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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
I'm curious what like, the job market has changed in the last few years, maybe even even the last year or two. They actually choose, like, after COVID. Like, the the shift in the market, especially in tech in general, has shifted. Massive layoffs as AI kind of it's used to replace the kind of shrink teams. How would your strategy change today?
Nick:I think it would be very different. That's why I said
Tyler:We are officially live.
Nick:We are officially live. Exactly. I mean, this is just an experiment. Did you ever get laid off as a designer?
Tyler:Twice.
Nick:How was that?
Tyler:I've the first time, I didn't like it at all. I think both times I didn't like it at all. I'm like you never do. And then the second time, I felt it coming. Just I was in a situation that I was I joined a sinking ship, so I kinda felt that one coming.
Tyler:Mhmm. So probably less so on the second one. How about yourself?
Nick:Yeah. A little bit higher numbers. I had a I had a rough start of my career, I think is a fair way of putting it. Okay. Yes.
Nick:But for for different reasons. So it was very a very good way to learn, actually. For example, I've been part of a company that got acquired, And then because I was very junior and and new in, it was also easy to let go of me. So that was all out of my control, just bad luck. Been at startups that ran out of money, but also just ended up at a company where in the beginning, it all looked very promising and and nice and high energy.
Nick:And then later on, it turned out that there you know, the fit just really wasn't there. And then, you know, we just decided to, at the end of the contract, do not extend. So, yeah, a little bit of everything, but learned a lot. And I've seen a lot of differences between each way of being let go. So, yeah, sadly, lots of experience there.
Tyler:And what is your because I'm I'm I'm harking back to, like, the first situation. What is like, what goes to your mind or what did go through your mind after or and how be I will just paint me the picture of the first one. Like, what maybe less of, like, during the actual firing, but, like Mhmm. Maybe the minute after. What's going through your mind?
Nick:Well, I was very junior and very new and fresh out of school, so I didn't really understand this. I didn't see it coming. So I was I was shocked, to be honest. So the the minute after, it did not much happened. The day after, more.
Nick:You know? I was still living at home. You know? So I went home and told my parents, you know, like a like a young kid, basically.
Tyler:You know?
Nick:But it it did feel good that my manager and his, let's say, right hand man, you know, this is, like, the the second in command, they really tried to keep me on board. A lot of credits to them, but they I don't think they had the power. Like, they were getting acquired too. So the the company that would own us, you know, they had all the, you know, the final say and the power. So nothing they could do.
Nick:So, yeah, it was very annoying, especially after spending months getting that first job. You know? So I was afraid that I would be jobless for a long period of time, just like the first time. Right? It took me, I think, eight months after graduation to, you know, to get that first job.
Nick:So I was like, well, going to be another eight months before I have some money coming in. You know? So, you know, life's on hold and all that stuff, but didn't get that far, luckily. You know, second time was easier.
Tyler:Okay. So what was the what was the plan? Like, the shock wore off. Like, you're
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:And then it's like, well, I'm not gonna not have a job. I need to go find one. What was the what was the mindset, and then what was the strategy to get that next spot?
Nick:I I think back in the day, it was still a good idea to just go to job boards. I'm not not sure what your experience is with job boards, but what I'm reading online is that it's probably not the the best way to go. I'm not sure, but back in those days, like 2016, 2017, about ten years ago, that was the way in. And I got lucky, basically. I had a job in two months because I hit it off with the founder of a startup.
Nick:We had a there was a startup in music, and I already had some experience designing some music things because, you know, very first website I did, very first two websites I did were for local musicians, you know, bands and, you know, people I knew. My portfolio basically was work from that first company and my, you know, quote, unquote, baby freelancing work, you know, for two local bands. So, you know, that overlap really helped me to, you know, get a job quickly by just going to job boards, basically.
Tyler:Okay. And
Nick:I imagine it wasn't today, I I imagine.
Tyler:Yeah. But I imagine it wasn't the the first job posting you applied to. Like, what was the No. I'm curious what I'm curious what the volume looked like. Like, how were you applying to every company in the sun?
Tyler:Did was there a strategy behind it? Mhmm. Was it a type of was there a specific type of work that you're looking for?
Nick:I was a bit arrogant in a way that I applied for senior roles even though I had one just over one year of experience, and I kept the numbers low on purpose. I really don't think sending out hundreds of applications is good for your sanity and basically just a waste of time. So I I think on average, one application a day, basically, or let's say five a week. Yep. And then at some point, you apply to everything that looks interesting.
Nick:So then you you your daily routine becomes checking your inbox, checking the job boards if anything new comes up. And if not, that means you're off for the day. And you can spend your day networking, making phone calls, working on your portfolio, learning, that kind of stuff. So, yeah, really keeping the numbers low.
Tyler:Very cool. Interesting. Strange, right, though. You think that high volume equals high results, but I guess you were very purposeful with the Yeah. I guess the fit matched, and then you are kind of quite confident that whoever you're applying to, you're probably the top of the list or the pile.
Nick:Yeah. Well, there's there's there's risk and a bit of inexperience there, you know, because if you have, you know, your first interview and you think, yes. This is going to be it. You become tunnel visioned and hyper focused on that one, but then there's still a very good chance that you are not going to be the one that they pick. And then you have to start from scratch, like, completely with nothing in the pipeline.
Nick:So that wasn't smart. That's why I said I got really lucky. Like, one of the very first few attempts resulted in in a in a job offer, so I would probably not do it that way if I would lose all my work today. I would always even if I have a job interview lined up, I would still keep applying just to make sure that I will not have I will not fall back to that starting point.
Tyler:Yeah. I'm curious what like, the job market has changed in the last few years, maybe even even the last year or two. They actually too. It's, like, after COVID. Like, the the shift in the market, especially in tech in general, has shifted.
Tyler:Massive layoffs as AI kind of re is used to replace the kind of shrink teams. How would your strategy change today?
Nick:I think it would be very different. You know? That's why I said, like, 2016, 2017, that was, like, way before COVID and also way before that big, let's say, you know, tech job boom that you had with all the boot camps and everyone moving digital and that kind of stuff. So I'm afraid that today if you would go the job board route or just, you know, online, you know, applying for jobs, that you are one out of a 100 people at least applying, and then it's very likely that you will be invisible. That's probably not the way to go.
Nick:And then I also don't want to be one of those generic, you know, LinkedIn people who is all about networking. You know? You You have to talk to people. Although I do think that's true in a way. You just need especially if you're entry level, you just need a lot of luck.
Nick:Yep. It's a very sucky thing to say. I'm very aware of it. It's like, I have it easy. You know, I have ten years of experience, plus you also.
Nick:But if you are fresh out of school, you are losing your first job. I think it's a very tough place to be in today.
Tyler:Yeah. I agree. Yeah. It's if we're to frame it as, like, the junior, like, how would they kind of eat the market? What's what's becoming more true, not just in design, like like, cross engineering like, design and engineering, it's just, like, the junior role is disappearing, which is an interesting one to to kind of notice as more as the market has become more saturated, like, people are just companies are allowed to or they they have the fortunate, I guess, that's the way to say it, the ability to hire mid to seniors without having to pay top dollar for it, which is an interesting challenge for a junior to kind of come into the market.
Tyler:So maybe we can talk about some strategies there.
Nick:Yep. I think that's a good idea. Do you have any any suggestions? I have a few. I don't want to take up all the spotlight.
Tyler:Yeah. A couple just looking back to, like, my strategy because it wasn't too long ago, maybe, like, three years ago, I was I was laid off. And to be fair, I was also looking to leave that company. So I think I was more angry that that they let me go first.
Nick:Your your ego talking. Last week, you had my ego with someone made a design change, and now Yes. Now you're
Tyler:Yeah. Exactly. But I think part of that also is, like, I have, like, a wife and kids. Like, having to kind of search for the job, there's a additional layer of stress Yep. That that add to my situation.
Tyler:But, however, the I think what worked for me was I think it was a volume game, but then to your point, the volume out equals volume in of of rejection letters, which could be quite taxing on your kind of, I guess, stress levels or or your confidence if you're kind of Mhmm. Actively applying and then every other day. Just like, sorry. We we are not moving forward. But I think what what worked for me is is being very volume high just because I have twenty four hours in a day and I have nothing else to do.
Tyler:But means but very tactical in terms of, like, how I'm applying. So I'm not just hitting the classic LinkedIn apply for me button. I'm actually looking at the job description, looking through all the details, looking at the company, looking what the requirements are, and then crafting two things, which is number one, my resume, and number two, my cover letter, which I think both are I think the cover letter, the second one, is still important these days. It might help help you kinda separate from the pack. So I was I'm crafting if you I actually have an old Figma board, which act it's, like, 25 or 25 plus different resume and cover letters because I crafted each resume and cover letter unique to the company that I'm applying to.
Tyler:So I'm looking I'm trying to make sure that my resume maps directly to the the job posting. Like, they're looking for these set of skills. These are the set of skills that I'm hiring for. I've been working templates here like yourself, so I have more opportunity to kind of rejig. But I'm basically mirroring back the perfect resume for that person.
Tyler:Yep. And then added to that is the cover letter. So what that is for me is just going back. It's looking at the requirements, but just going back to prior experience, like, how would I reflect I'd be best for this position based on the experiences I've already had? So I'm looking at, like, what they're what they do, how that would map to my previous experience, and incorporating that into the cover letter as well.
Tyler:So I'm doing high volume, but I'm very slow and purposeful and mindful of what how I'm giving those two collateral pieces.
Nick:Yeah. And I imagine when you say make sure everything mirrors the job opening, that goes to a very detailed level. Like, when they are talking about a UX slash UI designer, that's the title of your resume. When it's UX and UI, it's also the title of your your resume. Right?
Nick:Exactly. This this this the slash or the end, like, it's each character, like, it's it's perfectly matched.
Tyler:Yes. Exactly. And I'm even editing out stuff that I think wouldn't get me there. Like, in a in a a couple roles ago, I was the director of UI UX, and if I'm and that was a point where to be transparent in my career, like, oh, I hit this milestone. Great.
Tyler:But then I also love the execution part, the IC part. So I'm like, you know what? I don't really like this path. Let me go back to the IC path. So there was that fork in the road.
Tyler:I didn't really like it at the time, and then I had to move forward. But I found that having that job title just deterred recruiters or, like, the hiring manager from hiring me. It's like, you may be overqualified. And that happened
Nick:Oh, yeah.
Tyler:During during an application. So I met with HR. They actually pointed out to me, hey. Are you gonna be like, the from their project, are you gonna be happy with just an IC role when you've you've had this kind of design leadership role? I was like, oh, interesting.
Tyler:Yeah. So moving forward, I just downgraded the title to product designer, and that helped move forward. Like Smart. Like like, every little thing counts.
Nick:Yeah. That's very smart. So, you know, I I think in discussions online, people usually have this versus thing. Like, you either are very purposeful in how you apply or it's high volume slash spray and pray. Yeah.
Nick:You're saying it's more like a hybrid. Right? You are doing lots of applying, but slowly. It doesn't mean generate generate, send, send, send, and just just see what happens. It's very purposeful.
Tyler:Exact exactly. Like, I I treated it like I mean, there was a bit urgency on my side, but, like, I treated like a full like a nine to five job. Right. It was like the first half was research and discovery. So, what are all making a list of all the different places I wanna apply to.
Tyler:And then second half of the day, crafting those those two collateral pieces.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:So I have I have the full day. I mean, it extended beyond nine to
Nick:five to be to be fair.
Tyler:Of course. Like, after I was you know? But it's just making sure like, you can do the high volume game, but if you're just, like, to your point, spraying and praying with a generic, like, you're not giving yourself the best best chance. Like, volume doesn't equal results. It's it's the quality of the volume.
Nick:Yeah. I think so. I think so. You know, it's something it's almost like a like war paint or your your battle scars where people like, well, I applied 500 times. You know?
Nick:But I don't think that's something to brag about. I think that's it means you should have applied 450 times less. And after 50 times, you should have taken a step back and see see if you can figure out why it doesn't work after 50 times.
Tyler:Yeah. Of course. Because, like, if you're yes. The bragging about the number doesn't matter. I mean, that means there's insights.
Tyler:Like, if you're complaining about, like, I applied and woe is me, I didn't get accepted after 5,500 plus. Like, you didn't learn anything along the way. Yeah. Like Yeah. There's there's there's ways to figure out why you didn't move forward.
Nick:Do you think it's possible, like, time scheduling wise and and also, like, mental energy wise to prepare for your stuff while still on a job? So with the the goal being that you are you have less stuff to do when you actually lose your job. So, you know, update your templates, update your portfolio while on the job, etcetera.
Tyler:Yeah. I think what I didn't want I think my suggestion is always apply in parallel, upgrading your your portfolio. I think I took the week to give myself the ability to kinda update or refresh my portfolio, but that was the hard deadline. Like, do as much as you can in the first week. After that, it's applying.
Tyler:And I can also Yep. Do any upgrades as as I'm moving forward. Mhmm. Historically, we've as designers, just, like, spin and spin and spin and Oh, yeah. Never and True.
Nick:Oh, yeah. That's very true. Yeah. So I'm I'm I mean, I'm thinking Usually, when you're busy, it's something that people say. If you do not have a portfolio, it probably means you are busy.
Nick:But it's perhaps smarter if you can, you know, if you have the mental capacity and and and time in the weekends or whatever to have your like, some sort of updated resume, cover letter template, or your portfolio updated before you get the bad news. Yeah. Because then that's one week you don't do not need to spend on your portfolio. You can start applying from day one.
Tyler:Yeah. That's hard. Because it yeah. It's true. Like, when you're busy, like, what?
Tyler:Why am I updating my resume? You feel confident. You're you like the team you're on or the project you're working on. Mhmm. Why update?
Tyler:But, like, the additional benefit is that you get to reflect on the wins you've done. So if you're Mhmm. Updating your resume every, let's say, every quarter. Let let's not say every month. Yeah.
Tyler:For example. Able to kind of you kinda see what you did the last three months. It's like, you can update your LinkedIn, your resume, and say, oh, actually, I did that. You're you're building your confidence. Yeah.
Tyler:Because because what happens when you get fired inevitably is, like, your confidence gets a a massive dip. It's a massive hit. It's just like oh, it's like but then because because you've kind of you've been building your confidence by updating your resume every every quarter, you're you're more self aware of, like, the value that you're giving because you're writing it down. It's almost like a journaling experience. Like, I'm journaling my wins, and I'm updating my collateral along the way so that if I get if I get fired one day, yes, it sucks.
Tyler:But I'm confident based on because I've been reflecting all this time that I'm able to get the job that I want.
Nick:Yeah. Smart. You know, I I do not do that myself. You know, I'm I'm now preaching that you should be up to date at all times. I've been hopelessly, you know, outdated on my websites and and and everything while on a day job for years.
Nick:You know, only this year and last year, I I really sat down and and updated things in advance. So perhaps not the nicest thing of me to recommend, but that's also a bit of reflecting on my own. Like, I should be better there. One thing I think is a good bit of advice is to have an online resume. So I have a CV subdomain on my website.
Nick:You know? So it would be cv.your name or whatever your domain is .com. Mhmm. Or I've also seen people do in a nutshell dot your name dot com. Okay.
Nick:You know, where it's just very high level what you're doing. And at the same time, it teaches you a bit of coding as well. So I have a coded version of my CV as a web page on that subdomain. It's only one page, you know, just literally the CV. It has a last updated on certain date at the bottom.
Nick:Mhmm. It has a email and a WhatsApp button at the top and a download as PDF button. So whenever someone reaches out to me, like, hey. Do you have your CV? Like, I do not have to browse my computer.
Nick:I can just copy paste that subdomain link, which is your very high speed. It always makes a good impression. I've had people literally say wow multiple times, like, never seen that before. So good impression plus you learning how to build that, you know, build that system for you is also a good plus. So it's it's it's a win win win win situation across the board, and that's that's nice weekend projects, I would say.
Nick:Like, it's not too much work, and it's easy to update. So you have more wins.
Tyler:There you go. I always I'm always impressed with, like, like, when you your WhatsApp link strategy. And it's always like, that's an interesting one. It's like a quick WhatsApp me.
Nick:You know, downside is that it's, like, the the bar is so low that people rep you know, send a message. You have a good talk. They're very happy. And then they're like, oh, you know, they feel a bit maybe they feel a bit of shame, you know, taking up time. I don't know, but that I guess.
Nick:And then they're like, oh, you can send an invoice for that one hour just just to consultancy hourly rate. Send it over. And I do, and then they don't pay. So so it happened multiple times that I said, send it over, and I've I did. And, yeah, always the same thing happens.
Nick:So maybe it's an empty gesture that I foolishly fell for. I don't know. But Yeah. Bit of on the other side of the coin that I wanted to share you with you with that WhatsApp strategy.
Tyler:Interesting. But I think it's like a like, I'm thinking about it as like a funnel. That's probably, like, the best, like, CTA for a resume landing page. Because essentially, you're just talking about how great you are and then book me now.
Nick:Yeah. Call me now. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. So, I mean, that's that's something you can can you set that up once, and then you can automate it. Because if you have that one block of project experience with the name and the date and that paragraph of what you did and perhaps a logo or whatever, like, it's copy paste, change the text, commit commit, and sync, and then you're done.
Tyler:Yep. And then you can watch your conversion rate on Google Analytics. What's your conversion for resume slash button click?
Nick:Yeah. Well, I not really take a look over there, but I should perhaps. I don't expect lots of people to get over there because, you know, the low main rating isn't that strong, but just to wow a recruiter by sending that over is is worth it. Yeah. Do do you have any any more of those tricks?
Nick:You know, having so having your CV subdomain is one.
Tyler:But Yeah. There's also the I don't know what what the maybe you can refresh me. Just like this this format that your resume has to be
Nick:in Mhmm.
Tyler:So that the robots can there's, like, part of the, like, part of the application process is there the the people team or the HR team has some automation setup where they're actually just, like, sifting the the bottom end of the resumes that wouldn't be a fit through this
Nick:Yeah. ATS.
Tyler:ATS. That's the one. Yeah. So, like, having your resume having being ATS compliant helps as well. So there's Yeah.
Tyler:A bunch of, like, free tools online. Just, like, Google ATS resume checker. And, essentially, you just upload your resume, and then it checks if it passes or doesn't. Some of these checkers are paid for. It's like a good strategy.
Tyler:Yeah. Pay me $5 to get your your your resume checked, but that helps as well. So you're not you're sifting you're passing by the robots before you actually reach a human who's actually doing that validation stuff.
Nick:Yeah. I think the thing you have to keep in mind there, correct me if I'm wrong, is that some tools where you can create a a resume, they and when you export to PDF, they flatten the layers, and then it's not readable anymore as text. I think that's the the main thing they check for. And Yeah. A few months ago, I read a discussion where they said that Figma is one of those tools where they flatten your your PDFs.
Nick:But I'm not sure. I didn't test it myself. So your mileage may vary, I think what they say there. I do not know if that's true, but it is something to check for. So, yes, do your ATS checker.
Nick:I think it's a very smart thing to do, and perhaps your CV should just be a Word document. Just a nice, easy to read, and easy to scan text file. You know, it doesn't need to be fancy. Needs to be understandable. Treat it as your own UX product.
Nick:You want it to be understandable and fun to read.
Tyler:Yeah. I I'll tell you that's a big pain point or friction point. Like, because I created a couple of my resumes in Figma, and I got all design y, adding gradients, shadows, all this, and other stuff. Yeah. Interfont.
Tyler:Interfont, of course. It doesn't optimize for file size when you export to PDF. I found myself having to bring it into Illustrator and, like, dissecting and removing a bunch of stuff so that it hit this threshold of like, some people capped it, like, five megs max per per resume. I was at, like, fifteen, twenty megs, which is not ideal when you're trying to move quickly.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. You're going to to really fill well, you know, if it fills up the recruiter's mailbox and your email comes in with that mega resume and then nobody else can send anything over because it's full, that's actually a very strong strategy.
Tyler:There you go.
Nick:Yeah. Well but, yeah, that I mean, I think it almost feels automatic to go to Figma to design your resume. But because of the reasons you just mentioned, I think it's perhaps smart to, you know, dust off an old tool.
Tyler:Yeah. Exactly. It's been a while. I don't use Illustrator on the
Nick:No. Me a lot. It's been it's been it's been years. It's it's never been a tool that I became very proficient in. Yep.
Nick:Never really had to. Yeah. I don't touch any Adobe stuff at all anymore. Currently, I don't not because I not not on purpose, not because I think it's it's bad or anything. I mean, it's great software.
Nick:It's more just for my type of work. I do not need it. Mhmm. You know? That's that's the whole reason.
Nick:Yeah. So I I really think you need to build your toolkits and and having that CV subdomain is one, but another thing that I have is I have a portfolio folder shortcuts on my dock on the Mac. Okay. You know, you can you can drag in a folder, and then when you click it, it like, it opens, like, unstacks, and then you can click something. So I have a few portfolio highlights, you know, just visuals in there.
Nick:And then the visuals themselves within the visual, they have names like this is project name and what I did. And so whenever I see someone like, oh, I'm looking for this type of designer who needs to do such and such work, you know, share your work with us. All I have to do is open that folder, drag two or three things over, click send.
Tyler:That's a good one. That's
Nick:Yeah. It's just a lot of people hiring on Sorry. Go ahead.
Tyler:Yeah. So there's a lot of people hiring on Twitter that way or X. Yeah. Or it's like, have some openings, send your top four shots, and then we'll hire you. Yeah.
Tyler:I'm always not like those.
Nick:I don't like those. But for situations like that or similar to it, I think it's it's very useful to have them because sometimes I get a referral, like, oh, you should work with Nick. This he's a good person for such and such work, and then it's just easy to reply. Send a DM Mhmm. On Twitter or LinkedIn, you know, and because speed usually is important, you know, because there are so many people applying.
Nick:You know, I've I've seen job openings where after, like, five hours, they're like, we're closing the the the job opening because we are confident that we have enough people that have replied that we can find someone. You know? And then you can and it doesn't matter if you're the best fit ever. You know, you could be. But just because they think they have enough, they close it, and then you're just too late even though you're the best.
Nick:So, you know, having something ready to share very quickly from your shortcut, I think is in today's day and age, it's it's very important.
Tyler:Yeah. Until that point, like, if you have that, like, reservoir of kind of piece of work, share it online. Like Yeah. That's a good way to like, being visible, like, on social, like, whether that be LinkedIn, X, etcetera. Like, the consequence of sharing your work is that when it comes time to creating your portfolio, you have it done.
Tyler:So if you're constantly sharing your whether it's shots or or flows, like, how quickly can you just leverage all the existing stuff you posted to rapidly create a portfolio for yourself?
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's it. People sometimes browse your social media profiles, and then if they see a lot of good work, you know, through posts through this calendar year, for example, it just makes you look professional and and and active and committed to your job. So and that's something you can do on the job.
Nick:So I I think perhaps the the the best advice for someone who's lost their job is to see if you can get those things that we mentioned, get them ready. Yep. So you have your your your tools. But if you can, you know, if you have the gut feeling that you might be let go, you know, just make sure you have them you work on those tools on the job when you can. A 100%.
Tyler:Totally agree.
Nick:You have to prepare for the fight that you do not have to do. I'm not sure what the saying is. Prepare for the fight that you do not have to fight. Not sure what it is, but that feels like it applies here as well. Like, maybe you you will never need it, but if you do, you're ready.
Tyler:Yep. Yep. That's I'm gonna quote you now. I don't know if that's a saying, but that's the new Nick quote.
Nick:Okay. Well, that's Nick quote of the week, Tyler quote of the week. We should put it on a on a website somewhere.
Tyler:Good idea for the website.
Nick:Yeah. For sure. Alright. And then, you know, if anyone's stuck, they can just send us a message because we you know, a while back, we did an episode where we took care of someone's question, you know. Also a job seeker.
Nick:So you're invited to send over your questions.
Tyler:That was a great episode. So if you like this content and wanna hear more, please like and subscribe.
Nick:Yeah. And if you want to see more, please go to designtablepodcast.com, Spotify, Apple Music, all the big players, and more.