054 | How to Build a Drink Brand Bottom-up | Chris Maffeo with Vani Gupta Dandia (New Delhi, India)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 054 I had the pleasure of speaking with Vani Gupta Dandia. I was a guest in her Marketing with Vani Podcast were she interviews marketing people from various industries. We dived into the Drinks Industry, looking at it from outside. I hope you will enjoy our chat Time Stamps 0:00 Intro 0:26 Background 2:00 What Differentiates Alcohol 3:05 Target Occasions 7:35 Bridging Categories 9:22 Gender Stereotypes 11:12 Tracking What You Can Track 13:47 Educating Consumers 18:11 Role Of Storytelling 20:24: Bottom Up Trade 24:17 Being Everything To Everyone 26:40 Playing with Variations 31:39 Cross Generational Appeal 36:36 Functional VS Recreational 39:54 Building Brands Bottom Up 46:17 Outro About The Host: Chris Maffeo About The Guest: Vani Gupta Dandia

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Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Vani Gupta Gandia

FMCG Consultant

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Maffeo Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host Chris Maffeo in
episode 54.

I had the pleasure of speaking
with Vani Gupta, Dandia.

I was a guest in her Marketing
with Vani podcast where she

interviews marketing people from
various industries.

We dived into the drinks
industry looking at it from

outside.
I hope you will enjoy your chat.

So why don't we start with an
introduction?

Tell us a little about your
stance.

I'm Italian.
I'm originally from Rome, but

I've lived 18 years abroad in
six countries in Europe.

But I've been working with many
countries all around the world

and my background.
I started in agencies or

branding agencies and then at
some point I felt the need of

growing client side.
So I entered A multinational SAB

Miller which doesn't exist
anymore.

Now it's it was split up and
then I transition into Casper

and after many years in
multinationals then I decided to

go on my own and I started in a
Fair Drinks which is my

consulting company.
I help companies build their

brands bottom up.
I think we will deep dive more

later into what I mean by bottom
up, but it's basically a very

pragmatic approach to brand
building that blends marketing

and sales in a coherent way.
Because the driver of starting

my company was basically I was
tired of all these arguments and

fights between marketing and
sales.

And I said to myself there is a
way to to make this left and

right arm cooperate together and
build brands.

So that is in a nutshell what I
do.

And I have a podcast, the my
third drinks podcast it's.

Amazing how sales and marketing
being at loggerheads is a team

across the world, across
organizations.

It's the same thing that you
hear everywhere, irrespectable

category and I love what you
said that it doesn't have to be

like that.
At the end of the day, marketing

has to help the business grow
and if marketing is not helping

the business grow, then
something is not right.

So marketing and sales have to
work together.

But before we come to your
bottoms up approach, Chris, tell

me how is building a brand for
an alcohol beverage different

from building a brand in any
other category, the color

cosmetics or anything else?
The theory is the same, I would

say.
What changes in alcohol brands

is that the fact that you are
more like outspoken about it.

So if you take, I don't know a
cosmetic brand, it's a little

bit more personal, like you only
speak about it with your close

friends and so on, but you
don't, you don't walk into an

office saying, oh, do you want
to smell my perfume or feel my

hands, how soft they are, face
the screen.

So with alcoholic brands, if you
walk into a bar there is a more

intrinsic elements.
So I like a certain liquids and

I want to drink that liquid.
But there is an extrinsic

element which is more like a
show of approach where I want to

be seen with that bottle of
vodka, I want to be seen

drinking that whiskey.
I want to show off in ordering,

and I want to be perceived as a
connoisseur on that front.

I'm hearing you say two kinds of
things.

One you're saying is that there
are kinds of consumers.

I may have a particular kind of
a drink.

I'm a whiskey person, or I'm a
gin and tonic person, or I'm a

vodka person.
Maybe that's one very

stereotypical way of
categorizing the consumer.

But we come to that as well
because I know you have a point

of view on that.
And the second would be that

alcohol is very projection LED,
it's very imagery LED.

It's not just about me having a
whiskey evening, it's about

which whiskey am I seeing
ordering.

Let's talk about the first kind.
Is it true that in the world of

alcohol consumers that there is
a whiskey consumer versus a

vodka versus what?
Are there moments of

consumption?
I have a whiskey evening and

then I have a gin and tonic
somehow.

You are touching me on a very
personal fate that I'm having in

the last couple of years against
target consumers and I'm a big

fan of target occasion versus
target consumers.

Now of course is not black and
white.

It starts like you rightfully
said, I'm a gin and tonic type

of drinker, so that let's say
the majority of what you do

could lean into something.
So for example, I love pizza.

It doesn't mean that I only eat
pizza.

It's part of the pool of things
that I like as a food, same

thing as we drink.
So it could be that if I go out,

and I personally go out in
certain occasions, I may skew

towards gin and tonic, but
that's mainly driven, in my

opinion, by the fact that's what
I'm used to and that's maybe

what I got introduced to by some
friends.

But in reality it all goes back
to the occasion because I may

drink, for example, a gin and
tonic when I go out and sit

outside on a terrace in the sun.
But that vocation actually is

not only a gin and tonic
occasion.

It could be a streets occasion,
it could be a light beer

occasion, it could be a prosaic
or champagne occasion.

We tend to picture this target
personas but then all this

target persona overlap and I
always give the example of I'm a

Negroni type of drinker.
I like to drink just like

default on Negroni.
So if I don't want to think but

then if I'm out with my wife on
the terrace outside and she's

always ordering spritz then I'll
I may say OK two spritzes.

So I just default on what's
easier because there is this

element with consumer especially
in drinks that you default to

the path of least resistance.
If you are with five people and

four order and gin and tonic,
you will order gin and tonic

too.
So you want to blend in in in a

category.
So the others thing is that when

you say the whiskey guy or the
gin and tonic person or whatever

ultimately goes back to to taste
profile.

So you like Jane because first
of all because traditionally you

may have been skewed towards
Jane because of the nationality

you're from.
Maybe gin could be a bigger

thing in Britain, but less of a
thing in in Italy for example.

So it goes back to a few
elements that I would say for

example does the raw material
elements.

So I may like, I don't know
grapes or grain or fruits or a

certain level of ABV.
So for example you may be put

off by a Negroni because it's
too alcoholic and then you would

go with the streets because it's
less alcoholic.

Then there is the element of
maturation processing.

It could be on virals, care one
to have it like aged.

You know it's a whiskey that
it's aged or it's a product that

it's aged.
So many times when you skew

towards the category and you
think you are a whiskey person,

if there are some elements that
you like about that, it would,

it could be the aging, It could
be the certain flavor.

It could be smokiness because
you want to have a smoky Scotch

or it could be the, you know,
the sweetness of a bourbon

compared to a Scotch, you know,
like.

So there's these kind of
elements and we tend to forget

that that in the end we
oversimplify by saying I'm a gym

person, but what I may like is,
OK, maybe it's the botanicals,

maybe it's actually the toning.
But I like I could have a vodka

tonic and it would be exactly
the same.

Very interesting, which means
that it's important to pull out

what is the real bit that's
appealing to this consumer or

what are the elements we can
break this down into?

And then if, for example, if
you're a tonic kind of person,

then there are zillion other
tonic cocktails that can be

offered to this consumer.
And that's a great way to

actually bridge between
categories like people think of

the main big categories, no
whiskey, vodka, rum, Jam by All

This by Gavin nowadays and so
on.

But in reality, you may be able
to trade in people through

another category because when we
are in big companies and bored

conversation, it's always how we
are the number one in the color

in this category, you know.
But in reality, for example, if

you take Miss Style, which is
Smokey, could be easy to trade

in from a Scotch like a heated
Scotch drinker, which is also

smoky.
So it's like that you have some

elements of a botanical.
Maybe you could trade in

vermouth, which is very rich in
botanicals, with Jim, which is

also rich in botanicals.
So maybe we would do a vermouth

and tonic instead of a gene and
tonic, because maybe what you

realize is actually or.
I thought I liked gin, but

actually I like the botanical
element of gin.

Very interesting, which means
that marketers then have a whole

different way of even looking at
where they stand in the

category.
Like you said, it's very typical

of all brand managers and this
is typical of all categories.

And similarly, so far alcohol,
instead of just looking at your

market share within that narrow
vertical, think about it could

be market share therefore not
just by botanicals.

In the botanicals, it could even
be market share by consumer

occasion, all the tag parties,
for example, whether there is a

certain kind of a mood and it's
associated more with beer

instead of beer.
Could there be another drink

that makes an entry and still
provides exactly that kind of

light Merriman amongst a bunch
of guys?

Or it's also very difficult to
think of guys and beer, which is

also not right.
And I've heard someone say, I'm

walking down the alcohol aisle
one day and someone looked at me

and he picked up this this vodka
which was a premix with some

lemon and something else and he
said, look, now this drink is a

more ladylike drink.
What exactly is ladylike about?

This is another point I'm very
passionate about because it's

totally untrue When I see a
PowerPoint deck, no.

And it's OK, we are 50% men or
women or 20% women, 80% men.

It doesn't mean anything because
it's about palettes.

Maybe it's for people that like
citrus taste profile because

it's lemon in it.
No.

Or some other drinks.
It could be like with people

with a bit of a sweet tooth.
I'm a bitter type of guy and I'm

not a sour type of guy, so I
don't like whiskey sour, Bisco

sour.
I don't like all the sour

drinks, I like the bitter
drinks.

So to balance the sweetness, I
want to balance it with

bitterness and not with
sourness.

So for me personally, that's why
I always cute was Negroni or the

empathies because it's it suits
my taste profile.

And I realized, for example,
that I used not to be a gin

drinker because I didn't like
that there was always lime or

lemon in the gin and tonic, and
I hated that kind of like

overpowering, lemony, citrusy
flavor.

So it wasn't about the gin, it
was about this overwhelming

citrus elements that I didn't
like.

And that goes back to man women.
You could be skewed towards like

sweet fruits or more sour kind
of fruits.

And then again, we go back to
the element of crossing between

categories.
And to your previous point, I

would say it's also because
companies want to track things

and then sometimes they track
what they can track even though

they know it's wrong.
I love that what at times we

track by what can be tracked
100%.

That is the thing, because
obviously categories are easier

to track than to your previous
element apparative moment or

enough to dinner moment that you
cannot track.

But it doesn't mean that it's
not correct, so it doesn't mean

that you should still be in your
bubble or vodka.

When I used to work on Peroni I
was working like very often on

on this because I said we are
targeting this apparative

moment.
And for me, I'm fighting

spirits, I'm fighting gin and
tonic, I'm fighting Prosecco,

I'm fighting many other things
and I don't care about other

beers because the only beer I
would fight would be for example

like a Corona.
And I'm not fighting an IPA

because the IPA doesn't fit into
that pre dinner drinks because

it's not a free drink.
That's more like something that

goes with food or with a burger
or with something more.

What is an Ida?
IBA like it's an Indian Indian

village, so it's a beer that is
very rich in healthiness and

also quite alcoholic.
So it could be like .5% ABV for

example.
Like if they're only like an

Italian Mediterranean lager, it
would be on a 5.1%.

Because not much about the ABV,
but it's about it.

The richness of taste, like a
certain beer that is made for a

certain climate and a certain
food may be more appropriate for

a bruschetta like tomatoes and
mozzarella and bread then on a

burger, because I always go back
to the traditional occasion.

That's what I meant before about
what's your nationality because

used you towards certain habits
because that's how your palates

develop.
This is your country that likes

spicy food then do they like
like for do they like fish or do

they not like fit and live in
Prague?

And usually people don't are not
so used to fish or let's say,

fishy kind of flavors.
And the people that I'm more

used to meat because it's a
landlocked country, they may not

like it.
I always like to play with these

elements to really localize the
strategy to the country and

understand, OK, what do these
people usually like and how can

we play not against them with
them?

Because if you cannot change the
habits of a nation with a brand,

you will need trillions of
dollars to change the

consumption habits on food and
beverages.

It's a very interesting thing
that you've said, Chris, because

the alcohol, like you said right
at the beginning, it's very

projection oriented.
It's a lot about showing to the

word, oh, I'm this kind of a
person.

I have the expensive whiskey and
I don't have cheap whiskey right

now.
I'm seeing and I saw this in the

papers as well, It's becoming
very fashionable to collect gyms

from all around the world like
you just said, even about the

palate and the combination, the
wines or alcohol is meant to

complement the palate that
you're accustomed to do that

even over here.
And I would imagine that the

degree of education would vary
in different parts of the world.

But because it is so projection
oriented, this whole category is

so much about imagery.
Is there a role that brands can

play even in a educating
consumers?

Do they?
And we How do brands play this

insecurity to that advantage,
which is have this kind of a

whiskey because it makes you
look like this kind of a person?

For me, the way forward on doing
this is to really keep it very

simple and be able to have a
couple of elements to explain to

people why they should drink.
That's like the reasons behind

it in a very simple way.
And then you expand because for

me, ultimately it's about I
imagine I come for dinner at

your place and I bring you a
bottle or whatever that would

gin or wine or something.
There is a lot talking about

storytelling now, but I'm always
distinguishing between what I

call the fluffy storytelling and
the pragmatic storytelling.

So what you want to know is that
you want to know something that

first of all you understand why
I brought it to you and then you

can replicate that language with
somebody.

Because then the moment you say,
oh why did you buy it or I

bought it at this shop, OK, I
want to buy it again and then I

will bring it to my friends or
maybe I will buy 3 bottles.

That when people are coming to
my place I'm going to explain it

to them.
But it has to be simple in a way

that it goes well with this food
or the botanicos used here are

amplifying that certain taste
profile.

Ultimately it's about I want to
explain it in a very simple way

and that's why you should have
it this way.

So for example, we are having an
Italian dinner and may bring you

an Italian beer or an Italian
wine but then it would be OK and

then you want to find out more
but I need to give you those

couple of 2-3 ammunitions to
sell again to your friends when

you explain it again.
So I always bring the example of

when a friend of mine came to my
place and she brought me a

bottle of Hendrix gin.
And I was not a gin drinker.

And I was a bit disappointed
when she said it's gin as a Oh

no gin.
But then she said like if you

don't like gin you will like
this one.

And and then I was like, OK tell
me more now I'm interested and

this kid, there is a ritual that
goes with the cucumber in the

gin and tonic.
Like cucumber is one of the

elements that is inside the
product and and it's made for

people who don't like gin.
She she explained it to me And

then I'm like now I got it and
then I tasted it and then the

the the cucumber was making it
sweet compared to my previous

experience of lemon in the gin
and tonic.

And then all of a sudden I was
like, wow, OK, now I get it.

And now I actually like it.
More importantly, the MMN was

all about the execution.
Because when she told me, we

literally went to the shop to
buy a cucumber because I didn't

have any.
She said you won't be surprised.

All the bars do it the right way
with Cucumber.

And I was like, come on, it's
not possible.

And then we went to two or three
bars and they all knew that he

was going with Cucumber.
So ultimately it's because I

knew that I could rely on that
execution that whenever I was

going to order and Hendrix and
Tony, I would get the cucumber

and I wouldn't ask to discuss
with a barman, why did you put

Lime, why did you put Lemon?
I don't want Lemon and so on.

So if you can nail this
pragmatic storytelling, like the

two or three elements that you
want to discuss, and if you can

combine it with a perfect
execution in the store or in the

bar, that's where you actually
win with the Trains brand.

That's a beautiful example,
Chris.

Now in our country, alcohol
advertising is banned, so

everything happens on the shelf
and everything is all surrogate

advertising.
But even for other parts of the

world in countries like yours,
it's a very mature, evolved

category, isn't it, where you
would have unending number of

choices in just about anything
in that word.

Chris, tell me a what is the
role of storytelling like?

You just talked about meaningful
storytelling, but this

storytelling one may not always
have the ability or the finance

capability to promote every
brand because storytelling can

only be promoted.
If I have the ability to bring

that story to you via some media
vehicle now, where I don't have

that luxury, then the packaging
or what I do with it on shelf

will have to do the talking.
What do you tell us a little

about just the role of execution
in store and the role of

packaging?
So first of all, like the

packaging, it's crucially
important.

My first point would be don't
change the packaging unless

there are really big issues with
your packaging because people

want to relate to something they
know and they don't want to have

all kind of like.
Exactly.

So you're an old legacy brand.
Don't change the packaging for

sure, because then you are
messing with the memory

structure.
People, people wouldn't be able

to relate back to, oh, this is
the same, right?

Perfect.
Yes.

Then the second, of course you
can play with some storytelling,

but in a very simple way.
Example of Hendrix.

I remember that I was shocked
when I read there was a small

like neck hanger, one of the
small booklets on the you put on

the boat.
So then he was saying ranked by

a by a tiny handful of people
around the world and I think

it's still there in the
packaging and it's

counterintuitive now because
people would want to show off

that they are everywhere, drank
by everyone and they're huge and

so on.
And there was even saying this

gym is not for everyone.
It wasn't like in a show off

kind of way because the price
point, of course it was more

expensive but it wasn't like a
super expensive kind of drink.

But that is an element that you
can play with.

But also it's about how fast you
want to grow your brand and

obviously the resources you have
and.

To your previous point about
your region and India being a

dark market in the sense that
you cannot, you cannot

advertise.
There was actually one of the

biggest gifts that I had myself
because I started working on

brands in Scandinavia, which is
a dark market as well and

actually started like my
previous clients from the

branding side where tobacco
brands.

So I couldn't, I never thought
about ATL.

I never understood anything
about ATL.

That goes back to the bottom up
way, which is really.

You.
Have to work with the least

resources possible that you
have.

Imagine it's you alone funny
walking around bars and stores

and selling the product
yourself.

You don't have budget for
advertising, you don't have

budget for other thing.
So how do you scale back to the

minimum?
So now the most important thing

is that we all know the
alcoholic brands, the perfect

arena are it's building them in
the own trade.

On trade you would mean like in
hotels and?

At bars and grounds, cafes and
so on, that is the first thing.

But I've always been like I'm
known as a non trade guy.

But now I'm explaining myself in
a different way that I'm a

bottom up type of guy because
I'm a big fan of something that

is called bottom up trade, which
is a nerd.

It is the name that I invented.
It doesn't exist anywhere

because it's not about on trade
and off trade.

It's not about bars and
restaurants and supermarket.

It's about where can you
actually have some support and

hell for storytelling apart from
the packaging and pricing that

you previously stated.
Now yes, if I can have imagine

like a small nice bottle store
in Delhi when there is a shop

assistant that is very
passionate about whiskies and

vodkas and so on and explain it
to me.

So I can be on my own reading
all the packaging and looking at

the shelves.
But I can ask for help to

someone that can actually help
me to tell that story.

That previous story that I said
if I'm coming over for dinner

and and that is exactly the same
in a store or in a bar with a

bartender.
So the way I see the bottom up

trade is basically the trade in
which you actually build the

brand and you don't just sell
the brand because either you

have a bartender or you have a
shop assistant or an owner to

help you with making those
choices.

So I like to picture it in a way
that there is someone between

you and the bottle.
If there is someone with you on

the bottle, then you are in a
bottom up tree.

If there is an elemental
storytelling, it could be a very

mainstream bar or restaurant
where the guy or the girl is

just an order taker and then you
just read the manual and say,

oh, gin and tonic.
Or it could be like oh, what

would you like to drink?
Oh, I'm thinking of having a gin

and tonic.
Oh, do you want to have it with

this gin or with this gin?
What food are you planning to

eat later?
If you want to have something

heavier than I would recommend
this one.

If you want to have something
like if botanicals would be

overwhelming, so I would
recommend this gym that is an

empty lighter in in taste,
profile and so on.

That's what companies get wrong.
I think that they just segment

on trade and off trade, so bars
and restaurants and supermarkets

and they say on trade is where
you build the brand, but it's

not all on trade is the same
because a bottle shop with a

nice boutique wine shop, it's
totally different than a

supermarket, although you you've
you've got the same shell.

Got it, got it.
Like you said that there is a

human being between the bottle
and the consumer and you're

basically creating brand
ambassadors and those brand

ambassadors could be created at
the restaurant, at the bar or

equally like you said in a
boutique shop or even just at

the shelf.
That's fantastic.

And with that, there was a
comment you also made somewhere

about how there are brands who
think that they can be

everything to everyone, and when
you try and be everything to

everyone you be, you become
nothing to no one.

Give us your short take on that,
although I know you've already

spoken a lot about consumers.
Yeah.

Now just to recap, it goes back
to what I mean by bottom up, you

know because we tend to think
especially big companies tend to

think in this kind of like size
of prize and where can we get,

we want to launch this product
because we're going to enter

this category and we're going to
aim for 5% market share and then

10% market share and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah.

No.
But then it gets lost in

translation and then it's OK.
But how do you do it?

You cannot do helicopter money
kind of way.

You cannot just do ATL.
And then you have an army of

seas people that spam the CD and
put one bottle in all the

possible bars and restaurants in
that city.

And then you you may have made
your target OK, but then about

next year And what about your or
what about next month?

Because the product is not
rotating.

So the only way for me is to
really understand what is the

target occasion you want to go
for, what is the kind of taste

profile?
Why do you want to go own that

niche?
Now some people are against

nations and there's a lot of
good debates about they

shouldn't go for a nation and so
on.

You want to have people that
like this kind of flavor and

dislike this thing and then this
kind of wood and so on.

And then all of a sudden your
arena, it's much smaller and

it's much easier for you to
actually understand where to

fight because otherwise then you
cannot fight with all the drinks

at the bar with 20 cocktails on
the menu, correct?

You don't know where to fight.
And besides that, you also find

a space in the consumer's mind
because now the consumer then

this is what this particular
brand is about.

And if I find a space in the
mind, then going back to your

earlier conversation, if there
is that kind of an occasion, if

there is that kind of a mood,
then I know what brand pick

versus trying to be everything
to everyone because then you

become nothing to know one
you're basically very fuzzy and

one doesn't know what why should
I be picking up this over

others.
There is nothing that you're

standing for.
And it goes, it goes back to the

to those 4-5 elements like the
raw material, the ABV, the

flavours, the processing and the
maturation because you can play

with those.
I I call them the gateway or the

foot in the door because it
could be OK.

I I like woody kind of thing.
Like I like red wine aged in

wood.
I mean like this very strong

kind of flavours.
And then all of a sudden I know

already what kind of drinks you
may like.

If you're a rum drinker or you
call yourself a rum drinker, I

know that you have probably like
a sweet tooth because rum is

wheat compared to whiskey, which
is not that sweet.

But then maybe if I know that
you're into rum, what I would do

is that I would either offer you
a bourbon if I want to trade you

into the whiskey category
because I know it's sweeter

because there is maize.
Or like maybe I would take a

whiskey that has been aged in
Ram casks.

There is that Ram element to the
whiskey that makes it smoother.

That's how I play with with my
friends when we go out and where

we want to have a taste in your
stuff.

So for example, like, I give you
a personal example, like a

whiskey I got introduced by, I
think it was like lavro, like a

Smokey.
I lay whiskey, Scotch, whiskey.

Then I was trading by the
whiskey sour.

And then I was like, I don't
like whiskey, but it's not that

I didn't like whiskey.
I didn't like sour.

Then I realized it takes some
time, It takes some thinking to

be done to know yourself.
No.

And you know your palate,
because I'm a Negroni drinker.

A friend of mine said, why don't
you have a Blvd. which is

basically like a Negroni.
So you have the vermouth, red

vermouth, which is wheat.
You have a bitter, like a body,

like a red bitter.
And then you have a gin with

Negroni.
But then the Boulevardier, you

basically switch the gin and you
put the bourbon or a whiskey in

it.
So now for me that is very smart

because you know, two out of the
three elements that go into the

dream.
If I give you a neat, drama

whiskey, you will.
But if I give you a little bit

of whiskey in a drink that
you're used to drink, you will

get used to it slowly because it
would be like 4 CL, 2CL1CL or

one ounce and it won't be like a
A4 drink or something.

And this is how you people into
the category by being focused on

the niche and on an occasion
because it's like focus on that

cocktail.
You can be specific as that

cocktail like Campari is is a
typical example.

They've been advertising Negroni
since ever the deadline was

there is no Negroni without
Campari.

Super easy.
Because that's true.

Because they were the bitter
that I invented them that.

And they made a very sharp
choice and they made it very

easy for the consumer to
remember.

Exactly.
In Europe, everybody drinks

Negroni.
Like I've been seeing that

advert all over the place and
now everybody pretends to be a

Negroni drinker.
But I know that some people have

been starting to drink it like a
year ago.

And The thing is that Campari
has never changed the strategy.

It's not because nobody was
drinking Negroni.

They didn't advertise Nagatoni
anymore.

It's OK, let's change.
Let's do something else.

Because people don't like
Nagatoni, and Nagatoni is not

trendy.
And this is the crucial.

Thing, Yeah, all of what you're
saying are learnings that can be

transported to any category.
And a lot of it is what I say as

well in a different context and
you're talking about it in the

context of alcohol, but it's
exactly the same marketing

principles.
And I'm just wondering, going

back to what you were saying
earlier, I'm thinking I always

opt for an old fashioned
whiskey.

And I'm thinking, I'm wondering
if it's that if, if, if I like

that because of the sweet and
the orange or is it really

because of the whiskey if the
meat whiskey I don't like but

old fashioned I do.
So maybe it's just meat and the

orange.
Exactly.

And then the Old Fashioned, for
example, can be done with rum as

well.
You can have a rum Old Fashioned

and you could even try, because
then rum would be sweeter.

And then if you like it more
than you will see what do you

actually like.
And this is again another point

like the Old Fashioned is a
great example of trading people

into whiskey because of the
sugar Element.

See, very easy to drink like
compared to a whiskey, to any

kind of whiskey.
When you think about that, then

how to play and then it's OK
What's with element I'm going to

put in to balance the sourness
or the Peter and then you can

play Because otherwise then
cocktail would be just like

pouring stuff into a glass.
That doesn't make any sense.

It would be either too strong or
too weak.

Or if you wouldn't put like a
apple juice and pineapple juice

and orange juice into a glass,
no, it wouldn't make sense.

You just have something random
as a juice.

OK.
One more question for you Chris,

which is can a brand work across
generation?

For example, an expensive
whiskey which has very heavy

smoky notes.
Would it be fair to say that if

you were to not think of the
consumer as specific demographic

segments, which is not divide
them by such and such age, such

gender, living in blah blah blah
cities, blah.

If you were to not use that
stereotypical gender demographic

classification, would a brand
come to you and say, Dear Chris,

I want my brand to have appeal
across generations so it doesn't

feel like the old daddy brand or
it doesn't feel like the young

teeny bopper brand.
I want my brand to have appeal

across generations, whether it's
someone just out of college

equally, someone sitting at the
study with a cigar in his mouth.

Actually, this is very
interesting because I discussed

this.
I had a presentation at Bar

Convent in Berlin, which is the
biggest experience fair in

Europe probably in the world.
And we were talking about the

title was Demystifying Gen.
Z.

My take on that one, because I'm
not really a big fan of this

kind of like Gen.
Z, Gen.

X and millennials and so on.
We always say like it takes 20

years to make an overnight
success.

Ultimately 20 years is a
generation.

So it depends when you start
your brands.

Of course you would probably
chances are that you're not

starting exactly when a new
generation is starting or when

it when a new generation is
turning 18 or 21, whatever the

legal thinking age is.
But for me ultimately goes back

to what we were saying before
about the Phobos and the niche

and the target occasion.
So if you are talking about a

specific occasion, it doesn't
matter who wants to enter that

occasion.
Of course a certain occasion may

be skewed towards certain
demographics, but ultimately

again it's about the taste
profile.

For example, like it's to your
point like it's smoky age risky.

The barriers would be that it's
probably expensive and it's very

strong in ABV and possibly in
taste profile.

So a younger person may be put
off by one or old or or all

those elements because OK, they
may not be rich, but it could be

OK.
I have a rich father and he's

drinking that and every once in
a while it tells me that I can

open that bottle and drink it
with them.

In that sense, in a 22 year old
person may be able to drink that

thing because of the price point
is fine and because it's not

paying for it and the taste for
body is fine because it's

getting used to it from a
younger age.

So in that element you make it
across generation.

But the importance is not to
alienate people, because

ultimately if the occasion is
ultimately about, I don't know,

indulgence in a small group of
friends sitting in a relaxed

environment, in a low tempo kind
of environment, then all

generations are welcome into
that.

It's a little bit like with
cars, OK, I may like BMWs in

some I was a child.
It doesn't mean that I will buy

A5 series when I'm a teen, I
mean by when I'm 50.

But then either you make
something that is more

accessible because maybe there
is an element that has a easier

taste profile on the same brand
that appeal to people with the

lighter taste profile, not
younger people.

For me it's not about the age,
is about that.

Probably a younger person
doesn't have palate that is as

developed as an older person,
but it could be this already.

And then if you take an Indian
person that is so used to

spiciness, maybe much more
ahead.

Or a German person is not used
to spicy food.

So it's not about the age, it's
about the palate ultimately.

Very interesting.
And like you earlier said, that

there may be a way of recruiting
this person even making dough,

let's say a heavy, smoky whiskey
with the right kind of cocktail.

Absolutely, absolutely.
And then again, it goes back to

price points because maybe a
very expensive whiskey doesn't

make sense to put it in a
cocktail because of the price

point, because the cocktail will
cost you crazy money, but then

you can use it as a modifier.
So for example, sometimes what I

do is that I like, I just ask
the bartender to put very tiny,

like an half an ounce of a very
expensive peated whiskey in my

drink so that the body is a
regular whiskey.

But then I like to add a little
dash just to give some flavor

because I like the smokiness of
that whiskey, for example.

And then maybe they do it to me
as a favor if I'm in a bar that

I know or they just charge me
like a very little.

It's not that I didn't ask for 2
ounces of that expensive

whiskey.
I ask for half and half an

ounce.
So you can create also with

those things and make it more
affordable to you very.

Interesting.
It almost sounds like this

category is so much similar to
fragrances, isn't it?

Because you have to have very
discerning abilities, of course,

at a certain age, but it's also
about a certain kind of a drink

for a certain mood.
Because, which actually brings

me to this question, Chris, is
alcohol really functional or is

it entirely recreational?
So I wouldn't really call it

functional, as you say, but
there is an element of flavor

that could make it in the sense
that if I want to have it as a

pairing to food, it becomes
functional because I want

something that complements my
food.

So in that moment it becomes
functional.

Then if I'm having a Parsi and
it's at 2:00 AM in a cloud, of

course it's recreational in that
sense.

But then it could be functional
in the sense that if you try to

do it, if you go to a Michelin
star restaurant and you have a

wine pairing, I would argue that
the wine dairy is functional in

that moment because it's
recreational.

But if you give me the wrong
wine with that dish, it would

give me a totally wrong
experience.

Which means that this is a
category that requires

tremendous amount of education.
It does.

Going back to your point about
Target personas and different

kind of people, I see it myself.
I have a lot of bottles of

alcohol and it depends on who's
coming for dinner and I take

different bottles out.
It doesn't matter your level of

education, but if you're keen to
learn, I'm willing to let you

try some of my expensive stuff.
But again, if you tell me that

your planet is not ready, I may
take something that is.

It doesn't mean that it's bad,
but it's more appropriate for

you.
Because if I give you a 26 years

old whiskey and you say I've
never tried whiskey, I'm

basically firming your college.
Like I'm giving you the worst

experience you've ever had in
your life.

But if you are, like, I love
whiskey, but I can't afford

expensive whiskeys.
And I always drink this and this

and then I get a picture of what
type of whiskeys you like.

I know you can't afford special
ones.

And then I say money.
Try this one.

You would like it.
Well, it's a different occasion.

But then if it's a big party,
I'm not going to say I'm going

to lock my clothes up.
I don't want people to just grab

your bottle and pour in half a
glass of of expensive whiskey

because they they wouldn't even
notice what they're drinking.

And and this is the thing that
I'm the same exact person.

But then if I go to a BBQ, I
will bring a certain bottle of

whiskey or rum.
And if I go to a nice dinner and

I know you you're having
expensive wines for dinner, then

I'm say I'll take care of the
whiskey and I'll bring you some

nice bottle of money.
Wow.

Gosh, that sounds it's very
complex.

It's the ultimate is very
simple.

Like the thinking behind is very
complex.

I agree.
But ultimately when you distill

it down into a very simple
strategy and you say, OK, we

have to go to these three types
of bars and restaurants.

We are targeting this cocktail.
We're targeting this drinking

occasion.
Go and just talk about that all

the time.
Ring and I love that, and I love

that I'm a great proponent of
that.

Exactly what you said, even
about the company.

I'm a Greek proponent of that,
but have you heard this?

I'm sure you would have heard
this from your clients.

Dear Chris, you build the brand
for me, but I also need sales

starting tomorrow.
This is one of the challenges

that I get sometimes when I
write on LinkedIn every day,

like some people's like, oh man,
this stuff is too slow and it's

first of all to build it.
Top down may be perceived

faster, but you're busily
burning millions.

Exactly.
So building a brand slowly is

hard.
Building a brand fast is hard on

on your wallet.
Exactly.

And the other thing is it's
finding the middle.

So what are we were talking
about about at the beginning the

the sales and marketing
together.

So the way I crack that is that
I say OK you have some fancy

bars for example, but then you
have some very regular bars and

restaurants that are suitable
for the occasion that are image

LED.
So if you have the matrix again

on the Y axis you have image and
premium Ness or however you want

to call it.
And then on the other end you've

got like the volume, the Y axe
on the on the premium Ness kind

of thing.
You may want to approach only

the 50 best bars and all the
fancy bars but they will not

bring anything.
But then there are a lot of bars

and restaurants that they can
buy it at the right price, at

the right price point.
So extend the distribution to

those if they can guarantee a
certain rotation, so a certain

velocity of the brand, like a
sales rotation.

There is nothing wrong in
selling to a regular restaurant.

That is nothing fancy.
But they can.

It's suitable that occasion and
everybody after dinner are going

to have a drink and they're
going to have a whiskey, a drama

whiskey or an amato or a bitter
or an after being or drink

because people are into that.
So go to those places and that's

where you get the money to
reinvest in the fancy places

because people just look at it
very selectively and always say

it's not a pyramid in
segmentation, it's a square,

it's a rectangular shape because
you need to account that element

of volume.
Because I I, I had zillions

fights and I was the guy that
was wrong.

I was the market here in the
ivory tower back in the days

saying don't enlarge, don't
extend, distribute.

You have to be all in gold
outlet and gold and silver and

don't go to bronze outlets and
so on.

But ultimately it's not about
the distribution, it's about the

rotation with growing the
distribution.

So if I can go to five average
bars, and those five average

bars guarantee a certain
rotation of the product, there's

nothing wrong with that.
They actually matter than a

super fancy club that has a
bottle of mine getting dusty on

the shelf because nobody drinks
it because the occasion is

wrong.
I know what you said, Chris.

This is something that's so
close to my heart and I remember

having seen it somewhere.
There's a statistic that says

that don't bury.
No, there's very expensive

champagne that it sells the most
from shelves of Walmart.

One wouldn't expect one wouldn't
expect, that an economy super

chain like Walmart would sell
the maximum number of bottles of

this brand, but it does.
Which goes back to exactly what

you said.
You can still be the most

expensive champagne and still be
perceived to be the best

champagne in the world, but that
doesn't mean that you sit in

that one shop in that corner and
collect dust, which is the most

premium bar in the world and and
the only bar that exists in the

world.
You can still be in the Walmart

without any risk to your equity
and bring in the sales.

Because after all, that's what
we want.

Absolutely.
And there let's say the

important element on that is
that you need to keep top parts

of those outlets that the first
buyers, historical buyers while

you grow distribution.
So there's nothing wrong in in

selling zillions in Walmart as
long as you are still relevant

and you are not alienating your
first buyers.

I always say I focus on the most
crucial 1000 cases of of

products in a city.
Because the the 1st 1000 cases

that you will sell, you need to
repeatedly sell those 1000 cases

even when you're selling
1,000,000 cases.

If you forget about those first
1000, that's where brand

declined.
Very nice because that 1000 is

creating the aspiration and
value for the balance 100,000 to

sell.
So make sure that 1000 is fairly

protected and that keeps going
to the right consumer.

And that is the crucial thing.
So to the previous point, for

example, doc and party doesn't
matter that maybe people drink

it with orange juice or with
whatever they want to drink it.

As long as you communicate the
Negroni, but you know the top

bars, you're only talking about
Negroni.

And the perception will be that
everybody only drinks Negroni.

But it doesn't mean that you
cannot drink it with orange or

with an orange slice, or with
tonic or with water or everybody

can drink it however they want,
but you have to be single

mindedly specific on OK, this is
what I communicate and the dompe

rignon, they would never
communicate.

Or we are in Walmart and we're
the biggest selling.

We are in top bar in deli and we
are in the top restaurants.

And then it will have fancy
people drinking it.

But the occasion will be
specific and that is the crucial

thing.
Never When you grow the brand,

don't alienate your first, they
say, your first 1000 fans.

You have to keep being
interested into your brand no

matter what you do.
Ultimately when you grow at

scale, because if you grow, of
course it's like an iPhone.

It is not that I don't want
anybody else to have an iPhone

because I I have an iPhone and I
bought it and it's expensive.

I don't mind that if all the
world will have an iPhone, I

will be happy as long as it
works great.

The experience is great.
That is the ultimate elements of

building brands.
Yes, beautifully said.

Fantastic, Chris.
This is great.

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