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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
My question for you today is, is it ever okay to give in to tantrums?
Because I feel like we did have that conversation a couple times recently where I felt like we were home all together and you kind of gave in to our especially our toddler or three-year-old.
Just because you're like, uh I don't really want to deal with this.
Totally.
And maybe that was my impression, but that's what it felt like you were.
That's accurate.
So, is it ever okay?
Yeah.
Okay, done.
Easy.
Wrap it up.
Conversation over.
Well
Okay, let's start with first just explaining quickly or defining quickly what a tantrum is and what giving in actually means.
Why?
I don't know.
Because I feel like it's just it is just your child being in a state of alarm to the point where they're crying.
Okay, but is that word not just kind of defining that though?
Okay.
What's what's the point of
Well, cause then people go, there's tantrum, there's meltdown, there's this, there's that.
Is it a tantrum if they're crying?
Like only if they're crying?
Basically what we're talking about is your child is just getting really upset.
Their body is not calm.
They might be crying.
They might be begging for something.
They might be whining, they might be clinging, their body is alarmed, and they're showing it in all sorts of different ways
And what we call this is a tantrum, right?
Most classic presentation is child's crying on the floor because they want something.
Or it's the lead up to, you know, if I don't do this, my child's gonna start to cry
Yeah.
So giving in to a tantrum, what we're talking about is my child's on the floor, they're crying, they want a blue cup, not a pink cup, or whatever.
Classic example.
I mean literally happened to me this week.
It's also your child wants to sit on your lap while you're eating dinner and you say no, because we need to eat and e all sit in our own spots and eat on our own plate
Especially because you have celiacs, so then you don't want to cross contaminate if there's anything else and Yeah, your child and you know if you say no to sitting on your lap, all of a sudden they're gonna be crying.
Very likely.
So then
You're in a position, this is what we're gonna talk about today, where you feel like you have to make a choice.
Either I quote unquote give in
to my child's like demand, whatever, however silly it is, right?
Like I want to sit on your lap or I want the blue cup or I want to stay up for 15 more minutes or I want whatever
There's a million things that they want.
So it's the balance.
Do you give in and hope that, okay, now I don't have to deal with all this crying?
Or do you hold the boundary?
And just know that's going to equal this big long meltdown that you're gonna have to now deal with.
And this is the struggle of I would say most taller parents.
Yeah.
Including and not limited to myself.
Yeah.
I think you give in quite a bit, and that's why you use the air quotes when you said giving in, because
I think I give in quite a bit, but I also think I hold the the boundaries quite a bit.
So I don't think that's really fair.
I'm not trying to say you'd always give in, but
You do give in a lot more than I do, I would say.
But I also feel like I'm requested a lot more things than you are.
You think that's true?
I think that's very true.
I think there's many times where we're both home, you're kinda doing your own thing, you're in the basement, you're working on your stuff
I'm the one with the kids.
So they're the ones asking me for one million things.
And you do see me hold boundaries, but you don't see all the boundaries I've held to the point where then now we're eating a meal together and I'm like, you know what?
It's fine.
Whatever.
Just sit on my lap
I've probably held so many boundaries by that point.
I just don't have the energy to hold another one.
That you think you handle the kids more than I do?
Not more.
I'm just saying I feel like Or you have more requests.
I do feel like I have more requests.
I don't think that's true.
I feel like we should talk about what just happened.
Sure.
For a minute.
I think that that's actually really honest and helpful
So Scott and I had started recording this podcast called, Is it ever okay to give in to Tantrums?
And we were getting into it a little bit and he was saying to me, I think you give in more, which is a fair, true, and honest statement
And I immediately got super defensive and kind of upset.
And then we had to pause the podcast recording and have a discussion about it off podcast.
Yeah, off air.
to be like, can we have this conversation without being super defensive and being able to be honest with each other?
And we decided we wanted to still move forward and have the conversation, even though it's kind of
Now we're a little bit not upset with each other, but we just had to have that separate conversation.
Yeah
Because if we're gonna talk about this, I just want to make sure we're having a real conversation.
We have to be honest in in our conversations.
I feel like that makes this more real.
Yeah.
And so I think I feel like we start there.
Because I feel like it is a tender
subject for me.
Now I'm sad.
It is I I I struggle with this one giving in.
I find like little tantrums over things is a little bit easier.
But for example, our daughter being like
I really don't want to go on the bus.
Like something like that.
And I feel like that's where I was getting emotional.
Cause I like struggle because then I feel guilty, right?
So she'll be like, I really don't want to go on the bus.
I or could you just please pick me up
from school, right?
And you're like, nope, you're taking the bus, Fridays, you're home with mom all day.
The rest of the week, the bus is the expectation.
And for you, you're kind of like
If this is the biggest thing that you have to struggle with as a child is taking the bus two times a day and you really don't like the bus, but you're safe on it, you're not with anyone dangerous, you know, you have a nice busmate you like to be with.
That's fine.
That's your burden that you're gonna have, but it's not the end of the world and it's okay to have some discomfort, right?
Whereas for me, it is so hard for me not to just be like, okay, fine, I'll just drive you to school
Even though it disrupts my day, even though that means I'm not getting as much done, even though that means I'm more stressed out, because I don't want you to have to do this thing you don't want to do.
So that is really, I think, where the giving in is harder for me.
And I think it's because of I feel their emotions and sometimes I struggle to not take it on.
And I don't want them to be sad or have a hard time.
And I feel guilty.
You feel guilty about those things a lot quicker than I would.
Like I also
don't necessarily love that they're on the bus for so long.
They have a long bus ride just But again, we've had this conversation before too where I personally feel like if that's the worst thing that they're experiencing right now and
Like we had a few issues with the bus end of last school year.
And then we for a month about a month, we we drove them in because hey, there was a legitimate reason for not having them on the bus.
Mm-hmm.
But I feel like otherwise if everything's going well on the bus and like they're sitting with their friends, they're enjoying it, no one's being mean to them unnecessarily, or it's not unsafe, then that's
Then yeah, and I think that's a good mindset to have.
And theoretically and the way I would teach, I totally agree with you.
That's my problem sometimes, I think, is like I actually get it and that's what I teach.
It's okay for them to have discomfort.
It's okay for them to like not love the bus ride home and have to be bored for a little bit on it and maybe have to doodle in their journal.
'Cause they we don't give them a tablet on the bus, you know, that kind of thing.
I think though why it was getting defensive, why
this is kind of the an emotional topic for me is that I struggle with the guilt.
And I was even thinking that the other day and you weren't doing anything wrong.
Like
You were just sitting working on a little reno project that you want to work on in the kitchen, which is totally fine.
I want it's both of we both want.
Yeah, yeah.
Let's be able to do that.
Right.
I wanted to work on my book.
But because I felt the kids were there and they wanted, Mummy, play with me.
Because I felt so much guilt over
Well, I don't want to say no to playing with them.
We're only home together so much.
They go to school, whatever.
That I was like, okay, fine, I'll play with you.
I play with them, I enjoy it, but
I will so much quicker just like forgo whatever it is I was planning on doing or whatever it is I wanted to work on to keep the kids
happy and like do the things that they want.
That sometimes it comes at the expense of me feeling burnt out and tired and exhausted because I'm just trying to keep the kids happy.
Yeah, and I guess like the work that you are doing, let's say when we're at home, you're writing.
Mm-hmm.
So then they can't participate in that.
But if I'm doing this little project at home.
Yeah, they'll come and like look and see what I'm doing.
I can give them like the tape measure, the one end of the tape measure and they can help me, or give them the the laser measure and
let them measure things for me so that I can it's just kind of like a fun thing that we do together and they'll often participate in that.
But yeah, a lot of the stuff that you would do is not
Something they can participate in.
The problem too, like all my interests and hobbies are really things I have to do by myself.
Yeah.
So then I feel like it's always like either choose, okay, do this thing, like read a book by myself
or play with them.
Like I don't really have an in-between where I'm like, let's do it together.
Yeah.
Besides maybe exercise, I have tried to include them in that a little bit more, which has been good.
Yeah, that's been fun.
That's been pretty fun.
I've been really enjoying that.
But I think
That's where giving in to your children, I think that's the biggest difference between the two of us, is you're able to kind of be like, This is the boundary, this is the rule and
in a way like contextualize it in your mind like and it's okay.
If they're a little disappointed by it, if it's not great, that's fine.
I can handle it.
Like and you do, you handle it really well.
Whereas even this morning our the youngest was like, I don't want to go to daycare today And my first instinct is being like
Oh, is there a way that, you know, I could stay home with her or I could take her to work?
Like my first instinct is Meanwhile we have to record all this.
We literally can't
So I think that is the challenge, and I think my challenge is a challenge that a lot of parents have and I'm very aware of it
Yeah, this almost has turned into a therapy session a little bit.
But you know what?
This I think brings up an interesting point.
Because I feel like at times we've had discussions where
I've said to you, I don't want to be the bad guy.
I don't want to be the only one to hold boundaries and make the kids upset on my own.
So sometimes I've asked you
Like we talk about something.
I think we kind of default to me being the one to say, hey, no, this is not what's gonna happen.
We have to do that.
Yeah, because they listen right away when we say it.
Because they know you're gonna be serious about it.
Right.
And then it never gives you a chance to actually be that serious person.
And I think that's actually led to probably the most disagreements in parenting with us is
I've said to you, I feel like I want you to be the one to set this boundary with them.
I don't want to have to set all of them and be the bad guy constantly.
And not even that they see you as the bad guy.
Yeah, sometimes.
I mean they're gonna
Especially the youngest.
Th not the youngest.
The older two.
But when they were younger, it would have been the same thing.
Like it would have been no different at that age, or it was no different.
And we've had that conversation.
So I think even partners will often have that where they one is kind of the one that gives in to everything and then the other one is the one that
has to set the rules.
Yeah.
You know?
This is what we do in our household.
And I feel like that can lead to some disagreements.
I agree.
And I don't even think like you don't do it in like your traditional like you're never harsh
No.
I feel like you're very good.
You set the expectation like, hey, you're going on the bus four days.
On the fifth day, mom will drive.
I drive the oldest to school, pick her up from school.
and then I spend the day with the two youngest kids, right?
And you're just like, just is what it is, right?
Whereas for me, I think I'm a little easier swayed where I'll be like, yep, that's the expectation.
But then
And maybe it's like just being so empathetic or being like, oh, I can really get into your mind.
Because they will be sad obviously about it.
I feel like guilt works on you.
It works too well on me.
Yeah
'Cause then yeah, then for my middle will be like, oh mommy though, like it's just such a long bus ride and my favorite part of the day is when I sit on the bus on the way home and I think about
seeing you and whatever and That's probably true too.
And it's true, but then it just it gets my heart and then I'm like, okay, okay fine.
Like it's not even that I don't want you to feel that way.
It's just like I feel bad that you feel that way.
So now I'm gonna go pick you up.
But what I know about myself is
When I get in that way and then I start feeling so much guilt over it, I burn myself out so hard.
Yeah.
And it's not healthy for the whole
family as a whole.
So even this morning, like the one was like saying, oh please, please, please drive me in.
And sure I probably could have made it work, but I was like, you know what?
No.
Like you've got to go on the bus today.
And that was like hard for me to hold that boundary.
But I'm like, I know I have to because as soon as one day I'm like, no, that's fine, I'll drive you in.
Then I just know that usually escalates to like every single day
And then now I'm late to work and I'm late to other drop-off.
And it's just a whole thing.
Well it's not even that.
It's more they know it's more of a possibility.
Like, to be honest, I was actually thinking of
bringing them in tomorrow, driving them to school tomorrow, because my schedule kind of allows for it.
So it's more of hey, it actually doesn't put my day out at all to bring them to school.
Right, so I can do that.
If anything, I might actually get to work earlier by doing it.
So I was
kind of thinking of hey you're going to record a podcast in Toronto, I might just bring them to school and then they can come back home on the bus and then the next day you'll
drop the oldest off and pick her up and Yeah.
But kind of like without them being the ones to lead us to that decision.
Right.
You're anticipating that they already want that, so you're just gonna let them know before it's like they're crying and asking for it.
Yeah.
And so I guess like to go back to the original question of the podcast, like is it ever okay to give into tantrums?
Like I think we're talking about more than just tantrums here, like we're just talking about boundaries
I feel like more so.
Like is it okay to change your boundary?
I feel like that's more what we're asking.
But I guess have we had an episode on that?
Not specifically that topic.
But I actually feel like that's more of the question, is it okay to change your boundary part way through
And I do think that sometimes the answer is yes.
And I will say the times when I've done this effectively for myself is I've realized my boundary is just kind of ridiculous.
Yeah.
And I think all parents have done that where you're like like even just small little things, right?
Where you're like, okay, this is actually not really a necessary way.
Yeah, you say an arbitrary no to something that really why why would you have said that?
And I noticed out, especially if they're older kids, they'll be like, well, and then like list 10 reasons why my boundary doesn't actually make any sense.
And I'm like
Yeah, you're kinda right.
That was just me trying to exert some power and control here.
And then you have to check your ego and be like Honestly, I kinda love it that they push back on a lot of those things.
And honestly, if they push back and it's valid, that I'm like
Okay, sure.
That makes sense.
Okay, at what point is it manipulation on their end?
Is it ever or not ever manipulation?
Using tantrums to get what they want?
I know you're probably gonna say you don't like that word.
Well don't, but
I don't think it's manipulation is it's just the best way that they know to get what they want, right?
Okay, so then is it's not like an adult who's like
I know that if I play the victim in this situation and cry, everyone will feel bad for me and I won't be held responsible for my behavior.
Right.
You know what I mean?
That's manipulation.
Talders not doesn't have complex thinking.
They're just like, this is the only way I know.
Reinforcement concern?
Is that a real concern?
Yes.
So let me take off my guilt-sridden mother hat for a minute and talk about what I know to be true as a therapist
is that we do want to be mindful of the boundaries that we set and ask ourselves, this is the ideal, am I willing to hold this?
Does this boundary make sense
And is this boundary something that eventually I hope my child will be able to kind of set for themselves?
Because if we're constantly setting boundaries.
And then giving into them or changing them.
Or, you know, your child pushes back just enough and then you're like, okay, fine, never mind
Whatever you want, you are reinforcing in a way that, hey, if I cry for this long, then she'll change her mind
or if I use the guilt trip, then that'll definitely work and she'll give in.
Right?
So you are and I am in a way teaching our kids that hey if you guilt me, I'll probably change my mind
Now, are they intentionally noticing that pattern?
Probably not.
Maybe the oldest is.
She definitely is.
But she'll joke about it.
She does she actually is very good.
She doesn't really do that.
Well, she does with me, so I would say I give in to her the most
When she's like, Dad, can we just please can I stay up a little bit later and we play a little bit of switch together?
That's actually true.
I have hold firmer boundaries with our oldest than you do.
Yeah.
So you have it easier with the younger two and I Well and our oldest too, but I feel like specifically that scenario where you're probably writing or something like that.
You're off I'm off doing my own thing.
Kids are we've put the younger two to bed.
You're doing your own thing.
And then she asked me, Dad, can you plea can we can I please stay up a little bit longer and we play like one or two rounds of Mario Kart.
And forty minutes later you guys are still playing.
Yeah, exactly.
Anyway, I do think
that is an important thing for parents.
And I think that's where you're you are effective is for the most part, if you say something to the kids, you're sticking to it.
Right.
And if you want to change direction, then you leave that.
Yeah.
You don't wait until they are like crying
I try to have a good reason for the boundary to begin with.
Right.
So I feel like that's where you are quite effective and then actually what I do notice is they really respect your boundaries.
Like when you say, This is the rule, this is what's gonna happen, hey, we're all going to bed early tonight or whatever it is.
They're like, okay.
And it's not out of fear.
They just they know that if you say it, then you're gonna stick to it.
And I will say for the most part, I think I do a decent job of that.
But I think I am a lot more willing to kind of change my boundary based on I feel bad.
Yeah
So that is something that I actively have to try to work with.
The biggest thing is you are the most tenderhearted person.
So then yeah, you also don't want anyone to be upset if they don't have to be
Yeah, exactly.
And sometimes it's just the reality and you know you understand that.
So I I mean originally I was kind of joking about it at the beginning of the episode, but then that spurred a whole additional conversation.
off air about this, but I think in general you're quite good at it.
It's just because you're so tender hearted.
It's a little bit easier for you to
give in to a tantrum because you just obviously don't want to see your child sad.
Yeah, exactly.
I think that's really the deeper reason why I probably give in more.
And I think I can very easily take on their emotions and be like, oh, that would really be hard to feel that way.
I wouldn't want to feel that way.
Okay.
You know what?
Let's make a new plan.
And I don't think all of that is bad.
Like I think sometimes
It's good, like I don't necessarily need to do this, but it's good for some parents to be able to take a step back and try and picture their child's emotions and ask themselves if their boundaries are actually realistic and necessary, but I just do it too much
But I I do see, let's say, in my my work with clients, sometimes people are like, yep, I'm setting boundaries, but then they'll tell me what the boundary is, and it's just really not realistic.
Yeah, right.
And then eventually they give in.
But it's like you probably shouldn't have set that boundary to begin with, because you are actually kind of setting your child up to not be successful because that boundary is just not realistic for a two-year-old, let's say
Like I'm kind of picturing like, yep, I set the boundary that my two-year-old has to sit the dinner the whole time.
And I buckled him into his seat, but then halfway through he started crying and then I was like, oh fine
Go, right?
But realistically, your child sitting at the dinner table the entire time is just actually not a realistic goal.
So you never actually set yourself up for success with that goal.
Maybe your boundary was
We all start dinner together and we have to start at the table eating our meal together and when you're done then you may go
Yeah, we have a certain routine too, or like for us, we talk about our days and all that.
We all go we go around the table and discuss everything that's been going on or the main points of the day.
Mm-hmm.
And then we finish our meal and then at least the youngest one usually leaves before we finish.
Yeah.
Like before you and I finish.
Well the older two are pretty good.
They're pretty good, but that was their same rule.
And now they're older and now they can stay longer, right?
Yep.
So I think
For many parents, evaluating their boundaries is actually a really good idea.
For me specifically, I think I do set pretty realistic boundaries, but then I just end up feeling guilty and then I'm like, oh
Okay, fine.
Fine, you can sit on my lap during dinner, or fine.
I'll sleep in your bed with you tonight or whatever, right?
And so for the parents who do
lean towards that more passive side like myself, it is helpful to understand that about yourself and then see, is that impacting my kids
Is that impacting the amount of tantrums that they're having?
Is it impacting the level of authority or power that I have in the home?
I'd say for the most part it's not for us.
Like I don't think I do it so much that it's like
The kids don't respect me anymore.
No, definitely not.
I just think they know I'm softer and they go to me.
And then that is also not a great thing, right?
So I have been actively trying to work on this for my whole parenting journey.
And it is an active trying to work on it type of thing that I'm going to have to continuously work on just based on similar things at work.
Again
I feel like we're saying it as though that's all you do, but the reality is that it's such a small portion of the yeah.
I don't want people to think, oh Jess is a passive parent.
Yeah, no.
I'm not.
I hold many, many, many boundaries in a day.
Let's
Be real.
You have three kids.
Yeah, I think the other thing is we have three kids now.
So it's three times the amount of boundaries that you had to hold when you just had one kid.
Sort of, yeah.
I feel like we don't have to as much with our oldest
I mean maybe they're different things that we're holding boundaries with.
Yeah, that's possible.
Like she wants to do an extracurricular every night.
She wants to have a play date here, there, and everywhere.
She wants to
stay up till ten o'clock every night.
Like it's just that.
She's way more outgoing than either of us.
It's just different boundaries.
But it's still boundaries that you have to hold with her.
Yep.
Right?
It's just different, so it's always gonna be a thing.
But I would say yes, it's not that I would not consider myself a passive parent.
I do think I hold a lot of boundaries and deal with a lot of tantrums
It's just that I also do give in much more easily.
And I think the problem for me and for many moms, many people out there, is it turns into kind of, I don't know if the martyr mother is like the right word, but like it's the same at work, it's the same
with friends is the same across so many things where you just end up, okay, that's like I'll do this for someone else so that they're not sad and you just give, give, give, give, give, give, give until you're burnt out to the crisp.
And that is a pattern that has happened in my life many times
Yes.
Where I feel like you have that, I don't feel the same.
I don't feel like I have that outside of whatever family life either.
No, you're pretty good.
I wonder how much of that is like the difference between growing up like as a girl versus a boy and are girls just conditioned more to give, give, give, give, give.
Probably.
I think they are.
Whereas for you, you might not have had that same like messaging.
Right?
Why is it very different upbringing, right?
So then it's hard to compare the upbringing I had to the normal
Upbringing.
You never go, okay, my child has to take the bus for this long amount of time, two times a day, and I know that they don't really like, especially the bus ride home, and they're sad.
I'm a bad father
I feel like your mind never goes there.
Whereas like that's immediately where I would go.
Yeah, no, that's not at all what I and like when they're having tantrums or yeah, when they've had tantrums about whatever different things.
I don't feel like I've ever felt
That way.
Yeah, even even in the middle of the night, like if the kids need me or us, I'm always like, I'll just go snuggle up in their bed.
I do like it, so there's that.
But also the feeling of guilt I would have for not doing that versus for you, you would just be like, Okay, let's go pee, do whatever you need.
I'll rub your back till you're back asleep, but I'm going back to my own bed.
I'm not sleeping in your bed.
And you would never think to yourself, Oh
You know, did I do enough?
But I I do feel like maybe there's this different conditioning, a different messaging.
Yeah, it's quite possible.
I'm sure that plays uh has a part to play.
I think so.
Because I feel like a lot of moms I talked to would relate a lot to the way I feel.
Yep.
Versus the way that you feel.
I'd be curious.
I would love for people to write in and let us know.
Yeah, because I mean we also have different experiences as parents too, right?
Like
You were the one who actually had the child and then you stayed home with them and all that, right?
Versus it's much less likely to happen that I would stay home with
the baby and take care of them and all that kind of stuff.
So then yeah, we just have different experiences as parents right from the beginning.
It's not even necessarily from
the messaging we received as kids until now.
It's like we literally just have different experiences because that's the reality of the situation.
But I I don't even mean it from kids to like just like societal like pressure for moms to like be everything for the children.
Whereas like the expectation on dads is like dads do like one thing with the kids and people are like, Yay, good for you.
Right.
Like
I even remember like you being in the bookstore with our daughter, right?
Our oldest when she was a baby and how many people came up to you like, oh wow, like
So nice that you're out with your daughter and you know things like that.
And it's like almost like surprising that a dad's out with a baby versus like me being out with a baby.
It's just like
Well of course she is.
So I just feel like there's just maybe different expectations, so you don't have the same like heavy weight of an expectation on yourself
as a dad as versus mom.
I don't know.
Something that I've wondered.
So I feel like dads are celebrated for like I feel like in general I don't really feel societal expectations of the case.
Yeah, maybe that's just you.
You just never
You don't really ever worry about that, which is one of the things that I do love about you and try and learn from you.
Hey friends, so at pickup last week, our daughter asked Scott a truly
kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
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Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
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So
Can we answer the question again from your perspective?
I feel like I've answered it from mine.
Is that the other one?
Is it ever okay to give into Tanger well I mean, yeah, obviously I think it is because I think
Especially when we are tired as parents.
Or let's be real.
Most of most parents are tired.
Yeah, it's like a perpetual tiredness.
We're tired for maybe multiple decades until we're not.
Maybe we can get rest again.
Yeah, yeah, maybe and you're an empty nester.
But I think you don't necessarily make the most clear or logical decisions, so then
It's very likely that you're going to set a boundary and your child's gonna have a tantrum over something that you're like, mm, this actually doesn't really make that much sense.
And you can backpedal on that and repair with them and say, Hey, yeah, sorry.
That wasn't realistic.
I shouldn't expect that from you.
And even if it's after the fact too, like you've you've held it and then you just repair afterwards and say, you know what, that actually wasn't a realistic fair for you.
I feel like I've done that.
Many times you've done that.
Yeah.
There's just moments where you're like you're in the heat of the moment and you just think this is the boundary I'm gonna set and whether that's like
a boundary that you had as a kid and you're like, you need to now do this.
And then later you reflect and you're like, well that wasn't really fair.
I don't know why I expected that of them.
You know, or in the moment where I've said, I've had a post before say
It's okay to change your mind mid-discipline if you realize you're in the wrong.
And sometimes you do realize you're in the wrong.
So yeah, then it's okay.
It's not fair to keep holding something if it actually isn't a fair boundary for your children.
Yeah
Yeah, and that I mean there's a whole subset of the population that thinks that it's my way or the highway.
Mm-hmm.
And they have that
sort of method of raising their kids, but I just think that's completely stupid because the reality is no person is infallible.
We all make mistakes.
It's very likely that we have not made a logical decision here.
So we should be constantly reflecting on the decisions we're making and change course if it doesn't make sense.
And that might mean we have to give in to a tantrum because hey, it actually doesn't make sense.
I think if it's chronic and we're always giving in, that's when it's the problem.
That's what I was gonna say.
If it's every time, if you're walking on eggshells.
So I recently had to catch myself because I was like, I feel like I'm kind of walking on eggshells around our three-year-old and like trying to not set off the tantrum.
I mean is that not okay though too?
Maybe a little bit?
Again, if it's all the time.
Yeah, exactly.
Again, she was sick and tired and we were out of routine.
So then she was very temperamental.
She was a little testy.
So we were all like even her sisters were kind of like
Just give her her space.
Let her do her thing.
If she wanted their toy, they were just kind of giving it to her.
Where normally they would fight back a little bit and not give it to her.
But they just I feel like we all kind of gave in a little bit more because she was
Quite grouchy.
But then when she started feeling better, I think for myself I had to be like, okay, now we're back on track here.
We're not gonna keep walking on eggshells because we don't let
three and a half year old run the home.
Right.
Right.
And so I think it's those things.
It's like, is this situational?
Is this my unrealistic boundary that I have to change?
Or
Am I kind of becoming a passive parent where I'm giving in to every tantrum?
I'm walking on eggshells around my child, I'm afraid to set them off.
then it is important to really question yourself because you don't want to become a permissive parent.
And kids do actually need to know what the expectations are and what the boundaries are.
They just have to be realistic.
Because if they don't know, you're going to get way more pushback.
even like the bus thing or the expectation is like you're going to daycare four days a week.
That is what it is.
We were working during that time.
If every time
she wanted to stay home or like I actually gave in to my desire to be like, oh fine, you can stay home.
You can come to the office with me.
Well now she's learning that I don't trust my own boundary and she's gonna push it every single day
So there is a a place and time where you do have to have your realistic boundaries and be able to hold them, especially the big ones.
Yeah.
Otherwise you will get constant pushback and that's gonna be hard.
Okay, two last things.
One, I feel like we should mention that some children are more sensitive as well.
So I think that can lead to just more persistent tantrums and meltdowns just because of that.
fact because we I think we saw that with our middle.
She was a little bit more sensitive to just everything in general.
Yep.
Like even this morning.
You can't see it on the camera, but
Just put some cover up on her nose because there's something going on there.
My middle daughter was quite disgusted by it, even though it's the time like you barely
I could barely see it to begin with.
That's so funny.
But I feel like we had more tantrums with her and we figured that out because we realized hey this
girls actually maybe a little bit more sensitive to just everything in general.
And then you realize that your boundaries aren't actually fair.
Yeah, right.
Like for example, like I would set out her clothes and be like, this is what you have to wear today.
And she'd have a huge tantrum about it.
And I'd be like, I have to hold my boundary.
So no, you have to wear this.
Well later you realize when she has words to describe it, the clothes feel terrible, they're scratchy.
There's really only like one kind of pants that work for her, one kind of socks that work, one kind of underwear that works.
And so you realize, oh shoot, I was trying to hold a boundary that's actually not fair to hold for a sensitive child who's very particular about what kind of clothes she wears.
Meanwhile, I'm pretty much the exact same way.
I have one
type of underwear that I like.
I've tried a bunch of other ones.
I know, eh?
I wear one type of pants, again in multiple colors, so it doesn't look like I'm wearing the same thing always, but I have certain preferences because of the way it feels and I
Don't like the feeling of other people.
Right, so you actually understood that.
Yeah.
Actually that was a time when you were like, Jess, you need to lighten up.
Yeah.
So there has been times where you've
been like mm I think your boundary is unrealistic here.
You need to lighten up a little bit because this actually is real to her.
It's not just like this power struggle that you're getting into.
So I I think that's a really important and good point and the curiosity needs to be there.
Yeah, it's again hard in the moment, especially when you're exhausted.
It's just not necessarily realistic to always be contemplating every single thing that you've decided and what you're doing.
But I think it it is important to try and do it regularly, to understand, hey, did when I reacted this way to my children, was that the right way?
Could I have done it differently?
I love how Ross Green says, Dr.
Ross Green, which is instead of why won't my child meet my expectation, it's why can't my child meet my expectation?
What skills, what do they need to learn, how can I help them
I feel like that reframe is so huge for parents, especially when they're working on boundaries, because sometimes you do have to be curious, especially if you're setting the same boundary over and over.
It's just like never quote unquote working.
Yeah
It's like, why can't why can't they meet this expectation?
Why do I feel like I always have to shift my boundary?
And that can help you understand if it's realistic or not.
Yeah, I think that's a good quote.
Okay, my last thing.
It's kind of related but sort of all right, I'll just ask.
Just say it.
So I was thinking because the girls are all going back to school again and everything and two of them stay home on Fridays with you
I know you don't love sticker charts or anything like that, but I was wondering if it would actually make sense for them to have like a little sticker chart or something.
where they can like X out the days that they're actually going to school and then see like, hey, this is the day you're staying home.
Because I feel like as a kid, weeks would
feel like they took forever.
Yeah.
So then you don't actually feel like that's not a sticker a sticker chart when that I don't like it's like for reward?
For a behavior.
Yeah.
Okay.
For saying, yay, you said good
Whatever.
It's more of a calendar, I guess, than it's a visual aid.
I think I love a visual.
I actually think that's a fantastic idea.
But I was thinking you just put a c calendar up.
We have a calendar at home
No, I know, but I felt like it needed to be simpler.
Like we have the five, let's say five work days or five school days, and for us we have that last day is when two of them are home with you.
And they can every day put something on there to say, like, hey, I'm actually accomplishing this and I'm getting closer to that day where I get to be home and then I'm home for the weekend.
I love that idea.
Because I feel like otherwise it must feel like it takes forever
Yeah, there's no concept of time.
This kind of a tangent though.
It's not really about giving into tantrums.
But I guess it is about proactive support.
Yeah, it's proactive because
I will bet you anything tonight we will have something from our middle and or tomorrow from our middle and youngest about taking the bus and going to preschool.
Versus if we can show like, hey, this is the last day
And then you get to be home for a long weekend.
Love it.
And you do that ever I feel like then you don't even have to get to that tantrum part as often because you've set a system up in place to like show and it's very simple
And you just take it all off and then the next week you put them up again and they know.
Okay, two things to that.
One, I just suggested that to a client a few days ago, which obviously I never told you about.
Oh yeah.
So it's just funny.
Sweet.
Because I'm like
Students become the master once again.
It's so funny because like I know all these things and I do it with my clients, but then like we were saying, sometimes in your own house, do just a mom.
Right?
Yeah.
You're not therapist Jess, you're a mom who has her own stuff that she has to work through.
So then you forget to use your own tools sometimes.
Although I do use them all the time, like a lot of the time, but there's just things I forget
That I'm like, oh yeah, that would actually be really helpful for our kids too.
So that's the first thing.
And I love that.
Let's definitely do that.
The second thing is I'm glad we restarted this conversation and had it again
Mm-hmm.
Because I think and I just want people to know that like it started off the first time we started recording this.
I was very defensive.
But I think
Like now then we paused and restarted it and kind of came from a place of vulnerability instead.
And that's what you said on the pause.
You're like, I don't want to have a conversation if you're going to be defensive.
I want to have a conversation where we can actually like be honest and share vulnerability.
share vulnerably, right?
And I'm glad we did that because now I think you have a better understanding of me when I give in, which I just don't like love that language, or like when I change my boundary halfway through, let's say
Or when I just am like doing the martyr thing where it's like, Oh, let me just do everything for you.
Yeah.
And to the point where I'm exhausted.
I think
you'll have a better understanding of that and be like, Jesse, you don't have to feel guilty.
It's okay.
Right?
Just like that reminder, which you already say, but just knowing that.
And then I do want to say for them parents who feel
the way I feel and struggle with it, something that has really helped me not to people please with my kids or to like let guilt and shame run my parenting is like
Would I want my children when they become mothers if they do to do all those things for their children and burn themselves out
Because I'm really setting the model, right?
And I don't want them to become moms and be like, wow, my mom worked a full-time job and she did this and she did this and she never did anything for herself when she was home.
All she ever did was play with us all day long
Holy, I can't meet that.
I I can't do that.
Right.
And then they feel bad as moms because I've never showed them that that actually burns you out and makes you exhausted and is really difficult.
Do you feel like you feel the same pressure, like based on how your mom raised you, to be similar to how your mom is though?
My mom was fantastic.
And I think part of it is I was raised as the stay-at-home mom, who was always there.
Yeah
And I do feel that pressure to do all the things that a stay-at-home mom does while working two full-time jobs basically.
So
Yeah, I would say and it's not that she ever put that pressure on me, but I loved having a childhood with a mom who was at home.
And so I try to give the girls as much as I can the feeling of having a mom who's always around and always there, while at the same time trying to
work full time.
Yeah.
And so yes, I would say that that is just a self-inflicted pressure.
Even my own mother is like, Jess, you do too much.
Like simmer down.
So it actually doesn't come from her, but it is more like
my own thing I am actively working through.
But hopefully sharing that honestly will help someone who's listening to this as well.
Yeah.
Well I think it was ended up being a good conversation.
Mm-hmm.
Degreed.
I'm glad we can uh sit in the discomfort.
Great.
Well, thank you all for listening and let us know if you can uh resonate with anything that was in this episode.
Hopefully there was something useful in there.
I feel like we uh we covered a lot and not even necessarily all we wanted to cover, but classic.
Classic
All right, we'll talk to you guys soon.
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