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Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Over:
Speaker 2:Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 2:This episode continues the previous conversation. What you just said was so powerful and is something we talked about a little bit with Doctor. Tema as well, but also in Laura Brown's Not the Price of Admission book, talking about interpersonal violence and what used to be called domestic violence, but we call it interpersonal because it's more inclusive and more honest, I think, about a lot of different ways that can show up. But one of the things in that pattern has to do with isolation. And so it doesn't matter whether it's that hyper need meeting, which is still not the same words as you just said, but that hyper need meeting or not, if it is without choice and without community, that is not healthy and it is isolated from community, which just as mammals, that's not good for us.
Speaker 2:Let's back up for listeners. Go ahead. How would you explain or define interpersonal violence and then sort of speak to that dynamic that you just shared?
Speaker 1:That is wow. That's a loaded question. Man, there's, like, textbook definitions of interpersonal violence. Right? And so I'm trying to think about, like, how would I frame it from I I guess but I wanna go back to the statement that I made earlier that all behavior is an attempt at meeting a need.
Speaker 1:Yes. That includes behavior that's abusive. And, I'm gonna use a a clinical example that came up recently. So working with a client, leaving an interpersonally violent marriage. And the the the the source of the need in both of their behaviors was actually kinda the same.
Speaker 1:We realized of, like, that the behaviors were being driven by that sense that I'm not good enough. And so for her, I'm not good enough meant I need to cater my behavior to showing everyone around me that I actually do have worth and value. But my experience of that worth and value is contingent upon acknowledgment from the outside. And once someone acknowledges it, it's like, okay. But that still doesn't feel true because my nervous system doesn't believe that it's true because there are still people who don't acknowledge it.
Speaker 1:So now I just need to shift my focus to the people that, you know, haven't acknowledged it. And a lot of times, ends up creating the the framework that in in needing it to be acknowledged, they're they're putting their own worth in the hands of someone else. Her ex husband, also from his family of origin, had developed the I'm not good enough for very different reasons. But the way that he learned to respond to that or the way that he learned to sort of protect himself from that was if I can show that I'm consistently superior to others, then then there can't be something wrong with me. Or if there's something wrong with me, it's at least is not not as bad as what's wrong with everybody else.
Speaker 1:And so he developed this pattern that was hypercritical and that was belittling and that was, you know, constantly making fun. And, you know, the need that he is trying to meet in that is the need to not feel like, you know, there's something inherently wrong with him. And at its core, that's often that one of the core vulnerabilities we see behind what we would describe as sort of narcissistic abuse or narcissistic behaviors is that need to well, I can't be fundamentally bad if I'm better than you. And so when you put those two things together, right, the the relationship is is at least emotionally violent if also not sometimes physically violent depending on, you know, the the details of circumstances because, you know, he needs to belittle her as part of his need meeting, and she needs to show him that she's that she actually does have some sort of worth and value. And at any moment, we're just when she's maybe like, you know what?
Speaker 1:I think I need to just kind of throw in you know, fold the cards and walk away. He will show up in a way that is showing who he would have the potential to be if that's not how he engaged in his need meeting. And that brings her right back in because she has values that are being co opted around, like, seeing who people have the potential to be. And and that value is is a beautiful value that I see so much in people, especially people that have different kinds of early childhood trauma. And it ends up getting co opted because of this feeling of, like, I can see who you have the potential to be.
Speaker 1:And if I just wait it out long enough, you'll be able to be that, and then we'll be able to go forward. But it's like, well, you're not in the relationship with who he has the potential to be. You're in the relationship with who he is right now, and that's just what's true right now. But it it it exploits that, you know, her need meeting dynamic. It exploits her values and how they get hijacked because I should back up.
Speaker 1:When I talked earlier about, you know, there is no distress without an underlying value being hijacked, the the consequence of of trauma generally is a hijacking of our values. So if I have a value that says, I I I really value kindness and compassion and seeing people with with with dignity and with fairness, the trauma hijacking, is and so if I don't do everything that is expected of me, that means that I'm not being kind, that I'm not being compassionate, I'm failing my values. Well, that's not true. But that's what that's what feels true. Right?
Speaker 1:It feels true that if I'm not doing this perfectly, then, then I'm betraying my own values. So, like, those are the kinds of dynamics that end getting interwoven into what become interpersonally violent situations and how people end up staying in interpersonally violent situations. It's not it's not just about, you know, comfort or familiarity. It's not just about, safety seeking. Like, at a fundamental value or at a fundamental level, the values that we have and how those values are being hijacked is part of the glue that keeps us stuck in interpersonal situations that are not good for Wow.
Speaker 1:And that's one of the reasons that that glue is more powerful. The power of the glue that keeps us stuck is our own values that are being hijacked.
Speaker 2:How do we unhijack ourselves?
Speaker 1:Yes. So this is where I do a lot of wondering and curiosity about the assumptions that our brains are making and where we learned those from. Sometimes the assumptions, like I said, come from our family of origin. Sometimes it comes from, you know, our our society or what I call it's just what's in the water. Right?
Speaker 1:Like, fish don't know that they live in water. We don't know that we're consistently being socially programmed by our society based off of what we are exposed to, the the values that we're told we're supposed to have, all of those different things. And so I'm often asking questions like, okay. Like, where where did you learn that? Or who who's who made that rule, and who does that rule serve?
Speaker 1:So if somebody says, like, well, but if if I leave them, I'm giving up on them. Okay? Who told you that? You know? Or or or who touched you that?
Speaker 1:Or where did you learn that? And and then sometimes when we go if we're able to find kind of the source of that message, then we get to say, okay. If the bad things hadn't happened, do you think that that's conclusion you would have chosen for yourself? Do you think that's the expression of your values that you would have chosen for yourself if they hadn't been hijacked?
Speaker 2:So in this scenario
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If I value caring for myself and others with safety as expressed through attunement, then if I am in harm's way and my values are being hijacked, then leaving is still the compassionate and correct response for me in that scenario.
Speaker 1:Potentially. Mhmm. And I say potentially because I think one of the things, at least in the clinician role when we're working with interpersonally violent situations, is that sometimes we can replace our clients knowing with our need to protect. And there is no interpersonally violent situation that is not incredibly complex, and I really try to focus on starting with all the things that are true at the same time. A really straightforward example of that would be if somebody is in an interpersonally violent situation, and I'm working with them, and I'm really wanting to, you know, bolster their confidence.
Speaker 1:I'm wanting to convince them that they deserve better than this, and they should go, and they should get out. And then, you know, they're like, you know what? You're right. I'm gonna get out. And then the next week, they don't show up for their appointment.
Speaker 1:And then the week after that, they don't show up for their appointment, and I can't get ahold of them. And it turns out that them leaving was actually not a safe thing to do at that moment in time because they were perceived to have known too much or leaving like, exposed them to different levels of of violence, and now I don't have a client to treat. Because my need to protect them in the way that I understanding and the wisdom of what they have done up to this point to keep themselves safe by staying. And, again, that doesn't mean we want people to stay in situations that are harmful for them, but it does mean that we don't allow our need to protect them to make us throw out the complexity of a situation. And that the most compassionate thing that we as clinicians can do is to help that person connect with their knowing, their wisdom, their knowledge, and and what are the actual options that are available to them.
Speaker 1:And if if getting out is something that they want to do, how do we create this the the context that that allow for that to happen safely?
Speaker 2:Wow. Recognizing this in the oversimplified, obviously, example of if I, as the client, decide for myself, then that really could be congruent with my values. But as a care provider, as a therapist, I don't necessarily know that because there's so many other factors and it's really important. They come to I wanna I don't wanna use the word resolve. That's not the right way.
Speaker 2:But in English, the the path that they take for that need meeting, Like, they're the ones who have the variables. So what their needs are, what the variables are impacting those needs, we don't ever know that for another person.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. And and another one of my perspectives is that there is wisdom in everything we do and everything we know to some degree. Something that we are doing may not necessarily be helping us achieve specific goals that we have, but that doesn't mean that there's not wisdom somewhere. And I'm always trying to start every, all the ways that I'm thinking about what someone is telling me, I'm constantly trying to stay anchored to that curiosity about what makes sense about this and what is the wisdom of this.
Speaker 1:And in the scenario that I just talked about, there is wisdom in staying. Staying may also be creating a barrier to all sorts of other goals, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't also have wisdom. And when we blow through the wisdom of what has been working, because if it wasn't working, it wouldn't be, you know, their behavior that works gets reinforced. If we just blow through that and go immediately to, oh, but look, you're not you're not reaching this goal, that's when we risk replacing our need for the person to be at that goal with our need to, first and foremost, understand the wisdom of what they're already doing. And when we think through the way that our western medical disease pathology oriented lens affects that, all of our training in the West in, mental health is about identify the pathology, diagnose the pathology, create a treatment plan for the pathology, and then go after the pathology.
Speaker 1:And and so the goal is the outcome in that model, but we're we're plowing through the wisdom and what they're already doing because nobody knows how to keep, keep them safe better than them. And that is evidenced by the fact that they've survived 100% of the things that have happened to them.
Speaker 2:I think we hear that from clients or I've even said those things in my own life where they will literally say to us in a session, it doesn't make sense for me to leave or it doesn't make sense for me to stay in that. Like, they'll literally phrase that in English. I've heard people say that.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. And that that may totally be true. That may also be evidence that there are options that they haven't been able to consider or that they haven't been allowed to consider. Like, one of the things about, like, trauma hijacking or sort of that, like, the program and the scripts that create the programming that we have about what becomes true about us is if there are only two options, that's trauma programming. There are always more than two options for every possible thing that we face in life.
Speaker 1:And in a lot of times, one of the options is do nothing. But if we are limiting our substance, either this or that, we are in our limbic trauma risk. That is trauma level mean.
Speaker 2:Yes. So I first heard this actually from Clarissa Pinkola Estes from oh, everyone's so active outside today. You have gotten all of the vehicles.
Speaker 1:I am creating an energetic magnet.
Speaker 2:Well done. The author of Women Who Run With The Wolves says this, that there's always at least four responses of yes, no, not yet, and I'm still thinking. And that I'm sure, I mean, there's more too, but I love how that was my first introduction to everything has something more than the binary response. And when you're saying, I just wanna repeat it to make sure folks heard it. When we have a, I have to stay or go, when we have a binary, yes, no, do this or that, I can't, or I have to, anytime we get those binary things that is coming from the limbic system, sometimes memory time, but even in now time, the limbic system of that conditioning or you're seeing programming of this is how it has to be.
Speaker 2:It is very shiny, happy.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And and when I say that, you know, the making sure that we're attending to the wisdom. It's also true that just because there's always going to be wisdom in what something is doing, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're doing the thing that they would have chosen for themselves or that they are doing the thing that is most aligned with how they wanna be in the world. And and so it's important that, like, yes, we're acknowledging the wisdom. We're seeing the wisdom, but then we're also going with, okay.
Speaker 1:What else is true? What are other options that are available to us? What are the values that we have that that that play some sort of a role in in what's in what's happening. And I and I love that you clarified the, you know, the conditioning programming piece. I just wanna quickly say the difference when I use those words of what I'm referring to.
Speaker 1:So for me, conditioning is the behaviors that have been reinforced through one way or another, and the programming is the stories that we tell ourselves as a result of those situation. And that's the distinction. So when I'm talking about programming versus conditioning, conditioning is I've been conditioned to, you know, to people please because I've learned that that is part of how I stay safe. And the programming is when I'm people pleasing and when I'm, you know, putting my you know, putting other people first that if if they're still upset with me, that means that I'm wrong. Right?
Speaker 1:It's the programming. It's the script that we've attached to how we've explained what we've experienced. And there's different you know, peep different people will use those words in different ways or or in different, you know, context. But for me, that's primarily what I'm talking about, that the conditioning is the the behaviors that get reinforced that have been connected to our adaptive need for survival, and the programming is the the the sense of the meaning that we've made out of those situations and what that says about us and who we are.
Speaker 2:I appreciate this so much. The example that's coming up for me is when we have colonized Western therapy and I am super dissociated. The conditioning I want to see if I can apply this. Conditioning is I need to get grounded. I need to use my coping skills.
Speaker 2:I need to I need to whatever I need to do. The programming is that I'm failing. I am sick. I am doing it wrong. I'm a bad person.
Speaker 2:I am dysfunctional because I'm using maladaptive whatever, whatever. Right? But when I like when I was in Africa and we talked to people there about dissociation or when I'm with my tribe and we talk to people about dissociation there are these concepts about our spirits wandering off. And what I understand from our conversation today is that when I'm dissociated or like if I liberate myself from the conditioning the programming that comes from that conditioning and bring myself back home to myself, the the authentic story I want to tell myself is that I may be dissociating, what I experience is my spirit wandering, and the message about that is that I have gone too far from my values outside of safety. So what I do about it looks very different because I may not need to feel my feet on the floor.
Speaker 2:I may need to get myself to safety. I may not need to stay. I may need to run. I may not need to avoid. I may need to sit with it.
Speaker 2:But what are my values? Who am I? And what is hijacking or disrupting the process of congruence with that? Or to see that and respond to that myself, attunement with myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That that is I think that's exactly right. And and, you know, I I always giggle in in the clinical psychology world when we throw the word functioning around because what does that even mean? And when you look at, like, ways that we assess functioning and everything else, and it's like, okay. Functioning has become a word that we use to determine people's capacity to behave in a way that is expected of them.
Speaker 1:And so I find that to actually have pretty little clinical relevance when we're talking about how people can be their their, you know, most authentic selves in the world because dissociation is is a functional ability. It it it it it serves a function. And I I always talk about dissociative abilities, and people are like, well, what do you mean? Like, dissociative abilities? You know, I, like, I I hate my dissociation.
Speaker 1:Well, the example that you just gave is a really good example of when did your dissociative abilities engage for a values based reason, or did they engage outside of your consent or choice because your nervous system perceived a threat? And so off you went. And and that's not inherently pathological. Your experience in the world would be so much different than it is now if you didn't have those dissociative abilities. And so the goal is not, okay, how can we be as grounded and in our bodies at all time as possible, and we've got no dissociation?
Speaker 1:The the goal is how do I how am I as agentic as possible in in matching the abilities I have to the context that I'm in based off of what my values are as much and as often as possible.
Speaker 2:The way I've experienced this over the last couple of years is these side quests on the podcast that were about sexuality or about religious trauma or these things where it was absolutely necessary for me fundamentally to who I am, absolute value to me to gather those parts of myself so I could move forward in a more whole kind of experience, including all parts of myself, I could no longer move forward in my life without those parts of myself. Other people, not everybody, but a lot of other people were like, I'm not gonna listen to you anymore because you're talking about this, or I'm not gonna listen to you anymore because you're talking about that. So their values were different. And to them, it looked like I had using English off the rails, off track, off the beaten path, off. It was wrong.
Speaker 2:But for me and my values in gathering myself up, it was necessary.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. That the the example that just came into my head as you were saying that is because, you know, the other thing with dissociation is it's not always a response to something bad happening or being trapped. Sometimes we are trapped on purpose. Like, you know, let's say that I am invited to someone's wedding, and, I have a history of, you know, sexuality based religious trauma.
Speaker 1:And it's really important to me to be able to show up to this person that is, you know, important in my life and to show my support for them. And we get to the sermon or the homily, and I really do not feel like sitting through a whole bunch of, you know, very heteronormative language and and, discussion about, you know, straight marriage and all the things and, like, okay. I'm gonna spend some time on the inside. Boy, is the this time that I really value having some dissociative abilities? Yes.
Speaker 1:That's not that's not pathological. That's actually allowing you to engage your values in the world because being able to be in a church and be okay would have been one of the barriers to attending your your friend's wedding, given that history. And I'm sure that there are a lot of people that would say, oh, well, that's, you know, that's a pathological choice. And, like, well, if you heal from the religious trauma, then it shouldn't still be distressing. Okay.
Speaker 1:Maybe.
Speaker 2:Right. I actually found it really freeing and found compassion for myself in that there were some situations I found myself in the last couple of years where people were like, how did you even get stuck in that? And how did it you take so long to get yourself out of it? And it's like, well, it's not like I don't have those shame spirals myself. I don't really need your help with that.
Speaker 2:And, also, it was because I was asking those questions, and I was doing those side quests, and I was still learning. But when the same thing happened of I can no longer try this and include all of myself, then I already had learned the value of I'm not leaving parts of me behind. So then it's when okay. So I need to leave this. I need to reestablish safety for myself because the value I've already learned is not leaving myself behind.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And in this particular context, that may be at conflict with the value of wanting to show up for your friend.
Speaker 2:Right. Wow. So many layers.
Speaker 1:And I I think one of the things that I hope people are hearing is the fundamental difference between having these conversations from the perspective of what are people doing wrong versus having the conversation from the perspective of, like, what is right about what we're already doing? What is the wisdom and what we already know? And how do we how do we try to claim more of that for ourselves? Because the again, the the the the lie of clinical psychology is that the absence of symptoms is the presence of well-being. No.
Speaker 1:It's not. I can get rid of every symptom that you ever have, and your life can still be crappy. Like, yeah, they it's that the absence of symptoms is not the presence of well-being. And and it's not just about how do I, you know, get rid of these uncomfortable things that I have or these really you know, and that's not to minimize how, you know, different mental health difficulties can be absolutely debilitating. If not at all absolutely, there are mental health difficulties that we have that are app that are debilitating.
Speaker 1:And they're no less debilitating if we also betray ourselves and leave ourselves behind because we've only learned how to frame things based off of what's wrong with us.
Speaker 2:Right. Yes. That. And I think I felt like I had the last couple of years for me involved leaving my family, divorcing because I could not be lesbian married to a man, and working through religious trauma. But then when I found myself in situations where I had worked so hard worked so hard to find those parts of me, to reinclude, reclaim, claim those parts of me, I could not then leave other parts.
Speaker 2:Like, I wasn't there to trade parts out.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Right? Like, it so so
Speaker 1:Your your parts aren't a hockey team that are just gonna, like, change lines. You know?
Speaker 2:Right. So so when I was exploring or trying or what can I engage with that's helpful or how am I learning or growing or trying out life, that is beautiful? I am open to that. That is within my values. But when it comes to, okay.
Speaker 2:Parts of me are excluded. That's not okay with me anymore. That is a social contract I have rewritten for myself.
Speaker 1:Wow. And that's, you know, for for you and for what standing in your authenticity looks like. That means if I can't bring my whole self, then I may not be interested.
Speaker 2:This conversation will be continued on the next episode. Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing. One of the ways we practice this is in community Together.
Speaker 2:The link for the community is in the show notes. We look forward to seeing you there while we practice caring for ourselves, caring for our family, and participating with those who also care for community. And remember, I'm just a human, not a therapist for the community. I'm not there for dating, and not there to be shiny happy. Less shiny, actually.
Speaker 2:I'm there to heal too. That's what peer support is all about. Being human together. So yeah, sometimes we'll see you there.