Tom and Paul read meditations

What is Tom and Paul read meditations?

A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Good morning, Paul.

Yeah, this is the, uh, this
is the beginning of a brand

new era for this podcast.

I'm sure that listener can already
detect that, that we are, we

sound different, hopefully better.

My hope is that we sound better
because we have been, I don't know if

this is a matter of, of podcast lore
already, but we have been using like

a portable sort of briefcase podcast
mic Where it's in a nice plastic case

and we set it up before the podcast.

And it's, uh, it's, I think
kind of a, let's say an entry

level set of podcast mics.

I don't think our audio has ever sounded
amazing, but it certainly has been

good enough to record the first 20
or whatever episodes of our podcast.

Now we are going to record
remotely for a while.

So we are.

Using podcast mics and a zoom call
and hopefully we sound much, much

better now, but also I think it's very
possible that we sound worse because at

least some of this recording is going
to get mediated by my home internet.

So we'll see what that, what that means.

Speaker 3: Yes.

Paul loves touching me.

Yes.

He really likes to

Speaker 2: touch me.

Yes.

It's involuntary.

I can't help it.

Paul really likes gently torturing me by,
by, by giving, by being completely normal

and affectionate for what I think is
totally reasonable, normal human behavior.

And then I am not expecting it.

So I like do something like a cat
that doesn't want to be touched.

And like,

you're, you're not the.

You're not the only person
who's ever remarked on this.

I have some like, I can think of a
family friend of ours who's also just a

very sweet woman who just like is kind
of like a motherly, you know, like an

aunt to me or something like that, who
just like, you know, I think is a little

more touchy feely than my family is.

And so once in a while when I see her,
she'll just, you know, put her hand

on my shoulder or whatever, and I'll
be like, yeah, what's wrong with you?

And she's like, whoa, are you okay?

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Yeah, I'm a, I'm a zoo animal.

Yes.

This makes me feel like a freak.

Yeah.

Cause I'm a, I'm a, yes,
I'm a pet who has to be.

Gingerly handled.

Yes.

That is what we're talking about.

Maybe.

Yeah.

Yes.

So anyway, I guess my dream has come true.

That type of touching is no
longer a part of this podcast.

I have the protective
barrier of a laptop screen.

Yep.

Yeah, it is.

We, uh, we had a podcast record
scheduled last, what was it last week?

I think last week.

And we, um, in reference to the thing
we were just talking about, we had some

breakfast and had a nice conversation and
that conversation took about 90 minutes.

And we realized we had used up
all the time we were going to.

Used to record our podcast.

So we kind of tried to record an
episode and just totally failed.

Although we had a very nice
conversation, I thought.

Um, so yeah, sorry listeners.

We, we maybe could have just put the mics
in front of us and had the conversation

that way, but we, we didn't do that.

So yes, it has been a
while since we recorded.

I mean, I, I think the only thing
that's that comes to mind for me

right now in terms of things to bring
to the podcast is that if we're in a

little transitional period, not just
with this podcast, but in general, and

frankly, more for you than me with.

The travel that you
have ahead of you here.

Um, so

Speaker: yeah,

yeah.

Yeah,

Speaker 3: yeah, right.

Yeah.

Very stoic.

Speaker: Yeah.

Feeling a little comfortable.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Yeah.

I thankfully I don't look at it
as losing them, but yeah, they're

not, they're not, uh, not going
to be in San Francisco anymore.

So yeah, that'll be a change for me.

To certainly will will miss
having you guys around.

Um, and so, yeah, there's, I mean, it's
a much bigger change for you than me,

but I don't want to totally downplay
the fact that it's a change for me to

yeah, that we have all these weekly
rituals that are going to get changed to.

So, um.

It is my least favorite time of the year.

Have I talked about this on the podcast?

I can't remember.

Anyway, I, I can, I'm happy to explain.

I'll explain it briefly, which
is this is always I, yeah, I

hate roughly this time of year.

It's a time of year where, you know,
most of my life has so, so far has

been lived on an academic calendar.

And so usually this was
the time of year where.

Classes would finish or whatever and it
was time for summer break, which for your

average school child is like the best time
of year because now you have three months

ahead of you or whatever of no school.

But no, I would be miserable because,
uh, all the structure would go away

and I would be like, I would feel
unproductive and just not like myself.

And so I would be sad
at this time of year.

And that was especially true when I
was in graduate school and like, uh,

And beyond essentially where you'd
have classes and teaching and then

it would all go away and your job was
to just do research by yourself and

not interact with anyone for months.

Uh, that I was a very sad graduate
student during that period.

And the, our, our business right now
isn't quite the same way, but in a

way it is because the tax deadline
happens in April and it's kind of

like, finals or something like that.

And then it's like, everyone
goes away and chills for a while.

Um, and I, so I've, I, it's not
as acute for me as an adult,

but it's still kind of true.

Or it has been in my, my couple of
years at keeper where there's like

this, I get this sort of restlessness
and, and yeah, sort of creeping

unhappiness in like June, roughly.

So yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yes.

I actually kind of think that is a way in
which Like I sort of a stoic philosophy

emerged in my life, maybe even before we
started reading this book, actually, where

I started, I realized this pattern and
I realized my best approach for getting

through it was not like, Oh, I'm going
to do something radically different.

It was more of this kind of like sort
of cliche, but like day at a time, just

like, Hey, I know this time, you know,
time of the year is not my favorite time.

Yeah, just kinda.

See how it goes.

Don't, don't be too hard on yourself.

Don't set your expectations too high.

That kind of thing.

Um,

Speaker 3: yeah, that's,
that's a nice phrase.

Yeah.

I've never heard that before.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Yeah.

So here we are.

I guess I can give, uh, for other
episodes we record in the coming months.

I can give nice little scary
spring updates from, from

Tom's end about how it's going.

As I tipped, as I tiptoe through the
haunted garden of June or whatever.

Yeah.

It's beautiful.

It's so nice in San Francisco right now.

I really have absolutely nothing
to complain about, but oh, it goes.

Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

How are you feeling?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Cool.

All right.

I think it will be really interesting,
or I'm really interested to hear sort of

like, how does this, you know, this ritual
we have, this book, this podcast sit

with you from a totally different place
or once you've, you know, sort of taken

a step back from the Some of the other
rituals you've built in your life too.

I'm, I'm, I'm hoping
it'll be really fruitful.

Speaker: Nice.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I bet it'll
be more complicated than that.

No offense.

I think, I think I bet you will feel some
of that for sure, but I bet there will be

some other stuff that comes along with,

Speaker: yeah.

Speaker 2: Cool.

Okay.

Well, I feel that we have been.

Delaying the start of book seven now for
like weeks and weeks between how long it

took us to get through book six and then
last week where we thought we would start

book seven that didn't record at all.

I feel like we have
reached the much awaited.

It's kind of appropriate in a way.

Maybe, but we are starting the second
half of this book today so that we

will be cleanly divided between the
in person first half of the book and

at least to start the second half
will be recorded remotely like this.

So I wonder if Mr.

Marcus will have any big changes going
on with him as we enter the second

half of this book and in the way
that we are dealing with ourselves.

Okay, cool.

All right.

Well, let's just, I see a couple
of words that are catching my eye

in the first few bullet points that
are, I'm, I'm excited to get to, so,

okay, maybe let's just jump into it.

Number one, evil, the same old thing.

Okay.

All right.

No matter what happens, keep this in
mind, it's the same old thing, from

one end of the world to the other.

It fills the history books, ancient and
modern, and the cities and the houses too.

Nothing new at all.

Familiar.

Transient.

I like that.

I mean, okay, a couple
of reactions to this.

First of all, I see you
talked about evil much before.

I don't think it like he's not really,
uh, if anything, he's often, I feel

like kind of, uh, the world is mostly,
I mean, like there's good stuff, I

guess, like the, the stuff the gods
make or whatever is good, but we don't

hear that much about evil from him.

He tends to be sort of stay
away from, from questions of

good and evil for the most part.

I feel like, yeah, yeah.

I feel like, yeah,

yeah.

It fills the history
books, ancient and modern.

Yeah.

Um,

Speaker: yeah,

yeah,

Speaker 2: yeah, yes.

Uh, yeah, I think that's right.

That's how I'm parsing it.

It is like when something bad happens to
you, the, it's easy to have the reaction

of like, this is the worst thing that
has happened in the history of the world.

And he's like, take a chill pill.

It's, this is, this is what,
how it always goes, you know?

And I, I, I guess I interpret.

Maybe this is too small minded.

I interpret like when I imagine what
he thinks of evil or like what what

would be something evil to Marcus?

It's presumably people being like kind
of like selfish or like some way in

which they're like sort of overstepping
their bounds and not like, you know

adhering to his philosophy Right.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So in a, in a break between books
here, maybe he has to go, you know,

squash a mutiny and then he comes
back and says, okay, I know what

I'm going to write about his time.

It's.

It's evil.

I'm also really struck by the
idea that even they had history

books, both ancient and modern.

Like, what was

in his ancient history book?

I wonder.

Yeah.

And they had history books about Egypt?

That's how it worked?

Speaker: Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Damn.

Speaker 2: Scraps of it.

Yeah, I say, okay, that's cool.

Boy, that makes you sort of jealous.

Modern reader, listener or whatever to be
like, damn, what was in those books that

Marcus was reading about the history of
Egypt or whatever that has been lost now?

Yeah.

Also the same old thing from one
end of the world to the other.

How big a world is Marcus
envisioning when he describes that?

Yeah,

yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Evil in my life.

It's yeah, it's really.

I gotta say, evil is not, I mean,
lucky me, knock on wood, evil

is not a concept that comes up
that much in my day to day life.

Um, this evil, yeah,

I really struggled to even think, I mean,
like, the truth of the sort of core of

a tough June for me has much more to do
with, like, My, my own dangers of like,

you know, but placing too much of my self
esteem on feeling very productive and

like, I'm getting like that kind of thing.

And then when it doesn't happen, I'm sad.

Like that's the, that's
the core of the problem.

I don't know.

Yeah.

I'm really struggling.

I feel like usually, usually I might
come up with something clever to

connect it to the question, but I really
have nothing to connect that to evil.

Um, Yeah, lucky me.

I mean, lucky us that we get to
live lives where I mean, some of

that is just a reflection of such of
the independent lives that we lead.

I think these days where who even could
be evil in my life and cause me problems.

Not not so many people.

Yeah.

How about you?

Evil resonate in your life at all?

Speaker 3: Okay.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Yeah.

Sure.

I think I know where this is going.

Oh, Oh, that's not what I
thought you were going to say.

Okay.

Wait.

Okay.

I think, I think, okay.

I have another guest now, but go ahead.

Speaker: Yeah, I would like that too.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Tell the other people that yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

The other person

is up to like Sacramento
or something horrible.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

A special vehicle.

Yeah.

What'd you do?

Speaker 2: Betrayal.

Yeah.

Speaker 4: Would.

Speaker: Yeah.

I say.

That's yeah.

Speaker 3: Wow.

Yeah.

I get it.

Yeah.

That's tough.

Oh wow.

That's nice of you.

Doesn't sound evil.

Speaker: Wow.

Yeah, pay it, pay it forward, yeah,

okay,

yeah,

okay,

Speaker 2: that's nice, that's funny,
it's like very childish, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Speaker 3: yeah, yeah, did he respond?

Okay, okay, it was over.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's funny.

Did

Speaker 2: it?

Okay.

I, I mean, I don't know that I agree
that you were evil in that situation.

Maybe a really tiny bit, but also
I think, you know, the nature of

that kind of marketplace kind of
makes you do that to some extent.

I, yeah.

I'm not judging you too
much morally for that.

If anything, yes, if, yes, if anything,
the amount of conscience that it clearly

involved for you to talk to this guy and
offer him the gas money and then message

him later that you did a good thing.

I think all of that is, is
evidence of a functioning human,

uh, sense of morality, you know?

Speaker 3: Yeah, I get it.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Speaker: yeah,

yeah.

Speaker 2: I say, did you consider
explaining to him that evil is

the same old thing regardless of
where it happens in human history?

Yes.

These, all these houses, these
houses around you are all filled

with evil apparently for some reason.

You don't think that would have helped.

Wow.

Okay.

Well, in that way, I, I
fully disagree with him.

My I'm, I'm with Marcus on those
one, whatever evil you committed

is just the same old thing.

Number two.

You cannot quench understanding unless
you put out the insights that compose it.

But you can rekindle those
at will like glowing coals.

I can control my thoughts as
necessary, then how can I be troubled?

What is outside my mind
means nothing to it.

Absorb that lesson, and
your feet stand firm.

You can return to life.

Look at things as you did
before, and life returns.

Whoa.

Very heady.

Um, I'm, let's talk, let's
talk through this one.

Yeah.

I feel like I also am
not, not fully there yet.

Okay.

Let's talk about that first sentence.

You cannot quench understanding unless
you put out the insights that compose it.

Yeah.

Put out, I think means like chill.

Like you like, like the way
you would put out a fire.

Um, so I, I

I think that also means like kill to like,

I think the first sentence, I think
I kind of get where it's like, once

you understand something that's sort
of this like irreversible state.

It's, you can't like, really,
you can't really go back from it.

'cause you would have to like put
out, yeah, there's like, once you had

the necessary insight to understand a
thing, you can't undo that understanding

without undoing those insights.

And I think by implication those
insights can't really be undone or, or

as he says in the next sentence, you
can rekindle those insights at will,

like glowing coals, like understandings
are like, or insights are like Kohls.

So they can always just be rekindled.

And so I guess the point of all
of this is just like, people

can't make you on no things.

Once you know a thing you can,
I can just like, I could always

rekindle whatever thing it is.

I know by like retracing the, the series
of insights that led me to that thing.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

Then he gets to what is outside
my mind means nothing to it

that I guess this is
like very classic stoic.

Thoughts that yeah, there's this the
things you sort of that happened to

you and and everything else fine Absorb
that lesson and your feet stand firm.

Okay,

what's like?

what would be an example of somebody
who has not absorbed the lesson

of That that the things outside
your mind mean nothing to it.

Speaker 3: I guess
somebody yeah, go ahead.

Speaker: I say

Throw it all away.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Wow.

Wow.

What an, what an interesting
example for this particular passage.

It speaks to both parts of it.

I feel like, like on the one hand it
is about the first thing for sure.

I totally agree that she's like, she
has, she can't unknow the insight

she has had about the, Oh no, this
party is not as meritocratic as

I expected, but also in a way.

She is troubled by a thing that
is kind of beyond her control and

like, is it like she can do what
she can do within a party like that,

but getting super like tied up in how
unfair or non meritocratic it is, in

a way, is borrowing trouble from a
thing that she cannot control, right?

Like she's like, so.

In a way, she, I think, is maybe a
good example of this, of a person

who has not absorbed the lesson that
Marcus is, is invading here that we're

so, so I, I guess, what do you
think Marcus would think about her?

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah.

Good.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Yeah.

I agree.

I think that's right.

I think that he would, I guess he's a
very like, uh, we'll look at that way.

He's a very like, sort of pragmatic.

Yeah.

Like co op the system from the inside
kind of guy, as opposed to like,

yeah, it seems like he, he might
not have tolerant much tolerance in

general for revolutionaries actually.

Um,

Speaker: yeah, yeah,

yeah.

Speaker 2: It also seems to me like
there's a difference there where Marcus

is living in this period and maybe
this is just my total ignorance of

history, but it feels like he's living
in this period where like organizations

like his sort of belief that
you should kind of just like.

Yeah.

Play your role in the system and
whatever organization you're a part

of, because those are basically
like, even if they're not perfect,

you know, it's the right thing to
do because that's your fate in life.

It has, it's like underpinned by
this assumption that those systems

and organizations are kind of
basically good in a way, even if

they're not imperfect, they're not
like engines of, of evil themselves.

Whereas I think what's the realization
that, that the Cuban revolutionary

you're describing is having is like,
Oh wait, The whole organization I

have is actually backwards and like
participation in it is a net negative.

Um, which seems like it, it doesn't even,
it's, that's not even on Marcus's radar.

As far as I can tell the idea
that like some organizations are

a mistake to be a part of at all.

Speaker: Hmm.

Yeah.

I really have no idea.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Speaker 2: right, right.

Okay.

So that's interesting.

So one possibility is that he's
realized that there's a little

bit of evil in him, right?

That he had some invasive evil thought
that was like, you know, some, some,

some guy had a, yeah, was was stalking
back or maybe, you know, fomenting

a mutiny or whatever and was like,
all right, just off with his head.

And then he was like, Whoa.

How should I feel about that?

Um,

there's one other way of like reading
this that's maybe not as strong, but

it's, I can't help but have it occur
to me, which is, it's kind of also

like a, like philosophy is cool.

Entry is another way of reading this,
where he's kind of like, you know,

as long as I like, get my little
philosophical nuggets and insights and

stuff, no one can take them away from me.

I can like

the, the only progress
that philosophy makes is.

Forward because it's a, it's
a system of understanding the

world that, that is, that's, I
guess, another way of reading it.

I don't, I think it's, it feels a
little bit less specific than the

conversation we were having before.

So I think, I think I like the other
reading more, but it, it's, I think

possibly also on his mind, it's,
he's, he's always talking a little

bit about how philosophy is cool.

I feel like,

Speaker 4: Hmm.

Speaker: Right, right.

Speaker 2: But yeah.

How do you make sense of that, that those,
those last sentences are interesting.

Look at things as you did before.

But the whole sort of presupposition
of this conversation is you've learned

something new, which changes the way
you understand the things you did before

presence.

Yeah, yes.

Okay.

So it's look at things as you did before.

Sort of an asterisk.

Yeah.

Yeah, like with or ideally like what's
happened is you get this new like ideally

kind of more abstract or meta perspective.

I'm like, okay, I thought Christmas
was about presents that came from Santa

Claus, but I've realized it's about
something like bigger or whatever,

but still sort of about presents.

Yeah.

Okay.

So kind of a confusing entry in that
way because that look at things as you

did before is really only half true.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, he's he's got some he's got some
new juice something happened to him

between this and uh, The last book.

Okay, number three

pointless bustling of processions
opera arias herds of sheep and cattle

military exercises period a bone flung
to pet poodles a little food in the

fish tank The miserable servitude
of ants, scampering of frightened

mice, puppets jerked on strings.

Surrounded as we are by all of this,
we need to practice acceptance,

without disdain, but remembering
that our own worth is measured

by what we devote our energy to.

Yeah.

Some nice, uh, some nice poetry there.

They had poodles.

That feels, yeah.

His little list.

Yeah.

I, I, I'm skeptical that poodles
even existed at his period.

They feel like the definition of
the kind of breed of dog that was,

didn't come about until later.

But okay.

Maybe I'll look into
that after the episode.

I am curious if the
ancient Romans had poodles.

Uh,

Speaker: yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that is true.

Yeah, yeah, yes, there's always this
like And I, I agree that there's

like, there are usually items on
these lists that feel like they do.

They are not even the right
category of thing in the list.

Like in this one, the one that
catches my mind is opera arias.

Like it's all kind of about like stupid
movement of groups and that kind of thing.

But then one item on that list
is opera arias, which doesn't.

I guess he thinks that's equally
equally like meaningless or whatever.

Okay, not an opera fan.

Speaker: Yes,

Speaker 2: yes,

although as I recall,
wasn't there some entry?

There's some fairly memorable entry.

I think in book six about the different
kinds of people and what they think about.

And my recollection is that people
who think about herds of sheep

and cattle were at least the
second rung of the four rungs.

There were people who think about rocks.

Those were the dumbest people.

And then there were people who
think about sheep and cattle.

That's all.

And then I forget something that you think
about other people and then like your own

mind or something like that, I think was
the progression or something like that.

Yeah, I do.

Okay.

So, so setting aside the fun details
of his list, although there's more

stuff I'm interested in, he thinks
that ants are miserable servants.

Uh, yeah, I'm like, how does he know that?

Uh, I, I kind of like, like this overall.

List to me is like the theme.

He's sort of developing is like, Hey,
you know, we're kind of at the mercy of

where these like tiny little creatures
that are at the mercy of the universe.

We're just like scuttling around because
that's what the world tells us to do.

But it's because we can't
see the big picture.

It's all examples of just like kind
of kind of dumb animals who don't

know much, just like doing whatever
it feels like they're supposed to

do because they don't really know.

They don't understand.

The world.

And so,

and so given that we are those kinds
of creatures, we're just stupid goats

and cows walking around being like,
duh, I don't know what's going on.

A good thing, a good way to deal with
that is to accept it without disdain.

I totally am on board with this.

This is one of the ones where my
alignment index with Marcus is very high.

I like this way of looking at life a lot,
actually, that there's like, yeah, I.

I like that part too.

Remember that our own worth is measured
by what we devote our energy to.

I think there's, there's something nice
there too, which is to say like, I like

that as a counterbalance, because if
you just are like, okay, we're all dumb

animals and we, our job is just to accept
that there is like a sort of cop out

there where it's just like, okay, cool.

All I have to do is accept
that I'm a dumb animal.

And it lets me just like, it gives me
authorization to do whatever I want and

I'm not responsible for anything because
look how hard my life is or whatever.

And he's saying like, that's true on
some level, but also our life still

can have meaning and, and worth.

But the way we should measure it is
maybe not so much through what we

know or accomplish, but just like what
we try, what we like actually devote

ourselves to, which I think is nice.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

I, I'm interpreting the list
as somewhat metaphorical.

I know he says like surrounded
as we are by all of this, like,

but I think he's also to me, he's
also saying that this is kind of

what we are on some level that like
we are these things that are like.

You know, the world is
big and complicated.

We don't totally get it where
these limited sensory robots.

We just like are getting we're puppets
getting jerked around on on strings.

And so given that that's what
we're not only are we surrounded by

that, but it is what we are like.

We could like approaches to
life, which are about like, I

am the master of the universe.

I understand everything and therefore
I will execute my vision for the world

and accomplish all these things are
like always kind of doomed to fail just

because of like the nature of who we are.

So instead, what we should do is
like, chill with that, chill with

controlling the whole world more like.

Hey, this is, this is
what we've been dealt.

This is what we're like,
we can do our best with it.

We should, we can try to, you know, have
effects that hopefully make life better.

But acceptance has to
be a huge part of it.

Just because we are these
little scuttling bugs.

On a big world that we
don't totally understand.

Yeah.

And I think that, that's like, you
know, that has a sort of, I am one ant

in a big colony of ants and the, you
know, I don't have to understand the

whole world in order to contribute to
making it better kind of vibe to it.

Yeah.

I do too.

They are also night at a
nice sweet spot lengthwise.

I think sometimes I feel like his, he'll
do these like single sentence fragment

entries, which are tough to get into.

I feel like, and also sometimes
he'll do a whole freaking page

and that can also be tough.

But boy, when Marcus does two short
paragraphs like this, Ooh, yeah.

That's when he's, I think
operating at his best.

Okay.

Number four, focus.

On what is said when you speak and on
what results from each action, know what

the one aims at and what the other means.

Yes.

Yeah.

And he's saying, I think I interpret
this as sort of being like, measure those

things separately and then see where the
mismatches like no, like pay attention to

what you said, be clear on what you were
trying to accomplish by saying the thing

you said, and then look at the results,
figure out what those results mean.

And you'll see, like, What the, what
the gap is, if anything, it reminds

me of this, this entry from a while
back that I really liked that.

I think I don't remember what the text
of it was, but when we sort of took

away from it was this idea that stoicism
really lives in this, like, little

moment of reaction to things that other
People say, which I've, I've really

liked as a way of thinking about it.

It's like, you know, a philosophy,
if you don't have control over that

much, but you do have this control over
like your own thoughts and behaviors

and response to certain situations.

And so it really, really lives in this
like moment between action and reaction.

I feel like that's kind of
what's going on here too.

Is there's this moment you take
this speech action and then you,

there's this reaction that happens.

Which is maybe not totally the
on target reaction, but the thing

you have control over is like
understanding the relationship

between action and reaction there.

I dig that.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah,

yeah,

Speaker 2: yeah, yeah.

It's more nuanced, I think, than
just like actions are all like,

you know, words are cheap and
actions are valuable or whatever.

It's like, Yeah, words are a part of a
big part of what you have, especially

for him, but words are a big part
of what he has to offer the world.

So they do have value.

But yes, there it is like you have
to get good also at parsing this.

Yeah.

It is really interesting that he says,
focus on what is said when you speak.

Maybe that's just a translation
thing, but it could easily have

been written as like just arbitrary.

Right.

Focus on what is said when one
speaks and on what results.

But he seems like he thinks that this
idea of like knowing what the aim of

speech is might only be possible for
yourself that when other people are

speaking, you can't always know what they.

know what the one aims at, I think is like
weird, I think that's weird English, but

what he's actually saying is the first
thing in the sentence that I just said.

Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

And the way to improve yourself
is by like being attentive to the

gap between what you aimed at and
what resulted so that you can close

that gap in the future or whatever.

Yeah.

Or just understand your audience more
completely or something like that.

Okay.

Number five.

I like the first sentence
of number five here.

Is my intellect up to this?

If so, then I'll put it to work,
like a tool provided by nature.

And if it isn't, then I'll turn the
job over to someone who can do better.

Unless I have no choice.

Yeah, I guess the important caveat there
being maybe there's no one who's more

in a lot like no, I, I, I, I don't know.

Okay, let's return to that once I finish
this or I do the best I can with it and

collaborate with whoever can make use
of it to do what the community needs

done because whatever I do alone or
with others can aim at one thing only

what squares with those requirements.

Okay.

Yeah.

So it does seem like the
second paragraph is maybe you.

He's outlining a couple of possibilities.

All right.

There's some task he's performing.

I mean, it kind of sounds like it's hard
to not interpret that first question

as big, like, is my intellect up to
writing this book or like espousing this

philosophy or whatever, but I think he's
using the vague or this, like there's

just some, this, some challenge that he's
facing and he's asking the, he's going

through the process of being like, okay.

Here's a, here's a problem that
might require my intellect.

Let's walk through the possibilities.

It's possible that my
intellect is up to the task.

In which case the logic is simple.

Use it.

If it is not, then one option is to
find someone smarter than me and have

them do it unless I have no choice.

That part is I'm a little bit.

unsure what he means.

I was sort of joking, but only half joking
when I said that possibly one thing that

might means it might mean is there is
no such person with a greater intellect

than eyes is so that I have no choice or
like this choice is not available to me.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah,

Speaker 2: right.

Yeah.

And collaboration is the thing
that comes down later on the

flow chart after delegation.

Maybe there is no.

So there is no one person who
is up to this task on their own.

But through collaboration, we
can we can achieve the thing.

And, and I guess he's underscoring
the fact that those those tasks

delegation, uh, independent
work and, and collaboration.

All end up working towards, they,
they might feel different, but

they're all about satisfying
the needs of the community.

Sometimes he gets, he gets very like,
I want to show him a flow chart.

I want to like, he gets very like,
here are the possibilities and let

me outline all of them in a way.

I mean, he does it pretty well in words,
but it feels like he's like hinting at

these, like a type of logical argument
that some diagrams would be really,

I just feel like he would enjoy that.

He would enjoy that.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah,

yeah.

Number six.

Oh,

Speaker 2: sorry.

Good.

The flowchart concept.

I think so.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, they obviously
had, you know, a lot of the like

basics of logical reasoning were
certainly already the Greeks had.

Them, but the, the flowchart
specifically, I'm not aware of

when it came into existence.

It feels like a more modern thing.

He feels like somebody who is well
versed in like the Greek mathematical

tradition of logic to me about like,
if this, then this, and then this means

this implies this, he phrases, a lot
of his stuff kind of like that to me.

Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, let's let's
finish it off with this banger, which,

okay, we've, we've made jokes about
like slipping in either fake ones

or, uh, entries we've already read
before to see if anyone could tell.

And boy, does this feel like one of
those number six, so many who were

remembered already forgotten and
those who remembered them long gone.

If you tell me that I had read
that in every single book we've

read so far, that exact entry.

I would have a tough time
disagreeing with you.

Yes.

I mean, yep.

Life is short

and yes.

And yes, in particular,
history does not like acts of

remembering are all temporary.

History forgets basically everyone.

Yep.

I mean, that must be
tough for you, Marcus.

We got to say, you know,
you did a pretty good job.

We're still talking about
you, dude, compared to 99.

99 percent or whatever.

You're doing great.

Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah.

Me too.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yes.

Speaker 2: Yep.

Totally.

Yes.

In the scheme of every book I've ever
read, this is probably the most difficult

to just crack the book open and be
like, ah, yes, I've already read this

or no, no, I have not yet read this.

It's you have to look for
very specific details.

I feel like in the text in order to be
like, yes, I remember this random detail.

Yes.

Okay.

So we wrap it up there.

First.

First remote episode.

I'm, I'm pleased with how that went.

I feel like this is, uh, I wasn't
sure exactly what it would like to,

what it would be like to do a remote
episode for us, but, uh, that was fun.

I enjoyed it anyway.

I hope.

Speaker: Oh,

Speaker 2: oh, okay.

Yes.

Pick your spots more.

Yeah.

I say.

Okay.

I hope I, I hope I wasn't
crowding you out too much.

A more structured back and forth.

Yeah.

I say.

Cool.

All right.

Well, we'll, uh, develop that muscle
a little bit more on the next episode.

So yeah.

More episodes

Chapters

What is Tom and Paul read meditations?