Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Navvai Shift – AI & Business Insights
Welcome to The Navvai Shift, the podcast where business leaders in finance share their journeys, challenges, and unfiltered thoughts on artificial intelligence. We dive deep into how AI is shaping industries, uncovering real-world insights from those driving innovation.
Subscribe for expert conversations on AI, automation, and the future of business.
the pleasure of ree scoffield who's the
CEO of Pete mortgages hopefully be
giving a lot of insight we'll be delving
a bit deeper into what he's seeing in
the space What challenges he's also
facing in the space so reys quick
backstory what's Peak about what former
CEO former CEO now I sold it so uh yeah
PE Peak mortgage and protection well how
it came about was I was a corporate
shield for years and years and years I
worked at ly banking group uh started in
mortgages and work in I started flogging
people PPI when they were ringing to
activate the credit cards and I was not
very good at it because I didn't believe
in it and it was turned out I was right
I like being proofed right anyway I
worked my way through ly banking group I
end up working in the state agency
mortgage brokers um and actually started
or ended up running a a big team got 27
mortgage advisor working for me between
well and Garden City all the way up to
Lincoln across the other side of
birmingh from where I am and I I was
really good at it but it wasn't that
exciting making someone else a load of
money so I thought I'm learning some
really good stuff here I reckon I could
do this so I set up Peak coming up to
six years ago now and it was just me and
then it was just me and an admin and
then the team grew and the team grew we
went from strength to strength and we
were riding that wave as well I think of
covid when you turned up to work as a
morg advice you had 10 people who wanted
to buy a house um so yeah we grew and
grew and grew I'll be honest I didn't
ever really like being a practice
principle because it's quite stressful
having to worry about what other people
are doing within your business and that
that's certainly a challenge that we
might get into um from the ai ai side of
things because actually that's huge
opportunity because you you can only
handle so much in in one brain and um
anyway I got involved in setting up some
other side project so co-founder of a
conveyancing business fix my
legals and I thought I don't need to be
working this hard you know working
myself into the ground to keep spinning
all these plates I wanted my team to be
locked after so I ended up selling Peak
to John and Lisa the guys at mortgage
first who are great guys I thought hey I
can I can work with these guys for a
couple of years so now I'll keep myself
entertained in the main by advising on
protection we're doing some really
exciting stuff in the employee benefits
space as well so death in service
benefit private medical insurance
because I think employers have to work
harder to stand out now as well when
especially in a competitive employment
space where maybe you've got people who
are tempted to go and earn that extra 50
Quid a month after tax well they might
not be so tempted if they've got health
insurance and benefits like that so
that's what I'm doing now and that's
been the journey so far really
wow amazing so you launched peak in
2019 yeah so I know that is you got
quite a few Awards under under your
belt yeah kind get a bit more insight so
what was what driven that success of
reaching so many awards and being an
award-winning firm well I mean the the
big thing that I thought from the
beginning is if you've got a really good
reputation people are going to want to
come and see you for for for what it is
that they need so for me it was always
about is this person going to give me a
five star review at the end of the
process and you you you go out and you
do that and then all of a sudden I I set
up the business in a small darbishire
town within a month or two we already
had the most five star reviews in our
town six months later you've got the
most in the county we never quite
cracked the most nationally but uh to be
honest I won't want to work that hard
but but then you create this lovely
attraction business where people want to
come and work with you uh as a customer
but then also as advisors it was
fantastic from a recruitment point of
you I think we ended up highest advisor
head count we had at one point was about
19 including me but recruitment was so
easy because people wanted to come and
work for us probably because they'd lost
a load of business to us o o over the
proceeding I I know my name was mud with
some of the big corporate estate agents
uh but they did all my recruitment for
me because you know when they when they
put on their company WhatsApp group
saying it will be a disciplinary if you
engage with Reese's social media content
people like oh you know I want to see
what I want to see what he's about so I
won't name names but yeah thank you very
much uh it rhymes with
hols
fantastic but it always sent us say if
you can't beat them you have to join
them exactly exactly and we we we're
lucky enough to work with some great
advisors over the years
and and and I think advisors good
advisors are are professionals who earn
a good living and you got to treat them
like a professional who earns a good
living you can't treat them like kids or
anything like that it's all about
keeping them pointed in vaguely the
right direction and empowering them to
to to do well and succeed at the end of
the day so yeah you know it's not
complex how I decided to do my business
I'm actually quite old-fashioned and
simple in in my apprach Ro to things if
it just works we just yeah we do that if
it ain't break broke don't fix it
although saying that sometimes consider
breaking it if you can make it better
but yeah you know it it was it worked
all right for us nice I've seen that you
have a a lot of dog owners that work for
your company as well oh yeah that that
was really really cool uh so there is a
bit of a backstory to this a I love
animals my wife's a Veterinary nurse so
we've got a house full of w and Strays
and things like that so so you know
every one of our animals was probably
found in a bin at some point but you
know they're well they're well loved now
but the funny thing is we were working
with a network that was not very
enlightened when it came to social media
so we had to get everything approved and
and it was so
complicated and I I realized pretty
early on that if I just posted about the
office pets we got more engagement I
didn't need to get it approved so my
life was a lot easier so that kind of
guided us down this route but then
customers really like coming to the
office with with their dogs or coming to
meet the animals and all of a sudden we
do a lot of stuff in person still you
you you you you got people it was very
disarming because they were they were in
a relaxed environment and and we know
that people do still buy from people and
people come in and and what says it all
is when there's no dogs in and people
will come in and say oh where's such and
such that's lovely really I I think
sometimes the dogs are more Miss than
the St
but you know that's fine it's a nice
touch isn't it yeah I think so I think
so but I think there's an awful
lot I think the big big problem with
financial advice and financial services
is there's this Us and Them and creating
barriers and and almost a holier than
than thou attitude when it comes to
dealing with the customers some advisor
talk down to people and that was always
something I was dead set against so you
know i' I've been on the all all the
coaching courses and all that for
working it with with and managing teams
and they say you know when you're giving
feedback to to one of your morage
advisors don't sit the other side of a
table as them because you're creating a
barrier and things like that well when I
first started and this was pre-co no
social distancing or anything like that
I used to sit the same side of the desk
as my customer at a big second screen
and we' fill everything in together and
customers absolutely loved it because
they felt that they I was just there
facilitating and and at every decision
and I guided them the right away but
every decision was their own decision
and you didn't get any of the second
guessing and they were immediately on
board with everything that you did and
that's that's my big thing is I I love
customers to feel involved in the
process I still do it now with
protection I don't do anything just over
the telephone I'm either in person
screen sharing or I'm on teams screen
sharing and it the customer should feel
that they've bought something they want
and need not that they've had their arm
twisted and been pressured into doing
anything
a lot a lot of people tend to have
client client-based businesses but all
don't never really prioritize a client
had the client as a Forefront in mind
and I think it's very clear that you
completely reverse engineered and ensure
you had a client client vision and goals
in mind at all
times exactly and and that's that's what
it's all about at the end of the day is
does that client feel that they've got
what they needed rightly or wrongly
because you know they they'll have their
own perceptions of of what they
wanted but it's my job to answer that
and the other thing is is if you're an
adviser and you're not answering a
question or you're not ticking a
customer's box they're going to find
someone else who's going to so you look
at our conversion rates over the years a
it helped that we were in the main only
dealing with people who' already decided
they want to use us before they picked
up the phone because of our reviews and
that sort of thing but but we were
converting 90% plus of our first
appointments to signups it was it was
really really high and you absolutely
didn't get that in any other walk of
advice life where where you had a
conversion rate like that we very rarely
lost stuff to a competitor um but it was
the groundw that went into it right from
the beginning that's that's that's
really
impressive very impressive you work
quite hard on that yeah yeah so so from
what I understand the mortgage industry
has gone through a lot of changes you
know Rising interest rates we're going
to touch on that you know probably you
know half to this question as well but
um you know I think when it comes down
to Rising interest rates affordability
changes increase regulations you know
what has been the biggest shift in how
you work with clients
today you know what I would say is the
most
fundamental shift in our industry in the
last five years is covid making everyone
more comfortable to do video calls
because we used to be very
geographically limited because of me
being stuck in the mud about how I
wanted to do things properly and
involving the client in that process and
and having that that visual side of
things as
well and I think if we hadn't had this
huge once in A- lifetime event which was
obviously very very terrible but it it
desensitize the whole world to video
calling in the space of six weeks I
don't think we'll ever see a c change
like that ever again I kind of hope we
don't have anything like that happen
again but but all of a sudden that just
opened us up to the fact okay we could
do exactly the same thing with a a a
customer in L end as we could in Jon o
groos and we're somewhere in the middle
it doesn't matter as long as they got a
stable internet connection the process
doesn't need to change and I think
technolog is fantastic but sometimes
there needs to be a push to get people
to go towards it um and you look at
interesting there was a talk yesterday
and there had two FBI agents talking
about how important multiactor
authentication was and if you ask most
people about multiactor authentication
they'll tell you it's pain in the ass
unless they've been the victim of having
the details hacked and then all of a
sudden yeah they're really really on
board with it so I I think that has been
the hugest change the technology was
there and it had been there for years it
just all of a sudden Force everyone to
deal with it yeah I'm with you I'm with
you speaking speaking of
change yeah Bank of England yeah yeah
yeah I mean I I think the real
interesting thing is again so yes so
they had a presentation for the chief
Economist of TSB and say all these price
changes are kind of baked in anyway so
we kind of think we know we know where
things are where we where things are
going I I think we we're very CLE C in
this world now where base rate's not
going to be point something percent um
ever again no probably no not unless
something really really bad happens and
then we got bigger things to worry about
at the end of the day so I think it's
it's it's almost nice as much as you see
Doom and Gloom in the papers but that
tends to be which billionaire owns them
and what their agenda is but as much as
we see doom and glue in there if you
look at the coold face actually all we
want is stability people still buy and
sell houses for the same reasons that
they've always done they're growing
families they're moving jobs they you
want to change a scenery that's always
going to happen the fact that we've got
a bit of stability now is brilliant for
advisors because we we've all been there
when rates are going up I mean I
remember when the when when base rate
shot up after the the the mini budget
and and things all went rather wrong and
I've got a funny story about
that and we've been there when rates are
coming down and it's hard work as an
advisor to keep on top of that the funny
story is you could tell the world was
taking it seriously because I got a
phone call in the morning from ITV News
not the local ITV News the national one
saying right interest rates are going
crazy we want to do a bit on this can we
come out and film I said yeah absolutely
fine come out and film what I did
realize when I said come out and film
this was the point where I had bleached
blonde hair and I've turned up to the
office wearing a slitherin jumper from
Harry Potter so they do this bit Harry
Potter if you look really really closely
they got me to get a calculator out they
type something into a calculator so I'm
typing boobies into a calculator if you
look really close do but I look like
Draco Maloy from Harry Potter with my
bleach blonde hair and my
slinder but you know it the stability is
great and you look at talking to other
advisor it seems to be across the board
everyone's had a very good very good
January
just with that you know nothing has
changed really if anything rates have
gone up last month but we still had a
really strong January and that bows
quite
well perfect so also just touching on
actual Peak as well so you have quite a
hybrid approach leveraging Tech but
still ensuring you have that human touch
so how do you decide on what gets
automated and what essentially stays
personal I'd say the
the customer facing side of things still
has to be quite
personal Peak really probably made an
name for ourselves when it came to
helping firsttime buyers and and and
excelling at that don't get me wrong we
we saw anybody but we got a name for
helping first time buyers and part of
that was probably our our branding know
not really doing Suze relaxed approach
you know I'm wearing my peat still today
and
and you know I'm on brand and and um I
think those people had not done it
before they didn't know what they didn't
know and needed an arm around them and a
bit of a guiding hand and there's so
much that you got to do there with okay
coaching you guys through how do you
deal with the state agents how do you do
this how do you do that and you need the
personal element and especially when it
comes to as important as the mortgage is
protection side of things and I've
always been big on my protection fact
I've got I've got my trophy here that I
got y say for being a a top protection
advisor anyway the now I'm back at it I
I I gotta keep appearances and and show
that I can still do it and but I think
the thing is is you still need a person
for protection because if you ask a
customer do you need income protection
they're going to tell you no absolutely
not what's that because I I I was on
income protection task force one year
and I think everyone was a bit taking
back because we had a Lo load of
Industry people on there talking about
this this this this podcast at the end
summarizing talking about how great this
week had been and and the first thing I
done was go on the local spotted page
and said right I'm on this podcast what
does everyone think about income
protection everyone thinks it's PPI
still it's absolutely not it's a really
important product but no no customer in
my memory has ever come to me and said
oh I want to do income protection even
though it's the most commonly used
protection policy there is so I think
you still need that and and I think this
is where AI struggles as well AI is
fantastic tool but we had a saying in a
state agency and it's buyers are liars
and they might not might not
deliberately lie but it's only as good
as the information that this get gets
given and any advisor will tell you that
getting the right information from a
client is really really difficult and
there's an awful lot of teasing that out
of them sometimes where are the
opportunities though I think that the
the the growth areas that we'll see is
with open Banking and stuff like that
where actually we're not going to have
to necessarily do a fat find anymore and
you see this around the world in in in
some parts of the world where they don't
even ask for all the income verification
and stuff that we've got to do they just
scrape it all digitally and and you get
a fairly instant mortgage decision for
people and and I think that might be
where where we see things uh where we
see things going but I am getting ahead
of myself here I think the the the the
the bits where Tech can really help is
probably the heavy lifting to make that
personal side of things work a little
bit better and it can be complex stuff
not I mean complex stuff but it's it can
be stuff like having a a decent CRM
system that keeps track of your renewals
and your reminders for for your
remortgages and things like that stop
the lender snaffling them off because
the lender doesn't want to pay you
another procuration fee they they're
going to try and get that so you need
something to to to help there or it can
even be just having a cly link so
there's none of this toing and throwing
oh when are you free I'm not free then
you
know League link just stick it in the
diary yeah and I think that's that's
just complete no-brainer stuff that
advisers can do we're also in this this
age of social media as well where most
advisors get a lot of the work from
and a lot of people struggle with video
which we know video is the big growth
area we just get what your customers are
telling you know what questions you
getting from your customers tell chat
gbt to write you a script about that
question and film it you don't even have
to think anymore you still got a human
being on the end presenting it at the
moment but I mean one of my one of my
advisers sent something that they' got
AI to create the whole video the other
day and that was pretty impressive I
have no idea how he did that yet but
it's that heavy lifting to make you
everything is just geared to make it so
that time with the customer is probably
a straightforward and hassle free as
poss possible amazing that's that's
that's beautiful insight has there been
have there been any tools or platforms
that have been a real difference in
streamlining streamlining operations or
improving client client experience from
your side of things yeah I'd say the big
thing for us certainly when I was
running the sh
and it was my it was entirely my baby
was I've mentioned it already but it's
the renewal process because at the time
it's probably less less regular now
because we were doing a lot of two-year
fix rate business
and it's with all the will in the
world real life takes over and there's
other plates to spin and sometimes you
take your your your your eyes off the
prize but I think from our point of view
just having a CRM system that that would
send out a reminder and almost prompt us
as well as as the firm to get in touch
with our customer six months before
their fix rate end date was really
really useful and and you could trap
that with a spreadsheet or something
like that but making sure it was
actioned that's a bit of a pain in the
butt then and then if you want to you
know load load that into a a separate
mailing system again that's another pain
in the but there's plenty of systems out
there which will do all that for you and
they don't even need to cost that much
money okay it might be a a a hundred or
so quid a month but actually if you work
out the the people hours that would have
to go into doing that process manually
that system is is very much probably
cheaper yeah um than than doing that and
I think even with the conveniency side
of things so co-founder of a conveniency
business fix my legals and and the big
issue with conveyancing is always
communication and customers saying oh I
don't get updates or or when you're an
advisor you find out after completion
that it's completed and you're like well
I should have known that CU I need to
put all their insurances live this
customers currently not insured well big
part of that was we just automated a lot
of the update so a box gets ticked
everyone who needs to know then gets a
message come out to say you know this is
what's happened this is what you need to
do it it you don't need all those people
wasting their time on hold trying to
catch each other over lunch and stuff
like that it's just the the automated sh
sharing of information with everyone
that needs to have it saves so much time
and so much aggro so you know I I think
it's um there's so much stuff and we
haven't even scraped the surface there's
loads of other stuff we can do but I
think it's those quite tedious manual
things which are quite simple yeah where
I would start as as anyone thinking how
can Tech help me think about the the the
simple things but that are a bit time
consuming because there's a probably a
very easy off-the-shelf tool to help you
deal with that yeah time is the most
precious commodity that we have on our
hands exactly especially if you're on
your own firm you you are going to find
something to do every single hour of the
day yeah re re you said something
interesting in relations to fix my
legals of course we've done a little bit
of research and we know that you have
cut conveyancing cost by 60% so oh yeah
turnarounds yeah which is very
impressive by the way what was the main
problem you were solving and you know
how's how has that impacted your clients
yeah I mean the huge thing with us it
was it was born out of my own
frustration as running a firm with a lot
of advisors that was costing a heck of a
lot of money to keep the doors open
every single month and all of a sudden
as much as covid was grateful new
business volumes and how busy we
were our pipeline before covid would get
paid every three months for everything
that we did because it would take three
months for a house purchase to go
through yeah for the turn around with Co
all of a sudden okay six 12 months and
it was all all to do with stuff grinding
into a hole which it didn't need to and
then you get the C you people grumbling
about the service side of things and
stuff like that and and you know we
would probably having to recruit employ
two admins just to chase solicitors for
updates and we there's just no need to
do that so we thought
well we wanted to the whole point was
the reason it's called fix my legals is
uh purely because we wanted to take the
FML out of commanding
so uh a little inside joke there
although it took our um our
share P Paul might not like me sharing
this but it took him two years to put
two and two together that's why we
called it
FML anyway so so yeah we did that and
and I'd say the big thing is is is this
automation of of of updates and very
often it's the conveyancer carries your
own conveyancer who you're paying
carries a lot of the Flack for stuff
that's outside of their sphere of
influence so what we realize is that if
you just send out an update to all
parties that need to know we're waiting
on X documents from X person guess what
the estate agent probably Rings up and
kicks them up the ass and and and gets
it done and it's actually just that
almost shining a little bit of a
spotlight on where something's stuck and
who might be taking a couple of weeks to
get their paperwork back and setting
some expectations on what we expect to
service is from the
conveyance all of a sudden that's just
that's just un unblock things we know
it's possible to to to get to exchange
of contracts quickly because we know
that if someone's doing a new build new
builds Target a four or six week
exchange of contracts so why is it any
different to buying any other house yeah
you need searches but most of the time
searches are about within a week so
there's no excuse for what can be done
in four to six weeks it shouldn't be Tak
taking six
months defin so do do you think
mortgages and conen and processes will
ever be fully digitalized or do you
always from that human
expertise yeah I would love them to be I
I I think we we're seeing uh and
increasing maybe AI coming into the
mortgage side of things because AI is
really good at making a risk-based
decision because that's ex that's that's
exactly what an underwriter is doing
really they're making a risk-based
decision and to be honest ai ai might be
better at doing it a lot faster as well
yeah and and doing it doing it quicker
doing it quicker I think the issue with
conveyancing is also I think
conveyancing could move a lot quicker
especially if they actually embrace
because a lot of it's just about sharing
information to a point where everyone's
happy with it well what's the big
technological innovation of the last 20
years that would make that a piece of
cake blockchain stuff like that everyone
can see it everyone's got a paper trail
it's instant instant instant fantastic
the issue that I think we will have is
if we think the financial services
industry is stuck in the mud and
oldfashioned we're dealing with
conveyancing which is the legal
profession and I don't think the Law
Society is going to be in a massive
hurry to innovate and make life easier
you look at every and I I I'm maybe a
bit more aware of this now than I used
to be you look at any change that the
Law Society brings in in the last five
years it hasn't made anything more
straightforward it's always more
paperwork and more complexity and it's
going in the wrong
direction I I think it will take
something Central from a government who
comes in and says hey we want to make
buying a h buying and selling a house
easier and drive that centrally and then
I but problem is I believe it when I see
it I don't think there's the political
will as much as
the general public would say you know
You' said we're gonna make buying and
selling a house easier are you happy
they'd say yeah of course we're happy
but stuff gets stuck you look at leas
hold and leas holds are still a thing
even though you're not supposed to
everyone said oh yeah we're going to be
getting rid of it and reforming it and
none of that's ever happened there's
probably too many vested interests
unfortunately nice nice with with um
with the mortgage process right where
where do you see like the biggest
potential for artificial intelligence
linked with the mortgage process like I
said I think it it's
underwriting and I think it's the it's
the like we said underwriting whether
you're going to give out a mortgage to a
customer as a lender especially if
you're doing it on scale and you're a
High Street lender it's all about
risk-based
decisions and I think you're still going
to need humans to check the validity and
accuracy of the information that's being
put in the front end
although an awful lot you could be
clever at using Tech open banking things
like that what why do you need pay slips
to verify an income if you can scrape it
coming into a bank account from and and
a clearly a real bank account not a
madeup bank account with you know doing
doing all that sort of thing so I think
maybe that could be done a bit quicker
but getting that information and making
a decision on How likely you think this
person is to keep paying their mortgage
on time and if they're not going to pay
it on time is the bank's interest
protect
if they had to repossess the
property I think that's a prime thing
for Tech to to do and do quicker and
more objectively sometimes I think as
well because
sometimes sometimes an underwriter can
have an opinion on something and
sometime it can be perfectly valid
opinion and then I think maybe you will
still need a human for that stuff that
doesn't neatly fit a box either but I
think that's the big opportunity as far
as I see is is quicker underwriting
decisions and same in the protection
protection world as well where I think
we need to have a bit of a look at how
that's how that runs as well
pre-existing medical conditions can seem
a bit faral sometimes where you get
decisions that make no sense at
all especially B topic close to my heart
is around getting cover for people with
ADHD well I've got ADHD I got diagnosed
because I wanted to be able to
concentrate a bit better at work don't
take anything never any time off sick
for it but then actually getting cover
is more complicated and I don't think it
should be you know 10% of people have a
brain that's wired like mine I made that
figure up it's probably something
completely different but but what why
why does why why should an acty or an
underwriter there's no there's no data
to say that that does make a difference
so why are we assuming that it
does so yeah I think I think it quicker
outcomes and more accurate outcomes
customers is probably the way uh the way
that the tech side of things will take
us I hope yeah definitely so in in
regards to the current landscape of
Technology do you still you think is
still falling short or creating fiction
rather than solving problems with the
current way the current technology
landscape
is I think it's it's solving problems it
is solving problems I I think that the
the the problem that it then goes on to
create so is making processes easier the
problem it then goes on to create is how
disjointed an awful lot of it is
so I think it's a bit like this is
probably the analogy that I'd use I like
I like watching sports and stuff like
that and I would much prefer it if
everything was just on Sky Sports and
they had to pay for the one subscription
I got everything and like even with
Netflix or something like that remember
it was just Netflix if you wanted to
watch everything but now it's Disney
plus Disney Prime it's it's this it's
that and all these things are absolutely
great but why do I need to have five of
the bloody things and five subscriptions
and the problem that you've got is is is
we almost this is why I said on the
convening side of things we almost need
need something to come separately
because there's probably about 10
different Tech solutions to make things
better but unless everyone uses the same
thing or the same platforms that can
talk to each other it's it's a bit
counterproductive sometimes so I think
we could we could almost do with some
joined upness of of systems so systems
that that that that talk to each other
I've invented a word
there but you know it was it was always
music to my ears as an advisor if I had
a case where I was going to put an
application through one of the lenders
who used MSO as a platform so Accord TSB
a few of the other guys they have the
same system it's white labeled it's just
got a different a different uh
background on it Fant ftic it's it's
easy because I know what I'm doing it
does the job but then the issue you have
is sometimes lenders have a sense of
Pride and they don't want an
off-the-shelf version they want their
own version because they want to be able
to say they've had their own version it
doesn't matter that it's a Crocker
rubbish they they they they just want to
say they got their own thing so spend
exponentially more money on developing
something that's not as good sometimes
so I think the the big challenge is
getting Tech Systems to talk to each
other because sometimes you can create
more work it's like having to download
oh no another app it's yeah people don't
like it
yeah so what what's been the biggest
challenge in adopting new technology at
Peak mortgages and protection I would
say cost sometimes
because people tend to want an arm and a
leg before you know whether there's
actually any benefit in there but then
it's it cost of money but it's cost of
time as well sometimes to onboard onto a
new system and try something and you've
always got it doesn't matter whether
something's absolutely fantastic or not
you're always going to have this change
curve that people are gonna navigate so
it's getting them through the resistance
the you know to the point where they
accept it they embrace it and they're
doing better and and I think you've got
to navigate change curve with stuff
you've also got to navigate a change
curve with customers and it's customers
who are paying your bills you might not
want to
throw the baby out with the bath water
because you might not have a business by
the time everyone's actually embraced it
and this is like what I was saying
around video calling the whole world all
of a sudden got forced to use something
which is maybe a bit new and alien to
them I think it's what gives your
clients that impetus to to to to join
you for the journey because I think you
can probably man you know it's
management one1 is getting your staff
along for that Journey but what about
your customers are they on board with it
and it's keep just keeping up with the
pace of change as well is tricky
sometimes because wow things move things
move fast I I've got a an appointment in
this afternoon and the guy sent me a a
LinkedIn proposal about doing his life
insurance I'd never seen a LinkedIn I i'
like to think I know a bit about
LinkedIn use it all the time but this
was new to me I thought it was really
really cool but I'm like I don't have
the time to learn about how to do
something else new um but I'm now eting
for just a normal appointment this
afternoon which is what which is how I
would prefer to
work but yeah you know it's it's it's
it's that whole change journey is not
always smooth amazing yeah you pretty
much I was going to ask a follow-up
question in terms of like if you have
seen resistance from maybe team members
you know if you were looking to
introduce new tools like You' pretty
much answered it um I wanted I was going
to ask as well was that have you seen
any sort of resistance from clients at
all like with tools that you you looking
no bed not really not really resistant
and I think sometimes we we might be a
bit too accommodating of of clients who
might want to do things a certain way
and we might not push them enough to do
things so we can if if we've got a
customer booked in we can create them on
our Revolution portal before their
appointment and send them a fact find
for them to start filling in before the
appointment do we bother doing it not
really we just do it wh we've got the
customer with us but we could we could
save everyone a bit of time if we
actually
pushed the customer a little bit and
said by the way you don't have to but
you can you can do this because actually
find the the takeup of that when we tell
people is a lot of them do actually just
fill it in so you're not spending 20
minutes asking people what the name and
date of birth is so I think that's
that's probably more on us as than than
than it is maybe resistance from the
client because you you you'd be
surprised how accommodating a lot of
people actually are and then it's it's
good for you too as an adviser if
someone has invested that time and
effort to that specific example to fill
in a fat find they're going to turn up
for their appointment because they've
spent 10 minutes filling something in
online so I
think yeah you know that's probably on
us being uh a bit lazy maybe or a bit
not necessarily even lazy feeling like
we're we're imposing on the client by
asking them to do something because
we're so scared about losing the
customer but actually that the customers
do want what what what we're offering
then and we just need to tell
them that's ins I love
that so yeah in in relation to like
sustain sustainability and responsible
lending I think that's as of recent
years becoming a bigger topic our
clients asking more about green
mortgages or ESG considerations have you
seen
[Music]
or not so much so green mortgages were
becoming a bit of a thing before
interest rates shut up and we and we
were getting quite a lot of stuff come
out about that they were getting
progressively better and and the the
cash back amounts that people were
getting for maybe making Green Home
Improvements were becoming appealing in
a really competitive Marketplace they
stood up stood out for the right
reasons but then it felt like interest
rates went up for everyone and all of a
sudden everyone's struggling everyone's
having payment shock and then all of a
sudden no one really cares about it that
much anymore and I don't see that it has
particularly shifted back the other way
there was a load of interesting stuff at
the time as
well around EPC ratings of rental
properties and say you know saying that
by 2025 I think it was come down quick
all rental properties had to be EPC
rating a seal better or or or else there
was going to be tax implications and
things like that and it does seem like
that neet
zero less drafty better insulated homes
thing has fallen by the wayside a little
bit which I mean I'm as much of a lefty
as they come I read the guardian um but
I find that really really disappointing
because I know there's that the the
people who think Net Zero a waste of
money and things like that I I
personally see it as a huge opportunity
because it's you you got some we talk
about UK lack of growth well there's if
we have to insulate every house in the
UK that's a huge job and a huge lot of
growth and all of a sudden you become a
world leader in what is the future just
by doing something which which makes
sense and actually it's good for normal
people like like us on this call if
we've got cheaper energy bills
fantastic it's the same I mean my my my
biggest weakness is not being able to
avoid arguing with people online who who
are big fossil fuel industry apologists
and say oh fossil fuel is expensive I'm
like tell me what's more expensive to to
to to turn on the electric is it wind
power or is it gas where we generate
most that stuff because fossil fuels are
really bloody expensive and you know
this is the future we need to embrace it
we've got on a right of tangent on here
so I I'll rain that one in but I I think
um yeah got back to the original point
which is yeah unfortunately the green
side of things does seem to have fallen
by the wayside a little bit and I think
it's just everyone's firefighting other
areas I'd like to see it come back
because I think it really should and I
think it's a
real it's a really good way of dealing
with the challenges of our time which is
global heating but then also an
immediate challenge which is UK growth
well here we go this is GNA make
everyone's lives better and do what the
current government is all about in
theory so yeah you know I think it it
needs a b bit more
Focus nice nice we I wanted to ask a
question in relations to like talent and
culture so I know that Peak mortgages
has built a very strong team culture
whilst you've expanded digitally of
course um how do you keep that you know
personal Community Driven feel feeling
whilst you know stay in the business
yeah I think I
think what was important to us is we
didn't want to be a mile wide and an
inch deep so as much as we were able to
deal with people everybody everywhere
our advisors were were soured fairly
local so pretty much everyone was based
in in and around
arire and most of the team self-employed
so what what what we wanted was was them
almost to be like like we were here in
bper where you were kind of you were the
the the Google of your Marketplace some
swear Australian told me that uh chop
called Tom Panos who's a Australian real
estate coach I went to a conference this
is where I work for Spicer heart annual
conference in Thailand we went to
Bangkok for three days um I was hung
over at anything but I still remember
become the Google of the marketplace so
anyway um yeah memories so anyway I
think we wanted that to be you know this
the situation where in your community if
someone needs something and they know no
one wants a mortgage but they want to
buy own or sell a house they need to
they need thing that you do and you're
the person that they go to and a lot of
that was around reviews and having that
that that social proof from other people
that you may know that that that that
you do what you that that you do do do
what you do well but then there's also
getting involved in community and stuff
as well
so big Believers in getting behind the
local Arts Trail and and just putting
your name out there and you could tell
from the in that we would get it would
be oh I've seen you
everywhere I need to do my mortgage and
and I think it was just that there's so
many ways to be in someone's face all
the
time you just got to do that because
there's nothing more frustrating if
you're an advisor then you you you go on
Facebook I hate Facebook with a passion
so I don't go very often but you go on
Facebook and you see someone from
schools bought a house they got their
set of house keys and they've not used
you for the LA you like why you come to
me yeah so so there's that side of
things and then I think it's it's really
important to try and keep that team
ethos as well and and keep a close-nit
team so I was always big believer in
having a monthly face tof face team
meeting get everyone in the office
because I think yeah there'll be some
messages that I might want to run
through as the person running the team
but also I think it's that chat whilst
you're waiting for the kettle to boil
it's that that face to face time too but
from a Sales Management point of view as
well regardless of all that I would
always have a weekly catch up with all
my
advisers and I did this even before I
set up Peak i' always have a weekly
catch up and on the face of it yeah it
was to talk about figures and to be a
bit of accountability and there always
was but so many of those conversations
as well were about checking in
especially with a remote working team
where you can get lost in your own head
sometimes checking with them to make
sure that they were okay and there were
conversations that were had over over
the years that had nothing to do with
work but I I would say and I I won't say
what they were because I pres preserve
people's privacy but they were really
important conversations to have that
kept people in a mentally good
place physically good place as well um
and and I think that communication is
really really key because you do have to
work on it a little bit if you're not
not in person with somebody
100% And so I think with remote work and
Digital Services grow to be fair I'm
very happy that you do ensure that human
element and that human interaction is
still into play but do you think down
the L traditional mortgage offices will
eventually disappear with the digital
services and remote working
growing I'd say I don't think they'll
disappear but I think that that the
scale of them will be slightly different
so I I know that we've we used to have
two units next to each other not through
and that was a bit of a a thing of we
thought everyone was going to come back
to the office post covid and it never
quite happened so what we've done is um
we've reduced our office space because
it's very rare that we'd ever have
enough people in to justify and we still
need some face tace space because we do
get people wanting to come in and I
think there's still always going to be
that um there's always going to be that
element of things but I think we are
going to increasingly see more stuff
done
online the other thing we can't lose
sight of is the whole accessibility side
of things so we work with a local uh
sign language
interpreter and I feel that those
appointments work so much better in
person because it is quite difficult to
do on T just with just with how many
screens there are and and how it how it
works I think those need to be done in
person so I think there is always going
to a need I mean that's a real clear
example of what when you definitely need
a face to face side of things there's
still just going to be people who prefer
the face to face Toof face side of
things too as well and and I think we'll
never lose it entirely but I think we'll
get see more and more people get more
comfortable with a digital only
proposition yeah yeah makes sense I
definitely feel the personal touches is
is something major it's not something I
personally um would whatever want to
leave especially when dealing with you
know human interaction but I mean it's
convenience yeah and I think that's the
point is actually it's regardless of how
you do it the process should feel more
or less the same it's still a personal
process it's just some people would
prefer to come in and some people will
want to do it remotely but the point
you've made there around the
convenience it's a lot more convenient
if you're an for a customer but also if
you're an advis and you're doing an
appointment at 8:00 at night it's the
only time your customer can see it and
it's worth your while doing you can have
your dinner you can spend a bit of time
with your family and then duck out to do
that appointment for an hour and then
get back to get back to your evening
yeah and that is
massive and this also in our industry
too I've always said our in industry is
absolutely fantastic place to be if
you're good at the job but you're a a
parent with children
and especially people coming back from
mat leaf and things like that where you
can do this job around looking after
your children and and things like that
and that lends itself very well to
working from home I think and and being
able to still do the job incredibly well
but have the flexibility that you need
to work around your your family and Tech
can really help you uh do that some of
the best advisors we've picked up over
the years are people who come back from
maternity and their old business want in
the office 9 till 6 every single day
with no flexibility well no chance is
that going to happen in in the real
world and we we we' say look come work
for us we you you work around you you
can clearly do this job you that right
have that degree of
flexibility um and yeah I think maybe
we'll see more of that um come to the
for as well over the coming years nice
nice well what's your prediction uh for
the mortgage space within the next five
to 10
years um I think we'll have a steady
year this year um probably be better
than the last two years we're not going
to get the headyy highs of the the covid
years um other than that it's very
difficult to to predict beyond that I
think I think the pace of change
will continue to frustrate us who want
to see change and want to see stuff done
better because I think I'm I'm quite
naturally one of these people that's
like now now now now now and I need my
mad cap scheme is raining in sometimes
when there's real world implications to
okay yeah it doesn't work because of
that reason so I I think that we'll see
change the pace of change will be
frustrating we will probably see a lot
more of
those I think we'll get see AI get
better at making decisions around r
about making risk-based decisions on
whether to lend to someone or not we'll
still need people to feed the right
information in and give the advice and
we'll always need someone we still
always need a human being because there
needs to be someone to Sue when it goes
wrong um so until someone can come up
with a solution of if I spoke to a AI
advisor and they gave me the wrong
advice who do I sue until then you ain't
got anything to worry about if they work
that out you might be a bit stuffed but
um I I think yeah I think that that that
risk-based decision making we're going
to see a bit more of that and I'd like
to see as well a lot more around Auto
verification of stuff so we all love it
when there's an auto verification of
income or an electronic valuation
because it just all Stacks up and those
those 40c mortgage offers I think we'll
see more of them I think we'll see more
of them and that seems to be the
direction of travel so Reese but if you
had to make a bet what would you say the
what which emerging trend is AI open
banking digital conveyancing what do you
think have the biggest impact in this
industry if you to make a bit oh I would
say the thing is with open banking is
people don't like sharing their
information so open banking is fantastic
and could do it all but it's getting the
consents that's the that's the challenge
and I don't think that we we we're going
to deal with that
what I would like to see change is I
would like to see local Authority
searches and the conveyancing side of
things be a lot quicker
because what it feels like at the moment
is as much as the process on average
takes three six months whatever it
is so much of that work is just
information gathering and sharing of
information and then someone to sign off
on it at the end and and and point it in
the right dire Direction and I'd like to
think that that information gathering
could be done a a a heck of a lot
quicker and it's it's simple with things
like local Authority searches and what
have
you if that was fully digitized
automated you could get local Authority
searches done within seconds and I'd
like to see I'd like to see that but I
think it's it's making that information
gathering side of things better and then
I think again you could use AI to guide
you on what what points are problematic
and warrant further investigation but
you're still going to need a human being
to sign off on it because who are you
gonna sue if something's missed and goes
wrong and again yeah until we can sue a
computer um or or a tech provider for
that um I don't think things would
will completely change but I yeah I
think that information gathering side of
things could be a lot a lot quicker
because there's so much information out
there that's that's available instantly
just need to untap the fact that yeah
okay this information is all there go
got yeah yeah amazing and so for
mortgage advisers who are you know
hesitant about adopting Tech what would
be your biggest piece of advice to them
yeah like I said I think it's it's work
out what your time consuming but simple
this big my side point what are you
timec consuming but relatively simple
jobs to
do because I think like I said there
will probably be an off-the-shelf tool
that does all that for you it could be
keeping on top of your remortgage end
dates it could be an update portal it it
could be like we said even calendar Le
if you if you don't have an automated
booking Link at the moment you're
wasting a load of time if you I might
only be like 5 10 minutes a pot but if
you're wasting 5 10 minutes for every
single customer you talk to over the
years about booking an
appointment tot up that time your1 pound
a month to pay for a calendly
subscription is definitely well worth
the uh the well worth the time and the
amount of appointments you pick up as
well when you might have lost it but
someone's wanted to book an appointment
in and and they're about at three in the
morning so that's when they've gone on
and booked it you it's going to pay for
itself multiple times over so yeah I
would say it's it's work out those time
consuming relatively simple things and
sort that out first before getting too
carried away with anything else any more
complicated than that really nice that's
that's that's beautiful Inta and what
would you say is uh one thing you knew
what's one thing you wish sorry you knew
about uh digital transformation when you
started
Peak there we go I I I kind of wish I'd
been a bit more embrac of change I'm
really
oldfashioned um so I I'm I am
oldfashioned I I did a post I don't know
I don't I did tag you in this actually
about my uh still I still use paper
cover sheets for my my clients because I
actually like having something physical
to remind me to do something and and you
get all these people say oh yeah use do
this digital task setting thing I still
like a physical thing to remind me to do
stuff sometimes and it doesn't get
doesn't get
but actually I I should listen more and
embrace change and embrace Tech a bit
more because what I was moaning that I
had some paperwork to do but I had to
come to the office to print something
and it was all to do with filling in a
paper fat
find and I didn't realize that I could
actually just get one of those
remarkable P pads I could put a PDF in
of my fat find on there and then I've
got a digital version every single time
and I don't need to Mook around with
making the scanner work that day and all
this so
actually there's some really good kit
out there and it it took me hearing from
other advisers who are using it and said
Reese it's really simple stop being an
idiot I wish I'd listen to people a
little bit more and and embrace
change a bit more openly amazing amazing
AR re this has been an amazing
conversation so if listeners want to
connect with you learn more about Peak
morgage and protection where should they
go I mean I hate all things mattera
so I'm trying desperately to make Tik
Tok work but to be honest not not really
my thing I think I'm too old for that
now um but linkedin's where I'm at so
yeah just yeah there's not too many re
SC Fields uh so yeah just look for the
one with the uh with the beard on
LinkedIn and that's where I'm most
active