mention who they are. I'll just go with the-

That's Spencer.

JONATHAN (41:35.02)
You

Got me. That's funny. That's super funny. man, that's good. That'll make it into the episode. That's a good one.

Yes. Yes, yes.

The funny thing is, Malice threatens Yeren with her, you know, you'll have to face my disappointment. And Yeren's like, shh. Okay, buddy. She's gonna bring everything she has, not because her life is on line, but because she, you know, has a relationship with Lyndon and Aethon and Mercy. Then Malice steps into giving Yeren some advice on how to manifest the sword icon, which is actually useful information.

Okay.

JONATHAN (42:22.892)
and how she needs to symbolize swordsmanship by herself or in her own right and not just be a copy of her master, which also leads to Yeren's Overlord revelation, right? Where she's like, do you remember the Overlord revelation she has?

Yes, standby having my nails.

I think it's not being someone else, but I didn't take a note, so...

Yeah, I have it somewhere in my notes here. Here it is. Her revelation is understanding that she is not him, meaning her old sage, and that she is not trying to be him. This revelation is prompted during the deal with Min Shui, the winter sage, who pushes Yeren to follow her master's footsteps, yet reminding her that he's the reason she's alive and that she has his path.

his sword, his remnant, and his clothes, Yeren pushes back against the idea, stating that she's not her master, and trying, and not trying to be, and then she advances to overlord. Yeah, that's the revelation. She's not him and not trying to be him.

JONATHAN (43:34.562)
correct. We are again getting ahead of ourselves because she doesn't learn that in this conversation with Malice, but it is, it does help her to get there, right? Because we are brought back to Yaron learning what prizes she gets. One of those prizes is the, I'm going to, I was going to call it the rainbow bridge. It's the moonlight bridge. One of those prizes is the moonlight bridge, which lets you travel lots of distances.

once a day or once every three days, can't remember which. And Ruby, because she helped win, is like, I wanna use this, I wanna go see Linden. And Yaron's like, no, we should maybe try it with the Sages first and figure it out. And Ruby just goes rogue and just does it. And so she's-

Love is a crazy thing man, love will make you do crazy stuff. Yes. We haven't talked about this but Ruby has a little crush on Lyndon. And Lyndon doesn't want any part of it.

the perception. He's not sure what to do. Yeah. Yep.

He sure as hell doesn't want to kiss her and breaks her little snake bloodshot of heart.

JONATHAN (44:42.286)
Yyyyy

Little heartbreaker lended over here apparently.

Yeah, Ruby is now trapped with Lyndon on the front lines for at least a day or three days or whatever it is because she can't go back until the Moonlight Bridge is ready. Yep, so that's a fun little moment. But let's fast forward as we wind down here to the final battle, right? Where, as you said earlier, Yaren and Ruby merge with one another, which is, I think I'd call it a trope in anime style things.

has to recharge.

JONATHAN (45:17.72)
feel like that's fair.

Yeah, that's fair. But it's one of those tropes that we accept because it's done okay here and it's a staple of the genre, so I'm not knocking it.

Yup, so Yarin and Ruby find themselves in the waiting room. Yarin is frustrated all around. Ruby makes a point that she might not have to advance with her. They focus on preparing for the battle. Saffarnatoth walks out with smug confidence. She got some devices and things as well that I can't remember the names of off the top of my head. And she uses them. One of them's like an engine, something or other, whatever, thinking that she's gonna do a really good job. They fight.

Yeren and Ruby hold their own. The battle turns in their favor. Yeren again touches the sword icon but loses concentration. And Saffronatoth takes the opening to slice off her head. One point to Saffronatoth. Charity and Min Shuei tell her she must master the sword icon or not use it at all. Which is a weird thing to say mid-battle, right? Everything is literally on the line at the moment.

Yeah, that's for sure.

JONATHAN (46:22.154)
Okay, second match. She feels it more closely, but is just a little bit off. Match two also goes to Safarnatoth. I don't remember how many battles they do. It can't be. So, match two goes to Safarnatoth. Again, Charity and Minchewe argue over whether not Yeren should try for the sword icon.

Five. Let's figure it out.

JONATHAN (46:50.614)
Yeren feels Ruby's despair, which that doesn't sound like a great sign, and she asks Ruby whether she could win if she lost her spirit and body, that they could split again after she's afraid but willing. Ruby says no, not certain it could be done, and Lynden would hate her for it. That answer enrages Yeren, and she asks Ruby what she wants, which hasn't happened yet.

three battles.

JONATHAN (47:20.454)
She's always been fighting her, fighting her, fighting her, this is the first time that she's said, hey, what do you want? And Ruby's response is kind of touching for being a blood shadow. She said she just wants everybody to live. Which is ironic.

Well I was right, it is three battles. Match one, Yaren and Ruby hold their own, but Sephara capitalizes on them working together as they touch the sword icon, or Yaren touches the sword icon and loses concentration. Sephara defeats her, winning the first match. Sephara beats her just by a hair, because she's a hair off, so putting her 2-0.

Then after the second loss Yarin and Ruby make the unprecedented decision, in my notes here as I wrote it, becoming an overloaded Herald. And with her new power, Yarin quickly defeats Sephora, cutting her in half within seconds of the battle start. And this ends the tournament.

That is what the whole book was leading up toward. Now there's a whole bunch of other stuff that happened like we talked about, but thoroughly entertaining to me to have such a climax where we lost Ruby but gained a Yeren Ruby, if you will, and now Yeren remembers being both Yeren and Ruby but feels more like herself.

Yeah and she's an Over the Lord Harold which is something new for everybody.

JONATHAN (48:49.55)
that has never happened before, right? Right, right, right. So tournament's basically over. I wanna talk about one sort of connection point here as we wrap up the episode, which might be a short talk, might be a long talk. We will find out. Icons. Sword icon, void icon, strength icon. They're these magical markers in world that are kind of these Jungian reflections of archetypal truths.

that each of the characters internalize and so like Lyndon's void icon is the acceptance of his own nature to be hungry to have an absence but still have ambition. Yeren's sword icon is this archetypal truth of mastery and form as her identity. Aethin's manipulation of systems. there's those. Fury also taps into the strength icon. I believe Norstrider taps into this.

The dragon icon or the strength icon might not happen in this book, But this idea of archetypal truths speaking to each of these different characters, I would say adds to the fact that they feel real as well.

Yeah, and to your point about the Jungian thing, to manifest an icon, an individual needs to deeply understand and sense their Madra and regularly train their willpower. So not even in the introduction part of a book, but you're going to boil it down to individual parts and pick one of them. I think that kind of makes sense. I think what you're saying kind of makes sense. So I'm agreeing. Because there's also this...

idea that a specific icon that manifests when it does, it depends on the nature of one's Madhra and how do I say this, maybe a concept or an understanding of your core or of your identity.

JONATHAN (50:50.19)
that.

And that works for Yaren because she has to... And that works for Yaren because her journey or her ability, let's put it that way, her ability to manifest the sword icon, and yes, her journey getting there, but her ability to manifest the sword icon I think involves understanding that she needs to quote, symbolize her swordmanship in her own right.

I thought.

SLAVA (51:21.962)
and not be a copy of her master. Lyndon, Lyndon at the Underlord stage manifests the void icon. His revelation is tied to the concept of emptiness, a bottomless pit. He proclaims something, if I'm remembering correctly, like I am the end or something, it's somehow that phrase stuck out of my head and I don't have the book in front of me. I just have the notes. And this manifestation is significant, significant event in Lyndon's life.

That's even noticed by the monarchs. He has a new badge crafted by Aaron. It's etched to the character for empty or unsold. So it's connected to his beginnings. This is said in Sacred Valley terms and directly reflects his icon, but he is now far, far above anything he was when he was unsold.

100%. So there's, won't get into all of this here. Pull up that link I sent you. But Linden sort of leans towards two different Jungian archetypes, the seeker and the shadow. The shadow is this dark self, the repressed self, and the seeker is more of the wanderer, explorer. I'll give you a brief description of the two. then Slava, I want to get your take on.

Which one does Lyndon really fall into more? So the seeker is driven by a deep yearning of something beyond the known, of purpose and identity and transcendence, rejecting comfort of the familiar and instead wandering into the unknown territory, physically, psychologically. The shadow on the other hand represents the unconscious aspects of the self, fears, desires, hopes, traits we deny or suppress or reject and

It's part of us we'd rather hide but must face to become whole. Both of these archetypes, within reason, end up being part of who make up Lyndon as a whole. So my question to you Slava is, which one is more Lyndon based on where we're at in the series?

SLAVA (53:29.966)
glad you qualified your question because I think he is a shadow.

I'm gonna find my First, nature.

Okay. I think he is a shadow.

I'm not done diet driving.

Is that your voice? Icon? says the die driver. So he is the shadow because of his fear of never being enough. His hunger, his desperation. He's even reckless at times. He seeks the things that he cannot have. So he's primarily a shadow. But that drives him to be a seeker also, like because of his desires.

JONATHAN (53:47.726)
Alright, carry on.

SLAVA (54:15.32)
to be something more than he is because of his fear of not being enough. goes into situations and he literally seeks out things and he's driven to rise above his original state, which is unsold. So I wouldn't be able to put a percentage on it. And I don't think it's 50 50 for sure. Like if I had, you know, gun to my head, say how much it definitely not be 50 50.

If I'm forced to answer that, maybe 85, 15, 90, 10, but he's definitely a shadow first and foremost, but it does drive him to do what you described as a seeker does.

I think you're right, but for the wrong reasons. So, as the books progress, he steps into, you you talked about this earlier, more of himself. His character develops more, which I would say is the shadow. But he's certainly not at the percentage that you've offered because there's four books left.

Enlighten me.

SLAVA (55:18.094)
Well then, I can't answer the question. That's a moot point that I just made. Because I haven't read all the books.

No, no, but you're on the right track and the reason I say it's for the wrong reasons is because he's still too polite. Right? So he's still seeking, but he has not integrated the shadow archetype, his dark repressed self. You're everything I bet. I can't even get my jokes out. I'm sounding like you.

Apologies.

SLAVA (55:45.998)
That's what Post-It is for.

you better leave that one in. So he is stepping into that and as he continues to grow in power, like the dark side, the dark self, the repressed self surfaces. And I told you this, I don't know, four or five books ago where it's like his whole gratitude, apologies thing, it diminishes, right? Like he hasn't really said that this book for the most part. And it continues to go that direction because he gets more and more powerful.

to the point where he has to, like he's not making friends with the monarchs and that's going to affect the rest of the books. So he's gonna have to deal with them sooner than later. And when he deals with them, they are not going to respond well if he continues to be the seeker, where it's gratitude, apologies, whatever. He's gonna have to integrate the dark self, the repressed self. So I'd say right now he is so

60-40? 60 % seeker, 40 %? It might even be 70-30 at the moment. But there's gonna be a change that happens very soon to help him start to channel more of that. And honestly, it's basically just him getting kicked around, but not realizing that he's actually way more powerful than he gives himself credit for. And then starts to be like, okay, I'm sick of this. I also think somebody gives him a pep talk, I can't remember. But that sounds right, might be Mercy.

Actually.

SLAVA (57:14.395)
So what I'm hearing you say is that I'm actually wrong for all the reasons because you kind of inverted what I just said completely.

I inverted it, but the thing is, you're right, but for the wrong reasons. And I guess I also should have added, you're right, just not yet.

Okay, I'll take it. I'll take it. That is because I haven't read the books in which because there's four more Well forget four there's gonna have been two more books. He becomes the shadow that I described in future books Not in this book. Yes

Right like

JONATHAN (57:47.692)
Right. Right. So you're right for the wrong reasons and not yet. Do you guys follow that? Drop it in the comments. Let me know if you follow that. Don't shake your head at me.

I haven't a little red joke in my head but I won't say it. Because it's probably dead by now. I'll email it to you.

Yeah, there you go. All right, guys, that's it. That's the episode. Thanks for joining us today on SideQuest, part two, Winner's Steal. Can't wait to have you back next time when we hear from JT, Spencer, and Casey. Gonna be a fun one, as always. Make sure you tune in. Like and subscribe. Do you have a group of friends that you read Cradle with, or is that just me?

I don't think it's just you, but I hear that Spencer's bringing that annoying brother that you hate.

I see that you're trying to do a callback right now in the humor. It's not working. Yep. Thanks for trying. time. I have a favor to ask you. If you like what we're doing, the simplest way to support the show is to hit subscribe. In return, we'll keep leveling up, we'll listen to your feedback, and read authors that you suggest. And of course, we'll take side quests along the way.

SLAVA (58:47.149)
That's it folks.