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Presented by the American Bar Association’s Law Student Division, the ABA Law Student Podcast covers issues that affect law students, law schools, and recent grads. From finals and graduation to the bar exam and finding a job, this show is your trusted resource for the next big step.
Todd Berger (00:00):
Navigating the legal job market can feel like a full-time job on its own. While law school teaches you to think like a lawyer, it doesn't always teach you how to negotiate a salary or uncover unposted job opportunities. That is where a legal recruiter comes in. On today's episode, we pull back the curtain on the recruiting process to explore how these professionals can act as your personal career advocate at no cost to you. From prepping your submission materials to handling tricky counter offers, we discuss why understanding the role of a recruiter can now give you a massive advantage as you look forward to building your career. This is the ABA Law Student Podcast. Hi, Eve, Nayeli. How are you doing?
Eve Albert (00:53):
I'm doing great. I mean, April is the worst month to be a law student, but I'm sure Nayeli's feeling that as well. But you know what? I'm getting through it. Finals are right around the corner, so I'm just trudging through. Also, Todd, thanks for connecting with me on LinkedIn finally.
Todd Berger (01:11):
Oh, was it finally? I did see the invite. I try and accept them as soon as I see them.
Eve Albert (01:17):
I figured our friendship has progressed to the point that we could be LinkedIn Mutuals.
Todd Berger (01:21):
That's right. And sometimes I'll get those from students and I used to be like, "I don't know if it should accept it. " Now I accept everything. You send me a LinkedIn invite if you're out there, I will accept it no matter who you are. I expect that at some point in time, I'll get in trouble for that, but not from your LinkedIn invite Eve. I expect that to only benefit me in the future.
Eve Albert (01:42):
Our listeners heard that though. Everybody go send Todd a LinkedIn invite right now.
Todd Berger (01:47):
I will accept maybe faster than I accepted Eve's, but I will definitely accept. Hey, Nayeli, how are you doing? Any news in your life, LinkedIn or otherwise?
Nayeli Diaz (01:57):
No, as Eve said, it's a rough time of year for the law students, but we're getting through it because it's my last time that I have to do it. So that's
Todd Berger (02:04):
Exciting. Yay. At least you're getting closer to the end of the year, but little bit of energy in our Aprils. We have great podcasts today. So Nayeli, what are we going to be talking about?
Nayeli Diaz (02:15):
Yeah, so for today and planning for this episode, as we mentioned, I'm at the end of my time in law school, so I'm thinking about my career doing job searches. And I was really interested to hear about legal recruiting because I feel that's something that a lot of law students don't know that much about, and I want to have a good foundational knowledge of it for now and for the rest of my career. I think starting early about the resources that are out there is a really good thing to keep in mind as a law student. And when I was looking into it, I realized that our podcast at the ABA, the Young Lawyer Rising Podcast, has already spoken to somebody wonderful and done an interview about that. So I figured that we would go ahead and talk about that here today from a law student's perspective.
(02:51):
And so in the podcast, the host Montana Funk is going to talk to Gianne Falvo Mangiro about her career in legal recruiting.
Todd Berger (02:59):
Terrific. This would be something that'll be valuable for people who are just out of law school and people also thinking about their career arc and what that might look like when they're out for a little bit longer. So let's get into it.
Montana Funk (03:13):
This is Young Lawyer Rising, brought to you by the ABA Young Lawyers Division and produced by Maureen Media. Welcome back listeners. This is your host, Montana Funk. Today I'm joined by Gianne Falvo Mangiro. Gian is the producing director for the New York team at LHH, where she leads a talented team of attorney recruiters and connecting attorneys with top law firms and corporate departments nationwide. With a proven track record at LHH, Gian has established herself as a leading recruiter, valued for her expertise by both clients and candidates. Please welcome Gian to the show. Good morning. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (03:53):
Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
Montana Funk (03:56):
Me too. And I always like to kind of jump right into these episodes, but I think for today, I want to try something a little bit different because this is a situation where you are actually a tool that lawyers can use to actually help further their career that isn't necessarily going through a partner or another attorney or anything like that. So I want you to just start off by explaining to the listeners who you are and what it is that you do.
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (04:21):
Yeah, sure. So I am Gianne Falvo Mangiro. I am the producing director of our New York and Connecticut team at LHH. Prior to joining LHH, I was a former practicing attorney. I graduated from New York Law School in 2018, clerked after law school, practiced at a mid-sized firm in New York City for about a year and a half before then taking some time off to have a child and figure out what my next step was. So I really do understand what goes into a search as do all of our recruiters. We're all former practicing attorneys, so we really can understand where our candidates are coming from, what they're looking for, and understand what our clients, the law firms are looking for as well.
Montana Funk (05:10):
Nice. Okay. So how did you actually make the switch then from practicing to wanting to become a recruiter?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (05:15):
Sure. So when I left working at the firm I was at, it was height of COVID. I was home. I just really wasn't happy. I felt like I was putting in a certain amount of billable hours every year for a nominal bonus or raise at the end of the year. And I wanted to do something a little more entrepreneurial. I'm very money motivated, sales oriented. So I actually got my broker license, my real estate broker license, and I was selling real estate for a little while. I enjoy it. I still do it sometimes on the side, but I decided I wanted to get back into the legal world and I didn't really know what that looked like. I just started looking around on LinkedIn and I connected with one of the people at LHH who then hired me and just wanted to learn more about what they did.
(06:01):
And it sounded to me like a perfect fit. It really married my love of the legal world, the law, and then also my entrepreneurial side, which I really loved and what's kept me here.
Montana Funk (06:14):
Awesome. And something you just said that I want to touch on is you had made mention that there are actual firms who hire you. And can you kind of explain when you say that, what that means? Because I think at least from my perspective, and I'm sure a lot of listeners, we don't actually know how the process works to actually get a recruiter and if it's an overbroad thing that you do or how it actually works that you're working for certain firms.
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (06:37):
Yeah. So I would say for our New York City and Connecticut team and also across the country, we have agreements with probably most of the firms you know, big law firms, mid-size firms and boutique firms and small firms in pretty much every market. They have retained us. We have agreements with them. They ask us to find specific attorneys with various types of experience, and then we go out and connect with qualified attorneys that might fit in those searches. We also will offer advice to attorneys as well if they're not going to be right for one of the roles. We just try to be upfront with everyone from the start, but the clients that we work with, it's pretty vast. I'm sure you guys would maybe be surprised to know that it's probably most firms out there.
Montana Funk (07:27):
Yeah, no, that is super surprising because like I said, as someone who is on the outside of the recruiting process, I wasn't actually aware that that's how it works. And it's interesting to know that there's firms that come out and seek you guys and hire you to do the job rather than you just being there with the attorney that's looking for the job. So I think that's really interesting. And are you able to explain, once you're hired by a firm, how do you then take that and then go recruit for attorneys and how do you decide what firm they're going to go to, et cetera?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (07:59):
So we aren't necessarily hired by them. We have an agreement with them. If we successfully place a candidate there, they pay us a fee. So I think a lot of people don't realize that working with a recruiter to a candidate is free. You're not getting charged anything. We are just advocating for you, bringing your resume in front of partners and recruiting departments that maybe you wouldn't have known about otherwise, or advocating and making your experience jump off the page in such a competitive market. Sometimes it's hard to stand out, but because we've worked with some of these firms for so long, we know their hiring practices, we know the players, we're able to help you tailor your resume, draw out specific experience that you might have on there, and also advocate for you throughout the process and prep your submission materials and all of those things.
Montana Funk (08:49):
Do you think there's a certain way that a young attorney or even someone who's in law school who's going to go into practice, how would you even know if you need a recruiter? What's something that would tip someone off to, "I should look for a recruiter." How do you even go about that process?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (09:04):
Yeah, so I would say that we're always happy to have conversations with young attorneys that are trying to figure out what's next. I would say when thinking about using recruiter, it's generally going to be beneficial for someone who has a few years of experience, at least under their belt. A good recruiter will let you know that they don't want to tie a fee to you and your application if maybe you are very junior or you're just starting out or you're looking to pivot practice areas. While everyone's qualified and bring something great to the table, there's a select few times when using a recruiter is not going to be of your benefit.
Montana Funk (09:44):
Okay. And when are those times? I mean, when do you think a recruiter ... I know you said that you probably want a couple of years of practice behind your belt. So is there certain criteria that you look for when you're determining maybe a recruiter isn't something that that person should use?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (09:58):
So I would say just if you're very junior just coming out of law school, probably not beneficial to use a recruiter. We're always happy to have a conversation. Other than that, I would say it's probably going to be beneficial to use a recruiter in your search. A good recruiter will have a conversation to understand what you're looking for in a move, what's important to you, learn more about you generally, and then we'll connect you with posted and unposted opportunities you might not have ever known about on your own. We prep all of your submission materials for a complete application package. We can help you prep those materials, your resume writing sample. We'll do then all the communicating with the firm for scheduling interviews. We'll then interview prep you, make sure you feel confident going into the interview. We might know some of the people you're going to be meeting with and what they generally look for or like to hire and help you get a little edge there.
(10:51):
And then we will negotiate offers and compensation packages as well for our candidates. It's really start to finish full service. It's a full-time job looking for a new role. It can be stressful and we really like to take the pressure off of the candidates we work with and that's our job.
Montana Funk (11:09):
And it's interesting you say all the things that you do because quite frankly, I would not know that there's so many things that recruiters can help you with such as, like you said, prepping them for an interview or making their materials whole and helping them submit the applications. And to me, what I'm curious about specifically is if you get somebody who's coming to you and saying, "Hey, I want to use your services. I want a recruiter." How are you then looking at that individual and determining what opportunities you think would fit with that person?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (11:37):
Yeah. So obviously it's going to take some time and practice, but our team is very tenured and we have a lot of experience under our belt. So once we connect with someone, we probably already have firms in mind that they might be a good fit for. So generally speaking, I'm learning what the person's looking for, whether it's a higher compensation, whether it's a lower billable hour requirement, maybe they want partnership prospects, more hands-on experience, all of those things. So after I've had an initial call with someone, I'll then go back to my internal systems, go back to my team, see what we're working on that they might be a good fit for. And then also opportunistically, I will reach out to different firms and our contacts to see if they would be interested in reviewing someone's materials with this skillset. So it really is of a benefit because we are going to take you to market in a way that you wouldn't be able to take yourself.
Montana Funk (12:31):
So one thing you had mentioned was having an initial call with an individual who's using your services. What does that initial call actually look like?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (12:40):
Yeah. So if I've connected with someone, whether they've reached out or I've reached out to them on LinkedIn, email, phone call, I'll get a resume and we'll just go over their background. So where they went to law school, what they're doing currently, the firms maybe they previously were at. And then generally I will ask them what they're looking for, how much are they looking for in a salary jump? Is there a billable hour requirement that they're looking for? Is there a specific type of firm they're targeting? Maybe they're at a mid-sized firm and they'd love to go to a larger firm with more resources, or maybe they want to go to a boutique firm and really be able to specialize and get more hands-on experience. So I'm really just trying to understand their personality, where they've been, what they're currently doing, and where they'd like to go.
Montana Funk (13:28):
Is there ever a situation where you match somebody with a firm or a couple of firms that you think are appropriate and then realize maybe down the road, okay, that's not a great personality match. And if so, is there things that you can do to remedy it for that client to say, "Okay, this one wasn't something that you're interested in, but we can look into alternate options?"
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (13:47):
Totally. Yeah. I mean, that happens all the time. We're, of course, submitting people to several different opportunities. We're not sending you to one firm and hoping for the best. We're trying to cast a wide net if they're interested. So we're always doing something with someone's explicit consent. We're never sending a resume into a bunch of different firms without the candidate wanting that. But there's plenty of times it's not going to be a good match, whether it's right off the bat, the firm isn't interested in seeing the materials further, they don't want to bring them in for an interview, or maybe they've gotten to the interview stage and maybe the firm or the candidate thinks it's not going to be a good match. We just try to take that feedback and then apply it moving forward to be able to pivot and focus on opportunities that might be a better fit instead.
Montana Funk (14:33):
And I know you'd also had mentioned asking on that initial call things such as type of law they might want to practice or billable hours, et cetera. What do you do if someone comes to you and says, "Hey, I've been practicing for two years. I don't really know what I want to do or where I want to go or what an appropriate billable requirement is, but can you just help me with a starting point?"
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (14:54):
Yeah, I'm always happy to have an exploratory call with someone if they're really not sure what they'd like to do. In that type of situation where someone maybe is looking to pivot to a different area of the law, using a recruiter probably isn't going to be their best bet just because they would kind of be starting from ground floor there and they might be better off submitting resumes directly to the firm without a recruiter's fee attached. And if that's the case, everyone on our team would be very upfront about that, happy to give some advice, but we would let them know that they're probably going to be best served running their search on their own.
Montana Funk (15:28):
Okay, perfect. That's really good to know. And do you have any advice to listeners right now who want to maybe use a recruit but don't know how to go about finding one?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (15:37):
Sure. I would just say do your research, do your diligence, look on LinkedIn, see how long the person's been doing this. Are they part of a well-established group? Are they working for a company that's been around for a long time? Do they personally have any reviews? Do they have any information about the candidates they've personally placed? And you could always kind of interview them as well. It goes both ways. We want to make sure it's a good fit for us and our clients, and then we also want to make sure the candidates are excited about working with us as well.
Montana Funk (16:10):
Awesome. Awesome. And I know that you were talking about too, finding this firm where someone okay is a good fit, maybe you end up placing them. So does your job also extend past just finding positions for people? Can you help with, let's say someone's like, okay, I want this place, but I don't know how to negotiate salary or negotiate terms, things like that. Do you guys provide advice in that area?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (16:33):
So we would be able to represent someone to any firm that we've presented their materials to. If let's say they had submitted their materials on their own to a firm, we're always happy to give advice, but we wouldn't be able to represent them in any negotiations for that.
Montana Funk (16:48):
Right. And then when you guys ... And sorry, I should say when you guys have given the materials to a firm on behalf of someone, you are able to then help them through the negotiation portion?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (16:56):
Oh yeah, 100%, definitely. That's a large portion of our job. Whether the person is looking to negotiate start date or would like to counter offer, we would handle all of that and we're happy to take the lead there.
Montana Funk (17:11):
Awesome. Okay. Well, I want to take another break, but I do want to get into that process and what that looks like when we get back. So if you have somebody that you're helping place, you're helping them get their materials, go through the interview process, and they determine, okay, this firm is somewhere that I think could be a good match. We're getting deeper into the interviews, but then they're saying, "Okay, I'm a little bit nervous. I don't know how to determine what a good salary is or what would even be appropriate to ask for. " How would you help the individual through that?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (17:44):
Yeah, so I would say before even submitting any applications, and this could go for working with a recruiter or more generally if someone's just doing it on their own. In many states, job postings now require salary range to be provided for a role if it's been posted. This is kind of the best place to start to see if the salary range the firm has provided is within the range you had in mind for a new role. If you're looking for a job outside of a state that requires a salary range and none is provided, I would say it's always good to do some research ahead of time to try to understand the firm's typical compensation range if you can, or if they follow more of a lockstep model where there wouldn't be much room for negotiation. I would then say, if you're going to a first round interview, don't discuss numbers.
(18:29):
If you're asked, which it happens a lot of times, you can just let the firm know at that point you're looking to be compensated, commensurate with your class year and experience level in line with the responsibilities that the position is asking. You want at this point the firm to fall in love with you, your personality and the work you've done, and then get into numbers later. If you've made it to the offer stage or we take you to the offer stage and offer has been presented, and let's say the salary number is below maybe what you had in mind or found in your research, you can certainly counter. While it is rare, a counter offer can make a firm reconsider and even withdraw an initial offer. So we always like to tell candidates that counter offers can come with risks, but if you'd still like to proceed with a counter offer, the best practice really would just be to reiterate your desired salary and explain why it's warranted with something quantifiable, such as the goals that are achieved, money made there, and understanding that the firm also might not accept that counter offer.
Montana Funk (19:34):
You had mentioned lockstep, and for some listeners who may not know what that is, can you briefly just kind of explain what that lockstep program would look like in a salary situation?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (19:43):
Yeah. So a lot of firms out there follow a lockstep model, meaning that if you are a second year associate at the firm, you are paid a specific base salary and bonus, and that each year that you progress with the firm, your salary would increase lockstep. So maybe it raises by $10,000 every single year and it follows that progression. So because it really is a fixed salary rate and scale, there really is not much deviation that can be done there.
Montana Funk (20:14):
Okay. That makes total sense. And I know you had mentioned a couple of things in terms of if you do a counter offer that may be seen by some firms as kind of a situation where maybe they don't want to offer you the job anymore, et cetera. Are there other basic rules that you would tell our listeners about how not to negotiate or when it may be inappropriate to make a counteroffer?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (20:35):
Yeah, I would say that if, let's say you submitted your resume on your own and the application said that the range was going to be 130 to 150,000 and you submitted your materials, okay with that range. Let's say the offer comes in at 140, squarely within the middle of the range. If you're looking to get something like 175,000, it probably wasn't best to even be submitting an application to the firm at that point just because they had squarely given a range there, you got an offer within the range, it's probably not going to be appropriate to counter with something outside of the range the firm had even provided. But using that same example, if the range provided was 130 to 150 and maybe you receive an offer for 120, that would be a great opportunity to counter to the firm and just say, "Hey, I was really interested and I remain really interested in this opportunity, but I was really hoping to get a salary within the range that you guys provided for the listing." Is that possible?
Montana Funk (21:37):
Is there ever a situation where someone may go back to back a couple of times actually when negotiating a salary?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (21:44):
I mean, it certainly can happen. I would just say that when using us specifically, we try to really set the stage for the candidate and let them know ahead of time what compensation will likely look at. And also if let's say the candidate had a salary requirement in mind, we will always let the firm know ahead of time. That way when we get to the offer stage, there shouldn't be many surprises and we really shouldn't be far off if off at all.
Montana Funk (22:11):
That makes a lot of sense. And would you say that there's any other considerations outside of salary that someone should be looking into or something specifically that you actually discuss with the applicant when you're going through this process? Like I said, besides just the salary portion of it, what other things are you looking for when you're going through that application?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (22:29):
Yeah, I would say so using us or on your own, you should definitely take a look at the entire compensation package and compare it to what you have now and what you were hoping to get. So outside of just your base salary, you should take a look at the billable hours that the firm requires. You should also take a look at 401k, whether the firm provides any match there, the health insurance, paid time off, in office schedule, if there's any paid family leave, if that's important to you. Just taking the whole compensation package into account and not just looking at the number on the salary, because a lot of times that is not telling the whole picture.
Montana Funk (23:11):
Right. And I think I want to ask this because I think a lot of listeners may have this question, but in terms of negotiation, is there any ever room for negotiating those terms as well as salary, like saying, "Hey, I want more PTO or maybe family leave is important to me. " Is there the ability to negotiate in those areas?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (23:30):
I would say billable hours is going to be something fixed. The firm's health insurance and 401k, generally something that we're not able to negotiate. Even paid time off, that's kind of hard as well because it's generally a firm-wide policy. I would say an in- office schedule. So maybe the firm has a requirement of three days in the office and you were really hoping to be home an extra day. That's something you could always discuss with the firm and try to see if they are flexible at all for you to maybe work from home an additional day. That's something that certainly could be negotiated.
Montana Funk (24:06):
If there is somebody who's, let's say, at a job, they're already there, but they are like, "Okay, I love it here, but I feel like I'm not getting compensated. I don't think that this is appropriate. I want more, but I don't want to leave and I'm scared that that might make them either let me go or create a tension in the office." What advice do you have to people who, like I said, want their to stay at their job, but just don't know how to negotiate for more money because they think that they're worth more?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (24:33):
Sure. I would say come prepare to your year-end review. So have you met and exceeded your billable hour requirements? Come prepared to talk about that. Come prepared also to discuss all the amazing things you're doing at your firm. Have you volunteered on any committees? Have you worked with several different partners and helped across the office? Have you mentored some junior associates and helped there? Are you overall a good firm citizen? Why should the firm want to keep you and keep you here and compensate you more? What justifies that? Come prepared to discuss all those things to make the case for yourself.
Montana Funk (25:11):
Okay, that makes sense. Do you have any advice for individuals on, okay, if they're going to have this year-end meeting or maybe it's quarterly review and they want to ask for more, what is an inappropriate way to approach that conversation?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (25:25):
I would just say it's generally going to be inappropriate just to come unprepared to that discussion without justifying why you're asking for more and what you've brought to the firm and why you should be getting compensated more.
Montana Funk (25:41):
And on the flip side of things, I do think it's also important to talk about your relationship with the recruiter itself. So on your side, your perspective as well as from what you've seen from maybe applicant's perspectives, how does an individual know or maybe a recruiter know if the person they're working with isn't a good fit?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (26:00):
Yeah. So there's been plenty of times where it's maybe just not going to be a good personality match or maybe the person is really unresponsive, maybe they've told me one thing, they've let me know that this is what they're looking for in a search salary-wise, firm-wise, and if I've gotten them exactly what they're looking for and they're still maybe not sure what they want, maybe I'll ask them if it's time to take a pause in the search and just figure out, prioritize what they actually want. I think just being upfront and honest with the recruiter you're working with, letting them know what you're looking for, what you're not looking for, and just being communicative is the most important thing you could do.
Montana Funk (26:42):
So then it sounds like at least that if someone is with a recruiter that they're not finding is a good match, they shouldn't be upset or they shouldn't be embarrassed to say, "This person isn't necessarily a good match for me. Can I have somebody else?"
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (26:55):
So generally speaking, everyone at our company is great. So if you're working with any of us, I would say you're in good hands. If you think you're working with someone that's just really not taking your search seriously, or maybe you found out they've submitted your materials widely without your consent, that's certainly a huge red flag that should never be happening. So I think at that point you could let the person know you would like them to stop your search and you'd like to look elsewhere.
Montana Funk (27:22):
Okay, perfect. And something else that I'm curious about is if you have an individual who maybe has been in practice and then has decided that they want to switch gears outside of practice as you had done, is that something that recruiters can also help with or is that ... I guess what advice would you provide to somebody who's saying, "Okay, I don't want to be in practice anymore or active practice, but I still want help searching for something appropriate for me.
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (27:49):
" Yeah, so I would say it's really going to depend whether or not a recruiter can help you and assist is going to depend on the experience you had prior to practicing and how closely it aligns with wanting to go back to that. Our team focuses on attorney search, but our company places all different types of people in all different practices, whether it's marketing, engineering, accounting, and finance. So if someone wanted to pivot back to an experience they had previously, I'm sure one of our recruiters or recruiter generally could help, but I would say it's really going to be a case by case basis, whether a recruiter can assist or not.
Montana Funk (28:30):
I know you also had mentioned that it's not the best idea to use a recruiter if you are just coming out of law school and haven't had a couple of years of practice behind you. Would that opinion change for individuals who maybe have done a clerkship for a couple of years? Do you think that it's inappropriate for them to use a recruiter?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (28:47):
Also, it's really going to depend. A lot of times a firm will not want to pay our fee for someone coming out of a clerkship. It's going to depend on the candidate, their specific experience, and also going to depend on the firms they're looking to target.
Montana Funk (29:03):
That's a ton of good information. I think that all makes sense. And like I said, it's a lot of things that I didn't know about with the recruiting process and such as that you guys are a free service and how you guys can help and just how much that you can help with. So to end the episode, I do think it's important if you don't mind just kind of giving an overview again to our listeners about really what you guys can do, the list of services that you can help with and how they can find you guys if they're thinking, "This is something that I want to look into."
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (29:30):
Yeah. So working with a recruiter could be very beneficial to you if you've had a couple of years experience and you're looking to maybe pivot to a different firm for whatever reason it may be, a good recruiter will have an initial conversation again with you, understand what you're looking for generally will help prep your submission materials in your application package, help tailor it to the specific opportunities you are looking to target. We will have access to roles that are on Post it that you might not have known about on your own. We'll then help submit those materials over to the firm for you. Be in communication with the firm directly, schedule you for interviews, do any interview prep for you for each round of interviews. This way you feel completely confident walking into your interviews and well prepared. And then once it gets to an offer stage, we're happy to negotiate your compensation package for you and make sure it's a good fit for both you and the firm.
(30:31):
And even after we've placed you, we do stay in contact with you and make sure everything's going well.
Montana Funk (30:36):
Well, I appreciate you telling us just everything that you guys do. Like I said, there was a lot of services that I didn't even know, and I'm sure a lot of our listeners are also happily surprised to see everything that they can look for and that they can get help with. I know that if I were to ever need a new job, that this is something I would definitely want to look into. So if you don't mind telling your listeners where they could actually find you if they have further questions or just want to reach out, get a recruiter, et cetera, where should they go?
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (31:01):
Sure. So they can connect with me on LinkedIn and message me there directly. My name on LinkedIn is Gian Falvomanjio or they could send me an email confidentially. My email is G-I-A-N-N-E period F as in Frank, A- L-V-O @lhh.com.
Montana Funk (31:23):
Well, Gian, thank you so much for joining me today. Like I said, this is a really cool conversation, opened up my eyes and I'm sure a lot of our listeners to a resource out there that a lot of people don't know about. So I appreciate it. And thank you again.
Gianne Falvo Mangiro (31:36):
Thank you so much, Montana. It was great to speak with you and great to be here.
Todd Berger (31:40):
We'll be right back. So Eve and Nayeli, really interesting conversation that we heard about legal recruiting. As I ask you guys, oftentimes after we have one of these conversations and interviews, what were the really interesting parts that you took from it? Things that you might not have known before, now you do now find it really interesting, things that might've challenged any preconceptions you had, or did you not know anything at all about the world of legal recruiting?
Eve Albert (32:13):
I think Nyellie's a little more involved now because I'm still at the stage of my law school career where I'm like, "I'm not going to graduate ever." So I don't really stress as much about finding jobs as an attorney. I'm more stressed about the bar right now, but I think that I didn't know that much about legal recruiting because of that. And it was just nice to ... I mean, this episode provided a really good crash course on it. It gave a lot of base level information that I think every law student should have in their back pocket, just so you know that trying to find a job after you graduate isn't such a daunting task. It's not as daunting when you have somebody available to help you out.
Todd Berger (32:55):
What about you, Nile? What'd you think?
Nayeli Diaz (32:57):
Yeah, like you've said, I'm at the end, so I'm in the thick of looking for jobs and sorting through all that stuff. And so it can feel, as I'm sure many 3Ls listening, can understand. It is so overwhelming. There is your school's job portal, but then there's LinkedIn and is it real or is it fake? And sorting through all that kind of stuff is really overwhelming. And I didn't know really anything about this. As Eve said, it was a nice crash course to know that when that happens, there's people that can help you sort through all the noise, all the stuff that's out there and find stuff that's more specific to you and look at you more as a person than sometimes when you're applying for jobs, you don't feel like a person. I feel like the piece of paper in front of you with my resume and that's not all that I am.
(33:39):
And so it's really good to hear about opportunities for me in the future possibly or earlier to have someone that could help me with this and so it doesn't feel as overwhelming.
Todd Berger (33:51):
How about just out of curiosity? I mean, I do have students I work with and they get jobs, but in kind of very specific things that I might know about. So to me, is this sort of new that the possibility of law students and legal recruiters as far as going to a legal recruiter to help them navigate what the market looks like? Do you hear that a lot from students in your schools? I mean, would you recommend it? Is this a useful service for people who are 3Ls looking for jobs?
Nayeli Diaz (34:21):
As mentioned, I think this is something good for the 3Ls to keep in mind in maybe a few years if you start practice. Everybody is so stressed about starting a job, but at the end of the day, a lot of times we don't know what practice is like. And if you find yourself in a position in a few years where you're in a practice that you're just really not enjoying for whatever reason, it's good to have this option. Again, I didn't know about it, now I do. If I or my friends need it in the future, it's nice to have it. But I think that a lot of what I'm seeing more so from my peers is interacting with it from a different perspective where it's recruiters who work with the law firms that are reaching out to us. And that's kind of a completely different thing.
(34:58):
And there's a different set of, I think, rules and things that people should keep in mind in that sense.
Todd Berger (35:03):
So that's interesting. So let's assume that some law firm is like, "Here's this podcast," and they decide, well, they want to hire me, right?
Eve Albert (35:13):
Why you? Why can't they hire me?
Todd Berger (35:16):
Well, they're just looking ... We connected on LinkedIn, so they liked my LinkedIn game and they want to hire me. So do you have any advice? What am I supposed to do when I talk to these recruiters?
Nayeli Diaz (35:31):
Yeah, I think if you're a law student, and a lot of times there are people in our LinkedIns who are asking us certain things. And I think first it's important to remember to do your research. We're law students, we know how to do research. Don't get overwhelmed. Take a deep breath. Look up whether the person who's messaging you works at a law firm specifically, whether they work at a legal recruiting firm. If they're trying to contact you to have a conversation, it's always good to have a conversation. Get on the phone with them, ask them specifically who they work for, how long they've been with whatever firm that they're working for, what they're looking for out of you. And the person who, if they're working for a law firm, they should be able to tell you things about the firm. They should be able to tell you about the culture, the type of work that they do, the makeup of the firm.
(36:12):
If they don't know those questions, maybe it's not something that you want to follow through on because if they're purporting right to work for the firm and to be in close connection with them, they should have those kind of facts for you of readily available. So that's something that law students should keep in mind and do your research on the recruiter who's reaching out to you just like they're doing their research on you.
Todd Berger (36:30):
So you guys have any ... I'm interested in hearing your thoughts. I mean, I imagine whether you're a law student and the firm's coming to your school and they want to interview you, you're going to ask those questions, which are good, or you're out for a little while and maybe you're interviewing with a firm or you go to a recruiter and they connect you with a firm or whatever it is. But imagine if you ask people, what's the culture at this place? There's no one's ever going to say, "Oh, it's not good." Let me tell you, if I were you, I would run. No one's ever going to say that. But obviously there are places where the culture is bad. And how could you tell when you're being recruited and it's a genuine answer to question and a genuine place you want to be versus the law firm version of trying to sell you a timeshare?
(37:17):
Any thoughts on any of that?
Eve Albert (37:19):
Well, actually, I was thinking about this while I was listening to the episode. I think that a lot of problems, because the downside obviously to having a middleman, so to speak, is you don't get to use your personal judgment to make inferences about the firm and the hiring attorney and whoever else you're going to be working with at that firm. So I think that that's why this is something that Gian was getting at. She was making it a point to say, make sure the recruiter that you are choosing to work with is somebody you can trust somebody that you trust their instincts and trust that they have your best interests at heart. So I think that that is a good workaround for that. If you get the sense from your recruiter that they would lie to you about the culture at a law firm or they wouldn't prioritize making sure that you're comfortable at a law firm, it might be time to go with a different recruiter rather than just taking their word for it.
Nayeli Diaz (38:19):
Yeah. And I think it's important to remember that the recruiters are just people, especially if you talk to them on the phone and they're just not in your LinkedIn chat solely, right? They're just people. And so treating them with respect, but also like you've saying, if it's not a good fit, it's just not a good fit for whatever reason. But also, back to your question, Todd, I think as a law student about culture, it's important to make lists. I like to make lists of the things that you're looking for. So a big part of, at least if we're talking about law firms, culture has a lot to do with billable hours. If their billable hours are say 60 hours a week or 50 or 40 even, not every hour you are at a firm is billable. So if they're saying that you're going to have to bill 45 hours a week, tack on an extra 10 that is just talking to attorneys or doing other things and think about, is that a lot of time for me?
(39:06):
Is that the kind of time that I want to spend away from home? Is that the environment that I'm looking for? Maybe that should tell you that that's a more fast pace, a bit more intense of a firm that is always kind of working and they're a little bit less intentional about personal time, families, things like that. And so I think the billable hours is kind of a good point for which you can gauge the culture of the firms. And looking at their website, looking at the people that are on their website, looking at how long the people have been there, if they've been there for a really long time, that may be a good sign that people really enjoy working there.
Todd Berger (39:36):
I mean, I think it's definitely true like law firms. I will say this, I'm in an academic context and sometimes in an academic context, that's the best way to evaluate how long people have been there just because there are fewer academic jobs and so they're not as easily transferable. But I oftentimes will compare this to academic position. The difference in working in academia and the difference in a law firm is if you were in a law firm in Philadelphia, New York, Chicago, whatever it is, I mean, doesn't have to be even a place like that. But if you don't like the firm you're at, you can leave and people do leave all the time. So I think that's a really good piece of advice. Now, is if you see people who have been there for a long time, that means they're generally happy because lawyers have a lot of career options, and especially if you're willing to work at different law firms, certain areas of law, and you can move firms without moving your house.
(40:27):
So I think that's a really good people choosing to stay at different places. And I think that's probably a pretty good indication that they're happy.
Eve Albert (40:34):
But if you are unable to gauge from those different factors, whether you will like the law firm culture, I think that is a good point in which a legal recruiter can step in. I know while I was listening to the interview, I was thinking about how at my school we do on campus interviews. So you actually speak directly with the employers and we can afford to do that because Buffalo is such a small community, but there's a lot of places like cities that you mentioned where you have to kind of look under the blankets or whatever to see if you can get a hint about certain company culture or law firm culture or the way that they carry about business. So I think that having a legal recruiter that has a history of working with a specific firm especially can be helpful to fill in some of those gaps.
Todd Berger (41:25):
Yeah. Although because I'm distrustful of everyone, right? So how does the recruiter get paid?
Nayeli Diaz (41:33):
Yeah, I think you have to talk to them about their fees. And I think from what they said and from what I've heard from other attorneys and people in my school is a good recruiter should be upfront with you. They should automatically tell you, "Hey, if I work for the firm, the firm is the one who's paying me, or if you get the job, I'm going to take this percentage of the fee." That should be super clear. And if they don't voluntarily give that information, go ahead and ask for them, maybe that forgot, but that's also a good gauge. If they're being kind of cagey about how they're getting paid, maybe that's not what you want to go with.
Todd Berger (42:01):
And we talked a little bit about careers and obviously as a lawyer working with a recruiter and trying to find a place to work, but there are obviously lawyers who become recruiters. And so any insights on maybe people are listening and they're thinking, "Is that something I want to do in the future?" How does that happen? Any idea what motivates people to transition from the active practice of law to recruiting lawyers?
Nayeli Diaz (42:24):
I thought that that was really interesting that they talked about how specifically at Jan's place of work that all the recruiters were attorneys. And that feels like it makes a lot of sense to me because if you're specifically recruiting attorneys, and it's probably important to know a lot of the lingo, being able to read someone's resume and actually understand, okay, what did they actually mean when they said they did mock trial or they did moot court more than just in an abstract sense, somebody who has been through it and experienced it. And often probably people who have been practicing attorneys have been in firms and they know how firms are probably going to be looking at the resumes and the cover letters and analyzing that stuff. And so it's something interesting for me as a person who likes talking to people. I think when you ask what kind of person would do that, probably a person like me, a person who likes talking to people who likes helping people who I like maybe ... I mean, I like the practice of law, but maybe in 20 years the excitement dies down and you're like, I still love the law, but maybe I want to do something different in the same field helping people who were like me.
(43:24):
I think that's a really interesting thing to think about and kind of keep in the back of your mind.
Todd Berger (43:28):
Yeah, I think their experience is important too. Like you said, it gives them credibility. So when they say something to you about a particular place, it's like they know what they're talking about because they've been there in part, which makes sense. And I don't know, I imagine I've not been a recruiter nor thought about becoming a recruiter, but I would imagine if I was going to think about that, I would think that the law can be very stressful. I'm sure recruiting is very stressful, but it's probably nice to help people find jobs and to have them get to the place that they want to go. And it's probably rewarding compared to some things you can do in the practice of law, which can be very adversarial and stressful in a different kind of way. So I imagine there's a lot of satisfaction in helping people get to where they want to go.
Eve Albert (44:10):
Yeah. And I mean, I feel like every month on this podcast, I am like, "Oh, I want to practice law, but if I didn't, what could I do? " I don't want to give the impression that I'm just getting this degree for no reason. That being said, I think it's nice that we have seen so many alternative careers because like you're saying, it's so easy to get burnt out in this career. So I think that having something in your back pocket like, "Oh, but one day I really want to pursue helping other people find jobs. One day I really want to pursue legal education, this, that, however many other things there are that lawyers can do out there." It's nice that that's always an option. And I think that anytime we can open a new door for somebody being like, "Hey, this is an option, by the way." It's a great thing because the law can feel a little claustrophobic at times.
(45:02):
I mean, it's really rewarding. I know every day I'm grateful that I chose this path, but it definitely is nice to know that there are certain paths you could take.
Nayeli Diaz (45:12):
Yeah, I think a lot of law schools probably have dual programs. And so here specifically at my school, we have a big JD MBA program where people go and get their MBA for a portion of their law school and a lot of them end up realizing maybe they want to do a JD Plus job, which is a job in which you don't necessarily have to have a law degree. But if you do, it puts you a bit of an advantage, maybe higher up on the totem pole starting out, where it's important for those jobs that you know have a background in the law so you can understand it. But sometimes you have to be barred, sometimes you may not have to be barred. And it's a good thing for people to consider midway through if they're like, "Oh, actually I think I would like to work at a company, but it's hard to get in- house immediately.
(45:47):
So maybe I could do something if I'm doing an MBA in marketing, start there." And it's an advantage that I have my JD. It's a plus that I have my JD for that and that kind of stuff.
Todd Berger (45:57):
And being a recruiter is like a JD Plus job, right? For sure.
Nayeli Diaz (46:01):
Yeah.
Todd Berger (46:03):
Thanks for tuning into this month's episode. If you're looking for even more content curated just for you, head over to the ABA Law Student Division website and become a member. We want to make sure that we're making the best content for you. Let us know what you'd like to learn more about by telling us in a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Finally, we'd like to thank our production partners at Moraine Media and to thank the ABA Law Student Division for making this show a reality. We'll be back next month with our next episode. See you then.