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In this episode, Jessie talks with Nathan Brewer about fivefold ministry, APEST, and how apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers help us see the fullness of Jesus in the world. Nathan shares how these gifts are not just ministry roles or another personality test, but part of our identity, vocation, and wiring in Christ. Together they explore how our passions, frustrations, energy, and limits can reveal the way God has shaped us, and how communities can help one another grow into those gifts with clarity, humility, and joy.
Next Steps:
Next Steps:
- Subscribe to the Fivefold Newsletter to receive free coaching tips, inspiration and practical exercises.
- Order Nathan's book The Pulse of Christ: A Fivefold Training Manual
- Discover & Activate your Fivefold Spiritual Gifts with the Online Course (Enroll and start for free)
- Contact Nathan directly: Nathan@fivefoldtraining.com
Pre-Order Jessie and Julia's book Becoming Good News: Reimagining Discipleship Through Identity, Story, and Science
ORDER Jessie’s book, Ordinary Discipleship: How God Wires Us for the Adventure of Transformation
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Creators and Guests
What is Ordinary Discipleship Podcast?
The Ordinary Discipleship podcast with Jesse Cruickshank and the Whoology team is a journey through the fascinating intersection of neuroscience and narrative to ignite the disciplemaker in you. Delve into the transformative power of storytelling, exploring how our brains are wired for transformation and discover the extraordinary in the ordinary. From understanding the biological roots of storytelling to unlocking the secrets of spiritual maturity, each episode offers insights to empower you to become a more effective disciplemaker and deepen your spiritual growth.
Jessie Cruickshank: Well, hello,
and welcome to the Ordinary
Discipleship Podcast. I am Jesse
Cruickshank, and today with me I
have my friend Nathan Brewer,
who is calling in from Vienna,
Austria, and Nathan and I have
been hanging out together in the
five fold ministry space for
close to a decade, I think I
think that's how long we've been
inspiring each other and getting
up to some training shenanigans
in imagining what could be
possible to help people
experience the different aspects
of ministry, the different types
of roles and callings that can
be on people's lives, and what I
love about Nathan, and hopefully
will inspire him to share some
stories with us today, is that
he also loves the outdoors and
thinks about how can you teach
an idea about God or concept
about what it means to be a
child of God by being outside by
doing outdoor activities, so we
bonded over our love of outdoor
experiential education as a
classroom for formation, and we
have bonded over the five fold
ministry that is described in
Ephesians chapter four, but even
though Nathan lives in one of
the oldest, greatest cities,
biggest, like huge city, right
in in Austria, he is, he is an
outdoor guy, and so I live in
Denver. I'm also an outdoor
girl, right? So you know these
city dwellers who remember our
roots and remember our first
love of being outside. But
Nathan, give us a little bit of
your background, maybe explain
why you don't have an Austrian
accent, and catch us up with how
you came to be in in Vienna, and
looking at five fold ministry,
Unknown: so good. Yeah, thanks
for having me on, Jesse. It's
good to be here, and the journey
is something like this. I am
born and raised in the United
States, so that explains why I
don't have the Austrian accent,
but I've been here for 18 years,
which is kind of unbelievable to
say. I planned to come for one
year to do some sports ministry
work, and I had a job on ice in
San Diego, but God had other
plans. I joke with people here
that He tricked me. Soccer was
the bait to get me over here,
for an American to play soccer
in Europe, is like a dream, like
a European would love to play
basketball or baseball in the
US, and so it was a dream, and
he hooked me with that bait, he
got me over here, and 18 years
later I'm still
Jessie Cruickshank: here. Oh my
goodness, and so, so you did
soccer, you have, you have a
family now, and you've reason to
continue to stay over in
Austria.
Unknown: Met my wife here, so
we've been married 13 years. We
have two little boys, and
decided to make Vienna our home.
She's German, I'm American. We
live in Austria, and we live in
Vienna, which, like you said, is
a big metropolitan city, fairly
similar to any other
metropolitan city in the world,
the rest of Austria is
beautiful, with lakes and
mountains, and very outdoorsy,
as you hinted in the
introduction, but Vienna itself
is kind of a big city. The UN is
here, and it's a very
metropolitan international city.
So, originally from Springfield,
Illinois, born and raised in the
Midwest, then moved to San Diego
for college, studied business
and entrepreneurship at a
Christian school, and then moved
out to Vienna, Austria, after I
graduated.
Jessie Cruickshank: So, you have
a book that is on the five fold
ministry, tell us, tell us a
little bit about that. What
that, what even is, you know,
five fold, and that sort of
thing, and kind of bring us into
your world, into your expertise
on this.
Unknown: Oh, this is something
we are both very passionate
about, so you know, we're gonna
have to limit the time of this
podcast, but fivefold ministry
is three is an acronym we also
like to use as a pest, so if we
say a pest later, that is a
synonym for five fold. Those are
the five letters, a p e s t,
referring to apostles, prophets,
evangelists, shepherds, and
teachers, and it's rooted in
this idea that is explicitly
listed in Ephesians 411 but it's
laced all throughout scripture,
and I would define it very
simply, like this: it is five
types of people who show the
world who Jesus is. So, there
you have a definition in 10
words or less, five types of
people who show the world who
Jesus is. So, a short
description of the five apostles
are visionaries and pioneers,
they have a passion for the
kingdom of God, expanding the
kingdom of God. Prophets are
creatives, creative individuals,
and also challengers,
challengers of the status quo,
and they have a passion for the
heart of God. Evangelists are.
Laters and reconcilers, they
love to relate to all kinds of
people and also reconcile them
to the Father, and they have a
passion for the gospel and for
the lost. Then, fourthly,
shepherds are caring people that
love to create community, and
they have a passion for people.
And fifth, last but not least,
teachers are explainers and
enlighteners, they have a
passion for the word of God, and
these five types of people are
also gifts. They are gifts to
the body of Christ, or five
types of people who show the
world who Jesus is. And to tie
into our topic later, which
we're going to dive into more,
it's, it is your role, it is a
role in the kingdom of God, and
so it's very important to and
exciting to uncover, to
discover, and to understand.
Lastly, I'll just give a simple
example, for those of you who
love sports, it's like five
basketball players, where
everyone knows their role, and
they're trying, or they are
working together to win the
game, so very distinct roles,
you have a point guard, a
center, a power forward, a
shooting guard. I forgot the
fifth one, but five different
roles on a basketball team, and
they're all everyone knows their
role, and they're working
together to win the game.
Jessie Cruickshank: I think it's
worth saying that you and I kind
of come out of the Alan Hirsch
tree, you know of five fold
ministry and a pest, so that's
how we met, that's how we got
involved in helping each other
and creating usable tools and
and things, and so you have a,
you have a book that looks at
practices on and how how to
actually learn the functions and
the activities of the different
five fold in a very, very
accessible way, so how, so
you've been, you've been working
with churches and people, and
over in Europe, what do you,
what have you noticed about the
connection between people's
identity, like, like who God
created them to be, how they're,
you know, both the way they were
created and how they're growing
and becoming. What have you
noticed is the connection
between their identity and, and
a pest, and the a pest dynamic?
Is a pest just another
personality test? Is it
something else? Is it, you know,
like, like, how have you seen
those two work together in the
different populations that
you've had the opportunity to
observe and train and get into
shenanigans with.
Unknown: Yeah, yeah, it's a
great question. When we rewind a
little bit, people's first
association with these five,
fivefold ministry is that they
are spiritual gifts, which is
true. So, the first association
is people, and that is true.
These people are gifts, and that
is something actually unique to
these, as compared to the other
gifts in Scripture that are
maybe manifestations of the
Spirit, or given by the Father
in Romans 12, given by the
Spirit, First Corinthians 12,
Ephesians four, is given by
Jesus. So Jesus was all five
before He gave them, He had
them, so Jesus embodied and
exemplified all five,
demonstrated all five, and was
our, is our role model in all
five, and he then gave them to
us, his body to live out, and
since they are gifted to us,
they're part of our identity in
Christ, so he had them, has them
as his identity, and then he
gave them, embedded them into
us. They're part of our wiring.
In fact, the word in Ephesians
four one, this, this is getting
a bit nerdy, but this Greek word
classes, it's where Paul writes,
I urge you to live a life worthy
of the manner of your calling,
and this word calling is klesis,
which have, which has to do with
the word vocation and calling,
it's how it's how it's
translated in the English
scriptures. So these gifts that
Jesus gave are actually
identities, part of our calling,
or expressions of calling, is
maybe a good way of saying it,
extensions of the ministry of
Jesus, and these gifts are
people, so they are wired into
us, which has everything to do
with identity and vocation and
calling.
Jessie Cruickshank: So, if
they're wired into us, then,
like, I think I have, like, two
questions, like, that makes my
brain kind of go, "Oh my gosh.
Okay, so lots of implications,
both implications for, you know,
what does it does that mean that
I have to do this? Does what,
what does it look like for me to
walk forward in that wiring and
kind of like yield to it and and
participate with it, or what
does it look like when I don't
like when I'm like, I don't want
to be like that, I don't like
that about myself, and it
becomes something that we, we
try to move away from, so that's
like a lot of questions and a
lot of thoughts there. So, maybe
let's start with the first one.
What is it? How does that show
up in people's lives, and you
know, if they, they participate
with that part of their God
design, what can that, what can
that look like, what can. To do
for them,
Unknown: that is a million
dollar question. You see it,
Jessie Cruickshank: you only the
ease, only the easy questions
are here. Like that's all I do.
Softballs,
Unknown: we're we're starting
big and then digressing to the
easier ones, right? No, you see
it. How does it? How does it
show up in people's lives? Well,
you see it in people's
perspectives, you see it in
their passions, you see it in
what brings them joy and energy,
you see it in what actually also
makes them upset, kind of what
makes them angry. So, just to
give a few simple examples, like
if you ask a teacher to teach,
they're going to get really
excited because you give them
opportunity to do something that
they're gifted at and that they
love to do, and they're going to
teach with passion and clarity,
so you see it reflected in
people's perspectives on how
they see things, and their
motivations, their energy, their
joy, their passion. If you ask
an apostolicly gifted person to
come up with a new idea for xyz,
they're going to be bubbling
full of energy to be able to
create something and come up
with an idea to a problem or
solution, because it's naturally
what they're gifted to do. So,
you see it primarily, I'd say,
in passions, and also what they
get upset about.
Jessie Cruickshank: Ooh, unpack
that a little bit. Like, like,
how does.. how does what I get
upset about have anything to do
with my a pest gift mix?
Unknown: So, the things that
people complain about in church,
that's a good indication of what
their gift is. So, for let me
take an example of a
prophetically gifted person,
they usually get very upset at
the injustices in the world,
things like homelessness or
orphans, or any type of social
injustice, human trafficking
that lights a fire inside of
them because God's heart is, or
says in Psalms, you know, His
throne is the foundation of His
throne is holiness and justice.
He wants that heart to be lived
out in this world. So people
that have God's prophetic heart
want to then live out this.
They're upset about the
injustice in the world, and they
want to live out God's heart of
justice through fighting against
human trafficking, fighting
against various social
injustices. That's one or a
couple examples of how I see it
show up in people's lives,
through passions and through
what they get upset about.
Jessie Cruickshank: What about
what about people outside of the
church? Is this a church
exclusive kind of dynamic? I
mean, do you have to be like a
Christian? Do you have to be a
good Christian? Like, do you get
this gift as an award? Help us,
maybe understand, understand
that. Like, can we see it? Where
can we see it? Where do we see
it roll? Roll out.
Unknown: That's another million
dollar question. You're just
rolling them out. It's
fascinating, because once you
understand these five
archetypes, or these five types
of people, you really can
recognize how people are wired,
what their strengths and
weaknesses are, irregardless of
whether they're a Christian or
not,
Jessie Cruickshank: because
Unknown: that was one of your
first questions in the
multi-question for us. Yeah, so
you know the text in Ephesians
four says they're given
originally as part of Jesus's
ascension, so they're wired into
us at birth. I'm convinced of,
and you'll have different
opinions on this theologically,
and a lot of people have written
a lot of good books on fivefold
ministry, but what I see is
really they're exhibited by even
by non-Christians, or say,
pre-salvation via natural skills
and abilities, and at salvation
those natural skills are
supernaturally activated and
empowered by Jesus' spirit, and
the activities that one does
will be then for His glory, and
they'll be supernaturally
empowered by the Spirit. But
let's take a concrete, specific
example. You'll often see
apostolic people gifted at
starting new things in new
places, so someone who is an
entrepreneur starting a new
business or some sort of
venture, they have that wiring
in them to have vision, have
kind of an architecture for what
is not yet, and to have an idea,
have a vision for something, and
then start something and build
it up that has apostolic written
all over it. Now they might be
doing it for their own ego,
their own glory, their own
pursuit, but that is very much
an apostolic wiring, and the
same individual might start
something new and build it up,
but it's for the glory of Jesus,
and it's for kingdom purposes,
and that doesn't mean that
Christians have to do only
searching for my word here, like
only Christianese things, if you
know what I mean. Christians are
very much needed in the
marketplace to start, quote
unquote, normal businesses. So
those, or just a few examples of
how I would describe that these
wirings are part of our calling,
part of I. Identity part of our
wiring is the best word, whether
an individual is a Christian or
not.
Jessie Cruickshank: How does
that impact others, the
community part, the body part,
the business, you know, the
social societal part. How does
how does that role that I play
start to impact others, so let
me, maybe, maybe let me ground
this in a little bit of a, of a,
an autobiographical story. So I
was part of a ministry for a
long time, and we read Ephesians
four. We were like, there's a
template for us in there, we
didn't really understand, didn't
necessarily have a lot, all the
books. This was a long time ago,
so we didn't have all the books
that exist, so we didn't really
have anybody to kind of help and
teach us. All we knew how to do
was kind of listen to each
other, guess there were no
assessments, or they were really
bad, or something like that.
They just conflated all the
gifts into one single
assessment, so it wasn't that
useful or helpful or accurate,
but just in this, in these
conversations, we were trying to
figure out what did we bring to
the table uniquely in each
person, and how did we support
each person in that unique
design, and as a community, the
reason why we were asking these
questions is because we wanted
to support each other in who God
created us to be, and, like I
said, because there wasn't a lot
of input into that, is why I
ended up writing a book about
it, but, like, because we
learned a lot, so we just
listened and asked questions,
and we got a couple things
wrong, we, but we wanted to draw
things out of each other and
support each other in that
process, so that we weren't
trying to make each other into
something else.
Unknown: Yeah, yeah.
Jessie Cruickshank: And I don't.
So, so how, in these different
groups that you've worked with,
and the way that you've seen
this, how do you see that it
plays out in people's lives, in
the community, and in the group,
what, what would you have told
us when, when I was in my early
20s, and we were trying to, yes,
I don't know, pioneer, sort this
stuff through.
Unknown: Well, I'd say you're
definitely on the right track.
However many years ago that was
asking questions and doing it in
community together is an
essential aspect of discovering
our gifts. It does make a huge
difference, because it gives you
clarity for your role in the
Kingdom of God, which is a huge
deal. It gives, it gives you
clarity to know what you're
called to do, what direction to
head, gives you orientation in
life, and gives you a life in
the end full of purpose and joy,
which is what Jesus desires for
us. So, asking those questions
in community is really
essential. I would say, you
know, how does it show up in the
way we guide one another? One
thing with my trainings is it
gives us a framework for
healthy, strong teams, so
whatever group or healthy strong
groups you could even say,
whether that's, yeah, in
whatever context you're in. So
this gives us a framework, five
full ministry gives us a
framework for healthy strong
teams. It also just, on an
individual level, helps us guide
others, whether you're
mentoring, coaching, and
whatever capacity, if yeah, if
you are a mentor or a disciple
or a church leader or even a
counselor, if you know someone's
gifting, if you know they're
wiring, that gives you a huge
jump start understanding their
strengths and their weaknesses
and knowing how to guide them
and what questions to ask and
what advice to give if I
understand that you are
prophetically wired and gifted,
then I immediately have a
paradigm and a framework. I can
ask you better questions, I can
mentor you, guide you, disciple
you, coach you better than if I
have no idea.
Jessie Cruickshank: How do these
different gifts interact when
you have somebody coming
alongside you or you're coming
alongside somebody else, like,
how do they show up in our
discipleship and the roles that
we play in each other's lives.
So, you know, for example, I
think about how with my gifting,
there are certain things that I
pay attention to in the lives of
the people that I disciple, and
there are certain things that
make me very tired, and I'm
like, wow, I don't.. I don't
know, or even certain
personality types..
I'm
there's some that I just.. they
make me very tired. I don't want
to say that I don't like them,
because I probably really do
like them, but also I don't know
how much like emotional capacity
I have for their stuff, because
it just makes me tired, and so
is that like, is that like a
character flaw? Is that part of,
is that had to do with my a
pest? Like, am I okay, Nathan,
or do I need to repent? Like,
this
Unknown: is actually a
counseling. This is actually so,
are you okay, Jesse? That's
gonna be. Part two of our
podcast episode. Well, once
again, I don't know if I'm
heading in the right direction
here, but a few thoughts that
come to mind is the way we view
discipleship, classic
discipleship in at least the
Western world, is you sit down
one on one with someone and you
open the word of God, which is
of course very important and
essential, but it's a very
teacher-centric and
information-centric way to
disciple, and we need to really
expand our horizon to have kind
of five pathways for
discipleship, because how
someone disciples you is going
to be primarily through their
gifting and their lens, and that
influences then how you are
being mentored and discipled.
So, if someone is discipling you
and they're very high or very
gifted teacher, then they're
going to primarily focus 80 90%
of their discipleship on
teaching you the word of God,
which, of course, is fantastic,
but it's not the whole picture,
and if we want to create
holistic disciples that reflect
the fullness of Christ, which is
Ephesians 413 then we need to
expand our paradigm of
discipleship and our pathways of
discipleship to include all five
types and all five ways of
discipling, so maybe the lastly,
just to say a second example, as
opposed to just the teacher one.
If someone is going to disciple
you apostolically, it's going to
be very experiential based, and
it's going to try new things,
and it's going to get you kind
of out of the classroom setting
into the experience and debrief
type of paradigm and help you
learn by doing, which is often
how many apostles are wired,
Jessie Cruickshank: like for me,
so I'm apostolic prophetic, but
in teacher is very, very high,
which is why I like the brain
science and the nerd stuff.
Shepherd and evangelist are low,
and those people who know me
know that those are the things
that take a lot of energy, and I
love you, but you should also go
away at some point, like, like,
there. I would just watch these
other people who have this
capacity to sit and talk for a
very long time, and I'm
impressed by it, I'm challenged
by it, I do not possess it, and
I'm like, let's go, let's do a
thing, let's have an aha moment,
and let's go home, like, yeah,
like, like, there's an energy
and a punctuatedness,
yes,
to the way that that I like to
exist with people, but what was
interesting for, for me is that
when, when we were first
starting in this conversation in
my early 20s, when we were
looking at a pest, was that we
didn't really understand what
the apostolic was, and so I
would like to take those poor,
those poorly designed tests, and
it would come back that I was
prophetic, and we would have the
conversation in the community,
and they were like, oh, well,
you have an education degree,
you're a teacher, and they kept,
like, the group kept trying to
kind of name or see me in a way
that was true, but also not
exactly right, like it, like it
never really fit, it never felt
like it fit, and and it wasn't
until I met Alan in 2014 that he
unpacked with that, but the
Apostolic was in permanent
revolution, and I was like,
there it is, that's how I see
the world. I have an engineering
brain, and I think scale and
dynamic systems, and how do we
preserve the core, like, like it
really named how I thought about
the world for the first time
Unknown: through your soul, like
it gave language
Jessie Cruickshank: through how
Unknown: you're wired,
Jessie Cruickshank: but it, and
it helped me then understand why
we didn't understand the
apostolic, and why everybody's,
you know, when they were trying
to coach me or say, 'Hey, that
you should do this with your
life. I was just like, yes, sort
of. What do you.. it just.. I
guess my question here is,
there's.. I would expect that
there's people like that, that
there's other people out there
who don't exactly know who they
are, or don't have language to
share with someone else, and so,
so people around them would see
a piece of them or experience
something, and then it, but it
just isn't the whole of who they
are, and so that creates an
awkwardness in the identity
formation journey. So, if we're
supposed to help each other with
these gifts and receive them
from one another as that
community shaping what do we,
what do we do, or how can we
think about what it's off, or
when it doesn't fit right, or
when I've also known people who
are, who have their, their 5q
assessment comes back as
something, and they hate that,
they hate the answer that was
given, that's given to them. And
so they like, like, shut it
down, they shut down that part
of their soul, or they try to be
something else. I don't know,
like, what have you seen,
coaches? Apparently, this is a
counseling session. Help us out.
Unknown: Well, there's, there's
a lot there, there's a lot
there. This, we're gonna need
three sessions for you. No,
there's so many things I want to
jump into there, one of them is
going back to kind of your, your
profile, and how you said kind
of the shepherd and evangelists
are lower, and talking to people
for a long time, and caring for
them really drains you, and I
think this is a really key
insight, because you might
think, oh, there's something
wrong with me, I can't, everyone
else can sit and listen to
someone else's story for two
hours, but me, man, I tap out
after 20 minutes, and I'm, I'm
done, I'm so drained, and I need
to go home and recover. Well,
it's just part of how you're
wired, and that's nothing bad,
it's just different.
Jessie Cruickshank: So, you're
saying you're saying it's not a
character fly, just I just
want.. I just.. can we have that
in writing?
Unknown: I'm saying there's hope
for the point. I want to get at
is not only a different, and
everyone is different, everyone
is special. That's what I want
to say. No, what I want to say
is that it really is an
indicator of where you derive
your joy and energy
Jessie Cruickshank: from.
Unknown: This is a real key,
because so you're saying the
shepherding drains your energy,
that's not how you're wired.
Other things give you energy,
like taking people outdoors and
doing experiential learning with
them, and having them have an
encounter with God, and debrief,
and have the aha moment. That's
what really gets you excited and
gives you energy and joy. And so
that's a key indicator. So this
framework and these giftings are
really a massive key to our
identity in Christ, which is a
self-awareness piece. It gives
us huge self-awareness for our
strengths and our weaknesses,
what gives us energy, what
drains our energy, and as I said
before, your role one's role in
the kingdom. For me personally,
prophetic is my lowest. It's,
it's, it's super challenging. I,
I'm very weak in the prophetic.
I don't naturally challenge the
status quo or confront people or
regularly have prophetic
impressions. It's really
difficult for me to discern
ideas. On the flip side,
apostolic and shepherding are
much higher, so caring for
people in order to then equip
them for their gifts and their
calling, and sending them is
gives me joy and energy, and
I've started a lot of new
things, founded three or four
different things, and so
starting and pioneering new
things is something that I'm
gifted to do by Jesus's grace,
so huge level of self-awareness,
and once again, I don't know if
that answers your question, but
that's the thoughts that came to
mind.
Jessie Cruickshank: Well, so
then what do we do, like, if
we're, if it's us or someone we
know thinks that they're created
wrong for, for whatever reason,
like, like they're like, okay,
well, that's not what I want to
be, or I need to be something
different, or you're in a room
like I have been in rooms with
people who have High Shepherd,
and they're like, "Jess, you
need to be more patient, you
know? Like, like they see that
limitation, and you know, in
their love for me, coaching me
in that, increasing my
competency, if not my, maybe not
my passion for it, but at least
my competency in
it. Yeah,
Unknown: so two thoughts. One
would be that we need to give
clear understanding and language
to each of the five, so if
someone's assessment, let's use
an assessment example, comes
back as prophetic, and someone
doesn't want to be that, they're
like, oh, that's the worst. They
didn't want to be that at all.
My guess is that they've had
baggage with that, they've had a
bad experience with the
prophetic, or they just don't
really fully understand what it
means. So, to help people
reimagine, especially the
prophetic and the apostolic,
because those aren't so
commonplace, or they have some
stigma attached to them, at
least in the Western world, so
to give people clear language
and clear characteristics to
those two, especially apostolic,
prophetic, and even reimagining
also evangelists. I mean, when
people hear evangelists, they
just think of like this person
standing on the street corner,
like preaching, and we need to
reimagine evangelism, too.
Shepherding and teaching are
more commonplace and more easily
understood, but we unfortunately
give that label of pastor
shepherd to almost anybody who's
in leadership in a church, like
worship pastor, youth pastor,
senior pastor, even though they
might not be gifted at all
pastorally or separately, they
might be a very gifted
evangelist, but coming back to
the question, helping give
clarity of language and
understanding, so people can
understand what it really means
to be prophetically gifted, in
that example, or whatever their
gifting is. That gives so much
language to your soul, helps
understand how you're wired, and
really gives you, yeah, purpose
and calling and joy and clarity
for your, your role in the
kingdom.
Jessie Cruickshank: If there's a
thing that I worry about as
apostolic prophetic, it's it's
people who get stuck in false
narratives, false narratives
about who they are or who they
should be, and you know, like
being stuck, so that you, you're
not participating then, or with
the story that God is writing
through your life, which isn't
an, you know, we could, we
could, we could deep dive into
free will and the whole idea of,
like, can you, how do you resist
a sovereign God, and, and all
that. But that's a conversation
for another day. But it
definitely would, like, create
problems for you, right? So,
regardless of how much will you
think you have, and how much you
think you can resist God and
control your own life, anytime
you're resisting God and
despising the way that He
created you will create problems
for you, will create friction,
will create an unsettledness,
will create a lack of peace, and
yeah, so, so these false
narratives that we can be stuck
in around five fold. What do
you, what would you do? How
would you coach somebody if you
were talking to them, and they,
and it seems to be apparent that
they have some of these false
narratives, they're either not
quite sure who they're created
to be, or they're fighting that
design and thinking, and
thinking that they should just
be more patient, and well, I
mean, they probably should, if
you think you need to be
patient, you probably should be
more patient, but like that's a
lesson that that shows up every
time you need it, but do the
Unknown: pray for patience,
because then God gives me
situations where I have to be
patient, you know.
Jessie Cruickshank: Exactly,
exactly, but like, yeah, so
they're they're judging, they're
judging that design as being a
character flaw, instead of maybe
an underdeveloped capacity or an
unrefined, you know, shadow
side.
Unknown: I'll take them, take
them back to Jesus, and also
guide them through the
scriptures, give them some
concrete examples. Okay, what is
this? What did this look like in
Jesus's life? How did he live
out apostolic, the prophetic,
the evangelistic, the
shepherding, the teaching. If
he's our role model in all five
and he's the root of our
identity, then let's look at how
he lived them out, and that
gives us specific examples that
creates narratives in our mind,
or maybe replaces false
narratives to see who Jesus was.
So unpacking who Jesus is, and
his character, and his
competencies, and giving
specific examples in scripture
of Jesus, and then also others.
You can, there's a lot of other
examples to point through, point
to in scripture that gives us
examples, and then even beyond
that, giving healthy, fruitful
examples of someone in their
circle to say, hey, see Jesse
Cruickshank, she's prophetic,
and she's not that weird, right?
So that gives them a normal, you
know, example of someone who
exemplifies a gift in a healthy
and mature way, because it's
hard for us sometimes to say to
look at, like, okay, Priscilla
and Aquila in the Bible, or
Paul, or Jesus, it's like so far
from our real life in 2026 but
if you can point to someone who
exemplifies it, not in a perfect
way, but in a fairly mature and
healthy way, it takes a lot
away, a lot of the stigma, and
then allows that person to grow
into, like, really grow into,
like a plant, just grow up into
the what Jesus has called them
to be.
Jessie Cruickshank: I love, I
love the idea of thinking about
people in your proximity, and
just for the record, like I died
laughing when you said that,
because everybody says I'm
weird, but hopefully they don't
say I'm unhealthy, but like, but
the idea of having those role
models around us to help us have
an imagination for what, how
that, how that gift could play
out. I think both positive and
negative, you know. I, I've
experienced when I have these
conversations around five fold
in a pest with people that
they've seen some pretty bad
examples, which is why they
don't want to be like that,
right? So there's almost this
inner vow of they saw somebody
who did it poorly, and it really
impacted them, and so, and then
that pain point thing, like you
had discussed and mentioned
earlier, you know, we, we get
upset about the things that are
done poorly, so they saw
somebody who did it poorly, and
they were like, I don't want to
be like that person. Yeah, and
I've seen, I've seen that a lot.
So, just I like that. I like
that idea of looking at the role
models and different people in
our life to see what we should
and should not, what healthy and
unhealthy looks like, or what
the shadow sides of these
different capacities look like.
Like, if people want to learn
more from you, again, you, you
have a way of explaining this
stuff in a very grounded,
accessible kind of way, and, and
maybe there's somebody out there
who's listening, is like, wow,
and we need, we need more of
that as part of our identity
formation to unlock the gifts
that Jesus has put in into the
body in our group or in our
community, where could they find
more information about that? How
do they get a hold of your book?
Like, like, give us the little
commercial.
Unknown: Yeah, thanks for
asking. It's one on the website,
fivefold training.com I guess we
could put some of these links in
the below the podcast episode,
but I would recommend as a
starting place to subscribe to
the five fold newsletter,
because you receive free
coaching tips for how to
discover and grow in your gifts,
inspiration, stories, practical
exercises. So I send out a short
- it's about a three minute read
- short five fold ministry
teaching coaching every Friday,
five fold Friday newsletter, and
then I think the next step would
be to take the online course and
created an online course called
Discover and Activate Your
Fivefold Spiritual Gifts, and I
think that's a really great way
to, because it's self-paced, can
do it from anywhere in the
world, about 20 minutes a day,
or however often you want to do
it, but videos, reflection
questions, really to chew and
digest how Jesus has gifted you,
and that really, I think, will
unlock a lot of people's
potential and unlock clarity for
people's wiring, those would be
the tips, and the book is also
available on the same same
website. It is a practical
training manual, so there have
been a lot of great books
written already on this topic,
and I see my book's niche as a
compliment for learning by
doing, so it's actually 25
practical exercises, five
apostolic, five prophetic, five
evangelistic, five shepherding,
five teaching things you can do
yourself or in a small group or
in a training school, whatever
your context is, five practical
exercises to learn by doing,
it's like if someone were to
give you five different sports
to try out, how do you know if
you're good at them? What you
try them out, you try them out,
and you learn by doing, and you
discover very quickly which ones
you're good at, which ones
you're gifted at, which ones
bring you joy and energy, and
that's one one key way to
discover how you're wired. So,
the pulse of Christ, it's called
a five fold training manual.
Jessie Cruickshank: The pulse of
Christ, I love that. And, and I
just want to give a shout out.
If you want, if you're not sure
what your gift mix is, and
you're interested in doing that,
take the 5q go to 5q Central,
five number 5q letter Q
central.com for the A PES test,
there, and snag that. It'll give
you some. It's just really a
robust report. It'll give you
some great information, and a
place to start as well. So,
Nathan, it's always good to hang
out with you. We should, we
should do this live sometime.
So, if you want to donate to me
going to see Nathan, feel free
to go to the hoology.co website,
donate byline, go to Vienna. I'm
just kidding, I'm just kidding,
but I mean, sort of
Unknown: need to get you over
here, that would be fun,
Jessie Cruickshank: that would
be fun, that'd be beautiful.
Well, I just, I just appreciate
you so much, and appreciate the
way that you, that you teach,
the way that you train, the way
that you make things.. yeah,
accessible. I've already used
that word a lot, but that's
the.. that's just really how it
feels. So, you're talented and
gifted, and it's an honor to
know you,
Unknown: yes. Likewise, I can
repeat everything back that you
just said. Appreciate the
opportunity to have this
conversation, and everything
that you've already contributed
to the body of Christ, and
everything that you will
contribute. I'm excited to read
your upcoming book as well.
Jessie Cruickshank: Yes, book
book launch is coming. We'll,
we'll have more information
about that on the website and in
the newsletter, if you want to
get involved in that, but
Becoming Good News launches
august 4, so excited about that.
Well, Nathan, thank you for
being on the Ordinary
Discipleship Podcast. You can
listen to more podcasts wherever
you get them, they're out,
they're everywhere. I think this
is season 10, that might be
wrong, but there's a lot,
there's a lot out there. We've
been doing this for a few years,
so get the Ordinary Discipleship
Podcast wherever you get your
podcasts, and if you want more
information about hoology, you
can go to w h o l o g y.co and
if you want more. Information
from Nathan. You can go to Five
Full training.com and we'll see
you next time.