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Released every Tuesday, the LOUNGE LIZARDS podcast helps listeners navigate the experience of finding and enjoying premium cigars (both Cuban and non-Cuban) and quality spirits. Episodes are normally around 90 minutes long and feature a variety of different topics including food, travel, life, sports and work.
The podcast features seven members: Rooster, Poobah, Gizmo, Senator, Pagoda, Grinder and Bam Bam.
This is not your typical cigar podcast. We’re a group of friends who love sharing cigars, whiskey and a good laugh.
Join us and become a card-carrying lounge lizard yourself! Email us at hello@loungelizardspod.com to join the conversation and be featured on an upcoming episode!
**Gizmo:** [00:00:00] Welcome to the Lounge Lizards podcast. It's so good to have you here. It's a leisure and lifestyle podcast founded on our love of premium cigars, as well as whiskey, travel, food, work, and whatever else we feel like getting into. My name is Gizmo. Tonight I'm joined by Rooster, Senator, Grinder, and Bam Bam, and our plan is to smoke a cigar, drink some bourbon, talk about life, and of course, have some laughs.
So take this as your 128th official invitation to join us and become a card carrying lounge lizard. Once a week, we're going to smoke a new world cigar tonight, share our thoughts on it and give you our formal lizard rating. We share our wide ranging interview with Dunbarton founder and master blender, Steve Saka recorded live at PCA 2024, where we discuss his approach to both blending and business, the discerning taste of the modern smoker and his surprising thoughts on Cuban cigars, all among a variety of other things for the next two hours.
So sit back, get your favorite drink, light up a cigar and enjoy. As we pair Weller Antique 107 Bourbon with Dunbarton Tobacco Trust Sin Compromiso in Seleccion [00:01:00] No. 4. A Robusto Extra tonight from Nicaragua on the pod. It's the Dunbarton Tobacco Trust. Sin compromiso, selección number four, it's a beautiful 54 ring gauge cigar by five inches long.
And boys, we have a very, very special episode ahead of us tonight, as we are going to cut in an episode we did live in Las Vegas at PCA 2024 with the founder of Dunbarton Tobacco and Trust, Steve Saka, so we have a very, very unique episode ahead of us tonight, Bam. Yes, we do. Bam's having some technical
**Rooster:** difficulties there.
**Gizmo:** Bam broke his headphones as we hit record. I can't
**Rooster:** do this.
**Gizmo:** Have you ever plugged in a headphone before, babe? I
**Bam Bam:** can't see the hole. Don't go there!
Motherfucker.
**Gizmo:** So boys, tonight is going to be a very, very different episode. And bam, I'd like you to note on the ledger, the procedural changes that are going to happen tonight, as we cut, cut in an interview, we did live in Las Vegas with the [00:02:00] founder, Steve Saka. Bam just erased himself from the ledger.
**Senator:** Just for the record, you just put him in charge and every bit of bam of accountability has been erased from it. Not true. I now have redundancy, so I'm good.
**Gizmo:** All right, boys, let's cut this thing. See, we're getting on the cold draw on the wrapper. It's got a unique band on it. It's like a Celtic cross almost.
**Bam Bam:** Yeah, it's a deep dark green, almost black, and um, cream borders. Beautiful band.
**Senator:** Ben, what are you getting on the cold draw?
**Bam Bam:** So I'm getting, it's unusual, I don't think I've ever gotten this in any other cigar. I'm getting almost like a currant or a strawberry, like a deep berry cold draw.
**Senator:** I got the same, a ton of berry, and it's crazy.
It's insane. For this to be a Nicaraguan cigar, I don't think I've ever cut a Nicaraguan cigar before. and gotten like a blast of berry on the cold draw.
**Bam Bam:** It's one of the most delicious cold draws I've experienced. I
**Rooster:** kind of get fig. Yeah,
**Bam Bam:** I get fig note. Fig, fruit, yeah. Very traditional fig. I gotta
**Gizmo:** say the wrapper and the [00:03:00] foot of the cigar smell, it's very unique.
Very nice. Super distinct. Better
**Bam Bam:** noted, yeah. I like the vanilla on the wrapper. That's very faint, but it's there.
**Senator:** Yeah, for me it's like berry and vanilla on the wrapper. Unbelievable. It's like so intense, the aroma. It's like no other kind of. wrapper I've really ever smelled that you just, it's really pronounced.
**Bam Bam:** And the wrapper's really, I think, exquisitely rolled here. Beautiful.
**Grinder:** It's, it's slightly oily
**Bam Bam:** too. Just a touch, right?
**Senator:** I also like, uh, there's a, you know, nice gentle box press on this. Yeah, it
**Gizmo:** is. It feels better in the hand, I think, than it would if it was rounded.
**Grinder:** Correct.
**Gizmo:** Like, I think the box press just, it feels nice in the hand, easy to hold.
**Grinder:** Yep. I think, I think that, you know, having spoken to Steve about it, And, and the unique way they, you know, cultivate these leaves and they mature them and age them, you, you definitely probably get some of that in the cold draw, right? Some of those flavors.
**Rooster:** All right, let's slide them.
**Gizmo:** All right, boys, let's light this thing.
Tobacco and [00:04:00] Trust Sin Compromiso. It's the Selexio number four. And again, it's a 54 ring gauge Robusto Extra. By five inches long. And like I said, while we light, we recorded an interview with Steve live in Las Vegas. We did smoke the cigar. Of course we didn't rate it, but we decided to come home, come home and package that interview inside an episode where we're going to smoke this along.
With you guys while you listen to the interview and then come back in a. A couple thirds and talk about the cigar and the pairing and give it a rating at the end. What a great interview that was. It was. Real, real treat. And he gave us a lot of time. I was expecting maybe 10, 15, 20 minutes. Oh yeah. We sat with him for almost an hour.
So I think there's going to be a lot of really interesting information here for the listeners. And again, I'm excited to listen to it. Yeah. You know, hearing it back. Giz,
**Senator:** is your lighter okay over there? I don't know. Jesus. I thought Pagoda was in your seat. I thought it was like a swarm of bees descending into [00:05:00] the room. Seriously, exactly.
**Bam Bam:** This cigar is delicious. There it is. Wow. Delicious cigar.
**Gizmo:** Man, very similar and, you know, obviously, when we're sitting with Steve, In Las Vegas. It's not the opportune time to really dive into the notes of a cigar. But we, we really had this experience and we talked about it after the interview, that the cigar was really unique and different and interesting.
And especially on the light, those initial notes are just something that you've never tasted before, especially in a Nicaraguan. Very,
**Bam Bam:** it's very rich on the light and smooth. And
**Gizmo:** there's a very unique sweetness to it that again, Grindr alluded to Steve. You'll hear this in a few moments, but Steve talking about the process that they go through, aging the tobacco, choosing the tobacco, blending it, and his intentions with that, provide a really unique cigar here.
And again, this is the second time we're smoking it. It's identical to the one we had in Las Vegas. So how would you characterize the [00:06:00] sweetness that we're getting? What would you call it? I get
**Grinder:** like a dark chocolate that's slightly sweet, but definitely like a, like a pungent dark chocolate.
**Bam Bam:** Yeah. It's unusual that the.
The strong fruit forward on that you get on the cold draw doesn't reveal itself in the, in the smoke here, but that dark chocolates there, I think it's like, it's kind of like a slight cocoa. It's
**Rooster:** like a fruit that's covered in chocolate
**Senator:** and with it, with a cocoa overlay. Okay. So I've been trying to, first of all, the finish on this cigar, I absolutely love.
And I mentioned just the, the scent of the wrapper being super, super unique. And even the finish, there's like a note that I haven't been able to place perfectly. It's everything we're describing, but I know that there's something specific that kind of captures that. I had to look to see what people have described as tasty notes, and it's a lot of what we're talking about.
Like cocoa and some of the, and the berry you got earlier. Bingo. So, for any coffee [00:07:00] lovers, I, if you've ever been to new Orleans, I love a lot of the coffee in new Orleans, like a cafe Dumont it's made with chicory
**Rooster:** root.
**Senator:** That's the note that people call out that even on the Dunbarton site, they say there's a chicory root note here.
And I think that's what that unique flavor is. Like I'm, I'm not kidding. Like the coffee, when you get it at Cafe Du Monde in New Orleans, there's a unique flavor in that coffee. You will not get in anything else that you try and it's because it's brewed with chicory. It's the same kind of note
**Bam Bam:** in the cigar.
That I would think would be a bit earthy, a slight earthiness. Maybe I'm guessing.
**Senator:** No, because chicory
**Bam Bam:** is like, it's
**Senator:** like sweet, but not in like a traditional sweet, not like caramel or almost like a dark brown sugar. Yeah, like it's like sweet, but also a little like bitter, like dark chocolate. It's like a very just unique flavor profile.
**Bam Bam:** [00:08:00] Yeah,
**Grinder:** I absolutely agree. I mean, there's a, um, there was a, a restaurant in Ridgewood that used to have these chicory root, um, what, what's the donuts they make in New Orleans? What are they called? Beignets. Beignets. Where they had chicory root, uh, like filling in the beignets. It was phenomenal. And it reminds me, it reminds me of this.
Cool. Yeah.
**Senator:** I'm just shocked. It's like, that's a note you would look at on like some cigar website and say there's no way that the cigar has chicory root notes in it. But there's something so unique and distinct about this cigar and I think they've nailed it. Like, that's it.
**Rooster:** Wow, cool. This cigar would go so well with a double espresso.
**Senator:** Absolutely.
**Rooster:** Right?
**Gizmo:** Yeah. There's a sweetness in here that you almost want to question, like, is this infused? With sweetness and obviously it's not because you're not getting that unnatural type of sweetness you'd get from a, you know, a sweetened cigar or a java or an acid or something like that. But there is a sweetness about this that is just so inviting and I think [00:09:00] is accessible to so many smokers out there, including to smokers who smoke a lot like we do.
I just. I think it's very unique and interesting and unlike anything we've ever had.
**Bam Bam:** Yeah. There is a slight sweetness for me. It's not forward. I really think that dark chocolate overtone that we discussed, I think that's really forward for me.
**Grinder:** Yeah,
**Bam Bam:** it
**Gizmo:** is
**Bam Bam:** so
**Grinder:** much
**Gizmo:** smoke
**Grinder:** guys. This is the combustions. Yeah, it's really great.
**Gizmo:** So, Sin Compromiso, without compromise in Spanish, of course, is the company mantra and what they say is the guiding ethos for everything they do at Dunbarton Tobacco Trust. They wanted to create a cigar brand to manifest this expression into a tangible reality. They say it was an incredibly challenging task.
As Steve mentions in the interview, as this cigar simply had to be beyond exceptional from the cultivation of distinct and unique tobaccos to the careful working of the prize leaves that they included in this allow only the best torsadores to handcraft [00:10:00] each cigar. Even the box, which contains these Vitolas had to be extra special.
In short, the cigar is the best of everything. Dunbarton has to offer. As they say, it's a truly unique, complex cigar, smooth yet strong. It delivers a captivating and entrancing smoke for the experience palate with the flavors that are constantly swirling and changing from puff to puff. And I think we are I'm very experiencing that.
It's very
**Bam Bam:** accurate.
**Grinder:** I think it's what you, what you just described there at the end for the experienced palette. This is definitely for, not it's for, but I think
**Bam Bam:** not for a novice smoker. Yeah. I mean, I
**Grinder:** think this is something that as you progress, you might want to like, if you, if you're, if you're smoking this and you haven't smoked cigars for a long time.
Try it. You'll love it. And then develop your palate and then come back to it and try it again, you know, because it's it's definitely something that you got to have a lot of those, those tasting notes already tapped into to really, you know, really get the full effect. I think, yeah,
**Gizmo:** is this [00:11:00] a Puro? It is not.
Nicaraguan.
**Rooster:** It's
**Gizmo:** not. So the wrapper is Mexican San Andres Negro. The binder is Ecuadorian Habano. And the filler is independent plantation grown Nicaraguan. This is the sixth Vitola in the line. I'll go through some of the other sizes. The 56 by 7 is the Seleccion number 7. The 44 by 7 is the Rita Magica.
The 52 by six torpedo is the selection number two. The 54 by six Parejo is the selection number five. And finally the 46 by a little over five and a half inches long is the selection Intrepido. And this one is the selection number four, again, 54 ring gauge Robusto extra by five inches long. So they now have six offerings in the line.
And this cigar was launched, boys, at PCA 2024, which is, of course, why we had it at the Dunbarton booth with Steve and then went out and got some for the review [00:12:00] tonight. That was an incredible experience. I have to tell you.
**Bam Bam:** Yeah, it was
**Gizmo:** a real
**Bam Bam:** treat sitting down. It was just so unusual and very interesting.
The conversation he is, I'm a big fan of Steve Sacco after that, after that talk, really depth of knowledge, just off the charts
**Gizmo:** and fun. So boys, before we throw into the interview, I just wanted to kind of wrap up our conversation about PCA 2024 in Las Vegas. We just got back a few weeks ago and we had a great time.
Obviously we, we did an episode live from there. Uh, that we reviewed the EP Carrillo Allegiance and Sidekick on. Uh, we had a great conversation there, but do you guys have any kind of closing thoughts on PCA that we didn't cover in that? Obviously, we've had a few weeks to digest it now. Um, the, the lingering one that comes to me is while we were recording, we had a few listeners walk up.
To see us and we had to tell them to wait, obviously, till we were done recording, but namely Francis lizard, Francis came up and saw us. And, uh, I think he ran up on you, right? You were sitting by yourself. [00:13:00] I
**Senator:** mean, it's funny because, I mean, we had interviewed the CEO of SD Dupont. Then we had recorded an episode there and we had a very kind of tight turnaround to like grab a bite or use the bathroom.
And then we were going to interview Steve Saka. And so we had all kind of split up to do whatever we needed to do. And I had quickly grabbed some lunch. Pagoda went to get a beer. Pagoda went to get his, his 14th beer. And I came back with a plate of like three tacos and I'm just sitting there like trying to scarf these down as quickly as possible so we can get ready for the next interview.
And, um, as I'm sitting there, uh, Lizard Francis comes by and, um, he, he pops over. He's like, are you Senator? And I'm like, you know, like grease running down my hands. I'm like eating these tacos. It was like such a mess. I felt terrible, but, um, such a great guy. And, um, he's been a listener for, for years and, uh, just talked about how much he's enjoyed the pod.
It was just fun to see for him, like some of the listeners we encounter. You know, kind of what he expected and, you know, him meeting us in [00:14:00] person. And I think, um, the rest of the group then, you know, came by and, um, I know Gizmo got the, the usual feedback. I thought you were a lot older. Everybody says that to me, man.
**Gizmo:** Everybody thinks I'm like in my fifties. That's not old. No, no, but older than I am. You know, I always get that feedback always, always. Everybody says that to me. Well, the sport code, uh, you know, the sport code wasn't, that was an add on. It's true. Yeah, it was, it was really nice meeting lizard Francis, obviously, as we mentioned on the episode a couple of weeks ago, it wasn't a consumer show.
So Francis was there on business, just happened to be a big fan of the show. Obviously, if it was a consumer show, you know, we'd been, we would have been able to set up some more of those kinds of chance encounters, but it was just awesome him kind of rolling up on us and it's wild saying, hello, it was amazing.
It's wild. I have
**Senator:** to say the thing I enjoyed talking to Francis, um, he definitely made me feel better about my cigar. procurement habits. And I think everybody in this room because, you know, I think it's easy for us. We obviously, we procure a [00:15:00] lot of different cigars and we all have, you know, great collections.
We're very lucky to have, uh, but talking to Francis, I mean, he was talking about how he's got like 3, Cuban cigars. And I was sitting there, I was like, All right. I don't feel so bad. Correct. And he only collected them in the last, I think, few years, two years, three years. We're not the only degenerates in the group.
So I just like when I meet people like this, I mean, even, you know, we talked about the, um, the listener meetup that we had at, at resorts world and talking to some of those guys. And I can't believe I'm sitting there and they're telling me like, Oh yeah. I mean, I, I've probably got like two, 3, 000 Cuban cigars and they only started smoking Cuban cigars during the pandemic.
And I'm like, that's insanity. I mean, I guess that's honestly similar to Lizard Gizmo over here, but you know, for some of us, it's like, I just, I can't even fathom like, you know, Roosters, you've been smoking Cubans a while. I've been smoking Cubans. 1947. He's been smoking cigars. [00:16:00] 1947. Seven, well, before the pandemic, it
**Gizmo:** was around the first pandemic.
Correct. World war one, the
**Senator:** Spanish flu, Spanish flu straight out of Cuba. So I just felt, I, I, it was just remarkable to see how many other people there are just like us that have just dove headfirst into this at such a crazy level. So, uh, it was really fun. Just tagging cigars with them.
**Bam Bam:** Yeah, honestly, it was a while to see, just meet people that identify with what we're doing outside of our group.
It felt like an outer body experience. I was just taking it all in. It was really unique and a special experience when we were with our listeners, of course. Where is it
**Rooster:** from?
**Bam Bam:** San Francisco. San Francisco. Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah.
**Senator:** Not the easiest place to smoke, but there are, there are cigar lounges, but there's one,
**Bam Bam:** but not the easiest place.
The show itself though, is for me, very informative. You know, I've never been to a cigar convention [00:17:00] ever. And I, I was surprised the level of professionalism, the, the beautiful, you know, we've talked about this, um, you know, the beautiful setups and the displays, just how serious. These vendors take this business took me aback a little bit, honestly,
**Grinder:** I think that's a, uh, an interesting point to see the brands showcase the side of themselves to like where typically the side we see as end consumers is more marketing.
These were, these were, you know, businessmen conducting business, acting as professional as they could, being spot on for every kind of question that people would have. Like, we mentioned this on one of the pods we recorded there. Just to see how much hustle was going on, just to take orders and make orders, it was pretty cool to see.
Uh, and, and to be a part of that, and to feel like we, you know, are part of that world in some way. However, whatever gradation that is, it, it felt really [00:18:00] cool. Yeah.
**Senator:** I also just love the appreciation of tobacco in general. Agreed. Like, you know, the listener will hear in our interview with Steve Saka, you know, us talking about Cuban tobacco and Cuban cigars.
Which was a huge
**Gizmo:** surprise.
**Senator:** Huge. I don't think, we certainly didn't go into the interview expecting to spend any time talking about Cuban cigars and Cuban tobacco. That was probably the most intriguing part of the conversation, I think. In many ways. Honestly, yeah. And just like his, his openness about it and what's unique and distinct.
And I was just really encouraged hearing that and. To see other people at PCA. I mean, we had another listener come up who was smoking, I think a fundy. And I was just sitting there like, this is wild.
**Gizmo:** That PCA, I
**Bam Bam:** just
**Pagoda:** picked
**Bam Bam:** this up
**Gizmo:** on the show at a hundred dollars. I mean,
**Senator:** Gizmo was talking about before we were going, how he was bringing X number of Cuban cigars.
I'm like, he's going to get us kicked out of this thing. Like this is about new world tobacco. And so
**Grinder:** I was, I was reprimanded and told to take off my bed. Correct. [00:19:00] Yes, by me, which
**Senator:** I did, it's all for the brand, baby. That was a huge surprise. And just really encouraging how, uh, how open people were. And even within the new world space, how honest folks were about what other brands do well.
It's like in other categories of like consumer products, you would never hear someone from Pepsi talking about how Coke makes a great product. That's never going to happen. But the fact that like, even during the soccer interview, Like he talks about it's pretty damn hard to be the consistency of Patron.
Like they, they do it better than just about anybody. Like just the willingness to acknowledge what each of these different brands brings to the table and what's unique and special about them. I just love that. Like honesty and vulnerability of being able to say, like, we all don't get every single thing.
Right. And some of us do certain things better than others. And how Open that conversation was I
**Bam Bam:** was really impressed it felt like he was recording with us for a very long time because he went [00:20:00] into the fruit the floral notes of All of the Cuba Cuban catalog and that to me rang true and it really like it's like you said it was a moment Of honesty on his part and he said we can never match that that I found was revealing
**Grinder:** One of the things that I took, um, a lot of heart to was when he was talking about his experience as a cigar smoker, how he started in this place and then he journeyed, you know, how, how a lot, like a lot of cigar smokers, you, you, you work your way up to intensity and then you sit there and then you find your way back, you know, and you, and you kind of go up and down the line.
And I, and when I was doing, you know, he was saying that I'm like, yeah, I mean, that's, That's basically where I'm at right now. Like, this is, like, I worked my way up. I was in Nicaraguan Puros, that was it. And then I kind of dialed it back and found a different sweet spot. And like, to hear him talk about that and how it's like, it's a journey, this whole, this hobby of ours, this passion, it's a journey.
**Bam Bam:** But getting back to the show, it felt great being with us lizards, [00:21:00] moving through that show as a unit. It felt like Lizard Mafia. We were on point. We went from booth to booth and we got noticed and it was it was something unique That's something I've never ever experienced either. It was really really special.
Who dat? Who dat? Yeah, exactly,
**Gizmo:** right We talked to you know, but you know on the on the Episode we recorded live there, the warm reception that we received. It was our first show. We were meeting a lot of these folks in person for the first time and the amount of stuff we got done at the show. And then the amount of stuff we have set up for the next few months and the rest of this year with manufacturers and, and, and folks, we're going to have conversations with, bring a lot of content to the listeners.
I think it was a very, very productive, good experience for us. And, and really more importantly, our listeners, I think we're going to bring a lot of good content to the listeners this year. Because of what we were able to accomplish at, uh, PCA 2024 stay tuned. And speaking of who dat and you mentioned new Orleans coffee, the next show is going to be in new Orleans, 2025.
And I hear [00:22:00] 2026 is also going to be in new Orleans the next two years. I can't
**Bam Bam:** wait for the private Senator tour. Oh, I love neurons. Okay. I cannot wait for that tour. Yeah. It's
**Senator:** going to be a lot of fun going down. I mean, I'm sorry. This is a place. No container laws. I mean, it's just like, I think Vegas, they bill is like America's playground.
Like, New Orleans is truly America's playground. Are you
**Bam Bam:** trying to say that this is a true place for Bam Bam to experience? This
**Senator:** is going to be game changing
**Bam Bam:** for you, Bam Bam. Oh yeah. Game changing.
**Senator:** That may never come home. Or dangerous. That too. Luckily, there are not many laws in New Orleans, so you don't, you don't have to worry about
**Bam Bam:** a true Bam Bam environment.
**Senator:** It is. I had my bachelor party before I got married. There we go. Loved it.
**Grinder:** This, this cigar is really, really delicious. It's amazing.
**Gizmo:** It's amazing. So boys, Steve Saka for the uninitiated, which I don't think there's many listeners out there who are uninitiated, uh, uninitiated about Steve, but let me just run through his history in the business.
Before we go to the first part of our interview. So he was the longtime editor in chief of [00:23:00] Cigar Nexus as a member of the media. He then moved to the ad as advisor to the president of JR cigars. He then became the president and then finally the chief executive of Drew estate for an eight year run with them, obviously very famously launching Liga Privada and Herrera Esteli.
He left them in 2013 and in 2015. He founded and is the master blender now going on almost 10 years of Dunbarton tobacco and trust.
**Bam Bam:** Yeah.
**Gizmo:** So we are going to throw now to the first part of our interview with Steve Saka, and we'll be back with you in the second third. Okay. So we are at PCA 2024 sitting in the Dunbarton tobacco and trust booth.
With its founder and CEO, Steve
**Steve Saka:** Sacco. Wow. I need a pay raise. CEO. And
**Gizmo:** master blender, of course. And, uh, very kindly, he gave us all [00:24:00] Sin Compromisos. Yeah, it's the number four. The new
**Steve Saka:** Robusto size.
**Gizmo:** It's really, really good. I'd be the only
**Steve Saka:** dumb enough person to launch a cigar brand in 2018 and not put a Robusto in it.
Yeah. Took me five years to wake up. Actually, the truth is, so when we were launching Sin Compromiso, It was supposed to have a Robusto, but I was never happy with the way the Robusto tasted. So, I was kind of like, when we launched, I was like, okay, I'll just leave the Robusto out. And then I'll fix it next year.
And well, it took me five years to get around to it.
**Gizmo:** So tell us about the blend of this cigar. What, what makes this,
**Steve Saka:** uh, Sin Compromiso is a combination. It's a San Andreas, uh, Mexican rapper, but it's a little different than most. Um, I call it Cotivo Tonto, well actually they call it Cotivo Tonto. Cotivo Tonto basically means foolish cultivation.
Um, I had, uh, I had read this article about these Japanese musk melons, these royal melons and what they do. So a typical musk melon [00:25:00] plant will produce 24 fruit, 22 to 24 fruit, but the Japanese being Japanese, they do this thing where they would grow this vine and they would strip off all but like three of the fruit and In the end, they would then look at the three fruit that began to develop on the vine, and they would then basically throw two of the fruit away.
And the entire vein, the entire root structure and the stock would all be dedicated to just this one melon. So you basically have a, basically the infrastructure dedicated to just supplying this one melon and this one, and they do other Japanese stuff, rub it, sing to it, God knows what else, but basically.
The concept was that this melon would end up being sweeter and more flavorful and richer. And they would end up, these melons were originally produced only for the, uh, the emperors in Japan. And you can buy these melons. Now [00:26:00] this one single melon costs like 200 to 300 for a single piece of fruit. And I found that really interesting.
If you think about it from a From a cultivation point of view, this is no different than what the weed guys do, where you prune off all of the lower buds to try to focus all the energy of the plant into certain parts of the plant. And I wanted to do this with, uh, with tobacco. So I decided to do a San Andreas Negro.
So what we do is we take, as we're growing the plant. We strip off all of the lower leaves just as they begin to, to leaf out and we throw them away in the field and we only grow the top half of the plant. And so, and when you grow only the top half of the plant, you're not getting half the tobacco.
You're actually only getting a third of the tobacco because of the weight, because the lower half of the plant is two thirds of the weight. You have to understand when it comes to farmers, farmers sell tobacco based on the weight of the crop. [00:27:00] So this thing of where you're going to produce less weight is never a good thing for them.
So it's a very special commission crop that I do with the concept that I was hoping that these leaves that had the whole root structure and the stock to support less leaves, we're going to give you a sweeter, more interesting tobacco. I didn't know whether it was bullshit or not bullshit, but when we had done, I buy San Andreas Negro from the same farmer, traditionally cultivated.
And when we were making the samples, I could like literally a hundred times out of a hundred tell which ones had the cultivo tanto rapper on it versus the traditionally cultivated rapper. And once I could do that, I was kind of sold on the concept. And that's what we use on all the sin compromises is the call Tivo Tonto.
And so it's just, it's just a little sweeter, a little richer. And the other thing that we do on all the cultiva Tonto rapper [00:28:00] is so in Mexico, when they're doing the curing in the barns, it always pushes into their rainy season. So traditionally Mexican tobaccos, when they were cured in the barns, they would have to light little charcoal fires.
Not to fire cure heat, track the tobacco, the barn, but to wick out the excess moisture that you had during the curing process. Now they stopped doing this about 30 odd years ago and they switched to propane burners because propane burners are much more controllable. Okay. It's much easier versus doing natural charcoal.
But the thing is the charcoal that they used to use traditionally was from a very particular tree. that just grew there in the valley and had a very distinct kind of smokiness to it. So with a, with a syncom for me. So, um, I know you guys have already lit yours, but if you take like a cold draw on it, you'll actually get a taste of that slight smokiness in [00:29:00] the wrapper because I have them doing that traditional charcoal pit with the traditional wood to help maintain the humidity in, in the barn while they're doing the curing process.
So that's one of the things that separates Syncom for me. So from the myriad of San Andreas, Negro products, an intense process,
**Bam Bam:** honestly, I haven't heard anything similar. Yeah. And a lot of the markers that we're, look,
**Steve Saka:** we're a small company. We, you know, look, everybody makes cigars. They're all Brown and round.
We're all rolling weeds into a tube that you light on fire. So, you know, one of the things that we can do as a small company is. Try to do something that's a little unique, a little different, a little special. So now whether the consumer thinks it's worth the value or not, that's up to them.
**Bam Bam:** Sure.
**Steve Saka:** Right.
And look, and it's not a free ride on the, on the, on the pony. I mean, consumers pay a little more for it. You know, uh, sin compromisos, they range from like 16 to 20. So you as a [00:30:00] consumer have to decide, do I think there's value in it? Or do I not think there's value in it? I think there is. So that's the way I choose to make it.
But ultimately the consumer is going to determine whether they see the value in it.
**Gizmo:** There's a lingering sweetness that is so unique to this cigar.
**Steve Saka:** It's really quite good.
**Gizmo:** That I don't think I've ever tasted in any other cigar we've smoked. It's, it's pretty incredible actually. Is that from that process?
**Steve Saka:** Yes. Cause it's the exact same seed variety. There, there's nothing unique in the seed and there's certainly nothing unique in the stoil. It's the process. It's the process.
**Bam Bam:** And that's how you're differentiating yourself.
**Steve Saka:** I mean, but that's so true with so many things. Well, I mean, look, we're, we're all like the watch he's wearing.
**Bam Bam:** And many other elite manufacturers,
**Steve Saka:** they differentiate themselves through process. Right. I mean, there's tons of cigars with San Andreas Negro on them that are very, very good cigars. So why would a consumer or a smoker choose to smoke a over B? So you're trying to provide something. Look, most of our customers tend to be more discerning.
[00:31:00] Um, our best, I always say our best customers are the ones that are the most experienced, the customers that have smoked not hundreds of cigars, but thousands of cigars. So, cause I remember when I started smoking cigars, I had a new best cigar ever, like every Thursday. You know what I mean? Because you're learning, you're growing.
Uh, it took me probably a good 10 years to develop my own palate as to what I liked and what I didn't like. And so one of the things for us is we've always made cigars with the intent that they're meant for the consumer. They can tell the difference. If you, if you, if you can't tell the difference, Don't spend your money.
There's no reason to, you know what I mean? They, I, I can't, cause I tell you it's better is one thing, but that's not enough. You have to actually experience there. You go, okay. You know what? That makes a difference. When I smoke a Mika, eat a tricky truck, uh, I can tell the difference between this broad leaf cigar versus that bright white cigar.
[00:32:00] When I smoke a sober Mesa brulee. It's not like there's not a million Kinetic Shade mild cigars in the marketplace. The question is, if you as a consumer, can you see the value in it? Then that's what you're hoping to achieve. And I
**Gizmo:** think the last thing, you know, is someone reaching for that cigar over and over, is the fact that I know when I pick up a cigar that has entered my rotation, that every time I smoke it, It's going to give me a very, very consistent experience.
And that's crucial. Look,
**Steve Saka:** consistency is one of the things that sadly is overlooked in most cases. Cause I mean, the thing is, look, you make these blends and look as a manufacturer, you want to get thousands of people to try it, but in the end, you don't need thousands of people to love it. What you need is you need to make a cigar that sings to somebody, right?
So that if one out of a hundred people go, Oh my God, that's really incredible. I really love that. And they add it to the rotation and it [00:33:00] becomes consistent for them. That's a home run hit. And I think that's one of the things that like, when you get cigars from some companies, They're always trying to make in the middle.
They're trying to appeal to the widest consumer base. But the problem is when you do that, you're making a cigar that everybody likes, but you're ultimately not making a cigar that somebody loves. What you want to do is you want to try to create a cigar that somebody loves that it becomes part of their rotation.
Something they feel the need to have. And that's far more important because there's plenty of really good, decent cigars that are in the market. They draw well, they burn well, they taste fine. Is it a reason for you to take your hard earned dollars and spend your money on them? I mean, that's the part that makes it different.
So I've always said that. When you make a cigar that everybody likes, you ultimately made a cigar that nobody loves. And what you really need is you need someone to love something. And look, they're not going to love everything. It's not [00:34:00] possible. I mean, we all have very diverse things in what we like and what we don't like in a cigar.
Now, what we try to do as a company, Um, you know, we don't, we make a very wide portfolio. We make, you know, mild shade in the brulees. We make really potent, broad leaf, spicy cigars. If you carry the tricky traco. We make a medium body like the Sin Compromisos that you're smoking now. We try to make the very best in a given genre, in a particular style of expression.
With the hope of attracting that customer. They go, wow, that's a really great cigar. I really love that. I want them to be my great insights, my, my love, but I don't expect the guy that loves sober Mesa Brulee Toros to also be as big a fan. Of my me, K Rita, tricky truck, a six, four, eight. Those are two very different cigars with two very different smoking experiences for the most part made for a different consumer.
Now there's [00:35:00] some consumers like me that smoke across the spectrum. I smoke a wide variety of sizes. I smoke a wide variety of strengths, wide variety of different flavor profiles, but that's not most customers. Most customers have a certain style of cigar that they like. They stay in that alley. They stay kind of in their lane.
Yeah. So the idea is to try to make something that is really going to eventually sing to each individual so that they can find something that best suits their palate and the way they like to enjoy their smoking experience.
**Gizmo:** And I think to your point, I mean, the way that we talk about and think about cigars, and I'm thinking about this right now with this one is where would I slot this in my rotation?
Is this a cigar I'm going to have? With a cup of coffee in the morning. Is it an after lunch cigar or after a big steak dinner? Like the meat lovers. Here's the funny
**Steve Saka:** part. That's going to vary as you as a consumer, right? Some consumers, they're going to think that the red meat lovers is not their perfect after dinner cigar.
They're going to think that real mild, [00:36:00] soft expression is the type of way they like to end after a heavy meal. So that's, that's the thing that you always need to think about is we're all different. Oysters. I don't get oysters. They're disgusting. We are big guys. Steve, we are big
**Gizmo:** oyster guys.
**Steve Saka:** And guess what?
Millions, if not millions of people love oysters. I don't get it. But does that make me the arbiter of good taste that I think oysters are disgusting? No, what it makes me is the arbiter of my taste. I'm not an oyster guy. Doesn't make oysters bad. It just means that oysters aren't for me. Now you deep fry them.
You put them in a po boy, you cover them remoulade. I'm there every day of the week. You know, if you, if you char broil them like Drago's does in New Orleans, I'm there for the char broiled oysters. But, but raw oysters. Nah, I don't get it. All
**Gizmo:** right, we'll go back to our interview with Steve Saka in a few moments.
But first, [00:37:00] boys, what are you thinking about the Seleccion No. 4 from Dunbarton in the Sin Compromiso line?
**Bam Bam:** It previewed wonderfully at the show, and it's, it's, it's exquisite. I
**Gizmo:** think this is an excellent
**Bam Bam:** cigar. It's an excellent
**Rooster:** cigar. It's so well rolled.
**Bam Bam:** Yeah.
**Senator:** I mean, look at the construction. Beautiful ash on it, yeah.
Great ash, burning, uh, nice razor sharp burn. I'm just glad that we're doing this here. outside of the craziness at PCA because I, I know I enjoyed this cigar when we smoked it with Steve, but this is even better having this here where I can like fully focus on the cigar and appreciate every note I'm getting.
Um, it, it's excellent. Honestly, like, I think all of us are Padrone fans and so like there are some Padrone esque notes in it that like cocoa and coffee and things like that you get there's like a little bit of earth but I think you know Rooster was we were chatting a little bit about this the the fruit and sweeter notes that you get Um, you [00:38:00] don't necessarily get in all Padrones, and I think that that adds another layer of complexity to this cigar that's unique and just
**Bam Bam:** super enjoyable.
Totally agreed. Like I, for me, get that fruit on the finish, and for me it's a nice, long, smooth, elegant finish. On the front I'm getting deep cocoa and that dark chocolate's continuing, but on the finish I'm getting fruit. which is really unusual.
**Senator:** I think that's spot on. And the funny thing is like, because of that, the finish is very clean.
Like as much flavor as this cigar is putting out, like you have a really bold Nicaraguan cigar or Nicaraguan heavy cigar, if it's a blend and like the finish, like just, just what's the taste in your mouth is such a blast of like deep, intense flavor. Yeah. that you'll wake up the next morning and you'll remember exactly what you smoke because it will still be there.
But with this cigar, because it finishes with the fruit notes Ben's talking about, it finishes cleaner, like a medium or milder cigar or a Cuban. Which I, I really like.
**Rooster:** Yeah, I think the [00:39:00] San Andres wrapper has a lot to do with the, with the sweetness of the cigar. Okay.
**Bam Bam:** You know, honestly, like when, at the show, he poured us little cups of bourbon.
I think bourbon's a fantastic pairing with this, but the way this cigar finishes, as you mentioned, Senator, I barely took a sip when I was there. I can smoke this all the way through without a sip of booze at all. Well, we're not going to do that, bam. We're going to have some
**Gizmo:** booze.
**Bam Bam:** And
**Senator:** Steve would have it no other
**Bam Bam:** way.
I love that guy. He has bottles at his feet, right? Within reach. Are you a sweet? Are
**Grinder:** you, or do you want to get knocked off your feet or do you want something to grow hair on your chest?
**Senator:** Okay. Actually for the listener, we should really paint the picture. Obviously we were there, but, um, you know, what's kind of cool about Steve Obviously all the, the brands have their booths and a lot of them, a lot of these guys are really kind of moving around and, um, having conversations with a bunch of people and Steve just kind of sits [00:40:00] at this one chair,
**Bam Bam:** he's parked in his chair, dude, he's
**Senator:** parked.
It's like this nice, comfortable leather chair. He's got his bottles of bourbon right next to him. He's got his cigars that he wants to smoke and you know, you want to chat with him, you come and have a seat and he's happy to have that conversation, but. He's not getting up to go find people. He's not moving.
**Gizmo:** Also. He told us that his staff does not allow him to sell because he keeps messing up the orders. He's not allowed to, he's not allowed to, he's only allowed to sit there and talk to the retailers. He's not allowed to place orders. He's got a good staff. He's got a great staff. I like that. So
**Bam Bam:** that booth was hustling and bustling, and it was a small footprint, smaller than the other booths, but the amount of activity around his booth, I think just goes to the quality of the product that he's putting out.
Definitely a lot of hype around it. Oh, absolutely.
**Rooster:** Does he make other stuff other than the sin compromise? A lot. He makes a lot of stuff.
**Gizmo:** Yeah, we did the Moestra to Saka. There's like eight or 10 lines that the, that they do. And certainly we're going to do, I'm sure a bunch of them on the podcast.
**Bam Bam:** And that box of unusual Lanceros with the different rappers and [00:41:00] bands really.
Yeah, we've got to check that out. The
**Gizmo:** GFY Lancero. Go fuck yourself Lancero. Okay. Says it all about Steve. That's our
**Grinder:** brand. It was, it was fun meeting him because I didn't realize how much of a fan I was of all of his work Until I met him and I was looking at like I'm thinking like oh he made that and that and that I'm like fuck I love all this shit like everything he's ever made.
I've really enjoyed and this cigar I wanted to say it earlier. When, when you, when I take a draw, I get this like, tingly, sharp, wonderful flavor in the, on my tongue, but as I retrohale, I get hit with the cocoa, and the chocolate, and the warmth, and it's just like, the combination of those two things in one single draw.
That's complexity to me. Agreed. That is like, that's something that you can't re it's really hard to replicate.
**Gizmo:** So boys, let's talk about our pairing tonight in line with Steve serving us bourbon at the booth at PCA. We are [00:42:00] back to Weller with the antique one Oh seven for connoisseurs out there. This is the red bottle.
We S we did the special reserve, which is the green bottle. This is the more expensive entry in the line. And, uh, I think it's an excellent entry. Excellent bourbon with this cigar tonight.
**Bam Bam:** You've got to take that glass to your nose because it is so vanilla forward on the aroma. It's incredible. Lends itself beautifully to the cigar, I think.
**Gizmo:** I think it's a wonderful pairing with the cigar. You're
**Bam Bam:** getting vanilla, no? Oh yeah. It's very, it's like
**Gizmo:** a little, I want to say syrupy on the nose a little bit. Caramel, I guess. Yeah, caramel is the right word. Yeah.
**Grinder:** I get toffee.
**Gizmo:** Um,
**Rooster:** So
**Senator:** do we know how much this bottle is? Uh, we do. So at total wine by us, it is 57 a bottle.
Okay. Which is a very reasonable price point. It is.
**Gizmo:** Now, obviously, as we talked about on other bourbon episodes, I think the Weller episode, You know, a lot of these, these bourbons are hard to get. So the scarcity [00:43:00] drives a high secondary, you know, market price. So I think that's what a lot of people pay, but 57, I think is very reasonable.
The
**Senator:** funny thing I read is when this came out, the retail price was around 30 bucks. And a lot of the, uh, retailers were charging above that because the, the demand was so high and they were charging in the 50 range. And then they actually bumped up the retail price to 50. And so, um, it's now pretty much anywhere you can find it, which is not easy to, but when you can, it's in that 50 something dollar.
**Bam Bam:** Yeah. Grinder, I think you're spot on with the toffee for me on the finish. So when I take this initially in the front, the aroma, of course, for me, very heavy vanilla, but on the finish, it's a beautiful, almost salty toffee. Ah, it's just, that's pretty special bourbon.
**Senator:** Well, it's good we're doing this too, because we did the special reserve on another episode.
We scored super high, and um, I think everybody that knows Weller knows the, the tie in to Pappy and, and how, um, Pappy played a [00:44:00] huge role in, in what Weller has done. And the funny thing is what they call poor man's Pappy. If you were to try to concoct the Pappy recipe for way less than you're paying for a bottle of Pappy, they say it's certain percentages, I don't know the percentages, of the Weller special reserve.
This antique one Oh seven and the Weller 12 year. So we're kind of making our way through all of these. Can we mix all the bottles together and get a, I mean, that's basically what they do, but we'll have to, we'll have to, we'll need a lizard that really knows. We'll get Pagoda in here. He'll be measuring
**Bam Bam:** how much we'll end up on
**Gizmo:** a floor.
That was the question we're all Ubering that night. All right, boys, let's go back to our conversation with Steve Saka, the founder and master blender. I've done Barton tobacco and trust.
**Senator:** I think the thing that separates good cigars from great cigars, like you're saying is complexity and a lot of our listeners, I think that have been on this [00:45:00] journey with us, we're trying to find for them brands and particular cigars that deliver a complex experience. Even if that's a mild cigar that maybe someone likes.
that it has enough complexity to it that it's interesting enough for someone like me or some of these guys who doesn't love a mild cigar but with enough complexity can enjoy it and I think with this cigar you talking about the process that goes into this whether it's the the blending decisions that are made that deliver that complexity That's what all of us are chasing for in some way, shape or form.
And it's really great to hear what you're doing to deliver that.
**Pagoda:** Agreed. Fully agreed. Complexity and consistency, right? Because
**Steve Saka:** like, Consistency is something that regretfully is overlooked because the thing is we all have this experience where we smoke a brand and we absolutely love it. And then like a year later, it doesn't taste anything like the original.
Yes, exactly. Right. And I mean, look, you, you get a hundred people to try a cigar and three of them fall in love with it. And then they become box buyers on it. They know [00:46:00] when it changes almost instantaneously because they smoked so much of that one cigar. And that's one of the challenges where the big companies.
They have a huge advantage. They have the deeper inventory levels. They have the production capacity. They're better capable of making consistent cigars in the small manufacturing inventory, raw products, right? And that's the reason why most brands, when they're launched in the marketplace, they literally last two to three years.
They come and they go very, very quickly. Um, and it's one of the things that for me is really important. I mean, sober mason was the first thing we launched nine years ago. We sell more sober masons today, nine years later than we sold starting nine years ago when it was the hot new thing, you got to have it.
You know what I mean? And the only way that that's possible is if the blend is consistent. Now, when I say the blend being consistent, One of the biggest fallacies that so many people make is they think that [00:47:00] that means that it needs to be the exact proportions of a particular tobacco or even the same tobaccos.
The thing is tobacco is inherently always changing. It doesn't change crop year from crop year. It's sometimes different from bale to bale within a crop year. So the way that you actually make a consistent cigar is by constantly micro tweaking the blends. on a continual ongoing basis because you as a consumer, yeah, you want to hear that we use this and it's that blah, blah, blah.
But in the end, what you really want is you really want the same smoking experience every time you choose a cigar. That's why a cigar like Padron is so popular. OK, because what they have done is they have basically taken Many years of tobacco, and they're basically constantly adjusting the blend in a way using the same tobaccos, but adjusting it so that when the consumer buys that cigar out of the box, they know what they're buying.
They know what they get. They know what the [00:48:00] experience is going to be. So you can't treat cigars as a Betty Crocker baking recipe because if you do that, They will not deliver the same experience. Your job is, as a blender, and as running a factory, is to constantly micro adjust the tweaks. Just the same way, sometimes the tomatoes are a little sweeter, sometimes they're a little more acidic.
Do I need to add a little more sugar to my sauce? Do I need to add a little more salt to my sauce? Because in the end, you love grandma's sauce the way grandma's sauce is. I
**Bam Bam:** don't think it's ever been explained to us that way, where the micro tweaking is such a big part of this. I've never heard that from any other manufacturer.
So that's really, really intriguing. I got to say, you
**Steve Saka:** also have to understand that probably most of the guys that you talk to, they're weenies. They weren't actually the people that buy tobacco and make cigars. Hey,
**Pagoda:** Mr. Saka. We're pretty connected.
**Senator:** No, but I think to Steve's point, you know, you think about, we review tons of new [00:49:00] world brands as well as Cuban cigars. And I think in Cuban cigars, what you're saying is Does not happen very much. You know, we talk about the inconsistency. We have a Cuban cigars,
**Steve Saka:** look, they have a different problem. They have a very limited amount of tobacco.
And they have a tremendous amount of pressure to produce so many units. And what ends up in the box ends up in the box. I mean, just look where we are with the Cuban production numbers now. Uh, let's skip the crazy cigar boom years. They've been pretty much consistently making 75. 5 million to 85 million units a year for a very, very long time.
But they found themselves in a position now, what I think last year's production was 30, 38 million, 40 million units. They don't have a choice. And I know that. The, like the Cuban, I don't know how far off the weeds we want to go here, but like you're in our week, the Cuban price increase of last year that they blamed on the Asian markets to kind of bring the [00:50:00] price where it is.
Yeah. That was the thing that they said out loud. But if you really start to think about it, the real problem was. We used to be able to make 80 million. We can now only make 40 million. How are we going to make the same amount of money when we have half as much available stock to sell? Well, the answer is very simple.
We're going to make the price X because if we don't make the price X we're fucked. Yeah. Cause that's the reason why, right. That's the reason why they did what they did is entirely an economic decision. It has absolutely nothing to do with the product.
**Gizmo:** And it's also, you know, to your point, Even now, they just announced last week that the expected, uh, yield of tobacco, they just halved it.
It, they just cut it in half last week of what's coming out now. Plus there's a massive brain drain of people who are actually willing and able for a dollar a day to go roll a hundred cigars. I mean, it's changed a lot.
**Steve Saka:** So most people on my side, let's just call it new world to make it simple. They're typically the anti Habanos people.
I'm actually not that [00:51:00] dude. Um, I smoke it. I have probably, I haven't smoked a lot of Cuban cigars, but I probably smoked 000 Cuban cigars. Oh, that's all? Over the years. Uh, I had like a seven year stretch where I was pretty much a heavy Habanos consumer. Okay, so we need to know what your, your Habanos, uh, choices are.
I'm boring when it comes to Habanos. I'm, uh, I'm like, Still, we just punch punches and Ramona, you're selected. You're talking about Ramona alone, especially come on, I guess. D four. Yeah. D four is, you know, these are stellar. Part of this unvarnished eight, nine, eight, nine. Eight. Here we go. Yeah. I mean, I, there was a point in my life where I know who knew where I chased all of the, yeah, no, dude, that's crazy.
**Pagoda:** But anyways, uh,
**Steve Saka:** I
**Pagoda:** feel like
**Bam Bam:** we've been with him for years. Yeah. All right. I'm coming over your place with a six
**Pagoda:** pack. We're
**Steve Saka:** going to chat. All right. But I mean, it looked. And I still smoke Hibana's. The thing for me, my palates kind of changed over the years. So back in like the late eighties, early nineties.[00:52:00]
were stronger compared to most of the Dominican cigars. I was getting, there were very few non Cuban cigars that were like delivering for me. Um, there used to be Rolando Reyes, senior used to make Cuba, Aliados, no longer the same cigar, but that satisfied me. Ernesto Perez, Correa, when he made his Rico Habanos and those old style, the glory Cubanas, they satisfied me.
But a lot of my consumption was Habanos when we got to about 1998, 1999, the Nicaraguan cigars, the tobaccos, they actually really jumped ahead for me strength wise and palate wise. So for me, Other than some of the limited regional releases, um, I look at most Habano cigars as mild to mild to medium, right?
We agree. I mean, that's kind of where they are. Even their Maduro's don't even touch full. Right. And so, so they're [00:53:00] kind of relegated from my own smoking to being that. The one thing that Cuban cigars have that I don't think any of us have been able to recreate in any way is that kind of, um, Habanos have this very unique, sweet, slight floral nature to them.
So, I mean, and that floral characteristic is something that we haven't been able to duplicate. So no matter how many different ways we talk about Cuban ask or this or that, it's never quite there, to be honest with you. Um, it just doesn't work, but just guess what? They can't. They can't make a Meekerita black.
Yeah. They have no tobaccos that they have available to them that can simulate that kind of smoking experience. So, I don't look at Cuban cigars as being lesser or greater. I look at them as being different. Now, separate of we can get into the construction issues which have always When I was a heavy Habanos [00:54:00] consumer, uh, 50 percent of the cigars, I just accepted the fact that the construction was not going to be, we, we kicked the living shit out of them when it comes to that.
Right. Absolutely. But we cannot duplicate that flavor profile. So when a customer or a consumer says to me, Habanos, Habanos, Habanos. if they're actually a real smoker and they've experienced the portfolios across a variety and they still go back to Habanos, I can appreciate that. I can understand why, because it is a very unique flavor.
It is a very unique aroma that you get out of a Cuban cigar that you can't duplicate another cigar, but I don't consider it better or worse. I consider it to be its own entity. And you have to understand too, for a lot of the international consumers, 30 odd years ago, um, non Cuban cigars in the marketplace were only about 2%.
And the reason why it has a lot to do with how cigars are distributed worldwide. [00:55:00] You don't have individual retailers that buy cigars. What you have is you have fixed distribution in all of these individual countries or territories. So in order for a distributor to bring in a cigar, they need to bring in a lot of it because we're basically buying a commitment for a one year basis.
So for them, Habanus was their premium. And then the only thing they bought from us, not in Cuba, was all of our shit product. They wanted the stuff that was literally 2 cigars. So here you are, you're in wherever, Germany. And your only comparative standard is their premium Habanos and our 2 crappy bundle cigar.
Well, of course you as a consumer go, well, all these Nicaraguan cigars suck, you know what I mean? Because you're getting the worst of the worst. Now things have dramatically changed over the last 10, 15 years. Um, non Cuban cigars currently, they're pretty much 40 percent of the international market. And they're probably going to get up to be about 70 percent of the international [00:56:00] market pretty soon.
But now these international consumers are now getting to do a much more Apple app comparison. It's not a direct translation to Cuban, but at least now they're getting our best new world cigars versus the best Habano cigars. So now it becomes a question of. What flavor do you like? What strength level you like?
There's no longer this tremendous quality difference that originally was.
**Gizmo:** And you're also benefiting from the price, right? The fact that the Habano's price has skyrocketed to a point that in Hong Kong, a D four might be 50, even
**Steve Saka:** more than the price. I think because of the lack of inventory. And then their shift to the Asian market.
You now basically have retailers around the rest of the world who were always like the champions of Bonos are now put in a position where they basically have to motherfuck it because they can't get it to sell. And look, you're a retailer. Your job is to sell cigars. So you didn't talk about how great the product is that you no longer have available to your consumers to sell.
And then [00:57:00] the other thing too. Again, part of also what makes a big difference is the whole social media and how interconnected we've become as a world, because now what you see is you see these younger consumers that are in Italy and in Germany and in Africa and Australia. They read about all of the interesting products that we have available to the American consumer and they're intrigued by them where Habanos, what do you have last new brands were in 1998, San Cristobal and, uh, what was
**Gizmo:** the, uh, Quabba
**Steve Saka:** Quabba was late nineties.
No, uh, Vegas Robana, right. And then what did you have next? You had the line extension on Cohiba. What was that? 2010, 2011, but he key. That's all you've got new. The only other thing that you've got new is the regional or the special limited releases, which are priced at a point that if you're not like a super special whale customer, you never even get to sniff that stuff.
So they do nothing new and exciting for the smoker to really get [00:58:00] into where we were like, we make something new every Tuesday. Right? So there's so much stuff. There's so many interesting, wide variety of blends. And because of the way the internet works, they get to read about all these things. So they're interested in trying all of these different cigars.
**Bam Bam:** for you. So the other day we asked ourselves a question about what the largest emerging market is for the New World product in Europe or Asia. It's Asia. Is it Asia? Yeah, the Asians are crazy right now. For the New World cigars? Every place is crazy.
**Steve Saka:** Look, even a podunky crappy company like us that nobody's ever heard of, Dunbarton Tobacco Trust, I'm doing a half a million dollars in Brazil alone.
Oh, that's fantastic. In Brazil! Wow.
**Gizmo:** That's amazing. I mean, it's
**Steve Saka:** insanity right now. It's really quite crazy. Yeah. I mean What do you think is driving that? I think it's a combination of It's a few different things. Obviously If a bonus is delivering so much less, there's a void. [00:59:00] Number one. Number two, it is the fact that the world has become so much flatter in the sake of, in the way of communication and access to information.
So now you're able to drive a lot more interest in the things that they otherwise wouldn't have been exposed to in a way that's very economical where before, you know, you had basically gatekeepers of the information. Where the gatekeepers have pretty much fallen at this point. I think the other thing that's really made a big difference is I know we like the bag on the, and I do the millennials Of how fucked up they are and you guys are fucked up for a lot of reasons, but let me tell you talking to us.
Let me tell you what they are that we weren't they're far more discerning of a consumer. It's true. They have been serious. They have spent their entire lives being advertised to unlike any other generations, [01:00:00] right? And for them, and they're also not as much, they're, everybody's a value consumer. Cause everybody wants to feel what they get for their worth for their money, but they're far more discerning.
They research everything. They read about everything. They make conscious decisions about how they're going to spend their money. And they're okay with spending more. If the quality is actually better, it goes back to your process
**Bam Bam:** statement, right? That's so for them,
**Steve Saka:** that's a part of them as a consumer base.
That's unlike any other consumer base.
**Grinder:** You're speaking to our listener base right now because our podcast. These are the conversations we have. Every time we light up a stick, every time we, we drank a spirit, we're talking about value for money. We're talking about what are the, what are the big value
**Steve Saka:** is a universal thing.
So whether a cigar costs 4 or whether it costs 40, what's really important to you as a consumer when you're [01:01:00] smoking that. Do you say to yourself, I'm happy with what I spent for the experience I'm being given. And if I'm satisfied with that, then guess what? The cigar is the right price. It's just the same way.
Look, a Toyota four door sedan is a wonderful cigar. A Mercedes is the same four door sedan. They both go forward. They both go in reverse. The Mercedes a little bit better fit, a little bit better finish, better interior, a little bit more ergonomically designed. Yeah. I could have spent my 40, 000 on Toyota and say, wow, why would I ever spend 120, 000 on a Mercedes?
But if the guy that gets in his Mercedes. feels the difference. It feels like it's worth the money. Then he's happy with his 120, 000 purchase for his Mercedes. And that's the universal truth about all of us as consumers. It's, we all want to feel like we're getting value for our money, but value is not value.
Based on price value is based on your perception of what you spent [01:02:00] and what it gives you in return. And that's the thing that people need to think about.
**Gizmo:** All right, boys, we'll go back to our conversation with Dunbarton tobacco and trust founder and master blender, Steve Saka in a minute. But first, what are you guys thinking about the pairing? The cigar. Silexio number four from Sin Compromiso and the Weller 107.
**Bam Bam:** You know, honestly, the vanilla notes in this spirit bring out the fruit and fruit forward that I'm getting in this cigar.
I think it's pairing beautifully. I
**Senator:** agree. I think a bourbon with this cigar is a perfect pairing. Agreed. I mean, you could drink plenty of different spirits with this, but like, would I ideally pick up a scotch with this? Probably not. It would be a bourbon or a rum also that has those like sweet notes that would really rum would be really good.
Rum must be good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good call. Maybe a cognac even. I agree with that. Possibly cognac.
**Grinder:** I don't think cognac. I agree. I don't think a scotch would really fit the bill, but [01:03:00] the, the, the caramel to toffee flavor is on the nose and on the, on the tongue as well. It, it doesn't, it, it persists.
Yeah. Which I like.
**Gizmo:** So roo, this is your first time having the cigar. What do you thinking right now?
**Rooster:** Yeah. I mean this, this cigar, I can have this in the morning with a coffee. Yeah. It's not, it's not really, it's not overpowering. It's not overpowering. It's not like a, you know, like a Padron family reserve or like the 90th.
I mean, it's, it's got own, it's got, you know, it's got strength, but it's not, not overly powerful. And it's got like really nice. And it's got a lot of versatility because of that. Yeah, I mean, it's a complex smoke. Um, I don't think it's for a person who has never had, who's a newcomer to, to cigars, you know, it's for a refined palate, but anybody who smokes Padrones, I think would love this.
**Senator:** Agreed. I agree. And, and I'm glad to hear you say that because one of the things that was surprising for me when we were talking with Steve, You know, we obviously [01:04:00] we've reviewed one of his other cigars, you know, prior to this, but I don't have a ton of experience with his full line and him being the guy behind so much of what Liga has done, which are very full bodied cigars.
I just assume that pretty much everything Dunbarton makes is like really, really full, um, and intense in flavor and talking to him and hearing him say that kind of his philosophy, what he likes, and he talks about, you know, How, what he likes is what he sells. And so if you don't like what he likes, then you probably shouldn't buy his cigars.
But his ideal is they make some stuff on the milder spectrum and some stuff on the fuller spectrum and everything in between, but the consistent theme across all of them is like flavor, but smooth delivery. And that's a lot of the time, what we kind of call Padron, at least the regular line, the regular production line that Padron puts out.
And so I finally sitting there was saying like, Oh, wow. There's probably something for me in everything that he makes. And with this cigar, how [01:05:00] much flavor it puts out, but how smooth the delivery is. Like those are the new world cigars that excite me most. I chase a lot of flavor in a new world, but I don't want to be punched in the face when I'm getting it.
And this fits that bill perfectly. Yeah.
**Bam Bam:** I think this opens up an opportunity to dive deep into his catalog. I agree. Right. Yeah, for sure. The
**Rooster:** smoke is very velvety. It is. I mean, it's bellowing
**Bam Bam:** beautiful. It
**Rooster:** coats your mouth and it lingers and it's not a, it's not a, it's a pretty long finish. It is. And the combustion
**Gizmo:** is great.
It's awesome. Amazing. The thing that I will disagree with you guys on as far as accessibility. I think there's a lack of harshness here that you get in a lot of Nicaraguan tobacco. Even the ones that have Ecuadorian like this does, or the San Andres wrapper from Mexico like this does. There's a lack of harshness here that I do think that if someone were to walk in a tobacco shop and pick this up, and having only smoked a couple cigars, or a couple cigars a month, I don't think that they're going to put this to their lips and go, this is too much for me, [01:06:00] or this is weird, or this is a problem, or they're going to want to put it down.
Like, I don't think it's something that lacks accessibility. I
**Senator:** agree
**Gizmo:** with that.
**Senator:** With the caveat that as long as it's not someone who smokes mild cigars, okay,
**Gizmo:** that's
**Senator:** fair. Cause this is not for a mild. So that's fair. Like your father in law, I don't think we'll love this. I agree with you. True. But as long as you smoke like medium or medium full cigars, I do think You'll enjoy this
**Bam Bam:** cigar.
Absolutely.
**Grinder:** I don't think, I don't think, you know, I don't think accessibility is the word I would use. It's, it's more an appreciation for how nuanced the flavor profile is.
**Senator:** Well, and that takes years to acquire that, right? I'm sorry. I would argue it's a pretty fast transition. I say this as like the guy who always hands out exclusivos, right?
Like Gizmo, his palate when we first met was nowhere near what it is now. And it took one Exclusivo for him to instantly a light bulb to go off to say like, Whoa, this is way different. I've told this,
**Bam Bam:** you know, How [01:07:00] long were you smoking cigars at that point? A while. 30 days. Shitty
**Gizmo:** cigars for probably about six years on.
If
**Senator:** you saw the cigars he bought that day. I remember those cigars. I don't want to go through that. My point is that learning either the light go through the list,
the light bulb, that was like a huge revelation. If you anything that he was smoking, then you would not ever pick up. But I use the same example where, you know, it cracks me up. And I think I've told this story where I've had friends over who smoke cigars occasionally, not often. And I'll give them a Padron Exclusivo and they're like, wow, this is a really great cigar.
Now, can they appreciate all the complexity in it that we can? No, but they know it's a very good cigar. And then I'm plowing through all these Exclusivos with these guys. And I'm like, all right, like I'm almost through a box at this point. I'm not just going to hand out like three boxes of Exclusivos in a day.
So I like pick up. Like a Oliva Melanio that [01:08:00] like, I had bought like a box to try and never didn't really enjoy that much. But for someone who doesn't have the palate, we do, they're not going to know the difference to the point of the difference. They, I'm not exaggerating. And these are like friends who are so polite, so nice.
And they're like, Senator. This, this is not as good as a cigar you were giving us before. And I, my mind's blown. I'm like, these guys spoke cigars maybe five times a year and they instantly could tell the difference. And so while I agree with grinder, like, well, someone pick out every nuance of this, like we can, if they don't smoke often, no, but will they know the difference between this and the run of the mill stuff that they might pick up?
Oh, a hundred percent. I really do think they, I
**Bam Bam:** agree with that. And also like from the point of view of, of a gathering, if you're having a Yeah, giving an exclusivo, that's quite generous that Padron 2000 for me has become like part of the repertoire for me to hand out large volume cigars are much more affordable.
**Senator:** I fucked up
**Bam Bam:** them
**Senator:** because once they have the exclusivo, I give them the thousand [01:09:00] series and they're like, this isn't as good as the exclusivo. But
**Bam Bam:** that Padron 2000 reviewed beautifully here among this group. And that is. This is a much more elevated cigar that we're having tonight. Of course.
**Rooster:** So you should have given them the Milano first.
A hundred percent. I totally screwed it up. We're all learning here. We're all learning. Cause you probably thought they'd be like
**Senator:** one and done.
**Rooster:** Maybe one
**Senator:** that, but also, you know, my philosophy, it's a learning process for Senator. No, no, no. It's just, it bites me sometimes. Like for me, it's, I don't want to give out anything that I don't personally really enjoy.
And so the same is true for, you know, champagne, like, I mean, it, it pains me sometimes like, you know, I'll put out good champagne and people who don't know shit about it are sitting there like pounding it left and right. And I'm like, I could have put out a 15 bottle of Prosecco and they'd be just as happy, but I don't want to look at the bottle of Prosecco that I wouldn't want to drink myself.
And I don't like drinking something different than my guests are. So. The same applies with cigars, but once they really got hooked on them and I'm burning through them, that's when I was like, [01:10:00] Oh boy, that's also a very
**Bam Bam:** good point. Like you want, you do want to give cigars that you're proud to hand over.
Right. And it's a great feeling to see other people smoke and enjoy something that you love. That's a very good point. And
**Senator:** I've said this before, like,
**Bam Bam:** I
**Senator:** don't
**Bam Bam:** have a
**Senator:** guest
**Bam Bam:** humidor.
**Senator:** I should, you should, but I don't,
**Bam Bam:** I'm going to go buy my guest tower.
**Senator:** That'll
**Gizmo:** take two years.
**Bam Bam:** Cut off his mic. Well, yeah,
**Gizmo:** well, this is a great cigar boys. And let's go back to the final piece of our interview with Dunbarton tobacco and trust founder and master blender, Steve Saka. And then we'll come back at the end and do our final comments and our rating on the Weller. And the Sin 4. And we, we talk about value a lot.
Sure we do. With regard to, when you sit down and light a cigar. Like we sat down 30, 40 minutes ago with the cigar. It's the time it's, it's the value with relation to time. I'm going to give [01:11:00] an hour, hour and a half, two hours of my day to this cigar. Is it really giving the time investment that I've made in it?
Does it make it worthwhile? And it's, it's like you said, it's price really, in
**Steve Saka:** some ways, has nothing to do with that. Price is determined by your wallet. We can only spend what we have. So we're all on a price, like, I'm not a big wine drinker, okay? Wine is an occasional thing, more because my wife wants to do something fancy, whatever, right?
I find myself as a consumer of wines. I find myself to be satisfied for most of the bottles that I buy that are between 28 and 40 dollars. That's where I've decided the price break is. Uh, if it's Thanksgiving dinner, okay, I'll spray 140 here, 160 there for those meals. I'll buy the whatever stag's leap or something like that.
But that's the mental determination that I have made as a consumer of wine. That's not like into wine. Where I feel like I'm happy. Now that [01:12:00] doesn't mean that I don't drink an 8 bottle of wine and go, Oh my God, that's amazing. And it doesn't mean that I don't drink a thousand dollar wine and go, what the fuck, a thousand dollars.
Are you shitting me? You know what I mean? But we all kind of find a place for ourselves where we're comfortable. with what we spend. And ultimately, we judge everything kind of in that price bracket. In other words, if you're a consumer that regularly smokes a 20 cigar, it's very unlikely that you're going to start smoking an 8 cigar.
You're really comparing your experience to other cigars that are near that price point to figure out what's the best value for you because you have come in your head to determine This is where I find things are good or bad. I'm a huge Brown spirits guy, right? I love bourbons. I love scotches. Um, have I had plenty that are ridiculously expensive that I go, wow, that's amazing.
But do I like it better than my 85 bottle of Lagoolin? [01:13:00] Do I like it better than my 50 bottle of Noah's mill? No, I don't like it enough that it's worth six times the value. Somebody else may say, no, I do appreciate the difference. I do see the value in it. So therefore this is what I'm going to buy, but that's an individual decision that we as consumers could only make for ourselves.
And that's what we're And that we as manufacturers, we can't tell you that. Why are you smoking this? Why are you smoking that? You're spending too much. You're spending too little. That, that is something that you, we have no control over.
**Gizmo:** You know, the thing that's, that's really, really interesting about this cigar is, and I don't know what the age of the tobacco is.
I know you're not a big age guy per se. I'm shocked at how, how smooth it is.
**Steve Saka:** Yeah, but that's true with all of our cigars. So I had a, this won't be as appealing on radio or audio, but so when I was like a, so I started off as a cigar geek. That's how I got [01:14:00] into cigars, like crazy cigar geeks. So one of the things I did is I went to visit a factory in Honduras.
They made some of my favorite cigars. Um, it was quite a Monterey and punch. Um, it was owned by an independent company called Villazon it's a, and I'm not saying cigars are worse today than they were then, but it's a much, much different company, far removed from the people that were originally involved.
And their general manager master maker at the time was a gentleman named Estella Padron. Estella Padron was the brother. Of Jose Orlando Padron, God rest his soul, both Estello and Jose Orlando have passed. And he was one of my favorite cigar makers. And I went to the factory and I shouted to him for about two weeks.
At one point he said to me, Saka, Saka, the most important thing you need to know about making good cigars is this. And he pounds his chest like this. And I'm young and new, so what do I say? Passion, right? Passion, love. Fuck that. No! What a good cigar is a cigar. Where when you're smoking this cigar that's in [01:15:00] your mouth that you're checking your pocket to see that you have another that's what a really good cigar is.
A good cigar should be strong enough and satisfying that you're really enjoying it while you're smoking it. But when you get to the end of it. You want to reach back into the bag and take another potato chip. So while I love occasionally smoking a really strong peppery biting cigar, I find it wipes me out.
So what I like for me, even if a blend is mild and even if a blend is super strong, It still needs to be smooth is my personal viewpoint on cigars. So even our heaviest blends are still always smooth to the palate. Cause I don't want the cigar to wipe you out. I want it. I want it at the end. I want to leave you craving another one.
I want you to do runner runner. And why do I do that? Because I'm shameless and I want to make more money. I [01:16:00] want you to smoke another cigar. That's excellent.
**Senator:** Steve, mission accomplished. Yeah, correct. So I just have to ask, we've talked a lot about cigars, but I do want to just get into briefly a bit about your story.
And I say that because You built and ran a, such a wildly successful operation at Drew estate. And so what was kind of the light bulb that went off when you said, I want to go out on my own and build what you're building right now. So
**Steve Saka:** before I was at Drew estate, Drew estate was actually, so I had a much better job before I was president of Drew estate.
Um, I worked for J. R. Cigar and I, I did a lot of their, uh, custom projects and whatnot while I was there. So actually when I went to be president of Drew estate, that was actually a step down. Um, the truth is I'd spent 20 years of my career. Making other people really rich and look, not that I didn't do well along the way, but I kind of got to the point in my life.
And look, I've been very blessed in life. I've been bought out three times, which is an [01:17:00] experience that most people, you're lucky in your life. You get bought out once. That's amazing. Right. I've got, I've gotten bought out three times. And, um, you always hear about that guy on wall street that gets really rich and then goes to Vermont and does goat cheese.
I wanted to be that dude. Well, that's you. Right. So. So basically what we do now is look, we're a small family company. We only make cigars that I like. We look, we've been in business nine years. We had our first company meeting actual, like real company meeting in December. Nine years without a fucking meeting.
That's perfect for me. I like that. I just. I got tired of bankers in my life and attorneys in my life and sales and marketing weenies and focus groups and all of that nonsense. And I just wanted to do what I wanted to do. We're like, we're, we're a company that's like really beloved and really disliked by a lot of retailers.
I mean, we most come, like we haven't given a single deal or a discount on a cigar. Since [01:18:00] 2017, we're the trade show. There's no deal now for our best retailers. We give them unicorns. We give them stuff to support them, but we don't do business that way. I don't give a fact that you have a beautiful shop.
You're the best shop in Chicago, whatever, yada, yada, yada. No, I just don't care. I just want to be in shops that like the product, like the brand. We don't have salesmen and brokers on the road and almost the entire country. We have a few. That we started with in the beginning, going the traditional model that have done a good job.
And I have no reason to take that away from them, but we haven't added a single person to go out and sell cigars since about 2017, that's amazing. You know what I mean? We just basically, we do business with the people that want to do business with us and God bless them. We love them, but I've always been a believer in dance with a girl that wants to dance with you.
Don't don't chance something. So we've been a very slow growth, organic company. It's what we [01:19:00] do, you know, and it's worked really, really well for us. And, uh, I'm just too old to want to do all that bullshit again. Right.
**Bam Bam:** But you control every component of your production now. I'm the top to bottom. It's terrible.
**Steve Saka:** Yeah. That's a lot of work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm the, I do all the tobacco buying. I do all the blending. I do all the production scheduling. I do all the final QC. I'm the guy, like all the brands. The graphics on them. I do that too. No, I'm not good at it. So I typically have a 10 year old on another monitor telling me on YouTube how to do things and illustrator and those little bastards.
I use that today to
**Gizmo:** learn how to iron iron a shirt, by the way. I
**Steve Saka:** mean, I swear to God, it's we're, we're, we're a real small mom and pop. We're, we're a small light team. I mean, in the U S. We have less than 10 employees, but we do, we do business like we have 30. I mean, it's kind of crazy, but it's good because you know what it means is it means that everybody that we have is really [01:20:00] sharp and they work really hard and they get paid more.
And I like that part. There's a, there's a benefit to your work and we, we have no partners and we have no debt and I don't have to worry about anything. And, you know, and it look, when you don't have the pressure to sell. It makes things easier. And I'm not trying to discount it. Look, we stay in business because people buy our cigars, but we don't, we don't feel the pressure.
Oh, the numbers are down. We got to do this. We got to figure out your setting your own rules. Right. And, uh, look for the partners that we do business with. It's really great for other people. They hate it. Look, they're their own independent businesses. I don't tell them how to run their shops. I don't tell them how to operate their businesses.
They make decisions that are in their best interests. And look, even if our interests don't align, I don't. Disrespected. Sure. You know what I mean? It's likely that those
**Pagoda:** that buy
**Steve Saka:** from [01:21:00] you
**Pagoda:** align with your values.
**Gizmo:** That's what you hope.
**Pagoda:** Yeah,
**Gizmo:** I was gonna ask, you know, you're coming up on 10 years
**Pagoda:** with Dunbarton.
Amazing.
**Gizmo:** What kind of roller coaster ride has that been for you behind the scenes in 10 years? Is it up and down? Was it a slow? No, no, we've been blessed
**Steve Saka:** to pretty much grow year over year, but I will admit it's been a grind. Um, you know, the first, the first three years were really hard in the beginning, and as time goes on, it gets a bit easier.
The problem is the more successful we are, the more work that I have to do because there's just more tobacco, more cigar work than is necessary. So like, for example, I do a lot of podcasts and I, I'm on social media quite a bit. But I physically, I'm not the road warrior going and doing that hand to hand combat.
I just don't have the capacity to do so.
**Senator:** And I'm also curious when you think about the next 10 years, what that looks like from your perspective. And I say that [01:22:00] because For me personally, and I think a lot of our listeners, you talking about delivering even the fullest body of cigars that you make, having a smooth delivery, and you talk about markets like Brazil and these other emerging international markets that are starting to smoke more new world cigars.
I think for any consumer in a market that's used to a Habanos or a mild or medium cigar, what the gateway into some of those fuller cigars, Nicaraguan tobacco is that smooth delivery, which sounds exactly like what you're looking to deliver. So I'm just curious, what do you see as kind of the next 10 years for, for what you're building?
I'll be dead.
**Steve Saka:** I'm going Tuesday to Tuesday, new release to new release. Look, I, I don't ultimately know. I mean, I don't even know if I'll be doing this 10 years from now. I mean, it's hard to know that I've, I've learned I'm old enough to know to never say never and never to make ironclad statements because they just end up [01:23:00] biting you in the ass in the long run.
I mean, right now we're just going to keep doing what we're doing,
**Pagoda:** you know? Well, we hope you keep doing it.
**Steve Saka:** There's no, there's no current plan to change, but at the same time, as some idiot says he wants to give me a hundred million dollars to go away, I'm taking the a hundred million. You guys are on your own.
I'm not stupid, you know, but I mean, I really don't know. I mean, right now I'm just focused on what we're doing currently. Right. You know, it's funny you asked me that because. We just redid our, uh, our final, our, our wills on our estate planning. And, you know, one of the things that makes it very confusing is this small family owned company that, you know, like, and I'm just kind of like, if I die, just shut it down, we'll take it.
We're here. Because I mean, I, I don't, I don't know how it functions. Right. The way it's currently set up without, [01:24:00] without me. Yeah. That's kind of a sad thing, but it's the reality of it.
**Gizmo:** I mean, you've built an amazing legacy over all these years. You're so well respected.
**Steve Saka:** I don't know. I think, I think, I think most consumers have no clue who I am.
I think the discerning are smokers have never heard of Don Burton, and they've never heard of Steve Saka, and they have no clue whatsoever. I
**Gizmo:** think
**Steve Saka:** the
**Gizmo:** discerning and curious customers, the people that you want to reach
**Bam Bam:** are, and I think the more people that understand your process and how you make the cigar.
I think just brings so much value to people. They'll be buying more and more. You hope. Yeah, absolutely.
**Senator:** I was going to say, and just what you're trying to do. I mean, I love a full cigar as much as the next, but I'm looking for a smooth delivery and experience. I'm not looking to be punched in the face.
Like some consumers are hearing you say what you just did. So let me say this opens up
**Steve Saka:** for me, both cigar smokers, you get like cigar crazy. They obviously amp up the level of cigar. They'll get to a point where they get to the point where you just can't [01:25:00] make a stronger cigar and it still burns. And they'll go through a phase where they'll be there for like three, four years.
But almost universally, they eventually drift back a little bit less because the problem is when you're getting something that's so strong, it wipes out all the flavor nuances. It kills the aroma. It kills the experience. So when you look at the guys that have been smoking 20 and 30 years, They did go through that phase where it couldn't be stronger.
You just, you're always chasing the dragon. Eventually, almost always, they always kind of drift back a little. And oddly enough, they also sometimes get to the point where they can start to appreciate that mild cigar. That they had dismissed 10, 15 years ago. That seems to be a natural evolution for most smokers.
And it is the evolution of most smokers. We've gone through it. We have. We've gone through that. Short of us. Because, and this is one of the reasons why you see some of these brands get like uber hot for like a stretch. Cause they're just hitting that high. Point where they're kidding those [01:26:00] consumers that are in that segment of when they're smoking.
Yeah. But very rarely do they ultimately keep them. 'cause almost everybody dials it back a little bit. Uh, look, look at the, the crazy we've had recently with super high proof liquors, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Oh, it's gotta be 120. It's gotta be one 14. It's gotta be this. It's gotta be that. But almost always you like, yeah, I still like my liquor a little hot.
but I don't quite like it that hot. Right. Right. And you just kind of drift back a little bit where you start to get more of the flavor and more of the nuance.
**Senator:** Can you talk a little bit about just your thoughts on aging tobacco? Because I feel like you've been on the record talking about this. I'm curious for our listener.
**Steve Saka:** Look, I am not the guy that's going to be the proponent of long term aging on tobaccos in the bale. Um, look, the longer something ages, I think you start to dissipate flavor. Now, I know it's a selling point, but Say this is made out of five [01:27:00] year this and 10 year that. And look, there's a certain segment that makes a certain style of cigar, but I also think that you're, you're giving away too much.
So for me, most of the trippas that I use are typically right around two years of bale aging on most of the materials. And most of the wrappers that I use range between two to three years. I don't tend to go long term. I don't actually only have one cigar in the portfolio that's expressly made with all vintage tobaccos, and that's in Western Osaka, the Exclusivo.
That cigar is made all the cigar, all the tobacco in that is aged a minimum of five years, but the reality we're at the point now where it's aged like a minimum of seven. Minimum of five is what we say out loud because That's a safe number for me to say, you know, as good as that is, this is a revelation, this little cigar, so that we're smoking right now, but again, it goes back to what you as a consumer enjoy smoking.
**Gizmo:** It's been an amazing hour with you. I think, I hope this is going to be the [01:28:00] first of many. I feel like we could sit here and talk for six or 10 or 12 hours
**Bam Bam:** opening and very educational for me personally. Look, anytime you
**Steve Saka:** guys reach out to me, I. Like this doesn't cost me anything to bullshit. So let
**Gizmo:** me know.
We appreciate your time. Thanks so much for being with us and we'll talk to you soon.
All right. Well, thanks again to Steve Saka, the founder and master blender at Dunbarton tobacco and trust for spending that amount of time with us at the PCA show, which is incredibly busy. He gave us a full hour to sit and talk with him. And it was awesome. I mean, I couldn't believe how open and honest he was, not only about his own company, his own brand, which he's known for, but also how we got into the Cuban cigar thing, which was really unintentional.
We didn't preface, you know, anything with him. We just kind of naturally went into that part of the conversation and it was really enlightening his, his kind of transparency with how good Cuban cigars can be and, [01:29:00] How different they are from what the New World manufacturers. What was
**Bam Bam:** also meaningful was the trajectory that he took from working with these companies and then bringing it down so that he has control of every step of the way, every part of the process.
That's impressive.
**Senator:** Well, yeah, I also think, you know, we've talked about how, for us and why the pod is structured the way it is, is because, you know, we love both New World and Cuban cigars. One doesn't take away from the other. They, in many ways, compliment each other, right? Like it's about building kind of in strength and in flavor and in what you're looking for.
And I think he echoed basically a similar sentiment. He's like, you know, I love new world cigars because you S he, he said he smoked tens of thousands of Cubans. And he got to a point where he wanted more and that's what he pursued from new world cigars. And then there were times that you want a little less and then that's what Cubans can be good for.
And so I just thought like he perfectly captured our palates and why we pursue tobacco from so many different [01:30:00] countries and regions. And um, you know, I hope, especially for our listeners, like I, I'm shocked sometimes, like perfect example, we met with some listeners at PCA who said, I only smoke Cuban cigars.
And to me, that's crazy. I mean, you'll remember this. We had this conversation with, um, Tuxedo Timmy. Tuxedo Timmy. Yep. And I gave him a Padron 80th, a Padron Exclusivo, a Davidoff Millennium Pyramid, and an Oliva V. Lancero. And I said, if you don't love at least two of these four cigars, you're I'll be absolutely stunned.
And I think he tried the Millennium Pyramid. He was very happy with it. And I think it's, you know, for, for those lizards that are kind of in one camp, there's a whole other world out there. And I, I hope, um, that we're helping them explore that because all of us started in one camp at one point and have now migrated to a place where I think we're open to so many different cigars and we see the [01:31:00] merits of all different types of And we
**Gizmo:** constantly talk about rotations and how each of these things fall into a point in a rotation for us.
If it's daily, if it's weekly, if it's special occasion, like every good cigar or every great cigar has its place in a rotation, no matter its origin or blend. And I think to his point, it's like each of these things can offer something really unique and very complimentary to the other. But there
**Bam Bam:** are also some of the, some new worlds that we've discovered, like the Oliva Villancero is very reminiscent of the Cuban experience because of the way it I think in my opinion.
**Rooster:** I mean, it's also when you smoke a Cuban cigar, you kind of want a new world after, right? Or you kind of want to mix that in and vice versa. I mean, you, you smoke a lot of new worlds. You want to have a Cuban cigar. So it's good to have that mix.
**Gizmo:** I got to say this cigar tonight has been excellent. You know, obviously when we sit with a guy like Steve Saka and we smoke his cigar, we don't rate it.
It's not under the [01:32:00] microscope. We're focused on the conversation. Kind of the rhythm of that, but when we're under the microscope here in our, in our studio where we record a 10 86, it's like we're able to really dial down into the flavors and the nuance of the cigars. And I think that a lot of the things he talked about in the episode are very clearly represented here in the conversation we've had tonight.
You know, packaged around this, this interview. Like, I think a lot of what his intention has been is really delivered in this cigar. And I think it's very complimentary to a lot of the other things that we smoke. Like these things come in boxes of 13. Like I'm kind of depressed. They don't come in boxes of 25 cause I want to go out and buy a good amount of these.
Cause it's been a really good cigar tonight.
**Bam Bam:** Yeah. You know, it, That, that fruit note that I captured early, it's still there and it's continuing through. There are not a single rough edge on this cigar at all. I think it's picked up in spice a tiny bit. A little bit, but a little bit, but
**Steve Saka:** not aggressive, not aggressive.
No, [01:33:00] no.
**Senator:** Yeah. I'm just impressed that the final third for me is just as enjoyable as the first third that got me excited about this cigar. And I think that's the hardest thing we're always looking for in any stick is can it hold up all the way through and, and this cigar has.
**Rooster:** Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this, this kind of makes me want to buy a box of these.
Yeah, me too. Me too. I'm going to have to buy two to get 26. Like
**Bam Bam:** I said earlier, we're going to do a deep
**Rooster:** dive into this catalog for
**Bam Bam:** sure.
**Rooster:** Yeah. I'm curious to try that 44 ring gauge. Yeah. 44 by 7. I mean, I love that size. I'm
**Bam Bam:** curious about the
**Senator:** Lencero collection that he had. I'm even curious to try like his mildest of smokes.
And the reason I say that, something, I think this is probably the hardest thing to find is like mild cigars that are satisfying enough. And I think we've occasionally stumbled upon some cigars that are milder that were like, wow, this delivers enough flavor that this is enjoyable. And I think about that, like for the morning rotation, right?
Like that's probably where I have the fewest [01:34:00] cigars to slot. Like what do I want in the morning? I can count on probably one hand the cigars that like I routinely enjoy in the morning where in the evening we have dozens of cigars that we would name. And so the fact that this is a guy who loves flavor, right?
Who's behind some of Liga's greatest successes ever, who makes milder cigars. They've got to deliver enough flavor, I feel like, to satisfy palates like ours. So, I'm actually really excited to even try those, too. I
**Grinder:** think the way he spoke about the Sobremesa, I think that's a good one to try. Yeah, that's the one we should try.
**Gizmo:** Especially with a cup of coffee.
**Rooster:** We should do a coffee pairing one day. Yeah, that'd be great. Alright,
**Gizmo:** boys, you ready to move into the ratings tonight? On the Weller 107 and the Sin Compromiso. Silexio No. 4 from Dunbarton.
**Bam Bam:** Yes, sir. All right, Bam Bam, you're up. I'm at a nine with the Weller. The vanilla notes on the nose, and honestly with ice, it's fantastic.
Without, a little difficult to drink, but the price point and the enjoyability of this, [01:35:00] and just going back to what you said earlier, I probably can do two glasses of this with ice. Uh, so I'm at a nine. Okay, Grindr.
**Grinder:** I'm at an eight. Um, I, I really enjoyed it. I thought the, the sweetness was, was really, um, on the nose, was, was carried through on the palate pretty well.
Um, I, I don't think I could drink more than as much as I, Uh,
**Gizmo:** so
**Grinder:** for that reason, uh, it's probably not as high, highly rated, um, but for me, it was delicious. It's eight to eight to solid score for bourbon for me.
**Senator:** Okay. Senator. I'm also at an eight on the bourbon. I would definitely drink it again. I think it's got a really rich, robust flavor profile.
I think it paired really well with this particular cigar. Yes, it did. I just think, I mean, I tried it neat to start and it's, it's hot. I mean, 107 proof and with ice, it definitely helps. It opens up, it mellows out a bit, but it's [01:36:00] still got a bite. There is some aggression there. And so, you know, the things when you think about like the occasion that we're trying to pair for like cigars, we're spending a lot of time smoking a cigar.
**Rooster:** So
**Senator:** I'm not having usually one drink when I have a cigar. Right. I'm spending hours having five or six drinks. Right. I mean, we all are. We all are. Sure. For Pagoda, three times that, but only, only beer at PCA. But because of that, I need something that I can enjoy multiple glasses of. And so just as a pairing with a cigar, I'm not, I'm not sure that I would reach for the Weller 107 nearly as much as I would reach for the Weller special reserve that I'm sure I gave a nine, if not even a 10.
So for me, I would drink it again. It would be like an after dinner drink, or when I have kind of a short window that I'm looking for something that's flavorful as [01:37:00] a spirit, but is it something I would pair regularly with cigars? No. So that's why I'm at an eight.
**Gizmo:** So I'm at a, I'm at a nine. Um, The 107 for me, I drank it neat the entire time.
I thought it enhanced the experience with the cigar tonight. I think very in line with Steve's mantra, always having bourbon around, you know, I, I thought this was an excellent bourbon. I really like it. I have a couple of bottles at home. Um, I don't reach for it a ton because I, I reach for the special reserve a little more.
It's a little, it has a little less heat, so it's a little bit easier on the palate. But for the pairing tonight, I think it's an excellent bourbon. So I'm very, very happy at a nine. And that puts the formal liqueurating boys at an eight point five. OK, that's
**Senator:** a
**Gizmo:** great score. So we talked about the price.
It's what would you say it was? Fifty seven dollars. Yeah. And what is the proof on this?
**Senator:** It's, it's called the antique 107 gizmo. All right. I'm going to forget. I said that 107 proof. I just did some quick math there. I'm [01:38:00] going to, I'm going to edit that out. That is getting edited out.
**Gizmo:** All right, boys, it's time to move into the formal lizzer rating tonight on the Dunbarton tobacco and trust selection.
Number four from the Sin Compromiso line. Rooster, you're up. Steve
**Rooster:** Saka. This is a home run. This is a great cigar. I mean, I loved it. Uh, we all like Padron's and I think if there's any Padron's smoke are out there, go out and get, you know, try these, these are, these are excellent. Sin Compromiso, it delivers.
Uh, it's a solid nine for me.
**Senator:** Awesome. Great score. Senator. I'm in exactly the same camp. It's a nine. The construction was flawless. I had no problems with it whatsoever. I think it's actually a beautiful looking cigar. Great wrapper. Um, not super toothy or overly rustic at all. Um, the flavor profile is complex.
The fact that we were all able to [01:39:00] call out so many distinct notes and I think they carried all the way through the cigar. Great cigar. Is a huge testament to the cigar. Biggest selling point for me is just how much flavor it delivers, but so smoothly, like that's how I fell in love with Padron so many years ago.
And it's why I'm falling in love with what Dumbarton is doing with The, the blends that they put out, um, that's, I think the hardest thing to do. I mean,
**Bam Bam:** but that's what we look for in every cigar we sell. You take
**Senator:** Nicaraguan tobacco, that's really bold. And to be able to deliver that smoothly is not easy.
I mean, we've had plenty of Nicaraguan cigars that we would say like, wow, this will kick you around. This is not for the faint of heart. And this is not like that at all. I think it's refined. I would absolutely buy a box. And, um, it's a very strong recommend a nine for me.
**Gizmo:** Yeah. So I'm also a nine for sure.
I was impressed at the show. I thought it might've been a fluke. You know, we're sitting there with Steve [01:40:00] having the cigar at PCA. Great conversation. Yeah. Enthusiasm. Excited. It's great. And then we sit here under the microscope and I'm thinking like, I hope it delivers. And wow, did it deliver? Oh, sure. I could totally see this slotting in a weekly or close to daily rotation for me.
The price points accessible. I think it's around the price of, we always talk about the Exclusivo around that 14, 15 mark. I'm very, very happy with the cigar at that price. And like Rooster said, I want to try some of the other Vitolas in the San Compromiso line. Like it's a really great blend. I like the draw a little resistant on the draw.
I liked the combustion. I thought it was excellent across the board. So it's a nine for me all day. I'm very, very happy with the cigar tonight. I
**Senator:** would also just quickly on what Gizmo said there, I legitimately thought. Us smoking this again after having it with Steve that this wouldn't be as enjoyable.
You had some skepticism, right? A little bit. Not that I thought it would be a bad cigar, but just that [01:41:00] I thought like, you know, the experience we're having at PCA, it's like, you know, when we're in Havana and we're smoking Cubans, like they taste better. They do. You're just in that element and you're just enjoying things that much more.
And the, uh, the craziest part of it for me, it's, it's not just that I'm enjoying it as much. I enjoyed this more under the microscope than I even did when we were sitting at PCA having that. That's a testament. I mean, there's just
**Rooster:** something smoking in this room, you know, without the ventilation going and stuff.
I would really just enjoy the cigars. Yeah. Rooster loves the hot box. Hot box. I do.
**Senator:** Grinder. Just ask his Tesla.
**Grinder:** So I, I, I mean, you guys, I immediately after we smoked the cigar at PCA, I, I, I turned to you guys. I was like, I really, really love that cigar. And, um, the Testament there carried through even, even here still. Um, I would say [01:42:00] when I smoked this cigar, I do get, um, some of the.
Remnants or vestiges of his previous work with Liga and you know the t52 I Reference a lot I get some of those tasting notes and I and those are that's what I love But this takes it to a wholly different level where there's so much difference. It's not just cocoa great point There's other there's other nuance that's That's more flavorful and it's, and it's still smoother for some reason.
Um, and you know, I'm just impressed with what he's done with this. Uh, I loved it from the moment. Then this is a 10 for me. You guys, this is, you know, I'm not surprised though. That's it's an appropriate rating for this. Like this is a 10 for me. Cause I. You know, you know what I like? This is, this is, this is right in it.
Um, and, you know, on the, on the stronger flavor side, this is kind of what I like. And, uh, the way that, you know, the [01:43:00] chicory root, like what that was like out of, Left field like that. And the way he brought in some of these flavors is just, is fantastic. And I can't wait to smoke more of his cigars. And I was on here trying to find a box earlier.
They're, they're just not out yet. So once they do come out, I'm going to get a bunch for sure. And I'm going to share, you know, I want to, this is a cigar I want others to try.
**Bam Bam:** I agree with you on that. Bam Bam. So, as I take my final draw As your fingers are burning. Yeah, I've got about a half inch on this.
You know, I What else can I say about this cigar? I'm just gonna go back to the notes that for me rang true. The dark chocolate and the fruit carried through all the way. It didn't get hot. There was no rough edges at all. And the smooth, luxurious delivery on this, for me it's a 10. And the price point can't be beat.
**Senator:** I have to say, I mean, the funny thing is For anybody that knows Steve Saka, I almost wish we didn't love this cigar as much as we do because he's [01:44:00] going to, he's going to immediately say, you guys are full of shit and you're just giving it a high rating because you sat down with me. Yes. So I almost wish that we didn't enjoy as much as we did, but no bullshit.
This is a fantastic cigar. This
**Bam Bam:** is an
**Senator:** awful
**Bam Bam:** cigar. Uh, Steve, you're doing something right here. Fantastic. All right,
**Gizmo:** boys. That puts the formal wizard rating on the Barton sin compromiso. Select CEO number four. At a 9. 4. That is that's an elite school. When I tell you that is at least five, if not 10 points higher than I expected it to score tonight.
It's crazy. I'm shocked at that. A 9. 4. Let's compare both the Weller at an 8. 5 and the Dunbarton Selexio number four from Sin Compromiso at a 9. 4 to the others we've done from both of those. The Weller special reserve on episode 111 got a 9. 8. That's a hell of a rating. Oh yeah. That beat, uh, the Weller 1 0 7, the higher proof little hotter by about 13 points, and the [01:45:00] Mora Daka from Dunbarton Tobacco and Trust.
We did the Bewitched on episode 110 that got an 8.7. Yeah, so Steve is batting a thousand absolutely on this podcast. And Dunbarton, the syn Corpio cello number four at a 9.4 is a fantastic, excellent, fantastic showing for Dun Barton tonight.
**Senator:** Can I say one more thing about the Weller? Absolutely. So one of the things with Weller that we really loved when we reviewed the special reserve, and this is true of all of Weller, is how in their mash bill, they use wheat instead of rye.
And rye is usually spicier. The issue I have, I, I, the reason I'm saying this, I don't want the listener to think like any hot spirit we can't appreciate because it's not really that. And I did a poor job explaining this. It's, there's a spiciness to the finish on this. That Is in many ways contradictory to what I love about Weller.
Like, there are many bourbons out there that [01:46:00] have a spicy finish. And if you like that profile, you're going to love that bourbon. I don't expect or want that from Weller for my palate. And that's why for me, it was an 8. And not a nine or a 10. Um, so I think, you know, it's good that there's clearly some range in the Weller line.
Like if you don't like a spicy bourbon, then you really ought to go with the special reserve. We'll have to do the 12 year. I'm not sure where that falls on the spectrum, but this one Oh seven has a spiciness on the finish that if that's what you like, you're going to love that, and if it's not, then it's something that maybe you're not going to appreciate just as much, but that's really the driving reason.
**Bam Bam:** For me on the finish, it's a little different. I had more of a caramel experience than spice. I. tend to go for more of a robust spirit. This thing for me was really caramel and vanilla all the way through. It wasn't hot with the ice. For me, it was a different, slightly different experience. But it just goes to show each palate's different.
**Gizmo:** So boys, we have to thank Steve Saka again for coming on and sitting down with us for an hour at PCA. [01:47:00] Having a great conversation. I feel like we could have done eight hours of content. Oh, I think that was clearly the first of many. First of many. Yeah, absolutely. Let's hope so. So thanks again to Steve and tonight on the podcast, the Weller 107 got an 8.5 and the Dunbarton Sin Compromiso Selección number four. Scored an impressive 9. 4 an excellent night boys. Again, a great time at PCA, great conversation with Steve and we'll see everybody next week.
Hope you enjoyed this episode. Thanks for joining us. You can find our merch store and ratings archive at our brand new website, lounge lizards, pod. com. That's lounge lizards pod. com. Don't forget to leave us a rating and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. If you have any comments, questions, do you want to reach out, say hello, tell us what you're smoking, email us hello at lounge lizards pod.com. You can also find us on Instagram at lounge lizards pod. We really appreciate your time and we'll, uh, we'll see [01:48:00] you next week.