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Small group leaders, pastors, and more discussing strategies for growth and community in church groups. The Small Group Network is an international ministry that equips churches to engage in deeper discipleship and community.
James Browning: Hello, and
welcome to F G squared.
Steve Gladen the global pastor of small
groups from Saddleback church polls
from his over 25 years of experience.
To encourage and equip listeners like
you to lead small group ministry.
So let's listen and learn together.
Derek Olson: Welcome to SG squared.
Steve Gladden on small groups.
Derrick here with the
man, the myth, the legend.
Steve Gladden.
Steve, how are you doing my friend?
Steve Gladen: Hey, going really well.
It's, uh, it's spring is officially in,
in super swing, uh, here, even though,
you know, there's always parts of the
US that are doing other goofy stuff,
and I tell you, it's, it's, it's crazy.
Life is crazy.
Life is busy.
Life is full.
But what else do you do?
What else do you do in life?
But you just keep moving on.
Derek Olson: spring has sprung
and it was so great to see you
a couple weeks ago down in SoCal
and uh, have some coffee with you.
But I was overwhelmed, you know, 'cause
up here where I live in the northwest,
a couple weeks ago, it was mid-winter
break for the kids in, in school.
So we all tried to get down to
Calia to get some sun, right?
And it was like.
Mid seventies and gentle breeze.
And, and then I come back, I
go from that right beach life,
mid seventies gentle breeze to
colossal hailstorm, like raining down
as you're, um, trying to run inside.
So what a tale of two worlds.
But yeah, spring is sprung and
I cannot believe it's already
this far along in the year.
Steve Gladen: I try to
tell you not to move away.
Try to tell you not to move away,
but you know, all I can do is try
to coach and it's up to you to.
Derek Olson: Well give us, give our
listeners a little preview of what we're
getting into in this exciting episode.
Steve Gladen: Yeah, I mean, as you
guys saw from the title, you know,
three mistakes to, to avoid with your
Lead Pastor and, uh, I, I think as
I've been, uh, chatting with other
small group pastors around the, the US
especially, uh, these kind three things
have kind of kicked up pretty strong.
And it's also true because, you
know, uh, I saw them with Rick.
I see them with Andy too, and Andy's a
lot newer, so I have less relationship
with him, but you still see him.
And there's still three things I
think are super important because
as we're doing small group ministry,
we're always working with a lead.
Or a senior pastor.
And so that's just the,
the nature of the beast.
So, uh, it, it's important that we
kind of go in with our head screwed on
super, super, you know, screwed on that.
This is a, a tough analogy.
I was gonna say su screwed on straight.
Uh, but, you know, you just wanna make
sure that you're in lockstep with your,
uh, who's ever leading the temple courts
as you're leading the house to house.
Derek Olson: Yeah, I think this is
a very important critical, uh, topic
because we all wanna do the best we
can in our small group ministries or
whatever ministries we're leading.
But like you said, um, we gotta be syncing
with the lead or supervising pastor.
'cause uh, God wants us to be
unified, but we can really only go
as high as we are healthy with them.
So let's jump into this.
Um, I'll read off.
Mistake number one.
And then Steve, you can jump in and I'll,
I'll, uh, give some thoughts as we go.
Steve Gladen: Yeah, and I, and I love
where you, you went with that too
because you know, so much of this
is about relationship and if the
enemy can fracture temple courts and
house to house, what a win for the
enemy to make the church ineffective.
And I think these are some
things that'll help with that.
So.
Yeah, the the first one is, uh, we're
gonna talk about is wrong assumptions.
And I, I think the number one thing
that, that I would say, and I, and
we're gonna throw an article in the,
um, in the show notes so you can
kind of see an article I wrote off.
That's kind of what spawned all this,
but when we assume the motives of
someone else most times are wrong,
and I can't tell you so often.
Because of a lack of communications.
So often what can happen is.
You think something about the
senior pastor or the lead pastor
and it, and it just, it isn't true.
It, it never was.
And, and we can spiritualize it
and say it's the enemy that planted
the thought, or maybe it's our
insecurity that planted the thought.
Or maybe there's a number of
things that can plant the thought.
But bottom line, it's not godly And I,
I think the number one thing you just
can't, uh, do is assume wrong assumptions.
With that.
So it's really important because, uh,
the danger of assigning motives when we
don't have all the facts is when it gets
real dangerous, which requires us to,
uh, to, to beef up the communication.
Derek, I don't know if you've ever
had this before, but a lot of times
if you assume something, and I know
I've been married, you know, 35 years.
I know you've been married 20
ish, you know, in that zone.
I don't wanna put you on the
spot to remember how many years
you've been married, but go ahead.
I'm putting you on the
Derek Olson: It will be 25 this September.
Steve Gladen: Wow.
25.
So, so there's a lot of times in
relationships is that, you know,
sometimes you can thinking that you
know what they're talking about and
it leads you to, you know, the wrong
assumptions with where you're going.
Derek Olson: Well said.
And yeah, having spent years in ministry,
not as many as you, but, um, I've been
guilty of this myself, you know, uh,
assuming that I know, you know, what
my, uh, my lead pastor's thinking.
Um, but like your notes say,
I'm not able to be in his shoes,
and I don't necessarily don't
know the weight he carries.
And you know, he's seeing
stuff I'm not seeing right.
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
And, and I, and I think it's, the
other thing too is it forces us
to, um, a lot of times we, we go to
assumptions because we're getting lazy
on the communication skill side of it.
And so what I would really,
with all three of these points,
you're gonna see a common thread.
Relationship and communication
that has to be fine tuned.
And one of the things that we assume
sometimes, because we don't want
to dig down and find out, Hey, what
did you mean by that statement?
Or, I saw you do this, did this mean
that you, you didn't like what I
did, or I, you did like what I did?
But I, I think the main part of it
is, is that you've gotta go that extra
mile, sharpen up the relationship a
little bit, and, and on, on our side,
you gotta go with, with the, you
know, sharpening our communication.
And I think that'll, that plays into the
next point too, that we're gonna talk a
little bit more on, is that you gotta, you
gotta work at, at this relationship piece.
Derek Olson: Yeah, I would concur
that the communication piece is so
critical, um, because it's crazy how
the mind plays tricks on you, right?
And then we forget that.
We've got an enemy that's coming
to kill, steal, destroy, divide.
Of course, he wants to divide not
just relationships, but church staff
because the stakes are so high.
And so if he can get us not communicating
and being lazy and assuming, man, it's
scary what can happen, but that's why
we've gotta over communicate and just
have those, those conversations, Hey,
could I get some clarity on this?
Or whatever it is.
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
And so the, and the wrong
assumptions, here's, here's the
main conclusion that it says, you
know, choose to believe the best.
And I think that's one of
the things we have to always
remember with our lead pastor.
Choose to believe the very best in them.
Ask God to give you his love and grace.
And to help you give and give you
grace, expecting nothing in return.
And then I concluded up here with this,
you'll never know the full impact of the
lead pastor's world, and that is so true.
I mean, I've been, I was more close
to Rick than I am to Andy right now.
But I'll tell you, you just don't know
the brevity of what they go through
and what they're feeling and all that.
And then I conclude with this, help
them see you as a friend, not as a
foe and with the wrong assumptions.
Derek Olson: Well said.
All right, let's jump
to mistake number two.
Impatience.
Steve Gladen: Yeah, and this
is, this is a big one because.
I am so guilty of this part of,
you know, where I'm always at is
I always want things to move on my
clock at my time and doing it my way.
And part of impatience
what I find is that I.
Is when it doesn't go my way, a lot
of times my trust in God having the
situation, uh, I kind of feel like,
Hey, I gotta grab that wheel from God.
I've gotta help him drive the car.
I've gotta help do these things.
And many times when things aren't
clicking the way I want, uh, again,
these all tie together so well.
Because what happens is, is.
When I get impatient,
I'm not trusting God.
And then when I'm not trusting God,
I get more paranoid about, you know,
okay, why isn't this happening?
Why, why are things not, not in
sync with the way they should be?
And so many times what
happens is, is that I.
God is working things in the background
that, that I can't see and I think through
so many things and I, and I, like I
said, I have more data points with Rick,
but there's so many things in the small
group ministry I wanted to see happen.
But God was working in the background
and so often when you're looking
back, it's so much easier to see
God's hand than when you're in the
moment or when you're looking forward.
And so what I've said is, and
we say time and time again is.
When you're in that place of impatience
is you've gotta pray a little bit more and
you gotta balance that out with, and this
is where it sounds like I'm talking outta
both sides of my mouth, but when you're
impatient, a lot of times we're saying,
you know, Hey, pray a little bit more.
Trust God, he's working
for you in the background.
But also at the same time, what can
help with your lead pastor is not, not
being what we call the bad general.
There's the tale of the good
general and the bad General.
The bad general just takes orders
and executes 'em, and a lot of times.
When we're trying to build a
small group ministry, we, we wanna
please, we wanna do exactly what
the lead pastor's wanting to do.
But in essence, what a good
general does is that they'll still
end up executing whatever the,
the command and control wants.
But what they'll do is they'll always
update them and let them know of
what's going on and they'll say, Hey,
more troops have come onto the hill.
Uh, our casualty count's gonna
be higher and things, and
they'll give more data points.
And then the lead pastor in
this analogy can go, okay, we'll
still do that, or we won't do it.
And so what can happen sometimes
is that when we just acquiesce
and do whatever they say, verse
be able to give good input.
What happens is it, it deteriorates
the relationship and there's
no iron sharpening iron, uh,
as the Bible talks about.
And if you've ever seen the iron
sharpen iron, there're sparks sometimes.
And so the, it is a delicate
dance of, uh, you know, trying to.
Uh, be a good general and share the
things that need to be done and why they
need to be done and, and those things.
But also being content if
your way doesn't get picked.
And part of that will help us lead to
being able to say, okay, I'll lean a
little bit more into prayer because
I know if I've ever in a spot where,
um, we have a difference of opinion.
I know that God can change his mind much
quicker than I can through prayer and the
Lord and the Holy Spirit moving on him.
And so there's a place in this whole
scheme that says, when impatient
creeps in, there's a factor
of trust that needs to happen.
There's also a factor of me showing up
the right way, but also being able to
say, if I don't get my way, then I'll,
I'll lead, uh, the best way I can with
the way the lead pastor wants to go.
Derek Olson: Well said
impatience, mistake number two.
so I guess the opposite of that
would be exercise patience.
It's one of the.
Fruit of the
spirit, right?
Steve Gladen: yeah.
Let me read the conclusion with it.
Uh, that's in the article.
You guys can read this too down
below, but it says, we're only
responsible to suggest and pray.
God is more than able, uh,
God is more than able to work.
He is.
Wow.
Sorry, I just messed up
my screen right here.
I don't know if that's
Derek Olson: You want me to read it?
Steve Gladen: that's an edit piece.
Let's, let's first off, edit that out.
I'll, I'll finish.
Gosh, why is it doing that?
My screen is just freaking out.
Every time I try to move this thing, it's
trying to move it out of the thing, so.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna
curse here on the screen.
Okay.
Let me read it and then
just pick it up there.
Edit it out.
Okay.
Let me read the, the
conclusion piece right there.
It says We are only responsible
to suggest and pray.
God is more than able to work.
He will.
In their lives and without our help.
When we trust in God, our job
now is to be patient, which is
exactly what Derek was saying.
You know, the opposite
of impatience is patient.
Our job is to be patient with the
process and to trust him to do the work.
Sometimes God is working
in the background.
And it doesn't tell us.
And isn't that just like, God not to
tell us every move that he's making?
So the first one right there was being
able to say, you know, the first mistake
was don't make wrong assumptions.
The second one is understand I,
uh, you know, work on impatience.
And then Derek number three is.
Derek Olson: Number three is the best.
We save the best for last defensiveness.
Steve Gladen: Yeah, and
defensiveness can come in through
a couple different gates here.
One is when we feel we are wronged
and then we can get super defensive.
Another aspect of it is we're,
we're we, we are wrong and we know
we're wrong, but we'll still get
defensive just because we're, we're
broken in, in our human nature.
And then there's part when.
There, there's a, a mix of responsibility
of who's wrong and who's right.
And part of what happens in this case
is that, you know, part of what we gotta
do is again, open up that communication
to get clarifying statements done.
You know, you said this,
is that what you meant?
Uh, with, with, you know, anything that,
where communication has gone wrong,
but also just trying to understand.
From their side of the equation and
just being able to say, how could I
have, uh, helped the situation out?
Or how could I have cleared
the situation up better?
And there's many times where, uh,
I've, there's those shoes where
Rick, I felt was more wrong than me.
Uh, and so I, I got defensive
or I just kind of messed up and.
Fellows misunderstood and I
got defensive, or we were both
miscommunicating and we were both,
you know, defensive to each other.
And so it's important that you start
to look at this whole point and to say,
you know, bottom line is we're we're
here to serve the the lead pastor.
And what we wanna do is be able to
get to that point where whenever
defensiveness creeps into our heart,
we need to hit the pause button.
And be able to say it's a good
sign that, you know, there's a, uh,
some communication that's broken.
Now, if it's really, really spicy,
there may be a time where you just
gotta take a time out and to say, Hey,
uh, I'm a little bit out of sorts.
Can we talk about this tomorrow?
Or, there may be a time where you can,
you know, jump into it right then.
But the main thing is, is that
use defensiveness as a way to say.
Uh, like the lights on
your car, click, click on.
You know, if it says, Hey, low oil,
you know, it means you gotta address
something when defensiveness happens.
That's a light coming on your relational
dashboard with your lead pastor and
saying, Hey, something's clicking here.
I've gotta get to the root of it
before it builds into something else.
And the, the thing about all three of
these, you know, when you go to wrong
assumptions or impatience or when you go
to, um, defensiveness, is that if they're
not addressed and you just make nice.
What can happen is, is that they will
fester and they'll create larger things.
So defensiveness is a big piece of it.
Derek Olson: Yeah, I, this was, um,
something I've definitely dealt with in
my ministry experience at different stops.
You know, relationships can be messy.
Church, you know, community
can be a beautiful mess.
And so much of it in staff struggles was,
you know, often due to, you know, some.
Other pastor's, defensiveness or mine
and what you're saying here is so key.
'cause God wants us to
have that soft heart right?
So that we're, um, not only working
together in unity, but man, we've
got a heart to pray for our pastor
or those that we're working with.
So it's definitely something we've
got to be able to check our hearts
right, to make sure we're not
getting that defensive hard heart.
Steve Gladen: Yeah, and it's
important for each one of us.
You know, it, it's a calling
and it's a privilege to, to
work for your lead pastor.
You, you're, you're there to be, uh,
having a strong relationship with them
and, and be there and, and support
them in any, in any way possible.
I.
And you don't, don't want to be
that person who just, you know,
is, you know, apologizing for
everything 'cause you're a pleaser.
But at the same point, you wanna be
able to look exactly into your life
and into where you're at and say,
which part of this do I need to own?
Which part of it is do I need
to clean up in communication?
And where can I build up the
relational capital so that.
I can, I can talk with my, my lead pastor.
You know, the main reason why I
really wanted to get into this is
because that relationship, that
symbiotic relationship between temple
courts and house to house is such a
delicate one, and it's so special.
I.
So often what can happen in, in ministry
is that Temple Courts and house to
house tends to be silos to each other.
And, and part of what can happen
is, is a wedge can be brought
through each one of these, uh, you
know, mistakes to avoid because.
You know, when you, when you have wrong
assumptions, because you know you're not
doing good communication when you can have
impatience because you're not trusting.
And when you can get defensive because you
may not feel eye, uh, you're on eye to eye
and you can't do conflict resolution, what
can happen is, is that that hurts the,
the big, that hurts the church overall.
And what you wanna be able to do
is use these three indicators.
You know, as you're dealing with your
lead pastor to be able to say, okay, how,
how, when these things, when they light
up on my dashboard, how can I use them
to say, okay, now what do I need to do?
How do I address each one of these when,
when there's wrong assumptions, I've
gotta go, I've gotta believe the best
in my lead pastor and, and start to use
communication to help you with that.
When I'm impatient or small groups aren't
clicking quick enough or we're not in sync
and stuff like that, be able to be, have
the patience, but also be able to have the
good general, bad general in the back of
my mind and saying, I want to be the good
general as best as possible, but I want
to trust God if it's not working as much.
And then in the, in the area
of defensiveness, I want us
to be able to say, when that
lights up, be able to say, okay.
It, it's, it's a privilege to work here.
It may be a little bit messy, but
what I wanna make sure happens is
that I wanna make sure that I am
leaning into that and being able
to say if I'm defensive, own what I
can own, but also try to work on the
communication skills that are out there.
Derek Olson: Well said.
Well, there is your three
mistakes to avoid with your
lead or supervising pastor.
And like Steve said, we're
gonna have the show notes.
Uh, linked, uh, below in this
episode so that you can click on
those and read this if you want.
Share it.
And, um, Stevie, any, any
other closing thoughts?
Steve Gladen: Yeah, I mean, di just
remember this is, uh, there's many
things I, I don't wanna oversize this.
Like I said before, it's, it's quite
the relationship that happens between
temp courts and hostile house.
There's also a balance that, you know,
it is a spiritual battle and wherever the
enemy can creep in through any crack that
he can get into, he'll, he'll do that.
But these three things I've seen as I've
been talking a little bit more in these.
Do drums of winter.
Uh, a lot of times when I guess that's
overcast in a lot of part of the country.
You know, little things fester up now
and then these three things that we've
had great conversations about and
that's why we wanted to bring 'em to
you and just say, if any of these three
are creeping up, make sure you address
'em and take the high road with it.
Derek Olson: That's right.
Take the high road.
And, um, we hope that this
episode has encouraged
everybody watching or listening.
Um, we hope that this empowers
you to lead healthier, better.
Small group ministry where you're
at, and we hope this one specifically
helps you to have a better relationship
with your lead or supervising pastor.
So until next time, we will see you later.
Steve Gladen: See you later
James Browning: Thank you for listening.
Don't forget to subscribe
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