Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The environment around us is a swirling vortex of chaos, but you can navigate it when you have an anchor that can keep you steady. Each episode, Liz Herl dives into data driven strategies and real world tactics with Dr. Tim Caldwell to help you become more grounded and centered in a world that is constantly shifting and changing. Learn to effectively navigate family strife, career challenges and handle the anxiety of the unknown that the news is constantly bombarding us with. Liz is a Licensed Clinical Marriage and Family Therapist and Dr. Caldwell is a retired primary care physician and personal trainer. You can lean on their decades of experience to find stability and peace without having to control circumstances or people around you. You can be anchored in chaos.
Ep04_ManUp
===
[00:00:00]
Tim Caldwell: Good morning, Liz.
Good morning.
We're back.
Liz Herl: It is morning. It is morning. It's morning. I'm like, what? It is morning. I just feel like I've just been ongoing. Yeah, it never ends.
Tim Caldwell: It never ends. Yeah. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm good. What are we talking about?
Liz Herl: I Don't know, I keep toying with the idea.
I think I've come up with probably three different[00:01:00] conceptualized ideas for the main topic and I came up, maybe, what is it to be a man? Yeah. Let's try that.
Tim Caldwell: Hot topic, masculinity. Oh. Are we gonna, are we gonna call it toxic masculinity or just gonna call it
Liz Herl: No, we're not ever calling it toxic masculinity.
Tim Caldwell: Okay, good. Yeah, because we, you and I talk about this a lot, but we, we are of the opinion that that's taking us the wrong direction. Right. Yeah, we've started down the wrong way. what do you got going?
Liz Herl: A summary of what is gonna ideally be covered today is going over a little bit of a historical view of what masculinity looked like.
Mm-Hmm. to maybe give some insight to individuals around where,
Tim Caldwell: Historically, you mean? Yeah, yeah. Mm-Hmm.
Liz Herl: where they came from. Yeah. How does, how, how did you, how did people come to be, man? Not like, no, no. Going back to caveman days, but
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. But we, we are going back to ancient times, right? Yes, absolutely.
How, how masculinity, masculinity in its trait and its description was. [00:02:00] Those were survival skills, right? And those, those are things, the ability to, to protect yourself and be tough were things that were gonna make you see the next day, right? Eat fight off predators and those that might want to take what you have.
Yeah, that, those are, those are good traits. And even in today's very much technologically advanced at IT world, we still need to be able to be masculine. We need to be able to protect ourselves. We're losing that, aren't we?
Liz Herl: Well, yeah, and I think it's interesting as to why we're losing that. I think there's a bunch of different ideas swirling out there.
Of course, if you turn on social media or different podcasts, you're going to get a lot of different opinions as to how that is breaking down. Yeah. One of the things I shared the same article, so we both read the same article, article on Manning up was the kind of forefront thought of it and that's kind of now a derogatory term.
[00:03:00] Today's world it is like, you know, you just need to man up, which is pretty unfortunate and we'll get to why I think that's unfortunate, but before that, there is a huge concern around that one of the highlighted areas is that men are not doing so great. They're not. They're, they're really suffering.
Tim Caldwell: No, we, we know that to be true.
We, I mean, never in the history of peacetime have we ever seen such a decline, statistically, and I was just going over some, some information. Author Nicholas Eberhardt, he's a Harvard graduate, put out a book in 2016. He covers essentially all the numbers that show that men have just left the job market, and I know this isn't going to be all about the job market, but we now have, ages, I think it's 25 through 54, over 7 million men who just actively aren't looking for work.
They've, [00:04:00] by choice, they've actively not, they're not working, looking for work. That's, that's unimaginable, which means we have four, we have, according to Eberhardt, we have about four million Jobs that just aren't being sought and we have 4 million people who aren't seeking them in the 7 million that choose not to work.
But we've never seen that before. Now in war, things have changed, but these are peacetime statistics and this is post COVID, right? So this is post pandemic. Yeah. We fell into this spin. Sure. Society fell into this spin. And we became more and more removed and then now we have men who don't want to work.
And there's, you and I both know in the food service, in almost any industry across the board, you just cannot find workers. Right.
Liz Herl: People who don't want to work. Well, and there's Help Wanted everywhere. Everywhere. Everywhere there's Help Wanted.
Tim Caldwell: Everywhere. I remember commenting to [00:05:00] my father, I went down and visited him in Arizona, and I remember being in a small town, and there was a Help Wanted, and you just don't see it, a Help Wanted sign in so many windows. I don't, I don't remember growing up with that. I occasionally saw a Help Wanted. Like, geez, that's like stuff you saw out of the 40s and the 50s, where people, you know, wartime Vietnam, Korea.
Even the end of World War II, where people needed work and they couldn't find it. But this is crazy, because there's people out there. Where'd they all go?
Liz Herl: Well, what changed? Where did the men go? Right, where did the men go? That's a really good question, and what changed? What gave that relaxed idea that I don't have to work?
Now, if we're talking about during COVID, of course, the world shut down, and there was a lot of concerns around living, like working, going, interacting and all those things, right? but as we were [00:06:00] coming out of it, I don't know, that's a really good, I don't know if we've come out of it.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, it's two years.
Yeah. It was two years in, and we're still coming out of it. And you're right, I don't think the numbers We're not back to where we were and now we've, now are the enabling people to stay home and stay remote and I just don't think we have people who want to work anymore. We know simply that if people can get paid and not have to work, what's the option?
I'll get paid and not work. I'll take a little less and not work. That's shame. That's a very, that's a shame. How does the world survive if people don't work?
Liz Herl: Right. And I think that what you're talking about there is going, people going remotely. There is such a detachment from our social interaction.
Sure. And men interacting with other men, because that's what we're talking about today. And where is your sense of driven [00:07:00] accomplishment, success? Yeah. Where did that go? Why do you relax in that idea?
Tim Caldwell: It is, we men do put a great deal of importance to their worth, right? And that's men identify with the work that they have.
And if they're not working, I, I don't think it's much of a challenge to say that their worth begins to flag, right? It begins to fail.
Liz Herl: And so we're, so to back up a little bit, that's exactly where I want to go. Go ahead. Like how is this broken down? Right.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. I, so, an author, Goldhill, the title is How the Ancient World Shapes Our Lives.
Mm, yes, I, yeah. So here's a quote, and it, and it let, I'll read it to you, and then let's pick that apart a bit, just a little bit. It's part of a pervasive imagery of masculinity, because the cultural anxiety to not appear that you're being a real man, right? So, [00:08:00] so here's how I break that, break this down.
It's that society has put such a value on the fact that you need to be a provider. You need to be a skilled something, right? Skilled warrior, skilled businessman, an achiever, an earner, a survivor. That's blanket survivor. Society puts a big weight on that, and it's, that's ancient, that's ancient. That's gonna have to do with mating.
All of those have to do with mating and the next, and the ability to survive tough times, war, illness. Those are, those are qualities that will make you more survivable. But what we, what we see now is that doesn't have to happen because everything is so convenient. It literally is a push button away or a phone call away.
Got an app for that. Got an app for that. That's right. And that's what I think, you know, this goes all the way back to, this goes [00:09:00] all the way back to ancient times. Stereotypically the Spartans, those that, they were almost this barbaric warrior, the Vikings, these warrior societies that went out and conquered and then that gets wrapped up into the modern day patriarchy where people think is so toxic, right?
But those qualities are still qualities that are needed to make our, to make our society work. Where did the men go?
Liz Herl: Well, and I think that those characteristics that you were just listing are being manipulated misrepresented would be the better word there. I don't know. I don't
Tim Caldwell: think that's too strong a word, manipulated.
Liz Herl: For the characteristic of being a man, of saying, I'm a leader, I'm a provider, because then it's like you're domineering, you're controlling, you're in, in how that has, yeah, been misrepresented in, [00:10:00] for men. We, you and I have talked several times about having young men of our own, that there, there is almost speaking specifically for my experience with my son, it's like the effort of engaging the opposite sex is almost just futile because of the mocking and the I, I just want to go over and have a conversation and you're, you know, belittled or you're put down or you're, and it's just like, and I mean, there's a juvenile component to that, but what's the driving force behind that?
Don't hold the door open for me. I can do it myself. Oh, I'm so sorry. You know, again, with the manners and morals, values, belief systems. So it's like. I don't, I think there comes a point when men are like, we're just losing. We're just losing.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, and what you just mentioned there brings to memory a Denzel Washington movie where he's an attorney and he goes to speak to these young people and he notices there's these [00:11:00] women standing back there and he says, Why are you women standing when men are sitting?
So these guys start to get up and the women go, No, no, no, no. If we want something, we'll ask for it. And he goes, Well, I'm just being polite. And they go, well, I don't need your help. And they go, well, politeness doesn't have, chivalry and politeness doesn't have an expiration date. Why can't I, this, we don't need your help, we don't want your help.
You know, what do you, who are you to us? Don't tell us what to do. That's a very strange posturing, isn't it?
Liz Herl: Well, it is, but I think that, that is, kind of goes into what society, society wise, we're driving young women to believe. Absolutely. You know, I'm a strong component of independence in both young men and women for sure.
So it's not
it's more so that You know, you don't need a man mentality that's been going around. You don't need a man. I'm like you talked about that cute little reel of the dad trying to show how to change a tire. And he's like, I'm going to show you how to do this so you don't need a man. And [00:12:00] she's like, no, I want a man.
Tim Caldwell: This guy, this guy is showing his two young daughters. I'm going to show you how to do this so that you don't need a man. And the one daughter goes, I want a man. He's all like, what? Yeah, I want a man. Yeah, I want a man.
Liz Herl: Okay. Huh. But there is a difference between need and want. That's right. Absolutely.
That's right. So when kind of circling back there is that if young women are just driven to have such independence almost to offense of a young man being courteous or I don't know. I would just, I almost want to say
Tim Caldwell: Well, is it being recognized as being weak?
Liz Herl: No, that's, yeah. That's the other side of it. Right. That's the other side of it.
Tim Caldwell: That's the other side. Is it, is that a weakness to show? Is that, is that weak? To show that you have some sense of politeness, chivalry?
I, I do remember that Well, I, I just remember a quote that [00:13:00] there, there can't be Equal rights as long as chivalry exists, right? There can't be equal rights if chivalry exists. So, being good and being polite and being aware that other people maybe could use your help, open a door and I know that the elderly appreciate it.
I know that the people who might be physically challenged, they appreciate it. What harm does it do? But to be defensive against it, that's something else, right? That's very strange. It is.
Liz Herl: It, it's almost like, again, we live in such a defensive world that Yeah. Of, you know, yeah. Hidden agendas are, what are you trying to do?
I'm just trying to open your door.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. Right. That's strange. Mm-Hmm. And, we'll, we'll talk about that more when we get into the feminine side of this, the femininity and it's toxic qualities, if that's what we're call it on another, another topic. Sure.
Liz Herl: So kind of going back, what else did you find around the historical piece?
Because I can go into a little bit, you know, I think I gave you some ideas on that.
Tim Caldwell: There's an author, her name is [00:14:00] Jacqueline Murray, and she writes in her book that there's a sense of loss for the masculine control. Like we've lost our way to even control ourselves, and that's how we get spilled into being bad guys.
She talks historically how men used to take cold showers and live in a cave and deprive. They wouldn't bathe. They, they tried to make them, they'd either try to remove themselves or make themselves unattractive to the female species. So that she could, so that they could not have to deal with all this nonsense, right?
Makes sense, really. Hit that track. They literally, they're almost reverting into almost like a caveman state. And, you know, that made them unattractive. And it, this escalated through all of time. We knew that castration was at one point something that society did to, thinking that it would alleviate those sexual urges, which it does, obviously it does [00:15:00] and then we, but in the same breath we celebrated the Virtuous, and the vertility of rich people who could father sons all over the place.
You know, it's almost the, it's the Playboy Bachelor thing. And it's such a strange message. It's such a strange message for men to take on. But that we are, we got trapped in that mold. We know that that's, that's neither acceptable. Or desired, right? Really, men of, real men should not choose either one of those paths.
Shouldn't have to do either one of those paths. Remove yourself or make yourself unattractive to somebody or, or to go out and be the baby daddy all around town. That's not a, that's not a slight on any, on [00:16:00] any, Color, race or religion or even their ideas behind it. It's just, that's wrong. And that actually actually got to be where they, to, excuse me, they term the, the word aete.
Mm-Hmm. Remember to be aete. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . So the, if to the term ae was this, this thought that people were, that men were becoming very soft now because. Well, they have posh lives and they're not working so hard and he's, he's a, his daddy was a banker so he's, he's, he's one of these guys who just, he's becoming a soft man.
It's, it's such a twist. It's all intertwined in there that a woman would choose to be with a man who might make more money or have more status. But, Truly isn't, by blue collar standards, much of a guy, right? He, do you even know how to change a tire? Do you even, [00:17:00] and I don't know that that's a real measure of a man, but can you chop wood?
Can you, do you know how to skin a deer? I don't know what, I don't know what the sample, the example
Liz Herl: is the measure? I mean, the measuring device there, right?
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, but are you capable? Can you provide? Are you secure? I think those are, aren't those qualities a woman would want? They should be qualities a man should desire to provide, right?
Sure. I
Liz Herl: think a lot of this is going to break down to a psychological level of an individual's internal self. A man's internal self of how they see themselves. Now, that is being created from their environment and their belief systems and their morals and their values. And so when we go historical of how men were seen and how they were almost designed to be that rigid, you know, you just worked, you just got out there, you got the job done.
There wasn't really a lot of There was no questioning what that looked like. You just whatever the job was, you [00:18:00] just, you just did it. Yeah. It was just what you did. I mean, that's really
Tim Caldwell: You mean historically? Mm hmm. Yeah, you just, you, well, we, we know there are plenty of religious religious scripture, and that would tell you, you don't work, you don't eat.
Mm hmm. Right. And wherever that notion comes from, Or if it's even handed down. The fact is, if you can't provide, you will perish. Or you become parasitic to your society. And then we get, now this brings us full circle. Toxic masculinity. Are you, are you parasitic? That's, that's, is that being projected on us?
That we're, we're, we're this patriarch parasite where we're praying and just Consuming all the time, or are we providing? And I, I would hope to say that there's hope, there is hope for young men that you don't have to be like that, right?
Liz Herl: I think it's the viewpoint of self, again, that psychological level of what kind of man do I think that [00:19:00] I am?
And again, I'm not going to fast forward to today because I want to keep talking about obviously the past, but there's this I have shared this with you before, this, I guess, metaphorical ladder that men are climbing, continuously climbing from, and each different, you know, step that they're going up on this ladder.
I think is being created by the expectations of their environment, the people around them, maybe their partners, or and so they're continuously going and trying to fit the mold of what it means to be a provider, a leader a caretaker, a protector, I mean, all the things. That's it.
Tim Caldwell: I follow where you're going.
And I think Is this keeping up with the Joneses?
Liz Herl: Well, for an in not really keeping up with the Joneses, for an individual, for a man to, like, where? Where's the measuring tool for that man to say, when do I know I've gotten to success? When do I know that I'm a [00:20:00] successful individual for self? Not for the individuals that I provide for, but historically that is how men are measured.
You are only as good as what you provide. Now, as a therapist, I can tell you that's really unhealthy because you should understand your own importance of who you are as a man. Yeah, I like this. And that the simple fact that where we're going, or where we're at right now, is we've lost maybe track or maybe there's not been a clear understanding of that.
That you, What are you climbing to? I mean, where are you going? And the individual male may not have any idea. So then we go into complacent states. Where we're like, you know what? There's no winning, there's no losing. I'm just going to sit here. I'm going to stay here. I'm going to work remotely from home.
And I'm going to, you know, disengage from life because it is too hard. I'm failing at all my relationships. I'm failing at my family friendships and, or family relationships and [00:21:00] friendships and Co workers. I'm just, it's too much. So it's easier just to stay in this little bitty hole all by myself. And that's my little controlled environment in such an incredibly depressive state of mind.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. Right. I like, I like where you're going with this. I, I, I like the idea the simple fact that in society, now I'm, I'm going to bring us, I think this would be across the board historically. It's going to be our own enlightenment to self and that is, is this good enough? Right. Right? Is this good enough?
Absolutely. And here we go into, here we go into the psychologic benefits of that is, what are you trying to, why, do you really need an 80, 000 car or, or is that? Right. Is that 4, 000 beater that gets great gas mileage, is dependable as a watch, is that okay? Or do I really have to keep up? Do I really have to have Armani suits?
Or can [00:22:00] I buy off the rack? You know, that translates into the business world. But I was born and raised on buffalo and horse ranches and stuff like that. The work ethic there is there are animals and people who rely on your hard work. And without you, those things don't eat.
You don't provide for them. And we live in what the world would call flyover country, where we don't get a lot of attention in the states that we live in, but it's a bunch of hardworking people. And there's most of the people you, we live in and around, they're from hardworking families. And they're not chasing everything that glitters.
Right? In a relationship, I think it's really important that you try to attract a person who understands that, is that I don't have to live in a 5, 000 square foot home. I could live in a, what, 2, 000 square foot home. It, you know, there's the practicality of it. buT you also [00:23:00] want your, want the person who would come along on that walk to want that same thing too.
They don't need a, they don't need a castle. You might promise them castles, which would get you nothing but money. But for them to understand that we really can't, you really can live very simply and not have to be constantly chasing all the glitters, all the glitters and gold and the promise that more is better.
Liz Herl: Well, and I think men are potentially just, I wouldn't, I mean Is it the competitiveness? I think there's competitiveness, but I think that they're just looking for acceptance. Like, can you know that I'm, I'm tired? Can you know that I'm Yeah, I need a break and no I can't because then I'm too soft or I, or whatever, you know, fill in.
They're chasing, that's one of the thoughts I had, chasing this inherited idea of I've got to be a man. I gotta be a man. What is that? And you know, we, I showed you the statistics that men are three times more likely to do self harm and take their lives over women [00:24:00] and
Tim Caldwell: Not, not just, not just harm themselves, but actually go through it.
Liz Herl: Right, right. Completely, yeah. They end their lives.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, yeah. That's a sad statistic.
Liz Herl: It is incredibly, And on the rise. Exponentially. It's out of control, and that's why there's The point of this conversation is to bring at least awareness that you are being heard, you are being seen. The answers are not easy for self.
A lot of it is self work. The other really, really disconcerting part, I read that article on Man Up and the three different sections of it, and it talked about the Fight Club movie. Yeah. Remember that? Yep. What was really disheartening is that the sociologists did some interviews with some young men that are involved in these Fight Clubs, and do you remember that their response was just being hit to feel something.
I was like, that was horrific to read. I was like, I, I can't, you know, I can't. [00:25:00] Yeah. That's just that you're so disconnected from self that you have to have a physical impact to have a representation.
Tim Caldwell: Well, I mean, that's something to explore, but I don't think it's necessarily that you're disconnected from that.
I think that men thrive more I think men thrive more mentally and spiritually when they are put up against hard times. It's a real test of their mettle. But that most, most don't choose not to be challenged that way. That's why, that's why our collaboration between what's psychologically and mentally limiting or enabling us to go into physical fitness you know, head into the storm when we have.
Hardships, face what the real problems are, and make those tough decisions, and have to suffer through it. Frequently in our lives, there are times you'll have hard times. And when you come out on the other side, you realize, I did it, right? [00:26:00] Now, might be minor, might be major, but you get through it.
We'll, we'll have a chance to talk to a good friend of mine who's, he's literally been close to death a couple times. And, I mean, just swirling around the drain. Almost statistically one of those guys you just write off, but he got through it. And how does, how does a person do that?
Liz Herl: Well, and I think that is the key here.
On the internal self that I'm talking about for a man is the loss of perseverance. Of, I'm not just going to lay down and just wait for something else to happen or someone else to pick up and move on or do, which we are seeing that because there is a high level of hopelessness. It feels hopeless. And we're talking about individuals that maybe never had male role models in their life to show them what it means to continue to move forward and to really fight through something.
I was just saying this last night in my practice [00:27:00] that it's hard right now. It's not going to be hard forever and it can be, and it can feel like it's going to be hard forever. It feels like when you are in the thick of something that is. Unimaginably overwhelming and depressive and you're just at the bottom of the barrel here.
It's just the understanding of it is just for right now. And if you can bring that idea in a little bit and say, all right, well, it's really awful right now. It's really awful. I'm not going to try and sugarcoat like, Oh, it's just bad for now. It'll get better later. No, it's awful. Yeah. But how do you get to the better?
Right. And I think that's where Hopelessness and maybe societal views are absolutely playing a role because it's like, well, I can't, I can't make a right move here, or I'm violating someone's space, or I'm, you know, doing something in some capacity that isn't acceptable.
Tim Caldwell: I like what you've had to say there, and the challenges that we'll all face in life, big or small, long or short.
But the impact in our family, [00:28:00] in our lives, and perhaps in our immediate and extended families. are we can only do this day by day. And if we're trapped in the past and just so anxious about the future that can be That can just be devastating and just wipe you out. I would only tell people, male or female, is day by day, make the best decisions you can day by day, and see if you can't gain some ground on this, and then battle through the storm, and when you come out on the other side, there's great reward.
A weight can literally be lifted off of your back. When you feel like, Hey, I did that. I got through that. And, you know, there are plenty of examples we could go into on a more extended speaking engagement. But this is just one of those things that I really like the idea that there, there's always hope.
You should always have hope. And without the lack, or excuse me, without [00:29:00] having a mentor in your life, without having somebody who's older, it doesn't have to be blood. It can be. The man down the block, I, I, we had those. I grew up in, I grew up in a time. Where all of my friends are older than me. And I sought their wisdom.
And they taught great lessons. And I think it's capturing those little elements of the lessons that are learned that carry you through into the next one. I don't have to do this myself. I heard about this before and I see all those signs. I can head this off right now. I can make a better decision, right?
I want people, I want men to know that that's okay. And that we all face these really tough problems sometimes. And ask for help.
Liz Herl: Well, and I think we're beginning to turn the page on those very words of asking for help. Because men historically have been kind of like, shut up and put up kind of thing.
Yeah. And we're realizing how incredibly that we're just doing an incredible [00:30:00] disservice to men. Yeah, yeah. In that alignment. True enough. Of saying, you know, you're not supposed to, You're not supposed to feel tired. You're not supposed to feel like you're, I don't know what, I think it's an interesting I, you know, that apparently men aren't supposed to have emotions in that capacity, but I shared with you before that I saw a reel where a woman is saying, I'm, I just wish I didn't have to be strong all the time.
And a woman was saying it and I thought it's interesting cause it absolutely resonated with me, but I also thought of men thinking the same thing. Yeah. Like. I wish I didn't have to be strung all the time and that they're having that awareness for one another without being from other men, by the way, being belittled of not being, you're not man enough, you know, you shouldn't, you know, yeah, you're, you're, you're suffering, but you'll be fine.
You know, just pull yourself by the bootstraps and keep moving. Well, okay. Can I have like a couple of minutes of compassion around that? Like, can I have a minute to breathe? And be relatable. Yeah. And [00:31:00] saying that you can't tell me, and I'm not a man, but you can't tell me from a man to man perspective that you have not suffered in a capacity, and you're telling me just to buck up, buttercup, which is BS.
I mean, It is, yeah.
Tim Caldwell: Now, yeah, you, you know, I was raised in the John Wayne era, right? My dad, my whole, my whole family, they're robust, tough men, and John Wayne was an idol of mine. Sure, absolutely. You know, you don't know how to, you know, I, I remember a movie called Hondo, where he's he befriends this lady living on the prairie, and she's father, and she's a widow raising a son.
And along, along he comes, and now there's a young son with no role model. Well, he finds out the kid can't swim, so he picks up the kid and throws him in the water. And then the mother comes over, he can't swim, he can't swim. Well, he's gonna learn. He's gonna learn right now. Right? Now, in this day and age, that would be, oh my gosh, [00:32:00] right?
Cruelty and abuse. But the boy did swim. And John Wayne from the bank just goes, that's right, reach out and grab some water and make your way across. Well, those things sometimes have to happen. You really do have to come up against something. But The sink or swim. The sink or swim. Mm hmm. As a veteran, and all, my friends are veterans, and my schoolmates and the people I grew up with, they're veterans, we know that on the average 22 men take their, 22 veterans take their lives every day, every day, and that doesn't have to happen.
That's part of my interest in what we do here, and what we do, what I intend to do and grow and foster from, genuine effort is reaching out to men in specific, but women as well. You are not alone. Mm-Hmm. . You. We, you are not alone. Right. I've been in some very dark times and typically I get to pull myself [00:33:00] out.
But you were, you were saying, is it really, is it really? Are you really gonna come on along and John Wayne, me, and go, Hey man, rub some dirt in it and walk off. No, this is something, something else. I'm really struggling here. Mm-Hmm. . I don't really know how to talk about it, but man, if you just spend some time talking to me for a minute.
Mm-Hmm. we can. We can figure this out. We can realize, Penn, you're living too much here and putting too much emphasis here and let's let's get your head above water.
Liz Herl: One thing that men I know love doing and they really enjoy this a lot and that is talking about their feelings.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, yeah, that, they, they're really good at gushing.
Yes, they are.
Liz Herl: Oh, you want to see a group of men leave a room in a hurry. Yeah,
Tim Caldwell: my
Liz Herl: I have. So, what, the reason why you bring that up real quick is that. What you just said there is the perfect articulation of how men engage with other men. Yeah. Not, I know you're really, really, you can just tell me how you're feeling and what's going on.
And, and there's, I, and it's like, okay, that, [00:34:00] that doesn't land well for some men. It's like, you know, I don't, that's not my language. That's not how I talk. Yeah. And I can't talk that way. So it's better to be like, well, I'm not going to say it right, so why say it at all? Yeah.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, well, you are right. And then sometimes, sometimes I not just, sometimes, most times I would say a man would very much appreciate the, know that he's talking to another man who's at least gone through something.
Mm-Hmm. very similar. Mm-Hmm. . That's why vets that have almost a unique confrontational disadvantage. And that is the only person who's gonna understand what that's like the, the rigors, the stresses. The absolute horrors of war and all those things that go into war Is to share those stories with somebody else, right?
Maybe you don't share. Maybe that person talks all the time. He just listens, but at least he's got somebody, right? but it does have to be done in the right, right kind of language [00:35:00] and I frequently tell men that we are emotionally constipated and most men are. I'm from a, I'm from a, I'm from a, I'm from a family, it's all men and, you know, we're not going to all get together and, you know, we don't do that.
We don't do that. But, we do get together. And when we do, we have a chance to Hash out some things and hopefully help, help from things, but I think there's the tools I want to instill into people more is to recognize This person needs some help. You can see it. He's not asking so you need to make your way into his life.
Liz Herl: Something you were saying there kind of popped into my head and that is what is difficult for individuals I, I'm obviously of a different understanding of this because I can sit with someone in silence for, yeah. long periods of time and be very comfortable in it. And men need that silence sometimes, [00:36:00] but the presence of another person right there. With that presence of that other person, here's the like cherry on top.
There's no expectations of them. They're not expecting of me to, to engage them or converse with them or do anything. They're just literally their energy and their presence is there when I'm ready and I need it and allowing someone to have that awareness to, to just sit next to them and just stare out into, you know, space until they're ready to really engage with you.
You get a hold something for them, right there, during that time. You, you don't know the work you're doing, but you're doing an immense amount of work in that time. Yeah, yeah. And, sometimes people get there.
Tim Caldwell: You know what I like about, that takes me back to the scene in Good Will Hunting. When Robin Williams and Matt Damon.
And, there's an issue that Matt won't share, and Robin Williams knows that he needs to. So They decide they're not going to talk. [00:37:00] Fine. So, session after session after session, they would just sit there and stare at each other. And then, at some point, they saw that, okay, this guy can be as stubborn as I can be.
And then they just start talking. And it can literally be about nothing. Nothing around what bothers you, nothing around what ails you. You're just talking pretty soon. That closeness begins to form a bond, and the bond becomes stronger and stronger, and at least you have somebody, right? And, but somebody to recognize that you do need to talk.
Be that man, right? If you can't, if you are suffering, know that there's, you are never alone. There's somebody like you. Out there, just like that. Be that person for him, and he'll be that person for you. You'll see. You, you receive those rewards whether you want to or not. They come back. [00:38:00] You, you cast it out.
It'll come back. You watch.
Liz Herl: That's, that's the hope, right? Yeah, it is. So, I want to talk about this article that I read. I think and I shared this with you, depicts Dr. Jordan Peterson's words a little differently because he has a very I would say direct view of what men should be doing today, right?
Sure. And is very vocal about that. Sure. And I've, you and I both agree with his line of thought. Sure. Where I think that gets misunderstood or misrepresented yet again I've, Now, I've read books and seen many, many different articles and reels of the fact that Jordan Peterson has the ability to have an immense amount of compassion for the people that he sees.
He's so misunderstood. And I think it's, there is such an incredible, like I said, misrepresented, because he is talking about that men one of [00:39:00] his statements that was kind of being pulled apart you know, have to be driven into being organized competent confident capitalist, you know, that's the idea.
Like, they should be driving, a driving force towards their success. And of course, everyone pulls apart his ideas of knowing the monster within. Right. And, like, well, you know, it's horrific to think that men should carry these monsters. It's ridiculous to think that they don't.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah. Well, I mean, your, we talk at length about this.
Liz Herl: Yeah. And so on both sides of this, as we were talking about the suffering of where men are at today to know, I mean, it said that the demons we battle, right. And of course, men and women alike, and they're in different capacities, but specifically here, when I think that he's talking about knowing the monster within and how do you.
You know, know that you're controlling it and it's not controlling you. Yeah, yeah.
Tim Caldwell: Right. You know, while you're, while [00:40:00] you were talking about that, it jumps into mind that the audience or people watching and listening might think that, we're talking about weak men. We can be talking about incredibly strong men, incredibly, incredibly well accomplished men.
Their stresses are ten times. right? I, I would venture to say, I've sat down with strong, strong, strong men. Part of their silence is because they're suffering. And I don't know how, that's a very individual type thing, but to reach those people and to form some type of communication that allows that person to Let them blow off some steam is a benefit to them, a huge benefit to them.
But what you were saying more to the point is we all are broken for heaven's sakes. And we all need, [00:41:00] absolutely every one of us needs to have a chance to get some stuff off our chest and have, at least think. That somebody else cares, and we're not alone. And I, I, I know I, I got a little, I went down a rabbit hole just a little bit here, but it just dawns on me that you can be incredibly strong and be suffering.
And when we hear people like Jordan Peterson, who can come off as being so abrasive, is speaking the truth.
Liz Herl: It's just perceived as that rigid, you're not compassionate, you're not considerate.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, that is not the truth at all. I think he's, yeah, we don't need to pick apart Jordan Peterson or try to analyze who he is, but you and I both agree.
I think he's one of the, I think he's one of the most misunderstood and I think people just, I think when I hear him speak how he's always on the emotional cusp of Just [00:42:00] just an emotion, just this emotional outpouring is that he has seen the dark side.
Liz Herl: Well, I would also, you know, say just in, in having the ability to listen to him talking about a man in pain.
Yeah. You know, I think that, that is, yeah. Incredible. That. This is a man in pain that holds a lot of information and a lot of exceptional knowledge. All of that comes at a huge price.
Tim Caldwell: And And see, we're talking about one of the most premier intellects in the world now. Right. In the world. Mm hmm. It's clear when you hear him speak that He is tortured in some, some, some way.
Liz Herl: And that, when you were talking about men in general about suffering and that everyone's hurting, there's no demographic, there is no race, there is no age. [00:43:00] When we talk about men, or economic, it does not matter what amount of money you make, or what title you hold or what you do. Everybody has a level of pain that they're suffering.
And that suffering is, is just being muffled or not seen or overlooked.
Tim Caldwell: You've heard me say, just because you do something well, Just because I can pick that up doesn't mean it's easy. , just because I do this job every day doesn't mean I want to. Right. And when it falls to the level of expectation, that's like, that's like your, that's like eating your favorite dessert all the time.
You get tired of that. Mm-Hmm. . I mean, it may be good, it may be happy, but over time people expect you to eat that. Right? Mm-Hmm. , that's. That's not how we're meant. That's not how we're built. Not men or women. And when you, when you put that on the [00:44:00] backs of men who do these, well let's weigh, and I want to carefully weigh this out, is that men do have, they do take more risk.
They do have more physically demanding jobs. They do put themselves in very compromising positions. Life threatening at times. To think that they do that day by day Hour after hour in horrible environments or in horrible social surroundings and they bring home the bacon. That's great, but don't think that that's easy.
That's easy. You might be working with some of the most horrible people in the most horrible conditions, but you're just keep bringing home the bacon. That's not, that's tough.
Liz Herl: Well that goes, that circles back to what I was saying earlier that men have been Potentially, put in this box of your value is as much as you provide.
And emotionless. And, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you just need to keep, again, moving and working and providing [00:45:00] and doing. And that idea is just so, I'm incredibly abusive to an individual to have to live in that state of mind all the time. Yeah. That I'm only as good as much as I'm only as valued as much as I give.
Yeah. Myself, my person, my being is discounted or not even recognized if you will. Yeah. And here comes in when we, we go back into when A little bit historically, and I don't want to bounce around too much, but when men became the idea of what a self made man is, right? The capitalistic components of that.
And oh, you know, where there is a competitiveness to it now. Well now there enters in another idea of now. The brother that was once in arms with me is now the person I have to compete against. And the exhaustion of that idea, of saying, I don't want this. Like, this is the person that I went to war with in some capacity in different [00:46:00] ways.
I'm not actual war, but maybe actual war. And now this is the person I'm competing against. And I, and there enters in where I think Jordan is talking about this. I don't know, you know, I don't want to say uncaging the monster, but I had written down Jordan's great words of being nihilistic and malevolent and where all of those components I think start corroding a man because now I, I feel despicable of the man I have to become.
Yeah. In order to achieve and be successful and be seen and be loved, quotation marks and that in itself, it would just. I think corrupt an individual. So, how do you balance that? How do you maintain that?
Tim Caldwell: Well, what is the worth? What is the worth of having all the appreciation in the world when you've lost yourself, right?
Right. And you don't even know who you are. We don't even know who you are. [00:47:00] Yeah. It, there's plenty of things. It's funny that the word capitalism gets bantered about. But this is, this is something, this is as old as man itself, right? You could be a sheep herder. in 500 BC and that guy's got six sheep more than you.
Oh really? I'll figure that out. I'll get I'll get seven sheep or I'll take some of his sheep or however this conflict happens but this is where when I say keeping up with the Joneses is just it's so, it's so it's just a terrible thing to do to yourself to try to compete with others. Isn't it? You need to find within yourself what's good for you and what's enough but but also The point, too I got lost there just for a second.
What was the topic, what was the notion you were talking about just one second ago? Not just keeping up with the Joneses, but, and Brian can edit this, but you were just talking about well, [00:48:00] regardless, but I'll continue on with the thought, is that We need to learn that we need to take care of ourselves first.
Right, right. And, and I say this to men and to women that especially if you're a caregiver. Now if you're a husband and family man, you're looked, you're looked, you're looked to as a provider. But love your family and know that they're there for you and they should be there for you. Or, excuse me, you should be there for them and they should be there for you.
The idea is know your limits, right? And that you don't have to keep chasing things. It's nice when you make more money, but it's not about the money. Make, pay your bills, live with less debt, those types of things. This isn't a financial thing at all, but there's one thing to make more money.
There's a lot more things to have no debt. Do your very best to stop. Stop chasing everything that's gold.
Liz Herl: Well, I guess, to [00:49:00] circle back again. Yeah, yeah. And that is Are you taking care of yourself when you're talking about your, your being, even if you're not a family man and you're just an individual and being a caretaker, and there is this idea are you taking care of yourself?
Are, do you stop and, well, I can't because then I'm selfish or I'm arrogant or I'm full of myself or whatever, egotistical, then fill in the blank. No, actually it's called self care. And It's everyone knows, you know, you can't pour from an empty cup and all that jazz. But which is true. I didn't mean to downplay that.
If you don't know, how am I taking care of myself? And that's another big thing. How am I taking care of myself? Am I, is it in a healthy way? Am I taking care of myself in a. Do I, do I know I talk a lot about this with individuals, both men and women, if you were to name the top five characteristics or qualities of yourself, what would that be?
And it is like. [00:50:00] Silence. Because myself, like, what, no, oh, I can say what so and so said, or my mom said, or my friend, or my husband, or my spouse, or my wife, or my, you know, co worker, or whomever. I can fill in the blanks with their words. No, I want to know your words, your belief in yourself. Yeah, that's an interesting exercise.
Oh, it's a very challenging exercise. Yeah. I'm like, I can, I only believe what I'm told yet again, but if I were to say, do I believe these are my characteristics, I don't know what gives me evidence of that, right? And so that's the, you know,
Tim Caldwell: So what, so what you said, what you said, I appreciate all that. And it brings me back to the thought I wanted to make, and I got, I got lost.
As, when you are a caregiver, you are no good to anyone when you are broken. Right? You can't, mentally or physically, or spiritually. How can I provide service for you when I can't, I, I'm barely holding together, right? It's just not realistic. This, this is [00:51:00] nurses, this is doctors, this is men and women. This is This applies towards everyone, but when you're in a bad way, you need to get yourself straight.
You need to figure this out. What's it going to take? I always, I'm always an advocate of exercise. Always. Well, I don't have time. I lift a hundred pound bales every day. Yeah, sure. But is it structured? Is it structured in a way where you're developing a discipline? Right? Right. Which is huge. I work with caregivers.
One in particular, this person has to lift patients all day, put them in gurneys, put them in wheelchairs, put them in a transport bus. His physical strength has increased so much now he can do this effortlessly, which now makes his job more fun. And he's safer at it, and he feels safer at it. That's how you can do your job, too.
As we get older and you get a bit more frail, we need to take care of, Can you get up off the floor? Can you tie your shoelaces without your head blowing up? These are, these are things that [00:52:00] are important to men, in staying healthy as men, and, and as providers, especially as providers. Cause, you're no good to somebody broken.
You, you have to stay, you have to stay. On top of all of, all of the needs that you have. The, the, one thing I say about people in all of your, in all of your life, you can have all the money in the world, boats, wine, women, and song, homes. If I take away your health, you'll have none of it. You'll never enjoy a penny of it, you'll never enjoy a second of it.
So you have to take care of your health. Mental, physical, spiritual.
Liz Herl: Yeah. And taking care of your health One of my closing ideas, and I shared it again, is that I came up with, you know, how are you shaking hands with the internal parts of yourself as a man? Do you know all the internal parts of yourself?
What have you hidden away for years? What have you neglected? What have you denied? And now that [00:53:00] you really need to take a minute to take stock in all that you are. And once you figure that out, there's a lot of healing that comes with that. Now. Please be advised, there is a lot of hard work in that.
That's not just like, oh, well, maybe I should just open up my mind to that idea. Well, yeah through really with a guided, you know, clinician with through psychotherapy. Ideally with a professional. Absolutely. There is a lot of great books out there, don't get me wrong, and I think that can be a starting point for some individuals, but that would be my encouragement for men, is to take care of yourself, like you're saying, but I don't know how to take care of myself.
Well, a starting point is trying to discover who you are. Yeah. And, and being compassionate.
Tim Caldwell: At the very least have fellowship with people of your own age or older. I, we dismiss the wisdom of our older, of our generations before us so quickly. We're just a throwaway society, but my, the people of my age and older, they all appreciate the fact that whenever you get a chance to get together with somebody, try to [00:54:00] do that.
Find the time and go out on the porch or whatever it is and tell them, I'm I'm having some problems and I want to talk to you privately. Or be the kind of person who goes, looks like you're struggling. What's going on in your life? Ask. I learned a long time ago, ideally, the word literally is Kazon, right?
Yeah. Kazon means little by little. It's a Japanese for the word little by little. So those things are improvements. We're going to go to a training that teaches us how. So, the premise behind that is to treat people who are wheelchair bound, paraplegics, amputees, both wartime and private, however that comes.
But the idea is every little thing matters and let's pay attention to those things. Let's, let's help rebuild the things that are broken and make stronger the things that are there, right? That, that's super important. I, I think you had a, that's a really good [00:55:00] message you had to, that you finished with.
That was really good. I like that. Oh, thanks. You're welcome. I appreciate it.
Liz Herl: Well, I hope, I hope it helps someone and I hope it resonates for you and that you find Find someone. O obviously there's always look at your local mental health care providers Yeah. And different resources. Psychology today to find a clinician or what have you.
Or even sometimes your, your pastors, that's what I'm say, your local churches. Mm-Hmm. or things of that nature. Yeah. To a, a starting point. You can start anywhere. You can just start with yourself and so, yeah.
Tim Caldwell: You know what I like about that, Liz, is, you're, you're absolutely right. And whether the advice comes from a trained professional or somebody that you trust, find your way into learn how, right?
I don't want people to do the WebMD and I don't want people to be self help. But if you're not getting the answers, if you're not resolving those questions, Jordan Peterson is the one who opened the eyes to me, sometimes medications help. Sometimes help. They [00:56:00] really will help take the edge off. I wouldn't, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now if I didn't believe in it.
And my, I've been very blessed in my life and been surrounded by really strong people and great male role models, but I just want people to know that we are all broken and we all need, we all need the help of others. And find it. Find it. Ask or provide. Or both. Right? Yeah. I just want to make sure people take care of themselves when I ask you to take care of yourself, take care of yourself.
Absolutely.
Liz Herl: And I say that all the time, but this is more You know, definitely be compassionate towards yourself and just take care. I mean, when you say take care of yourself, it's like, just, there's such a level of compassion to that, that I'm sure no one is giving themselves specifically right now, since we're talking about men.
Yeah, I don't think you'd probably let yourself off the hook nearly enough. Yeah, that's true.
Tim Caldwell: That's, that's [00:57:00] good advice. Take care of yourself. Thanks for having me. Alright, we'll see everyone next time. That's right. What's what's our next, what do we have coming up? There are topics coming up.
Liz Herl: Oh, see, you put me on the spot.
Tim Caldwell: We're going to talk about femininity, too.
Liz Herl: Yeah, we are femininity. And the importance of that, as well as what young women are facing today, and the challenges in areas of anxiety and depression, and they're in that category.
Tim Caldwell: You know, while we're talking about therapy, we're actually going to talk about AI, too.
Yes, AI is coming up. Yeah, AI and its affordability or availability to people who are maybe you don't think you need to speak to somebody. Maybe you're a younger tech savvy and you want to find an AI help. We're going to talk about that too. Like, share, comment, do all that you can. Write a review. Yeah, please.
This is all interest driven. I love the opportunity to talk like this. I think it's fun and I know Liz does [00:58:00] too. We learn something all the time. We're talking about all the time. We're learning too. Maybe write down those things that, sometimes, sometimes some real gold nuggets fall out of the chicken and you want to write that down, you know, but Whenever we have a chance to talk, that's why when we have a chance to talk during our forums, our MindMeld forums, that's your chance to engage with us. So just a little plug for the MindMeld, right? When the MindMeld forums begin, it'll give an opportunity for you to interact. Join at $15 a month. It allows you at least two different topics per month and two different time frames for each topic. You could do one, you could do all four.
But it breaks down to just a couple bucks per session, but if that's interest driven and that takes off, that's going to be, that'll be fun. Yeah, I would like,
Liz Herl: yeah. It'll be fun. I think, I look forward to it. I look forward to it.
Tim Caldwell: Yeah, I do. Thanks, Liz. Thanks. You bet. Thanks, guys. Bye, guys.