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The purpose of the show is to provide a critical examination of society and culture through the intersectional lens of race, gender, and class, more specifically it seeks to provide a COUNTER-NARRATIVE. The Show encourages a reflective assessment and critique of unique standpoints and their potential contribution to popular discourse.
Rasheem and
I was just jamming. As you can see, you know, I jam a little bit listening to my Janelle Monet. Anyway. This is Rasheem, the host of the counter narrative, and tonight's segment is on black women in corporate America. I am joined by my very good friends, one of them being Kiana Rodriguez, who's going to come on a little in a little bit. She is the CEO and founder of happy work week, and I'm also going to be joined by another good friend of mine, Shelby lane, in the building. So we're going to be having a lot of conversations around, of course, black women in corporate America. And some of those things that we're going to hit on are going to be around an article that I found in Fortune magazine based on a report that they generated, and we're really going to be talking about some of their findings. How does that show up in other people's experience? I want to hear from people in the audience, if you're not here live, I definitely want to hear from you in the replay. And I am going to start bringing people on and let them share a little bit more. But before I do that, let me give you a little background for framing the context of this conversation of black women in corporate America. So there was a report by the Center for talent innovation, and that is a nonprofit, and it promotes diversity, and it examines issues of black women in corporate America. So what they did is they took a number of interviews, they also did a number of questionnaires, and they released a report of their findings telling about some of the challenges that black women have in corporate America. So I'm just going to bullet point right now those challenges, and we're going to take a deeper dive and talk about those and see if some of those come up for you, different ways of navigating that space. When you have ebony skin and you're in, you know, in white spaces, what does that look like? What does that mean? So one of the things that the report found was that black women's contributions go unrecognized. We're going to talk about that for a bit. We're also going to talk about one of the challenges that they said is that black women lack sponsorship. We're gonna talk about what that means, what that looks like. How do you get sponsorship within corporate America as a black woman? We're also gonna talk about the fact that one of the things that their report reported, their report reported, was that black women are more likely to kind of put their heads down. Yeah. So we're going to discuss all of these things. Black women are more likely than their white female peers to aspire to be a leader. So if they're more likely to aspire to be a leader, we're going to talk about some of the reasons that this report says, and some of the reasons that we've experienced of why that may not be happening, and even though we're talking about black women in corporate America, we're also going to acknowledge the fact that black women are not a monolithic group. We do have other things that make up our identity, whether it's class, gender, education, regional, location, religion, all of these different things contribute to our identity. So we're going to talk about some overarching themes as well as we're going to talk about those other aspects of our identity that may not, that may not line up. There's going to be I'm going to talk about it. Kiana Rodriguez is going to talk about it. Shelby lane is going to share her experiences. And Stephanie, I hope I can get her on as well to share some of her experiences about being a black woman in corporate America and what that looks like. So let me see some of the other things on the article. Also, I'm going to go ahead and share the article in the chat. So if you are in here in the chat, I'm going to share the link so that you can see what article I'm looking at. It also has a link within the article to the report. If you're watching this later on YouTube, don't worry. What I'll do is I'll make sure that I copy paste the link to this particular article that we'll be discussing. Excuse me, I will post it under the actual video that of what we're talking about. So Joel, Joel, is that I say Joel, right? Did I say that right? Is it Joel or Joel? Hi, Joel, I'm gonna say that until you tell me how to pronounce it differently. Hey, Stephanie, thank you so much for being here. Shelby. I so appreciate you being here. Thank you so much. Kiana Rodriguez, who is again the founder and CEO of happy work week. She is a coach that helps people to have a happy work week. And it's she's so it's so relevant to this topic of being a black woman in corporate America. We recently. Did an episode on Diary of a happy black woman. And we know, hey, we know what that narrative tends to be about black women, you know. So we had that conversation, and it was really, really fun. Lots of fun. So, Kiana, Hey girl, what's going on,
oh, wait, oh, we gotta do it. We gotta do it. We gotta
Yes.
So you want to say hello to everybody? Kiana,
welcome everyone. Hello, hello. Good evening. I hope you guys had a wonderful Saturday. Alright, and it has been amazing day, so I hope, I'm just hoping that you had an amazing day also. So welcome, welcome. I'm so glad you guys are here.
Awesome, fantastic. So I'm trying to get Shelby to come on. And
again, I log out of my Facebook like, often. Like, I don't even go like, if you send me a message through messenger, I'm there, right? And so I can speak to you that way, so I completely missed your Birthday. Happy
Birthday, you know, I do the Beyonce. You Oh, a little bit of that, and a little bit of the black girl snake. So, um, Steph, let me know if you end up wanting to come on court place. Also, let me know if you end up wanting to come on. So how we're just going to do this is those things that I highlighted at the beginning, I am just going to me and Kiana are just going to go back and forth on them. Oh, and I need to share the link with you guys in the chat so you can know which article we're looking at. So again, the information that we're looking at is coming from a report that was created by the Center for talent innovation. It's a nonprofit that promotes diversity and examines issues facing black women in corporate America. And we're just going to go one by one, and kind of look at some of these, some of the issues. So let me say one of the first ones that came up on this thing for me was one of the issues of black women's contributions going unrecognized in corporate America, and it said, The report notes that 26% of black women feel their talents aren't recognized by the superiors, compared to 17% of white women. One of the things that also came up in that is like a person shared their experience where they're in a meeting, person they they'll say the idea, like, we should do a. And then people just keep on talking like they hear nothing. And then somebody else says we should do
a.
And then after that, they're like, Oh, that's a great idea. And it's like, wait a minute, I just that's one of the things that came up. So if you are Kiana, tell me your experience with that, Shelby, tell me what you're not in your head real early. So tell me, please, please. Well, I've worked in
healthcare for many years, and as everybody knows, healthcare has become more corporate every day. And not only does that stem from like just being a black woman, but even just being a black woman with and being young, younger than the rest of the people in the room. So I've been in meetings with pharmacists and other people who have all these alphabet soup behind their names. And here I am sitting there, new to the table, and I've brought up an idea. One of the ideas was, you know, we're not getting authorized for prescriptions, and you know, well, let's form a formulator group together so that we can have people who are experts in their field. And that's all they do is make sure authorization goes through for the physicians that we serve, right? And everyone's just like, well,
I don't know who we get to get on that group. And
then blonde hair, blue eye, young pharmacist comes along and says the same exact thing in the next meeting to talk about the issue. And next thing you know, you know, we're formulating a plan to make it happen, and not knowing how to make that happen, she blew it. And then here I had to go in. And now the assignment is up for me to clean up the mess. And so I think I viewed my part in. In corporate America as the cleanup girl. I can't get credit for the idea. I can't get credit for the plan, but once someone else has messed it up, then now I'm under the pressure and under the gun to clean it up and make it right. Though there's no consequences for the person that's made the error, but if I don't clean it up in a certain amount of time or make it right, then there's consequences for me. So that that's what I felt, that's that's my experience. I've always been the cleanup girl. Always been the one that had the idea, but nobody listened to but once that person screwed it up, then I was allowed the option of fixing it and making it right.
Well, thank you for sharing that. Kiana, have you had any experience with that? Or what do you think about that that point?
I think that honestly, especially after reading this article, I think it's industry based, and the reason why I'm saying that is because I was in the military, and after I still work for the military, even though I was a contractor. And then after that, I worked in education and so and even even after that, even when I came here to Charlotte, it was the banking industry, okay. And so my experience is not necessarily just black women, it's just women in general, more on the military side, if you understand how the structure is, I think that the military, you know, they they do their best into recognizing soldiers. But I think that what I've noticed between the banking and what I've done in the military is if you have the skills, and it's more on the technical side, I don't care if you you have male or female, we need you. And they will recognize that, and they will tap into those, those those skill sets, and they will listen to what you had to say. I was the only one that did my job in that whole office. And so I when, in my experience, they had to rely on my skill set and my talent, and it was more technical, so they had to listen because there was no one else there to do do that job. So
I'm sorry. Oh, sorry, go ahead.
Oh, no. I just personally think that it is industry based in Charlotte the healthcare industry is why, and it is, it is so corporate, and I hear so many complaints. I hear like, nurses and and, I mean, it's just chaotic. And even when it come, oh, I just hear so many things when it comes to the healthcare industry. So I honestly think that, in my opinion, that it is industry based when it comes to recognition. Because there's there, there's always politics involved that even in the military, I spoke about that the politics involved where people were receiving like, I trained somebody. I talked about this on on the periscope, I trained someone, and they received medals and honors instead of I, instead of me, you know. So I'm like, Look, how do you think they learned how to do all that, that that came from me, and so, um, but then I had to realize, you know, that it's really not about that, but that's something separate, but, but she was a black woman. She was a black woman. She got recognized off of something that I trained her how to do.
So I want to say more about why were you the only one? So that was a situation where they had to rely on you or rely on what you said, because they weren't doing their job. But why were you the only person in office doing your job?
Okay, so I was actually the only when I was in the military, and I was the only one on base that did this job. I passed the I passed security clearances for the entire base. And so they they had to come there in order to get their top secret clearance, in order to go through the whole process to get read into the program that right? And I everyone that had a clearance on the base. I made sure that the, you know, they went, you know, they had all the paperwork. They did their, their what it was, it was 86 something. I can't even remember. But that was my job, and so I really didn't like they relied on me to do it. When I got out of the military, I worked as a contractor, and I did information assurance, and so I made sure that that all the engineers that I work with were in compliance with DoD regulations, dia regulations, and that they didn't step over any boundaries. And so everyone else I work with, so many people that were doing technical jobs, but that was my responsibility. Oh, okay, so you weren't saying that no one else was doing their job. You're just saying for your role, you were the only one who had that role, right? Okay, all right. Steph, what has been your experience with that, with that point in the article where it says black woman experiences going unrecognized. I mean their contributions going unrecognized.
Um, okay, so just to give a little background about me, um, so I can frame my opinion, I worked in corporate finance, and I've worked for some major corporations. I worked in the headquarters of Frito, lay PepsiCo. I worked at JCPenney headquarters, Dr Pepper. I worked for Nordstrom in their buying office. I work for Shell work for some other oil and gas companies. So I've kind of been in a couple of different, quite a few different types of industries, lot of retail, and then most recently, I've been in insurance and financial products. So and I work for the largest insurer in the world, AIG at one point. So I've seen different corporations of different sizes, different industries, different dynamics. So one thing that I do, just for one thing is that I do participate in the diversity and inclusion groups within the company, specifically around women's groups, black professionals, and then also women in technology and some of these. And also, most recently, because I work in IT security, I'm also a member of the executive Women's Forum, which is specific, a specific group for women in security professions. And so at the last conference that we went to, this was actually one of the topics about women not feeling heard, just in general, with when you're in a particularly in a male dominated field like it, security, generally, I am the only woman in the room. And then layering on top of that, I'm the black woman. So there's times where I've walked in the room, or someone, people have come in and they're like, I can tell that they're a little caught off guard, that I'm black, you know, because they're meeting me for the first time. But what I find is that, oh and then to say to Kiana, kind of situation, I'm usually the only person doing my job. So that's how I'm able to be strategic about how I move in corporate America, because I carve that niche for myself, so they have to depend on me. However, it's never good to be in a situation where you're a single point of failure. So that's kind of the converse to that, because then you can get pigeonholed in your job so but talking about not being heard in a room, I generally don't experience that a whole lot. Number one people get onto me because I'm soft spoken, like in person, my voice doesn't carry. I have to make an effort to project my voice, but I do see that in a lot of male dominated areas. I've seen the dynamic of the woman, who's the pit bull, who's known for getting the job done, and there's three other men in the room, and they are all talking, and, you know, they're all familial, and they hang out after work, and she has really good ideas. However, they're not listening. Number one, men tend to tune out women due to the timbre of your voice, due to the frequency and the pitch. That's just scientific. So you have to be I feel like and then being black. I don't like my friends, and I always joke about, you know, being the black woman and getting passed over and not getting the recognition. A lot of my friends deal with that. However, to combat that, I carve that niche for myself. That's how I do it, to where they're dependent upon me. So I don't experience it as much as some other people who, let's say you're a financial analyst, you may be really good, but there's other three more financial analysts on staff. There's more competition. If I'm black and I'm it, then I'm it, you have to listen to me. So that's kind of how I maneuver in that space. But I do recognize the fact. Fact that women are, you know, looked at us, especially when you're aggressive, you know, it's like, either they don't want to be bothered with you, they talk over you, because there's a boys club, you know, and when you get to a certain pay grade, you got to pierce that boys club in order to play so and get those leadership roles and so. And I think that kind of goes into the sponsorship thing that you mentioned a little bit, quote, unquote, but um, so that's just my experience, so I hope that helps. Thank
you. So Kiana, I'm let you, you want to summarize that black women lack sponsors.
That's what, that's what I'm saying. Like, I truly feel that is industry based, and I know I'm gonna continue on that. I really want to bring up the fact that the whole movement of women, period, it wasn't just back in the day that women, like black women couldn't vote like women couldn't vote like no woman. And so when I hear about and now I'm not this, I'm not turning or turning pushing away the fact that black women don't have issues in corporate America. That's not what I'm saying. But I'm talking about the suffrage of women to be able to be in the positions that we are in now has been a woman's issue and so, and that's just the way I look at it. It has been And now, when it comes to like, what Seth Steph was saying for black women to really be able, and I think this is women, period, being able to position yourself in a way that they need you no matter what. And this when you bring in either technical experience, they will they will sponsor like you will get no like. And when you bring in some money for the company, that is when you, when we talking about dollars, and we're talking about technical skills, which equals dollars, or, you know, I think that it's, It's that you, they will, really,
they respond.
Notice I really, I really do I like, I haven't had specifically an issue in corporate America when it came to like, not being heard, not being like, recognized by high, high, I mean, high level executives.
I have a good story, though. Oh, okay. It just popped into my head, and it kind of got under my skin. But it really wasn't a it was kind of like a boys club thing, but in a politics sort of thing. I don't think it was necessarily because I was black. So I do something very specific. I measure security. I quantify that stuff for the for the companies that I work for, which translates into the dollars and cents and things like that, which is one of the hardest things to do, how to actually quantify risk. So, so then there's other things about risk, like reputational damage and things like that. Let's say, if you get hacked, you know, trying to figure out how to repair your image, and that all that stuff translates into, you know, dollars spent for the company. So I'm doing this job for AIG, which is a big company, I'm doing really well. And so my manager says, hey, you know, this is really awesome, and he's very supportive and very transparent. So he's like, I feel like, like, next year we're going to expand this program, this metrics program, that you're doing, our key risk indicator program, and we're going to have two roles so you can move up and you can your role can be backfield, and I want you to write the job description for the purse, for the role that you want, and the job description for the backfill role, which was to be my current role. So I did and and the skills were exactly my skill set. So there's a particular piece of software that I use to data visualization. We have 10 licenses in the company. Well, in my group, and I'm the only person using it, so just keep that in mind. Now, here comes a reorg. So that's the famous corporate, the reorg. Okay, so I've written this job description for myself. However, the job was given to somebody from another department who had not done this job before, nor did not know the software that was specifically listed in the job description, and it was a white man. And when I I'm actually friends with him on LinkedIn, and when I log into LinkedIn, it says, oh, congratulate Chris on his new role as blah, blah, blah. That's the irony of this. Situation,
but that is ironic, but it was
really annoying, because it was like, because you have in the back of your mind, as a black person, you're like, is it because I'm black? Or is it a politics thing, like you're always wondering, or is it because I'm a woman, or they don't think I could leave, or they were bullshitting me, because, you know, you know. Or is this, like, is this some type of game I got caught up in? Like, you'd never know sometimes the and I did find out eventually, kind of what happened, but that just to say, Yeah, well, yeah, I wrote the job description for the role that I was going to move into. I'm answering touches question. She said, Stephanie, did you create the position? Technically, yes, I did create the role and job description, function, skills, requirements and all that kind of stuff. So yes, I and did I say I wanted it? Yes, it was specifically asked for me to write it for me that was in the discussion with my manager and I applied for it once it was posted. So yes, they clearly knew I wanted it.
Yeah, that, yeah, sponsorship. I do feel like that there are, but I feel like I'm hearing are experiences that are single issue means just woman. There are issues that I think there are single issue where it's just black, and there are issues where I think that you can't take off your blackness, or you can't take off your womanness when you are both of them walk in a room with you, and I also know that let's say, like, if we use the example of the suffrage movement, there was a split in the suffrage movement about whether or not to include black women or include black people. They actually had a big split because of that, and also decided not to support the the men's Suffrage Movement. And one of the things about the men's is when the black liberation movement came that gave men, just men, just just black men, the right to vote, so white black women still wasn't able to vote. And then in 1920 when women got to vote, that really, actually did just give what? Just give white women. The only thing that made it possible for us is that we were both black and we were both women, but we weren't, we weren't looked at directly. And I just wanted to, just to say that, just to say that there are things that that are probably single issue things, and then there are things I feel like there are intersectional issues that we can't remove from when we go in there. Um, one of the things that the article talks about is, uh, black women lacking sponsorship. And it's interesting because I actually saw some of this come up when I when I did some research on mentoring relationships. And this kind of speaks to one of the things that Kiana brought up about industry based because for my for the black woman that I interviewed that were in the STEM fields, they they needed and had white males advocating for them who understood the politics like they couldn't get into the old Boys Club. But Brian was in the old boys club, or Jeff was and it was cool with Jeff, and I think for STEM and some for medical fields, I think that there are some industries wherein sponsorships are very, very important and crucial in navigating. Have you guys had any experiences where you've had somebody kind of just advocate for you, for whether it's because you're black or you're a woman, or because they like you or what have you, that like they were just able to get in a place and sit at a table that you weren't able to and knowing you, knowing them, and having that relationship with them.
Oh, definitely did that definitely in my current role, that's definitely how it happened. So the irony, the additional irony of me not getting that job, it's kind of what funneled this current role that I'm in. So our senior vice president who I was there, so there was one layer between me, he and I, so my manager reported to this guy who happened to be named Brian, actually, and Brian, through this reorg resigned, and he's very well liked. And I thought, Oh, when I saw that email come through that he resigned, my heart sank. So I immediately friended him on LinkedIn. By that time, I had been moved to another group, and my manager was horrible. She hated me. It was just terrible. So when he resigned, I thought, okay, if he's getting out of here, I better get my home together, get out of here, because this is bad. And so about maybe a month after he resigned, he emails me, he says, Oh, I'm at this company. And. And I'm going to have this role, and I would like for you to come and work for me and do it over here, out of the blue. So that's kind of how and I and in that process of him getting to understand my work, because there's still one level of management between he and I, I had people advocating for me, people going to him and saying, Oh, she's awesome. She's doing this. Oh, she's doing that. There were people there by my side that I would either consider a mentor or somebody who was completely transparent about the level of work that I was doing that was above and beyond my current pay grade. And so I appreciate him for recognizing that. And when I started to realize that I had pierced the boys club. Was that his you know how people have their lieutenants? So like these VPs and stuff, they have their lieutenants that come back and bring information back to them. One of his lieutenants would actually bring me information and tell me about what was going on in the in the in the court, in the department. So I'm like, Okay, well, I must be in the in crowd now, because they trust me with info, so I can't screw this up. So so anyway, that's how I got to my current role, which is a lot more it's less stressful than that job would have been anyway, and I'm not involved in a reorg, and my commute is shorter, so things worked out, but he did really advocate for me. He wrote a very long recommendation. And HR, the HR department called me the next day, and the immediate question was, how much do you want to get paid? Which is, like, what is your salary requirement? Because I don't want to even talk to you like, I don't like, he said he they were like, he wrote a very strong recommendation, what's your what is the salary that you're looking for? If we can meet that, we can have some conversations. Okay? I was like, Okay, this is, this is, this is what I'm talking about, because after a certain point you just want to talk about salary first. Like, what is this paying? Because I don't have time. No,
that's good. I love that. Anyway, sponsorship. Nodded your head too. And then I want to hear from you, Shelby, as well. Have you had an experience with somebody advocating for you, or somebody got you indoors that you weren't maybe not have been able to get? Um,
I'm just, I'm just shaking my head, like I understand, like, the scenario not necessarily getting in. It's like, where I was, you had to have a clearance, okay, so once you had your clearance, you were pretty much in and but I have, like, the supervisor that I had during the time, he definitely advocated for me, I mean, to the point where in six months, I was able to get a raise, $15,000 raise at that and just, and that was the time I didn't even have a degree, you know. So that was very huge for me. But when, when you're talking about getting in. He advocated for me, put me in, um, I don't know if you have ever heard of who's who's, I don't even know who, who's who's, yeah, he, he sent me to who's who's, and I was part of who's who's during that time, and I'm like, Well, you know, wow. I was just very um, humbled for that he saw, saw me as a professional, as individual that got things done. So that was major for
me. I love that. Shelby, oh, I can't hear you. Shelby, I
No, if you just said, can you hear me now? I can't.
I can read lipstick. Your thumb. Real good, though. I'll tell you two things that I just got, or actually three things that I just got so far from you guys, that I feel like are so valuable to share with other black women in corporate America. One of the things I got from you Stephanie is about participation in diversity groups, how that could be supportive, whether it's a woman's group or a group based on race or based on culture, like how that could be supportive. And I think that there was a really good point too, that you brought up Kiana in terms of how it can be different based on the industry, because it probably, I'm imagining, I have no idea, but I'm imagining that it's probably not the same in some industries. Let's say I don't know. I mean, education wouldn't be corporate America, but just if we're just talking about jobs in general, I just don't know if women are treated the same in as teachers, as they are in terms of working in the state. M fields, or engineers or business or what have you. So I really appreciate that. What? What are the things that the study says that I was just like? I don't know if this is all the way true, and I don't know if it's this generation that does that, but when it says that black women are likely to put their heads down. Um, the full thing says black women are likely to put their heads down and make no noise, believing that hard work alone will pay off, that can exacerbate black women's lack of sponsorship and support. In fact, only about 5% of managerial and professional positions are held by African American women, but I'm not sure. Like, like, again, like Tashi said, what black woman? What do you think about that? Do you feel like, in in and I'm thinking that this is, I could see this based on age, in terms of putting your head down, but I don't see it that tough with the millennials. What has been y'all experience? Kiana? Like,
I mean, I can talk to that a little bit. I mean, okay, so there's, there's a, there's a dynamic there. So it's not, it's not that straightforward. Because, okay, you don't, you don't you, you. It's a hard line to tell. Because, number one, you don't want to be the Coon and you don't want to be the person that got your job because you You kissed ass, like, like. You want to be able to prove your worth. But at the same time, being able to network and make those connections is not just intrinsic to people. That's a skill, and it's, it's a soft skill that a lot of people don't know. I can go and do spreadsheets, I can write programs. I can, you know, write some queries. I can do all that, but making those connections and getting those mentoring relationships and the networking and, you know, knowing when who to hang out with and talk at the water cooler with and all those things is not that easy. And I think as black people, we're always taught, okay, go in, don't create drama, don't gossip, do your work. Do twice as much as the other people when blue, blue eyed, blonde hair, boys doing 50% less. But he knows how to talk to people in certain situations because he's comfortable with his peers. Those are not our Those are not my peers. Peers, okay? And that's just kind of the way I see it. And I've had to learn how to do it, because I'm naturally introverted anyway, and so coming into situations where now I'm leading a program, it's a lot of meetings and talking and not a lot of doing. It's farming out things due to people, for people to do, not necessarily the doing. It's being able to convince people to buy into whatever it is that you're selling and getting money to it, for people to sponsor this program that you're doing because, oh, this is these are the benefits of it, convincing people that you know, whatever it is that you're selling is the right thing. So if you So, that's the skill, figuring out how to talk and network and not just doing the work. It's a balance.
Okay, I'm gonna go over to the chat real quick. Then I want to hear from you. Kiana on what's your take on that? Um, dude. Joel said, put their heads down. That's a symbolic statement. Work class said. Rasheem True, true on the heads down, approach, uh. Tachi said, here's the thing, we tend to be overly humble. I do see some overly humble, but I feel like I see it more with the older generation. Shelby says we are humble because we don't want to be too aggressive. Plus says don't want to mix with the BS. Bucha says white men and white women will toot their own horns in a minute. We are taught that Humility is a virtue we should always practice sometime to our own detriment. Joel, then I said, But wait, not all women of color are aggressive. I think that's a stereotype based upon what is thought of women of color. You know, one of the things with what just what Joel just said, and I think I feel like we touched upon a little bit Kiana when we were doing Diary of a happy black woman. It's sometimes maybe because we don't want to be perceived as aggressive, right? No, and I remember seeing a study, and this was, this wasn't based on race at all. This was just gender, where it gave these two sets of people, men and women, a particular character, and they describe the character as ambitious. And for the male, ambitious ranked really high with males and females. And for for others, the woman being ambitious. Just was, we're seeing it as a negative thing. So I wonder how much of that might play into people kind of putting their head down to like, I don't want to make no waves. I don't want to be the angry black woman. I don't want to push too hard. Sort of also a quick room shout out. Hey, Doug. Kiana, uh, Quirk place also, Steph, Shelby, Tachi, Joe, uh, would you do small, I think, and Pat. Thank you so all. So much for being here. Kiana. What's your take on that? On the Put your heads down thing? That's what
I said when I read like, you know how when I read this article, just like, Ah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't see it too much nowadays millennials, they operate differently. And I agree with you and Steph. I think Steph made really, a really great point that it is like, it's a thin line. There's some so there's so many. It's politics when it comes to corporate and I think the politics is in every office is different. And I think that some, some places you have that freedom, like I like I said, I have not personally experienced a situation where I didn't, I wasn't able to be myself. Even when I was working in the bank. I had a supervisor where I would question, I would question him. And then he sat me down. Was like, Why do you question me? Everything that I do, you question you, question you, question why? Why? I was like, Look, I'm trying to understand your process, your thinking, and we're here to make this better. Okay, so I, I'm coming to you, asking you the questions so I can understand and then look at areas where we can really improve. And once I sat down and had that conversation with him, I wasn't afraid to have that conversation. He's like, okay, I get you. I got you. So I it's still being aggressive but respectful, not being afraid of those stereotypes and just being myself, and I've seen plenty of black women that were able to do the same thing, especially in the banking industry, absolutely,
one of the things that you said to Kiana, I really do wish now that I'm thinking about even more that they would have broken this up, because they do talk about how, you know, women are not a monolithic group, but I do wish they it probably would have been more impactful, more thoughtful, more critical, really, if they would have broke it down by industry. I do believe that stuff you were about to say something before I move to the next thing
I just want. That made me think of an experience I had with an employee. I was managing seven people, mostly women, in my last role as a project manager, and they were all different, all different backgrounds. And one particular person, she was seen as aggressive, even characterizes ghetto, because she would question a lot, and she would she would drive the point, not and and so what I saw was critical thinking skills and someone who needed a mentor. And so I approached her that way, and I got a fabulous response and saying, I feel like you're really smart. I can see your the wheels turning when we have a meeting. I can see it, you know. And then you're questioning and so some people are so caught up in the title of being a manager, and then someone questioning them as an assault on their position, instead of thinking, okay, she's come bringing in diversity of thought, because her experiences are different from mine. And so not only had I found when I really talked to her one on one, I found out she had won awards because she had exposed some some things in internal audit processes that were incorrect because she kept asking. And so I, you know, I I've and that was one of the reasons why I regret leave. I mean, I don't regret leaving that role, but I feel bad leaving her behind. And I was like, you know, if you need to talk, find me on LinkedIn. Here's my number. I can coach you, you know, because I'm like, you're way smarter than don't let them put you in a box. And so that's the thing about towing the line, is that they quickly will put you in a box if you don't meet that standard. So you have to kind of figure out how to get what you want without them casting you aside as somebody that's too difficult to work with. Does that make sense? That's
the. Me. I love what you said. You about to say something Kiana, oh no. I just agree with her absolutely, yeah, and I love what you said about that mentorship piece. And one of the things that that is very true in academia, and it's probably true everywhere, is that language is currency, and I can express something, and I've seen other women express something, and because they like the words that I choose to express it with, or the way that I articulate my point, they'll receive it from me, but won't receive it from her. And not only will they not receive it from her, they'll make their ghettoize her point, or say that because she's saying it passionately, that it's an invalid point. So, and that's something that that is not in books necessarily. That's something that would come with mentorship like and especially when it comes to things like politics or diplomacy, rhetoric and and language is currency, and I don't think that we always get that too, like people will shut you down and not listen to you because you are not using language that they know, that they like, or you're not expressing it in terms that they you know what I mean, that they use. So you're ghetto, or you're stupid. You know what I mean. So, and you don't get that from the work handbook. You only get that from when you have a sister in office and go pull your side. Listen, I know that what they saying is bullshit. We here, right? I see you, sister, yeah. So that's so that's good. Um, so here's another thing that I found interesting. I haven't had this in my experience, but this is something that the article points out, or that the report pointed out, black women are more likely than their white female counterparts to aspire to be a leader. The report, this particular report, says that it knows that black women are 2.8 times as likely as white women to to aspire to a powerful position with a prestigious title. 40% of black women have clear long term goals, compared to 32% of white women. I don't know like I don't What do y'all? Has anybody had any experience with that, towards that or against that?
I can see it. I can see how it happens. I can't say that. That's my personal experience, how but so just two things. So working in different corporations, and seeing where the black people work in what departments and in what job grades they work in is very telling about the culture of that company, not necessarily the black people in general. It says something about the types of black people that they hire. So I'll say that when I work for JCPenney, they're very big on having a college degree. They're very particular. Most of the black people that I saw were in hourly positions, in lower level roles. Most of management was white. So I think sometimes being in an environment and all you see is white people and management, it sinks, starts to sink into your subconscious that that is not something that I can't aspire to, because look at what's around me, and maybe not even thinking about it in a way that is conscious. It's what you see. It's just like watching TV and seeing white images of beauty, and then you start to aspire to that, to that, to that lighter and brighter image of beauty, versus in areas where I've worked, where you see it mixed up, where there's black people in management, there's women, it's more diverse. You know, you can say, look, look at that sister. She's doing it. She's a senior project manager. I wonder how she got to do that. And you can go and talk to her and say, I want to be mentored by you, because I think you're awesome. You know that that's the difference, I think some that I see sometimes. And so last year, I had an intern. She's super smart computer science major, and she's interested in certain things, and so I was trying to teach her some of those soft skills, because I knew she had the technical skills. But once she entered corporate America, I was trying to mentor her on how to navigate and kind of look, look for things that you want to do, and align yourself with people that are doing, things that you want to do, how to do that? Those are skills. So that's kind of back to the soft skills that people don't necessarily teach you. And then also, I'll say that my current manager asked me. He's like, Well, I want you to this is the first manager I've ever had asked me to do this. And I've been in corporate America since I was 24 and I'm old now. He said, I want you to come up with a plan. I want to know where you want to be in one this year, in the next 12 months, you know when the next 24 months and three to five years out, and what is that dream role that you will want to have? And find me a similar job description for that dream role. It really caused me to think and plan like I have an idea of what I want to do, but I hadn't put it on paper in a way to where I could articulate it for that person who wants to sponsor me to figure out a practical way to do it, so if he knows where I want to go, he can figure out things to do to help me along the way. Does that make
sense? Yeah, it does, absolutely. I think one of the things too that came up for me as I was reading this is that so the whole statement of how black women are more likely to aspire to a leadership position, coupled with the earliest statement of black women tend to put their heads down, like, I need that broken down and explain to me how those two fit in the same paradigm. Like, how did, how does that fit into the same thing? Like, I would need a more critical analysis of, um, exactly what that what that would look like. Did you have something to say, Kiana before I move to the next thing. Um,
not really. Then when I, when I read this one, it goes back to, and I'm glad that you went in a little bit more in depth when it came to the suffrage movement. When I initially, when I thought about the suffrage movement there, meaning, like women started out, we didn't have our rights, and then when I read this part, it made me think of black women playing catch up. So you're at when the what you explain is exactly is exactly right. And so, because, you know of the catch up, you know, it's more so aspiring to do more to push for those leadership roles because of the privilege. So once we did get rights, this this is what, this is how. Because I'm, you know, I'm sorry, I apologize. I didn't explain it thoroughly when I said the suffrage movement. But you're, you're absolutely right. I thought of it more so that separate, the separate. So when white women were getting a little bit more privileges, and so is more so playing that catch up role, that catchable, that's what I that's when I read that aspiring for leadership positions. That's what I thought of.
No, that's a good that's a good thing to bring into it, to it, because I wasn't thinking along those lines. But when you say that, that makes perfect sense to me. I also
think about it in terms of education. So you know, when my mom sat down for career counseling, her career counselor told her, Oh, you did well in typing. I think you should be a secretary. And my grandmother had a master's degree in English and was teaching special ed, and mom, so my mom came home and told my grandmother that, and she was like, Okay, that's cool, but you're going to college, you're going right around the corner historically black institution, right? And you're going free, and you're gonna do something else? You can be a teacher, social worker, you know, typical black people careers, you know, but you was going to college like so I think sometimes, you know, and I think there's low expectations for black children, thus setting the standard to not want to and aspire to achieve. There's some low expectations sometimes that, you know, those kinds of things are kind of put into their head, that this is all you can do. You can be a rapper, a ball player. If you don't do that, you got to go work for FedEx, like I mean, and there's nothing wrong with that, but there's more to life than that. And if I can reflect on my grandmother, my mother and I have those images. But some people don't know. Some people, they're the first person to graduate high school, or they're the first person to graduate from college, right? You know, like you say, playing catch up and leveling that playing field where you know, miss, you know, you know, Shelley with the blue eyes, her mom is an attorney, a partner in a law firm, exactly
that ketchup they they've had, you think about coming from money? Yeah. Well,
not, not. They have wealth. Wow, generational. Yes. Sure, yes, it's different.
That is such a good point, I mean, because it makes a difference. Like, if you are starting out at the beginning of the race, and then, you know, I'm smooth, like, I don't, I don't have to be trying twice as hard. I don't. I don't have my mommy pick
up the phone and left some calls for me. Oh, my mommy can do that for me. Yeah.
No, that is a that's a fantastic point that you made, and I feel like someone to some of what you brought up. Stephanie reminds me of the black educators episode where some of the black educators would talk about some studies that people had found where white teachers have lower expectations of black students than black teachers do. Yeah, the role that the teachers expectations play in the development and entertainment and all of those things, I think that that's particularly interesting. Remind me. It reminded me of that when you said mention the thing about your grandmother power. So the next two points that the that the report makes is women are not a monolithic group. I think we are kind of saying this throughout the thing that black and white women contend with very different workplace challenges. I think some are the same, but the ones that are based in gender initiatives that effectively identify and retain top talent must consider the unique challenge, challenges black women face, and the leadership aspirations they offer. And another point was, companies benefit now. So here's what I here's the interesting thing is that companies benefit from rewarding Black Women's Leadership aspirations, and I wanted to know more about if they do benefit, why isn't it being done more, or is it being done more? And I'm just not hearing about
it. I mean, I'll be honest. You know, be when it comes to statistics and like, where are they getting this information? I understand it. I have just, oh man. And this article is, it's just interesting. It's, I think that I don't know, like this. This article is rough for me. It's it's rough for me. It really is. When it comes to companies benefit from rewarding black leadership, where, how did you even measure that? Yeah,
right. How
right benefit in what manner, reputationally or financially?
Right? See, that's the question that I have. How are they benefiting? And if they are actually benefiting, then why aren't more doing it? Now, don't get me wrong. I think diversity and inclusion benefits businesses, I do because you have a diversity of ideas, you're you're more creative and that sort of thing, but I don't think that a lot of especially if you're a big corporation. I don't think you necessarily want diversity of ideas. I think what you really want is representation of race. So have all of these representations, but all think the same, and I think that that's a lot of times what corporations end up going for, and they might benefit from diversity, because whatever kickback they get from the government, or whatever it appears, or what have you. Now, I personally feel like you know corporations would or do. I could see that happening. I just want to know how it's showing up for them, and if that it, and if it's, you know, all of those ways that it is showing up from the ones who are tell the other people, like, get the word out. Get the word out. So, you know, I mean reports are reports that you know you can find one port report that say one thing you can find another. And we all know that that's the case.
Don't get a job making up studies, because it seems to be and
see, that's the thing. That is the thing, why it's all that's the thing about being a critical thinker too. Because people will just get one thing and that's it, and they ain't trying to read nothing else. They ain't trying to do nothing else. That is just what they're sticking to. But, and then also, I think another thing about being critical is you could say, Oh, I agree with this right here, but this right here, like I don't have any experience with that. I don't know what you're talking about, and I don't even know how you came to XYZ conclusion, quirks, places, they want diverse, ethnic groups that think the same. That's not diversity, right? I agree. I think that. Go ahead.
I'm. Sorry. Well, I will say that when you're working in a company that I mean, like, if we talked about that, it's a certain culture there, and they look for people that fit within the culture, right? So I'll just talk about working for Nordstrom. So it's a very high pace, very competitive sort of company, and you cannot come to work looking crazy. It's a fashion company. They sell clothes you you have to fit within the guidelines of what is unspoken, but how you dress on the interview really dictates to whether or not you'll get the job. So they look for very quirky people, people that are outgoing, very stylish sort of people. That's the culture, but it's not. I don't but my experience is that they're not looking for robots. I've never worked anywhere where people were looking for for a step, for type robotic mentality. Do they want you to fit in with the people or within that department? Yes, but I think that we actually, in my position, I actually would look for people to bring different ideas, because I get tired of coming up with all the ideas like I get tired of. I'm tired. I need somebody to bring something else to the table, you know. And I feel like, especially within within it, which is this particular industry, kind of like, and especially information security, which is very narrow, they look for people that are highly qualified, no matter what you can do like, no matter what you look like, however, they need people that are problem solvers. And to be a problem solver, you're gonna have to bring different opinions and thoughts to the table to solve problems, because you can't. It's not always the same. So I would say, to a certain degree, they look for you to fit into the culture personality wise, but not always based on race. It's not always based on what you look like, right? I think there's more of a personality issue, yeah, and
I think that, I think that that speaks to a place could have racial diversity and everybody can still fit into the culture, and it not be particularly different, and not to say that these people aren't brilliant. They could be brilliant people. They could be fantastic, very intelligent people. Believe that I can see how that can happen. So there's a lot of good things that I got from you guys. I'm so studious, I'm like, the ultimate student. I'll be taking notes.
That's awesome. So
one of the things that I hope that everybody takes away from this, and if you don't, then I'm going to share what I got from this whole conversation as well is about, again, I'm going to reiterate this, participating in diversity groups, how that could be helpful. When I worked for the State Department, I worked, I was in a diversity group that was based on women. I had, there was one that was women in executive leadership at state, at State Department, and that was a good group to be a part of. And then it was I was a part of big which is Blacks in Government. And both of those I found helpful, you know, if for no other reason than they let you know about different things that's going on, what's coming up, you know, and how to navigate some of these unspoken, spoken things that we're talking about. So I think that that's one thing that black women in corporate America could definitely take away before I go to the other ones. Keyon, I'm just gonna let you know. I'm going to come to you to give us because you are the happy work week lady. I want you to give us some takeaways and happy corporate America.
You want me to do that, even
if it's water too. So I'll just let you know it's coming. Um, I like what you said. Steph, so you mentioned about carving out the niche for yourself, but there's also a danger in that that you mentioned, in terms of don't not being the single point of failure, right? Screws up. If you screw up this whole thing like this, screws up right?
Or because you're the only person doing that job, you no one will promote you because they can't backfill it, right?
Oh, that's so that I have seen happen, that has happened to me, that I have seen happen. Because if I'm if I promote you, then who else is going to do this job? I have definitely that happen. Um, Pat says she's talking to Joel. So for me, it's rare to find black people who are competent in their background, in workplace. Maybe it's just me in their background. Say more about that. Pat. I'm gonna come back to that um. One of another thing that I got from this is, I guess it's just like academia in that language is currency, um. And you know how you say things, and, of course, mentorship, and how mentorship, or they call it in this article sponsorship, how that's so important, because there are some things that go on in your particular office. You know, different offices have their own culture and quirks and ups and downs workplace. Haha, they have their own quirks. Um, and sometimes you might know, like, Listen, don't talk to Dan until he had three cups of coffee. Because whatever you ask him, he's gonna say no. And that's not something that's written necessarily in the handbook. But if I go to work with Kiana, um, I'm gonna let her know. Listen, don't go talk then, until he a certain cup of coffee, because whatever he says is going to be no or know that when you sign up to go to this meeting, we're going to have a meeting about the meeting, and then a subcommittee to meet about the meeting that we're going to have. Listen, it goes down in the workplace, although, um, know that you got to document everything with Sarah, because Sarah loses papers or don't personal. When Tasha send you an email and she CC everybody in the office, she does that to all of us. So just like these little things that people do, it would be nice to have someone to say, don't spaz out, because I do believe that there are times where people are just, you know, for lack of better word, I'm going to say, but, and they're not necessarily racist or against you because you're a black woman, they're just butts and you don't know that they're but, so you need somebody to say, Listen, this is how he act when this goes down. And yes, I do. I had that experience on Thursday.
There's this guy that I have this meeting at 8am and I don't do 8am meetings for one, but I have to, we have to accommodate people in London and Hong Kong and in Singapore, so it has to be at 8am so there's a negative Nancy, and I knew it from like from the jump the first meeting we ever had. I already knew he was a complainer. So I had done, I had taken some unstructured data and turned it into structured data and put it into and normalized it, as they say, so that it would be in a usable format. It took me like, three days to do this, because they had all gathered this information in different ways over time. So I'm just coming in, like, trying to, you know, compile this list, because we now have a new director, and he used to be the Deputy Director of the FBI. He ain't playing like, I gotta get this stuff together and send it up the food chain for him. So we had a that was on the agenda for the staff meeting, and we get to talking, and I already knew he made you know the person that gets on the meeting. You like this could be a 15 minute meeting, except so box, and it's gonna be a 30 minute or hour meeting when it really should have been 15 to 20 minutes, like he's that person. So he gets to talking, and I'm going through my methodology and how organize the data, what really needs to be worked on, what needs to be fixed, and kind of what, you know, my thought process was, and I pulled the drop down so they could kind of see what some of the choices were in the fields and that they needed to update. And he starts, he starts going in on one of the things, and, well, how did you assign this? And what calculation did you do this? He was like, going in on me. Now, mind you, I'm just collating the data that I was given, and he knows that. And my manager is there. And so my manager is basically like, trying to tell him that she's just organizing the day that she's been given. Now here comes the diversity thing. They understand each other better because they're both British. I'm a southern black girl just trying to do my job and keep my head down, so to speak. But I already knew this one dude is a negative Nancy, the guy in London. But my manager is British, but he's here, so he's been in Houston, so he kind of understands me. And, you know, we've gotten to talk or whatever, so I'm just like, you know, it just went on and on and on, and I felt like I had been if you if somebody was just listening to that call, you would think he was shooting the messenger, but I already had him picked, so I didn't take it personal. So those are some of the things that you have to be aware of when you're listening and paying attention to that currency, that you're talking about, that language, currency, and how people speak, and knowing when to take it personal and when to not take it personal. But my manager actually called him after that. Called and was like, Look, I don't know what's going on. So he's was just frustrated because he didn't like the process overall, and it seemed like he was taking it out on me. And then he and when he called me, he so my manager tells him, well, he's like, Well, give him, you know, tell Stephanie that I didn't mean it that way. Blah, blah, blah. She's like, well, she's an experienced lady. She's worked at major corporations before. I'm sure she didn't take it personal, but if you feel like you need to apologize for call her. And so he called, and I'm like, No, I didn't take it personal. I understand, even if I did, I wouldn't tell him that, because I never let him see me sweat. But anyway, I understand what you're saying. So that was actually like, that's my Thursday. The thorn in my side at 8am meeting on Thursday, and I know he's gonna complain about watching his replay on YouTube. I hope so.
Go ahead and give us some happy work corporate week.
I, you know, I don't even know where to begin with that. You know, you because I am the type of individual that I will keep it straight, but there's like you said, stuff is so true. It's so important your your words, how you say it, and what you say. And I don't bite my tongue, but I do say it in a way that it's professional. And but I am here in a position to make things better, okay? And so I have to say one thing that I Agree, Agree. Steph says, don't take things personal. Are you talking about specifically about, is it okay? Are you, are you talking about specifically about just this chat in general, which is, see that
I think one of the last things that I just got from Steph too, is like, just don't take things personally, you know, like, whatever. What helps you, like, during the week, when you're talking to your clients, what is it that you have? What are some of the things that you tell them to help them through their work? Oh,
oh, I got that all day, all day, all day. Okay, the biggest thing that I know my clients have issue with is confidence, and it kind of ties into what I was saying. If you're confident in knowing the abilities that you have and what you all you can offer a company and how you can make things better, it comes down to revenue. I can make you more money if we do XYZ. That doesn't always work. I get it, but really play your position in that way. Don't take things personal, like Steph was saying, but have that confidence behind those skills. Is so, so important. And uh, really, uh, find um ways to really use your best skill set each and every day. I think
one of the reasons why that's so big in terms of confidence, because depending upon how up you are in corporate America or the place that you work, how prestigious it is, you can start to have the imposter syndrome, and that could really, really impact how you navigate. So thank you for that. Um, we have about 15 more minutes, but before this thing shuts down on us and it will shut down on us, I want you guys to let everyone know how Thank you, Shelby. Let everyone know how they can get swift with you, so how they could connect on Snapchat, your website, Instagram, Facebook or Twitter. So I'ma let Kiana go first.
What? What? What you can find me everything happy work week on Twitter, at Happy work week on Facebook, happy work week, happy work week.com.
Everything, happy work week. Yes,
okay, so you can find me at social stuff on Twitter. You can also find me at the hers, mine and yours group on Facebook, which is Rasheem and I show here on fire talk Thursday nights at 8:30pm and I believe our next topic will be long distance relationships. Our last topic was online dating, and it was a funny one. We had so
much fun online. Dating That was funny. Yes, I think when we have the show on long distance relationships, I think that's gonna be a hoot
about that, because I've been in
several that's gonna be a hoot. Zan, I hope you show up for that one too. Of course, you guys can always find me at S rasheem.com um, s Rasheem on Twitter, s Rasheem on Instagram, s Rasheem on Snapchat. And you can find this show on YouTube, um, you could type in counter narrative, or you could type in the actual title of this show, which is this episode is black women in corporate America. So until next time, peace it out. Wait. We got to dance out to something. Hold on, y'all. Let me find some. Oh, I know exactly. See. The only thing about YouTube, though, is it starts off with these things on commercials.
Yeah, I
want to listen to no commercial. I just want to get straight to the dancing so, and we're gonna start out with the typical, what I like to call the typical black girl dance, and everybody freestyle. If you don't know what the typical black girl dance, don't worry you about to learn. Oh
gosh. Well, I thank everyone for joining us. The comments were amazing. Yes, it was. Thank you they gave
Dad. You.