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Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
And welcome back to Essential Dynamics. Yes, that's right. This is Reed McColm. I have returned to hijack Essential Dynamics podcast because I've been so, I don't know, what is the word? Oh, dissatisfied with my absence.
Reed:It seems that Derek Hudson, guru of Essential Dynamics needs someone to come in and say, I don't understand a word you're saying. So that's me, and that's my role. I'm Reed McColm, I'm back to to hijack this podcast and to be your host through these crucial episodes. So I think I guess I should introduce mister professor captain Derek Hudson. Are you in the studio here, Derek?
Derek:Reed, it's so great to have you back, and I must say thank you for bailing me out.
Reed:Oh, am I'm delighted because I I have noticed that you've been able to navigate your way very well in the past o hundred podcast episodes. But I do feel like I could add a little guiding hand in explaining to the layman who you are, which is what I'm usually doing. And when I say I'm working on a podcast with Derek Hudson, I always say, really you get get ought to get to know this guy. So Derek, how are you? How have you been?
Derek:Oh, well, I've I've been great. You know, for faithful listeners will remember the last couple of podcasts. I talked about my adventures in the mountains, which was really fun. And it was very unusual because for those two episodes and probably two episodes only, I monologued it and there was just me on the podcast. It was a lot of work and I'm glad to have you here supporting me as I continue to think about, you know, interesting things and just wanna have a conversation.
Reed:Well, it honors me that you would allow me to come back into the studio with you. I it also amuses me that you think I'm here to support. Well, we shall see. Well, I absolutely, shall see. Derek, your last couple of podcasts where you monologue it and talked about hiking through the mountains, which apparently is really all you ever talk about.
Reed:Oh my gosh, more hiking. I I've been wondering how you apply the dynamics that you've researched so diligently to your personal life. Is that possible?
Derek:It's inseparable.
Reed:Oh, tell me more.
Derek:Well, if you think about it, this idea of a quest that we use so much in essential dynamics.
Reed:Sure.
Derek:Is really all about doing hard things for a reason. And we either do hard things for a reason or hard things are thrust upon us. And so you can just kind of think in a previous episode we said, well, choose your hard. And so these principles completely apply. It was fun to kind of isolate it in the laboratory of a hike where when we talk about people, path, and purpose, the purpose is the ridge, we can see it.
Derek:The path is right in front of us. And then you're with this group of people who each have their own, you know, experience and challenges as you're trying to get together. So those episodes I think really came together because life is a journey. And when you're on a journey, it's easy to see things about life. It's a little bit harder to talk about business systems and which is really the purpose of this whole podcast is to try and see things that are hard to see. That are that are in front of us. There is something that I want.
Reed:I don't don't understand why, but the hike is hike is it is probably the perfect metaphor for what you're trying to achieve. It makes it it makes it very relatable for me because you know how much I love hiking. Yep. Yep. And it makes it very understandable for the for anybody because we all in a sense are on our own hike.
Reed:I'm not sure whether our destinations meet, but I do find that a very very useful overarching metaphor for me to understand the business that you're trying to describe. And I don't think there's anyone in business or in entertainment or I don't think there's anyone who can't relate to the idea of putting one foot in front of the other and following your path or creating one.
Derek:Yeah. So today, can we talk about sort of a an aspect of the journey which I've come to learn about...
Reed:I think we should.
Derek:That's really compelling...
Reed:We've been talking. Think I think what we really boil down to is for me, I need to understand the difference between crux and climax in the things that you are relating to me. I I use those words. I know what they mean, in writing, in fiction, in in in entertainment. When I'm writing a a play or a screenplay, there's there's a moment where where the if I may, the protagonist has to make is at his lowest moment and has to make a decision to to continue on a hard path or to give up.
Reed:And it's not always that crystal clear, but it's but that's that's pretty much unanimous through through film and and literature. And then climax is what we're staying in the in our seats for. That's what we wanna see in the in the because we're trying to see the resolution of the of the conflict. Now, do I enter am I coming close to understanding what what Sure.
Derek:No. It's exactly right. And literature is a great place to find these things. And then I think maybe in our next episode, we'll talk about application to business, but let me just set it up with essential dynamics because essential dynamics, first of all, sets up this idea that we are doing something hard and meaningful. So we'll call that the quest.
Derek:And there's three elements. There's this purpose that we're trying to achieve. And there's this journey that we take. And there's, you know, we're with some band of misfits, some people that we pick up along the way. And so that's the purpose path and people of Essential Dynamics.
Derek:And as we've said so many times, each of those has these different dynamic tension. And so on the purpose side, it's not as simple usually because we have conflicting purposes. And so the way I kind of was reintroduced to thinking about the cracks is that the protagonist, sometimes the choice is between quitting and going on but often the choice is trickier than that.
Reed:Yeah, yeah. I did simplify it, I'm sorry.
Derek:Yeah, no, no, that's fine. So when we think about those great moments in literature where we know that was the moment of truth, it's not very hard sometimes to say, okay, well then what was purpose x and what was purpose y? And then and then how are they resolved? Because the whole point of purpose x and purpose y is that we actually need to accomplish both.
Reed:Alright. I I I wanna stop you there because I wanna know, you mentioned competing purposes. Mhmm. I want you to explain that a little further.
Derek:Sure.
Reed:So How can purpose x and purpose y be at crossroads?
Derek:So purpose X and purpose Y are often in competition, otherwise we just have one purpose. I've told this story a number of times on the podcast where my daughter thought that as parents we weren't doing a very good job when she thought the purpose was to be a happy child. But then on reflection, she realized we were also trying to help her be a happy adult. She didn't think we'd done that bad. So a lot of times in the moment you can't satisfy both purposes.
Derek:So the
Reed:So you live with an unhappy child in the hopes that they recognize their happiness as adults?
Derek:Well, I don't think any parent wants to have an unhappy child all the time. But in the moment where, you know, a life lesson needs to be taught, the child would rather be indulged but the consequences have to follow and things get They're hard for a bit and then they get better. But I mean, we can talk about doing some of these great stories that the crux comes because it's not an easy decision. It's not like, well, do I just carry on or do I quit? And it's not the battle just between good and evil.
Derek:It's obvious. It's the conflicting purposes. And one we've talked about before, because I think the scene is so great is in the movie version of the Fellowship of the Ring when Frodo is standing on the riverbank.
Reed:Okay.
Derek:And he's got the ring in his hand and everyone's looking for him but they don't realize he's back down at the boat and he's got a decision to make. And some people say, well, he's afraid to go to Mordor. No, that's not the decision. He's already made the commitment to go to Mordor. But the problem is he can't see a way of taking the fellowship to Mordor without having everyone die.
Reed:Right.
Derek:So he's like, how do I protect my friends and accomplish my purpose? And so he finally resolves, he's just gonna get on the boat alone and just go do it by himself.
Reed:Even though Sam - he can't do it without Sam.
Derek:I'm not sure Sam had a Purpose X, I mean, a Purpose Y. I think Sam only had one purpose.
Reed:Oh, that's interesting.
Derek:Yeah. "Don't you leave him", Gandalf said. "I don't mean to". Right?
Reed:Yeah.
Derek:Yeah. So anyway, that's that idea of Purpose X, Purpose Y. We are we're in constant tension between the two. It's what makes everything interesting. But in literature and in business, the crux happens when you get some ultimate resolution in the moment and it's not to just pick one and walk away from the other one.
Derek:It's like how do I figure this out?
Reed:There's a moment in well, I'm dating myself because I like old movies, but the Best Picture winner of 1979 was yeah, '78, '79, was Kramer versus Kramer. There's a moment in there where Dustin Hoffman, the father, has been a single father throughout the movie as his wife has left him and their son. He's been we've seen this relationship grow where he was a fairly inept parent, and certainly not used to the tantrums of a six year old or a five year old, and then he may at one point, because he was urged on by his lawyer, do you really wanna do this when it comes to a custody fight with his ex? He writes out a a on a big pad, foolscap, he said writes out two sides, one is pro and con, and one the pro side is supposed to be why do I, what do I win if I gain the thing I seek? I'm quoting Shakespeare there, but I, the pro side is why do I want to sue for my son's custody?
Reed:And then on the con side, what do I win if I lose? And and he writes out, he just fills the con side. The con side is full of negatives that he has sacrifices he has had to give up in order to be a single parent. And it's it it it's stunning how much sacrifice is necessary. And then the only thing on the pro side is I love him. I love him. I love him.
Reed:And I I guess that to me is well, that's the decision that character makes because then he goes to court, which is a separate separate thing he may not be in control of. He may lose that fight. And in fact, our as the court case goes on, our loyalties are divided as well because we also get to see the mother's point of view and and her desire to have him as in custody.
Reed:And well, I'm not gonna ruin the movie, but it I mean, it's a spoiler alert from fifty years ago.
Derek:So Reed, I don't think I ever saw the whole movie, but let me just highlight the one point. So the the crux for Dustin Hoffman's character is making that decision.
Reed:Absolutely. Absolutely.
Derek:To go with the hard thing. Yeah. And then Yeah. And then the climax of the movie is the final courtroom scene.
Reed:Right. It's it's the it's will he go on and what is his reason for going on? And it comes out it's entirely emotional, and that's enough.
Derek:So so let me share another crux climax movie from from the seventies that I think might be one of the best movie scenes ever to to highlight this and the difference. Rocky. Was that 1976? '75. '75.
Derek:That's right. Because it was the Bicentennial coming out. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Derek:Okay. So 1975, and the scene is it's the night before the fight.
Reed:And what is this Rocky you speak of?
Derek:Yeah, yeah, yeah. No one's seen it. It was a sleeper. So Rocky is walking the streets of Philadelphia because he can't sleep.
Reed:Right.
Derek:And he goes into the arena and the promoter's there and he says, I'm sure you'll put on a great show, which is super insulting. And then Rocky walks out and awesome music. And then he goes home to Adrian and he says, I can't do it. He says, he's gonna open my head. Like, who am I kidding?
Derek:Yeah. And it's a great line. And then he monologues and he sorts it out. And he says, I've got a quote here. "All I wanna do is go the distance."
Reed:Right.
Derek:"Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed. If Wthat bell rings and I'm still standing, I'm gonna know for the first in my life that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood." Yeah. So so Rocky gets very clear on his purpose, very late in the process. Right.
Reed:And as the I also wanna point out that it changes the movie's purpose. For the audience up till that point, we're going we expect him to win because of movie tropes. Yeah. That's right. But it changes what we're hoping for.
Derek:So he says he gets very clear and he says and he's and he like, he paints the picture. "That bell goes, I'm still standing. I'm gonna know something about myself". Right. That is the crux of the movie.
Derek:Now, if it ended there, we'd all be super unsatisfied. So then it have to have the fight, then it goes all the rounds and then, you know, then it ends. And then what's interesting, and I didn't realize this until I picked this out, is what does he do as soon as the fight's over? He starts calling for Adrian.
Derek:Right. "Yo, Adrian. Adrian."
Derek:Because she's the one who knows what his purpose was. Right. So the crux is the inner victory, the moment of truth that the person they decide, when they resolve the conflict and then that puts them out into the battlefield.
Derek:Yeah. And then the climax happens. In The Lord of the Rings, the climax is like eighteen hours of film away.
Reed:That was seventy six, not seventy five. Yeah. You're right.
Derek:Yeah. And in in Rocky, it just is a natural for the next morning he gets up, it's the fight, and the climax is the climax. It gets replayed all the time. But the really interesting part of the movie was the crux.
Reed:Yeah. It also changed the movie. It changed I really I think I can't stress how important it was that it changed the parameters of of our expectations.
Derek:So as I've been studying this, I found example after example after example of the separation of the crux and the climax. And there's just one other quote that I I wanna share before we get on to other stuff and forget. And this is one of the first times I saw this, it's in The Hobbit.
Reed:Okay. And it's the book. And this is Bilbo in the tunnel in the Lonely Mountain. The dragon's there - Smaug. Smaug is in the cave in the mountain.
Reed:And Tolkien writes, "It was at this point that Bilbo stopped. Going on from there was the bravest thing he ever did. The tremendous things that happened afterwards were as nothing compared to it. He fought the real battle in the tunnel alone, before he ever saw the vast danger that lay in wait."
Reed:Doesn't that sound messianic?
Derek:So that's the crux. Yeah. And Bilbo, he was the timid hobbit. He didn't like adventure. He decided to step in and then everything happened after that.
Derek:And the climax of the book is actually chapters after that. So that's actually, there's one more that I that I wanna talk about.
Reed:That You're really supporting yourself here. What's the other example here?
Derek:The other example, there's actually probably three or four of these because it's a long book, but in Les Miserables.
Reed:I've read Les Miserables.
Derek:Yeah. And the...
Reed:The guy was miserable.
Derek:Well, but you know more about the sewage system in Paris than you absolutely need.
Derek:Need
Reed:Yeah. It was I'm so grateful that I am.
Derek:So so in Les Miserables, this crux comes very early in the book. And that is where there's someone's been arrested and he's on trial and
Reed:The person is on trial, right? Yes?
Derek:Person's on trial.
Reed:And the mayor?
Derek:Jean Valjean is the mayor. And in order to save this innocent man from going to prison, what does he have to do?
Reed:Has to reveal himself.
Derek:Has to reveal himself. And then he becomes a fugitive because now they know that he's 24601 .
Reed:Yeah. Yeah. That also sets the action of the book in the present tense. A lot of the past has been prologue. What's past is prologue as Shakespeare would say.
Reed:And at that point, the the action kind of inevitably pull pushes toward the toward the conflicts that follow because he's a fugitive. Years go by though, many years go by. A lot of the book goes by, and and so what you're saying is the crux is his decision to live honestly?
Derek:To live honestly. And of course, the way the book plays out, and that's because of the gift that he was given from the priest. Yeah. Who didn't accuse him of stealing when he did. I I know what I wanna actually, there's another example that's that's milliseconds between crux and climax, and that's in Star Wars episode four.
Reed:A New Hope?
Derek:A New Hope. Wwhen Luke's job is to shoot the weak point of the Death Star. And he hears Obi Wan or whatever saying use the force. And so he puts his targeting computer away, closes his eyes...
Derek:And trusts.
Derek:And trusts the force for the first time. So that was the crux. And then, you know, boom happens like a minute later, two seconds later or something like that.
Derek:So why...
Reed:Yeah.
Derek:Why why is this pattern come over and over again? Like, you're a writer. Tell me why.
Reed:Is it is it necessary for the two for purpose x and and purpose y and both of them are on a path, but it can't be a parallel path? Is it necessary for them to cross at some point and create a spark likes like people are so easily able to do when they're stealing a truck in the movies is go in and and push two Well wires So
Derek:You know, and we'll get get to this more in the next episode, but we all live in unresolved tension.
Reed:Okay. Say that again.
Derek:We all live in unresolved tension.
Derek:And for example, I remember very distinctly a conversation with the client, a bit of a rant about how bad things were in their employment situation or their work responsibilities.
Derek:And then an explanation of what it would take to resolve that, which sounded like a great solution. And then the question we asked was, and why haven't you done that? And the answer was because it's hard. And so we go through hard things, but sometimes the decision at the crux puts everything in alignment so we can say, I can do a hard thing on purpose because of the result it takes.
Derek:Rocky says, I'm gonna go in there, get my head pounded. He's not gonna knock me down and I'm gonna know who I am for the first time.
Reed:Yeah. So we all live in unresolved tension. I want to I really want to explore that as much as possible. I'm really taken with that term that you have just just expressed and that's that's pretty great. I'm I'm reminded of of regardless of your politics, I'm reminded of Kennedy John F. Kennedy's talking about going to the moon and saying, we do not choose this because it is easy.
Reed:Yeah. We choose to do these things because they are hard. He was challenging the nation to go to the moon by the end of that decade, which he thought was possible, which at that time when he was speaking was not, and it he wouldn't live to see it, not knowing that he wouldn't. But still, that's that's he he inspired a nation with those words. We choose to do these things because they are hard.
Derek:Well, and and the genius of that, if you think about it, you know, sort of historically is it wasn't a war. I mean, was the Cold War, but in terms of like tremendous progress was made through World War II because it, you know, of necessity. But this was a more benign challenge that was accepted. And the tension is, you know, there's a thing we're trying to do and then there's limitations in the way or there are competing purposes. And when we get to resolution of them, that's when we see personal growth.
Derek:I have seen people, you know, people close to me have told me these stories where they've been mired in unhealthy practice, you know, it's probably an addiction And then they come out of it. And I remember a few conversations where I say like, like what happened? And they said "I made a decision".
Reed:And then push through.
Derek:And then and then yeah. But the the crux was I like the relief that this practice gives me. And I want this peace in my life the one takes away from the other and I made a decision. Then, you know, and I stumbled and fell and I got up again and I made a decision. And so I think that the crux in literature, we... Good authors present these dilemmas to people and they're way more interesting than just like fighting evil.
Derek:Like the battle that Bilbo fights with himself is more interesting than, you know, slaying the dragon. Not that Bilbo was the guy that does that. And so if I think about, well, just maybe I can recap this then, Essential Dynamics sets out this pattern. We can use it to look at all kinds of things. One of the things that I learned, not at the beginning, as I worked through this, is this idea that there is a crux and that it is inside and it's unseen and it's the inner tension that gets resolved.
Derek:And then that gives the protagonist the capacity to do the thing that everybody sees, which we call the climax. And I think maybe one of the challenges that we have in our society today is we want the climax without the inner resolve, the character building steps of finding out who you are and what is really important. And then moving and then you have the strength to move to a climax.
Reed:Sometimes that integrity that that is necessary takes years to develop. When you're called upon to make that decision, sometimes you're not even capable what your decision may be. Like, I could decide to be the president of The United States, but I'm Canadian. And so I've got a pretty major obstacle there, plus the fact that I'm obnoxious and disliked.
Derek:Doesn't stop everyone, Reed. That doesn't stop everyone. Okay. But let's go back to that for a second. I can't remember the quotation, man. I should look this one up, but it's in the crux moment. The character is revealed.
Reed:Sure.
Derek:I I have a I have another example. We should close, but there are just so many of them. Huckleberry Finn.
Reed:Okay.
Derek:He's been on the river trip with Injun Joe.
Reed:Right.
Reed:Oh, no, no, not Injun Joe. Was I'm sorry. With Jim, the slave, the runaway slave.
Reed:Right. And Jim has been captured. Huck can do something about it or he can...
Derek:He can rat them out, which he thinks is the right thing to do.
Reed:Because of the times.
Derek:Yes. And he writes the letter with the evidence or whatever.
Reed:Yeah.
Derek:And then what does he do?
Reed:He says, alright, I'll go to hell because he decides to help Jim.
Derek:He tears the letter up and and so that's the character and he thinks this is this is maybe the example of real integrity. Is he think that he thinks the consequences are eternal.
Reed:Yeah.
Derek:But he can't deny his humanity and friendship with Jim.
Reed:Which is terribly important in the sense that he has to come to that realization that that is right despite what society is telling him.
Derek:Right. Right. So real integrity, that's the crux. And then what happens after that, there's a climax. But so anyway, it's just around us.
Derek:You can't if you haven't thought about this before to our listeners, now you can't watch a Disney movie or read a novel, even a sports one without...
Derek:Especially a sports one.
Derek:Without... about figuring out the crux and the climax. So I think it's fantastic. I couldn't find this explained this way out there in available writing, so I thought I'd introduce this concept. What do you think, Reid?
Reed:Well, I think it's been a very exciting time, and I'm glad I made the decision to come back and and pull it out of you. Mhmm. I feel like I've been instrumental in your crux. So let's see how it how it comes to climax. Oh, captain, my captain, general Hudson, admiral Hudson, guru Hudson, professor Hudson.
Reed:counselor, I am very grateful for your wisdom and your willingness to share. That was exciting. Do mind if I stick around for a little while? I'm going to...
Derek:Let's do this again, buddy.
Reed:...because I'd like to hear how it resolves. And I just want to say to everybody, we all live in unresolved tension. Will Reed be back or will Reed again take his absence? Well, you just don't know until you tune in again to Essential Dynamics. I'm Reed McColm in the studio.
Reed:Derek Hudson is also in a different studio. Thank you Derek for a a lovely conversation. Everybody, by all means and ever, consider your quest.