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Have you ever looked at a situation you’re facing in utter disbelief and thought, "How will I ever get over this?" Lysa TerKeurst understands. After years of heartbreak and emotional trauma, she realized it’s not about just getting over hard circumstances but learning how to work through what she has walked through. Now, she wants to help you do the same. That’s why Lysa teamed up with her personal, licensed professional counselor, Jim Cress, alongside the Director of Theological Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, to bring you "Therapy & Theology." While Lysa, Jim and Joel do tackle some really hard topics, you’ll soon find they're just three friends having a great conversation and learning from each other along the way.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Welcome to Episode 2 in this season of Therapy & Theology, where we are talking about self-awareness. In the last episode, we really answered the question, or we tackled the question, "Why do I do what I don't want to do?" And this episode today is a great follow-up; it's what's really driving this behavior. In other words, what's the thing underneath the thing? And that really means, what's my motivation? Because I've found so many times: It's not necessarily the thing that we're dealing with; it's really about the thing driving the thing. So we want to ask the question, "What is the real motivation?"
So today of course I have with me, Dr. Joel Muddamalle and Jim Cress. I am really excited about today's episode, and I would like to kick off reading a couple of Bible verses. So the first verse that I want to read is from James 1:14-15, "But each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death" (NIV). And then I want to read one other verse, and it's James 4, starting in verse 1, "What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures" (James 4:1-3, NIV).
So the reason that I wanted to start off with those Bible verses is because I think it's time for me to get honest; I think it's time for all of us to get honest. What's the thing really driving the thing that I don't want to keep doing. And yet I do keep doing it. In this whole series on becoming more self-aware, I think, it's really important for us to look at what our motivations really are. Asking the question, "What is my ultimate motivation?" And I'll answer that question for me: My ultimate motivation is life, not death. And so I think these verses are so important because it says desire gives birth to sin and sin gives birth to death. And so I have to pay attention to my desires, my motives, my motivations. Because my ultimate desire is I want life. I want a life that honors God. I want a life that truly loves people and a life that is fulfilling and purposeful.
So if that is my ultimate desire, then my motivations have to line up with that desire so that it will take me to the life that I really want. Otherwise, I could spend my life on cheap thrills —
Jim Cress:
Absolutely.
Lysa TerKeurst:
— temporary pleasure, people-pleasing, just so that I get what I want. And focusing on me, myself, my wants, my desires. And basically, if I do that, if I live a life that is opposite of what God wants for me, it's pointing my life in the direction of a very unfulfilling life, a death life.
Jim Cress:
By the way, imagine at the end of that, that we all know, and you all know as you're listening or watching, so what does it profit Lysa or Joel or Jim if we gain the entire world? What we think would be life or safety or autonomy or what have you? What is going to profit us in the moment, the ROI there, the return on our investment if we were to gain our entire world but in the end lose our own soul, and let's use that word psuché there; I lose myself pursuing these other pleasures, pursuing these other paths that are not paths for me. In my desire, on a daily basis, barring from Paul and Galatians, I really want to walk not live. Peripateo is the Greek word there as you know; I want to walk by the means and the agency of the Holy Spirit and not in the means and agency of the flesh. Some days I'm going to be in the flesh, means where I live at times.
But my goal, my vision, is Lord, what would You have me do? And how do I, walking Your path and walking in the spirit, not in the flesh.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, the preposition pair is actually beside or alongside. So that peripateo is you're walking alongside with God.
Jim Cress:
I love that.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
With the Holy Spirit. Lysa, is it OK if I do a little bit of theological commentary on what you said?
Lysa TerKeurst:
Please do.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
'Cause I think it's so good. And I never thought about it this way, so I'm scrambling, writing down notes right here. You said your goal is life, right, not death? So let's think about it this way: What is life? Well, life is union with Christ. John Chapter 1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life ..." (John 1:1-4, NIV) —
Lysa TerKeurst:
Life.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
— And that life was the life of men.
Jim Cress:
The life of men.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Exactly, right? What is death? Well, death is the greatest consequence ... in that it is separation from Christ. It is to be apart from the living Christ. And so I —
Lysa TerKeurst:
And look, we can still have a beating heart and be walking around. I mean, obviously death is going to ... Eventually, we all ... our physical bodies all die. But I'm talking about living dead inside.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
That's right.
Jim Cress:
Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I want to live full of life inside.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah. That's so good. I just love that.
Jim Cress:
You know, when you talk about there ... you intrigued me, and I love this conversation with all of us. But you have those two Greek words there ... bios of life. And then zoe, the very essence of life.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Essence of life.
Jim Cress:
So I can have the bios, the biological life.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
The biological, yeah. It's so good.
Jim Cress:
And you just eloquently painted that. But the zoe inside me, the very essence of life, is I'm just dead man or dead woman walking. It's upset[ing] often that ... I'm just in a rut, and a rut is nothing but a grave with both ends knocked out of it. And how do I want to live? And today, really is the first day of the rest of your life. I want to “choose life”— there are two paths set before us: life, death ... blessing, cursing — “choose life, so that you and your children may live” (Deuteronomy 30:19). So wherever you are today? Today is a new day to someone to start choosing life.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I think, in order to do this, the exercise that I like to do is, I like to chase my decisions all the way down. I wrote about this exercise in my book, The Best Yes. And what it means is, OK, there's this desire in front of me ... and this desire in front of me, it may look good, seem good, taste good, feel good, smell good — whatever it is. So there's this desire in front of me, and let's say, I participate in that desire. And then if I participate in that desire, where then is it leading to next? And there's always a multiplicity to the decisions we make; it's never just isolated to this one decision. Because this decision will set our life on a pathway whether we realize it or not. And at first, it doesn't really feel like that much of a deviation from what we really want because this looks good, feels good, seems good, tastes good — whatever it is.
But over time, if it is leading us toward something that is not in alignment with God's goodness and what's really good for us, then we are not this thing. This decision today matters so much more than what we ever give it credit for. And I remember one time I did this exercise with ... it was actually with Chick-fil-A nugget sauce. Let's say this Chick-fil-A nugget sauce ... I think it costs like 25 cents or 50 cents, but for my brain, let's just say this Chick-fil-A sauce cost $1; it doesn't, but let's just say it cost $1. Every person that comes through the drive-through, if the worker is supposed to give one sauce because that's built into the cost of a sandwich or nugget or whatever, then their food costs will be right in line with whatever the cost of that sandwich is and what they charge.
But let's say that the workers start giving two sauces, that doesn't seem like that big of a deal. But if they're giving an extra sauce to every person that comes through the drive-through today, and they happen to give that extra sauce to a thousand customers, well that's a loss of $1,000 in one day. If they do the same thing the next day, $2,000. If they do the same thing in a week, $7,000. If they do that same thing for 10 months, you can see the multiplicity. So it started off with one little nugget sauce, no big deal. But it could wind up costing them so much. And so I like to think in my life, OK, I'm motivated because I want this. But if I don't pay attention and play this out, where's it ultimately going to take me? You can do the same thing with calories.
Jim Cress:
Oh, yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
It's like, OK, no big deal. I'm going to stop and get this coffee drink. I don't want to pick on Joel again because we pick on him so much.
Jim Cress:
Dude, Taco Bell, McDonald’s. Now, we're at Starbucks.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Which I do love me some Starbucks.
Jim Cress:
Or some promising fancy-pants coffee shop, knowing you.
Lysa TerKeurst:
OK, so let's say there's this new drink —
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yes.
Lysa TerKeurst:
— And it's like 200 calories, no big deal, right? Until you start getting it day after day after day after day. And I think I read somewhere, one pound of fat is 3,500 calories. So if you're adding this but not taking away the calories, and over time, you add 3,500 extra calories, well, then that's a pound. Another 3,500, another pound. And sometimes I think, we get through a year and all of a sudden, we're like, "Why am I 10 pounds, 15 pounds, 20 pounds heavier than what I want to be?" And if we chase that one decision all the way down and we think about it before that year passes, then we could save ourselves a lot of health risk, right?
Jim Cress:
Did you do this on purpose? Seriously, because this was a three-minute coaching exercise that some people would pay big money for. No kidding about what you just did from the Chick-fil-A sauces. I know you all are listening and watching out there, and she said it could be $7,000 because ... And Chick-fil-A's only open six days a week, so it'd be six [$6,000]. I know some of you purists —
Lysa TerKeurst:
Oh, God. So true.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Closed on Sunday.
Jim Cress:
You caught it; I do listen. But think about that, and the — [Crosstalk].
Lysa TerKeurst:
So true.
Jim Cress:
Well, the exponential thing of it adding up and what are we talking about at one level, self-awareness, and getting away from self-deception of just counting the costs and saying, “Little bit of this, little bit of this.” And that's why if you're at LAX and you're on a plane — it's been researched — and you get just two degrees off in the bad direction and you're trying to go to LaGuardia, you'll end up at BWI in Baltimore. So you've said this so well ... to have the self-awareness today, "Where am I off of track?" Some people go to a chiropractic once a week or more, and I say we need emotional, relational and spiritual chiropractic daily to get back in alignment. And you just had a beautiful exercise that ... do that self-inventory and say, "Am I out of alignment?" And we call that in therapy, don't we, I'm “incongruent,” incongruent with where I am. I'm out of alignment. OK, gentle, just get back in alignment.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And another reason, I think, this is so important to pay attention to is because there's a big difference between a mistake and a pattern of behavior that eventually will become what we're known for. So for example, I may make the mistake of being hot-tempered toward someone today. I may make the mistake of yelling or getting super-frustrated or whatever. So if that's a mistake, then it's not going to be what I'm known for. I can seek forgiveness; I can be repentant. I can decide that I'm going to really dig inside of myself, "Why did I get this way today?" and course correct. If, however, I'm hot-tempered today, and I yell at someone today, and I yell at someone tomorrow, and I yell at someone the next day and the next day and the next day. And before long I start to act like an angry person, then eventually, the reality is I become an angry person, right?
And so if we don't want to be known as an angry person or we don't want to be known for this kind of behavior or this kind of action, then we've got to start with it: “What is happening today, and why am I doing this?” And here are some things that I think will be good to weave into your consideration. There's internal motivations. “So why am I angry?” Let's just say ... I'm not typically an angry person; this an example. I'm sitting beside my therapist; he can testify. OK.
Jim Cress:
True.
Lysa TerKeurst:
So I do have issues though, lots of them. OK. And that's why we do Therapy & Theology by the way.
Jim Cress:
That was your original vision, for real.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Right? Joel brings the theology, you bring the therapy, and I just get free therapy sessions. It's really —
Jim Cress:
That's right. If you have a belly button, you have issues. Can we just be honest? There's no non-issue person —
Lysa TerKeurst:
Right.
Jim Cress:
— If you're alive.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yep.
Lysa TerKeurst:
So true. OK, so let's look at some of those internal motivations. For the example, like why are we being angry? Is it because we are seeking safety and this situation doesn't make me safe? And my reaction or my response to this whole deal is that "I don't feel safe; therefore, I'm going to get angry." My motivation is safety, but how I'm getting there could cost me a lot. So is it safety? Is it security? Is it control? And that one really hits me, right? When things start to feel out of control, my emotions start to really ratchet up. So safety, security, control, peace, respect, value. If I feel like someone's being disrespectful or devaluing me, that can really stir up some[thing] way inside of me. Rightness ... am I just so desperate to be right? Is that what's really driving this anger? Because remember, it's not about the thing; it's not about the anger. It's like what is the thing beneath the thing?
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
The thing.
Jim Cress:
Anger is just that check-engine light on the dashboard of your car. Go down below and pull codes. Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
So internally, maybe I'm desiring belonging, and someone makes me feel rejected. Maybe I'm desiring freedom, maybe I'm desiring a sense of comfort, and someone's denying me that comfort. So those are all internal motivations, but then of course, out of those internal motivations, then sometimes we have external realities that come out of that. Like a motivation, like my motivation could be: I want to manage other people's emotions. So it's not that I'm trying to control you; it's that I really want to manage your emotions, which of course leads right into codependency. I need you to be OK so I can be OK.
Jim Cress:
Yeah. Exactly.
Lysa TerKeurst:
But if you're not OK, then I'm not going to feel OK, and I want to feel OK. So I really need you to be OK, OK? Right? And if you're not, I'm going to start feeling angry — or whatever the thing is for you.
Jim Cress:
So you really ... Well, you said it eloquently; when I'm doing that, I'm really trying to manage myself. It looks like I'm trying to manage you, kind of a boomerang as I call it. I'm really trying to get self-regulation because if I don't think things are cool over here ... I can't be ... that's a lie. I can learn to be self-regulated no matter what you're storming on over here. But it's nice to try to control other people in attempt to control my interior world of my own self.
Lysa TerKeurst:
So it could be managing other people's emotions. It could be I want to avoid people situations or circumstances. Sometimes I will try to keep the peace and make peace because I am so against ... over here like this person who is not peaceful. So instead of addressing it and having an adult conversation about it, maybe putting some healthy boundaries in place, I'll avoid. So my internal motivation is: I want peace, but my outward motivation is: I want to stay away from this person because they're going to rob me of my peace. And so therefore, I'm going to avoid them rather than address it. Maybe it's that we are ruminating over something from our past.
Jim Cress:
Right.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Right? And so think through. This is what I'm doing, what am I really seeking inside of me? And so this is what I'm doing, and then the reason I'm doing this is because I have some motivation inside of me. And so what is that thing beneath the thing driving the behaviors that we really don't want to do?
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
Yeah, I think that's so good. And at the end of the day, to determine all this ... I'm listening to this and what we absolutely need is a mediator. We need someone to be able to step in and be able to give us clear assessment of all of these internal motivations, what's taking place! I want to start maybe with going back a little bit and going to Proverbs 4:23. This is what it says, "Guard" — which the Hebrew word here is natsar — "Guard your heart above all else, for it is the source of life" (CSB). So the motivations, and, Lysa, this goes back to that James passage. The motivations that you and I have are from the wellspring of our heart. And so this is what the author of Proverbs is saying here; we need to guard this. We need to be careful of it.
Now, this is funny. I was working on a chapter of my book that comes out in a bit, and we're talking about the Holy Spirit. And I had this thought, halfway through it, and I must've been watching some mob movies or something. But the moment where the mobsters are all sitting around a table and the conciliary — is that what his name is? The conciliary?
Jim Cress:
I've never been in the mob, so I don't know.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
OK, so I think the conciliary comes in, and it's like the legal person who gives advice —
Jim Cress:
Oh, yeah. OK.
Lysa TerKeurst:
OK.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
— On what to do and how to do it. And it almost feels like what we need spiritually is this type of media, this type of advice-giver to step in. Now, the good news is that the Holy Spirit is not a mobster, and the Holy Spirit is not employed. But what the Holy Spirit is going to do for us is mediate and bring to recognition what our motivations are.
So for instance, if we aren't to guard, that's what we're told to ... we need to guard our hearts and protect our hearts above all things. Well, we are unable in our own means to do that by ourselves. So we need help from not inside of us but outside of us. And so this is why Jesus in John Chapter... Let's see, I'm going to find this ... Jesus in John, He says this; this is the Greek word parakletos. "When the Counselor comes, the one I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father—he will testify about me" (John 15:26, CSB). Well, who is the Counselor; where's the parakletos? This is the Greek word that is described as our Advocate or our Helper. This is the person that we summoned to give us assistance. And so really what we need in order to make sense of our motivations is this Mediator, the Holy Spirit, who can do that for us.
And then, Lysa, I want to go back to James because there's so much wisdom here. In fact, our good friend Shae Tate Hill actually helped with this.
Jim Cress:
Well, you had to get the names right in there.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
You heard me pause?
Jim Cress:
Yeah. You're good.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
'Cause I would go, Shae Hill ... I was like, Shae Tate Hill. But she shared this passage with us, and I've been obsessed with this ever since. But this is James Chapter 3, and there is this comparison between a type of wisdom or motivations that are driven from below versus above. And so in James 3, starting in verse 14, "But if you have bitter envy and selfish ambition" — notice where — "in your heart" (CSB). Remember that Proverbs passage?
Jim Cress:
Mm-hmm.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
There's always echoes in Scripture, and patterns have purpose. And here we go, "... don't boast and deny the truth. Such wisdom does not come down from above but is earthly" (James 3:14-15, CSB). In other words, below; it's unspiritual; it's demonic. And look at this list where there's envy, selfish ambition, where there's disorder in every evil practice. These are the things that are coming from below. Verse 17. "But the wisdom from above" — instead of disordered — "is first pure, then peace-loving, gentle, compliant, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without pretense. And the fruit of righteousness" — and remember those motivations, Lysa, that you listed about peace and all these things that we want. Notice this: "And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who cultivate peace" (James 3:18, CSB). And that phrase "cultivate peace," it's about acting in order to create an atmosphere that is rightly ordered. And that is really what we're longing for. So as we're thinking about these motivations and managing them and trying to really make sense of them —
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's so good too.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
— We kind of think about that.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, I love that. And asking myself, "Am I right now in this decision? Am I using earthly wisdom? Or am I using God's wisdom?" And of course, if we're using God's wisdom, that's what the Bible is full of. Jim, as we wrap up today, what would you say if someone came into your office and said, "Look, I want to have a more peaceful life, and I cannot figure out what I'm doing that is causing me to just have no peace." What would you do?
Jim Cress:
Well, I'm going to look for, again, things that may be blocking you, especially the passage y'all just shared. What's blocking peace from being in your life organically, blocking the flow even from God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. I'm going to be reminded of Jeremiah; I use this passage a lot. And if I may, just take it right out of its context and just state it, "That my people, they're treating their wounds superficially." In the Hebrew, it's a compound fracture, you're putting a Band-Aid on it. They're treating a compound wound superficially, saying what? Peace, peace when there is no peace.
Dr. Joel Muddamalle:
There is no peace. Mm-hmm.
Jim Cress:
So some people are peace-fakers. They are peacekeepers and say, "What is blocking me from having peace made with me?" I'm going to take them — most of my work’s with believers and not always — but I'm going to take them to the book of Philippians Chapter 4 for this wonderful passage. Hey, dude. You anxious, you got some worries, some stuff going on. That's OK, don't be anxious. Come on, it's very gentle. Come over here, bring everything you got and come and present it before God. Just petition and say, Lord, hear it ... all this. And what good bookends: that the God of peace will then grant me the peace of God or the very peace of Christ. And by the way, are you obsessing over bad things? Hey, look, whatever things are right, virtuous of a good report, praiseworthy, you know those really good things that are there. Brain's wired for confidence in knowing, and it will often gravitate to the negative stuff, pass to that itty-bitty pity committee inside you.
Whatever things are those good things, let your mind dwell on these things. And I'll say, "Where's your thought life? Well, look what's blocking you?" And then of course, if it's hysterical times, it could be historical. Maybe you're still believing scripts running from family of origin, rules from the past, roles you played in your family. And maybe there are scripts that are rolling there through your brain autonomically, automatically; it's time to change the scripts and practices. We've said many times, right? Nehemiah 5:7, "I took counsel with myself" (ESV). You got to take counsel with yourself and say, "Wait a minute." I do this in my life, I promise. I refuse that thought, like a lot. I'll say, “I refuse that thought, and here's what I want to put in there” and end with 2 Corinthians 10:5: Taking every thought captive and making it obedient to Christ. For Martin Luther said it this way, "I can't keep those thought birds from flying over my head, but I can keep them from making a nest in my hair."
Lysa TerKeurst:
Thank you, Jim. If we want peace, then we need to go where peace exists.
Jim Cress:
Yeah.
Lysa TerKeurst:
We don't need to just sprinkle a little of this, a little of that into our life and think, "Oh, if I just get this new thing." Or "Oh, if I can just get this new relationship." Or "Oh, if I can just reach this new level of education, then I'll have what I want in my life." But instead, we need to go where peace exists. And where does peace exist? Peace exists in praise music; peace exists getting into God's Word; peace exists in conversations with other Godly people.
Jim Cress:
Yes.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Peace exists when we get into therapy, and if you cannot get into therapy for whatever reason, then listening to this podcast is a great place to be. If we want to become more self-aware and increase the peace and make our relationships better and just make our life better, then we've got to go where peace exists. And I hope we've given you some peace today. And what is our real motivation? We want to live life — a life that honors God and loves people.