The Man Who Destroys People For Fun: Inside the Mind of Lazarus Lake

This Man Destroys People for Fun | Lazarus Lake on Endurance, Suffering & Why Most People Quit

📝 Episode Description / Show Notes:
In this episode, Sam Penny sits down with the legendary Lazarus Lake—the mysterious mastermind behind the Barkley Marathons and the man who’s redefined human limits through races that most never finish.

You’ll hear the raw and unfiltered philosophy of a man who builds races designed to break people. Laz opens up about the psychology of suffering, the myth of motivation, and why the finish line is always further than you think.

We talk about:

• How Laz engineered events to reveal who people really are
• Why most people don’t quit when it gets hard—they quit before it starts
• The "ordinary people doing extraordinary things" philosophy
• Why he believes "the purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things"
• The real reason behind the infamous Barkley Marathons' design
• What he thinks about achievement, failure, and human potential
• And why, despite it all, he’s never run his own races

This episode is more than a conversation—it’s a challenge to everything you think you know about endurance, resilience, and what you’re capable of.

🎧 Listen if you’ve ever:

• Wondered what separates those who finish from those who falter
• Felt stuck at the starting line
• Wanted to push yourself further—but didn’t know how
• Needed a wake-up call on what it means to be truly brave

🔥 Quotable Moments:

“People always quit because of the pain they imagine—not the pain they experience.”
 “The goal is not the finish. The goal is what the journey demands of you.”
 “Comfort is a great liar. And it always wins—unless you know how to fight it.”

🔗 Resources & Mentions:

• Barkley Marathons Documentary
• Laz’s race calendar
• Sam Penny’s coaching for bold achievers → sampenny.com

📌 Subscribe to the podcast:
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📱 Follow Sam:
Instagram / LinkedIn / TikTok → @90dayswithsam
🎙 Podcast HQ: sampenny.com/brave

Creators and Guests

Host

Sam Penny

Sam Penny is an adventurer, entrepreneur, and keynote speaker who lives by the mantra “Say YES! to the Impossible.” From swimming the English Channel in winter to building and selling multi-million-dollar companies, Sam thrives on pushing boundaries in both business and life. As host of Why’d You Think You Could Do That?, he sits down with ordinary people who have done extraordinary things, uncovering the mindset, resilience, and bold decisions that made it possible — and showing listeners why their own impossible is closer than they think.

Guest

Lazarus Lake

Gary Cantrell — better known as Lazarus Lake — is the mastermind behind some of the world’s most brutal endurance events, including the Barkley Marathons and Big’s Backyard Ultra. With a wry smile and a knack for designing races that push runners far beyond their limits, Laz has built a cult following of athletes willing to suffer for glory. On Why’d You Think You Could Do That?, he shares the philosophy behind creating challenges that seem impossible, why failure is part of the experience, and what it takes to keep going when every instinct says stop.

What is Why'd You Think You Could Do That??

They’ve swum oceans, scaled mountains, launched empires, and shattered expectations. But before they did any of it, someone, maybe even themselves, thought: “You can’t do that.”

Hosted by Sam Penny, Why’d You Think You Could Do That? dives into the minds of people who said “screw it” and went for it anyway. From adventurers and elite athletes to wildcard entrepreneurs and creative renegades, each episode unpacks the one question they all have in common:

“Why'd you think you could do that?”

If you’re wired for more, haunted by big ideas, or just sick of playing it safe, this is your show.

Sam Penny (00:00)
Some people run marathons, some dream of crossing a continent on foot. But then there are the rare mythical figures who don't just test the limits, they redraw the map entirely. Just imagine inventing a race so brutal that most years not a single soul finishes. Picture creating an event so shrouded in secrecy with rules so twisted that ultra runners call it the holy grail of suffering.

And while most of us would struggle with one back to back challenge, this man has made it his life's work to push others, willingly or not, to the ragged edge of human possibility. He's masterminded the Barkley Marathons, a race so notorious, even the world's best often get lost before the first sunrise. He's walked across America, measured pain in miles and laughter in the tears of those who attempt his events.

To some, he's a legend, to others, he's a sadist. But to everyone in the endurance world, he's an icon, equal parts philosopher, prankster, and architect of the impossible. Today on Why Do Think You Could Do That, we go inside the mind of the one and only Gary Cantrell, AKA Lazarus Lake. Gary, thank you very much for joining me today.

Laz (01:18)
it's my pleasure. Appreciate you asking me.

Sam Penny (01:21)
Now we, we spoke, I interviewed you back in 2019. I think it was when we spoke about, the backyard ultras, which is just one of, I think one of the best race formats invented on the planet. But, before we dive into sort of all the sadistic stuff that you've created, I want to go back to your roots. Now what first drew you into the world of ultra running?

Laz (01:45)
because I was too slow to be successful at shorter distances. My athletic career has been a long series of failures. Originally I wanted to be the greatest linebacker that ever played, but I only weighed about, what would it be, 30 kilos?

when I was in high school.

Sam Penny (02:06)
30 kilos.

That puts you in sort the weight bracket of maybe a five year old.

Laz (02:07)
Yeah, I couldn't even wrestle.

Yes, in the in the my freshman year there were two seventh grade girls that were smaller than me and that was it. I did ultimately grow but it was too late for playing football so running was the only the only sport where my size was not a problem. The problem was that I wasn't very fast.

So I ran track and cross country.

Sam Penny (02:35)
So I read that you're doing about 150,

170 miles every week when you're in college.

Laz (02:43)
not every week, but I, yeah, I did the long periods of the 140 and 150 mile weeks trying to train for races. If you could accomplish it just with training volume, I would have been really good.

Sam Penny (03:00)
Fair enough. Now,

you're also an accountant, which is not something that often gets aired. does someone as like, maybe, maybe if we go with the, with the stage name of Lazarus Lake, who's the, perhaps the sadistic side, and then you've got Gary Cantrell, the accountant, how did those two relate to each other?

Laz (03:23)
I don't see a conflict. Running is a sport that's very much involved with numbers and I like numbers.

I figure I'm pretty much a standard average accountant.

Sam Penny (03:33)
Fair enough.

just the average accountant retired now and now am I right in saying that you've also handed over the reins to the Barkley Marathons?

Laz (03:45)
We pretty much so yeah, we've been making the changeover for some years. Carl has been picking stuff up and that way when you realize it one day I won't be able to do it and that if we just made a sudden change it would be a big jolt.

in this way just gradually he's been taking pieces over and I've been letting them go and we had to break him up. He had some bad habits, had sympathy and empathy and all these qualities that you just have to get rid of.

Sam Penny (04:22)
Yeah, because you certainly for the races that you have created, empathy is not on the part of the race director.

Laz (04:31)
Actually, you look at them as just really kind of fun things to do, things that I enjoy doing.

Sam Penny (04:33)
So once we look.

I think they're absolutely fantastic. And let's talk about, let's talk about some of the races that you've created. We've got, and I love how you do this. The last annual vol state 500 K you've got the last annual heart of the South, which you've got coming up. We've got bigs backyard. Obviously the Barkley marathons, a race for the ages. When I look at the common thread across all of these Laz, I kind of think.

Laz (04:41)
There's some discomfort involved.

Sam Penny (05:07)
Is this not just a sadistic race director, but perhaps one of the laziest race directors, because there's no support crew allowed in a lot of this stuff. You basically, a lot of these events are so long. And what you do is you for one of them, uh, for the last annual heart of the South, you put them on a bus, take them about 300, 350 miles away, give them a map and say, see in 10 days.

Laz (05:21)
Thank

Yeah, well they'll get there, some will get there quicker. We're leaving on the heart of the South tomorrow. So that's been, that's been really hectic and crazy today getting stuff at the last minute ready to go and trying to contain myself until I guess not tomorrow night, but the next night.

the next afternoon when we arrive at the starting point and finally the runners get their maps and get to see where they're going to get to go. It's been hard to sit on it because we've planned a lot of really fun adventures.

Sam Penny (06:17)
In your mind, what do you class as fun?

Laz (06:19)
Something where you have to sit back and think, you know, how am going to handle this? I think there's a transition period in the transcons has a good example when you start out doing those kind of long journey runs and you can't always scout everything perfectly. So you get out there and you get stuck and you

You know, you've got to figure out how to get past this obstacle. There's a road on the map that doesn't exist or a bridge has been removed and there's a river in your way. And you think, God, how am I ever going to get past this? Because detours when you're on foot, it's not like in a car. A detour could cost you a day or more.

But when the day comes that you hit that obstacle and you say, get out the map and you can see the, feel the blood coursing in your veins. Cause you think this is it. This is game time. This is when I get to show my stuff. The challenges become something you look forward to.

Sam Penny (07:24)
So how many people are turning up for Heart of the South?

Laz (07:30)
We had a hundred and we had room for a hundred and twenty and we had a hundred and twenty entered the last week has been pretty hard on the on the field because It's the month of fear the month before the race like that people

I don't know, they let fear creep in and it eats away at them and they come up with reasons not to be there.

Sam Penny (07:58)
So, Laz, before we jump into the Barclay Marathons, because everyone always wants to hear about that, because it's so intriguing, what kind of people are attracted to the events that you host?

Laz (08:10)
I guess people that people that like challenges, people like to solve problems, people that like to be on the edge and face the real possibility of failure.

Sam Penny (08:21)
Do you think that they're brave people? Do you think that they're a little bit deranged? What is it with these people?

Laz (08:27)
⁓

No, it's...

It's, like I was talking about earlier, when you get, when you're doing a long journey and you get somewhere and you're just, you're stuck, there's a bridge out or something and you can't go on. And then the blood gets pumping and you, it's game time. It's time to.

fall back on all your skills, have to really be performing at a high level. I like that. Coaching was the same way.

Sam Penny (09:04)
All right. Let's talk about the Barkley Marathons. What inspired you to create a race that's just so extreme, so enigmatic, and now has become one of the most iconic races on the calendar of sport, I would say, across the planet.

Laz (09:22)
It wasn't what wasn't expected to turn out quite that way. It was supposed to be really challenging and at the edge of what people could do. And it just seems like maybe because it's gone on for so long that it's really caught on to people's imagination.

Sam Penny (09:39)
So.

And why do you think that is Gary?

Laz (09:42)
because the runners are stripped of all of their modern stuff and just thrown out there against the wilderness, which I think everyone would sort of like to do that, but they won't hardly let you do that anymore, at the very least.

that you have to carry a tracker and the runners at the Barclay will tell you even though they say, the tracker makes no difference because they can't use it to see where they are. But they know that someone knows where they are. And in the Barclay, they leave camp and we know where they are when they show back up.

Sam Penny (10:23)
And the simplicity of all of your races, you know, basically go out there and have an adventure, explore, here's a map, good luck. I hope you come back in one piece, quite often not. The simplicity of your races, do you think that that is something that has created the Lazarus Lake?

mystique, because they're not overly complicated races at all. do think it's that simplicity that has really made so much of what you do iconic?

Laz (10:58)
I don't know, you always want to avoid, you're looking for ways to build a challenge, but you don't want it to be contrived. I think people like the races because they're just real. I it is what it says it is.

Sam Penny (11:20)
So if we look at the Barclay Marathons, think, what is it about? 20 people have finished it.

And it was always designed as a race that nobody could finish. And if they did, were, they were a next level human being last year. What was it? Four people finished.

Laz (11:38)
A year before last, there was five people that finished. There was just a lot of different factors that all kind of converged on the same year. And it just turned out that way. The average is still about a person every other year.

Sam Penny (11:58)
So how does it feel to have five people finishing that year?

Laz (12:03)
Well, it was exciting for each one of them. They all earned it. I think most of them had, of course you had John and Jared who are really experienced at it and Jasmine who'd been there several times

it wasn't like people just came out of nowhere and finished it the first try. you always have a number of people who have a legitimate shot at finishing and then something happens. And last year was the race that not all those things happened.

Sam Penny (12:40)
So when we spoke back in 2019, I think it was, we actually spoke about females in the ultra world and how we're seeing them really almost on a level playing field with the guys. And in some of the races, know, such as Bigs Backyard, they're able to step up and really go hard. And in Barclays, we saw Jasmine Paris come through as the first female ever to finish it.

Now she's an unbelievable athlete had been to the Barclays on a number of occasions. When you look at her, what do you see?

Laz (13:16)
She's a hell of an athlete watching that race and seeing the game plan that she had to lay out. It was in a lot of ways kind of a suicidal game plan. She put herself in a position.

She had the knowledge and the experience to say, is what I have to do to be able to finish. And she knew going in that it was going to be a really heavy price to pay and that there was going to be a lot of the race where she had to.

hang on when people normally wouldn't hang on. She ran the final section from the fire tower in on the fifth loop three hours faster than the guy who won. Three hours. And that's what it took for her to finish. I mean, we looked at it and you knew it was not possible. But she did it anyway.

Sam Penny (14:06)
Wow.

and making the cutoff time with about a minute and a half to spare.

Laz (14:20)
Less than a second a mile. That's cutting it close.

Sam Penny (14:24)
Wow.

It's amazing.

Laz (14:27)
And of course, she also had the knowledge and experience that even though the race changes from the early time on it, in the early hours, it might look like you have a lot to spare. But when you can do the math in your head, project it out to the finish, she knew it was that close the whole time.

Sam Penny (14:49)
if we look at Jasmine and these other finishers, these other athletes who have turned up year after year after year, what is it about these people in particular who keep turning up after they've experienced it once, twice, maybe three times, but they keep turning up? What is it do you think in these people that makes them turn up?

even though they know that it is hell on earth.

Laz (15:18)
you

Because most people take multiple attempts. So you come and fail and analyze what you did wrong and whether it's your training or the gear you carried, how you handled different problems.

And you always think that next time you'll get it.

Sam Penny (15:39)
now I want to change tack Gary. I want to actually talk about you and some of your personal endeavors because a couple of times you've decided to go on a bloody long walk.

Laz (15:53)
Yeah, I like to go on. Well, it was more fun when I could run, but since I can't run now I just walk.

Sam Penny (16:00)
And so 2018, you did transcontinental walk across the US from, I think, Newport, Rhode Island to Oregon.

Laz (16:09)
Yeah, Newport, Oregon, Newport to Newport.

Sam Penny (16:13)
Newport to Newport. Now, firstly, why? Why did you think that this was going to be a good idea?

Laz (16:21)
That's the question I never can understand. I mean, you've seen the map. There's the continent and there's an ocean on one side and an ocean on the other. Don't you feel kind of compelled to cross that distance?

you

Sam Penny (16:39)
when you when

you actually put it in those terms, it does make it sound quite alluring and just wanting to see what it's going to feel like. I swam the English Channel back in 2018. You know, swimming from England to France, it is just this, I wonder what that's going to feel like. Is that the kind of same thing? What what's it going to feel like to walk across the US?

Laz (17:01)
Well, I've done a lot of journey runs in my life because I really enjoy them. And so I had some idea, but I'd never been out for more than a couple of weeks before. And of course that lasted four months. And it's just an unbelievable experience.

Sam Penny (17:16)
Wow.

Laz (17:21)
There is so much to absorb and so much to learn as you go along that it's just this intense educational experience. And you still, even now after all this time, and I think about it, you think about walking in upstate New York, crossing the Taconic Mountain, or then you think about crossing the coastal range or the...

the Cascades out in Oregon and you think that was the same walk. It's crazy.

Sam Penny (17:52)
Where?

And being Gary Cantrell or Lazarus Lake, there must have been throughout your whole journey, a lot of people wanting to come out and meet you and take you in and feed you, all those kinds of things. you must be exposed to just a beautiful part of the community and seeing people's openness and warmness.

Laz (17:54)
All

Sam Penny (18:18)
as they welcomed you throughout your four-month journeys.

Laz (18:21)
It doesn't matter if they're people that you know or people that know you every person who's done a transcon would tell you if you want to renew your faith in humans do a transcon because that people are nice and supportive and and

Sam Penny (18:35)
Yeah.

Laz (18:39)
generous. It's not at all like you are led to believe. Meeting the different people along the way. Now the ones that come out, it's mostly when you're in a population center. When you're crossing the vast empty spaces out west, most of the time you get to be by yourself.

Sam Penny (18:58)
Do you like that solitude?

Laz (18:59)
I'm okay with alone time. I just listen to the voices in my head. As long as they're not saying, kill Sam Penny, kill Sam Penny. If I hear that, I'll, I'll, I'll silence that one.

Sam Penny (19:05)
Fair enough.

⁓ ha, jeez.

Yeah, thank

you very much. doing these big endurance events that you've done throughout your life, what are some real favorite parts or, really just unforgettable stories from those moments?

Laz (19:28)
You just have to get in a conversation to have those pop up. There are so many stories. Every day is a different story. I just finished walking across the high plains, which was 405 miles in 17 days.

And if you don't know the high plains, they're up, around 2000 meters elevation. And it's just wide and flat. And it looks like it's completely empty. And I always wondered before that there were roads and stuff. How did people find their way across?

because it looks like it's featureless. But when you're there on the ground and you're actually walking, it actually has a lot of terrain. You can tell where you are and you can see the lay of the land and the way things are going and find your way.

And I had wanted to experience crossing the high plains like it was for the pioneers, where you're going at foot speed, you're only going so many miles a day. And after a few weeks or a couple of weeks, you start really looking.

and looking for the mountains, because you know sooner or later you'll see them on the horizon until one day you're studying it and you think, I think I see the top of a mountain. I'm pretty sure I see the top of a mountain. Maybe it's a cloud. And you have to walk until the next day when you finally you get to a point because you only see it when you go through the high spots.

Sam Penny (20:59)
Yeah

Laz (21:12)
And by the next day, you know, that's a mountain. That's definitely a mountain. Turns out it was Pike's Peak. And then as the days go by, over the next four days, you got closer until you could see more and more mountains until now they go all along the horizon.

And it's just different. people, you could do that in a car. You see the first little bit of white and you think, that a mountain or is that a cloud? But in five minutes, you know, it's not like watching it all day.

Sam Penny (21:45)
Yeah, it sounds absolutely mystical.

Laz (21:47)
And I learned.

I learned something about vision that I've been really interested here recently and how vision works because it's all created in your brain. And your eyes are just an input device that collects data points, but your brain makes what you see. And studying the horizons, staring and looking for the mountains, I think you have time-lapse vision.

If I, when I, you just look and look and look and then you can start to be able to make out the top of that mountain which turned out to be Pike's Peak. But if you look away and look back you can't see it again because there's not enough photons hitting your eyes from the mountain at one time to see it.

But your brain is, it's like your brain is condensing, studying that horizon until it can finally collect enough data to give you a picture. If that makes any sense.

Sam Penny (22:50)
It certainly makes sense sort of, you know, sort of just low data mode and it just needs a whole lot more data just to keep hitting the back of the retina and then all of a sudden the image appears.

Laz (22:56)
you

So it was just a really, it was a really fun experience going through that and then seeing them approach. I looked forward to it and when I walked across in 2018, California was on fire. And...

Sam Penny (23:17)
Yeah.

Laz (23:18)
So I didn't see the mountains until I was in them because you couldn't see anything but the smoke every day. But this time I got the pleasure of searching and searching until I saw the first glimpses of a mountain.

Sam Penny (23:33)
And then over there.

Laz (23:34)
And then they were there. I've got to go back. I had to come back and do the HOTS and the VOL state. And then I'm going to go cross those mountains. I hope.

Sam Penny (23:43)
It's, you

know, some of the Australia like the US is so vast, it's so big has terrain that is so very different. And it's one of those things that people don't even think about. People don't even think about, I'm going to walk across the country. I'm going to walk through the mountains for however long it's going to take me. People just don't leave.

life behind and take that moment to test not just their physical sense but also their mental sense.

Laz (24:17)
I figured the only reason people don't do it is because that it takes so much time and resources. It's kind of hard to justify it because it's just a pleasure thing. But it's. It's certainly well worth doing.

Sam Penny (24:34)
Yeah, it certainly is. I want to talk more about the endurance side of things because I think that we can learn a lot from the people that you've seen compete in your races. Is there one story across everything that you've done that really stands out?

Laz (24:53)
Besides Jasmine.

Sam Penny (24:56)
Besides Jasmine and

it look for anybody listening to this podcast, look up just Jasmine Paris. She was part of a documentary that featured her that came out last year. Absolutely captivating in her determination and grit to finish the Barkley Marathons and to be the first woman to finish. So okay, apart from

Jasmine because that's well documented and people can go watch it. And I want everybody to go watch it. What are what across everything? Is there one story that really stands out?

Laz (25:30)
Well, you know, everybody's got a story and you really over time you see the people at the different levels. I enjoy seeing the people for whom it's new. They'll say, know, I'm only doing this. I'm only running a marathon and you've seen people run.

10 marathons in a row or more. But there's something special when it's new to people. I think it helps keep it fresh for me to see people that are just exploring that new territory for the first time when they are going further than they've ever been.

Which is kind of why I like the backyard so much because you have lots of people going further than they've ever been.

Sam Penny (26:21)
in a, in a format, which I believe, I, cause I've also done, the backyard ultra and the format is very easy for people to get their head around, run 4.1 miles every hour. And then at the start of the next hour, you turn up and do another 4.1 miles and the next hour, and you just keep doing that until you can't do it any, any longer. And it's.

Laz (26:44)
Thank

Sam Penny (26:48)
It is one of those things that we're often too afraid to get out of our comfort zone. We're too afraid to go and try something new. And, that's why I love, the backyard ultra format. I'm not a runner, but I can do 4.1 miles in an hour. Yeah, sure. It takes me 50, 52 minutes or something like that. And I don't have a lot of rest time like some of the fast guys, but

Laz (27:05)
Yeah.

Sam Penny (27:12)
It doesn't matter, does it? Because you're still on the same start line as as them. You're both experiencing something new, new distances, new levels of fatigue, mental hardship, except for obviously the poor guy who wins, who never finds his limit.

Laz (27:32)
It

And you're always tied with the leader.

Sam Penny (27:36)
Yeah, you are. Every time you step up for the next hour.

Laz (27:37)
If you can keep doing

yards, you can be tied with the world champions. So the 52 minutes a lap, I think that's about what Harvey averaged when he won the individual world championship last time.

We took the runners in the field because we've got all this electronic timekeeping stuff that it's not necessary, but it's nice. And we figured out everybody's average lap time. And out of the top 10 finishers, five of them were in the top half and five of them were in the bottom half.

Sam Penny (27:53)
Yeah.

There you go.

Laz (28:18)
and

the winner was in the bottom half of the average lap times. Because it's really just about being willing to get up and go back to the starting line again.

Sam Penny (28:29)
It certainly is. Now, what have you noticed about the people who managed to finish one of your events? What do you think sets them apart? Not just Barclays, but know, Heart of the South and your other races like the Volstate 500.

Laz (28:45)
A lot of it is being able to stay in the moment and not start thinking about the whole event. Just to do what you're doing, where you're doing it and not...

Not get overwhelmed. Certainly for a transcon, that's the big thing. I'm just doing that day and during that day I'm just doing that hour. Never really think about anything more than one hour at a time. And just getting through that hour and that's a...

Sam Penny (29:18)
One step at a time kind

of thing, small steps.

Laz (29:21)
Yeah. Well, you just can't think about it. This, when we were talking about the heart of the South and the number of people who have dropped out here at the end, they've already let the entire race get to them. They haven't even taken the, they haven't even gotten on the bus yet. And yet the thought of how far the finish line is has overwhelmed them.

Sam Penny (29:37)
Hmm.

Laz (29:47)
you just have to be able to live in the moment. do this step.

Sam Penny (29:51)
So Gary, you've creating events that really do test the edge of human capacity. It's certainly not normal. It's very unordinary. I don't think that's a right word. Why do you think you could or should be the person set those limits? Why Gary Cantrell?

Laz (30:11)
I've always been interested in sports and in the mental aspect of it. So I'm just running human experiments and the subjects volunteer for it.

You always wonder how the people learn to do those things. And I think it's been a great benefit to me because when you've seen all of the great performances that I've seen, then you're doing something yourself. It's not fathomable that you would just give up because that's what the people don't do that succeed. They don't give up.

Sam Penny (30:49)
What drives you personally to keep raising the bar and challenging really what others think is possible?

Laz (30:56)
Because there's still lots of stuff I want to do. And I hope in the end that I leave a lot of stuff not finished. I don't want to finish my bucket list. And I found it interesting talking to someone the other day who said, well, that was what they look forward to in life. They wanted to get all the things on their bucket list done so they could just sit back.

And I assume wait to die. No, there's always something else.

Sam Penny (31:23)
What's in your bucket list?

What's in your bucket list?

Laz (31:29)
Well, I'm trying to finish the transcon that failed. I really had a pretty big decline between 65 and 70. And I overestimated what I could do to finish a transcon in a single effort. I think I could have done it if I had enough time, but I didn't have enough time. So I had to.

Sam Penny (31:43)
Yeah.

Laz (31:50)
stop and that's why I went out and did the Great Plains. I'm doing the rest of it in pieces, fitting it around my schedule. But when that's done, already tickling around in my head is thinking, I just, when I went into Colorado, I believe was my, either my 30th or 31st state that I've connected them all with a continuous string of footprints.

Sam Penny (32:13)
Hmm?

Laz (32:13)
So I'm thinking, could I get all 48 of the lower 48? And your mind starts going over and thinking, ah, yeah, the cool things that you would have to do. Have to walk across the Dakotas and Montana, across the mountains in Idaho and then Washington State.

And you have to connect those routes up with other things you've run just so that because there's something wrong with my brain, I want it when I look at the map not to be obvious where the ends of different efforts were just when I get to the oceans. But I'm thinking I've gone north to south once and I'm about two thirds of the way through going east to west.

Sam Penny (32:50)
Yeah.

Laz (32:58)
And now I just have little bunches of states. 2028 is the 100th anniversary of Andy Payne's Transcon run. And I had always, I thought as a, that as a fantasy dream run, would walk, would retrace his route when it was the 100th anniversary.

But that's still three more years away and I can't go all the way across in one effort. The weather will catch me. So I'm thinking I can go from his statue in foil to go there from Los Angeles and do half his walk.

Sam Penny (33:38)
Yeah.

Laz (33:38)
your brain bubbles over with new stuff to do.

Sam Penny (33:39)
So, go.

I love it. Gary, I want to talk about your legacy, a bit of reflection, but also a bit of bravery packed into there. Thinking about your races, what impact do you hope your races have on runners and the broader community?

Laz (33:59)
you want people to find greatness in themselves. That's the race director's job is to provide the venue. It's not really about the race director. It's about the athlete to.

give people a chance to find that something special in themselves.

So hopefully that with Carl, with the Barkley and that the backyards that lots of people have picked up and these different runs that people will continue to do them and continue to find that magic.

it's a real it's a real unique feeling when you do do something and you sit back and look because we're usually are if we're fair we're our own harshest critics and you look at and say you know that was really pretty damn good

Sam Penny (34:53)
It is nice to have that reflection moment. And I think sort of too often we don't reflect on our day or, the last year or something like that, or an event that we just did. We are always sort of, okay, what's next? What's next? What next? But when you get to sit back and reflect and also that feeling of gratitude comes in as well that how lucky am I that I could go and do that.

or witness that.

Laz (35:20)
yeah, it's, we are lucky to live in a time when we can do these things for the sake of exploring inner space as opposed to just trying to stay alive. And I think that's what it is, three million years of evolution, we have evolved to face challenges. And...

We didn't used to have to seek out challenges because it was a challenge just to stay alive.

Sam Penny (35:46)
And now we seek out adventure to feel alive.

Laz (35:50)
He he.

Because that's when you're the most alive. When you hit that moment, you say, I'm stuck. The road that was supposed to be here is not here. Get out the map and you can feel the blood pumping. Or as a coach on game night, you knew you were playing a hard opponent.

probably weren't supposed to win. And you just, can taste the air. You're just so alive in those moments of challenge.

Sam Penny (36:21)
So Gary, thinking about all the feats that you have personally achieved, like your trans continental walks, those kinds of things, tell me, and honestly, how have those experiences really changed your outlook on life?

Laz (36:36)
I don't know if they've changed my outlook on life, but

They've certainly enriched it. Just the wealth of the things I've seen and the place I've been and to feel the different parts. It's like the Great Plains. People drive across it because they say it's 400 miles and it's flat. They want to get across it as fast as they can.

But there's a lot to see and more than you think if you're just not moving too fast. And then to really absorb just the awesomeness and the majesty of this enormous space. Going through it any way other than on foot, you would never really get to truly experience it.

But that's what people do. They hurry through life. You said it, you were talking about it earlier that people are in such a hurry to get where they're going next that they forget to enjoy where they are now.

Sam Penny (37:36)
Hmm. 100%.

Yeah, I think that we've lost our ability to reflect on what's happening right now and what has happened in the past. That we're always sort of jittery, always ready for the next thing, aren't we?

Laz (37:48)
Thank

So we walked through Memorial Day weekend. So on Friday, you start seeing all this traffic as the day goes on. It's all the people rushing out of work to get off on their Memorial Day holiday faster. And then on Monday afternoon, you have the same phenomenon. It's all the people that have rented this place for the whole weekend.

Sam Penny (38:09)
Hmm.

Laz (38:17)
but now they're trying to get an early start to get home quicker. It's...

Sam Penny (38:22)
Yeah.

Laz (38:23)
they're not milking that for all it was worth.

Sam Penny (38:24)
Yeah.

No, exactly. Now, Laz, I want to move on to our bravery question. Every guest on our podcast gets asked the same question. What does bravery mean to you? And when did you need it most?

Laz (38:43)
I, bravery is hard to define.

Bravery really consists of that also is living in the moment, not doing like the people that are pulling out of the pulling out of races before they start because they've put the whole thing in their head at once instead of just doing what's next in front of them.

doesn't make any sense at all. And I think it's useful every day in everything that you do. You just learn how to approach life in that manner and really extract the most from every minute.

Sam Penny (39:25)
And how about yourself? When have you needed to, you know, put on your brave pants? When have you needed sort of that sense of bravery, most? look, bravery isn't about, saving someone from a burning building. Bravery is making that call, stepping outside your comfort zone. It's sort of, there are these small moments of bravery that

we should really be experiencing every single day. When did you need bravery the most?

Laz (39:54)
I think after we had the first backyard and then it caught on and it kept growing and growing and it reached a point where I thought it would be great to have a world championship. And then you sit back and realize what the hell business does. I'm just some old guy who lives out here in the woods on top of a hill.

How in the hell could I have the audacity to think that I could hold a world championship? Well, I don't really have any, you know, there's no reason I should, but I just, well, you won't know if you don't try. So put it out there and if no one wants to come then.

Sam Penny (40:29)
He

Laz (40:41)
So be it. You won't be any worse off than before. You'll know that it won't work.

Sam Penny (40:47)
If, if nobody turned up to your world champs for bigs backyard, how would you have dealt with that personally?

Laz (40:54)
Well, failure is nothing new. I would have just moved on. I would have, you know, you go through life like the little race car that you, when you were a kid and you would put it on the floor and get the wheels going really fast and let it go. It run into the wall and back up and take off in a new direction. Did you have those?

Sam Penny (41:00)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, of course.

Laz (41:20)
in Australia. So

that's how that's how you live when you hit a wall you back up and go in a new direction.

Sam Penny (41:31)
I like that analogy. It actually works.

Laz (41:35)
It actually works.

Sam Penny (41:36)
Um, well, as we're coming to the end of our show and before we finish, I just want to ask you the brave five sets. It's five questions to really tie us back into some of the amazing things that you've done and also bravery, which is what we talk about here on what do you think you could do that? Tell me what's one unexpected lesson you've learned from creating these races.

Laz (42:03)
Yeah

God. It's all unexpected.

the biggest lessons we've learned is how to put together and analyze how a course is going to run. I, the idea for the backyard came to me in high school, but it took

all these decades of running races and putting on races to figure out how to make the parameters work where the events workable.

Sam Penny (42:32)
Yeah.

Now, Laz, tell me, what's the first thing that runs through your mind when someone finishes the Barclay?

Laz (42:41)
I feel elevated just by being there. When you see the Barkley finish from at the Barkley, you see the whole thing. it's that moment at the finish is that's just the...

the reward at the end. It was watching them earn it piece by piece. know, at the Barclay, when you send people out on the fourth loop and the fifth loop, sometimes you sit and you look at them going down the road and you think, you know, if this was a normal race, I'd be questioning whether or not we should allow them to continue.

And actually in this place at this time you're thinking, yeah, he looks pretty good. He's got a shot.

Sam Penny (43:20)
Ha ha ha.

So when someone does finish, is there ever a sense that, gee, this year it might have been a little bit too easy?

Laz (43:28)
you

No, it's always been hard. I don't think you'll talk to one of the finishers who said, yeah, that year it was just easy. It just wasn't catastrophic.

Sam Penny (43:43)
Not easy, but from

your course setting, do you think, oh, gee, I should have made that one a little bit harder?

Laz (43:52)
No, because it's been a lot of things that go into it that, you know, with the five people a couple of years ago, the weather was perfect, the fuel was perfect. You had a whole lot of people that had gone through that cycle of failures where they were ready and on the edge of finishing.

And they just didn't have all the things happen to them that could have happened.

Sam Penny (44:18)
Hmm.

Laz (44:18)
They didn't make a lot of mistakes. And they also went out in a bunch and they brute forced their way through a lot of it by staying together. Last year, the field was confident and they immediately broke up into a string. And the Barclay was able to pick them off one by one.

Sam Penny (44:39)
Yeah, it's like the Barclay is a monster out there eating, eating every runner up one by one.

Laz (44:45)
Yeah.

I think that the runners would agree with that.

Sam Penny (44:51)
you

Laz (44:52)
You have years when you have a bunch of people that you think are gonna finish this year and then one by one just bizarre shit happens to them and they don't. Or they make one little mistake and it compounds itself.

Sam Penny (45:09)
Now, what do you think is a habit or a mindset that's essential for surviving some of the toughest moments?

Laz (45:17)
The same thing to live, to just be able to do what you have to do right then. It almost relate, well, it does relate back to accounting. When you get a big accounting problem, something massive that runs through multiple number systems and you've got missing data and...

It looks insoluble, but you sit down and pick out one piece, say, I can't solve the whole problem, but I can fix, I can solve this. And when you fix that, that will reveal something else. And you know, now that I've got this, I can also fix that.

And you just piece by piece until you get over that hump when you look in. Now I can see the whole solution. Now I can see how to work out the rest of it. But sometimes you have to solve part of a problem without really having any clue how you're going to solve the rest.

Sam Penny (46:13)
And I guess breaking it down and knowing what the right questions are to ask is the first step in the solution.

Laz (46:20)
Yeah.

or just continuing for another hour. You think to finish this, I ran into this in my last 100 miler because I'm gotten slower and slower.

And I got, there was like 10 hours to go, eight or 10 hours. And I realized I can't slow down the next eight or 10 hours or I won't make it. I'll time out. And you think, yeah, I can't keep going this speed for another 10 hours. But you say, but I can probably go this speed for another one hour.

So I'll just do this hour at this speed. I'm not gonna, I can't quit while there's still hope. So you just do that hour and at the end of that hour, you look and say, you know, I can't keep going this fast for nine more hours, but I think I can do it for one hour. And eventually, you know, that one hour is the last hour and you make it.

Sam Penny (47:25)
So tell me yourself then, you don't come across as a guy who ever wants to quit, but I'm sure there's times where you have wanted to quit. How do you push through those moments?

Laz (47:37)
When I was younger doing these things, I quit a number of times that I didn't need to. I thought I did. I thought that I'd reached the limit. And then in subsequent years, you find out that, man, the limit is way the hell out there, way further than you thought you could go when you were just a kid.

But the worst pain you've ever felt is the worst pain you've ever felt. You don't realize. And you're not really receptive to the thought, oh, it could be worse than this. Until you find out. Yeah, it can be worse than that. But anyway, when it's tough, just, again, you do what's in front of you. Don't quit right now.

The Valle State Race. Hell, how many times have said, I'm not going to quit in this city. I'll quit in the next city. I give myself permission. You can quit when you get to the next town. But when you get to the next town, it's not the next town anymore, it's this town. So you'll have to quit and the next town is on down the road.

Sam Penny (48:42)
And that's just one step after the time, one city after the time.

Laz (48:46)
Yeah, you just, the only thing you have to do is not quit right now. If you want to give yourself permission that you can quit later, go ahead and do it. It'll make you feel better.

Sam Penny (48:56)
And I've always, I've always felt, Gary, that when you give yourself permission to quit now, it kind of sets the precedence for other times when things get a little bit tough. It gives you sort of, yeah, it actually felt really nice to quit that time. I've now given myself permission to quit rather than taking that. Let's focus on the next hour. Let's focus on getting to the next town. Let's focus on...

Laz (48:57)
and

Sam Penny (49:21)
getting through this piece of hardship.

Laz (49:25)
That's a common myth that runs across all sports. But actually quitting is a evolutionary adaptation to increase our odds for survival. If you go back to those three million years when we didn't have to seek out challenge, challenge came to find us just to survive.

Sam Penny (49:45)
Hmm.

Laz (49:46)
Quitting keeps you from pursuing something that's hopeless to the point that you exhaust your resources or you burn up all your energy and there's no more food because you're trying to do something that won't work. They did an experiment with fish and they put fish in a...

in a tank where the water was flowing over them. And if they put pictures on the side that were moving past, the fish would swim against the water, against the stream of water. And if the stuff on the side of the tank appeared to be moving, the fish would swim forever. But if they stopped it where the fish could see that they were swimming and swimming and not getting anywhere, they would quit.

Sam Penny (50:11)
Hmm?

Hmm.

Laz (50:33)
So we're really not fair to ourselves or especially we're not fair to younger athletes when they're just starting out, when they give up because we have this thing built up and it's just a belief. It's myth, it's a wives tale.

old wives tale that if you give up once it gets easier to give it up again. But the reality is giving up is the default setting that we come with. And what we do as athletes or as people as we grow up, we learn how to not quit. It's an acquired skill. But we all came

Sam Penny (51:04)
Hmm.

Laz (51:15)
ready to quit.

Sam Penny (51:16)
Having a greater purpose on why you're driving forward then gets you through those really tough periods then. Why am I doing this? What is my why? What is my purpose?

Laz (51:24)
I said.

I think the two big things were, of course, one was learning to not quit. And the other one was having been around all of these, after I've seen all 20 of the people finishing the Barclay, how can I quit over the little stuff I do? I mean, you just.

Sam Penny (51:45)
Hmm.

Laz (51:48)
you feel like you've seen the standard set you need to try to at least come close to living up to it.

Sam Penny (51:55)
Now, Gary, the last question in the Brave Five, what is the best advice you could give someone facing their own impossible?

Laz (52:05)
Find a little piece that you can do and do that.

Don't worry about something that's too big to do as a whole. Find a piece that you can do.

And you won't be able to quit because you'll do that and say, OK, that's it. But then your brain will work around and it'll be thinking. You know, now that you have this, you could probably also solve that.

Sam Penny (52:30)
And I absolutely love it. Laz, thank you very much. I should say, Gary, I really get confused sometimes. Am I talking to Laz? Am I talking to Gary? The alter ego, it keeps throwing me sometimes.

Laz (52:38)
You ⁓

they're interchangeable to me. I know you're talking to me. So that's all that. That's the only purpose of nameservs. It's, I don't even know they're talking to you.

Sam Penny (52:53)
Yeah, fantastic.

There's only one Sam Penny.

Laz (52:58)
Now are you a bad penny, a shiny penny, a good penny, a new penny?

Sam Penny (53:03)
⁓ whatever penny

you get me on,

Laz (53:06)
There's a lot of kinds of pennies and then a Sam penny

Sam Penny (53:08)
A lot of kinds of pennies, are there?

And then there's the Sam Penny.

and I only just remembered this when we spoke back in 2019, cause we were talking only about Big's backyard and

the effect that that has had on the world because that that thing's gone like wildfire. It's it's in, I don't know what 50, 60 countries, something like that. There's a

Laz (53:30)
I

think it's close. Well, there's more than 70 countries that are wanting to take part, I think, in the next satellite championships.

Sam Penny (53:40)
Wow. Yeah, when we were talking back there, at the time we had runners like Maggie Gattell, Will Hayward, Katie Wright, those people who really sort of the top of the tree in terms of the results. And we're really only talking about 60 hours.

Laz (53:54)
Yeah.

Sam Penny (54:05)
And you made the bold statement back then, because I asked you, do you think we're going to see someone do a hundred hours? And you said, not in my lifetime. And it didn't take long for someone to hit a hundred hours, but it's not just someone hitting a hundred hours. It's someone else having to take them to a hundred hours as well. So what was it, Gary, that got in the space of

Laz (54:26)
Yeah.

Sam Penny (54:30)
I think it was three years of you saying, I'm never going to say it in my lifetime to three years later, just going, huh, there you go. And the results have just been amazing right around the world. What happened?

Laz (54:40)
Thank

Well, people are, you have the corporate knowledge, you have people working on refining their techniques and their methods for getting the most out of the format. And then you have every time someone does a distance, then it goes from being maybe possible to, yeah, that can definitely be done.

So humans are good at that.

Sam Penny (55:06)
Yeah.

Yeah, it was just, I just I think that that format is amazing. Hey, tell me all your races like all the the back out altres that happen around the world and you've got the Barclays which is notorious for what is it like $1 63 entry fee or something like that.

Laz (55:33)
Yeah.

Sam Penny (55:34)
It doesn't appear to be a big monetary winner for you. So, why?

Laz (55:44)
Well, between all the races, I have to make something to justify the time I spend. So they're not, you know, they're not, I'm not depleting my funds, putting them on, like set maybe Big's backyard.

Sam Penny (56:00)
Yeah.

How do you like do you have to take in sponsorship on each of these events? What is it?

Laz (56:07)
No, I'm lousy at finding a sponsor, but I'm good at budgeting. so you just budget the races. They're mostly pretty simple. They're not really slickly produced events that I do.

They're all kind of homemade.

Sam Penny (56:25)
Yeah. And that's what I think people just love about them. They, they, just feel raw. It's not putting in all in place, all these safety nets. Yeah. There's now too often with insurances and you're trying to cater to the masses. we've lost that wanting to.

Laz (56:38)
Yeah.

Sam Penny (56:48)
do something that just seems ridiculously hard with a, perhaps an element of danger in there and just go out and see what happens.

Laz (56:54)
Yeah.

Yeah, we...

We do do that. I think the Barclays helped a lot by being grandfathered in. If we started today, they would force us to put trackers on the runners, which would just kind of ruin it.

Sam Penny (57:14)
Yeah, it would.

Laz (57:14)
And they

do, they come back and say, you know, I didn't think it would make a difference. This is one of the really top world-class athletes is that thing he said, I didn't think.

It would make a difference, I came to this point in the race and I thought I can go this way, but it's a little bit risky. I could fall or I'd take the safe way around, which is longer. He said, I thought if I had a tracker, I'd take the short way.

Because if I fell, someone would find me. knew I would know I would only be there for so long and someone would come and see why I'd quit moving. But without a tracker, if I went that way and fell, I don't know when someone would ever find me. So he went the long way.

Sam Penny (57:51)
Yeah.

Yeah, and it's not easy terrain to find

someone.

Laz (58:09)
Yeah, no, yeah, there's places you you if you got in there and and fell they might not find you for a long time

Sam Penny (58:18)
Laz, thank you for pulling back the curtain and sharing your wisdom and some wild stories. Your life truly is a masterclass in testing the limits and in redefining what bravery really looks like. And to all our listeners, if you found a spark in today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, share, and leave a review. And remember, your dose of courage doesn't end here. Every Tuesday morning,

I drop a new bravery digest, a quick practical way you can practice boldness in your own life, no matter where you're starting from.

an ear out each Tuesday for that little smack of bravery and join us every Thursday for the stories of those who dare to try. See you next time for another guest who answered, why do you think he could do that?