Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The voice of the American Consortium for Equity in Education at ace-ed.org | Host Larry Jacobs facilitates rich discussions with innovative educators, thought leaders, authors and the leaders within the education industry to promote equity, access and opportunity for every student in every school.
I'm David Cicero, and this
is Education Talk Radio.
Welcome to the show.
Let's jump right in.
So just out of Morningstar and the
Construction Education Foundation,
roughly eighty-four percent of
voters support increasing funding
for skilled trades education, making
it one of the most popular areas
of investment for high schools.
Around thirty percent of high school
students report taking a skilled
trades course, and more than half
of Gen Z says they're actively
considering a career in the trades.
And that is a big shift.
Now, I'm not interested in framing
this as a trades versus college
or trades versus academics.
There's a bigger question
being asked here.
Now, part of that question is practical.
Students are going to enter a workforce
that is changing rapidly, and helping
them develop valuable skills is a
responsible thing for schools to do.
But we have to be careful here,
'cause there's a side question,
one that's more human, I think,
maybe even more fundamental.
Who will these young people become?
How will they understand themselves?
Not just what they do, how will
they understand who they are, their
strengths, their relationships,
and their place in the world?
Because no matter what the economy
looks like 10 years from now,
students will still need to learn,
they'll still need to adapt, they'll
still need to grow and contribute
something uniquely their own, we hope.
And maybe that's the
deeper work of education.
To help us think about this, today
I'm joined by Alexander Kopelman.
He's the founder and CEO of the Children's
Art Guild, a nonprofit that works with
schools, educators, and families to
create environments where children
can explore their authentic selves.
His new book, For Real: Helping
Children Remain Their Authentic
Selves in a Limiting World, is a
thoughtful exploration of what it
means to grow up and stay true to
yourself in a world that's constantly
telling you who you should be.
Alex, it's great to have you with us.
Thanks for, thanks so much for joining.
Um, thanks very much for inviting me on.
I'm, I'm really looking
forward to this conversation.
Now, I, I spent some time in your book
and in, and, and in reading, I was
inspired by the stories of your early
work in afterschool programs where you
said, from what you were seeing and
learning in those programs, that led
you to deepen and refine your mission
of, quote, "helping children transcend
limiting expectations and explore
and develop their authentic selves."
Talk to us about your experience that
led to this refined mission, and when
you describe creating a space where young
people can explore their authentic selves,
what specifically made that possible?
David, when we, we started, um, the
idea was to invite children into,
um, exploring their inner worlds
through, um, creative exploration.
And we literally threw everything and
anything we could, we could at them.
You know, we were, uh, cooking,
we were singing, we were making
sculptures with found materials.
We were drawing, um, literally everything.
And what we discovered is that, um,
even with that, not every child would
connect immediately, and we kept
looking and finding new, new ways
to, um- Allow children the space to
discover the excitement of being them.
You know, one particular
boy comes to mind.
He'd been coming to our program for
three years, and he participated,
but he was never, you know,
super jazzed about anything.
He was just kind of there
and doing his thing.
And then one day we w- we had
the opportunity to go and, um, do
some gardening in a neighborhood
community garden, and as soon as
this child put his hands in the
dirt, something transformative
happened, and this new person emerged.
And, you know, that was the kind
of experience, and we kept seeing
that with different, um, activities.
You know, whether it was woodworking
and, you know, a, a girl who
suddenly discovered a passion for
hammering in nails or or- ⦠you
know, this boy with, with gardening.
So it, it, it was really that time with
children and, um, learning from them
about how they learn about themselves
and the world and, and where they
discover their narratives and their
inner compass that led us to dig deeper
into this idea of authenticity and how
do we support children in connecting
with those core selves as they develop.
Um, it's not, you know,
it's not a static thing.
It's not like there's this, you know,
core me that I suddenly discover.
It's a process of through trial and
error and lots of, uh, different
activities and opportunities, um,
connecting with parts of ourselves.
And what I'm hearing, what I'm hearing
from you right now is, I mean, I'm, I'm,
I'm hearing activities, I'm hearing some
expectations, I'm hearing relationships
and, uh, a wide range of activities.
Uh, you mentioned, um, just a lot of
ways to explore creatively, cooking,
singing, you know, gardening, woodworking.
Um, but the expectation I'm hearing
that was, that was placed on
children, or the primary one, uh,
maybe among many, was be yourself.
Show up.
Yeah, and I think that, you know,
expectations is a, is a really
important element of the relationship.
So the, the expectation was to, um,
engage in the process rather than
create something um, particular.
Um, so, you know, the idea was not draw
a tree that looks like a tree, the idea
was show us what a tree looks like to you.
The invitation was always share
yourself with us and with your
community, and that takes time.
It takes trust, it takes, um- patience
on the part of the adults because
we are so conditioned to instruct,
parent, raise, that it's hard to
step back and observe and learn.
Um, I think that that's, that was
part of the, the real challenge for
all of us is, a- and, you know, w- as
we were training, uh, facilitators,
is how do you create that space?
Um, and I think for educators
particularly, that can be very
tricky because of the expectations
that are placed on them.
Um, you know, they're accountable
for all kinds of metrics that have
nothing to do with a child's inner
story You know, and, and what made it
challenging, would you say, for those
facilitators to help them overcome that?
I, I used to be a teacher, and, and Iâ¦
There are a lot of expectations
on educators and, you know, those
translate to expectations on students.
Um, what were some of those, those
challenges that, that you would say were,
were, were sort of greater in helping
educators, helping them listen more,
be more patient, um, and search for a
deeper connection with the children?
Well, you know, in the after-school
program what would happen is we
would have a wonderful time, and
then parents would come to pick up
their children, and the children
would show them what them, they made.
And the, some parents
would say, "What is this?"
And I think sometimes the facilitators
took that as, "Oh, I haven't done my job.
You know, I didn't, I didn't
help them make, um, you know, a
clay dog that looks like a dog."
Um, and it's very hard to, in the
moment, explain that what happened is
that we had a deep conversation around
the creation of whatever this, you know,
lumpy thing that I'm showing you is.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
So it, it's, it's, it's ex- a- and that
was, you know, that was the microcosm
of, of what happens in our education
system, is that we're looking at one
data point of a result, and we'reâ¦
Something that we think we can evaluate.
And what's completely obscured in all of
that is the growth process, the learning
process, the, uh, relationship, the, um,
you know, all the, all the intangibles
that are so important in education.
Um, so that, that, that could be
really challenging for people.
Yeah.
It sounds like it was just a,
you had to really define what you
were trying to achieve, right?
Yeah.
So are we trying to achieve acceptance,
uh, recognition from, from, from
parents that may not be set perfectly?
Or, or are we also trying to achieve,
uh, that the s- the student showed up and
created something unique to themselves?
And in education, right,
we, we have grades, right?
There's accountability.
Students need to pass tests,
they need to perform, they
need to demonstrate knowledge.
But how often do we really, um, find
satisfaction or, or, or measure, did this
student show up and contribute uniquely,
you know, to the best of their ability?
So it sounds to me that- Um,
helping your facilitators.
Now I'm, I, I wasn't there, I didn't
do it, but helping those facilitators
like, "Well, wait a minute, this
is what we're trying to achieve."
You know?
Yeah.
Not necessarily this, or
we're trying to achieve both.
Well, and also redefining and being
very clear w- with the parents of what
it is that we are, um, working towards.
And it took, it took a little time,
and I must say that there, there were
lots of transformative moments in that
way also where parents would come back
and say, "Oh my goodness, you know, my
child is talking to me in a way that
hadn't happened before, um, in, with
language that I didn't know she had.
Um, and I hear it from what
she's doing in this program."
Um, it, it, thatâ¦
Again, that requires patience and the
openness on the part of parents to, um,
engage with, with, with that process.
Um, and of course, you know,
parents want their children to grow.
They want those relationships,
so, uh, on the whole we had a very
positive experience on- once people
understood what we were doing.
What I'm wondering now is if, if we
have these, these, these two things
we're trying to achieve, right?
We might have these academic standards
that we're trying to achieve, these
academic goals, these performance
goals, but we also have these, you
know, show up and be yourself and
contribute uniquely goals, you know.
How do we r- write the system for that?
How do we say, "This is how we
recognize how they've grown, how
they've contributed uniquely"?
You mentioned the child speaking
in ways they hadn't spoken before.
Um, you recognized that.
You know, that could be, you know,
a, a sort of a check mark saying,
"Hey, um, the student is, is, is
growing in their vocabulary," right?
These five ways we're helping this
student to grow, and we're kind of
watching and, and measuring against those
become your unique self standards, and
it's a really interesting, um, idea.
Now another idea that, that really stood
out to me, um, and it just, it just kinda
happened as I opened up that book, right?
So the, the, the book I mentioned at the
top, For Real: Helping Children Remain
Their Authentic Selves in a Limiting
World, the title is Helping Children
Remain Their Authentic Selves, but
chapter one actually begins with the adult
reader exploring their own authenticity.
And so what I wanted to do is
just simply ask you, why is that
the essential starting place?
You know, developmental process
for children is a partnership.
Um, they rely on adults.
We, we as children rely on adults,
um, to serve as role models and as
mirrors, and- Socialization is a
potentially powerful distorting force.
So if I'm not, um, aware of the way
that the process of, um, socialization
affected me as a child and I bring
that forward into my interactions with
children, um, chances are I'm going
to repeat some of the patterns, um,
that were just set in place, uh, and
that I'm not even conscious of, and
may not, um, r- really subscribe to.
Um, and, you know, I think the, the most
challenging one, um, that is so baked
into the way that we conceive of children
and childhood is this idea that, um,
childhood is a, um, waiting room . That,
uh, children are, um, incomplete, that
they are adults in training, and that
our job is to raise them, to educate
them, to become full human beings.
And so as a result, we see
childhood as a deficit, and
children experience it as a deficit.
Um, and they are in a hurry to grow
up . Um- Hmm ⦠and you know, a-
an eight-year-old's job is to be
the best eight-year-old she can be.
Um, we often find it easier to talk
to children about what they're going
to be when they grow up, rather than
about who they are in the moment.
Um, and- Wow ⦠in order to
re- reclaim that ability, we
have to look at ourselves.
We have to go back and think about the
experiences we had as children, the
kinds of messages we got as children.
Um, and in every environment where
we do workshops, we do activities,
when we ask people to think about,
you know, a positive interaction with
an adult, um, that helped them build
their sense of self, and a negative
interaction with an adult that hurt
their feelings and made them feel
less than, everybody remembers exactly
who those people are, what happened,
and they know the kinds of decisions
they made based on those experiences.
And that's just one example of the kind
of activity that we invite people to
do, to, um- untangle some of the, some
of the ways in which our own childhoods
l- have led to us suppressing parts
of ourselves, of obscuring parts of
who we feel ourselves to be deeply.
Uh, and that work is essential for showing
up for kids in this way, because what
they're going to look for is how we act
the way we are rather than what we say
So I'm trying to understand this a
little bit, um, a little bit in a,
in a, in a sort of fundamental way.
I'm-- I may not have this right,
but you can help me out here.
It almost sounds like part of
this is recognizing that me, as
an adult, I'm still at a deficit.
I'm still becoming.
And recognizing what I'm hearing also is
recognizing that I am a historical being.
All my thoughts may not be my own, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, some of those may
have been influenced.
I, I need to do the work of
uncovering what those are.
And as we get older, you know, uh, you,
you, you may wake up one day and say, you
know, "Why do I have this political view?
Wait a minute.
You know what?
I think I have that view be-
because my dad has that view.
Is that my view?"
You know, maybe I need to sit
down and figure out really
what my, what my view is.
If I'm uncovering these things and I'm
uncovering my authentic self first- Mm-hmm
⦠why is that so essential in, in order
to, right, connect with children, right?
To build that deep connection and lead
them to become their authentic selves.
Why does that work come first for me?
Well, I, I think you said it as
we were chatting right before we,
we began recording, is that when
I enter into a relationship with
my authentic self, I create space
for you and your authentic self.
Um, and so, you know, with children
particularly, you know, it, it's hard.
Being a parent is hard, being an educator
is hard, and very often we respond
with, um, emotions that we don't even
know where they're coming from, right?
Because we're not entirely aware of
what's happening under the surface.
And so developing that, that sense and
the space for others', um, authentic
presence changes the, the relationship.
It, it, it allows us to, um,
approach each other with curiosity.
Um, and just as you said, the
curiosity has to start with me.
I, I really need to, to be
able to say, you know, "What,
what do I actually believe?"
Mm-hmm.
Um, in order to then say,
"Well, what do you believe?
And how, how can we be in conversation,
um, between those beliefs, between our
behaviors, our cultures, and so on?"
Yeah.
Alex, I mean, if, if I don't do that
for myself, I might not even know I
should ask you the question, right?
Exactly.
I mean, I, I don't know.
If I, if I haven't gone
through it and I don't knowâ¦
I, I, I'm sure there's some listeners
that thought, that are thinking to
themselves right now, "You know what?
What are my beliefs that
may not be mine," right?
And so if, I think earlier we said,
um, right before the, uh, recording,
we s- we said, "If I can't find
myself, how can I help you find you?
How can I lead you anywhere-
Yeah ⦠if I don't know where I am?"
Um, so that, that, that does make a
lot of sense as a, as a first step.
Now, if we can begin to deal with that,
if we can begin to reflect and we can
begin to uncover our authentic selves as
adults, um, as, as educators, how do we
then help children practice authenticity?
And I'm hoping you can also
speak a little bit to why it's
important in learning environments.
What does that look like, helping
children practice their authenticity?
Well, I think that that's
the, the missing piece.
You know, we s- we, we've somehow got
to this point where we put, um, into
opposition the idea of developing as human
beings and developing as learners, and
I think that that's a false opposition.
I think that children are
learners first and foremost.
That that's what they're born
to do, and somehow, um, the way
that our systems are set up, we
slowly socialize that out of them.
Um, you know, and a really
good example is creativity.
Um, you know, there's the famous, uh,
example of the, uh, the dot on the
blackboard where, um, a, a teacher
talks about, you know, if you, if you
put a, a dot on the blackboard in a
kindergarten class and ask them what
they see, kids come up with all kinds
of fantastical stories and, and, you
know, they, they go on and on and on.
You do the same thing in a class of high
school seniors, and they'll s- look at
you like you're nuts, and they'll say,
you know, "I see a dot on the blackboard."
Um, and you know, what we see in our
workshops is w- we ask people, l- uh,
educators, we say, "You know, how many of
you consider yourself creative people?"
And almost nobody.
And to me, that's- Really?
⦠absoluteâ¦
Yeah.
It's, a- and it's absolutely stunning to
me because I, I look at these folks and
I say, "Well, how do you get through a
day in school if you're not creative?"
And of course you are.
You're doing all these fantastical
things, except that we've learned that
creativity is for the, you know, people
who purs- pursue it as a vocation, and
the rest of us are not really creative.
And you know, so that, it's that
kind of narrowing of definitions
and, and impulses that i- is, is
very damaging to us as learners.
Um, eh, you know, I just had a
conversation with somebody, um, yesterday.
You know, she was saying that when
she was in middle school, she loved,
loved physics, but she was terrified
of the physics teacher in her school.
Ah.
And because of that, she didn't
study physics, and she didn't become
a doctor like she wanted to be.
And you know, again, you hear
those stories all the time.
It's, you know, it's about relationships.
It's about children feeling, um- Agency
in their own lives, um, being willing to
take risks, um, and feeling supported in,
in taking those risks and expanding, um,
what they're pushing themselves to do.
Um, so it's, it's a, it- to me, it's an
essential, and especially the way that
the world is evolving with technology
and the pace with which, um, um, careers
are changing and how many different
careers people will have in a lifetime.
For us to have a solid foundation
of an inner compass to understand
who I am and to have a firm belief
that I can learn anything if I put
my mind to it is essential, uh,
because that's the flexibility,
that's the, um, future thinking that
allows people to really succeed in
all kinds of circumstances Yeah.
I, I mean, it sounds like where, you know,
some of the educators and adults you've
worked with have received limited or
limiting messages, whether it was, "I'm
just, you know, afraid of this person.
I'm afraid of my physics teacher,
and that somehow has taken me to a
place where I don't feel comfortable
pursuing, you know, this science
or this career that I want to."
Um, but I suspect, um, there's
other sorts of limiting messages
that we've experienced, um, that
we pass on, uh, to children,
even as parents in the classroom.
What, what are, what are some of
those, just to help us think about
that and reflect on our own behavior?
What are some of those limiting
messages that young people absorb
from school and from the adults
and the culture around them?
I think the, the, the most damaging is
the idea of what we value as a society.
You know, this notion that, um, it's
what we know and how we do on tests
rather than who we are and how we learn
and the kinds of intellectual risks
we're willing to take and how we're
willing to show up for our communities.
Uh, that's really problematic for
me, and I think it's really, um,
problematic for, for a lot of children.
Um, you know, I'm working with a
group of, um, rising seniors on,
um, a youth advisory board and, um,
they're all just entering the process
of thinking about higher education.
And to a person, they're saying
that the environment, and this
is th- their words, it's toxic.
That the idea that, you know, all
this competition, the things
you have to have, the, umâ¦
It, it's, it's turning kids off to the
whole notion of pursuing education.
And, you know, that's so removed
from this, this idea that w- we're
trying to support th- this generation
in becoming, um, the next leaders,
the next thinkers, the next artists.
Um, w- we are, we are, um, narrowing their
focus to such an extent that it, it's, um,
it's becoming, um, uh, unhealthy.
Um, and they're seeing it, you know?
And so th- I think that that's,
that's the, uh, the end result,
um- A lot of it, you know, we've
sort of touched on it, you know.
It's like what I was saying about
parents in our program saying
like, "Well, what did you make?"
You know, we, we look so much to the
external measures of what's acceptable,
uh, and what's successful rather than
cultivating our own measures of what do
I value, and how does this fit into my
life, and, and what is it that I want
to pursue, and who do I want to be?
And that takes us back to this
notion of practicing authenticity.
It's an ongoing process because
that answer will keep changing.
And, you know, one of the things that
we emphasize is that we need to equip
young people with the tools to continue
to develop as their selves develop.
Um, and that is a, a, to me, an
essential part of becoming a, a
lifelong learner, becoming, um,
a fully realized human being.
I, I 100% agree.
There's so much there that we could
unpack, and what I'm hearing from you is,
you know, s- sometimes we may be unaware
that what we're valuing is something
that is outside of the student, right?
Valuing what they can produce.
Mm-hmm.
Value what they, valuing what
they can demonstrate rather than
them, and what does that do?
It says, "This is what is valuable."
And so as a student,
I'm like, wait a minute.
This, this thing that's highly
valuable is actually outside of me.
Mm-hmm.
I should be valuing this thing
that's outside of me, right?
Um, and it, it, you know, part of that
could come from inside of me, but if I go
to do a math problem or I go to create,
you know, um, or write an essay or a, or
some type of educational project, how we
help that student develop that project,
how we react to, you know, the first
draft or the final draft, how we, how we
weight the product is a message in itself.
And so I'm thinking, um, a- as educators,
when we look at how we interact with
our students, when we, when we look
at how we interact in the moment.
They've just turned something in.
They've raised their hand.
I'm coming over.
They have an idea.
They ask a question.
Does my response foster
them f- foster them to, into
becoming a thinker, an artist?
Does it widen instead of narrow?
Mm-hmm.
Or does my response do
the opposite of that?
Mm-hmm.
And I, and I think that- I mean,
it happens every day, right?
Um, student comes and says, "Hey, I'm,
I'm trying this, this way to solve
this," or, "I went in this direction
'cause this is how I was thinking."
Howâ¦
Instead of saying, "No,
no, no, no, no, no.
Yeah, let me, let me
correct this," you know?
Can say, "Tell me more about
what you were thinking.
How can I at least, even if, even if
it was perhaps in the wrong direction,
how can I first validate instead of
immediately going to the, what we're
implying is so valuable, which is
the correct way, the correct answer?"
How can, even ju- even just in those
moments, if I can remember this, validate
first, validate first, that can be a
step in the right direction it sounds.
And the deeper thing I'm seeing here,
if, if we quiet students' interests
and ways of doing things and, you
know, i- in that way we quiet their
histories, we quiet their, their, their
cultures, their familial culture, we
quiet their, um, their unique way of
seeing the world, how can we expect
children to embrace a subject uniquely?
Innovation comes from
our differences, right?
I mean, if, if we all came from
the same place, we're going to
approach social studies and math
and science in all the same way.
But thank goodness we, we don't
all come from the same place.
We have our own experiences, and so when
I tackle, w- when I fall in love with
math or fall in love with art or fall
in love with science, I'm bringing me
there, and that's where innovation's
gonna come from that no one else saw
coming because they're not me, right?
Um- Yeah.
That's e- that's exactly right.
A- and that's the cost, you know,
that's the societal cost, um, if we
stifle authenticity, is that we, we're
stifling innovation because we, we are
turning away from, n- not just turning
away, we, we are discouraging divergent
thinking, which is where all the most
amazing ideas come from Absolutely.
Yeah.
Now, Ed, um, ju- just to kind of
wrap things up, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm
looking for just a couple takeaways
that we can kind of come up with.
You know, school, we, we mentioned it
already that there's a, there, there's
a lot of focus on production, right?
We, we, we, we tend to value
what's being produced, what's being
demonstrated, and s- schools are
under a lot of pressure though, to
produce outcomes, tons, test scores,
graduation rates, college readiness.
Alex, what would you, what would you
say that I can take away as an education
leader that I can think about to help
make sure that we're, we're continuing to
value our students as human beings and not
just future workers or future producers?
Well, you know, as I was listening
to you describing how educators value
product and, you know, a story comes
to mind from, from the book where, um,
a woman who's remembering her English
teacher from middle school, um, who, um,
gave her an A for, for a book report.
But what really mattered to, um, to
Virginia, the one who's telling the
story, was that the teacher wrote
a comment about- how sensitive a
reading, um, she had given to the book.
You know, and I think that that's, yes,
it requires a little bit more time, but
the idea of telling children that we see
them and what we see in them, whether
they're getting a high mark or a lower
mark, engaging with their narrative, with
them as human beings, is not that much
additional work, and it goes a tremendous
way towards building that relationship.
M- that's, that's key.
You know, one of, one of the things
that I've been really interested in, in
thinking about, uh, with the advent of
AI, um, uh, is, is this notion of the key
to the relationship content and learner
, um, as, as what is, is really important
in, in children learning effectively.
And the relationship is
all i- in our hands, right?
It doesn't, it doesn't take a lot to
make some slight shifts in perspective
and give our students just a little bit
more of ourselves, and give them, um,
ways to understand that we are seeing
them, that we're showing up for them.
Uh, and I think that
that would go a long way.
I, I love it.
I love it.
Work to see ourselves first, and
then think about where we can
embed these I-see-you moments.
Whether it's- Yep ⦠a, a, a
moment in the classroom, whether
it's developing a lesson, whether
it's developing a whole curriculum,
where are your I-see-you moments?
Alex, thank you for this,
this new publication.
Um, a great contribution, and
thank you so much for coming on.
Thanks for joining us on Education Talk
Radio, a part of the B Podcast Network.
If there's a topic you'd like us to
tackle or have a guest idea, send me
a message at dciceroedutalk@gmail.com.
Thanks for listening, and
we'll see you next time.