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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
Subscribe now for weekly episodes that celebrate the unpredictable, the playful, and the deeply human side of making things. Join the mailing list at mischiefpod.com
Email anytime at podcast@ohhmaybe.com and follow us @mischiefpod
Mishu Hilmy (00:03.244)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery, where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life, and that steady, and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold, risky mo-
So, if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com.
theater, film and comedy. In 2023, she wrote and produced The Knockout, a darkly funny one-woman play that premiered at Chicago's Steppenwolf Theater. And her debut screenplay, La Chupacabra, became a Sundance Institute finalist and recipient of Jason Reitman's Seed and Spark grant. Ilse is a Chicago-based actor, writer, producer.
with roots in Brownsville, Texas. She also performs standup at venues such as The Laugh Factory, the Chicago Latina Comedy Festival, and hosts the witty culture savvy podcast, Il Se, Will Se. So in the episode we chat about finding creative freedom through humor, building genuine connections in this competitive industry, as well as how hosting our own podcast helped her drop the pressure to be perfect and just be authentic. We also get into the importance of showing up as yourself and doing that consistently as well as
how self-assurance grows out of repetition, not magic or rumination. You can learn more about Ilse at ilsesacarriessrevera.com as well as on Instagram at Ilse Sacarias and her podcast Ilse Will Say. You can follow that on Instagram at Ilse Will Say. We'll have all that in the show notes. So without any further interruption, here it is, me and Ilse. Hope you enjoy.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (02:10.222)
I feel like having a podcast doesn't allow you to think very much. So I feel like the creativity, like I'm just riding the momentum of the show I'm producing or the short or the next pre-production project and it just kind of snowballs. And so I don't really have much time to think and I think it's a
Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious because I sort of relate to that. Like have you found that the consistency of something like a podcast, especially longer form, like an hour long, like has changed your relationship with preciousness of like putting things out there? Cause like, well, I have 20 plus hours of me gabbing and it's, it's every week I got to do that. I'm doing this thing.
100%. Have you felt the same way?
Similarly, yeah, yeah, I think it's like a sort of a burden off my shoulders of like, yeah, all this stuff exists. Granted, like when I interview folks, I generally don't talk too much. mostly like ask a lot. It's good. No, it's totally fine. But yeah, I think it's been a nice blessing. It's been a nice gift to like let go of that degree of perfectionism and at the same time.
I'm sorry, I'll... Shit.
Mishu Hilmy (03:17.866)
There is a certain, I don't know if we've talked about in past, but it's a different type of creativity. It's, know, I love talking to people, but for me, publishing and editing a podcast doesn't satisfy the creative depths of say like brainstorming or writing or producing something that isn't like a conversation piece.
Yeah, I feel that. I also talk briefly on my podcast about, know, just especially at networking events, you know, they're really, they're really tough thing in the industry. I feel like it's really tough. was really tough for me to be myself and be genuine. But with the podcast, like you said, it's just, it's just you.
and one other person for a whole hour. So I hope you, like I hope on myself and I think it's like a muscle, know, being myself is a muscle. And the more I myself, the, I think the more I attract when it comes to people and projects, because I think people can sense that authenticity and I'm no longer needing, I don't know about you. But like now that I have a platform, like a podcast to offer, I feel like I can.
offer people something as opposed to take something from them. So I don't take their time. I offer them a platform to express themselves or promote their project or something like that. And that makes me feel so much better about life.
you you also produce, so it's sort of that the spirit of most people end up in producing because they're like, I'm tired of asking for gatekeepers permissions or auditioning for gigs that I don't really care about. And similar to like having this type of platform, you're like, instead of waiting for someone to ask me or sending a bunch of cold emails to random podcasts I barely listened to or whatever opportunities, why don't I just create an environment, an area of gathering to just like talk to people I'm curious about.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (05:02.242)
Yeah, that's exactly right. And I also, I've always enjoyed the one-on-one conversation. So I feel like you can get deep in it you can let the pleasantries kind of go to the side and just really get to know somebody. Cause I think networking gets a really bad rep, but it's just about building friendships and relationships. And I feel like I don't think that there's anybody that's ever sat with me or just in general.
I don't know that there's anybody who I could sit with for a whole hour and not find something wonderful about them, about their story, feel more empathy about whatever is happening with their lives or has happened. So I think that that's just wonderful. I really, really like it. And again, it gets me out of the competitive mindset and more into the creative flow.
It's nice to have a space and create that space. And I think it's like an intentional space, especially when you're producing a podcast and you can create your own intentionality around it. What kind of experience you want to have and what kind of experience you want the guests to have versus networking events. They're run by a variety of different sources, some better, some worse. And even then they usually don't have certain constraints or context of the goal of the networking event. So then you end up in the usual.
conversations of like, are you working on? And I'll sit there for 10 minutes while you yap. And then you'll maybe ask me the same question.
I hate that question.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (06:27.406)
or you'll get an actor be like, would you like to see my monologue? I'm like, oh honey, no. And it's like something that I had to learn the hard way.
Well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do think it's interesting because maybe in the creative industry or maybe other industries as well, like, I don't necessarily want to call it a certain ambition, a productivity mindedness, we're having a platform or a podcast is easier, an easier sell to be like, look, you want to talk for an hour. It'll be recorded versus, Hey, we admire each other's works. Let's grab a coffee. I think some people are more inclined to like beyond the record then.
you know, just meet socially. Cause I think socialization is maybe seen as like not productive.
I know, isn't that crazy? And every time I listen to like Mike Schur, like a show runner, thinks about relationships and thinks about people and cohesiveness. I just don't see a lot of folks thinking about that prior to starting a project. Like sometimes it is worth sitting down with somebody for an hour and just picking their brain and just having fun and shooting the shit.
Mmm, yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (07:32.302)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I also wonder like, you know, how much of it's just a courage of like, it's, it's awkward. It's awkward to like make connection. It can be awkward to make connections as an adult and a self-consciousness of like, we're, trying to become a friendship or not even a friendship, like a foster or nurture or relationship. And especially within the industry, it's like, is this a social, is this a social, is this coffee or are they trying to like,
you know, slowly, you know, bring me into their orbit so they can make an ask. I do think there's the risk of just like a distrust as well.
Probably both. Yeah, it's probably both. But the most efficient ones are when it's an actual connection and a genuine interest in something. Yeah, that's when it's the most fruitful, I think. But it's really just about finding your people, in my opinion. And I think I've found, I've definitely found some collaborators that I enjoy. And it was from really large events. And then I just tend to gravitate.
I just tend to gravitate towards certain people at events though. Like I'll hear somebody, this happened recently at a film festival where a woman, we were watching a film and then it was the talk back and the mingling after. And this woman goes, as she sits down and she starts just like talking, she's like, of course I did that. And I was like, I want to talk to that person. And I ended up being a really wonderful person and she was a sound designer and you have just like the most genuine connection there, but that's.
Yeah, yeah.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (08:58.616)
but that's also who I am. Like I would make that sound.
I think it's like also a mix of like intention and curiosity, right? Cause I think in those environments, film festivals or talk backs or network environments, there's the risk of like hierarchy mindedness. You know, where are you and how can you help me versus like, this person seems like they got a vibe. I won't talk to them cause they just made a funny noise and I make funny noise.
What is it called? The shoulder shuffle? think it's... No, you haven't heard that? Where you kind of like... Well, this is an audio thing. So if you're looking at somebody in the face and then you just kind of shuffle over to their left or their right shoulder to see who's behind them. That's called shoulder shuffle.
Adam
Mishu Hilmy (09:35.822)
Yeah. Shoulder shuffle. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. More used to sort of the darting side long glances. Who's, yeah.
I'm to the phone as soon as you talk about the budget of your film. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. This is probably a projection, but maybe we're similar. Like I think I very much do value the depth of a one-on-one conversation. do think group meetings are super valuable and maybe it's my own hangups around, have a overextension of value and connection. And sometimes in group settings, it's a little bit harder to have like a connection because it's mostly like, we're all, we're all trying to have a fun time and it's more random of what might be sort of fully explored or discussed.
Yeah, but I think in the end that is what we're there for. We're there to make connections. And I don't know, I really enjoy even if it's just meeting somebody who's a PA, like a production assistant, and then finding out that they have an interest in another thing and maybe collaborating so that we can both grow in the same vein. But then there are those folks that I'm like, I don't know if you have the credentials. like, not even the credentials. It's like, do you? Like, have you?
How did you get in? There's been a couple, but it's just like a very, very small percentage of the-
Mishu Hilmy (10:54.35)
Totally, totally. Yeah, I mean, it's like all, it's all relationships. It's like that, certain boundary-ness of like, oh, you're a little bit earlier in your career. I'll be polite and respectful and considerate and, you know, seek what I'm seeking. But sometimes it's like knowing, knowing that energy of, yeah, we're nice, we're getting along, but I don't think I can help you or I don't feel comfortable helping you.
where it's like a person just from the street just like wandered in like it has been yeah like and those are just still fun because i mean most of my friends are are muggles anyway like we call muggles are civilians you know
Right. Right.
Yeah, no, I'm a filmmaker.
And you gotta have those too. It's a nice mix.
Mishu Hilmy (11:35.862)
Yeah. And then for you with the podcast, like how are you balancing, you know, you're working on a production right now and you also do stand up and have other kinds of aspirations as well. How do you juggle it? How do you balance it?
I know. Again, I don't think I have time to think about that. And I think again, that is a gift. I just kind of Tetris my schedule over and over again, and I'm trying to find a flow to it. But I think in general, having a lot of interest and having kind of a few balls in the air is what I thrive in, I think. Because I'm solution-based.
I'm not problem-based necessarily. So having the podcast and having to allocate, I don't know about you, but I'm like on a good week, it's like three to five hours. On a bad week, it's like a five to 10 hours. So just knowing that, okay, this is gonna be a little more intense on my schedule this week. What can I remove? And it's usually hanging out with friends. So I'm trying to bring that back.
I really convinced myself like, it's good to hang out with somebody for an hour. Kind of like you said, it's like having coffee with somebody with no intentions is honestly very fruitful as well.
Yeah. I just finished reading Jenny Odell's, to do nothing, which is somewhat ironic title, but it's a real good read on, know, this, we have all these media systems around us at all times and it creates this energy of like contribute, contribute to feed the, feed the collapse of context and social media writ large. So it's just something like to be mindful of like that energy of the price you choose to pay for growth or challenge or whatnot. But it's like, am I reinforcing a pattern of I am
Mishu Hilmy (13:22.346)
continually diminishing my social relationships to focus on work? Or is it just like, this season, this month, this quarter, I might be a little bit more focused. I think the risk is like, if you don't have that awareness, then it's like, shoot, I just spent 10 years where I see my friends once a month.
That's why I think my Google calendar, I can't do printed calendars anymore because I just have to scratch things out all the time. But my Google calendar is always on a monthly view and everything's color coded so that I know exactly like, okay, there's a lot of yellow. Yellow is podcast. I'm like, okay, so I got to get more purple. Purple is hanging out with friends. And then, you know, in that like, it's like a bird's eye view to my entire month. And like, what is, what the give and takes of my schedule.
When it is give and take, how strategic are you? Is it at the start of the year? Is it at the month level or beyond to go? I'd like to focus more on standup this month, more on writing, more on the podcast or is it a little bit more flexible or you're still kind of discovering it.
I I usually try to do an audit of my calendar at the end of the year, like between Christmas and New Year's, and just kind of see what was fruitful, what was not. But I can already tell you the podcast has been very fruitful for me. It Oh, nice. I mean, it brings me joy. I don't know about you, but every time I finish a podcast episode, I am happier than I was when I started. And that just goes to show the connection.
Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (14:48.204)
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. Like I really value the conversation. think the challenge is like the relationship with the after the conversation of like, okay, sending it. think in your instance, you might have an editor, but I do. I do. the post-production. so it's like that relationship of the publishing I just don't feel particularly excited about. And, that's my own hang up. No, that's.
Thank God.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (15:10.882)
totally fair. have a background in marketing. So I try to automate as much as humanly possible when it comes to publishing. But I think like I have kind of a marketing eye even for all the projects that I'm either in pre or post production on. Like there's always like a bit of a marketing lens on it. And I've just had to develop that because nobody else in my
circle is. Whatever my weakness is, I don't necessarily try and work on my weakness. I try and bring a person who can help with it and who loves like editing. That is a total weakness. my God. It takes a specific like eye and precision and I just like don't have that. So I bring in somebody who does love it and then then like assemble that group. Marketing is something that I kind of enjoy actually. I enjoy the puzzle of it, the Tetris of it. Like if
this and that and if I publish at this hour versus this because I also do like the social media for a bunch of stuff. Yeah, and collaborations are also thinker are the most important. Would you ever outsource the editing portion?
I don't know genuinely because this is like for me, I think we might chat in the past about like, this is more of an experiment, the podcast and just seeing just where it might go, where it might grow into, but I'm not looking for hyper growth. I know if I do more clips, there's probably a better chance of reach, not necessarily looking for reach right now. So yeah, it's a risk reward. Would I rather expend
either money or social relationships for this project, or would I rather save that for something that I'm more typically interested in like a short film or a feature project. So I think it's like risk reward of I don't necessarily want to drop X number a month for this thing because I'm doing it good enough. Maybe not the
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (17:00.838)
No, no, no. Yeah, of course. Your podcast is great. And I think it does something. It's crazy because just having it focus on a lot of Chicago industry folks makes it niche in itself. Right? And so I think that that's just a wonderful niche to be in, kind of automatically.
Yeah. Yeah. how do you sort of develop your relationship with delegation?
I think it's like everything. kind of throw it on a wall and see what sticks, you know? I'm a very gullible person. I call myself like a goldfish. Like I will forget anything like in like a week I'm like, yeah, that did happen, didn't it? So I just kind of trust people. You know, what, you're innocent until proven guilty, dun dun dun, law and order style. So it's just like, trust them.
Mm.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (17:54.262)
And then if they give you, if they're just like not punctual or, you know, their taste, it does not align with mine or anybody else on the team. Then that's when we have to like cut ties. I haven't had to cut ties with anybody. It's just like the project ends and perhaps they're, they're not the first person I'm going to call it next time. But I think I heard this somewhere. It's like hire, hire a lot, but fire quickly. So it's just like, no one went to step away if you need to. But yeah, I think.
I think I'm just a very gullible, very trusting person. Even when I just got started a couple of years ago, anybody who wanted to do a short film with me, I was like, yeah, what do you want to do? You've never directed? I'll write something and I'll get, we'll get a crew together and let's go. And some were incredible experiences and some live in my YouTube privately.
You know, yeah, yeah. Here's my list of private like, yeah, it's, think it's an interesting thing to like be aware of. Cause it is ultimately trust and maybe comfort with that trust. Cause it's like, yeah, sure. Let's, let's give it a shot. And maybe like worst case, not where we're like best case, maybe there's some supervising going on to put it back on track, but worst case is like, just, it's a mess. It's this. Yeah. Then you move on like, all right, instead of releasing it this month, maybe it'll take four months to release. But I do think it's an interesting exercise to really meditate on.
And then we move on.
Mishu Hilmy (19:11.892)
your comfort with trust and ultimately it's trusting yourself. Like, all right, if this person can't do what I was asking, I'll survive. I'll find, I'll find another way around it.
But I'm also not doing like my, I call them my baby projects, like my heart, like this is the project that I love like a child. Like I'm not, those I still have in pre-production, I'm not touching those until I have like the team that I want. But I'm happy to play with any other script. And that's what I, that's how I think the podcast and doing stand-up comedy have really helped because it's instant gratification, but it's also instant feedback.
So if a joke lands on stage or on the podcast, then I'm like, oh, maybe there's something there. And then other ideas kind of pop into mind. And again, it's the same thing. was just like going with the flow and not being in that creative space as opposed to analyzing everything that is led to this point. Cause yeah, that's a, that's a loop that I have been caught in before. And don't want to get caught in again.
Yeah. Yeah. Right. I don't think there's ever been a problem that overthinking has solved. It's just like, wait a minute. It's just thinking. The problem is overthinking.
At some point, I used to ruminate in the dark. Like my partner would come into the room and he'd like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm staring at a black wall. Like I just need a blank wall for right now. But then I just started saying, I'm not a thinker, I'm a doer. And every time I got into that loop, I would just say, I'm a doer. And so just standing up and doing something is always better than just sitting down and kind of thinking your way out of it.
Mishu Hilmy (20:48.302)
Right. mean, what's also wild in terms of doing is like for in your example, like I think you've probably released over 20, 20 plus podcast episodes at this point. And it's like, that's, that's more than literally 99 % of every podcast.
I recently heard that if you can make it past like the third episode like most don't even make it past two. High five us, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. So we can, can, we can end strong if we want, it's yeah, but it's the doing and I don't know, maybe again, projection, but I think we're probably similar in that it's not easy for us to rest on our laurels. Cause in the spirit of doing it's like the curiosity, I want to do this, I want to do that, but you're not going to be satisfied just, I don't know if you're going to be satisfied. Like, all right, I did this much. It's like, no, it's maybe it's more, I don't know. I'm curious to your, your, relationship to where you're at, like output wise or, you know, making things wise.
Well, I'm like you. Yeah, I think you're spot on. We're like, I want to see where this goes. I want to see what's on the other side of a year of this podcast. Because I already had a couple of collaborations happen with even the small amount of episodes that I've released. I've already made really great friendships. I've gone to coffee with folks afterwards.
Mm-hmm.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (22:04.01)
One of our guests, so the editor of the podcast is also a producer, the producer of the podcast and a producer of other films. And we cast somebody from one of our episodes. He'd never even seen her. He just did it from the audio. So it's just like, things are happening. Things are moving. And I'm so curious of what is gonna happen, because so many great things have already happened. It's about, again, it's like, if we just do the thing we love, and if we are the most genuine,
that we possibly can be. I think that that's the money pot, money spot, gold, what, the gold pot. I'm trying to think of like a casino reference I can.
Yeah
And the jackpot. Yeah. Do you think there's something valuable in, you know, expressing yourself, particularly as possible. don't know if I would go as far as to say is that it, you got not that you're saying this guarantees success, but I do think it helps build a certain momentum or relationship with your work where you get clarity on what's important to you.
Not even.
Mishu Hilmy (23:13.098)
And that I think helps you redefine success rather than like staring at a dark wall thinking like, I just do these machinations and maneuvers, that'll get me what I want. It's like, nah, just keep doing things and you'll, you'll like make your voice. She'll create your voice.
Sometimes you have to work backwards. Sometimes you have to find that voice and do the thing and then realize what the purpose of it maybe was. And going back to that question of what is enough in the other projects as well, I think, because I've only started producing since I think late 2023. And in 2024, I just did as many short terms as I possibly could with anybody that would collaborate with me.
And then I thought, okay, I've made some really great ones. All right, what is the next step? And so we're now moving into feature films. And so that's a completely different skill set. But the podcast is a different skill set. The standup is a different skill set. And I just think these are all muscles that need to be utilized at all times because it just makes me the most creative. I think, do you find that you're more creative now that you're in this flow as well?
I think I find that I'm more intentional. think what the podcast has given me is a certain space to talk with other people and see their sort of processes and, but also help get cleared of like what I genuinely enjoy or I'm genuinely curious about. So a little bit more intentional and more forgiving where it's like, I don't need to be as hardcore as say three or four years ago where I'm like writing.
a feature script every two months, a every two or three months. mean, I have like 10 or 12 specs that I'm like, all right, most of them are trash, which is fine.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (25:07.544)
I'm sure that's not true.
Yeah, yeah. So it's been nice to just have a reflective space there. I think also was like, cause we're multi-disciplinary, you and I, and having had done standup years ago, the relationship with tempo is different because you're also doing filmmaking, but you also know the freedom of standup where you can have an idea in the morning, go to a weird mic and see if it stands, if it has legs or if it doesn't, versus I think it's much harder to develop the relationship with.
Something like, know, image making, video making, filmmaking, more people are involved, more locations are involved, more time is involved.
That's when like trusting your collaborators taste more than maybe their resume or more than their skill set. Because you can't teach taste. And if your tastes are different, then it's just not going to align. And that's something that I'm learning the hard way, I think. Because there are some folks that have the skill set and the vision is just different. It's like trying to make just a comedy and it turns out into a drama and you're like, how did this happen?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like, I think that's what's so challenging too is it's because it's about discernment and point of view. And when you're producing, it's like, all right, I might love this director as a person, but we have different tastes or different aesthetics. And then when we're talking about the project, it's like, Oh, you're really interested in something I don't want to express, but we're looking at the same script.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (26:33.748)
And do you solely direct what you write or do you hand off your scripts to others as well?
I wouldn't right now, I wouldn't have someone, I'm just not interested in having someone direct something I've written. I wouldn't be opposed to it. have such a, like I have, you know, hundreds of one page scripts, two page scripts that would be a fun exercise in doing it, but I'm more aligned on the other way around. Like I would consider directing things from friends that they've written as long as like in terms of the collaborative process where I don't want to say I'm anywhere near a perfectionist, but I have a very stringent.
thoughts on what makes a script tight and like interesting and funny, you know, that's revisions are important.
I don't want to direct my own stuff. That is the one hat that I refuse to put on. It it requires so much. And that is another one of like, I don't have the skillset to know what camera lens to use. I'll probably be like, can you do the whooshing thing? And it would just not be a good day on set.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that also goes back to your trust and delegation collaborators, right? Cause I would pitch, you know, I'm sure one day you will, whether it's a 60 second thing in the next two years, you'll direct something. believe it, but it's no, I'm like, all right, I might not be the strongest with the technical elements. So then I just lean on my DP a little bit more. And you've, you've probably heard plenty of interviews where folks are like, yeah, I don't know lens focal lengths and know, ISOs and all that. So I'll let them do that. But it does take a lot of energy.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (28:02.158)
think actors are already directors. I I think the really good actors are already directing themselves before, and then it's fine-tuning. And then the director comes in and fine-tunes the performance and is intentional with the lens. But I mean, the best actors know how to throw focus at somebody else and know that there's going be a cut there to get the reaction of the other actor. So again, don't think that I need to direct because that's already in me for the performance.
The performance is acting is what I love to do. I sincerely, I've been like talking to people and I'm like, look, I'll produce. just don't want to be, I don't want to be like the top, like the executive producer. I just can't be the number one. I need my brain to relax a little bit because everybody has their strengths. And again, like the directing aspect, it's so much. There's just so much you have to think about.
In my opinion, it's everybody else's job to make the director look really good. Like that is the job of the actor to make the director look good. The director's job is to make the writer look really good. So we're all just trying to make each other look very, very good and hopefully make a really spectacular project.
Some of the stuff you produce, you also write and the things you act in, typically you try to act what you write in or is there a mix of like you'll act in something you haven't written? I mean, naturally you'll act in something you written, but like, what are you finding that you're producing more of?
I'm so selfish. Like, I'm not, this is not altruistic. I didn't start writing and producing because, you know, my heart wanted it. I basically was like, I need reps. I need, as in like muscle, I need reps in acting. So I noticed that a lot of my friends who were directors and producers had a similar vibe in their reel and they needed a different.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (29:58.996)
style. So that's how I kind of got started. We're like, how about we do a short film in the style of a mockumentary? How about we do a short film in the style of only murders in the building? How about we do a short in a horror sense, in a comedy? And so that way, if when the powers that be, ask you if you have any reels on a specific genre, then the entire group
the entire, all of us collaborators can say, we worked on this. Here you go. We know how to do that genre. Because everybody knows how to do it. We just don't have perhaps the materials. And if you don't have the materials, you're not going to get the job.
Totally. It goes back to trust. It's a high cost, highly expensive industry with high risk and low trust. So all that you can do is like provide as much evidence like, hey, look, we can technically do it. And then the biggest trust winner is you make other people money. That's Have you made other people money with the stuff you make?
I'm proud to say that I have. But it's like, can't walk around like, hello, hi, sir, how are you? I will make you money. Please cast me. It's just not, yeah, it's tough. It's tough. This is an industry on perception. And so I feel like all of your materials as a producer, director, anything have to be at the top of your game. So.
If I have something that is not up to snuff, it has to come out of my, like if the headshot does not represent me, you have to get new ones. If your reel is not up to date, then you have to, if your website looks like your mom helped you with it, it's, probably, you know, you have to be, you have to be ready before the opportunity arises in this industry. And I think that's the tough, that's one of the toughest things. Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (31:44.556)
Yeah. I also think it's harder too, because it's a high supply, low demand industry and that there's a lot of people who want to do it.
Good job.
It's a fun job, but also maybe there's a lot of exploitation within it. It's like a, it's a strange, strange thing to like have the, either the joy, the curiosity, or the personal integrity to do so in a way that is aligned with your values. And I think you, you, you typically do that very well, especially with your collaborators. And I think a fair amount of, are your collaborators also friends? So like, how do you juggle, you know, the business side, which is like.
It has great headshots, a great reel, and it's kind of bloodless versus the maybe the creative personal side of, I doing this out of insecurity or fear? Am I doing this out of, you know, love of process or love of self-expression? Like, how do you relate to those two? Maybe they're not polar opposites, but they're different, you know, standing points.
vampire like seek blood no
Mishu Hilmy (32:45.25)
Yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I think this is actually pretty interesting because I've had this conversation with a few folks where I actually love the business side of things. And even in college when I was, because I went to conservatory for acting, even in the acting world, I was always.
I had one foot in the business side as well, because I don't think we can do our jobs properly if we don't have both sides. If we were not fluent in both languages, because you have to be fluent in creative language and you have to be fluent in the business language. I think during the pandemic, I was very broke, like most creatives. And so I became a paralegal.
serendipitous and I became really comfortable with speaking to attorneys and judges and drafting complaints and contracts and all that good stuff. And then that only served me when I started my company, which is kind of wild. How I manage it per se, I feel that because I started off as an actor, as an actor, especially a younger actor where you have to do the jobs that come to you, you're already working in a box, right? And you're thinking, how free can I be within these limitations?
But I also think that that can be helpful because then you can create really, really wonderful and hyper-specific things and find the joy within those parameters. And I think that can translate to writing and that can translate to producing and directing. As a writer, you know, one of the parameters that we made was, we want a mockumentary. Okay.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (34:17.303)
but you can do whatever you want within that specific genre. And so I think it's finding the creative joy within the boundaries that you have been given. And if you can't, I feel like that speaks more of maybe perhaps the ego and the pride versus again, the creative and maybe curious side of the creativity aspect of somebody.
I think that's really great to speak to cause it's that, that ego element. think having that need for growth and challenge is very important. And at the same time, is it at the, is it at a level that doesn't make sense? Like, you know, if you're 20 years old and you've never made anything and you're walking around, it's like, have a $5 million script. It's like, that's maybe a little bit ego driven versus like, Hey, I'm blah, blah.
I got an iPhone. got two friends who are free this weekend. My living room is a mess. Let's make some like little weird thing.
See, this is what I want to talk about because I find it so funny because I would go with the latter person, right? Like I would want to collaborate with that person that says, I have an iPhone and a free weekend, let's go. And they'd be like, all right, like what can we make in your messy apartment before you move out? Which that almost happened to me as well. Like a friend was moving out and I was like, let's use it. But it's so funny because...
I have projects in pre-production and I'm being very sensible with a budget. Not sensible, like I'm not saying that it's going to be low quality, but it's going to be low budget, high quality. I don't like similar to Alex Thompson and Kelly O'Sullivan with Ghost Light and all of their wonderful films that they have created. But again, they have the materials to show it.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (36:03.116)
and I don't and I have a problem when I go up to somebody and I say, well, this is the budget and it's not seven figures and they're like, okay. And they start doing the shoulder shuffle and looking at their phone and I'm like, dude, if you, and then at that point, at that point I just give up. And in my head, I'm not mean, this is not mean. I swear, I don't mean it in a mean way, but I'm like, you know, I feel like you're gonna wish you had taken me up on this offer and that's just gonna, and I can't do anything about it.
until once it comes out. And then I'm like, well, and I have had people come up to me afterwards and be like, hey, you did that thing. I'm like, yeah, we went ahead and did it. And it was really wonderful. We'll do the next one.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's like, I'll like, can only have the good faith and trust that people have their own filters for their own reason. Or maybe it's cynical and they're like a status oriented and it's like, I only, I only talk to people, make it the big, that's also valid too. But people make filters out of self preservation to some degree.
Yeah, absolutely. And I went to AFM last year, the American film market, and last year was in Vegas. And there was a group of folks, first time filmmakers, but they were older corporate guys. And they were asking for $10 million for like a 10 episode series. And I was like, y'all, y'all serious? Like, am I crazier than those guys? Like, I don't understand.
I've come to see the industry is more closely related to a casino than most other industries. And that's that. you're pulling, you're hoping you'll make money out of it. And if I treat it like a casino, then I'll be a little bit more responsible with my money. There's no risk. It's technically an uncertain endeavor because the outcome is virtually impossible to figure out. Most likely you'll lose money.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (37:49.87)
Yeah, and similar to a casino, it's great people watching. Oh my god. It is great.
Yeah. Yeah. And then I think, you know, you're talking about sort of the paralegal work, having that experience, you know, dealing with sort of the technical writing and judges and different sort of hierarchies and dynamics. do think the best, in my opinion, the best way to learn about any industry is reading contracts. I think that would demystify everything. Spend, you know, two hours going through your SAG union agreements. It's like seeing the invisible web of what makes everything work. So I imagine that.
I do, actually,
Mishu Hilmy (38:23.896)
paralegal experiences, but lots of rewards and just like your curiosity and your knowledge.
Yeah. And it helps so much on set in preparation, even for the podcast. Like I have a legal blurb at the end of mine. like, cause we talk like at my podcast, we don't take it too seriously because we talk about conspiracies, but I wanted to make sure that sponsors didn't feel like we know they were affiliated with conspiracies and like paranormal stuff. So I had to put a blurb, but like I already knew that I needed to do all of this.
For contracts, I was asked to be on set and in front of the camera and I still hadn't seen my contract and I was like, sorry, I'm not going to. And people push back and PAs don't know necessarily that they're asking a lot of folks to start work without a contract. And so I get a lot of pushback, but because of the experiences of feeling like an equal.
to, I guess, judges and lawyers who, back then, I thought, wow, well, they're smart. I learned how to juggle in college, and they actually got a master's. So feeling like I could go toe to toe with them has empowered me moving forward. Because people on set don't necessarily know what's going on all the time either. And so, yeah, just feeling empowered at all times to speak up if something doesn't feel right is invaluable.
Totally. And was La La inspired by your work? it's- La La from death.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (39:48.204)
It's La La Firm. and it's just, it's like capital L lowercase a because they miss, they, it was supposed to be LA and they, misspelled it. Yeah. So definitely use a lot of what I experienced. I remember being in,
in the office of, I've worked at several law firms. And so I remember one specific one where I was like looking around and was like, this does not feel like suits. This feels like the office. Like there's somebody yelling in the phone, like, no, don't do that. And then like crashing sounds and somebody delivers like donuts and you're like, where did these come from? And like, people just don't know what is going on. I think, I think, yeah, working at a law firm is much funnier and chaotic than.
than like the serious suits that we're used to. the TV shows that we're used to.
I know we chatted, I don't know if it's okay if I bring this up, but we chatted about food. Absolutely. I'd love to, yeah, that's up. like, how have you been taking steps toward, you know, playing around in that world of, is it like kind of travel, food, vlogging and that work?
Yeah, I remember telling you if I could just eat for a living, like I would be super happy. That's something that I'm just putting out into the universe. I don't know the- Yeah, like whoever hears this. Yeah, I think I'm just putting that out into the world right now. I did do two like-
Mishu Hilmy (41:06.36)
Yes, I did try to help.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (41:15.846)
Instagram real TikTok on two of my favorite taco spots in South Texas. But honestly, soon after we started the podcast and I mean, the social clips for that takes, takes enough of my time. But I would, I mean, I would love to do that. I think social media is just more time consuming than I think we think of, right? And, and, but people, it's like dancing, you know, really great dancers make it look easy, but in reality, it took hours and craft.
And I think social media, takes hours and it takes a lot of craft and a lot of analytics and figuring out trends and making precise edits because you only have what 15 to maybe 60 seconds, probably more like 30 to 45 seconds, which is wild. It's wild.
Yeah, if anything, it's closer to three, right? That's when they're like, hey, you gotta get them hooked.
Yeah, in three seconds! I was like, I don't even know how to do this!
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I see it as a craft. I even see to a degree it can be an art form. think it does get challenging because it's, it can be a commercial art form to a degree where it's like the goal of this person is to support a business or, or not. I do think there's documentary elements and like an artistry, but the choice of like what kind of travel vlogger, food vlogger are you, is it, you know, are you getting promotion?
Mishu Hilmy (42:39.192)
promote it to, or pay to like go to this place and serve it or more objective. And there's no right or wrong way to it, but I think social media does lend itself toward a, advertising model.
Absolutely. And I think there was something I heard, I can't remember where, that a big reason why comedies weren't doing well is because of social media. social media, like, yeah, we have a couple of dramas here and there, but it's mainly comedy. It's mainly comedic. And it's kind of just like...
your reality TV trash type of situation as well too. And so I find that fascinating as well. Yeah, it's, like more of the comedy aspect of social media and skincare. I'm not gonna lie. I do. That is my algorithm right now, skincare. So, but I do see the capitalistic aspect to it. And now they're doing, I don't know if you saw, I mean, this is really, it's basically a QVC, but on TikTok. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
They're doing really well, which is crazy.
Mishu Hilmy (43:37.166)
was called. Yeah. So it was called like what's not not WhatsApp like something something weird. Yeah.
Yeah, and that is another turn. like, wow. You what my grandma does on a Sunday night is in people's palms.
Yeah. Yeah. I guess I'm curious, like, because he did mention, you know, social media does take time. does take craft and to a degree it's, you know, these platforms are deriving a lot of value from millions, if not near billions of folks giving free labor. So what's your relationship with the trade-off of like, yes, there's potential opportunity for reach, opportunity for growth and expanding a platform and a network. And also like I'm working a job or I'm doing this, I'm stand up.
producing something, I'm doing my podcast. Now I'm also, you know, unpaid writing up captions and doing that. What's, you know, what's, how do you relate to maybe the head game of that time and energy trade off?
I think it's just a necessary evil. Like I just think it just has to be done. I mean, I have friends who've taken a stand and decided very early on that they would never make any social media accounts and their lives have taken a different turn. And that's their choice, but specifically for acting. I don't know about a writer, I don't know about producer, directing. I can't speak to that.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (44:55.298)
But as an actor, think a lot of casting directors, lot of directors just want to know that you're a good person and you're funny and they want to know what you look like, what you sound like, the cadence of your voice. And I think for actors, it's absolutely necessary to have some social media posts and just, and it's less about the marketing aspect, especially for a personal account. It's more about the connection and I think who someone is.
And I'm still finding that. I don't think that I've cracked the code. And I think that's why I really like having a company, having a platform like my podcast, because I can think of that as a business. I can't think of myself as a business that doesn't, I can't have that bird's eye view on who I am. It can't be objective. So I think that I'm still trying to find that balance as well. Do you find yourself spending a lot of time on your personal social media?
No, I mean, I, this year, especially, no, I think when TikTok was shut down, like the first week of January, I'm like, I guess that's done. and then it came back, but it gave me a moment to reflect, but it's interesting because like, you know, three or four years ago, I was a little bit more optimistic and curious. I'm grateful for having a very small platform for my production company because it's mostly to show goodwill. Like, Hey, I'm not going to like tell you to audition for something. And then.
send you to a warehouse where it's like, am I going to get murdered? As an actor, you've been to enough auditions where it's like, wait, is this a bona fide production company? Or am I just like wasting, you know, my time? that was partly it. But during that time I was, I was more curious, but now I think I'm, I went back to the staring at the dark wall ruminating versus like, Hey, do social media, be curious and build a platform. And now I'm like, but do I want to?
I'm
Mishu Hilmy (46:45.012)
It comes and goes. I'm in a reflective state right now.
And I think it's interesting how you're posing the question of unpaid labor. And I think that that's the difference for me. think if it brings me, if it brings somebody joy to post on social media, then do it. As a personal account on like podcasts, like I just have to post. But for my personal account, it has to bring me joy. And I think that's why I don't, when I post, it's not one of those like, I just grabbed my iPhone and I talked to it because that's just not who I am. That's not genuine to me.
But I would, and that's where standup comes in, I would rather take a full hour, write down a five minute set, go perform it, record that, come back, cut those into chunks and then post it. Because that to me is much more fun and more authentic to who I am. So yeah, I see how you're talking about with labor. It's also...
It's kind of like you talked about the entertainment industry as well. It's a fun job. It's an enticing job. of course, there's so many more folks doing it as opposed to like, I'm going to do accounting for free. know, like no one's saying that because it's not a sexy job. And no offense to any accountants listening to this. Thank you for your service. But if it brings you joy, think that's the meter to kind of hit.
Yeah, I think so. think that goes back to intention. And for me, like at one point there was an intention where I felt very connected to it. now through whatever, you know, is instead of change through growth over the past year, I'm not as connected to it. know, a year, two years ago, I was happily dropping reels, adding unhinged TikToks to my business. I think I did like one was like a bird filter and I was like just dropping wisdom flying.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (48:31.128)
those look like? And I'm curious.
Mishu Hilmy (48:39.128)
like made no sense. it's also like my choice, right? It's like my choice to contextualize the experience as unpaid labor. Is that helpful? Is that harmful? It depends on the scenario. Some say the more times you're at the slot machine and you can pull the lever, the higher the chance you grow there. But,
Yeah
That's the addictiveness of the business too, right? Like, at any moment. Well, yeah, but that's how they hook you.
I think you're doing a fair amount of like fun, engaged community work and building community. like, how are you staying motivated even though this industry is like really uncertain?
I think I'm just trying to be present. I'm just trying to be present with what I'm working on and I kind of have blinders on because I'm in my own journey. Like I'm very competitive with myself. And I think as long as I keep the competitiveness to just me and being the best artist that I can be, I don't think it serves me to look around because the folks that I admire did it anyway, right? And did it because they loved it, because they had no choice. And I think I'm at that point where
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (49:47.052)
I'm doing it anyway because I have no choice. This is what I absolutely love. And at some point I wasn't getting like the parts that I wanted, not like parts and say, I didn't, I wasn't in the stories that I wanted out in the world. And so I started writing them. And I just think that I'm treating, this is gonna start sounding like a yoga retreat.
like
It's just like that water metaphor of like you go over, under, or through, right? And so it's just continuing to find different ways to get to the other side and just staying present and being with people and being in community. And I think like this type of conversation really feeds my soul. I don't know. Like I said, I'm always happier at the end of a conversation than the beginning.
Have you found that you're more hopeful or more cynical or have you found any changes in how you view the industry after all these episodes?
Yeah, I think overall I'm just generally an optimistic disposition and am hopeful. I do think like suffering is an inevitability of life, but I'm still optimistic. I think it's like there's no, this industry and most industries, virtually none of it's in your control and maybe on a good day you can influence it slightly. But if I'm focusing on what I can influence or what I can't control, then I'll be miserable all the time rather than did I email Ilse about chatting today.
Mishu Hilmy (51:13.944)
Did I write for 10 minutes of screenplay? Did I brainstorm? Did I stare at the wall and muse about how lovely life is? That to me is more important than focusing on like, why can't I get someone to pay me to make art? Like, that's out of my hands. So I'm pretty optimistic.
awesome. Yeah, I feel similarly and I'm really glad that we chatted and this has been absolutely wonderful.
Yes, yes, absolutely. I'll say I'm looking forward to talking with you. Absolutely.
you
Mishu Hilmy (51:50.296)
Before setting you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed this show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little mischief motivation. Here's a prompt.
repetition over magic just choose one small creative behavior whether it's journaling, sketching, vocal warm-ups, whatever, doodles, etc. Do it for five minutes a day for the next five days. Track only the consistency and not the quality. The main thing is just showing up. just create that habit. Do it. Do five minutes a day of one thing. Just one thing. Give it a shot and check back in in five days. See if you want to continue. Takes about
three to eight weeks for habits to form, et cetera. All right, thanks for listening this far. Hope you have a great rest of your day.
Ilse Zacharias Rivera (53:04.232)
Absolutely