Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
Hi Tom, good morning.
Hey Paul, good morning, good to see you.
Good to see you.
It's been a little break.
Yeah, you've been...
Three weeks.
You've been traveling.
Yes.
Yeah.
I have...
Traveled through Korea.
Parts of Japan.
You've been traveling in
Japan that turned into Korea.
Right.
Yeah.
Okay.
Somewhat stoically.
We, I don't know.
Okay.
We turned, we basically, due to
some visa issues, we turned our...
What was supposed to be our
honeymoon trip in Japan.
Oh, I didn't know that that was the
significance of this trip, actually.
Well, we rebranded it.
I see.
After it turned into kind of a visa
fiasco, we rebranded it to just a trip.
I see.
Honeymoon to just a trip.
Okay.
I didn't know that it was ever branded
as the honeymoon trip, actually.
Yeah, well.
You and your wife have been married
for four or five years at this point?
Yeah, it's been four, yeah,
we're about to, next year we're
going to host our wedding party.
Like a five year be a five
year anniversary party.
Yes, okay, got it.
Yeah.
Got it.
So, yeah, so we, so anyway, so it started
off as honeymoon trip, then we found some
budget airline tickets and, and there were
all these like little things that happened
that started to kind of chip away at, is
this the honeymoon or is this just a trip?
I see.
And then by the time we got to the visa
fiasco where we couldn't even get into
Japan, it very much became just a trip.
Just a trip.
Okay.
That's, I think, nice that you
have the flexibility to downgrade
it to just a trip and it doesn't
have to feel like the honeymoon.
Yeah.
Maybe that's a stoic thing to do.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Instead of saying, well, this is our
honeymoon and we, we ended up in a
country we weren't planning for and,
and don't have any hotel spooks.
Yeah.
It's a, it's a, a way of
controlling what you can control.
You can, you can't control
whether or not the Japanese
authorities let you into Japan.
You can control if you call
this trip your honeymoon or not.
So that's what you did.
Yeah.
Very nice.
So how about you?
What's what's been going on?
Well Less exciting stuff than
that, but we mentioned this before
the before we started recording.
One thing I did this past week was I was
summoned in San Francisco for jury duty.
Which has me, had me thinking
about Marcus a little bit because
obviously his philosophy is very
interested in the notion of duty.
Which is some, which is, which has always
distanced me from him because I've always,
duty has, it just doesn't, I get that it
was a relevant concept in his life, but
it's always something where I'm kind of
like, puzzled to figure out where the
concept of duty fits in my own life.
And this was a very literal form of
duty that, I have to say, maybe put
even more distance between me and Marcus
because if this is what duty is all
about, let me say, I am not that much
interested in duty because it was really
boring and did not connect to earth.
Some people have, who I know,
have done jury duty and felt sort
of enlivened or connected to the
democratic society in which we live.
And I have to say that
was not my experience.
It felt very bureaucratic and boring and
like, frankly, a big waste of my time.
Yeah.
Which...
It's funny that you say it makes
you feel disconnected from Marcus.
The fact that you even showed
up makes me feel like you're...
Very connected to . I, I would,
I just can't even imagine.
I've received these
things in the mail before.
You just don't go.
Never.
Yeah.
Boy, it's, yeah.
It seems ridiculous.
Yeah.
I, I guess that is what I, and,
and you never get in trouble.
I don't know.
I don't think so.
They're not gonna just, maybe they take
something outta my tax return later.
They're not gonna, you're gonna get pulled
over at some point, and they're gonna
take you away in handcuffs because you
Well, I just, I didn't see it, you know?
Yeah.
I guess the end of the day that,
don't we all, I mean, yeah.
It's a, it's a letter in the mail.
Yeah.
In theory, I guess I think we do have
some sort of legal responsibility to
be responsive to letters we receive
in the mail, but I think it's a good
argument that in practice we're not.
I moved.
It's, yeah.
I didn't see it.
It's, yeah.
Yep.
I, what it reveals is how
much of a rule follower I am.
And just if somebody tells me I
have to do something or I'm breaking
the law, I just do it blindly.
Yeah.
I may take a page out of your book
next time I get one of these summons
because, although now I'm, now I'm.
On record as the kind of guy
who shows up for jury duty.
Well, you're going to start getting a
lot of other inbound duty based requests.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I might have to move.
They've identified you as a sucker.
So now it's going to be like,
oh, your duty is to claim
this part of the sidewalk.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, okay.
Yeah, well.
Good for you.
Yeah.
So, well, look, I think Marcus, on
one hand, he's like, yeah, this is
the job, and he would definitely.
He would definitely complain about it,
but then he would, you know, write a lot
about how it's nature and we shouldn't
be opposed to nature or whatever.
That said, he also hates, like, people
beneath him with petty concerns.
Yes, for sure.
And there were certainly plenty of
those sort of little tyrants present.
Here the clerk or whoever who's
trying to orchestrate people to do,
you know, and is yelling at everyone
to listen and sit down and whatever.
It really felt like being in
kindergarten again at times sort
of like being treated like a child.
I, the thing I guess I was thinking
about with Marcus and his relationship
to this particular form of duty is that.
You know, he had these duties to his
people and to his soldiers and to
really sort of present Factors in
his life that informed things that
he needed to do right now in a very
sort of concrete and meaningful way.
Yeah, and that's that's I think what
I meant earlier when I said that
this creates distance because to
me that's not really a I don't see
most of the stuff that I do in my
life as coming from a place of duty.
I get to do stuff mostly because
I want to do it, not because I
feel like it's an obligation to
somebody else or people in my life.
I wonder with this form of duty, jury
duty, which is a much more abstract form
of duty than the kind of thing that Marcus
is usually talking about, I think, when
he talks about duty, if he really would.
Give a shit about it.
Sorry, break that down.
What is, what do you mean
by abstract form of duty?
You, to me it's abstract in the sense
that we were obligated to jury to do jury
duty as adults in a democracy because
there's this constitutionally enshrined
right to trial by a jury of your peers.
But if you don't do jury duty,
It doesn't fuckin matter.
Whereas if Marcus betrays his duty
to protect his people, or to lead
his, soldiers effectively, it matters
in a very meaningful way the first
time he fails to meet that duty.
Whereas jury duty is an example
of a duty that a huge swath of the
population doesn't even bother with.
Even though in theory it is a duty
that we have all agreed that we share.
So there's a difference
in the kinds of duties.
thoughtful approach to breaking
down the various duties and
their actual importance.
It seems difficult.
I, I wonder if someone like Marcus
would just black and white it.
Just, there's duty and there's not
duty and you know, because, because
I, I, I think I would guess that a
lot of, you know, he could, he could
tell himself, well, I could do all
of this orchestration on the front.
I can do it all from Rome.
It's why I had very capable generals.
I don't actually need to be
here in the rain in my tents.
You know, I, I wonder where that,
that line starts to, if you're really
trying to take every task and decide,
okay, is this actually important duty
or is this the, like, abstract duty?
It just starts to get really difficult.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a fair point.
And in some ways, yeah, that's, it
feels like stoicism and sometimes it's
kind of about like a little bit of
blind adherence in a way where it's
like you recognize that something is
a duty and rather than philosophizing
about it, you just shut up and go do it.
Yeah, it's about, it's a philosophy
of like minimizing just, like, the
things that are frustrating in life,
and one of them is trying to constantly
moralize about every little thing.
So you just kind of, you just apply a
framework that's where you don't have
to make these decisions and you just,
and that way you live a happier life.
Right.
There is one, I feel like, decision
you do have to make, though, that
he, is about like how to align.
Your duty and your actions and your
morality, basically, like he, I, I think
he's, he does encounter situations where
he's like, you have to figure out what
your duty is in a particular situation.
It's not always.
Oh, sure.
Yeah.
There are times where that's, yeah.
I mean, if you get a letter
from jury duty, then it's pretty
obvious what your duty is.
But yeah, there are times where
the hard part, I guess, is, is
when it's, when it's abstract.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Interesting.
I'm hoping we'll get more, I guess, maybe,
on this subject, because it does feel to
me like duty is a notion that underpins
a lot of this philosophy, but he hasn't
actually, maybe it's because it was
obvious to him what was meant by that or
how it, it doesn't feel like we've spent a
ton of time so far in the text discussing
that actual part of the of the philosophy.
That's true.
Yeah, he doesn't talk about how he
decides what's duty and what's not duty.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because no one's actually
telling him what to do, right?
Right.
Yeah.
He doesn't get letters from.
Yeah.
And I think it just goes to that saying
he assumes a certain set of morals or
whatever that like, the reader shares
with him and therefore it's on, or like,
this is of course how we figure out
what our duties are in the real world.
Yeah.
Yeah, so anyway, hoping to
hear more from Marcus about the
subject of duty, just in general.
That's what's been on my mind.
Makes sense.
Makes sense.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, the one last thought,
we might cut this out, but like...
There is this element, you know,
I think we've, we've both been
skirting around this problem where
you can take a thing that you have
in life and as soon as you label it
duty in some way it feels negative.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Like you took a thing that you were
doing and you called it duty and now
it's something that you have, you know,
like, you know, finally I get to go home
and draw about how shitty my duty was.
Right.
Maybe that's not, maybe that's not
how Marcus would think about it.
Yes, that's an interesting point.
But it's like, you know, there's
this, you could have framed it as,
Ah, I got to be part of our democracy.
I have an opportunity to
participate in our exciting
and dynamic democratic systems.
Right, but it's, but no, it's called jury
duty and right away it's like, Here are
the three conditions on which you can,
Yeah, you can get out, you can get out.
And here's the fine if
you don't participate.
They don't pitch you on the positives.
Yes, it's true.
They don't talk about like, You know,
they don't send you a video of, a
clipped video of all the various
wonderful moments that were created
in this democratic experience.
Yeah, well, that's a pretty hard video,
or I'm not sure what kind of moments they
would be clipping together in that video.
Imagine a little, like, you know,
documentary style, like you know,
people talking about how their life
changed when they realized that, You
know, they're actually, it's not,
they, they were so individualistic,
they felt so isolated in, in.
Oh, the way that doing jury
duty changed their life.
Yeah, and they realized they're actually
part of a community and the fabric of
this, you know, of this society in a, in
a really meaningful way and jury duty was
the thing that opened their eyes to that.
Yeah, that's true.
That is definitely not the, the
way that jury duty is framed,
at least in San Francisco.
It is very much about obligation.
I, I think that's a really
interesting point about the.
duty being sort of a loaded term,
at least for us culturally, that
it comes across as negative.
And I, I guess my knee jerk reaction to
that is, I think that might be a sort of
modern American thing of like, we're so
obsessed with liberty and freedom that
anything, that duty implies obligation
and obligation implies something negative
because it's, it's at odds with freedom.
Interesting.
So, so maybe you...
I think there are...
That's the lens in which, sorry that's
the lens in which I read Marcus, too.
He's like constantly, he's
like, he's the emperor.
He has, in theory, the best life ever.
Yeah.
And he's constantly, like, what I
read as complaining about his duties.
Yeah.
But maybe when he says
duty, he's like, honored.
Yeah.
By, you know, his, the
role that he's been given.
And maybe he's not such a
negative Nancy after all.
Yeah, that's interesting how much of
that is just imposed by our reading
or the, our, or the translation.
Yeah.
I do think there's, I mean, I think it's
natural even in, in times and places
that revere the concept of obligation
or duty a little bit more to still
feel like, damn, it's annoying that I
have to do this thing right now, even
if it is also a source of honor or
connection or, or other desirable things.
I, I wonder if we are sort of
the peak of the pendulum swinging
one way in terms of the, our
negativity of the, the concept of.
It's a positive framing and a
negative framing if you choose to
look at it that way, and we are
culturally very much on the negative
side of what that word means to us.
Yeah, I guess relative to
recent history for sure.
Yeah.
Who knows where we're headed, Tom?
Yeah.
Seems like not, yeah, that's It seems like
not an accident maybe that this particular
text is so popular with the folks in the
military in the United States for whom
duty is a much more relevant concept than.
The rest of the population.
That's right.
Shall we dig in?
So we are in book 3, the 6th bullet point,
or whatever we're calling these entries.
It's yet another listicle here.
So entry number 6 in book 3.
I'm excited for this one.
Yes, we've cheated ahead and seen
at least one line that really
intrigues us at the end of this entry.
So, here we go.
Number 6.
If, at some point in your life, you should
come across anything better than justice,
honesty, self control, courage, than
a mind satisfied that it has succeeded
in enabling you to act rationally, and
satisfied to accept what's beyond its
control, if you find anything better than
that, embrace it without reservations.
It must be an extraordinary thing
indeed, and enjoy it to the full.
If nothing presents itself that's superior
to the spirit that lives within, the
one that has subordinated individual
desires to itself, that discriminates
among impressions, that has broken free
of physical temptations, as Socrates
used to say, and subordinated itself to
the gods, and looks out for human beings
welfare, if you find that there's nothing
more important or valuable than that,
then don't make room for anything but it.
For anything that might lead you
astray, tempt you off the road,
and leave you unable to devote
yourself completely to achieving
the goodness that is uniquely yours.
It would be wrong for anything to stand
between you and attaining goodness
as a rational being and a citizen.
Anything at all.
The applause of the crowd, high
office, wealth, or self indulgence.
All of them might seem to be compatible
with it for a while, but suddenly
they control us and sweep us away.
So make your choice straightforwardly
once and for all and stick to it.
Choose what's best.
Best is what benefits me.
As a rational being, then follow through.
Or just as an animal, then
say so and stand your ground
without making a show of it.
Just make sure you've
done your homework first.
Wow.
Interesting.
This, this feels like new territory
to me for Marcus a little bit.
It's not just the same rehashing
of, of ideas we've already heard.
I kind of like the rhetorical
device he's using about like, go
ahead and find something better.
Yeah.
Then it's kind of
braggadocious almost in a way.
Like if you find anything better Yeah.
Than living, go for it.
Yeah.
Problem.
Yeah.
Must, must be awesome.
Yeah.
Good.
Good for you.
Can we try to steel man this for a second?
Because he gives some examples of things
that might contest for being better than
justice, honesty, self control, courage.
And the examples he gives are
applause of the crowd, high
office, wealth, or self indulgence.
Feels pretty, pretty easy to
choose between, I mean like.
Yeah, that seems like an obvious thing.
But sort of putting our maybe modern,
modern framing hats on, are there
any other things that could contest?
I mean, I guess what I struggle
with is, he's asking the question,
can you come across anything
better than justice and honesty?
Better how?
Cause I think what he, part of what
he's saying is like, there are these
other things that will tempt you in
the short term that are good for a
little while, they're, you know, wealth
and applause and whatever are maybe
good for a bit, but then you know,
then they, they twist you or whatever.
And these other bigger virtues, they're
better in the, because they're in
the more abstract big picture way.
So how do we decide which one
is, or like, how do, it's almost
like you can, you can behave in a
short term way or a long term way.
And obviously the long term
way is better unless you find
something even better than that.
And it's kind of like, yeah, duh.
But in practice, how do we identify
when we're choosing these values
over the, over the short term thing?
That's a, that's a sort of winding
answer to the, to your question.
Yeah, it's a time frame question, I guess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's interesting.
It, it, it almost feels kind of like.
It's, it's like proof by intimidation
or something here, where he's kind of
saying like, you know what, I've got,
I've got it all figured out, like, I,
I, I've seen the options available and
I'm pretty sure the best thing on the
table is truth and justice and honesty
but go ahead, yeah, do your, do your
thing, whatever, yeah, you find something
better than truth, honesty, justice,
self control, yeah, go for it okay.
So, okay, I have a few angles.
Yeah.
Here.
One of them is, let's say you're
not born to be the emperor.
Yes.
I think that's a great, great
response to every single thing.
And like wealth.
Yes.
High office.
And these things matter because,
you know, there is a, there is a
degree to which being really having
like, you know, no access to, to any
of those things impacts your, your
life and your future generations
life in really meaningful ways.
Yeah.
And like, the honest and just and self
controlled thing to do is just to be like,
well, this is, this is the world I was
born into, I should go plow the field.
Yeah.
But there are elements of like, well,
this is, this system is not fair.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This, I think, I mean...
I agree with you, obviously.
Again, I think it gets back to a
point we've made in previous episodes
about a lot of the advice that Marcus
is giving here is advice for Roman
emperors and not for everyone else.
Because I think you're right.
This is top of the
Maslow's hierarchy stuff.
This is how to navigate the world when
you already have all that stuff covered.
Well, so maybe you're right.
Maybe he gives the this is
what's best for a Roman emperor.
But then he goes on, he has
that amazing line best is what
benefits me, italicized me.
Yeah.
And so maybe, and then he
talks about like, so make your
choice straightforwardly, once
and for all, and stick to it.
So maybe what he's saying is like, look,
so if you were born, if you were born in
an unjust system, if you're, if you're a
political prisoner in a gulag, and just
the world is not fair, and if you know
that, you know, justice and honesty and
self control will just get you killed, and
it's, it doesn't make the world any better
if you just die, then have a different
set of principles, but stick to it.
And there's a beauty to like,
just living a principled life.
And if your principles are, you know,
like, this part of the system is not fair,
and unfortunately the only way for me to
survive is to do these different things
that would be considered cheating in a...
You know, outside of the Gulag,
then I have to do those things.
And I should, I, I, I, there's no
room for feeling bad about that.
Right.
And, yeah, I, I think that is a, that's a,
that's an interesting, sensible reading.
So that's a way in which this
is not just advice for emperors.
It's actually advice
for anyone more broadly.
And yeah, you could frame, I think, what
you're just describing as a commitment to
justice or something like that in a play.
You know, if you're handed
an unjust set of cards.
then fighting back against a system
like that is a commitment to justice.
And therefore it is kind of in
line with his philosophy here.
Yeah.
Yes, I like reading this as
like a, it's, you know, pick
a philosophy and commit to it.
And, he's got this thing as a
rational being, then follow through.
Or just as an animal, question
mark, then just, then say so.
I'm doing this as an animal.
Stand your ground without making a
show of it, which is kind of awesome.
So he's basically saying like, okay,
so if you're, if you're in sort
of an underground and you're like,
okay, I'm going to be Robin Hood.
And like, basically be Robin Hood.
Don't be like a senseless backstabber.
Like if you're going to steal from people,
like have some principles around it.
Right.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
And then this bit, I mean, this
is just make sure you've done it.
Yeah.
Boy, does that feel like I would
really like to know what the.
Translator got up to you there
because there's no way he wrote
it in those terms back in the day.
Yeah.
Just make sure you've
done your homework first.
What do you, I mean, what
could he even mean by that?
Homework for him is this.
It's this act of reflection
and identifying whether or not
you're operating as a rational
being or an animal, I guess.
Well, I view it as just make
sure you have your principles.
Just whatever you're doing,
make sure they're principled.
Yeah, that's homework, is
lining up your principles.
Yeah.
Well, because I don't think
you get to choose if you're a
rational being or an animal.
Or maybe you do.
Maybe you're e saying, like,
you can choose to have your
principles be those of an animal.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, I feel like this is about
Yeah, there's some course of action
you want to take, and you need to
ask yourself the question, Why is
it that I want to do this thing?
Is it because I'm a rational
being, or is it because I'm, I have
some other base instinct that's,
that's making me want to do this?
And then he's saying, Okay, well,
depending on which one of those it is.
There's some base instinct that
at least just says something.
Yeah, that's, that does seem different
than what I guess I'm accustomed to
him, to him saying, which is mostly
about the sort of denial of the
base, like, So frequently he sort
of says, if it's your animal brain
telling you, you know, don't do that.
Instead subordinate yourself
to your mind or whatever.
And here he's saying, no,
it's okay to follow through on
things your animal mind wants.
But be clear and yeah, announce that
that's what you're doing, I guess.
I dig it.
I like it.
Cause, you know, this makes
me think of like, what makes
a character likable in a...
It's not that I don't have a book or
something, it's that they're consistent.
It's that I can see that they
have a set of principles.
Like, you might be the kind of dopey,
hedonistic, kind of does things for
themselves person, but as long as you
are up front about that, and you're
consistent, the thing that really
bothers me in TV shows is where...
When, when the character all of a
sudden switches and does something
completely out of character.
Right.
And it's like, oh, well,
I just no longer believe.
Yeah, I don't know you anymore.
I don't know you anymore.
I don't trust you.
And that is much more concerning than
just, okay, this is my friend who's
just only talks about themselves.
And that's fine.
This is what, they're like.
Yeah.
And that's okay.
Like, I know what I'm signing up for.
Yeah.
Yep.
I agree.
I think this is a, he's advocating
a form of transparency that's like,
or inconsistency that's just like.
Yes, it's okay to do animal things if
you say, Hello, I'm being an animal.
This is why I feel the way that I do.
And this is why I will
be doing this thing.
Animal hair.
Yeah, exactly.
Yep.
I think that's right.
Yeah, I agree.
I can get on board with that.
I...
So we haven't actually talked that
much about this sentence, about best
is what benefits me, italicized.
I can't...
I totally tell, I almost see, like, so
there's a, there's an em dash before,
at least in my copy, there's this dash
before it that almost seems like it's
maybe in quotations kind of, like what
he says afterwards is responding to the
concept of best is what benefits me.
Yeah.
Because I can't really, it seems a
little bit it doesn't totally fit with
the rest of the, the entry here to me,
this concept of best is what benefits.
Me.
Well, I think, so I think the, I guess
the way I read it is the first part
of this is all about like, well, for
me as the emperor, these are the right
things and those are the wrong things.
Yeah.
But then the last three sections, the
section starting with, so make your
choice straightforward against Ferala
and stay to it, choose what's best.
Right.
And he's saying like, he's kind
of saying, being open to someone
else might have a different set of
principles that make sense for them.
Right.
And so best is what benefits me.
That best is what?
It depends on who you are, basically.
Yeah.
Okay.
He, he's just defining the concept of
best, like sort of, it's like, but he's
making the point that it's relative.
That's relative.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I see.
That's interesting.
I, I, that seems like a very, I mean,
best is what benefits me seems like
the most individualistic, like yeah.
Selfish kind of philosophy imaginable.
Basically.
It's like some.
Wall Street, Gordon Gekko stuff
and yeah, it, I don't know.
That does that seem odd to you at all?
Well, that's the, that's the paradox
of stoicism where I think if you're
someone who thinks stoicism is
silly, then you, then I think you see
this as a big contradiction, right?
I think if you're someone who's one
of those like stoicism believers, you.
The reason you're such a big believer
in Stoicism is because you also believe
that these are, not only are these things
right, and just, and honest, and duty,
but they're also things that benefit you.
Yeah, yeah, that those things are aligned.
And that everything, the whole world
is aligned, and that like, you know,
like, the reason you follow Stoicism is
because it makes you a happier person.
Yeah.
It's not a philosophy of like your
bottom lip, it's a philosophy of how to
live happily under any circumstances.
Yeah, yeah, I like that.
I think that's a, that's a good point.
Yeah, there is still something about
the way some of these things are
phrased that reads on a sentence by
sentence level as like the opposite
of the thing that I think we're
supposed to take away from the text.
And this is an example of that, actually.
Part of what this philosophy is about is,
yes, there's this big picture alignment
between you living this self realized
version of yourself and everything else
going well in the world, and this feels
like the exact opposite of that philosophy
to me, on a way to read this text.
Like, if you're not generous to Marcus in
his private journal, there's a way to read
this and this guy, like, just flip
flops from sentence to sentence.
Yep.
And we're, I guess, it's fun to try
to do the version where you're...
You just give Marcus all the superpowers?
Yes, I agree.
I think it's, I think that's the right
way to read any text pretty much, is to be
charitable to the author and try to meet
them wherever they sort of put the text.
But yes, I think maybe the point is
for me, sometimes that takes work,
and my lazy reading this is like,
whoa, I don't know if I like this.
And then I think you're right, that if
we give him the more generous reading,
I find myself more aligned with him.
That I would have been lazily.
Cool.
This was awesome.
Yeah, okay.
Number seven.
Never regard something as doing you
good if it makes you betray a trust,
or lose your sense of shame, or
makes you show hatred, suspicion, ill
will, or hypocrisy, or a desire for
things best done behind closed doors.
If you can privilege your own
mind, your guiding spirit, and your
reverence for its powers, that that
should keep you clear of dramatics
of wailing and gnashing of teeth.
You won't need solitude, or
a cast of thousands either.
Above all, you'll be
free of fear and desire.
And how long your body will contain
the soul that inhabits it will
cause you not a moment's worry.
If it's time for you
to go, leave willingly.
As you would to accomplish anything
that can be done with grace and honor.
And concentrate on this,
your whole life long.
For your mind to be in the right state.
The state a rational,
civic mind should be in.
Yeah.
Yeah, that one's hard
to argue with, Marcus.
This is just, this is just
a rehash of everything.
I agree.
This one is, be honest, and
transparent, and consistent, and...
And principled.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And yeah, that happened in my life.
Yeah.
So here's something very specific.
Yeah.
Very specific example.
It's HR policies.
Sure.
So we're a startup that basically
has to build HR policies on the go.
Right.
So there are these things that
happen where it's like, okay, this
employee would like to go remote.
Yeah.
We have a, our current HR policy
as written down in Notion is that
the policy is two days a week.
Yeah.
So, you know, I guess what this chapter
is saying, or this section is saying
is like, never regard something as, as
betraying trust or a sense of shame.
Like, there's a way to treat that and be
like, Well, this person's really good.
And so we're just gonna, I mean, it kind
of feels silly because like, we're not
going to let other people do this, but
we're going to let this person do it.
And then you live with that and
it sort of like eats away at you.
And it's just, you make a
secret deal with this person.
Always the wrong decision.
And so the thing that, you
know, this, this advocates for
is just, everything's a rule.
If you, any, there, everything should
always be explainable by what's
written down in your HR policies.
And so if you're making, you know.
Yeah, that's true for compensation.
That's true for remote work policy.
That's true for everything.
Yep.
And that feels really good.
And then you can just sleep at night.
No problem.
Yep.
Yeah.
I, I, yeah, I th I think that's a nice
application of, of what's going on here.
I agree that, that feels like the kind of
situation that Marcus is talking about,
basically, where there's a temptation to
do the, okay, we're gonna make a secret
exception to our policy because it's
convenient for us right now to do so.
Yeah.
And he, what he's
warning this is actually.
Like advice of the
highest order basically.
Yeah.
It's like classic.
Aha.
You have found yourself
in a timeless situation.
Yeah.
Let me, let me guide how be happy.
Let me guide you how to, to,
to deal with that situation.
Yeah.
Anyone comes to you and has a problem.
Yes.
This is typically just your
job as a sounding board.
Yes.
I mean, yeah.
This, this is, strikes me as just
very, very, very good advice.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think.
Hard advice to follow a lot of the time
because there's, there's usually if
you're tempted not to follow it, it's
because you feel like there's some very
good reason why this one time doing
something sneaky or whatever is worth
it, but he's saying no, it never is.
I'm trying to think if
there are exceptions.
I can't help, you know,
like, I guess our job.
It's fun to always.
Yeah, or to, yeah, to be
little, little nerds, yeah.
Yes, I mean, I think in practice,
there's, lots of people don't follow
this all the time, and there are, you
know, there are selfish and sneaky
ways to get ahead in the world, and
people get away with it, and sometimes
are, are happier, maybe, as a result.
I guess you could argue that they
just have, is there an argument
there that they still do this, they
just have different principles?
And that they, you know, if you're
Robin Hood and you've already
decided that it's okay to steal
from the rich, Yeah, then it's fine.
You don't feel bad.
You follow, you don't feel betrayal,
trust or sense of shame because
you have different principles.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, so that's definitely yeah.
I, so he's being vague.
Right.
If you can privilege your own mind,
your guide, your guiding spirit, and
your reverence for its powers, that
should keep you clear of dramatics.
Clear of dramatics.
I love it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Of wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Above all, you'll be free
from fear and desire.
So yes, it's pretty, like, what
does it mean to privilege your
own mind and your guiding spirit?
Like, yeah, so maybe if you've, yeah, if
your spirit is ill, or yeah, whatever,
it's okay to do these things, then, yeah.
He's not necessarily even discouraging
you from living in accordance with a
sort of nasty philosophy, potentially.
He's just saying, live consistently
with your values, and you, yeah,
you won't stay up at night.
Yeah.
Which becomes a little bit less exciting
as advice, I feel like, like, it,
that, then I'm, then I'm kind of like
well, the more interesting question
is how to sort of channel your spirit
and your mind towards good things
and the things you, you want to do.
And he seems to treat those as
almost fixed, that your mind and
your spirit are what they are.
Oh, right.
Is another way of, if I, if I regurgitate
that back, is it like, The more
interesting part of this is not, is how
to set your principles, not stick to
your principles, oh yeah, of course,
but how do you set your principles.
Yeah, that's a better way of
saying what I was trying to say.
Yes, exactly.
That is the, I mean, I think that's
a bigger picture remark on the
text, that there's a lot of this
kind of like, Life is about living
consistently with your principles and
morals and then to me, I'm kind of
like, yes, but what should those be?
Yeah, and he justice, honesty,
self control and courage.
Okay, and yeah, it's great.
Yes.
I've heard all those listed before.
How do I?
Yeah, exactly.
Well, what if justice and honesty seem
like they're at odds with one another?
How do I sort through that situation?
No guidance.
That's true.
So I think I mean again, I think
we've made this point before.
My feeling is that He feels that that
is beyond the scope of this book, or
it's already addressed by the, the
reader has already sorted through
that, and this is something else.
The reader himself has
already sorted through it.
Yes, yeah, he has already figured
out how to deal with that, and
that's not what he's writing about.
Nice.
Okay, I'm intrigued by the first
sentence of bullet point number eight.
Number eight.
The mind of one set straight
and purified, colon.
No pus, no dirt, no scabs.
And not a life cut short by death,
like an actor who stops before the
play is done, the plot wound up.
Neither servility nor arrogance,
neither cringing nor disdain,
neither excuses nor evasions.
That's, that's the whole one.
Wow.
Short one.
Short one.
Yeah.
You needed to add in that it's,
you'll feel real nice if you do this.
Is that kind of what?
Yeah, it just seems like he wanted
to work in some similes here.
I have this idea about an
actor kind of related to yeah.
I mean, yeah, this feels I think the
last couple sentences there are the
most interesting to me, that neither
civility nor arrogance, cringing
nor disdain, excuses nor evasion.
He's listing all the sort of
different forms that this, unaligned
people, or whatever, yeah, can take.
I mean, he's done lots of that
listing before, but I think that's
a nice a nice summary of it.
Servility is an interesting
one that, what does it mean?
To me, to be serv...
Servile?
Yeah, to be servile...
It's not necessarily a negative
thing, which is why I'm
interested in exclusionism.
It just kind of means, like,
following orders, and, like...
Maybe, I think maybe the negative
reading of it is like following in
orders too much like, like being like a
bootlegger or blindly following orders.
But it's, to me, it's not
nearly as negative as arrogance
or cringing or disdain.
So it's kind of interesting to
see it included on that list.
Number nine.
Your ability to control your thoughts.
Treat it with respect.
It's all that protects your
mind from false perceptions.
False to your nature.
And that of all rational beings.
It's what makes thoughtfulness possible.
And affection for other people.
And submission to the divine.
Huh.
First sentence is extremely Marcus.
This is the thing that he
loves more than anything else.
Yes.
Can you control your thoughts?
What does treat it with respect mean?
Treat your thoughts?
What's it?
I think the it is the ability.
He's saying you have an ability to,
to manipulate your mind and it's kind
of what makes us rational and it's
different than, than animals or whatever.
And revere that because it's a
special ability that you have.
Oh yeah, yeah, you're right.
It begs the question, how do
you do, like, what does it mean
to treat that with respect?
But I, I, I think.
Cultivate it.
Yeah.
Oh boy, I was really hoping it's...
Sorry to kind of take a different, I
was hoping it meant your thoughts, and
it was about like you should honor your
thoughts, your thoughts are there for
a reason, like personal consciousness,
but I don't think, you're right, I
don't think that's how you meant it.
I think what he means basically
in a word is rationality.
Like, treat your, yeah.
Yeah.
And, and.
This is what separates you from animals.
I, the thing at the end, it's what makes
thoughtfulness possible, seems obvious,
like, duh, yes, literally, your ability to
control your thoughts makes thoughtfulness
possible, thank you, Marcus.
That is the one that sticks
out to me, it's what makes
affection for other people.
Is that true?
I, I mean, animals have affection
for their kin and stuff, I don't
think I agree with rationality
is what enables affection.
Well, yeah, there's the animal
versus human side of that dynamic.
There's also the dynamic which is
kind of dark, which is that if you're
someone who can't fully control their
thoughts, you would hate everyone.
Or, yeah, or at least be
incapable of affection.
Or, yeah, like...
And that might be a pretty profound
idea that, like, everyone is flawed
and has issues, and so, like,
you have to be able to construe
narratives in your head to love them.
Everyone, people, because if you,
otherwise, if you let yourself get bogged
down by like that one thing that you know,
everyone's just human and makes mistakes
sometimes, then you would hate them all
That, I mean, that's that very
interesting that is, I think,
strikes me as too negative.
Too cynical.
As as because although, I mean
that is kind of what he's saying.
I always picture Marcus
as someone who wouldn't.
If he didn't write this journal and
force himself to, would hate everyone.
Hate everything and everyone.
So that gets at the tension, I think,
at the heart of this thing that we've
been talking about too, because Yeah.
How part of me thinks
the opposite is true.
That we, we discussed this, I think, in
the path that he's secretly a big softy.
Yeah.
And he needs to write all this stuff
because otherwise he's always gonna
get let down or sad because he's, yeah.
Yeah, he's a puppy dog, Marcus.
Yeah.
I, I, I guess over the course of
our reading so far, I've, Become
more aligned with puppy dog,
Marcus, as the way I read the text.
And so this, like, without your
rationality, everybody is a callous Like,
we can't have any love for one another.
I don't know.
I'm not sure what I think about
it yet, but it doesn't totally
comport, I feel like, with what
we've heard from him so far.
Yeah.
Your ability to control your
thoughts is all that protects
your mind from false perceptions.
Yeah, fine.
And makes it possible to have
affection for other people.
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree.
It's an interesting premise.
I would love to, I would
love it if he elaborated.
I wish.
Some of these entries are so long and
seem to repeat themselves so much.
And then he gives us these two sentence
ones that are really interesting.
And then, nope, no elaboration.
Yeah, moving on.
Move on.
Okay.
Number, number ten starts with
a very Marcus sentiment here.
Forget everything else.
Full stop.
Yeah, full stop.
This is like a clickbait.
Like, he's, he's inventing, like, ads.
This is the title of the article.
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
All caps, forget everything
else, read this article.
Keep, keep hold of this
alone and remember it.
Boy, the first wind up was not enough.
Keep hold of this alone and remember it.
Each of us lives only
now, this brief instant.
The rest has been lived already
or is impossible to see.
The span we live is small.
Small is the corner of the
earth in which we live it.
Small as even the greatest renown,
passed from mouth to mouth by short
lived stick figures, ignorant alike
of themselves and those long dead.
What about the stick figures?
He's saying that we're short
lived stick figures, I think.
Like, and, and, his point is that What
do you mean passing mouth to mouth?
Renown.
Okay.
I think what he's saying Kissing?
No, I, yeah, I agree that
passed from mouth to mouth
by short lived stick figures.
Sounds weird to modern.
That's amazing.
Modern ears.
I don't, I don't know about
the translation there.
There's no way this stick figures anyway.
Yeah.
I think, I think maybe what he means
is you know how like the, the, the,
the, the sort of accomplishments
of a previous emperor Yeah.
Are then portrayed as stick
figures on OG glyphs or whatever.
Yeah, yeah.
Canvas or whatever.
Yeah.
Yep.
That's us.
Yes.
And past, from mouth to
mouth, as in like, through.
Yes, yeah, that's my
reading of it as well.
Yes, it's just we, life is short.
Life is short, you can't change that.
We will be forgotten by history,
so bear that in mind, and as
a result, live in the present.
Whatever, revere the present moment.
Yeah, hard to...
Boy, it feels wrong to me to keep
having these chapters where we're
like, Yep, I agree with this.
Feels like something is wrong.
Because, I don't know, if
something's just correct, then...
Then maybe we're not thinking
deep enough, or maybe we're too,
I don't know, like, sheeple?
What are we, Tom?
Are we sheeple?
Or can we poke a hole in this?
Well, I guess my reaction to this
one is, with the stuff where we
say yep, in some cases it's maybe
because Marcus philosophy has won.
Like, it's, maybe this was an interesting,
like, the idea that life is...
Short and fleeting and history and the
past are all sort of inconsequential,
and the future are all sort of
inconsequential by comparison,
seemed more radical at the time.
But for us, live in the present and
dance like no one's watching is codified
in a million different pieces of advice
that we've all been bathed in our
entire lives, so it feels obvious to us.
Well it might be that, and it also,
you're right, and I think it's also that
It's, you know, it's, you can always write
a, there's a, this is kind of a truism.
Right.
Like, because there's a million
ways it can be interpreted.
And so, but if, I think what
would be really difficult is to
give examples of hard choices.
Yes.
That you have to make based
on these four sentences.
Right.
And then all of a sudden you can
actually have real conversation.
Up until that point, it's kind of like,
he's not, you know, cause there's a,
there's the carpet DM like, Oh, you
know, you should just not show up to work
because every day could be your last.
Like, right.
And then all of a sudden, okay.
People start to disagree with that.
Like, yeah, you shouldn't save money.
Yeah.
Who cares?
Who knows what's going to, you
know, the future is unknown.
Yeah.
Like, so I guess that's, that's the other
issue is not only has it been thoroughly
ingrained in us as a truism, it's also
a little too abstract to really, yes.
And that's a kind of
unique part of this text.
I feel like that's been, you know, we've
been reacting to is there's this because
it's, it operates on such a high level.
There's more work than for the typical
text we engage with for the reader
to bring themselves to this text and
figure out how to use it, I think.
And maybe you're right.
Maybe we, it's, it's tough to do
this on the fly, though, frankly,
to come up with a way that, oh,
here's the, the moment in my life
where I'm not doing this particular.
Yeah.
Thing.
Yeah.
It's another, I mean, he also has a
tendency in general to give advice
that is lofty and big picture, but
probably in practice we can all
see that it's actually, we all know
that it's very difficult to live
by and that, I mean, none of us.
Totally, am I constantly aware of the
briefness of life and how I should
be revering every single moment?
Of course not.
No, I constantly forget that.
I don't think, yes, yeah, I'm
always getting obsessed with little
meaningless stuff or whatever.
Yeah.
So, I guess another way of looking at this
text maybe is just, it's a text to come
back to to sort of like reset yourself and
be like, oh yeah, duh, of course, yeah.
Even if it feels kind of obvious.
And the reason it's so repetitive is
because every day you come back and
sit down and read three chapters.
And they're all the same.
Every time, it's the same three concepts.
But you have a different problem that day.
Today, I stubbed my toe
and it hurt my feelings.
And so you can apply stubbed toe to all
of the same concepts and remind yourself
that okay, it's gonna be alright.
Life is momentary.
And also it wasn't your fault.
It wasn't the step's fault, so you
shouldn't be too upset, you know, and it
just, whatever that one issue, and then
tomorrow you come back with a different
issue, and so, it's kind of like religion,
where it's, you know, prayers are just,
like, one, one framework, one set of
classes that you can apply to anything.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I like that.
I think I agree with what you just said,
and I think there's something very deep
and true about it, which is that There's
something kind of meta about creating this
very repetitive text, which is kind of
like if you come to it every day with your
different problems, and the prescription
that he gives is always kind of the same
advice, you come, that is the point of
the philosophy on some level, that the
solution to all your problems is the same
and it's this vague living in adherence
with this philosophy, and so it makes,
if you come back to it every day with
new problems, eventually you realize,
oh, these aren't new problems, they're,
they're, they're all the same problem.
If they can all be related to Marcus.
This makes me think that
we are doing it right.
Where we have this, at the beginning
of every episode, we'll talk about it.
Here's the one thing,
maybe that's bothering me.
And then we can go through and read it
and comment on that one thing for us.
I like that, yes, I agree.
Tom, what is the one, how, you know,
What's, what is this is relevant?
Yeah, I mean for me I think that it
resonates the most in that sort of don't
waste your time and the way that resonates
for me in my life right now is being
single and not wanting to waste my time.
You know, as a wallowing in self-pity.
Yeah.
Well, I'm not that's, that
feels, that feels harsh.
Yeah.
, I don't feel like I'm
wallowing in self-pity.
But I, I am taking my time maybe, and I
could, there is a, a feeling of, oh, you
know, I'm young right now with my life
won't be the way that it is right now.
Forever.
And maybe, yeah.
I I could be, yeah, I could
be moving more quickly.
Oh Yeah, that's, I guess that's,
that's my knee jerk personal
reaction to this, this entry.
Fantastic.
I mean, I think that's how
it's supposed to be read.
Yeah, I agree.
And in the margins you would
scribble, like, This is what's
going on for me right now.
Get all the dating out.
Yeah, I like that.
I think I like what you just suggested,
which is maybe even at the beginning of
the episode in a more ritualized way, we
can kind of say, here's what I'm expecting
to apply to the text with Marcus.
I mean, I think we've sort of informally
been doing that, but there's, that
can Almost frame our episodes a
little bit about like what's going
on in our lives that we expect Marcus
might have something to say about and
then see if we find anything for him
to say about in the episode itself.
Yeah, I like that.
I think that's a cool approach.
How are we on time?
I guess there's no way to know.
Boy, the display doesn't tell you
how long you've been recording for.
50 minutes.
Oh, 50 minutes, okay.
Should we keep going a little longer then?
One more entry?
One more entry, this is a fatty.
Yeah, I agree.
We can finish it.
Oh yeah, wow, it is a fatty.
Okay, we should do at least one.
How much more?
Oh my gosh, we're almost done
with book three, actually.
Oh, really?
We have, like, six?
We have one, two, three, four, five.
Six more entries?
Six, but they're small.
So we could maybe just stop here.
Or we could finish it.
Maybe let's stop here.
I think 50 ish minutes
is a pretty good length.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's, yeah.
Yeah.
That was a, that was a good one.
Anything we want to wrap
up with here before we go?
We got one, probably one more episode
before we get through book three.
We are still in Carnuntum with
absolutely no relation between
the text and the book chapters.
Yeah.
No, I enjoyed this chapter.
Yeah, me too.
Good to be, good to be back.
Yeah.
I think we, We have lucked into a text
that really lends itself to this format,
I think, because it is the kind of text
where we can dip in and out and see
what it means for our lives right now.
And yeah, I think we have some good ideas
for how this will work moving forward.
So see you later.