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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, where we dive deep into the heart of staff wellbeing within the education sector. I'm your host, Julie Liddell, and today I'm chatting to Patrick Cozier. Patrick is an experienced secondary school head teacher of 19 years. He leads Highgate Wood School in Haringey. In addition to his dear job, he's a member of teachers Roundtable and serves as a trustee of the National Charity Show, [00:00:25] racism, the Red Card More locally. He takes a leading role in the work of Haringey Racial Equity Group, and as a member of the black community, he's passionate about seeking equality justice. And fair outcomes for people of color.
[00:00:39] Patrick's first book, calm Leadership was released in December, 2025 and featured in the Amazon Top 10 Bestsellers list for education management. It was an [00:00:50] absolute pleasure to chat with Patrick today. In this episode, we discussed the themes of his book, calm Leadership, including confronting on calm feelings, adapting to the feeling of leadership, leading with humanity, and understanding.
[00:01:03] And maturing into the leader you are meant to be, as well as Marcus Aurelius. Arsen Venga, and the importance of being unapologetically you. Enjoy.[00:01:15]
[00:01:18] Hi Patrick. Great to have you all today. Hello, how are you? I'm really well, thank you. Really well. Lovely to be here. Oh, thank you. And just for a bit of context, it's a very rainy, very wet Wednesday evening, um, quite late at night. So I do appreciate you giving up this time to come and have a chat with us.
[00:01:36] No, no worries. So Patrick, you started off as a maths [00:01:40] teacher and you've been head at Highgate Wood Schools since about 2006. Correct. And before that, a deputy saw, you know, I feel like you really well placed to, I've written a book about leadership, which we'll talk about in a minute, but. Could you tell me a little bit about your career background?
[00:01:57] Did you always want to work in education? Yeah, so what's interesting is that the, the desire to be a teacher goes back to when I [00:02:05] was 17 and so at the school that I attended. The six formers were expected to do something in their time in the sixth form that gave back to the school. So there were a variety of different options available.
[00:02:21] One of the ones that I chose was to help out in learning support, um, to support children with, with, with special needs to do, you know, reading with them [00:02:30] and do some math with 'em, that sort of thing. So I did that when I was 17 years old and um, and I loved it. I really, really enjoyed it. And at that point.
[00:02:40] I decided that I was going to be a teacher. So for me it was, it was, it was, it was an absolute decision and vocation. I didn't fall into it like I know some people do. That's not to be judgy because people fall into it and still do an amazing job. But, [00:02:55] you know, I always wanted to be a, a teacher from a, from a a, a young age.
[00:02:59] I qualified, I did a PGC after, after uni in, uh, 1994. And then I began, uh, teaching in South London. So my first job was in South London in Wandsworth. It was the same school that I'd done my, my. Teach and practice app. So I was familiar with it. I really enjoyed it. I still [00:03:20] teach now. Uh, I still enjoy my, my maths teaching very much.
[00:03:23] And, um, I did that for two years. Then I became a, a deputy head of year in the same school. I then had the opportunity a year later, after three years in the profession to move back to North London where I'm from originally and where I live now, uh, to be ahead of year. And this was. Brilliant for me because I was ahead of year in the same school that I [00:03:45] attended as a child, so that was amazing.
[00:03:47] Some of the same teachers were there as well and I struggled to call them by their first names because it just didn't feel right and all that kind of stuff. So I was ahead of year for four years. I then became, uh, an assistant head teacher for the first time, and I did that for three years. I then became a deputy head teacher, and that's where it got really interesting for me because I was a deputy for one year.
[00:04:09] When [00:04:10] the head decided she was gonna retire and then I went for the job and without expecting to get it, I was successful. And, uh, ever since then I've been a head teacher, so that's a very whistle stop tour. Yeah. But your education through and through then, aren't you? You know, like it's been your entire life.
[00:04:25] A hundred percent. Yeah. Okay. So that kind of, you know, makes a bit of sense then as I say, why you feel well placed to have written this book. So your book [00:04:35] came out in January. I'm waving it here. Calm Leadership. I loved the book. I really loved your honesty around the early days of leadership. I enjoyed your openness about your experiences.
[00:04:47] You bring in both. Personal and professional experiences to kind of illustrate your points. And it's got so many takeaways. It just felt like it could be a really valuable book for, uh, any leader, but also, [00:05:00] uh, a kind of, uh, aspiring leader as well. So, you know, lots in that. Thank you. And the book feels really timely.
[00:05:06] Um, we're hearing so much, aren't we? The pressures that leaders are under. We work with a lot of school leaders, a lot of trust leaders. You know, I know the teacher wellbeing report that came out is, is seeing a rise in stress levels amongst leaders. The National Association of Head teachers is talking about the attrition rates.
[00:05:24] You know, it's, [00:05:25] you know, we're hearing an awful lot. So was it this that prompted you to write the book or was there a moment or experience that just made you think this needs to be a book? That's a really good question actually. And, and. The first thing that I would say is that if you had said to me five years ago that I was gonna write a book, I would've thought that you just didn't know me at all because.
[00:05:48] I'm a maths teacher. You're [00:05:50] a mathematician. Yeah. I'm not a writer. I never considered myself to be someone who was a writer, so therefore it would've never been on the cards at all. But I think there, there were two things really I think that drove me to write it. The first was that I started posting a lot of stuff on LinkedIn just based upon stuff that I thought I had to say.
[00:06:13] My passion [00:06:15] has always been about, as I, as I call it, developing leaders that last, it's about the idea that leadership can be a burnout job, but it doesn't have to be. So I started posting some thoughts on, on, on LinkedIn about, about leadership and about really about how leadership feels, because I think that for me is the bit that I don't think that we talk about quite enough.
[00:06:37] It just got some traction. Um, it got some interest. People [00:06:40] started responding to the posts and, and then I was approached by a fairly well-known, uh, publication in education circles, uh, to do a a nine piece article over 10 months. And so I did that about calm leadership and. Following that, I then was introduced to my publisher Crown House, [00:07:05] uh, who talked about the idea of turning that series into a book.
[00:07:09] And then it got real. And I thought, yeah, that's fine. I'll, I'll, I'll write a book. That's, that's wonderful. And yeah, I mean, I, I think if you ask me why the book exists, I think it's too. Address that gap that I think we have around people genuinely understanding what it feels like to be a leader [00:07:30] and.
[00:07:31] Having, what I didn't have when I first started actually was that sense of perspective and the reality that actually it does feel like this and, and it's okay because actually it is difficult and it does make you feel certain emotions. And the other thing as I say is, is to try to encourage people to last in leadership.
[00:07:50] And for me, that is really about the ultimate aim of trying to lead. [00:07:55] In the best way that you can for the person that you are. Yeah, and certainly that kind of, I know that was touched upon in that I think it was, is phase three, isn't it? That perspective, and I will come to a question on that in a minute, but you know, I really like that as an answer because I think that sustainability of leadership.
[00:08:12] Versus the, the burnout, the burn bright, but burn quick is exactly what we need, isn't it, in [00:08:20] education. So in your book you summarize your approach to calm leadership with a model. I do love a model. Um, and you kind of break it down into four phases. So it would be great if we could just spend a little bit of time on each of those phases, if that's okay.
[00:08:35] Absolutely. So phase one then, is it, it was called confronting un calm feelings, which is very much about [00:08:45] kind of internal calm, isn't it, and achieving that internal state of calm. And there's two themes that you focus on, imposter syndrome and dealing with paranoia. I wonder whether you could talk to us a little bit about why you think both of those things are prevalent in leadership and also maybe share a couple of strategies if you could, around.
[00:09:06] Those things. Yeah, a hundred percent. So the, the thing about [00:09:10] imposter syndrome is people say different things about it, and it's really fascinating to, to sort of listen to people talk about their views on it. For me, it's a, it's a real thing. Um, it does exist and, and I think most people feel it, especially when you are aspiring into areas that you haven't, uh, dwelled in before.
[00:09:29] So, so, so my thing is, is that it's perfectly natural. To feel that [00:09:35] level of discomfort when you are about to do something that you've never done before. And so the idea that you feel like an imposter, it's inevitable because, 'cause you haven't done it before, so it is new. You are new to it, it's new to you and because it's a step up then that sense of can I actually do this is is is very real in my story because I was a deputy for a year and two [00:10:00] terms only, it was absolutely.
[00:10:04] I was enveloped in, in in imposter syndrome. I just felt that I'd been given the job and I hadn't deserved it, that I wasn't ready for it and it was all going to go wrong and all that kind of stuff. And so I think it's really important because I. Now that I do a lot of coaching and mentoring [00:10:25] of new head teachers or people who are new to senior leadership, I now know that I was not alone.
[00:10:32] I, I thought it was just me. I would sit in a room with other head teachers who were more experienced, and I call it kind of the, the, the, the peacock strutting type thing. You know, everybody's all right and they're doing this in their school. They're doing that in their school, and I'd be thinking, oh, my.
[00:10:46] God, I'm so inferior to these people. And what I [00:10:50] now know as an experienced leader who's helping leaders who are starting out in that, in their journey, is that it's just not true. Everybody has it to some degree. So I think it's really important to to, to recognize that. And I think in terms of the strategies that I would talk about, uh, one thing is the recognition.
[00:11:10] Actually, it's a perfectly natural way to feel and it's okay, and it's an [00:11:15] indication of growth more than anything else. Um, the realization that everybody feels it. And the other thing that I talk about is the acceptance that you are going to get things wrong. Actually that that's okay. You know this, this leadership landscape is way too complicated for any of us to have it figured out.
[00:11:38] None of us know [00:11:40] fully what we are doing. You know, we are all learning constantly because things are constantly changing, and so this sense that you are on the edge of your comfort zone. Because you're not quite sure what to do is a natural state of leadership, and so you just accept it for what it is and don't feel that it somehow defines your, your insecurity or your, or your lack of competence as a leader.
[00:12:01] Actually, I would be more worried if people [00:12:05] didn't feel that sense of. You know, I'm not sure what to do next because if you think you've got it figured out, then you almost certainly haven't. And so that's kind of the, the, the imposter syndrome bit. The paranoia bit is, is just fascinating because, uh, and I mentioned this in the book.
[00:12:21] You know, the thing about me sitting down with my pa uh, on my second day of bleach, I think it was, I sat there with my PA and we had our morning [00:12:30] meeting and she says to me, Patrick, you really upset someone this morning. And I'm thinking, what? I arrived at work is all I've done. You know, I drove into the car park I've got out of my car and I've come to my office and now I'm meeting you.
[00:12:44] How? How have I managed to upset someone? And she said, apparently you walked past person X in the car park and you didn't even say anything. And I [00:12:55] thought, wow, isn't that fascinating? Because three or four months ago, they wouldn't have cared. But Now that I'm the head teacher, suddenly every interaction is important.
[00:13:08] People watch what you do. They notice everything about you. If you deliver staff briefing and you are not quite your yourself, people notice it. And so one [00:13:20] of the things that, that, that, that I've had to find a way to deal with is this idea that people are constantly. Noticing you, you know, paying attention to what you're doing, talking about you behind your back, because that happens too.
[00:13:34] Criticizing you, you know? Yeah, that happens too. But that sense of the paranoia that you have, that everything that you do is scrutinised. Every mistake that you make is magnified. Can [00:13:45] be really quite disabling. So it again, it's something you have to come to terms with. And I think, you know, for me, one of the things that's really helped me is accepting that it's okay, it's normal, you know, but those opinions are not for you.
[00:13:57] Because I did the same thing, you know, before I was a head teacher, I used to sit and talk to colleagues about what is the head thinking. Why are they doing that? Why are they making that decision? What on earth is that about? And actually, [00:14:10] it wasn't out of a lack of respect for the head, it's just because it's what people do.
[00:14:14] And so you kind of get to the point where you think, actually, it's okay. It's just not for me. It's not for my ears, it's not for my attention. And you accept that people do it. It's that spotlight effect, isn't it? That that kind of, you are in the spotlight, you know, with with parents, with children. Within the community and the staff and you know, and, and I, and I suppose you are absolutely [00:14:35] right there.
[00:14:35] It's that accepting that that's the way it is. And I think he said something about that You'd said to your daughter, wasn't it, about criticism and a and a gift that Yes. Tell me that analogy. That was lovely. So my thing is, is that, you know. It's your choice, whether you, whether you own it or not. So, yeah, I, I, my, my, my, my, my second daughter, um, Eden, I would often say to her, look, if someone [00:15:00] attempts to give you a present and you don't accept that present, who does the present belong to?
[00:15:07] And she would say, I know it belongs to them, because I didn't accept. I said, and, and criticism is exactly the same, you know, just because a person has a particular view of you and decides to express it, it doesn't mean you have to own it. You can choose not to. [00:15:25] I don't, I don't allow you to define me because you don't actually know me well enough to do so, and so you can leave the insult.
[00:15:33] Where it belongs with the person who's attempting to, you know, put it over your, over your neck. You don't have to own it. I think that's really important. Me too. And I think, you know, you, you talk about that so well in the book and then going on to phase two then. So phase two is kind of also about. This cultivation [00:15:50] of internal calm.
[00:15:51] Yeah, and I think this is kind of what you touched on at the beginning. It's about adapting to that feeling of leadership, isn't it? It's about kind of accepting what that is. Now, when I sort of was reading your perspective on this, I felt it was very like Marcus, I really, I thought it was very like, you know, sitting within.
[00:16:10] Kind of brackets really accepting that life is a bit full of discomfort. [00:16:15] And, and that's okay. But the piece kind of comes from the way that you respond and, and not kind of what comes at you. However, you then credit your sense of perspective. Not to Marcus Aurelius, all the stoics, but to ask some vengas like made me laugh and say, oh, we we're not quite on the same kind of philosopher page here.
[00:16:34] Tell me more about this perspective shift then. Yeah, what that looks like. I think it's worth saying that I'm a [00:16:40] massive fan of Marcus Surrealists, and, and I do, yeah. I do watch a lot of stuff that requotes, you know, the beliefs and the philosophy. So, so that's interesting then. Yeah. So that's, that's what I picked up on.
[00:16:51] Yeah. Yeah. So when, so when you mentioned that, I mean, that resonates really strongly. Um, but yeah, I, I do, I do, uh, reference arson venga because for me, he is the ultimate. Calm leader, um, him [00:17:05] and, and, and Carla Hilti, who I'm a big fan of as well. And the thing about this aspect of, of, of calm leadership, it is really about those two things.
[00:17:14] So one, it's about developing a sense of perspective, which I think is really important because in leadership there is the potential for. Everything to feel like a major issue. You know, everything that you confront as a leader can feel like, [00:17:30] make or break. You know, you can feel like if I get this wrong, the whole, in my case, school, because I'm a school leader, the whole school will just capitulate and, and fall apart and.
[00:17:41] What you, what you start to realize over time, of course, is that it's just not true. You know, most things that we worry about are actually relatively small in the grand scheme of things. And so having that ability [00:17:55] to develop a sense of perspective where you start to recognize what is truly impactful and what things actually are, are.
[00:18:03] They occupy Headspace, but actually they're not really that significant is a really important part of leadership because I think that's one of the ways in which you can, you can find a, a way to manage your, your emotions because you're not overreacting to everything. Well, I, I refer to it in the book as as magnitude errors.
[00:18:19] You know, there [00:18:20] are so many things that, that are issues, but, but are they small issues or are they huge issues? And I think spending some time actually. That question is a fantastic way to develop a sense of perspective. So I think that's really critical. And the other thing that for me is really important in this phase, and I think for me has probably been the most important part of my [00:18:45] journey as a leader, is embracing the fact that leadership is difficult.
[00:18:51] It is. And we shouldn't try to pretend that it isn't. We shouldn't try to make it what it isn't. You know, my thing is, is an example that I, that I often give is, you know, you, you don't become a firefighter and then say, I refuse to go [00:19:10] anywhere near a ladder or a burning building. You know, it's the nature of the job and, and it's what you signed up to.
[00:19:17] And I think leadership. Is is a bit like that. It's difficult, you know, if you are a leader, you are solving complex problems that come to you because they haven't been solved already by other people. So by its very nature, it's difficult and challenging, and that [00:19:35] is okay. And I think embracing that and therefore welcoming the opportunity to have the chance to solve these problems rather than.
[00:19:44] Seeing them as burdens, I think is, is, is critical. I'll end with one phrase that I, that I use a lot, which is that leadership is about what we get to do rather than what we've got to do. And I think that's really important, the [00:20:00] opportunity to be able to lead and have impact and have your, your values and your, you know, your moral compass guide, your decision making to help out a community.
[00:20:11] Is a massive opportunity rather than just a, a burden that, that word changing it from get to just reframes it all doesn't it Absolutely. Reframes as he says, as an opportunity. And you [00:20:25] know, you talk there about kind of accepting that it's part of the job, it's part of, you know, and, and your analogy, the firefighter.
[00:20:31] Um, and your dad played a role in that, didn't he? And I mentioned, oh God, yeah. My dad was the archetypal. Barbadian man who was full of life lessons and not much sympathy. And um, I remember, yeah, I was going for a really tough time, [00:20:50] three, four years into my, into my headship. We had a lot of stuff going on and it basically culminated in, in.
[00:20:57] In the NUT as they were called back then, taking strike action, um, over some decisions that I'd made to get rid of a deficit budget that we had. Um, so it was a really tough time and I went to see my dad in order to. I dunno, to get sympathy, I think, I'm not sure why I thought I was [00:21:15] going to get that, because that wasn't really his way.
[00:21:17] But I'm going to see him to sort of say, look Dad, by the way, uh, 'cause he lived local to where my school is. And so the local paper would've come through his letterbox and it would've had all of the stuff in there about the strike action. And there was a horrible picture of me that I know that they, um, that they had used for this article.
[00:21:37] So I went to see my dad. Partly to kinda say, [00:21:40] look, you're gonna get it, come through the letterbox. Don't worry. I'm okay. I'm doing fine. It doesn't look great, but it's not quite the way it looks and all the rest of it. But I think part of me was hoping for a little bit of sympathy as well. And he said to me, son, you chose the job.
[00:21:59] And that was. And I remember thinking at the time like, wow, really? But then I [00:22:05] thought, he's got a point actually because, 'cause we have a choice. We have a choice. You don't have to do it. If you've chosen to do it, then it's because for some reason you thought it was a good thing to do. So you don't just chuck it in because it gets difficult.
[00:22:20] You know, you find a way to dig in. And I think for me that was, um. A really important part of my, my learning from my, my dad's very brief and Kurt advice. [00:22:30] Um, so I was just thinking back to what you were, you were also talking about there and you know, did you kind of use a coach during those kind of days or have you used coaching?
[00:22:42] 'cause you do coach now as well, don't you? Yeah, I've used a number of coaches and for, and for different purposes. You know, people coach differently and it kind of served me in different ways. But yeah, a hundred percent and, and it helped me, [00:22:55] particularly in the early days. I think it helped me get through some really difficult times, actually, because I think that the kind of learning that you need to do in leadership requires a lot of self-reflection.
[00:23:07] And my view is that that's really difficult. To achieve on your own. Because if, if you are struggling, for example, with maintaining a sense of perspective, [00:23:20] that's really hard to get that back on your own. So having a coach, um, who can help you make sense of that and, and help you reframe your thinking, I think makes a huge difference.
[00:23:32] Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Just being that mirror to reflect back to help you reflect. Yeah. And, and it's something that, you know. We advocate, having that, that coaching, that mentoring, and obviously then you've [00:23:45] got the supervision element. Now that's kind of coming in lower and more is, is to me so important in leadership.
[00:23:51] So phase three then. Phase three is not so much about the inner work as so much as about conveying the calms, isn't it? Yeah. And leading with humanity and understanding. So there's quite a few themes covered in this chapter. Um, kindness, [00:24:10] integrity, empathy, optimism with humility. I wonder, could you just maybe talk to a few of those on why you think they're so important?
[00:24:19] So, so one of the things I would say, so the whole calm leadership model is, is quite an interesting one in many ways because the first two phases I think apply to. I would say everyone, maybe it's not, maybe it's just lots and lots of [00:24:35] people. But I would say the confront phase, imposter syndrome, paranoia, the adapt phase center perspective, embracing difficulty, you know, the leadership is difficult.
[00:24:44] I think that applies to everyone. The L phase, the, the leading of people I think is the bit that is most open to subjectivity because. I've made that phase about me and about the [00:25:00] things that I really value as a leader, and I know that it doesn't necessarily resonate the same for everyone else. So for me, when I think about the core values that I have, it very much is this notion that for me, leadership is about people, and leadership is about given service.
[00:25:18] And so things like. Humanity and kindness and honesty and [00:25:25] integrity and optimism are just natural things that are really important for leading other people. And I guess part of what that's based on is this idea that. You can't be a leader unless people are willing to, to, to follow you. And it's about the kind of leader that you are.
[00:25:43] It kind of, um, feeds into some of the, the, the, the Simon Sinek stuff. 'cause he talks a lot about the fact that [00:25:50] you know, that that leadership isn't about having a title. It's about the fact that you are someone that people want to. Go to for support, advice, guidance, for, for, for leadership, and that's why those things are really important to me.
[00:26:07] And I guess. To give a few examples of that. I, I think that it's always been important to me to treat people, [00:26:15] uh, uh, as human beings and to look for win-win solutions. Um, I think about, uh, situations that I've been involved in where you are having to make some really difficult decisions, and I always say to people that the thing about leadership is that.
[00:26:31] You are never going to be able to please everyone, and there are times where you are forced to make decisions that you [00:26:40] know are going to have a negative impact on people's working lives and sometimes even wider than that. So why would there be a need to be anything other than kind? Because there is enough.
[00:26:51] Cruelty and the impact of some of your decisions without adding to it by not being nice to people. Um, so my thing is, is that even if you're making difficult decisions, you're still always thinking about the people that you are impacting and how you can [00:27:05] support them through what might be a really sort of difficult challenge as well.
[00:27:08] So I think for me, those things are really important. And the other thing that I would say is that whole thing around the honesty and integrity. And so for me. It's this, this notion that, you know, people would prefer your worst truth over your best lie because ultimately it is about being honest. And you know, one example of that for [00:27:30] me, we had a situation a few years ago when I interviewed for a head of department role in my school and we had an internal candidate and an external candidate for the role, and I offered the job to the external candidate.
[00:27:44] Because I thought, you know, she was a stronger, stronger candidate. And I went to see the member of staff who was internal to have the conversation and say, look, I'm really sorry, but we all put it to the other [00:27:55] candidate. And he said to me, so can I assume that had she not been the stronger candidate, that I would've got the post, that it would've been really easy.
[00:28:06] Tam just said, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But I said, well, actually, I need to be honest with you that that's not the case. I didn't think you were quite ready. And so if I hadn't have offered her the post, I would've readvertised it. Now it turns out that [00:28:20] this person that I offered the job to went back to their own school and their head teacher then offered them more money and all the rest of it.
[00:28:27] So I got a call the following morning from her saying, I'm really sorry, but I'm, I can't accept the post. I was able to re advertise without any worry that I'd gone back on what I'd said. And I think for me, that was a really good indication of why [00:28:45] honesty works, because otherwise I, I, I would've either been stuck with having to offer the job to the person that I didn't think was quite ready or.
[00:28:54] I would've revealed that I hadn't been honest and I didn't wanna be in that situation. Do you think that's a trait that you've always led by, or do you think that's developed as you've got more confident maybes or Yeah, it's, it's, it's something that I've always [00:29:10] believed. Believed, yeah. But it isn't something that I've always been able to do.
[00:29:14] Yeah. And I think it takes a lot of confidence to do it. I do too. And I also think it is wrapped up in that quote about your, your worst truth is better than your best lie. And because ultimately it's about recognizing. By saying something that isn't going [00:29:35] to land well, you are going to upset someone. And of course we don't like upsetting people, so we try and avoid it.
[00:29:41] But ultimately, if you can get to the point where you believe that it's actually kinder to do that, then it is to pretend that there is some other alternate truth, then actually I think that is ultimately unkind because then you're not helping people to face [00:30:00] truth and to develop and learn. And I think that.
[00:30:02] Is that's where I've been able to make that switch in my head. That's given me that, that courage to say, no, I've got to tell them the truth because they deserve that as opposed to Yeah. Trying to protect their feelings. Yeah. 'cause you can be kind and honest, can't you? You can be kind and have difficult conversations and I suppose it's recognizing that, isn't it?
[00:30:21] And then, you know, as you say, having that confidence to, to have [00:30:25] that honesty, that ultimately, um, particularly in that scenario, um, it's obviously the best thing to do. In that chapter you also talk about, well, uh, it's a term we talk about actually about leaders creating the weather and, and that kind of ripple effect of calm leadership.
[00:30:39] A lot of the work we do in Still Human is, is about staff wellbeing and about that creating a culture. So in terms of your calm leadership, [00:30:50] in terms of the calm leadership, how has that impacted or how have you seen that impacting on your, on your team? Yeah, so I think, I think that, you know, my team are committed to, to leading with humanity.
[00:31:02] I think that's important and I think people know that within the school, and I think that that's, that's really critical as well. What I would say is one of the key things for me is for. About being [00:31:15] consistent with it. I, I like the idea that staff have a really good idea about what I'm going to say about something before they even come to ask me.
[00:31:25] Uh, and I think that's about being consistently the person that I am. And so ultimately, I think you are able to create, uh, a safety, a predictability that feels. Safe because you lead in that [00:31:40] way where you are thinking very carefully about what you do and how it impacts on other people. So I, I think for, for me, this idea of conveying calm is that if you lead in a way that doesn't overreact, that seeks solutions rather than drama that isn't about trying to tell people off or punish people, but it's about saying, let's work on the solution together.
[00:32:04] You know, [00:32:05] it's not blame, it's about accountability and how we move together as a team. I think those things create. Real safety within, within the work environment. Yeah. It's that psychological safety, isn't it? Which ultimately is what people want. It's what, as a species we want, we look to feel safe. And when we feel safe, then actually we can thrive.
[00:32:24] You kind of staff can thrive and grow because, because of that consistency, because of that [00:32:30] safety and, and really I think in creating any sort of culture, that's the ultimate goal. And if calm leadership is the mechanism by which to achieve that, then that's the way forward, isn't it? That absolutely is the final phase then maturing into the leader you are meant to be.
[00:32:46] And you highlight here, you kind of wrap it all up, don't you? But you highlight self-awareness, which, um, I think we've kind of touched on personal values and [00:32:55] discovering your why again, that Simon. Simon. Simon, yeah. So to what extent have you explored those areas in your kind of own leadership journey?
[00:33:03] Yeah, hugely, hugely. Um, I think one of the things that, that. That actually has, has helped a lot is listening to your gut. Again, you know, simonson, it talks about a lot trust in your gut. My, my sense is that your, your [00:33:20] instincts have figured out things about your actions or your intentions or your attitudes or your behaviors that your brain hasn't quite.
[00:33:29] Caught up with yet, and the number of times where I've been in situations where I felt that discomfort, and I'm not necessarily sure that I can articulate why, and then over time you realize, oh, do you know what it was? It was because I was somehow compromising [00:33:45] values that I hold dear. So what I've been able to do over time is to be really clear about what my core values are.
[00:33:57] What it's enabled me to do is to, at any given time, hold my behaviors or my decisions or my attitudes up against those core values and to say, well, actually, are we still aligned? [00:34:10] Because I know that as soon as I start to feel. A discomfort or an edginess or off balance or out of kilter in some way. It's usually because something that I'm doing is, is contravening those, those core values and I can work out what it is and then I can kind of rebalance myself.
[00:34:30] So that has been a really core part of me being able to. Have [00:34:35] that sense of self and authenticity within my own, within my own mind, as it were. Yeah, and I think it takes some work, doesn't it, to define those core values? It does. We kind of know what they are, but to be able to articulate them, I think that takes quite a bit of work, doesn't it?
[00:34:51] So you've done things, have you done things like sort of journaling or, or what kind of. Tools or mechanisms have, have you used So the, the, the, the coaching that [00:35:00] I've had Yeah. Has helped with that a lot because when you have a really good coaching session, one of the things that happens is you kind of do the kind of the you.
[00:35:09] Why do you feel that way? Why do you feel that way? Why do you feel that way? And then you kind of get to, oh, I see what it is. And I think that has, has helped a lot. I also think going through adversity helps tremendously because. You learn so much about [00:35:25] yourself when you go through really difficult times and you, and you start to work out what really matters.
[00:35:32] And so I think that has helped me a lot. Journaling is something that I've kind of dipped in and out of I, I've never been able to do it as consistently as I think would be. Really useful, but I think that helps as well. And I think, you know, the other thing is just like, you know, regularly reflecting on the decisions that I've made, that [00:35:50] looking back and kind of thinking about why I made a decision at a particular time and what I was thinking.
[00:35:55] And I think those things kind of help you sort of. Identify the common threads between the decisions that you take and why. Yes. Just that mechanism by which to reflect, isn't it? And to kind of, yeah. Keep revisiting as you say that self-awareness is so important. So you talk really honestly a, a couple of points in the book about the [00:36:15] fact that you are a black leader.
[00:36:16] Yes. And that ad is a specific. Dimension to to, to your experience. And, and I know you kind of, on the one hand don't want to make a big thing of it, but, but it kind of, you recognize it as well. So I want to, can you just share a little bit about your thoughts around that? Yeah, so I think one of the things for me is that there are not many of us, and I think [00:36:40] that that makes a difference.
[00:36:42] I also think that, that there's a, there's a big issue around your, your values and to what extent those values are influenced by your culture, your upbringing. Um, because as we know, you know, every culture. Ethnicity country has a set of cultures that is often [00:37:05] associated with things that are to do with your upbringing, your parents' beliefs, and so on and so forth.
[00:37:10] And one of the things that I found really interesting actually, was that whole question is to. Whether the conflicts between values that I held and maybe people that I led were in conflict because of being from a different background or culture. So there's [00:37:30] a real kind of deep entrenched, uh, potential conflict there.
[00:37:36] One of the other things that I often wondered about and, and this is where that paranoia thing comes in as well, is whenever there's a situation where people are less cooperative or more challenging, there's always that sense of like, is that. What, what is that? Because is that because they view me in a [00:37:55] certain way?
[00:37:55] They have a certain expectation about what I can achieve or what I can't achieve. And that was something that I thought was interesting. And I remember when I, when I first became a head teacher, um, the previous head that had been at the school before me, she used to hold a Thursday morning parent surgery.
[00:38:13] So basically every Thursday morning parents could just book in and come in and, and, and meet with her. [00:38:20] And so I decided, um, not for very long, I ha a hasten to add, but I decided that this was a good idea and I would continue with this parent surgery. The very first one that I had, there was this parent that turned up, uh, a, a white middle class parent, white middle class woman who turned up and she sat in mouth office and she said, I don't actually have any real.
[00:38:43] Questions for [00:38:45] you. I just wanted to come and suss you out a little bit. And I remember thinking, oh my God, the elegance of that. But I remember like that sense that, that must be because I'm a blackhead. It must be. She said, oh, I think you're a bit new laborer. And I just thought, isn't that, isn't that, isn't it really interesting?
[00:39:06] And I, I remember thinking to myself, the fact that she felt [00:39:10] able and empowered. To come and say that to me was quite, was quite shocking. And, and, and one of the things about being a blackhead, and, and I, and I, and I, I refer to this in the book as well, is that. It's not the idea that everything is down to racism.
[00:39:29] Nobody believes that, you know, you don't think every single interaction you have that doesn't go the way you want, is to do with racism [00:39:35] because you know that, that it might be or it might not be. But what it is, it's, it's the it, it's the burden of having to even consider it that when something happens, there is a part of you that always says.
[00:39:50] Is this because, and it's, it's, and it's the not knowing that actually is the challenging bit. And I think that's something that, that you, you deal [00:40:00] with a lot as a, as a black senior leader. Yeah. And you know, I, I think it's absolutely right that you, you address it in this book, it sits and it works and it's kind of part of your leadership journey.
[00:40:13] And there's so much, honestly in this book, Apache. Um, I think it's such a great read. I think. You've done a brilliant job. You must be very proud of it. Do you keep giving people it as gifts? I do. Yeah. Yeah. I've gotta start [00:40:25] selling it more than I give it. I bought mine just for transparency, just in case anybody's wondering.
[00:40:33] Um, but yeah, it is, it's a brilliant read. So just a couple of questions then before we finish. One is just around your own wellbeing and really, um. We always ask guests about what you do for your own wellbeing, but I, I kind of feel like you've addressed it in the book by your [00:40:50] psychological wellbeing and how you look after yourself.
[00:40:52] And you are also obviously a huge football fan. Anything else that you do specifically to look after your wellbeing? Yeah, so I, I, I try to, um, I try to keep work and play separate, so I, I always say that look, work, work life balance. Isn't necessarily a thing. It depends on your priority at any given time.
[00:41:14] Uh, so, you know, there, [00:41:15] there are some points where actually there is no balance because there's stuff you have to do and you have to do it, and you've gotta devote the time. And so therefore work becomes a priority and you accept that. And there are other times where actually you put work to one side and say, this is not about work.
[00:41:29] Now I'm gonna do the thing that, that, that really works for me. So I think one of the things for me is, is, is. Is reconciling yourself with that and saying, right when I work, I work. And when I [00:41:40] play, I play. And it's trying to make sure that that, that that's the focus and, and recognizing that it might not always be I balance.
[00:41:46] Um, but yeah, the football's a big thing for me. I'm a huge Arsenal fan as anyone that knows me is aware. Um, so I go to football a lot on the season ticket holder at Arsenal. Spending time with the family obviously, um, is, is always important. And so. Yeah, it's just trying to make sure that I do the things that I enjoy.
[00:42:04] And the [00:42:05] other thing that I should never admit in public, but I will do is, um, I'm a, a huge fan of football manager on the laptop as well, so, so I've played that since I was a child, and actually the game has evolved and it's so much better than when I was a child. So I don't see why I shouldn't en enjoy it now.
[00:42:23] You and my husband both. It's important stuff. Yeah. It seems to be a [00:42:30] popular wellbeing tool. I get to be awesome. Venga. Yeah. Brilliant. Okay, so final question then. We ask all our guests this for some words of wisdom. If you were to suggest one kind thing. Our listeners could do for themselves today, what would it be?
[00:42:50] I would say consistent with the theme in my book is, is to [00:42:55] be you. To be you, be unapologetically you, be yourself. Because that is the kindest thing you can do for yourself is to is, is to be you. And I think one of the things that, that, that for me is really important. And you know, coming back to the thing we talked about at the beginning about.
[00:43:15] Leadership being something that can be a burnout job, but it doesn't have to be, you know, [00:43:20] leading for a long period of time, but remaining positive, enthusiastic, energetic, and focused and, and, and, and all of those things. I often think that that my ability to be. The leader that I always wanted to be, to be the best version of me, plays a really critical role within that because my ability to sleep well at night is not based upon the fact that I [00:43:45] never have to make tough decisions.
[00:43:47] It's based upon the reality and the acceptance that I'm making, the best decisions that I can make, being true to who I am and the kind of person that I want to be, and the kind of leader that I want to be. And so I find that. Allowing myself to be me is the kindest and best wellbeing thing that, that I can do.
[00:44:08] Gorgeous. I [00:44:10] love it. Thank you. No, thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks for your time, and we'll share the details of the book with everyone and yeah, well done for, uh, a book from a math teacher is really impressive. I mean, I'll just say that. Yeah, absolutely. No, no, no, because I, I've, I, I think it all the time and I, yeah.
[00:44:29] I should have never written a book as a math teacher, but there you go. I've done, Patrick, thank you so much for your [00:44:35] time. Thank you. Thanks for having me.