Gaslighting: What It Is and What It Isn’t

Show Notes

What if the problem isn’t just what’s happening in your relationships, but how those relationships are shaping your sense of reality? In this episode of Lumen, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW break down one of the most overused and misunderstood terms in modern mental health language: gaslighting. Drawing from clinical experience and real-world dynamics, they explore how gaslighting is not a single disagreement or difference in memory, but a sustained pattern of manipulation designed to erode your trust in your own perception, judgment, and reality. Christopher and Kenyon unpack why the term has exploded culturally—highlighting both the relief it has given survivors and the confusion created by its overuse—while offering a clear, grounded definition that separates true gaslighting from everyday conflict, defensiveness, lying, or miscommunication. The conversation delves into the lived experience of gaslighting—from chronic self-doubt and emotional fog to the subtle ways people begin shrinking, second-guessing, and outsourcing their reality to someone else. It also examines where gaslighting shows up most often, including romantic relationships, families, workplaces, and even within oneself through patterns of self-invalidation. Most importantly, this episode offers practical, compassionate guidance for recognizing patterns, re-anchoring your reality, testing relational safety, and making decisions that support your emotional well-being—all while empowering you to reclaim your internal authority. 

To book a free consultation with Christopher, Kenyon, or the other providers at Lumen Therapy Collective, visit lumentherapycollective.com. 

Follow Right Here on Instagram: @lumen_therapy_collective

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Right Here is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you’re experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact local emergency services or a trusted mental health professional.

What is Right Here?

Right Here is a mental health podcast that explores the psychological patterns shaping our relationships, choices, and inner lives. Hosted by therapists Christopher Mooney, LCSW, and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW, each episode offers grounded, compassionate conversations rooted in clinical insight and real human experience. No jargon. No judgment. Just clear, thoughtful dialogue designed to help listeners better understand themselves and the people around them.

SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Lumen, a
podcast that sheds light on

mental health, relationships,
and what it means to be human.

I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.

SPEAKER_00: And I'm Kenyon
Phillips, LMSW.

Each episode we unpack
psychological patterns that

affect our relationships.

No jargon, no judgment.

SPEAKER_01: Just thoughtful
conversations to help you

understand yourself and others a
little more clearly.

Kenyon, today we want to talk
about gaslighting.

Yes.

Another widely overused
psychological term.

And misunderstood term.

And misunderstood.

SPEAKER_00: So let's set the
scene.

Gaslighting is usually applied
to like a slow burn dynamic.

So we're talking about a
situation with usually it's like

a long-term relationship.

It can be with a partner, it can
be with a boss or a supervisor,

it can be with a parent.

It can even be with a friend or
sort of a frenemy.

You start hearing a lot of lines
that challenge your experience,

your reality of something that
happened.

Lines like, oh, that never
happened.

SPEAKER_01: Okay.

SPEAKER_00: Or you're too
sensitive.

Nobody else would take it that
way.

What's your problem?

Yeah.

You're remembering, oh, you're
just remembering it wrong.

And so over time.

We, if we're the person who's
being targeted with those kinds

of comments, uh, we we we move
from like, oh wait, that wasn't

okay, and saying something and
speaking up and defending

ourselves to the person.

We move from that place to a
place of maybe I am crazy.

SPEAKER_01: Oh.

Like really questioning our own
reality.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maybe my memory really is the
problem.

Maybe I shouldn't trust myself
or my reactions.

That's the red flag of
gaslighting that we're talking

about today.

It's not a simple argument, it's
not a little difference in

memory.

It's really a slow, very
deliberate, very malicious

bending of someone's sense of
reality and trust in themselves.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: This this kind of
it's it's a real, it sounds like

a real dark manipulation.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

So it's, you know, I I hesitate
to use the word evil when we're

talking about human behavior.

Sure.

But I mean, this is up there.

This is up there with their evil
evil behavior, right?

Yeah.

This is rough, like molesting
kids.

It's bad.

SPEAKER_01: It's it's it's a bad
one.

So I wanna I wanna talk a little
bit about maybe where the term

gaslighting came from because it
it kind of explains that it the

the I think the true kind of
like meaning.

A lot of people don't know the
origin of the word, yeah.

So it was it was actually from
uh from a 1938 uh British play

called Gaslight.

SPEAKER_02: Right.

SPEAKER_01: And and then more
famously, that play was made

into a movie.

Made into the movie from the
40s.

In the 40s, yeah, 1944.

It was a movie starring Ingrid
Bergman.

Nice.

And in this movie, in in the
story, this husband manipulates

his wife into doubting her
sanity so that he can cover up

all his crimes.

So, like that kind of evil
behavior we were talking about.

And this included literally
dimming the gas-powered lights

in their home and then denying
that the lights had ever changed

when she noticed it.

And over time, she just she
really started to believe that

like that there was something
wrong with her.

And psychologists and public
adopted that term then,

gaslighting, as a term for for
the specific pattern of of

manipulation, of psychological
manipulation that where you make

someone question their
perceptions, memory, or reality.

Right, right, right.

And then the first kind of
appeared in print in the 60s,

and since then, and and really
where it became widely used was

in the 2010s, like the last
couple of years, then not too

long ago.

Yeah, I think we started to hear
hear it a lot during like the

the the teens, and then and then
I think it's just it's just

continued.

And I think you and I probably
hear this all the time in in

sessions and outside of
sessions, even.

SPEAKER_00: Definitely,
definitely, definitely hear it

on the TikTok.

On the TikTok, yeah.

But I mean there's there's an
upside to it that it was I mean

like when these terms are out
there in the public

consciousness, there I mean the
upside is that survivors of

actual gaslighting finally have
a language for you know, they

they have a term they have for
this very, very, very confusing,

you know, way type of
psychological abuse.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

Which we had talked about
before, right?

When we talked last time about
trauma and we've talked about

boundaries before, but when we
talk about trauma, I think that

was like the the word trauma or
post-traumatic stress disorder,

when we start looking at the
diagnoses that go along with it,

right?

SPEAKER_00: That gives people
who have truly experienced uh

overwhelm, like the trauma as
like where your nervous system

can't um process what's
happening to you.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

That gives them a it gives them
a word, a definition, something

to identify and say this is the
thing that's happened when it's

overused, much like the term
gaslighting, because this is

this is a real phenomenon.

This is something people do
this.

That's right.

This is something that happens.

This is something that happens,
you know, in in a lot of

relationships and a lot of
especially we see in a lot of

domestic abuse relationships and
and where where things are

happening, but when it becomes
overused, the the word loses its

value.

And the people that are truly
experiencing it, it almost

contributes even more to them
questioning themselves, like,

oh, am I really, is this really
bad?

Is this thing that I'm I'm kind
of experiencing in my

relationship actually that
toxic?

SPEAKER_00: Right.

It'll yeah, it can prompt people
to sort of dismiss whatever the

issue is.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: And it also like for
us to just sort of blanket any

form of denial, defensiveness,
or memory difference, or lying

as gaslighting is severely
problematic.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

I think in and as you were
saying, the reason gaslighting

that term stuck, I think is it
was just it was a very simple

kind of word for a very
confusing experience.

You know, that and that that
because when we think about

psychological abuse and and
creating that self-doubt for

somebody, that is that is a more
complex version of abuse.

Right.

And I think it it finally gave
somebody a word they could hang

on to.

SPEAKER_02: Right.

SPEAKER_01: Which is great.

People felt overall less alone
and they could name what was

happening.

But the the problem is it's you
know, it it kind of created

defensiveness and and I think
could kind of create this this

dynamic with the the other
person of you don't admit you're

wrong, you know, you're
gaslighting me.

Instead of saying you're wrong,
right, you know, it's like,

well, you're gaslighting me,
you're doing this thing instead

of just accepting
accountability.

SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right,
right, right.

unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: And just to call
somebody out on lying, I feel

like, you know, people don't do
that as much ever since the you

know, gaslighting became such a
popular term.

And there's a danger in that
too, because it's not clear.

Right.

It's not what does the term
actually mean?

SPEAKER_01: So the term
gaslighting, it it it's a

sustained, it's a sustained
pattern of behavior that's meant

to erode like psychologically,
it's a sustained pattern of

behavior meant to erode your
trust in your own perception.

Right.

And so that you start relying on
the other person to tell you

what's real.

SPEAKER_00: Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: So I just want to
say that again.

Gaslighting is a sustained
pattern of behavior meant to

erode your trust in your own
perception, memory, and

judgment, so that you start
relying on the other person to

tell you what's real.

SPEAKER_00: Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: And that is that is
such a deep manipulation of

trying to to create a sense of
dependence.

Well, it's a little like
codependency, right?

SPEAKER_00: Where it is, yeah.

Codependency in in the sense of,
you know, I the whatever kind of

a day you're having, that's the
kind of day I'm gonna have.

I'm going to allow my reality
and my experience to be

manipulated and dictated really
by whatever your reality and

experience are.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

The difference is if if I
exploit that, yeah, that's

gaslighting.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: So if I know, if
I've if I've created that

dynamic and I and I'm aware of
it, that's that is the

difference between just say when
we talk about codependency.

We and that's another good term
to bring up and you know, in the

way it's used and applied in in
in treatment world.

But if it's this is has a more
malicious and and conscious kind

of behavior to it.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

No, for sure.

And so it's it's a it's a
pattern.

It's not an incident.

It doesn't happen once.

It has to happen over time again
and again.

And because it's a pattern,
that's how we move from like we

we start doubting ourselves
more, looking to the other

person more, the person who's
gaslighting us more to dictate

our reality.

Right.

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: Well, because we
have that doubt.

So uh the more we doubt
ourselves, then we we we just

we're gonna sit there kind of
almost frozen, right?

Like, what do I do?

What do I do?

And so you just So we rely on
the other person.

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: Who's doing the
gaslighting?

SPEAKER_01: Which leads to power
and control.

I mean, that that is what
gaslighting is one person

seeking power and control over a
relationship or a system.

Right.

And we could see we could see it
politically, we see this every

day.

We have the president who goes
out there and says, I didn't say

that.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: You know, no, that's
being manipulated.

That's fake news.

That's that's actually that is
gaslighting.

That is manipulation with the
intent to mislead uh other

people.

And make you doubt yourself.

And make you doubt yourself.

Yeah, make you doubt, or make
you doubt the system.

And then you rely on in that
case, the president mortar.

The tr the truth, right?

Or or the version of the truth.

SPEAKER_00: Right, right.

SPEAKER_01: So so is that that's
how it works, like as for an

example, as a system, right?

We it it creates doubt where we
where we have to where we doubt

the system, we we we don't
believe what the system's doing.

Right.

And then we have to rely on this
person who has malicious intent,

very malicious intent.

The the way it works in a
relationship is is like we were

saying, like, oh, I'm going to,
if I know that there are, if I

can create doubt for you in in
anything that we're talking

about in our relationship, or if
there's just a disagreement in

the home, then it it makes you
more reliant on me.

I never told you about that.

I you know, I didn't say that
about like you were or I told

you I did tell you to do this.

I told you you were supposed to
pay that bill.

Why didn't you why didn't you
pay the electric bill?

It could be as simple as as
that.

And that's that's the the the
really toxic part of that is

gaslighting can be used at such
a low, like kind of like covert

level that people don't even
realize it's happening.

It's not just about
disagreements though.

No, right.

SPEAKER_00: Well, it's no, I
mean it's like you can ex you

can expand it to all lying with
the goal of making you stop

trusting yourself.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: So anything under
that sort of umbrella, which can

be pretty broad.

Yeah.

I keep thinking about I was a
huge Rawl Dahl fan as a kid.

And there's this book,
lesser-known book, The Twits.

Yes.

Do you remember that?

I love that book.

I loved it too because my it
mirrored my parents' marriage.

The these people who are married
to each other and hate each

other and torment each other.

And there's one scene in the
book where the wife starts

chopping off a little bit of the
husband's Notice, she starts

adding a little bit to the of to
the of length to the husband's

walking stick.

That's right.

And tells him he has the
shrinks.

He's yes, he's getting shorter.

Right, right, right.

You have the shrinks, you have
the shrinks.

And meanwhile, he's like, What?

What and he's looking to her, he
has to look to her to confirm

that.

Right.

And she's just really, you know.

SPEAKER_01: Just abusive.

SPEAKER_00: Abusive.

SPEAKER_01: It's just torment,
right?

SPEAKER_00: But it always made
me laugh.

Yeah.

Gaslighting isn't funny.

SPEAKER_01: No.

But but Rawald Dahl made it
funny.

SPEAKER_00: Raldah, yeah.

He was very dark.

SPEAKER_01: Extremely dark.

Yeah.

We should do an episode on just
this his the writings of Rald

Dahl.

Yes.

And and and the psychological
like understanding of that.

Let's talk a little bit about
what gaslighting is not.

Because I think that that's
that's really what we have to

look at.

Because we hear it on social
media, we hear it in the public,

everybody just says, oh, they're
that person is gaslighting me,

they're gaslighting me.

So let's talk about what it's
not.

And some, you know, and this
kind of like mirrors a lot of

what we talked about with
trauma.

There are hard relationships in
life, there are painful

relationships, there are
experiences that we have that we

just don't like.

When we have an exchange that we
don't like, just because there's

a disagreement, that does not
mean that we are being gaslit.

SPEAKER_00: Yes.

SPEAKER_01: Yes.

So so just because somebody is
being defensive and so say you

call somebody out, just because
they're being defensive and

refusing to apologize and accept
accountability or responsibility

for what they said or their
actions, that doesn't mean we're

being gaslit.

SPEAKER_00: Interesting.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

So if you do something and and I
don't like it, and I say, you

know, Kenyon, that was really
offensive.

I would like you to apologize to
me for that.

And you're like, yeah, I'm not
apologizing for that.

Like that's how I felt.

That's what I wanted to do.

That's not, you're not
gaslighting me.

SPEAKER_00: Got it.

SPEAKER_01: Just because you're
refusing to apologize.

SPEAKER_00: Because I'm not
manipulating you into doubting

yourself.

SPEAKER_01: No, you're just
you're just you're just not

apologizing.

You just don't want to accept
responsibility.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

I'm being defensive.

SPEAKER_01: Sure.

Yeah.

Right.

Which is fine.

SPEAKER_00: If that's your MO,
you can be defensive.

But right.

Another one is like when that's
not gaslighting is I just made

remember that event differently
than you do.

SPEAKER_01: Yes.

SPEAKER_00: And I'm actually
being honest.

Like, no, I didn't, I really
don't remember saying that.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: That happens a lot
with with in my marriage, where

uh my wife will say, you know,
you, you know, you were yelling,

and do and and I'll be like, I
really don't have that exp that

memory.

I think I that that's not my
memory.

Yeah.

She'll be like, well, that's my
memory.

SPEAKER_01: And which isn't
wrong.

No.

Neither of you might neither of
you are wrong there.

So here's the issue is that
human recall and memory is

actually really not accurate.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: That's why, like,
when we look at like eyewitness

testimony in courts and memory
recall of events and like big

events, it immediately becomes
distorted.

SPEAKER_02: Right.

SPEAKER_01: And it becomes
distorted because the way that

we remember things is by
recreating the event in our

mind.

We don't actually, we don't
actually pull the the image off

the shelf.

SPEAKER_00: The memory.

It's not, it's not just baked
already.

SPEAKER_01: No, it's not a photo
book where you like open it and

go, oh, here it is with all the
senses.

Right.

It's you're, you know, you're
leafing through and saying,

well, actually, you know, on on
April 4th, I did not raise my

voice here.

There was no picture of me
yelling.

Right, right, right.

You recreate the memory of that
time, you recreate it in your

brain every time you you work on
recall.

This is why, this is why trauma
continues for people.

When they when they remember a
traumatic event, they're

recreating the scenario and
they're being re-traumatized

each time.

That's why it's an important
distinction.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're making
everything, your brain is making

everything to order, almost like
a cook.

SPEAKER_01: It is, yes.

You're pulling more senses in,
smells, sights, sounds, what

your body felt at the time.

So each person has a different
experience.

And then what happens because
we're all different that way,

you are going to recall a
similar event differently than

I'm going to recall it.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: And that's what
happens.

And then three weeks from now,
if we both have to go recall

that same event, I mean, like,
yeah, Kenyon, you were yelling

and you were like super intense
and like all amped up.

And that might not have been the
case.

SPEAKER_02: Right.

SPEAKER_01: It was probably
somewhere in between both of our

experiences.

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: And that's yeah,
that's an important point to

make.

Yeah.

The And there are there are
plenty of situations, I think,

conflicts where both parties
feel misunderstood.

Absolutely.

But that doesn't necessarily
mean it's gaslighting.

Because I'm not, I'm not trying,
again, I'm not trying to

manipulate you.

You're not trying to manipulate
me.

You're just saying, hey, this is
this is how I remember it.

You're not hearing me.

You're not understanding me.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

So there's there's ways to
reference that.

So when when we when we think
gaslighting's happening, it's

important to actually relabel
the thing.

So we can the the the
experience.

So we look at it as we can,
you're being defensive, right?

Stop lying to me.

Yeah.

We remember this differently.

You know, I feel dismissed or
not believed.

Right.

So we can talk more about what
the feeling is and what what the

exchange is going on in the
relationship rather than just

saying, you're gaslighting me.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

We can't just dismiss it with
this label that that isn't even

appropriate to the experience.

SPEAKER_00: Exactly.

Exactly.

Different problems, different
conflicts, issues between people

that are going to arise in these
long-term relationships,

especially, need precise
language and names.

And I think that's our point.

It's like we're not trying to be
pedantic.

We're not trying to put too much
of an emphasis on word choice.

But you know, people dismiss
semantics.

But if we call everything
gaslighting, it's harder to know

not only what it actually is,
but like how to handle it.

Yeah.

What to do?

What am I going to do next?

SPEAKER_01: That's right.

It it really clouds any
direction or any ability to move

forward.

Right.

Or as we talk to have that
relationship, right?

When we talked about boundaries,
let's think of it this way.

Gaslighting is kind of that,
it's closing the window.

unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: When I talked about
having the screen to screen.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: The screen to kind
of let that fresh air in, wave

to your neighbor and say, hey,
what's going on?

But you know, they can't put
their hand through your window.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: Because the screen's
there.

SPEAKER_00: And we don't have to
give them cookies.

SPEAKER_01: And we don't have to
give them cookies.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: Gaslighting is
closing the window.

If if we just, if if I say
you're gaslighting me, that's

what's happening.

Yeah.

We're we're we're shutting down
any ability to kind of like

well, there's we're shutting
down any ability for any

corrective action to take place.

It would be much better if I
said, you know, Kenyon, you I'm

actually feeling a little
disrespected by you right now.

And and maybe we could talk
about that.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: But that that takes,
I mean, that takes a lot of work

too.

SPEAKER_00: It does.

But it's amazing how disarming
that language is.

Yeah.

Like to say, hey, Kenyon, I'm
feeling dis I'm I'm feeling

disrespected right now, as
opposed to stop disrespecting

me.

Why are you disrespecting me?

SPEAKER_01: Right.

I think part of the reason we we
reach for this word too, and it

shuts and it shuts down that
conversation because it's

generally people don't like
conflict, and that is that it's

conflict, right?

When we I think conflict kind of
gets blown up into this idea

that it has to be like some big
fight.

It's not conflict, it is just
some some disagreement, some

kind of something where we just
don't align right on our view.

And that happens in any
relationship.

That is a natural human
condition to have conflict of

like how we see things.

What happens then is that we get
we get defensive, right?

We start to get that that kind
of like fight or flight, kind of

like a discomfort, a little
anxiety.

Yeah.

And what and when we're being
gaslit, when this thing is

actually happening to us, we
start to have these feelings of

like the self-doubt, the
sensitivity, maybe I'm crazy.

There's like this fog after
conversations, like we stop

trusting ourselves.

We do.

What did what what do we talk
about?

What you know now that when you
say that, the thing I'm hearing

is fear.

Absolutely.

If I stop trusting myself, I I
can't walk outside and navigate

the world.

I can't even navigate the inside
world or my own world without

having a little bit of anxiety.

Totally.

And we know what happens when we
have anxiety.

We start kind of like shutting
down, we we start reacting to

things.

Yeah, we close off relationship.

It becomes very that becomes
very maladaptive, very

uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00: Well, we yeah, you
effectively become helpless

because we're so we become so
reliant upon the person who's

gaslighting us.

That's right.

Over apologizing, that's another
way the sort of symptom of being

gaslit.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

Here's your here's your role
doll term, the shrinking.

You've got or case of the
shrinks, right?

Yeah.

Shrinking is when we talk about
it in like a like a clinical

sense, it's that idea like
retreating.

Yeah.

Uh becoming small, so not yeah.

Second guessing yourself.

That's right.

SPEAKER_00: Not speaking up.

SPEAKER_01: Maybe he was on to
something there.

I think he I think he was he was
definitely on to something.

He was on to a lot.

Yeah.

And then what happens is we we
start to just trade our reality

for the other person's.

Right.

And we don't get to live our own
authentic life.

Right.

Which we have we've we've talked
a lot about.

And and when we when we think
about, and and I would ask

people just to reflect on this,
if you're not if your insides

don't match your outsides, if
you're not living authentically,

if you can't live your own life,
what does that feel like?

You know, what feelings does
that elicit?

What sensations happen?

And and how do you like go
through your day then?

SPEAKER_00: I think you go
through your day with a fog.

Sure.

It's like you just there's a
serious disorientation where you

know nothing.

Feel you when you don't trust
yourself.

I had an experience with an
abusive partner many years ago

where she over time eroded my
trust in myself by telling me I

was stupid and I couldn't handle
anything.

And I did believe it after a
while.

I got to a point where I was
like, oh my God, I can't even

book a plane ticket without this
person doing it for me or

telling me how to do it.

And so yeah, I mean, it is, I
remember just kind of feeling

like everything is too
overwhelming.

I'm gonna dissociate, I'm gonna
be in a fog all the time.

SPEAKER_01: That fog, and and
that also leads to some

confusion too, right?

If you you routinely like leave
a conversation, you're like,

what just happened here?

And I just I don't even know
like where I am in in this whole

thing.

That anytime we leave a
conversation, we're genuinely

confused like that.

There's there, I remember there
were two two two physical kind

of scenarios that I was always
taught were like really good red

flags for when you're dealing
with somebody who's really toxic

or or manipulative.

One is that if you leave the
conversation or any conversation

with them and you're always
like, wait, what just happened?

Where where am I?

Like you feel like you kind of
got like run around.

Right.

And the other one is in if
people think about this, if

you've run across people like
this in your life, you get that

chill, like the hair on the back
of your neck kind of stands up,

or you're just like that's trust
that there we still have really

good sensory kind of like
warning signs.

Yeah, instincts, we sometimes
call it.

I was yeah, as I was looking for
that word, I was like, what?

Yeah, it's it's it's instincts.

Just think of poop-cutting
changes.

Yeah, but we trust that.

Yeah, those and and that's what
happens.

If we leave, if we leave a
conversation with either of

those feelings, like huge red
flag, gaslighting will do that

until you start to doubt it,
right?

So if you're if we're we're
having that constant thing,

you're like, wait, what's going
on?

Why, yeah, why I'm this isn't
right.

I know this wasn't my I know
this wasn't the reality.

Right.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

And and you know, we talk a lot
about how how these

psychological experiences
actually affect us physically.

Gaslighting does that too.

We we experience knots in our
stomach, it uh that stomach

drops, right?

You feel that, oh, that that
really kind of like pit, maybe a

tight chest, you know, it just
nothing, nothing matches that

spoken kind of like content.

It doesn't match what what's
being said.

SPEAKER_00: I've even said,
yeah, I've even seen cases where

people are, you know, they talk
about having panic attacks, and

it's actually the result of
somebody having gaslit them to

the extent that they don't trust
themselves at all and they feel

utterly inept in the face of any
sort of situation.

SPEAKER_01: That's right.

Including I'm going to be
painted this way.

Yeah.

I'm going to after this
conversation, I'm going it's I'm

going to still be sitting here
holding the bag, basically.

Yeah.

And you're going to think of me
negatively.

And then everybody else is going
to think of me that way.

Look at this is how I look now.

This is how I have to walk
through the world.

Right.

This is how I appear to your
family.

Right.

This is how I appear to my
colleagues at work.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's
really, it's really malicious.

Yeah, the more we talk about it,
it's it's like this toxic, just

really like you said before,
evil.

It does.

It does feel a lot like evil.

And and you know, the context in
which this takes place, we

talked about them a little bit
before, but I mean, again,

relationships is a is you
mentioned domestic abuse, right?

Families where you'll see this
with like a family, uh, the

parents who've abused the child,
and then the child actually

confronts them, and that then
the parents say, What are you

talking about?

You had the most amazing child.

We gave you everything.

You're just really ungrateful.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: You're just really,
really, really selfish.

SPEAKER_01: By the way, it can
be even more kind of like toned

down from that.

Yeah, I don't think it those in
relationships and in family, it

might not, it might not even be
at an abusive level.

It might just be a little, maybe
there's some neglect.

Right.

In relationships, maybe it's
just somebody who just does not

ever want to take
accountability.

SPEAKER_00: Yes.

SPEAKER_01: And so they're just
going to constantly put it on

the other person.

Right.

You know, which which is uh
abusive in a on a spectrum of

like things that we don't we
shouldn't be doing to other

human beings.

Right, right, right.

But yeah.

And so that's so we could see it
like that.

There's that when we talked
about trauma, we had single

single event of like markers,
and then when the complex

trauma.

The complex, which is that
low-level consistent stuff.

Consistent, yeah, low-level.

SPEAKER_00: It doesn't look on
the outside, it may not look

that bad.

Right.

It's not as obvious as like
single incident trauma.

But it's it's really take taking
its toll on our psyche.

There's but you're absolutely
right.

Anytime somebody is not taking
accountability, so that can uh

in an office setting, in a work
setting, yeah, can be, you know,

oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01: What do we always
hear?

Oh, like these, like that
doesn't happen here.

We don't do those things here.

That's not part of our work
culture.

SPEAKER_00: Right, right.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

Which which means you you end up
kind of like feeling like you're

not part of the work.

SPEAKER_00: You're othered.

SPEAKER_01: You're not part of
the work culture.

SPEAKER_00: That doesn't happen
here.

That sort of denial.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: You see it with all
the time when I'm working with

SUD with substance use disorders
and people who are in what we

used to term active addiction,
there's a lot of gaslighting.

Not only on the part of the
person who's struggling with the

with the disorder, not only for
them to gaslight others, but for

them to gaslight themselves.

It's like a self-gaslighting
process.

Self-gaslight, yeah.

It's it's really to protect
whatever the maladaptive

behavior is.

In that case, probably like a
substance use disorder.

So, oh, you know, we do this all
the time when I was in a rehab,

you know, in IOPs.

Like, let's take an inventory,
we would call it, of how you

used to act when you were
addicted to this substance, when

you were on it.

And and how would you
rationalize it and justify it to

yourself, saying things like,
oh, it wasn't that bad.

I never really, I never got in
trouble, I never got arrested.

Right.

SPEAKER_01: I wasn't stealing.

Yeah, I wasn't stealing.

SPEAKER_00: I wasn't abusing
anybody physically.

SPEAKER_01: So it sounds like it
minimizes the impact that it

might have on themselves and on
other people, right?

SPEAKER_00: It does.

And, you know, I I'm oh I'm
exact you're exaggerating.

I'm exaggerating.

You know.

Meanwhile, your body has had
this experience of, you know,

that's at least with with
substance use disorder, often

traumatic.

Of course.

So your body's gonna disagree
with that.

Yeah.

So you're saying one thing to
yourself, and your body's

feeling much feeling a different
sensation altogether.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

And that misalignment it it
creates, that discrepancy

doesn't allow someone to move
forward, really.

And it's it's funny because when
we, you know, and I've I've

worked in a lot of like
substance use programs and

rehabs and detoxes and
everything, and it's that is

it's everybody always looks
like, oh, you're you're

rationalizing, and it becomes
like this this it's kind of like

fight back and forth.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: When you think about
really what's happening there,

it it is a can you explain what
rationalization is though?

So rationalizing is is kind of
what we're talking about, like

with it's like self
self-gaslighting, I think, is

kind of like not admitting.

Yeah, we're not admitting that
what's going on, or we're

minimizing the the damage that
something or the or the the

negativity that something had,
right?

Like I did this because or hey,
I you know, well, I was using

because you know, I had really
work was so hard.

I had to do this.

It it kind of uses it It
deflects accountability, it

deflects accountability or or
give or gives you an excuse as

to why you were doing the thing,
right?

Right.

SPEAKER_00: So we can let
ourselves off the hook.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

So it's deflecting
accountability by by minimizing

the the problem and and and
giving you like I guess like

what you would think would be a
good reason to use.

Right, right.

Right, or a good reason to
behave you that way.

Well, of course I did that.

Look at what I was dealing with.

SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's
rationalizing.

And you'll hear that in all
kinds of contexts.

Sure, that's not just substance
use.

No, just to rationalize any or
justify any type of you know,

maladaptive behavior or harmful
behavior.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

It wasn't that bad.

I don't do that all the time.

SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01: It's how we I don't
well, I don't yell every day.

Right.

I only yell when when the kids
disrespect me.

Yeah, right.

And it's like no, it's true.

SPEAKER_00: Well, it's like the
fake apology, the non-apology.

Yeah, exactly.

I'm sorry that you think I was
unreasonable, but you know, the

reality is I was dealing with so
much stuff, and you were being

really unreasonable.

And what else was I supposed to
do?

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: You created this,
then the gaslighting starts.

Look, you know, you kind of
created this environment.

Yeah, this is that's not how
things happened.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you actually
did this.

I don't behave this way in a
vacuum.

No, you must have been, yeah.

Ooh, it's yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_01: It gets deep.

So one of the things I want
people to know too, and and I

think we've talked about this,
is how do they how do people

deal with gaslighting if we
think that that's what's going

on?

If it's if we've made the
determination that it's not just

something we disagree with, it's
not just somebody not accepting

accountability, right?

Right, but if you're truly being
gaslit, how do we deal with

that?

SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of it
is about defining your reality

outside the dynamic.

So the dynamic, if you're in the
context of whatever that

long-term relationship is, where
you're being gaslit or where you

could suspect that you're being
gaslit, uh if you're within that

context, you can't really trust
anything.

SPEAKER_01: No.

SPEAKER_00: So here's an idea.

Write down what happened.

If if there was a conflict, if
there was something, like write

down the events as you remember
them right away.

Yeah.

And then share the specifics of
what happened with somebody you

do trust, someone who's not
inside of within the bounds of

that gaslighting long-term
relationship.

Here's, hey Chris, here's what
this person said, and here's

what I said, and here's how I
felt about it.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Or read it from your
notes.

SPEAKER_00: That's what I mean.

Like sharing it with you.

Right.

Because you're trusted.

SPEAKER_01: You know, I tell
people to do this in couples

therapy all the time, and
they're like, oh yeah, great.

I'm gonna get the score keep and
I'm gonna get to show you.

Like, no, no, no, no, no.

Let's be clear.

We're not doing this a score
keep, we're not doing this to

prove the other person wrong.

We're actually doing this to
highlight the difference in

experience.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

And validate each other.

SPEAKER_01: Which is it, which,
which is a really important

distinction.

Again, we're not doing it to
scorekeep.

We're not doing it to prove the
other wrong, but we're we're

doing it to test reality.

And and I think when we when
when we're looking at couples

work and relationship work, a
lot of that is hey, listen, you

experience it this way, I
experience it this way.

How are we going to come
together in the middle somewhere

to make the relationship
continue to work?

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: And so, but you're
your suggestion on writing

things down, journaling about it
right away before before our

brain starts clouding it, before
all the other stuff starts

spinning it into something else.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

Grab your phone and just do a
voice memo.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: Easy, absolutely,
and it records and it's there.

And then look for patterns over
time.

Yeah.

Like, okay, is this a one-off?

If it's a one-off, doesn't mean
it's right, doesn't mean it's

okay, but that's different.

Gaslighting is a pattern.

SPEAKER_01: Yes.

So does does does something
happening like two or three

times make it a pattern, or is
that still because I think I

wonder if if people are like,
oh, it's a one-off one time, but

then they did it like, you know,
months later or whatever it

might be.

SPEAKER_00: If you're seeing,
yeah.

I mean, if you're seeing
something happen, say three

times and it's within a set
period of time that's not too,

you know, spaced out, meaning
it's happening, hey, within a

month, this happens three times
or more, then yeah, you're

looking at a pattern.

SPEAKER_01: Okay.

That's important.

I think it's also if it's we I
think we should also look at

whether this is something that
we have consistently seen since

the beginning of the interaction
with this person, or if it's

just maybe something happened
and it's a new pattern.

So if it's a new pattern, we
want to be really curious about

and say, hey, what what's going
on?

Why is this thing suddenly
happening?

Good.

Why is this person acting this
way?

Why are they gaslighting me now
when for 10 years that didn't

happen?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

No, for sure.

SPEAKER_01: That's and because I
think there's some events that

can can maybe contribute to this
too.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

The other thing I think too is,
you know, watch how you're

talking to yourself.

SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that.

I am I'm so big on internal
language.

On uh yeah, the way we talk to
ourselves.

I'm always going on about nar
our narrative, right?

Our story.

We think about unhelpful
thinking styles, right?

SPEAKER_00: So But it's yeah, I
mean, to be watch out if you

find yourself saying, Oh, I must
be crazy, or I'm just too

sensitive, or I'm making a
mountain out of a molehill.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

Any any language that's putting
yourself down, right?

Right, or sounds like that, that
kind of self-doubt or that that

judgment.

You want to shift to something
that's more about the pattern,

right?

Oh, something about this
interaction is making me doubt

myself, and that matters.

SPEAKER_00: And you said it
earlier go ahead.

Go ahead.

No, no.

You said it earlier with the I
statement.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: You know, I feel
like maybe you're disrespecting

me.

You gave an example, but use
those I statements as a sort of

anchor for how you talk to
yourself and how you experience

your reality.

SPEAKER_01: That's right.

Because it's a line, it's it's
allowing you to connect.

That's we always want to be
aligned, right?

That the internal, external kind
of like thing.

We want we want that to be as
aligned as possible.

So I statements do that.

Right.

This is why in in in in clinical
interactions and therapy, and

it's I remember even, you know,
when I was first starting off,

every I was always like, hey,
use I statements, use i

statements.

Don't say you, don't say you,
don't say you.

Use I statements for a reason.

Absolutely.

Because you're it's keeping it
on what your experience is.

And I love that way that you
said that before, like anchoring

yourself in in in what your
experience is.

Yeah.

Right.

And that's what we have to,
that's when we when we talk

about grounding ourselves, being
aware of what we're kind of

experiencing.

We want to be anchored or or
kind of like really kind of

aware of where our feet are.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

And and validated too.

It acknowledges what again,
reality is subjective.

Yeah.

I have my reality that I'm
experiencing right now, you have

yours in a squeaky couch.

Oh my god.

And you know, and and also the
way you experience that squeaky

couch is valid.

Yes.

And the way I'm experiencing
this room and this reality is

valid.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.

The other, the other thing we
do, and this goes back to

boundaries, and this is how we
deal with gaslighting, is that

we test the relationship.

Right.

And what I mean by that is that
we need we can do this gently.

We don't want to be like, you
know what you do, like kind of

like blow it all up.

But we talk about it's and this
is a communication thing.

So a healthy boundary would be
like when you say this, like

when you say X, I end up
doubting my own memory.

Right.

And that doesn't work for me.

Yeah.

So you're creat you're you're
drawing a clear line in the sand

to say the thing you're doing
that that makes me feel this

way, or I end up having this
feeling because you're doing

that thing, you can't make me
feel that way.

But you say something, I end up
feeling this way, right?

And that doesn't work.

So we need to figure out a
different exchange.

Exactly.

And and I want to go back
because I made that correction

there.

When when you do this, I end up
doing this.

Not when you do this, uh it
makes me feel this way.

Because I think all too often we
blame others.

That's a signing blame.

Yeah, we we blame people for our
own feelings, and your your

actions or the way somebody
talks about something or behaves

can it certainly has an impact
on how I feel.

SPEAKER_02: Right.

SPEAKER_01: But we have to be
responsible for our own feelings

and our own reactions to things.

So that's why that's another
place where words matter.

So when you do X, I end up
doubting my own memory about

that, and that doesn't work for
me.

unknown: Right.

SPEAKER_01: And then we and then
we watch what happens over time.

Does the other person end up
showing some curiosity about it

or a willingness to understand,
or do they continue to do the

same thing?

Right, right, right.

And or do they double down and
flip it back?

Do they gaslight us about that
too, which I think could happen?

SPEAKER_00: Could definitely
happen.

Yeah.

It also takes the charge out of
the exchange in a great way.

So like it reminds me of your
definition of boundaries from

last week.

You know, like a boundary can be
like, hey, I want to the goal

here is communication.

Yes.

The goal is for us to keep
talking and to remain in

relationship.

And if you do this, I do this.

Or so let's you know, figure out
the solution.

But again, that's taking it out
of the context of shame and

blame.

Right.

And that's not the goal here.

SPEAKER_01: No, the goal is to
to really address the

phenomenon.

Yeah.

And and what I mean by that
shift it.

Yeah.

And it's to to look at what the
exchange is.

When I say phenomenon, I mean
the experience, the the

exchange.

So then that's that's what the
goal is, and to shift that.

You're right.

The other thing we have to do to
deal with gaslighting or address

gaslighting, if it is truly
happening under the definition,

is assess safety and what the
options are.

SPEAKER_00: For sure.

SPEAKER_01: Because as we said,
this this is a real phenomenon.

This is something that really
happens.

And it is it constitutes
emotional abuse.

It's manipulative.

It is it is with malice often.

And so we need to name that, as
you said, as emotional abuse and

as real harm and and address
that.

Like how are we going to you
know, how are we going to

address this emotional abuse
that's happening?

SPEAKER_00: And that's where,
yeah, as therapists, we can come

in with, you know, options.

Hey, maybe if it's, you know, if
the gaslighting's happening in a

couple, and say, hey, you know
what, I think maybe it's time

for couples counseling, where a
third party can help, you know,

assess, you know, like, oh, hey,
this you're not crazy.

And yes, you are being
manipulative.

Yeah.

You know.

Or say, actually, no, that's not
a manipulative, this isn't

gaslighting what's going on.

You're just arguing.

Sure.

SPEAKER_01: You just or
so-and-so just doesn't want to

apologize.

Or they or you like you said,
you're arguing, you just

disagree about this thing.

The thing that we really need to
look at here is that we don't

need a perfect label in order to
get help.

So if we're experiencing that,
if we're experiencing

gaslighting, we don't need to
wait until we can kind of define

it as that.

But if if any if anybody is
feeling those things, if they're

doubting the reality in the
relationship, if things are

coming up like that, where
you're like, wait, am I crazy?

What like am I questioning my
own experience here?

Get help.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Reach out, ask for
help.

You don't need to wait until you
can like clearly define that

term to actually ask for help.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

And that's where uh having a
trusted friend can also just be

a huge boon, you know, and a and
protective factor.

We talk about protective factors
and risk factors.

Protective factors literally
help protect us when in the face

of some kind of something like
gaslighting and other

experiences that are adverse
experiences, a risk factor makes

them worse.

Yeah.

But just having somebody to to
to bounce your reality off of

doesn't have to be a therapist.

SPEAKER_01: No, it doesn't.

It and and and I think for most
people often it's not.

It's it's a close friend or a
family member or somebody that

they can just be like, Can I run
this by you?

Yeah, does this am I crazy?

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

If I feel if I feel constantly,
yeah, you know, confused or

small around somebody, that's
enough, that's enough for me to

take note.

Right.

If I'm always like, if I always
have that reaction around

somebody, I need to look at that
and and go, okay, what what's

going on here?

Why, why is this happening for
me every time I'm around this

person?

SPEAKER_00: Right.

Look at the pattern.

SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.

And and the pattern isn't always
their behavior that we notice

first.

The pattern can be our own gut,
right?

I told you before, like, notice
when the back when the hair on

the back of your neck stands up.

Notice when you get that sinking
feeling in your gut when you're

around a specific person.

Our instinct, our intuition,
it's it, we need to, we need to

trust it enough to pay attention
to it.

Right.

It's saying something's not
right here.

Anxiety is another one of those
things.

When we feel anxious, it's our
brain's way of saying, hey, pay

attention real quick.

Just assess the situation.

Maybe you don't need to continue
feeling anxious, but just assess

the situation because something
here is telling your body that

it's not right.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

Trusting our instincts.

And gaslighting is one of the
worst things about gaslighting,

I think, again, in terms of like
adverse consequences, is we stop

trusting our instincts.

That's right.

We forget we have them.

SPEAKER_01: We're told that
they're not, they're not

trustworthy.

Right.

That's that's the really toxic
and damaging part is that

gaslighting is making somebody
else feel like their instincts

are not um, they're not
accurate.

There's something wrong with
them.

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: So In terms of being
more precise with our language,

for our listeners to be more
precise with their language,

this is not to invalidate pain
or suffering.

You know, it is really painful
when somebody is just being

defensive sometimes or you know
refuses to acknowledge that

they've lied.

Yes.

But gaslighting maybe we should
reserve for you know that that

specific quality where it's it's
it's somebody lying and getting

it lying in such a way that to
break down your trust in

yourself.

SPEAKER_01: That's right.

It was the same with boundaries,
not not kind of like applying it

to everything.

Right.

It's the same with trauma.

It devalues the word.

And this is this is a real
concern.

This is why we are having these
conversations about each one of

these terms that we hear so so
frequently.

Gaslighting is getting applied
to every disagreement that that

somebody has.

And you're right, we need to
bring it back to that precision

too.

Gaslighting applies to a an
experience of being manipulated

into not trusting yourself.

Right.

That doesn't mean like just
because I say, I don't like what

you said, or I disagree with
that, that I'm gaslighting you.

SPEAKER_00: This is it, and it's
a pattern, so it's a systematic

erosion of, you know, a person's
reality and sense of trust.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

And so when we when we all when
we bring when we bring the

precision back to it, when we
start using it appropriately,

we're actually starting to
protect survivor experience.

We're we're protecting the
people who are really

experiencing that that level of
manipulation and abuse.

And it and it keeps the term
from becoming background.

And it's it's so cool that it
came from like this, this, you

know, from a movie, from a from
a from a play.

In a movie, and became part of
pop culture.

I think it it's just a wonderful
explanation for the phenomenon

that's happening.

SPEAKER_02: Right.

SPEAKER_01: But but we have to
make sure that it is specific to

the thing that's happening,
right?

And not just getting, you know,
if it just becomes overused, it

just becomes dismissed.

Yeah.

And then and then we have to go
back to really trying to explain

this really confusing experience
for people.

Right.

And that that's hard to do.

Yeah.

Right.

It's as as therapists, we do
that all day.

We're like, let's put it's
really what we do is uh in

therapy is let's put a word to
this really confusing and

difficult experience that you're
having.

Yeah.

In so many different ways,
right?

Depression isn't just one thing,
it's this this kind of like, you

know, big picture of multiple
experiences that we as

therapists get to say, yeah,
this sounds like this is

something like depression.

And for one person, it might
feel and look like something

different than the other person.

Right.

So it's the same with Cassidy.

We want to be able to put the
terms so that people have a a

word to use and then that offers
some relief then.

Oh, I have this thing that I'm
looking at.

I know what the word is.

Now I now I can actually plan on
how to press it.

SPEAKER_00: None of us are are
are being overly sensitive if we

just want our reality to be
taken seriously.

If I want you to take me
seriously when I'm telling you

about something that happened,
I'm not being unreasonable.

No.

And I think it's important that
we tell ourselves that we're not

being unreasonable.

What in in in terms of if we're
in if you find yourself in a

situation where you're just
trying to decide if you're being

gaslit or not, the question
isn't does this meet some kind

of official gaslighting
threshold?

Yeah.

The question's more just what is
this pattern doing to me?

And how is my day-to-day reality
being affected?

How is my self-image being
affected?

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: And then kind of
like going from there.

SPEAKER_01: What am I yeah, what
am I going to do with that

information?

Because I think that that's
that's where a breakdown

sometimes happens too.

We might recognize a pattern
that's happening.

We might say, Oh, I'm in this
manipulative kind of like

dynamic and it's hurting me.

But there's still that next step
of like, now what am I going to

do with that information?

And I think that's where therapy
really can help, or talking to

talking to anybody, right?

If you have somebody who's
trusted, you talk about it, you

it's no longer your secret, it's
no longer just something that

you're experiencing on the
inside.

You're you're calling attention
to the thing, you're calling

attention to what what what's
hurting you or causing a

reaction.

And then when you share it with
somebody, you get to say, okay,

well, yeah, I guess, I guess I
kind of have to do something

about it now.

Or not, or you could sit with
it.

But like, you don't want to sit
with that.

That's kind of yeah.

SPEAKER_00: But it is so
important again to to move

beyond the threshold of you know
that gaslighting relationship to

for a reality check.

SPEAKER_01: Yes.

So a simple guideline is like if
the core issue is a

disagreement, then name what the
disagreement is.

If the core issue is
defensiveness, if somebody's

being defensive, then name the
defensiveness.

If it's a difference of memory,
like you mentioned that that

exchange with your wife earlier,
like I remember this differently

than than she did.

Right.

You know, that name that.

And if it's if it is a if it's a
systematic erosion of your

reality over time, that's when
it's gaslighting.

It's not disagreement,
defensiveness, or like

difference of memory recall.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if I can look
at you and say, oh my God,

you've been trying for years to
get me to doubt myself and not

believe anything I experience or
feel or say.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's the
guideline, right?

Those those things.

Name the elephant in the room,
name the thing that's happening.

Don't just throw labels on it
because they seem like they fit.

SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening
to Lumen.

If today's conversation
resonated with you, we encourage

you to follow, review, and share
Lumen with anyone you think

would appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01: We'll be back soon
with another conversation

designed to bring a little more
light to the human condition.

I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.

And I'm Kenyon Phillips, LMSW.

Until next time, take care of
yourselves and each other.

Lumen is for educational and
informational purposes only and

is not a substitute for therapy,
diagnosis, or treatment.

If you're experiencing a mental
health crisis, please contact

local emergency services or a
trusted mental health

professional.