Episode 58: An MF PM | The Role of a Mutual Fund Portfolio Manager

What does a Mutual Fund Portfolio Manager do all day? As it turns out, it's not as much Wolf of Wall Street as you're probably hoping. Still, with the help of guest James Gauthier, Vice President, Investment Products & Platforms at iA Private Wealth, Josh & Colin cover the excitement and the hard work that goes into the job. In a very down-to-earth and realistic way, you'll hear how decisions are made and what they mean.

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Announcer
You're about to get lucky with the Barenaked Money podcast, the show that gives you the naked truth about personal finance with your hosts, Josh Sheluk and Colin White, portfolio managers with WLWP Wealth Planners, iA Private Wealth.
Josh Sheluk
Well, Colin and I have a very special guest today for our podcast, the James Gauthier, the Vice President of Investment Products and Platforms with iA Private Wealth. Now, James is a guy who him and I go pretty far back and worked together in the past, and probably the guy who I've had more informal conversations about markets and investing and the products that different companies put out than just about anybody on this planet. And a guy who not only do I have a tremendous amount of respect for, but I've learned a tremendous amount from over the years. James, we are really happy to have you on the podcast. Thanks so much for joining us today.
James Gauthier
Truly flattering intro. Josh, I appreciate it. As you guys both know, I'm a big fan of the pod. I'm happy to be here, excited to help out, and I'm really excited to hear some excellent sarcasm from Colin.
Colin White
Well, I see James. I mean, Josh gave you the real intro. What I'm going to say is I have more fun fighting with you than many other people, so I'm really looking forward to the next little while to see if we can get into a good old passion scrap over something.
James Gauthier
Well, even more flattery though. I'm happy to help.
Colin White
So James, I'll kind of lead it off because this has come out of a question that we get from clients of ours. And it's a serious question because we talk about these mutual funds manager people. And to the retail investor, these people seem magical. They can actually move stuff with their minds, things of that nature. So could you maybe shine a light on how a mutual fund manager spends his day? Is that something you can comment on? Because you've spoken to thousands of mutual fund managers over your career. Hundreds at least, right?
James Gauthier
Yeah. For sure, Colin. It's definitely up there. And I would say all of us in whatever we do, we each have our own nuances in terms of our approach to the job. So maybe I'll just answer that from a very high level macro perspective, but a portfolio manager's role is to manage a basket of securities, whether those are stocks or bonds or a combination of the two to a specific set of objectives. That might be a growth objective, an income objective, and maybe more importantly to manage the overall risk level of the portfolio so that investors are getting an experience that they're at least expected.
Essentially, they need to determine what securities go into the portfolio, what the weights of those securities should be, and then they need to determine when those weights need to change and when names need to be replaced. It sounds pretty simple. It is pretty simple based on that explanation, but determining the securities that go in, what needs to be changed, I mean, that's really where most of the work is involved.
Colin White
I think you've got a different version of simple than maybe many people listening to this podcast. And you covered a lot of ground there. About a quarter inch deep, but you covered a lot of ground. And that sounds like a whole bunch for one person to keep control of. Is it mainly one person who's doing all that? Or in your experience, how many people are on the team to accomplish all these various things?
James Gauthier
Yeah. That's a great point, Colin, and it differs wildly across the board. There are some very large companies out there that I'm sure many of the listeners have heard of, whether it's Fidelity or Capital Group or in Canada specifically companies like Mackenzie or Dynamic Mutual Funds. These are very large investment organizations that have very large investment infrastructures. So teams of analysts. Those analysts are individuals whose job is to analyze a certain basket of securities that are kind of under their coverage purview.
Again, different companies do it differently. Sometimes there's an army of analysts that work on behalf of an army of portfolio managers, sometimes the portfolio managers have dedicated teams of individuals who look at specific types of securities, crunching numbers, meeting with management, meeting with third party analysts. And that's a whole other conversation. There are other analysts who get paid to sell their research to these mutual fund managers. Research is really the fundamental element that drives what goes into the portfolio.
So people who are running mutual funds, they need to understand the landscape of potential opportunities, potential securities, and that number is in the thousands and thousands of securities depending on the type of fund we're dealing with. And they need to figure out the appropriate way to whittle down that list of thousands of securities to a basket of 30, 40, 50 different securities depending on what they're looking to do. Yeah. That takes resources, that takes people.
There are situations, Colin, where there is a single person at the top of the fund running the funds. Clearly that individual will not have the capability to review thousands and thousands of individual securities, but I have seen a number of situations where single man operations or single woman operations are quite successful. So there's not necessarily a correlation between success and the number of bodies that you have in the room, but there certainly is a correlation between the number of bodies in the room and your ability to turn over more stones.
Josh Sheluk
So you keep mentioning this, picking securities, putting together a portfolio. And you touched on it a little bit there, James, about the research that goes into it, but I guess when I think about a portfolio manager, I think most of their day is spent on research. So this team, let's not just single at the portfolio manager anymore but let's look at the team, what are they looking at to determine which securities or which actual investments end up in the portfolio looking at the thousands of possibilities that are out there?
James Gauthier
Sure Joshua. Well look, maybe let's break it down to a fairly simple example. Let's suppose you have a money manager whose job is to put together a portfolio of Canadian dividend paying stocks. So what are we talking about there? Maybe some banks, some utilities, some energy. So you've got fairly narrow opportunity set if you will. So you're not talking about thousands and thousands of names there, you're probably talking about dozens and dozens of names. So it's going to be a much more manageable list of names to match. So this particular portfolio manager might have a team of two or three analysts.
You might say, Michelle, you cover financial services stocks, Joe, you cover utilities, Pete, you cover the real estate investment trust base. He might say to Michelle, okay Michelle, financial services, stocks, banks and insurance companies. What I want you to do is assess the quality of the company. Try to figure out based on your analytical background which one is the best. And best is usually going to be just defined by, what are the risk return characteristics of that particular security?
Now, there's no magic number to discerning what's right and what's wrong. I mean, it's very much an art rather than a science. But that individual would use their analytical framework and their tools and their knowledge, have conversations with management, have conversations with analysts on the sell side who were also paid to cover these names to try to come to a conclusion as to what name is the best name for what I'm trying to achieve.
So if they're looking at the big five Canadian banks trying to determine whether Royal Bank is better than TD Bank based on the parameters that they're considering, that's really the job. And again, there's no magic bullet, there's no one way of doing it, and everybody's going to have a different opinion. You can ask five analysts or five portfolio managers what their favorite bank is, and you might get five different answers. But they're paid to come up with an opinion and then execute on that opinion by putting a position into the portfolio that reflects their outlook on that particular security.
Colin White
James, this brings to mind the way you like to end many of our arguments when we get to a certain point where we've agreed to disagree and you point out to me it takes two sides to make a market. So you're talking about analysts disagreeing on a particular topic. Let me ask you kind of a completely unfair question. When you're listening to somebody to explain their process and walk you through how they do things, how successful are you at predicting the likely success that they're going to have to exceed however they're benchmarking themselves? Are you able to tell by listening to someone explain how they go about what they're doing and from that be able to figure out their likelihood of success? Or is there a complete disconnect there?
James Gauthier
Very good question, Colin. I would say that it is difficult but it's not impossible. That's one input in the decision making framework when you're looking at funds. I would say there's very little evidence that suggests that anybody can on an XA at the basis, which means in advance, select a manager that will outperform a benchmark or competitor while in advance. It's very difficult to do. All we can do is assess. And I like to use a framework called the five Ps where we talk about, what is the portfolio manager's investment process? What is their philosophy? Who are the people involved? What does their historical performance look like? And last out simply looking at one, three, five years, but relative performance, volatility, these sorts of characteristics. What's going on in the portfolio? What are the policies from a compliance and their oversight standpoint at the firm?
So no, just by hearing somebody do a pitch, I don't think you're going to have enough information to make a decision. And it's interesting because in the mutual fund world, a big part of what a portfolio manager does is also marketing, because after all mutual funds are sold to retail investors by salespeople. We're putting the client portfolios by portfolio managers such as yourselves, but marketing is a big part of this overall game. I've been to presentations, I know you guys have too, where a PM gets up there, they're super charismatic, super excited, super compelling. A lot of times those PMs have a terrific following just based on the cult of personality.
I've seen other portfolio managers that fund companies try to avoid putting on stage and that may impact their flows. But I'm not going to say that simply because you have charisma and you're a good presenter, I don't think that inherently means that you're going to have an ability to outperform. Just as I don't think you are sort of totaled in your shell and you don't want to get on stage, that doesn't mean you're destined to underperform. So presentation style, that's part of it. I think there's got to be some substance and some meat to the conversation. And I do think that's one part of the equation, but that's not the whole story.
Josh Sheluk
Yeah. Again, you've talked to more portfolio managers than just about anybody I know. And just to give some more background for our listeners, I'll call you the master in my own words of investment funds research for the last 20 years. And Colin is laughing hysterically right now. But in having spoken with all these different managers, James, are there certain tendencies that you look to that tend to lead to ones that are more successful or certain tendencies that you look to that are sort of notorious for being red flags or something that leads to them being not successful?
James Gauthier
Yeah. No, we didn't want to make this a passive versus active conversation, because we are talking about active management. And Colin, I appreciate the laughter. I don't know if you're laughing at me or if that was something else, but I'll take the title of master, Josh, if you want me to. We want to make sure that an active manager has an ability to be active and that they can express other active opinions in the portfolio. So if you buy a portfolio, it's got 200 names and the top 10 names are the same as the benchmark, whether that's the TSX Composite or the S&P 500, and you whittled down even more or go down into what's in the next 20, the next 30 names, and it looks remarkably like the index, well you're probably going to get the index like performance, therefore you're probably better off saving a few basis points and just getting out there and buying an ETF.
So on that basis we like to see portfolio managers who are not afraid to be a little bit different from the benchmark. Certain funds, certain portfolio managers need to adhere to certain risk parameters in terms of whether it's the sector waiting or geographical waiting. Sometimes those things are embedded and those can be important, but we also like to see concentrated portfolios. I think if you are making bets on 25 to 40 names, I think you do have an ability to add value from individual names. If you've got 500 different positions, it's difficult for position number 500 to have much valued.
We also do think fees are a big part of the discussion. Clearly if you've got a fund that has a fee of let's say 0.8% and you've got another fund that's got a fee of 1.4%, well, that's a 60 basis point difference and the 60 basis point hurdle that the manager of that more expensive fund needs to get over just to match the guy who's running or the woman who's running the cheap profile. So I think cost, I think concentration, I think the ability of the manager to express themselves. And we also like managers who are consistent in their approach. I think that's vital.
I think consistency will ensure that you as an investor are getting the experience that you bargain for. And one of the worst things in our industry that we can see as you guys know is something called style drift. So that's when one day you're doing things a certain way and maybe you run into some adversity, things aren't working out the way you want it, and all of a sudden you switch to whatever's working well on the market. More often than not that's something that tends to blow up in that manager's face. Good managers don't style drift. And we try to avoid those managers who do.
Colin White
Sorry James. I was laughing at the perceived ability of Josh to bestow the title of master so easily on somebody else like that. It's really not how I think we should be referring to each other. But anyway, I digress. So how long have you been at this? You must have been doing this for more than 40 years now.
James Gauthier
I think I've been at it for probably 20 plus years.
Colin White
All right. So let's go back through history a little bit. Can you maybe speak to some of the fads that you've watched come and go that were pretty spectacular in their notability for whatever reason? Is there anything... Now, what are your favorites that have come and gone over the last 20 years? I don't know if...
James Gauthier
Yeah. Well Colin, I'm sure you remember as many if not more than I would, given your time in the industry as well. I know Joshua too. But I want to point out, mutual fund managers, they just run the money. It's the fun companies who do the marketing. It's the fun companies who pop on the latest trend that they think might sell, because after all there's an old adage in industry that mutual funds are sold, they're not bought. So you need something to sell, you need some... I think early on in my career... Well, the craziest bubble I've seen is the tech bubble. And around that we saw a number of fun companies launch really sector specific narrowly focused funds that targeted very specific parts of that market.
Today, a lot of the fads that we're seeing generally happen in ETF land, but back then it was mutual funds. So you probably remember the Boomernomics fund or the B2B fund. I'm not going to name the manufacturer. I'm sure you know who he was. But these are very narrow, very focused funds that were targeting a specific trend and they took enough boatload of money. And then those sectors cratered when the Nasdaq self cratered. Some of them lost upwards of 80, 90%. Most of the money was moved out and those funds were closed up shortly thereafter.
Josh Sheluk
James, this show is called Barenaked Money, not partially clothed money. You got to throw it all out there man.
James Gauthier
I don't know who listens. And you never want something like that to get back to you, Josh.
Josh Sheluk
Our listeners can reach out to Colin and I. We'll gladly tell you. We don't have any bridges to burn.
James Gauthier
Look, if you can think of any hot trend in the financial services and financial markets over the last... well, throughout this entire history, there is somebody who was trying to capitalize. Most recently I listened to your podcast around crypto, around Bitcoin. I'm not going to opine on crypto itself, but clearly in the Canadian marketplace we did see a number of participants come to market with the ETF mutual fund, but with the crypto ETFs and mutual funds quickly took in a lot of money. And investors in those things have been burned because all of them came to market when cryptos were at a much higher price than they are now.
So we'll see what happens with that, but I can guarantee you that the next time there is a part of the market that is heating up, you will see manufacturers follow. Although as I did point out, I think most of this trend following this fat following. These days it seems to be focused with the ETF land where you probably don't even have an active manager behind the fund. There's just a basket of securities that are run by some sort of algorithm or model that is designed to give investors exposure to that specific part of the market.
Colin White
Well James, you make a good point. I think this is actually very important for our listeners to differentiate between the marketing and mutual funds and the management mutual funds. Sometimes those get commingled, because again, you do have the good orders out there who can sell their fund as well as manage it, but more often than not it's a marketing group that's putting it together. I mean, I've had conversations with managers where I've brought up some of the things that's being marketed about their funds and they looked at me, the quizzical look, "Where'd that come from?"
I said, "Well, from your brochure. This is what they're saying about your fund. It's not true." And the manager's going, "I've never seen that before." So there can be and there is a disconnect between the marketing of a fund and the actual underlying running of the fund. And that's certainly one of the things we look for in our due diligence as when you talk to the manager, how in control of their process are they? Is this something they figured out six minutes ago or is this something they've been doing for 20 years?
James Gauthier
Yeah.
Colin White
That's normally when you can get away from just the marketing spin on what it is they're doing and why it's great.
James Gauthier
I think portfolio managers, they have a very serious job. And I know most of the ones that I've spoken with over the years take their job very seriously. They have a fiduciary duty. They're overseeing people's retirement funds, people's kids educational funds, people's let's get a boat fund, whatever. It is a serious role just as you guys have a serious role. So I do agree that there could be disconnect from the sales marketing component and from the actual work that these PMs do. And they work hard and I think they've got a significant responsibility.
Josh Sheluk
Circling back to our initial question, James, on, what does a portfolio manager do all day? Over the last 20 or so years, have you seen the role of a portfolio manager, the day to day of a portfolio manager evolve much over that time or are they still kind of doing the same thing that they were 20 years ago?
James Gauthier
Yeah. I think it depends where in the world you're looking, Josh. I tend to focus on... You're playing the [inaudible 00:21:05] along only managers where there aren't a lot of bells and whistles. So we're not talking about quantitative algorithmic traders who are more in edge fund land. The managers I like tend to be managers who look at themselves as business owners buying a basket of individual businesses and really trying to understand the business of the stock that they own. And from that perspective, if you're looking at things that way, not a lot has changed in the last 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years and beyond. That's just fundamental business analysis.
I think one thing you can look to is maybe the tools have changed, maybe the magnitude of the information, the fact that the information out there is now accessible to everyone. So there might have been situations in the seventies or eighties before the internet, before the tremendous access that we all now have. It was so prevalent that certain managers running certain portfolios could get an informational advantage. And I think there is strong evidence that was the case, but that's been wiped away. But no, in terms of fundamentally how portfolio manager does their job or the philosophy they have around how they put portfolio together, I really don't think that's changed in terms of the managers that I tend to look at.
Colin White
All right. So I guess that answers my follow up question. Just to be sure, I want you to turn the rock over anyway. So your comment would be that what makes a successful strategy really hasn't changed very much in the last, call it 20, 25 years other than with the potential of access to information being a little bit more democratic now than it may have been 20 years ago?
James Gauthier
Yeah. I don't think so, Colin. I think there is that consistency. I think having that consistency is good. When we're looking at managers, we want to ensure, again, consistency and process, consistency and philosophy, build the framework, maybe tweak it around the edges and refine it. But fundamentally, a business person buying a business, which again is sort of my preferred way of looking at portfolio managers, I don't think anything has changed in a long time if ever about how that's done.
Colin White
So we should ignore anything that's new and shiny because it's all bad. Is that what I'm getting from this conversation?
James Gauthier
No. I mean, a gold bar is shiny and that's something bad I wouldn't mind having right now, but I guess it depends. It depends, Colin.
Colin White
Well, fair enough.
Josh Sheluk
The informational advantage, it's a really interesting one because I think most firms that we've seen be successful over the last little while are the ones that have taken that data and implemented technology in a way that allows them to use the data really effectively.
James Gauthier
Yeah. I think there's been a proliferation of funds which are funds that look at various fundamental factors around a company or various factors related to house of security trades or the overall market trades. A lot of these algorithmic funds or quantitative funds kind of look at the same things. Some would argue that if you see big market upswings or big market downswings, well, those are being exacerbated by these quantitative funds. Sometimes some of the factors that these quantitative funds are looking at are exploited to the point where they just disappear.
So I do think we have a pretty efficient marketplace overall where if there is some sort of advantage, it's going to get arbitrage away probably today quicker than it ever has been. There are some other legendary funds out there. There's this one fund called the Renaissance Medallion fund which historically has generated returns that would knock your socks off. And they've got dozens of MIT PhDs and they look at things from a very different perspective than your simple quant fund. And this is one of the rare exceptions where the returns are so astronomical and so out of reach that you need to wonder what they're doing.
Josh, I know you and I have read the same book about the founder of that firm, James Simons, and he built a pretty remarkable business. He's a mathematician by trade. And again they were able to find certain nuances in the market that other investors weren't able to find. As a result they generated returns that you could argue are probably better than any other fund in history. I think this is a rare one off anomaly. Certainly not the norm, but running a fund from a quantitative perspective is just a different way to skin the gap.
Josh Sheluk
Yeah. Your point about all this is really, what is your edge? You have to ask the question, what is your edge? What do you know that the market doesn't already know? And we've said this multiple times, if you've read something in the Global Mail this morning, well, that's already known information. The market already knows that and it's already been priced into the market. I had somebody ask me the other day, "Well, what about L&G? I heard that Trudeau and Germany are signing some agreements so Canada can sell liquified natural gas to Germany." Okay. That's true, but everybody kind of already knows that.
And by the way, I don't think we've actually figured out how we're going to get it over there. But to invest based off of something that's public knowledge, that everybody has probably already factored into their equations is not going to help you get ahead. As you said, James, these folks, whether it's quantitative or meeting with management or a business owner's approach, they're always trying to identify something that is not accurately priced in by the market as a whole.
James Gauthier
Yeah. And I think the idea of an informational edge is something that is more and more difficult to achieve because everyone's got the information. You said that. I think the managers that I tend to focus on, the ones that I tend to gravitate towards are the ones who they'll use time arbitrage. So they'll say, look, I don't know anything more than the analyst out the street or the other portfolio manager over there, but what I'm looking at business A, I know that business A is going to be a much, much bigger business five years from now. So that's based on my own analysis, that's my opinion based on my educated assessment of the current financials of the company, the roadmap that the management team has laid out for me, where the secular trends of that industry are going.
I can also assess the valuation of that company, and based on the price of that particular stock, it seems to make sense that I would want to buy it today. And you know what, I'm not worried about where it's going to be a quarter from now. And if it's down a year from now and everything else is in place, maybe I'll buy more. But I can tell you in five years it's going to be much bigger company. And that's the approach that I think a lot of the best portfolio managers out there are going to tend to take.
Colin White
James, when you're analyzing, and let's stick in the active space just to simplify the conversation, and you have a portfolio manager who's outperformed for an extended period of time, and then all of a sudden they're out of favor. Typically, we've seen that happen where there could be something where marijuana is going through the market and causing outsized returns in a very renown sector. And some managers will stay away from that because it doesn't fit their process and things of that nature. I would assume that you would agree it's fairly reliable that an active manager will go through periods of looking dumb or not in step with what else is going on in the overall market. What's the start there? Do you agree with that statement?
James Gauthier
Yeah. I think you're always going to see a reversion to the mean. I can only think of one portfolio manager who outperformed year in and year out and that was Bernie Madoff, and we all know what happened. Yeah. I think managers like the market are going to have ups and downs, managers are going to have periods of relative to the market, periods of outperformance, periods of underperformance. So all that we can do as individuals who assess managers and I know you guys do the same is, have conviction around why you selected a manager. And in periods of under performance go back to why you picked that manager, examine if those characteristics are still in place, and if they still are, you got to hold up.
Colin White
Okay. Just so I can write this down, for how long? Sure dodged a tough question.
James Gauthier
I'm not dodging the question, but I'll go back to answer A. If everything is still in order, everything still makes sense, and there's still an underperformance relative to... I mean, you got to make sure you're looking at the right measuring stick as well. There's been a lot of talk recently about the idea of value versus growth. So the growth style, the chronical growth style, and this is a whole other podcast itself, outperformed for probably eight to 10 years consecutively. And those value sectors, whether must energy or financials, they were sucking wind over the same period. Then we saw a massive rotation into value and growth stocks have all underperformed for the most part.
I mean, a stock like Zoom is now cheaper than it was before the pandemic, Peloton. But these are names that were spiking on prospects around growth and now all of a sudden they are... Well, they've reverted. So someone who was a growth manager had a nice run for a good amount of time, and that growth manager has probably underperformed the broader market. Very recently have they underperformed a growth benchmark. I mean, that's probably the more appropriate way to look at this particular case. You got to make your own assessment based on that, but when you say how long, I think again, if everything is in place, if you're your original thesis for why you supported that manager is still there and that manager fits within an overall broader portfolio for your clients, that I think you need to be patient.
Colin White
Yeah. And I think you're alluding to something that is very important that we believe very deeply and it's like, you don't bet on one horse. There are different styles that are effective at different moments in time and if you properly diversify your portfolio, something's always going to be disappointing to you.
James Gauthier
Exactly.
Colin White
That's just a natural outcome of putting together the right portfolio.
James Gauthier
Well look, a portfolio manager's job... I know you guys are portfolio managers, but somebody who's managing a mutual fund, their job is to put together a diversified portfolio of stocks that meets an objective, whereas what you guys do is you look at the various securities that are available to you and construct portfolios that are appropriate based on the specific needs of your clients. You're using more than one security, you're using many, and it has an offset effect. When one name is working, hopefully there's something else in that portfolio that is. And that's really what a balanced and diversified portfolio is designed to do.
Josh Sheluk
Well James, you get thumbs up all around. You mentioned there that another podcast is in order. I'm sure we have a lot more to talk about, but we really appreciate you joining today and sharing some of your many insights with us. It was very valuable. And for our listeners, I sent a link to James ahead of time and said, "James gets naked with Colin and Josh." So we're just happy you showed up with close on today because we weren't sure.
James Gauthier
Well guys, I really appreciate the time. I've enjoyed it. I look forward to hearing future podcasts and I'm always happy to jump in and help if you need.
Announcer
This information has been prepared by White LeBlanc Wealth Planners, who is a portfolio manager for iA Private Wealth. Opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the portfolio manager only and do not necessarily reflect those of iA Private Wealth Inc. IA Private Wealth Inc is a member of the Canadian Investor Protection Fund and the Investment Industry Regulatory Organization of Canada. IA Private Wealth is a trademark and business name under which iA Private Wealth Inc operates.
Colin White
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