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A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
192. Peter James Steven-compressed
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[00:00:00] Peter: There are a lot of different aspects, especially to these myths, like have trans people always existed. This is a really common one. I've actually been told that my website is erasing indigenous culture, um, [00:00:15] because trans people have always existed and this is anti-trans. Talking about how people detransition, apparently
[00:00:25] Speaker 2: you must be some kind of therapist.[00:00:30]
[00:00:30] Stephanie: Today. I'm excited to welcome Peter, Peter James. Steven is a developer and designer from Wellington, New Zealand. He recently developed a site called DET trans.ai to promote the experiences and perspectives of Detransition. [00:00:45] Det trans.ai is primarily a chatbot that deconstructs gender concepts and promotes holistic non-medical approaches to he healing gender distress.
[00:00:55] Stephanie: It integrates knowledge from the r slash det trans subreddit, [00:01:00] which is the largest open collection of det trans experiences on the internet. Peter, welcome. So great to have you.
[00:01:06] Peter: Thank you. It's great to be here.
[00:01:07] Stephanie: Thanks for joining me. And, uh, I'm honored to, uh, get to be your first podcast experience. I'm sure it'll be the first of [00:01:15] many.
[00:01:15] Stephanie: So welcome to the gender critical scene. I didn't, I didn't know who you were. And then one day that I, I saw there was this guy on X who had created this fantastic tool. So tell us a little bit about yourself and what [00:01:30] inspired you to create detras.ai.
[00:01:32] Peter: So I started building the site about three months ago.
[00:01:35] Peter: I'd had an idea for a while of building some kind of website that kind of promoted detransition experiences. Um, and their stories [00:01:45] for me, like it is a topic that's quite close to me, quite personal. Um, I have a family member who has transitioned recently and um, also in my social circles, I've seen quite [00:02:00] a few people go down that path recently.
[00:02:02] Peter: Yeah, I. I've always been like supportive of people who've wanted to do this and, um, especially my family member, like always respected the choices [00:02:15] and, um, and what they wanted to do and how they wanted to be referred to and like their new name and stuff. But I was kind of curious about what it actually means to be trans [00:02:30] and why people transition.
[00:02:32] Peter: You know, like the mainstream narrative is that people are born this way and that you discover that you're trans and, and then you, you transition because your inner [00:02:45] identity doesn't match your body. And this is kind of like a mainstream belief now, which, you know, like I have not had that feeling. I'm not, I wouldn't consider myself trans myself.[00:03:00]
[00:03:00] Peter: Um, so I don't know, but. I wanted to understand more about what these people were feeling. Um, so I started reading more about it, uh, and I stumbled upon [00:03:15] Detransition, which really surprised me, uh, that there's people that actually go back and they realize, yeah, they might realize a lot of different things.
[00:03:26] Peter: It's quite personal from what I understand, but, [00:03:30] um, the fact that Detransition is exist kind of debunks the idea that anyone who says they're trans is like, was born that way. Um, and I think that after like [00:03:45] reading so many experiences and doing this work, I really think the born this way narrative is really toxic.
[00:03:56] Peter: I think it's ruining people's lives. So I think the. [00:04:00] The Born This Way narrative is kind of used as a coping mechanism almost of people who are feeling there's feelings of being in the wrong body and they have no explanation, um, [00:04:15] on the internet. Um, all these trans communities give you kind of like this readymade identity, um, and story of why you're like this.
[00:04:27] Peter: Um, and [00:04:30] yeah, I think a lot of people buy into that and use it to describe why they feel this way and, and why they feel like they're in the wrong body. But from what Detransition is, [00:04:45] say, this bodily discomfort can have many different origins, um, from trauma to just like puberty discomfort, um, to. [00:05:00] Like not wanting to be sexualized as a woman.
[00:05:05] Peter: Um, a lot of young women are like, young women are massively overrepresented in detransition as [00:05:15] statistics, and it seems like most of them are kind of running away from womanhood for whatever reason. Um, and yeah, I just think it's something we need to talk [00:05:30] about and we need to like raise more awareness about what is trans and why do people detransition.
[00:05:38] Peter: Um. A lot of things really.
[00:05:40] Stephanie: I appreciate that context, Peter. And for those who are just listening and not [00:05:45] watching this episode, they might not know that you look quite young, um, handsome young guy from New Zealand, uh, living that, that lifestyle where you're, um, enjoying some time on the road. I see. From where you're, you're joining [00:06:00] us and so I'm thinking about, um, what it's like to be.
[00:06:05] Stephanie: In your twenties or early thirties and kind of growing up around this more, and I'm hearing that you approached this with a really [00:06:15] open heart and mind trying to understand someone you loved and that's what led you well. Not only someone you loved, but but many people around you. And it was that search for the truth coming from a place of compassion that [00:06:30] led you to discover so much of what's really driving people into this.
[00:06:35] Stephanie: And likewise for me, when I discovered the stories of Detransition, it was a really eye-opening moment as well, and. [00:06:45] I think that's one of the, the kind of main things I, I find myself saying on this podcast all the time is that I can understand, not knowing that people are harmed by this. Um, but what I can't understand is when, when people have that moment of finding out [00:07:00] that there are people harmed by this, how they don't just light up that same way.
[00:07:04] Stephanie: Like, well then I, I have to learn what happened to the people who are harmed by this. And so that was the search that led you into all this? I don't know. I mean, I'm imagining you probably wanna keep your family [00:07:15] information close to your chest here.
[00:07:16] Peter: Yeah. Um, I won't speak too much more about that apart from the fact that I have a family member who.
[00:07:24] Peter: Um, is affected by this, I would say. Well,
[00:07:27] Stephanie: and thank you for, for sharing that and for using your [00:07:30] talents as a, a web developer. I think it just goes to show, and that's something I like to highlight on this podcast, is people with whatever their background and skills and talents might be, that those can be contributed to a cause they find [00:07:45] worthwhile.
[00:07:45] Stephanie: So did you just kind of build this in your free time then?
[00:07:47] Peter: I've been unemployed for about a year. Uh, I've been working on my own projects. I've been trying to build my own business and I just, yeah, I've been wanting [00:08:00] to do something with de transition experiences, and then I was kind of like looking for domain domain names and trying to get ideas.
[00:08:09] Peter: And then I see that Drans AI is only a couple of hundred dollars and I thought [00:08:15] shit, like for a AI domain, like that's a pretty sweet domain name. I could do something with that. From there, like the ideas just started flowing. Really.
[00:08:25] Stephanie: Let me share this for context. So I think most people who are regular listeners [00:08:30] in my podcast probably know that I launched an AI repair bot.
[00:08:35] Stephanie: Trained on my program, ROGD Repair, and that is for parents of trans-identified youth who are looking for help implementing communication tools to improve their [00:08:45] relationships and stop shooting themselves in the foot with how they communicate with trans-identified youth, learn some better tools instead.
[00:08:53] Stephanie: So that's what Repair Bot is for. But I'm not a developer, so mine is built and hosted on a platform that has its own [00:09:00] strengths and limitations. It's a platform designed to train an AI based on someone's likeness. So it's trained primarily on my content and that's why it sounds and talks so much like me and knows so many of the same things I do.
[00:09:12] Stephanie: Your experience is quite different 'cause you are. [00:09:15] A developer, you have the skills to build something from the ground up. So, uh, it sounds like you chose to train your AI probably by a very different method than how I trained mine on the experiences shared on the Drans [00:09:30] subreddit. Can you tell us what all went into building this AI and some of the decisions that you had to make along the way about how to train it and what to include?
[00:09:38] Peter: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so one of the first core decisions is which [00:09:45] AI model do I use as a base? Um, there's many different models out there. Uh, most people would be familiar with open AI's, GPT models that are used for chat, GPT. Um, [00:10:00] I experimented with those and it turned out that there was far too much like safety guardrails when it came to gender topics.
[00:10:11] Peter: It would just kind of warp the words [00:10:15] of, I think I have to explain a little bit about how my, my service works. Um, I didn't necessarily train an AI model myself 'cause that would be incredibly [00:10:30] expensive and time consuming. What I did was use a technique called retrieval augmented generation, or RAG for short.
[00:10:40] Peter: And what that means basically is that your chat bot [00:10:45] can fetch other content to augment the response it gives to the user. So if you ask it a question related to, uh, you know, if you ask it like, [00:11:00] I'm a parent and my 18-year-old daughter just told me she's trans, what do I do? It will look up, it'll do a lookup.
[00:11:09] Peter: And my database, which contains every single comment from the Deran subreddit [00:11:15] and it will query, um, what did parents of 18-year-old daughters do when their, when their daughter said they were trans. And then it might make another question and it might say, um, what do [00:11:30] Detransition is say that, like, what do they say that their parents said that didn't help?
[00:11:38] Peter: And what did they say did help? It'll, it'll try and come from different angles, [00:11:45] and then it integrates the responses from Reddit into the response. And it kind of like formulates a response with that information from Reddit. Um, so the Reddit data [00:12:00] augments the response from the chat bot and. Yeah, actually like choosing a model to work with was quite difficult because a lot of models almost seem explicitly trained to [00:12:15] kind of uphold these gender identity beliefs, like the belief that everyone has in an agenda.
[00:12:22] Peter: Identity chat, GPT, just like will not let go of that idea. And even if it's a [00:12:30] detransition or like talking about how this idea really, really harmed them and that they wish they were never told this, it will still weave that into the re response and say, you know, like we transition is still [00:12:45] the right choice for some people.
[00:12:46] Peter: And you know, maybe it is, but it kind of dilutes the purpose, which is, you know, like giving the actual det trans experience and perspective, which does conflict, its agenda [00:13:00] critical perspective and it directly conflicts with the mainstream kind of gender. Ideology. Yeah.
[00:13:10] Stephanie: So you found a way around that. I mean, the bias is real and [00:13:15] I've very mixed observations on the bias as I witness it from my parent coaching role because I've seen parents use chat GPT for themselves and it'll tell them what they wanna hear.
[00:13:28] Stephanie: But then I also know their [00:13:30] kids are using chat GPT and it's quite sycophantic with them as well. So, you know, for instance, parents have shown me scripts they, they had access to of their kids' interactions with chat GPT. And it was so easy for me to [00:13:45] see how, from a family systems perspective, chat, GPT was like this triangulating, seductive, extra member of the family that had walked in and had this pull on their kid because the kid is looking for emotional support and validation and chat GP [00:14:00] t's just telling them whatever they wanna hear and taking on the persona that they want.
[00:14:05] Stephanie: So I, I absolutely believe you that the bias is real and built in to these systems, but also that you're gonna get a different [00:14:15] version of it depending on who you are. So you say that there's, I can't remember the, um, the term you used for the, the technology that you use, that you were able to avoid this bias with [00:14:30] some kind of acronym.
[00:14:32] Peter: But the technique is called retrieval Augmented generation, um, where you enhance your prompt with data from another source. And, um, [00:14:45] I tried it with the GPT models. I tried it with another Chinese model called Deep Seek. Um, and I tried, I tried a bunch of different models and I ended up settling for one called Kimmy.[00:15:00]
[00:15:00] Peter: Which is also a Chinese model. And I think the fact that it would've been trained primarily on Chinese texts is why it is very open-minded when it comes to talking about gender. [00:15:15] Um, and it, it doesn't try and like force this narrative down your throat that the other ones tend to do. Um, yeah, so I use Kimmy K [00:15:30] two as like the base model for this service.
[00:15:33] Stephanie: Okay. So that's interesting for all the technical people out there. So once you settled on a model that would work without [00:15:45] this bias, I hear retrieval, augmented generation, Kimmy K two, um, what were some of the other decisions that you had to make along the way about how to train your model?
[00:15:56] Peter: I launched it.
[00:15:58] Peter: A couple of months ago, well [00:16:00] maybe six weeks ago, maybe two months ago. Um, and when I launched it, I launched it with deep research mode as the only available mode. And I really like how that [00:16:15] works. You can ask any question related to gender and it will give you a response that considers like multiple angles.
[00:16:24] Peter: I wanted to have a bunch of starter questions on the homepage so people could go [00:16:30] straight into, just start kind of like exploring the topic, some starter questions. So I came up with a lot of starter questions and I sorted them into different categories. I have like [00:16:45] a category called the medical reality, um, psychology, uh, like general terms, definitions, and.
[00:16:56] Peter: One called like controversial takes as well. [00:17:00] Um, when I first launched the site, I shared it on my Facebook page and had like quite a mixed reaction. Most of the people who commented on the post like publicly [00:17:15] were quite critical of my work, and they thought it was kind of like harmful towards trans people to kind of like, I don't know on one hand to [00:17:30] like talk about this, but also I realized the way that I presented it was quite inflammatory.
[00:17:37] Peter: Originally, I had some statistics on the homepage, um, some shocking statistics. Really. [00:17:45] Uh, one statistic was that since 2013, between 2013 and 2022, the. There has been a 5000% increase [00:18:00] in gender dysphoria referrals in the uk. That means we're in the paper that I linked to, you know, and I linked to the actual source of the statistic as well.
[00:18:12] Peter: Um, and in the paper, [00:18:15] yeah, it explains that it's a 50 fold increase, which means that if there was one person in 2013, now for every one person there's 50 people, which is just mind blowing. [00:18:30] Um, and people didn't like seeing his statistics, I tell you. Like, I don't know. I think even presenting statistics, even though they're real [00:18:45] does kind of set a lot of people off.
[00:18:48] Peter: And, um, I want my site to be a place where trans people can come. And not get triggered immediately and actually like, have to [00:19:00] have the curiosity to explore it a little bit. So I removed the statistics from the front page. Um, I reworded quite a lot of the questions as well, just to try and make them as neutral [00:19:15] and kind of scientific sounding as possible.
[00:19:20] Peter: Um, just to get rid of any potential cultural or bias because yeah, I think like the first impressions really [00:19:30] count when you land on a website. Um, it's a shame because like, I think most statistics are important and people should see them, but at the same time it felt like they were driving a lot of people away and people like [00:19:45] just kind of assumed as this like evil anti-trans thing.
[00:19:50] Stephanie: It's bold of you to enter this as someone who had a lot of trans-identified people and their so-called allies, um, in your [00:20:00] life, Peter. And it's, it's a lot for one tool to accomplish to be able to reach people on both sides of such a polarized issue is this one. Um, [00:20:15] I made a, a decision that I was going to aim to help certain people with the recognition that my work would feel excluding to other types of people.
[00:20:28] Stephanie: Um, you know, my message [00:20:30] is for the parents, it's not for the youth, um, except for the youth who are really open. But, uh, you began earlier by sharing an example of how a parent might use this tool, but then you also said something I really wanna. Lean into more, [00:20:45] which is that you want someone who's currently trans identified to be able to go to this website and learn things without feeling immediately alienated.
[00:20:54] Stephanie: So tell us more about your intended audience for [00:21:00] drans.ai, who you imagine using this website,
[00:21:02] Peter: like you said. Um, and like I said earlier, parents and people who have family members that they might want to understand more about or know how to support while not like pushing them further into [00:21:15] it. I can see the conversations that people have been having, and I would say about half of the people are parents in this position.
[00:21:24] Stephanie: Well, I think there's probably some overlap between what your bot would say to parents and what mine would, because yours is [00:21:30] based on what Detransition. Either realize in retrospect, would've been helpful or realize was helpful. It's the things that Detransition can actually name. Um, and that's one really helpful source of information.
[00:21:44] Stephanie: And I [00:21:45] think some of the advice that my bot and my program would give overlaps with that advice. But some of it is also things that if you're doing it well, your kid is never gonna notice, but they're gonna move in a healthier direction. And so Detransition wouldn't necessarily be able to name those things, but they would maybe [00:22:00] notice that their relationship with their parents improving.
[00:22:02] Stephanie: Um, but you also are building a bridge between your audience of concerned parents and your audience of Detransition trans-identified people who are questioning and [00:22:15] things like that. And I'm curious about your kind of vision for that side of your user base, because one of the first things that struck me about your website when I started to check it out is I thought this is a great place for people who are.
[00:22:29] Stephanie: Det, trans [00:22:30] curious, like the trans identified people who are having their doubts, who are starting to question, am I being lied to about Detransition? You know, maybe they feel like because there is that kind of cult mentality around them in the trans [00:22:45] community, they feel like they can't just go straight to detransition or talk to people outside of their bubble on an individual basis.
[00:22:52] Stephanie: But when you give them something like ai, which feels anonymous and safe, and like it's there to answer all your [00:23:00] questions, maybe that would be a place that they could go to start to explore that curiosity.
[00:23:06] Peter: Definitely. Um, and I have seen a lot of trans identified people using it and asking questions. [00:23:15] Um, some of them quite funny to be honest.
[00:23:20] Peter: Like I had one person using it who said. I, I currently identify as trans and I have a de trans kink. Um, [00:23:30] so I thought that was kind of interesting, but whew.
[00:23:38] Speaker 2: Yeah. Um.
[00:23:43] Stephanie: I don't know what to say to [00:23:45] that.
[00:23:48] Stephanie: Many of you listening to this show are concerned about an adolescent or young adult you care about who's caught up in the gender insanity and therefore at risk of medical self-destruction. I [00:24:00] developed ROGD repair as a resource for parents just like you. It's a self-paced online course and community that will teach you the psychology concept and communication tools.
[00:24:11] Stephanie: The families I've consulted with have found most helpful in [00:24:15] understanding and getting through to their children even when they're adults. Visit r gd repair.com to learn more about the program and use promo code some therapist 2025 at checkout to take 50% off your [00:24:30] first month. That's ROGD repair.com.
[00:24:35] Stephanie: I'm also thinking about the, uh, research potential. For a site like this, I'm remembering how, when I was at the Gen Spec [00:24:45] conference in Albuquerque recently, I think it was September, um, I got to meet a guy who goes by ML on Substack. Do you know, um, his, his substack name is M [00:25:00] Babu. Uh, does that ring a bell?
[00:25:02] Stephanie: I don't think I know him.
[00:25:02] Speaker 2: No.
[00:25:03] Stephanie: Um, so I believe he's an ROGD dad and a researcher, and I had shared his paper, one of his, um, [00:25:15] substack articles with so many parents. It's called Estrogen is Really, really Bad for Men. And it's an article summarizing the research on the harms of estrogen in males. And I had shared this as a resource with many parents.
[00:25:28] Stephanie: And then I got to meet him at the Gen [00:25:30] Spec conference. And then most recently he published a couple of papers, which are, um, much more. Scientific, you know, journal articles containing the same information. And I remember when we were talking at the Gens spec conference, he was very lit up about [00:25:45] research and AI and he was actually describing something similar to your project.
[00:25:52] Stephanie: And this was right before I found you, 'cause you just launched this pretty recently. Um, I think I found [00:26:00] drans.ai within like a week or two of it being launched. Um, he was lit up about the potential, like what if you had this AI database that, that had all this information about DET transition and, and what you could do with that.[00:26:15]
[00:26:15] Stephanie: Um, I'm trying to remember what some of his ideas were, but it seems like an incredible resource to have. Um. An AI that's trained on the DET trends subreddit that 'cause thinking about, and I'm sorry, my thoughts are a little disorganized, just [00:26:30] kind of thinking out loud here, but if you look at, for example, Lisa Lipman's research on detransition, you know, looking at qualitatively, what are the common themes, you know, 63 out of a hundred detransition report sexual trauma, for example.
[00:26:43] Stephanie: And that's, I'm [00:26:45] just making up that statistic. That might not be the exact number, but that's what her research essentially looks like. And I think, although of course we need to take anything with a grain of salt where it's just people sharing on Reddit, that's not, um, you know, it's not an official source of [00:27:00] information.
[00:27:00] Stephanie: But I feel like cumulatively that's such a great, um, potential starting point, at least for research.
[00:27:08] Peter: Definitely. I think it gives a really good idea of, um, [00:27:15] of what the trends are and you know, like what, what. Um, I'm not sure if you've seen, but as part of this work, what I call phase two, I [00:27:30] analyzed 2,700 of the most, uh, active users on the D Tran subreddit.
[00:27:38] Peter: And basically what I did is for any user who's posted more than [00:27:45] five comments that have each received at least three up votes. Um, so basically like any user who's posted a decent amount of relevant and useful content, [00:28:00] I have used AI to summarize all of their comments and generate a little like summary and a story and then from, and a timeline as well.
[00:28:13] Peter: So if it's able to [00:28:15] extract. At what age this person started socially transitioning. At what age they started taking hormones or got surgeries. All of that data is extracted from their comments if it can be, and then put in the [00:28:30] table. And then with all of this data, all of these generated stories and timelines, I processed them again.
[00:28:39] Peter: And I basically had a prompt that said, um, [00:28:45] if it, if you can extract the main reason why this person transitioned in the first place, and also what caused them to Detransition. And then I ended up with this huge list [00:29:00] of reasons, some of them quite similar. And I got, I, I personally like. Reduced the list to like a bunch of core reasons, detransition [00:29:15] reasons, and transition reasons.
[00:29:18] Peter: And then I went through it again and I said, okay, using just this list, pick the most relevant reason and the most relevant. Yeah, the most reason, relevant reason for [00:29:30] transition and the most relevant reason, the detransition as well. And it produced some really interesting results. Um, it, yeah, if anyone wants to check out what [00:29:45] I'm talking about, it's available at the stories page at Deran ai.
[00:29:49] Peter: So Deran ai, that's,
[00:29:51] Stephanie: that's amazing. Peter
[00:29:53] Peter: slash stories.
[00:29:54] Stephanie: Tell us, uh, obviously you can't, uh, remember all 2,700 pieces of data [00:30:00] at once, but that's, that's what AI is for, is for summarizing these things. So, so out of that body of research, what were some of the trends that stuck out to you the most?
[00:30:10] Peter: I'm not share my screen.
[00:30:11] Peter: Yeah, I will just bring it up 'cause there's some [00:30:15] really interesting graphs that I've produced.
[00:30:16] Stephanie: All right. So we're gonna do a screen share. So listeners, if you want to look at the screen share, move on over to YouTube where you can see the video version of this podcast. Otherwise, we're just going to have Peter [00:30:30] describe what he is seeing so that if you're listening, audio only you can follow along.
[00:30:34] Stephanie: Yeah, let's take a look. So for those who are just listening, Peter, why don't you go ahead and describe what we're looking at.
[00:30:39] Peter: So what we're looking at is a graph that shows the [00:30:45] transition age in blue and the Detransition age. Red, I'm not actually sure what the technical term for this type of graph is.
[00:30:54] Peter: It's not a bar graph, um, but it's basically a line. [00:31:00] Um, and on the y axis we've got the number of users, and then on the X axis we've got the age and we can see that most users seem to transition around the age [00:31:15] 16, um, or 19. 16 to 19, I'd say reason. So interesting
[00:31:21] Stephanie: how it dips. It goes 16, then it goes down at 18 and back up at 19.
[00:31:26] Peter: That is quite interesting. And then we see, so there's [00:31:30] like two peaks basically. Yes. And then we see the same two peaks repeated about four years later.
[00:31:36] Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:37] Peter: And we can see that.
[00:31:38] Stephanie: So our peak detransition ages are, it looks like what, 20 and 23. They're a little closer together [00:31:45] actually. 20, 20 and 22.
[00:31:47] Peter: And yeah, it just shows a very distinct trend.
[00:31:50] Peter: We do have to remember this is Reddit and there's a certain user base on Reddit. Um, but at the same [00:32:00] time, we should acknowledge that in the mid two thousands, I think three out of every four people diagnosed with gender dysphoria or males, whereas from like in these times now [00:32:15] it's three females. I think three out of four people are female.
[00:32:22] Peter: So actually,
[00:32:23] Stephanie: you know what, sorry. On that note, Peter, I'm wondering if you have, uh, any [00:32:30] data or graphs on the gender distribution because when we first looked at this image, before I realized what we were looking at, I was wondering if we were looking at male V versus female distributions. 'cause to me it seems like there's been a wave of males [00:32:45] behind the females, uh, transitioning a little bit later.
[00:32:49] Stephanie: And I was wondering if you have any data on that.
[00:32:51] Peter: The colors are a little bit deceiving, um,
[00:32:55] Stephanie: right. But yeah,
[00:32:56] Peter: here we can filter between male or female, so, oh, okay. [00:33:00] Look at female and that'll change your
[00:33:01] Stephanie: chart right there.
[00:33:02] Peter: Yep.
[00:33:03] Stephanie: Okay. So now we're looking at female, and it looks really similar to the last one we were looking at.
[00:33:09] Peter: And here you can see there's. So out of the 2,700 stories, about [00:33:15] 2000 of them are female. 2061.
[00:33:18] Stephanie: All right. So what happens if we go to male then? Let's see how the graph changes
[00:33:23] Peter: and it's quite different. Ah,
[00:33:24] Stephanie: there it's later. Okay. I was right.
[00:33:27] Peter: Yep.
[00:33:28] Stephanie: So here we have, [00:33:30] there's a transition age peaking at, what is that?
[00:33:33] Stephanie: 20 and then taking longer to detransition.
[00:33:37] Peter: A lot of them transitioning at 20 and then it drops right off and yeah, it's much more spread out the males
[00:33:44] Stephanie: that [00:33:45] mirrors what I'm seeing in my day to day. Sorry, go ahead. What were you gonna show us
[00:33:49] Peter: over here? I have another graph called Duration. Mm-hmm. Um, which is, uh, it just shows the duration in a slightly different visual [00:34:00] format.
[00:34:00] Peter: So here we're looking at, and that says
[00:34:01] Stephanie: four, four years average for males.
[00:34:04] Peter: Yep. This is the male average four years. Then if we overlay the females as well, you can see that, oh, for
[00:34:14] Stephanie: females it's [00:34:15] longer.
[00:34:15] Peter: That's interesting, isn't it? Because mm-hmm. The males are like a lot more spread out and there's not so much of a clear trend, but the females actually transition for longer.
[00:34:27] Peter: So from looking at this, it looks like [00:34:30] more females transition as teenagers and at the same time, whereas males are more likely to transition a bit later and like when they're older.
[00:34:40] Stephanie: Yeah. And that, that, that big peak at 20 with the males. 'cause I, I talked to so many [00:34:45] parents of 20-year-old males. I mean, not just 20, but those college age males, that's a really common, uh, demographic.
[00:34:54] Stephanie: And then you can, you have these buttons up here where you can press transition reason and Detransition [00:35:00] reason. Yep.
[00:35:01] Peter: Um, so here we're still looking at males, I believe, and this is, these are the primary reasons why Detransition is say they transitioned. Um, so yeah, it's important to note that this data only represents [00:35:15] the people who've det transitioned in the data set.
[00:35:18] Peter: It's not representative of all trans people.
[00:35:21] Stephanie: Right. Peter, can you read some of these out loud for our audience who are listening?
[00:35:25] Peter: Yeah. So the main reason that people give, [00:35:30] um, is social role discomfort. The main reason that males give. Um, the second reason is Autogynephilia. Um, for listeners who aren't familiar with what that means, that [00:35:45] means that they have a kind of like a paraphilic fetish where they really like the idea of themselves being women.
[00:35:54] Peter: Yeah. You know, like, I haven't experienced this and I haven. [00:36:00] Really listen to too many experiences of what, like firsthand experiences of what this is like. So I won't talk too much about it.
[00:36:08] Stephanie: Mm-hmm. I've interviewed a few people on this podcast who have shared about it openly. Go ahead.
[00:36:12] Peter: Okay. Sounds interesting.
[00:36:14] Peter: And then we [00:36:15] have internalized homophobia in third place. We have influenced online in fourth place the move trauma, general mental health issues, internalized misandry null. I need [00:36:30] to tie you up. Does
[00:36:30] Stephanie: null mean they, does that mean they didn't answer the question?
[00:36:33] Peter: Yeah, there's no, I couldn't extract a reason.
[00:36:37] Peter: Okay. For whatever reason.
[00:36:39] Stephanie: So just ignore that category. Yeah. Yeah. What else do we have here?
[00:36:43] Peter: Body dysmorphia. [00:36:45] Um, OCD. Intrusive thoughts. This is something that does get mentioned by quite a few people where, um, they develop. Like an o, an obsessive compulsive disorder about thinking about their gender and how they're perceived, [00:37:00] and it just becomes something they obsess about.
[00:37:03] Stephanie: Oh, absolutely. That's, it's hugely under, uh, underused in my opinion. I talk about this a lot with my coaching clients, that obsessive compulsive nature of this stuff.
[00:37:13] Speaker 2: Hmm.
[00:37:14] Stephanie: And, and [00:37:15] just so we're clear, because all of this adds up to 100%, so is this you, you said you, you had to extract the main reason for each person.
[00:37:23] Stephanie: Yeah.
[00:37:24] Speaker 2: Yep.
[00:37:24] Stephanie: That's right. So, so what we're seeing could be a little misleading just in the sense that a [00:37:30] person could have reported three of these, but the AI is focusing on what does the main one seem to be for that person? Exactly. So it's something like, um, autogynephilia, um, body dysmorphia, um, [00:37:45] OCD, these could actually be factors in bigger percentages of people, but they might not be attributed as the main factor for that person.
[00:37:53] Peter: Yep, that's correct.
[00:37:54] Stephanie: Okay. Okay. All right. Anything else you wanted to show us about this one? It says autism [00:38:00] identity instability.
[00:38:01] Peter: These are like, a lot of people do mention autism as being related. Um. It's probably not the primary factor for most people,
[00:38:11] Stephanie: or they maybe don't understand. They don't fully see yet [00:38:15] how that factored in.
[00:38:17] Peter: Uh, so we are only looking at males right now.
[00:38:20] Stephanie: Mm-hmm. Oh, okay.
[00:38:21] Peter: If we switch it to female, we're gonna see something quite different. So now we're looking at females and they're transition reason, self-reported. [00:38:30] Um, social role discomfort is the main one at 22%. And then we have internalized misogyny about 19%.
[00:38:40] Peter: And then trauma, internalized homophobia influenced online [00:38:45] body dysmorphia, mental health issues, autism, fear of sexualization influenced by friends. Yeah. I think the main difference here is the large [00:39:00] chunk who. Experience, internalized misogyny seems to kind of completely replace the autogynephilia section, what you see with the males.
[00:39:09] Peter: Yes. Oh, I think like one thing that [00:39:15] I, I kind of see through this is that a lot of women transition to men to kind of escape sexualization, whereas it seems a lot of men transition to [00:39:30] sexualize themselves. It's kind of like two opposing forces.
[00:39:36] Stephanie: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And, and looking at this with bearing in mind that any given user might have [00:39:45] reported multiple of these things, and this is just showing us which one the user gave us, the impression was the strongest driving force for them.
[00:39:52] Stephanie: I think the fact that fear of sexualization is even on there at all is really telling, because that means that for that. You [00:40:00] know that 28 out of 2000 users who said fear of sexualization was the main reason, right? It was probably the secondary or tertiary reason for the girls with internalized misogyny, trauma, [00:40:15] um, body dysmorphia, all of those things, they all fit together and isn't it so interesting.
[00:40:22] Stephanie: You know, I have parents do homework when they work with me as a coach. Sometimes I assign homework from the program. So I'll point them to a [00:40:30] specific lesson in ROGD repair that I think is relevant to their situation. And sometimes I'll just make up exercises on the spot. And then sometimes the exercises I make up with parents end up becoming lessons in the course.
[00:40:41] Stephanie: And one less, or one, um, type of [00:40:45] homework that I found myself giving out a lot this past month was I had parents make a mind map. Parents of boys. And again, it's usually those college aged boys. I had them make a girl mind map. So when your son [00:41:00] says, girl, what does he mean? What are the things that we can associate with girls?
[00:41:04] Stephanie: So maybe we draw a line from girl to child and another line from girl to sex object. Right. So what does it mean to be a child? It means to be safe and free and protected and free [00:41:15] from responsibility and get to live in fantasy land and, um, dependent on others. Right. And what does it mean to be a sexual object?
[00:41:23] Stephanie: Well, it means being, uh, desirable, being a sexual being without being the aggressor. [00:41:30] Um, so these are some of the associations with the world word girl that come up when parents try to understand what's going on in their child's internal world. And I have yet to start doing the same exercise with parents of girls for the word [00:41:45] boy.
[00:41:45] Stephanie: And it's usually girl and boy, not man and woman, although sometimes it is man and woman. Um, but I'd be curious to see how. Parents using a tool like this and, uh, seeing what this is about for [00:42:00] so many people might feed into their ability to understand these associations in their kids' brains. What else can you show us on this page?
[00:42:08] Peter: So I also have detransition reasons.
[00:42:11] Stephanie: Yes, please.
[00:42:12] Peter: This graph is a lot messier [00:42:15] than the other graph I find because there's a lot of different reasons that people say cause them to detransition. Um, but most of them are some kind of realization and medical complications are [00:42:30] quite common as well.
[00:42:31] Stephanie: Are we looking at girls?
[00:42:32] Stephanie: Here
[00:42:32] Peter: we are. Um, so we're still on female. Um, the main reason that caused people to detransition was getting the right therapy turns out and [00:42:45] having a self-realization through that. Then we have like a trauma realization, which means that. These women like realized that the reason that they transitioned in the first place was Juda, some other trauma and then an identity [00:43:00] realization that could mean different things for different people, to be honest.
[00:43:03] Peter: Medical complications, social construct realization, and then social role realization. Similar thing. I think maybe realizing that I can be a masculine woman or [00:43:15] I can be a feminine boy and that's okay. Or I can enjoy doing whatever I do. Then we have null, then we've got internalized misogyny, realization, um, surgery regret and lack of resolution.
[00:43:29] Peter: That is kind of [00:43:30] concerning. The amount of like medical complications and surgery regret factoring into the reason why people detransition. Maybe it's a bit of a, maybe these people who have had kind of like a [00:43:45] wake up call where now that. Dealing with the fallout of what they've done to themselves and deeply regretting that they did this.
[00:43:54] Peter: And it still doesn't, you can't really change your sex. You can try, [00:44:00] um, and it might not be very pretty.
[00:44:02] Stephanie: So what you're showing us right now is this phase two.
[00:44:05] Peter: This is what I considered phase two, analyzing all the stories from the user profiles. And if you go here, you can [00:44:15] also like read all the individual stories of the users thus sorted by most comments.
[00:44:22] Peter: So this is the most active user and the d tran sub subreddit, uh, with 1,300 comments. [00:44:30] A DET trans is, was born with an intersex condition and felt like a freak because my body developed differently from other girls. I was manipulated into believing I was a boy and started taking testosterone as a teenager.
[00:44:43] Peter: The hormones and surgeries caused [00:44:45] permanent health problems and changed my body in ways I can't reverse. I stopped years ago by now. I live with deep regret in a body that doesn't feel like mine. I was failed by everyone who should have helped me love myself as the woman I am really interesting that this is one of the top users [00:45:00] in the subreddit and intersex person when intersex people so often get used as pawns, um, by the trans community to justify why trans people exist.
[00:45:12] Peter: You know, they say like, well, [00:45:15] intersex people exist, you know, and intersex people are being trans when they don't need to be. Um, this is not the only case. There's quite a few intersex people [00:45:30] in the subreddit that have. Spoken about similar things.
[00:45:34] Stephanie: Yes. And just something for, uh, concerned listeners to be aware of while we're on the topic of intersex is one of the sort of latest trends in, um, [00:45:45] trans discourse.
[00:45:47] Stephanie: Their, their narrative is that they consider themselves intersex when they're not. So, um, you know, lots of people who are actually not born with a disorder of sexual development don't have any [00:46:00] genetic or physical anomaly, but they sort of reconceptualize the idea of being trans as an indicator that they have some sort of intersex condition.
[00:46:10] Stephanie: And then they induce, uh, what is essentially iatrogenic [00:46:15] disorder of not sexual development, but they induce the same qualities as having a DSD, uh, through taking these drugs. So it's iatrogenic harm. And I talked, um, long time ago on this podcast with a man [00:46:30] named James Lenahan. Who has a, a congenital condition, um, that he, he became a part of the gender critical movement upon learning that people were giving drugs to children that made children suffer in ways very similar to [00:46:45] how he had to suffer because of his body's failure to produce its own, uh, endocrine chemicals.
[00:46:52] Stephanie: So, and then he also gave a talk at the most recent Gen spec conference. So that's just something that I, whenever the topic of intersex come up comes up, I want [00:47:00] parents to be aware of, because you might hear your kids either talking as if they think they have a disorder of sexual development when they don't.
[00:47:09] Stephanie: Or framing trans is an intersex condition. And then there's also this problem of medical fraud, which [00:47:15] is a huge aspect of how people get away with this, especially in states where it's illegal. So a lot of, um, trans-identified people, their medical billing for their hormones and surgeries is often billed as treatment for an [00:47:30] intersex condition, even when it's not.
[00:47:31] Stephanie: So that's just something I felt like I needed to throw out there about the whole intersex topic. And you're right, it really is a shame for people who actually have these conditions that deserve treatment and compassion.
[00:47:41] Peter: I also was watching a video from a [00:47:45] detransition recently. I'm just trying to find his name.
[00:47:47] Peter: Johnny Skinner.
[00:47:49] Stephanie: Johnny Skinner, yeah. I got to meet him at Gens Spec as well.
[00:47:54] Peter: He had a really similar story where, and he's speaking out about it right now. I think he's gonna [00:48:00] sue the doctor that did this. Um. He was a trans kid and he was told by his doctor that he had like a, an intersex condition where his, his [00:48:15] brain didn't match his body.
[00:48:17] Peter: Um, but then the doctor used like some completely different insurance code to get him on hormones, uh, to get him on puberty blockers because we, he [00:48:30] was like puberty blockers weren't legal for, for that purpose. Um, the drug loop pro and uh, yeah, it's basically medical [00:48:45] fraud and I think he's now trying to sue this doctor for it.
[00:48:52] Stephanie: Yeah, it's a huge problem. And the medical fraud, I'm glad he's suing
[00:48:56] Peter: him and his mother. Both believed the [00:49:00] story that the doctor was saying about how, you know, he's got like a, a feminized brain and a male body and this is the best treatment, you know, and really he is just like a feminine gay boy. So, [00:49:15] yeah, it's really sad.
[00:49:16] Stephanie: Peter, can you show us around the site more? So right now we're looking at some of these charts on, on one side of the site. I don't even think I'd seen this part 'cause you also have this whole chat interface. Can you show us that side?
[00:49:27] Peter: Yeah. So let's go to the [00:49:30] homepage. I've tried to keep the homepage pretty minimal.
[00:49:32] Peter: Up top, we've got links to some videos. We've got links to the story page and help and support, which lists gender exploratory therapists and breaks out down the difference between gender affirming care and gender [00:49:45] exploratory therapy and debunks some myths around what gender exploratory therapy is, namely how it is not.
[00:49:51] Peter: Equivalent to gay conversion therapy.
[00:49:53] Stephanie: That's a wonderful service you're doing right there.
[00:49:56] Peter: Yeah.
[00:49:57] Stephanie: Why don't you read this out loud for those who are [00:50:00] just listening.
[00:50:00] Peter: Okay. So this is my homepage. Um, below the links, I have a little like chat that's already happened. I don't know how to describe it, but the first chat message you see [00:50:15] is, hello, what's a detransition?
[00:50:17] Peter: And the response is, hi there, I'm DET Trans ai. The collective consciousness of detransition is lizard emoji. A Detransition is an ex transgender person who transitioned socially or [00:50:30] medically, but has since stopped identifying as transgender and may have reversed aspects of their transition. I observed the reasons, patterns, and truths of why people adopt, inhabit, and ultimately move on from gender identities.
[00:50:43] Peter: My purpose is to share this [00:50:45] knowledge, to help deconstruct gender concepts and to promote holistic non-medical approaches to healing gender dysphoria. How can I help you today? And then there's some starter questions. Sorry, but what's up with the lizards? I'm questioning [00:51:00] my gender identity and I think I might be trans.
[00:51:03] Peter: I currently identify as trans, and I'm thinking about det transitioning. I'm a parent family member or friend of someone who is transitioning. I'm seeking to understand the complex reasons behind gender identity [00:51:15] adoption. I want to learn about the struggles and challenges that Detransition is face. And then finally, I want you to debunk the misinformation and lies spread about Detransition is all of these questions will take you on quite different journeys with the chat bot, and I think [00:51:30] they cover the main users and use cases that I imagine for it.
[00:51:35] Peter: If we go down, we see there's a section about deep research mode. Deep research gives you a comprehensive answer from generated meta [00:51:45] questions, which approach a topic from different angles. Deep research is slower and non conversational. For chat, leave it off. So originally when I launched the site, I launched it with only the deep research mode, [00:52:00] and I could tell.
[00:52:01] Peter: From how people were using it, that they really wanted to be able to have a conversation. Um, because Deran, uh, deep research mode does a really good job of answering a question and giving you a really comprehensive [00:52:15] answer through a deran lens, but it's not conversational. You can't actually talk to it.
[00:52:21] Peter: So phase three, after analyzing the stories and phase two, phase three, was to build a more conversational chat [00:52:30] bot, um, with an experience that people would kind of expect from an AI service. But let's have a look at the deep research section because I did put a lot of time into this, and I really like how it works.
[00:52:44] Peter: [00:52:45] Here we can see the main topics of questions that I've listed as starter questions.
[00:52:50] Stephanie: So we have, for those who are just listening, featured questions like, what does trans mean? Have trans people always existed? Is it true that only 1% [00:53:00] detransition are puberty blockers reversible? This is a great place, by the way.
[00:53:04] Stephanie: People are always asking me to respond to these questions, like the 1% regret rate, and my answer is always, look, I, I've read and heard the things that [00:53:15] debunk that, but I don't have the sort of brain that holds on to, you know, in this scientific research paper by this person on this date, they found that blah, blah, blah, blah.
[00:53:24] Stephanie: Like, my brain isn't good at retaining that. I'm more like a big picture person in psychology and family systems. [00:53:30] So I think it's great that people can go here. Can you just click on what happens if you click on that button that says, is it true that only 1%
[00:53:38] Peter: detransition? Okay, let's see what the response is.
[00:53:40] Peter: So, in deep research mode, it'll kind of expand your original question [00:53:45] into deeper questions. So here it expanded the question, is it true only 1% detransition into how do DET transits people distinguish between desistence detransition. Regret after surgery. How does each category affect the overall rate?[00:54:00]
[00:54:00] Peter: How do deran people view the claim that only 1% regret transition when long-term follow-up data are considered? What alternative percentages or ranges do deran people themselves estimate and on what evidence do their best? Those numbers? What do [00:54:15] deran people say about the commonly cited 1% detransition statistic.
[00:54:20] Peter: What reasons do deran people give for why official statistics might under count detransition? Which studies or surveys do detras people identify as the original [00:54:30] source of the 1% figure? And what methodological flaws do they point out?
[00:54:33] Stephanie: Wow, that's great.
[00:54:34] Peter: And it goes through and it, it answers each question step by step using data from Reddit, from the detransition experiences, and then it formulates a response [00:54:45] using all of the responses to the questions above
[00:54:47] Stephanie: which it looks like the bullet points there.
[00:54:49] Stephanie: Say who gets counted? What counts as detransition? Who never shows up in the data, putting it together. Follow up questions. This is, [00:55:00] this is really wonderful and comprehensive. Good job, Peter.
[00:55:03] Peter: Thanks. Yeah, I'm really proud of the deep research kind of aspect of this.
[00:55:08] Stephanie: Are you a therapist in need of continuing education that's not over the top woke?
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[00:55:32] Stephanie: Visit lisa mustard.com/pod courses. And use code some therapist to take $5 off of her $49 pod course bundle. Again, use code some [00:55:45] therapist@lisamustard.com slash pod courses. I'll include that link and coupon in the show notes for your convenience. Alright, now back to the show. I really think that for young people growing up with ai, you know, I say this as someone who's right on the cusp of [00:56:00] being a digital native.
[00:56:00] Stephanie: We got a OL when I was like 11, you know, it was a different internet back then. So, uh, I feel like generationally I'm in the right place to be a bridge between my clients and their fifties and sixties who are worried about their kids and their kids and their teens and [00:56:15] twenties. And, uh, I'm thinking about, you know, the digital natives who are growing up in the era of AI and how this is so much more comfortable and intuitive for them.
[00:56:25] Stephanie: It makes them feel, um. Like they have [00:56:30] that anonymous digital friend that knows everything. And I think there's a lot to critique about ai. We certainly haven't worked out all the ethical ramifications, but this is such a great use of ai and [00:56:45] I, I would really recommend to any parents in the audience that you couple something like this with your work in a program like RGD Repair, which comes with Repair Bot for, uh, new subscribers.
[00:56:55] Stephanie: Um, so RGD Repair comes with Repair Bot Unlimited, which is more [00:57:00] about the details of how to communicate with your trans identified kid. But this is one of the best tools I've seen for getting your facts straight, understanding the, the kind of rhetoric and the narratives, and then what [00:57:15] we actually know based on the experiences of Detransition.
[00:57:18] Stephanie: I just love the way that in deep research mode, you can start with one of these things that sounds like a straightforward enough question, but then it unpacks. How much more there really is to that [00:57:30] question and, and gives you the opportunity to go in any of those directions.
[00:57:34] Peter: Yeah. It's really needed in this subject because there are a lot of different perspectives and, and different aspects, especially to these [00:57:45] myths.
[00:57:45] Peter: Like another good one is I tried to put kind of the most common myths at the top. Mm-hmm. Have trans people always existed. This is a really common one. Mm-hmm. Um, I've actually been told that [00:58:00] my website is erasing indigenous culture, um, because trans people have always existed and this is anti-trans talking about how people detransition apparently.
[00:58:14] Peter: [00:58:15] Um, so I. For that person. I put this question right at the top, have trans people always existed?
[00:58:21] Stephanie: Ooh, I like, I like the first answer here. I just have to read this out loud. Deep research completed. And the first, uh, sub-question is from a det trans [00:58:30] perspective, why is retroactively labeling historical figures as trans considered ethically problematic?
[00:58:36] Stephanie: Oh, I love that because it takes a woke language of ethically problematic and turns it around.
[00:58:43] Peter: Yep. I won't go [00:58:45] through the other questions, but
[00:58:46] Stephanie: Well, let me just read one more of them. Okay. Go ahead. Scroll up. So you also have, how do detransition distinguish between historical, gender, non-conformity and modern transgender identity?
[00:58:58] Stephanie: What role do de trans [00:59:00] people believe modern medicine, language and technology play in making transgender identity possible?
[00:59:05] Peter: And then we had the full answer. Um, with some bullet points. The first bullet point is trans is a modern idea, not a timeless identity because [00:59:15] generally when trans people say trans people have always existed, what they really mean is gender non-conforming people have always existed in like cultures where gender non-conformity is a thing.
[00:59:27] Peter: Like in Samoa, I can't [00:59:30] remember the name, you think of the Farini, think it was ine. Yeah. They are men who perform the social roles of women and they, they put flowers in their hair and they, they dress more feminine, [00:59:45] but they don't literally consider themselves to be women. I think calling that the same thing as trans and like medically transitioning is quite different and there's a lot of other examples like that, I'm sure [01:00:00] through other cultures in history.
[01:00:02] Stephanie: So overall in your work on this project, I'm curious what you feel you've learned the most or what you've come across that's been the most surprising to you?
[01:00:13] Peter: The most kind of [01:00:15] surprising thing and the most saddening thing for me is that how many people around me are willing to ignore this, and they won't acknowledge it because it conflicts with [01:00:30] their existing beliefs about transgender identity.
[01:00:33] Peter: It conflicts with the narrative that, you know, trans people were born this way. I think it's really problematic that in my country, in New Zealand and in a lot of countries around the world, if [01:00:45] you go to your doctor and you say, I think I'm trans, they won't question that. It's basically illegal to question that, like, you'll get canceled.
[01:00:56] Peter: If you're a doctor and you, and you ask, why do you think you're trans? [01:01:00] Well, that's probably how doctors feel anyway, and you get put straight on hormones, they'll check your heart and do like some blood tests and stuff. But yeah, there's no like [01:01:15] questioning of why do you think you feel this way? What might be causing you to want this?
[01:01:23] Peter: Which I think is like the main thing that needs to be addressed. We need to recognize that for a lot of people, [01:01:30] there are underlying reasons that are causing them to adopt trans identities. People are being influenced by the internet. People are being influenced by their social circle. People are being influenced.
[01:01:43] Peter: By teachers who [01:01:45] ask kids who are gender nonconforming, what their pronouns are, you know, like pronoun culture is insidious in my opinion. If you are asking every nonconforming person what their pronouns are, what message does that send to them? It tells them, [01:02:00] you don't seem like a man, or you don't seem like a woman.
[01:02:04] Peter: And they'll internalize that and feel, feel that deeply. Um, so I'm really against asking people what their pronouns are. You know, if someone [01:02:15] asks me to refer to them a certain way, I'll respect that. Um, but I actually think it's harmful to be asking people what their pronouns are, you know? So I don't encourage that.
[01:02:26] Peter: Um. A lot of people around me do I try [01:02:30] to explain how I feel about that and maybe they'll listen, maybe they won't.
[01:02:35] Stephanie: What would you like to say to Detransition? You've spent so much time immersing yourself in their stories, in their aggregate qualitative data. [01:02:45] Um, I'm sure some are listening and appreciate all the work that you've put into, um, honoring their stories so that they're not suffering in vain.
[01:02:57] Stephanie: What, what do you want them to know?
[01:02:59] Peter: I would say [01:03:00] well done for speaking out. I know it must have been really hard to share your stories. Like the backlash that I've got socially from doing this project in what I'd consider to be like a really respectful way, [01:03:15] has been pretty strong. Um, so I can really relate to how it would feel.
[01:03:24] Peter: If all of your friends, you know, like I, I know what it's like to kind of go against the grain and how [01:03:30] this belief system can be so like impervious and ingrained in people. Um, so well done for, for getting the courage [01:03:45] to detransition if you felt like doing that. Um, 'cause it must take a lot of courage to actually pursue that once you're so deep in it and then actually sharing your story as well.
[01:03:56] Peter: That's amazing. And I hope we have more detransition is come [01:04:00] forward and, and share their stories and that ultimately we can get better care for people who experience gender distress. And, um, and we don't give affirming care as the primary option. You [01:04:15] know, it, it should still be an option I think for people who really, really need it.
[01:04:20] Peter: But I think there's. There's a lot of harm being caused by having it be the only option. So I'd like people to [01:04:30] actually wake up and, and listen to Detransition is so, yeah. Thank you for sharing your experiences.
[01:04:36] Stephanie: And Peter, what do you hope for the future, both the future of [01:04:45] drans.ai, the future of any work or collaborations that you might like to be a part of and the future of this issue?
[01:04:51] Peter: In terms of det trans ai, I would really appreciate some donations. So if any listeners are feeling generous, the site runs completely on [01:05:00] donations. I've spent a lot of my own money on it. Um, I don't have much money, so donations would be great just to keep the site running. Um, I'm gonna be appearing on a few more podcasts shortly, so.[01:05:15]
[01:05:15] Peter: I expect that the site's gonna be getting a lot more use and the more that people use it, the more money it costs me to run. Um, yeah. And on the future of this issue, like I [01:05:30] was saying before, like ultimately I want, I would like to see psychotherapy being used as the first step before putting people on hormones.
[01:05:42] Peter: And I would like to see the dismantling [01:05:45] of the born this way lie. 'cause it's not true, I don't think, you know, some people might want to transition and that's fine, but I think they really need to be more informed and there really needs to be a bit more [01:06:00] like of a therapeutic approach before we do this
[01:06:05] Stephanie: well and.
[01:06:07] Stephanie: It's, it is heartening to see what a difference based on the data that you showed us today, what a difference proper psychotherapy [01:06:15] makes. And I've spoken a lot on this podcast about. Uh, you know, sort of starting with my claim to fame in episode 11, talking to Helen Joyce about what happened when the trans rights activists tried to come after my license.
[01:06:28] Stephanie: And it really is a [01:06:30] chilling atmosphere or has been a chilling atmosphere out there for all the ethical therapists who want to help people with this issue, but are afraid of the weaponization of these misleadingly named conversion therapy bans. But I feel like people are getting a lot bolder, at least in the states right now, [01:06:45] um, where we have, you know, Charles versus Salazar going to the Supreme Court over this so-called conversion therapy issue.
[01:06:52] Stephanie: And I feel like a lot of people are taking heart right now, ethical therapists stepping forward to [01:07:00] provide the type of care that they know patients need, which is. Focusing on psychology first, getting to the root causes of issues and not affirming lies. I really hope that this is an emboldening time for all the good ethical therapists out [01:07:15] there who really want to help people.
[01:07:16] Stephanie: And I hope those who are listening, see that data that you showed us today, Peter, and go, wow, I really need to start helping people according to my conscience. So let's talk about where people can find you. Obviously drans.ai [01:07:30] is@dttrans.ai and that's where they can go for, it's indeed for, yeah, the chat features, the charts and graphs they can donate to there.
[01:07:36] Stephanie: And where else can people find you? I think you said you're on X.
[01:07:39] Peter: I'm on X. Um, my username is P James Steven. And yeah, that's [01:07:45] probably the best way to find me. You can follow me or post updates from time to time. Um, always happy to chat. If you wanna get in contact with me personally, just reach out through the website.
[01:07:57] Peter: Um. I love to talk about the subject. [01:08:00] Um, I've talk, spoken with a lot of different people since launching the website, which has been really great. I've spoken with researchers, I've spoken with parents. Spoken with Detransition. Um, it's been really [01:08:15] cool and I'm, I feel good about the work that I'm doing.
[01:08:19] Stephanie: Thank you so much for what you're doing, Peter, and for joining us today. It's been a pleasure.
[01:08:23] Peter: Cool. Thank you. It has been.
[01:08:26] Stephanie: Thank you for listening to you Must Be Some kind of [01:08:30] Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode. Kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice.
[01:08:39] Stephanie: And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist. [01:08:45] Special thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome theme song, half Awake and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, [01:09:00] ROGD, repair.
[01:09:03] Stephanie: Any resource you heard mentioned on this show plus how to get in touch with me can all be found in the notes and links below Rain or shine. I hope you'll step outside to breathe the [01:09:15] air today in the words of Max Airman. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:09:30] [01:09:45] world.