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Weekly conversations breaking down what we're watching, what you should be watching and everything in between.
Speaker 2: Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the Popcon for Dinner podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm your host, emmanuel, and today we are talking about Loki, season 2, episode 3.
Speaker 2: I've got two amazing guests to discuss the episode with.
Speaker 2: Before that, obviously, welcome to our podcast feed.
Speaker 2: We are obviously covering a multitude of different series.
Speaker 2: At the moment, we're talking Loki.
Speaker 2: Obviously, what you're listening to we're covering Gen V, which just got renewed for season 2.
Speaker 2: We are going to cover Invincible, which starts next month Pretty excited about that.
Speaker 2: We've got episodes already about series that have just completed, like Sex Education, top Boy, winning Time and the Continental.
Speaker 2: Also, our sister podcast is this cinema is back from its hiatus and they've just come out with a new episode on Taylor Swift's Eris tour and that's going to be on this feed as well.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, so join us for all these episodes, give us your thoughts, rate us, review us, share it with your friends, everything Cool.
Speaker 2: So with me today to discuss Loki.
Speaker 2: I've got a returning guest Jeremiah.
Speaker 2: Jeremiah, how are you doing?
Speaker 1: Hey guys, I'm good Happy to be back.
Speaker 2: And we've also got a new face for Loki.
Speaker 2: I guess he's been with us before on Popcorn for Dinner.
Speaker 2: Welcome, mo, nice to be with you.
Speaker 3: I have to say it For profit.
Speaker 3: I have to say it.
Speaker 4: Hi, how are you?
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me on for like the.
Speaker 3: I post my number of times I've forced my way on to this podcast, Just like I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think this is the podcast I've been on most.
Speaker 3: I haven't even been on our podcast as many times.
Speaker 2: We're privileged.
Speaker 2: For those who don't know, mo is the editor-in-chief of Streamer.
Speaker 2: Check them out.
Speaker 2: They do a lot of amazing pop culture content.
Speaker 2: We had Fat 4 with us last week.
Speaker 2: Who's the comic editor?
Speaker 2: That's?
Speaker 3: TJ.
Speaker 3: His name isn't actually Fat Thor, it's TJ.
Speaker 2: I mean he told us to call him that.
Speaker 3: I just think when people get to know him they're like, oh Thor, I'm like who the hell is Thor?
Speaker 3: Like that's another character.
Speaker 1: Not you being mysterious at this point.
Speaker 2: You've exposed him now.
Speaker 2: Now everyone knows his actual name.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've doxed him.
Speaker 3: I've doxed him Wait till I tell you what TJ stands for.
Speaker 2: Oh god, Right, right, right Cool.
Speaker 2: So let's get into the episode.
Speaker 2: General Ford's Mo.
Speaker 2: What did you think about the episode?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought the episode was, like I've seen the first four episodes and I thought this was my second favorite out of the four that I got a chance to see, only because when I first watched it I thought that each new episode was trying to do something different from a craft effect.
Speaker 3: So I think I thought the cinematography and episodes one and two were really really good and they stood out for me as far as like the technical achievements.
Speaker 3: For me, episode three had my two favorite shot from like the whole of the show and probably in the MCU in general, because it was a shot of Loki traveling through Loki and Mobius traveling through the time door at the tour to start of the episode, and it was that shot of Wren Slayer, timely and Miss Minutes on the boat.
Speaker 3: And because Miss Minutes is still black and white, she kind of looked like a moon.
Speaker 3: I just thought that was a really nice picture.
Speaker 3: There was, I think, moon Knight.
Speaker 3: Episode three also had a really nice shot of the moon.
Speaker 3: So, like, funnily enough, moon Knight was also one of the Marvel shows that they gave us four episodes for, so it's a funny coincidence and it's also the Moon Knight director did do directing for Loki season two.
Speaker 2: So the similarities there, oh okay, I didn't know the Moon Knight directors were over.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Justin Benson and Aaron Moehead.
Speaker 3: I think I get my names mixed around, but yeah, it's Justin, and Justin and Aaron.
Speaker 2: I was going to say that if a show called Moon Knight doesn't have a good shot of the moon, then what are we doing here?
Speaker 2: But at the same time, we've talked about the cinematography and the directing I think we talked about in last week's episode.
Speaker 2: That it's been really good For this episode as well.
Speaker 2: It was really good.
Speaker 2: I need to shout out director of this episode, kazra Farahani.
Speaker 2: He co-wrote and directed the episode.
Speaker 2: I wanted to give him a shout out because I think he's got an amazing story, because he's the production assistant on the actual Loki season two.
Speaker 2: He was a production assistant in season one as well, but before that he was a concept artist for Marvel, so it's just nice to see someone level up through the system from concept artists to production assistant to now writing and directing an episode that we're all saying we enjoyed.
Speaker 2: He's also an Iranian man, so props for diversity as well.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, just wanted to give him a shout out.
Speaker 2: I thought he did an amazing job.
Speaker 3: That's something that is the same with the director from last week's episode, dandelion.
Speaker 3: He was an assistant director for the show as well, so it's good to see Marvel working with talent that they were working with Not like keep it in the family, but also train up the people that they've got to make it a studio that's got different talent that actually does produce good work.
Speaker 3: The objective for these directors is to start them off on something small like an episode of a TV show, and then see if they can maybe graduate to taking on a whole season and then taking on a film and then taking on like that's the progression thing.
Speaker 3: I think that goes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's great.
Speaker 2: Can I interrupt this discussion of?
Speaker 3: Loki, to give you some MC, some actual Marvel news that broke today.
Speaker 3: All right, breaking news Sure exclusive no, not already exclusive anymore, but there's a I need to see what the names are, but see, oh yes, it's a men on Raj and DK who did the family man, a show called Fawzi, and they're working on Citadel India for time video.
Speaker 3: They've just been hired by Marvel Studios to write an upcoming movie that is described as a cool new origin story for a superhero.
Speaker 3: They were introduced to Marvel by the Russo Brothers and Marvel Studios we know this from.
Speaker 3: Deadline recently opened up pictures for writers for X-Men projects, so it would be interesting to see if they're going to be doing an X-Men project Interesting, because there's some X-Men stuff that could that links to Loki with, obviously, victor Tangle and all of the kindness and apocalypse and Ramita and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean yeah, to bring it back to Loki is funny because, like online last week I've seen a lot of people saying, oh, you know, when they go into the room of the temporal loom and the doors open and they're like that really reminded them of cerebro.
Speaker 2: I was like I mean we can't start doing this thing where any sliding door is cerebral.
Speaker 3: Just because we put any sliding door with an X on.
Speaker 3: It has to be cerebral, though, like you got to even the X on it was reaching for me.
Speaker 3: Okay, so they turn architectural structure into an inspiration.
Speaker 3: That's just genius, that's just good filmmaking.
Speaker 2: Fair, fair.
Speaker 2: Fair enough I mean people connect to it.
Speaker 2: But then I can't do this thing Like.
Speaker 2: I remember like was it was Miss Marvel where we had that little bit of the X-Men theme.
Speaker 2: I just remember losing my shit, so I can't complain about people doing that.
Speaker 3: I watched Multiverse of Madness and the Cinema and it was the first I'm Actuating in the UK, and then I remember I was just I was so tired and then when Professor X came on, he said that just because people lose their way, or something like that, the person next to me was repeating it and I was like, oh my God, this was like a year and three months ago, a year and five months ago, and people are still talking, clinging onto any X-Men that they can get.
Speaker 3: So we need some news soon, yeah no, absolutely Right.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about what we do have in Marvel.
Speaker 2: Back to Loki Jeremiah.
Speaker 2: What did you think about episode three?
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, like this is probably like what I was saying.
Speaker 1: This is one of my favorite episodes of Legends of Tomorrow, or, like Disney likes to call it, loki.
Speaker 2: You're going to have angry fans in your mansion.
Speaker 2: Look your account now.
Speaker 1: I loved especially those first 10, 15 minutes, like we were saying offline.
Speaker 1: I loved the idea and we mentioned this last week again we're coming back, we're coming down to Earth and giving us more of the adventures that people probably thought we would get when we heard there would be a show with Loki that had to do with time travel and we discovered there was something called the TVA.
Speaker 1: So I liked the whole.
Speaker 1: They get to play, dress up, they go undercover, they're trying to figure out without breaking the timeline, but of course, like in this case, we don't really care about branching the timeline anymore.
Speaker 1: But they're looking, they're hunting someone, loki and Mobius are doing their classic cop routines or whatever, and it's.
Speaker 1: I loved the.
Speaker 1: I loved the episode and I had a lot of fun watching it because I mean, like you mentioned as well, there's a bunch of easter eggs that we can pick up on from in different parts of this episode, like how Victor timely connects to other characters, although again, I still find myself having to calm down and not try to theorize too much before we start thinking oh my days, maybe Victor timely connects to the Fantastic Four or to X, like it's Loki.
Speaker 1: We're just going to get a story about Loki, that's it.
Speaker 3: Well, you say that, you say that, but Loki is one of those, is one of the shows that can go anywhere because of how unburdened it is to the rest of the MCU.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like perhaps but this is what I was saying to a man or that like it doesn't technically, it doesn't have to be something that we see inside of Loki.
Speaker 1: So you see how, like for example, the end of last season, everyone puts to the birth the multiverse and that affects the entirety of the MCU.
Speaker 1: And we can look at it that way that whatever Victor timely is doing or any of the characters is doing could set the landscape of the next few years of the MCU.
Speaker 1: But much like how Doctor Strange didn't show up in Wonder Vision, I don't expect to see Doctor Doom in Loki season two.
Speaker 2: Fair, fair, fair fair.
Speaker 2: I know, I know no one says to do it, but this is why I call the Mephisto rule after Wonder Vision.
Speaker 4: Not over theorize.
Speaker 3: Well, no, the thing would end up with Ralph Boner.
Speaker 3: Well, no, mephisto is was always like a hinted and part of the plan, right Like it was always hinted, always part of the plan they knew what they were doing, going into it.
Speaker 3: But I know with Loki, from the development side they really did read like because it was a show that they didn't always intended to have a second season.
Speaker 3: At least they really approached it way differently to how they approach like Wonder, vision and upcoming Agatha, where they're treating everything as a spin off of a limited series.
Speaker 3: But Loki was the only one that was properly developed with the second season in mind.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3: So it is like, and that's why they could risk it by having someone as big as kind show up in the finale.
Speaker 3: Because so I would say that, like out of any show, if there's any MCU show that you can really like, go wild with your predictions on, it would be Loki.
Speaker 3: And purely because of the nature of it, because you're traveling into different, different multiverses, anything could happen at any point in time and because Disney owns everything you could have and you can have, like they did in the season finale of the first season, references to other Marvel projects, even one that on Disney owned from the off.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I agree Because I'm as you were saying.
Speaker 1: I realized we have already seen a read Richard, so who's to say we don't see a dog?
Speaker 1: Like I realized as soon as I said that if there's any comedy in the universe, people will play the scene back, like right next to the introduction of Dr Duke, when it does happen, because it could happen.
Speaker 1: We could just see some variants on some timeline and it's not that important, but it's just there.
Speaker 2: So you had to hear first.
Speaker 1: we've seen the fantastic four before the season wrap, so oh God, that's exactly the opposite of what I was saying.
Speaker 2: Cool.
Speaker 2: So let's get to the crux of this episode now, right, yeah, so you know, coming into this episode, we know Ravonna Renslayer and Miss Minutes are on a mission given to them by he who remains and we get to see that they land in Chicago in 1869, on the sacred timeline, and they end up, you know, dropping what ends up being a TVA guidebook to true a young Victor time these window.
Speaker 2: And you know, fast forward, we go into 25 years in the future, I think, to 1893.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're now on a branch timeline which I imagine is the show telling us that.
Speaker 2: You know that, like, dropping that TVA guidebook is kind of been a nexus event and has taken Victor timely, you know, off well off his normal routine, and now has created this branch timeline and we've we kind of get into it of like Mobius and Loki show up there in 1893.
Speaker 2: Ravonna and Miss Minutes are there and I think the whole thing is all about, you know, victor timely and is he going to become he who remains?
Speaker 2: Is he not?
Speaker 2: Is he going to become something worse?
Speaker 2: You know it.
Speaker 2: That's basically the meat of the episode and you know we also get to kind of know him as well.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, so what so far?
Speaker 2: Just based on this episode, what do we think of Victor?
Speaker 2: Timely Jeremiah.
Speaker 1: The one thing is I like him a lot.
Speaker 1: He's he's someone that you want to hear more of, like one of those like for one I love again, this is where we come back to legend tomorrow, but I love the idea of these geniuses that we come back in time and we see them scamming people like, like like Oppenheimer.
Speaker 3: Yeah no, but just what the Ferris wheel moves, and all of a sudden it's just a little bit of a piece.
Speaker 1: I feel like the only thing, the only thing that was missing to make it a completely legend is, the thing was probably, if you had someone like Casey or someone who's a nerd in the CV, a comment and let's say Victor timely, we replace him with some known scientist and that person is not.
Speaker 1: That's the only thing they don't have.
Speaker 1: But no, I love meeting him as a character and again you did.
Speaker 1: The show does enough to make you question, like, how much does this character know?
Speaker 1: Because at first you're introduced and you're like when we saw him in the post credit scene of Ant-Man, you're thinking, no, this is a he who remains variant.
Speaker 1: That is starting something back in time.
Speaker 1: But this show goes through the stage of making sure to show us that actually Rensley has sets him on a path and they've done enough right now to convince us that no, this person is learning from the TV guidebook, as opposed to this person made sure, or at least this person was expecting to receive it here.
Speaker 1: So it's like, is it he who remains in at the end of time, like you were saying, controlling things to make sure things happen the way he wants it to?
Speaker 1: Or are we, are we being like completely misled by a very well calculated Kang variant that is even more dangerous than he remains good I've ever been, because he's making sure things happen in a certain way and then convincing us that this is an innocent good guy at this point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's again like it's so fascinating, you know of like I love the idea that he who remains is dead, but his machinations are still everywhere, like it all still revolves around him.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so it's all about like we're trying to figure out, like what did he plan?
Speaker 2: Because he literally had an eternity there.
Speaker 2: Like you know, this could be planned 2 million and 75 or whatever, but you know, we're getting to see it and yeah, it's great, mo, what did you think about Victor Simley?
Speaker 3: Okay, so you mentioned Casey, seeing Casey, someone mentioned Casey before.
Speaker 3: Yeah, one of my colleagues, britt, has a theory on Casey and it is that she hasn't seen the episodes so she doesn't know.
Speaker 3: But it's that his like, like his sacred timeline version, the real Casey was actually one of the prisoners that escaped from Alcatraz, because we see a shot of Alcatraz in the trailer and we see Casey there.
Speaker 3: So that could be something, because there was prisoners that escaped from Alcatraz and no one could find them.
Speaker 3: There's four of them.
Speaker 3: There's like a bus feed on salt about it, but it's it's.
Speaker 3: It's quite a nice theory and I think like finding out more of what other people did on the sacred timeline is really like interesting, because it sort of would help understand some of their motivations a little bit.
Speaker 3: So I thought that like I think someone like Casey being a prisoner and then escaping, and then him whining up effectively back in a prison and not being able to escape, just seems like a bit of a cruel, cruel thing.
Speaker 3: But I think that like he's been upgraded to a, to a series regular this season yeah, eugene Cordero has.
Speaker 3: So I think it would be quite, it would be quite nice to have some some backstory there, because we know we're going to see some backstory of something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, like I think last episode we really went into it of, like you know, these guys have all got like different origin stories and it's like it's going to be sort of mad to see to see what, what, what you know they were all up to if we do get to see that and stuff.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, yeah, casey is one of those guys that haven't just really thought too much about you know, it's just, it's kind of just happy to be there and I'm just happy to have him there.
Speaker 2: You know that kind of thing.
Speaker 2: You know who's memorized the handbook.
Speaker 2: He's done it cool.
Speaker 2: I just keep going.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean there is.
Speaker 3: There are a lot of people are theorizing that OB could be the, the actual villain Of the show.
Speaker 3: So if Casey knows that handbook and OB knows the handbook and OB turns out to be a villain, then maybe Casey can be the new OB.
Speaker 2: Hmm, maybe Maybe.
Speaker 3: The new TV.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so to bring it, to bring it back to Victor timely, right, like we're now.
Speaker 2: So these machinations are so complex that you now have to think like OK is, are we dealing with a kind of closed loop here, or is that what we're trying to deal with, like he who remains sort of created a TV?
Speaker 2: There's obviously some connection to OB because he wrote the TV guidebook.
Speaker 2: Then the TV guidebook is what sets Victor timely off to, as this episode kind of presents it, to go on and become he who remains.
Speaker 2: So that's what our characters believe anyway.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like, is it that kind of bootstrap again?
Speaker 2: Because, again, if it is fair play, because the show did kind of, you know, foreshadow it when we saw OB, kind of remembering stuff and basically the fact that OB is basically a nickname that Loki gave him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but his name anyway is a snake eating its own tail.
Speaker 3: So that's yeah.
Speaker 3: So that, like that is, yeah, it's interesting, his, his name is the biggest.
Speaker 1: Like Easter egg, we always like, yeah, it's cool, we've had everything being cyclical.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and yeah, that's why I've been I'm still on that theory, like everything that is supposed to happen is still happening, which is why Kage is that scary, because it's like everything we're doing is future.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you think.
Speaker 2: So you think the way we are now we are on the way to heading to another, he who remains kind of exactly the same person at the end of the, at the end of time, I don't.
Speaker 1: So this is the thing.
Speaker 1: This is where we're saying that I don't know when.
Speaker 1: You, when we discussed previously about the branch time, like you, mentioned that the TV, a guy book sense, sets him on a different path.
Speaker 1: Now, obviously, with interdimensional travel it's possible that it ends up still being him over there, because in the finale he's careful not to say which timeline he's from, but he does kind of allude to the idea that he protected his timeline.
Speaker 1: But what he did say was, once I isolated the sacred timeline, which could have just been any timeline.
Speaker 3: That was the last one that he liked, that he made sure he was the you know, I think specifically a loom, like the point of it being a loom is that it's taking strands of different timelines, so it's all these timelines are being fed through his threads and it's turning into one single string.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's weaving all of the timelines together.
Speaker 3: So it's not necessarily that he, so it doesn't really matter, he's from the point of a loom.
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 3: The point of a loom is to bring everything into one, into one space.
Speaker 3: But now, because you're basically breaking that, you're basically you're trying to what they're trying.
Speaker 3: What they're doing by, like, destroying the sacred timeline, is breaking that loom.
Speaker 3: They're trying to make sure that the loom can handle all of the branch timelines to no longer turn it into.
Speaker 3: They're basically trying to retrofit the loom.
Speaker 3: But I wanted to ask you what do you guys think is the big secret that Miss Minutes teased?
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't even know.
Speaker 1: I don't even know.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I wanted to actually talk about Victor timely.
Speaker 3: I wanted to actually talk about Victor timely.
Speaker 2: Let's stick on Victor time, because we will get to rent Slayer and Miss Minutes, because that is the whole section.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure, I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: Even rent, slayer and Victor.
Speaker 1: Timely is a whole dynamic that we still we're still yet to properly explore.
Speaker 3: But like yeah, so Jonathan, majors, that the performance.
Speaker 3: It was really really frustrating, though like tough to watch, because you're watching it with the context of him saying I'm not a bad guy, I haven't done any bad things, and then Sylvia is telling him but you will, and you know that this was filmed the way before March 2023.
Speaker 3: So I was watching it with that in mind and I was like oh God oh no, so you broke the fourth wall.
Speaker 3: I was, yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean yeah, but I was watching it and I was like that's a very uncomfortable performance to watch, given the context.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did think that it was interesting that they had Sylvie basically being the arbiter of his fate and where he was, and her having that control and power is something that she thinks she wanted.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and she could almost feel as though for like kind of taking it back and joining the TVA to really kind of leave her mark on it, but she like there's obviously some hesitation there.
Speaker 3: So it would be interesting to see how it comes about with what we saw in episode one as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so talking about like Sylvie and Victor Timely right, like that dynamic is something I always used to call like the baby Hitler dynamic, of like when people say you know, if you went back in time today and you had the chance to kill baby Hitler before he did anything terrible, would you be a good person if you did or did not?
Speaker 2: Because it's like Sylvie is saying all these things or most telling me he's going to do it oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: But yeah, sylvie is saying I want to kill you because I know what you can become or what you will become.
Speaker 2: But you know, victor Timely I'm not going to say Jonathan Majors is telling us he hasn't done those things, we don't know his heart and I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's just one of those philosophical arguments that like it fascinates me a lot because I can't really 100% say like what side is right or wrong.
Speaker 2: Because it's like you know again in the central proving group, guilty and then you know things can always change and stuff.
Speaker 2: But yeah, jeremiah, what do you think?
Speaker 1: Don't worry.
Speaker 1: You just said I kind of I tend to agree.
Speaker 1: I think that we've seen enough to know that characters don't, so I mean variants literally exists.
Speaker 1: Right, characters don't have to make the same choices in every iteration and join it back to the Uraburus loop.
Speaker 1: Potentially I'm not like super versed on the whole comics thing, with the Avengers and Kang and Thor and then restarting the universe and having the TV instead of the timekeepers, but if we have something like that, we would also get the idea that potentially, while everything can be cyclical and can close his loop, someone else could also start something.
Speaker 1: Because if everything is just like supposed to happen and just keeps happening over and over and over again, that's kind of cruel, because then the heroes either always fail or always win.
Speaker 1: But it's like you're iterating with every new loop Someone might change something different.
Speaker 1: That's how we as viewers tend to want to watch it.
Speaker 1: But obviously the fear, the fear that it could be the exact same thing and we still end up with he who remains, and not just any variants of he who remains, but the very one that we're talking about still back there at the same point in time to continue his work or to just be there.
Speaker 1: That is it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, I don't even know where to begin with that.
Speaker 1: But on the Sylvia and Victor Tami dynamic, I kind of get Sylvia's hesitation but at the end of the day I'm kind of skipping ahead here.
Speaker 1: But like she does in a sense, let go, because for some reason, look, he's like, look, he's the one to get to her on the idea that if we don't use him, if he doesn't help us, then even what you're trying to protect you will lose.
Speaker 1: So it's like I think I agree with more words, like she's definitely conflicted about something.
Speaker 1: But it's clear where her initial like motivation is.
Speaker 1: Like motivations still lie, because when, when Loki tells her what would you do when another variant shows up, she says she hesitates a bit and she goes well, I'll kill them all.
Speaker 1: So we do know that something is pricking at her mind.
Speaker 1: The same way, she's wondering something when we leave her off in the end of the last episode as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's.
Speaker 2: It's all fascinating.
Speaker 2: There's one.
Speaker 2: There's one like theory I want to put out there to you guys.
Speaker 2: I'm on confirm, yeah, but I was just saying, like could we all be overthinking this right with Victor Timely, could it just be a case of, like he who remains is like right, if I die, the loom is going to be a mess.
Speaker 2: They're going to need someone to fix it.
Speaker 2: Let's set this guy off, because, the way I look at it, like Victor Timely was already creating some of this stuff that looks like it's going to be TVA technology.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but wasn't that based on him having the book?
Speaker 2: Yep, fair, true.
Speaker 2: So maybe he's like I don't know, maybe it's something like do we get him to do that faster or some way so that he can create?
Speaker 2: I forgot what he calls it.
Speaker 2: Is it a stabilizer or something that should fix the loom?
Speaker 2: And he remains like.
Speaker 2: This is the first problem.
Speaker 2: This guy is going to solve that and we're all thinking, oh no, because he looks like him, he's going to be a he who remains, he's going to be the one to go on to be the end.
Speaker 2: Maybe his purpose is actually just to fix the loom.
Speaker 1: What do you guys think about that?
Speaker 3: I'm going to show you something.
Speaker 1: Oh, the listeners won't get this.
Speaker 2: That's why you should watch us on YouTube.
Speaker 2: The viewers will.
Speaker 3: The viewers will so go subscribe to the YouTube.
Speaker 3: This is my reaction to episode four Oof Oof Fair enough and I sent a message to my colleague, josh.
Speaker 3: Episode four just started, already blown away.
Speaker 3: Does it get better than it currently is?
Speaker 3: Because something happened.
Speaker 3: And then this is my reaction at the end of the episode.
Speaker 3: So I would say that you're theorizing, it's, you're, you're.
Speaker 3: You're not overthinking anything.
Speaker 3: Don't overthink with this show, because I don't even know where the show is going to go.
Speaker 1: Fair enough.
Speaker 1: I do have a question on that, though, because you because I think I forgot to say this in the last one Because I like the idea as well that he just needs him to be able to stabilize the room and then whichever variant he is will exist and that would be it, like that's possible as well, and then it would.
Speaker 1: It would come on with maybe even asking the question of would this Victor timely be key or instrumental in helping to stop that?
Speaker 1: And that you know that's not that important.
Speaker 1: My question is kind of what we were talking about offline, if we're going to call it that.
Speaker 1: Where is this Victor timely from?
Speaker 1: We do know that in the existence of the multiverse is possible for the same identity to be born at different times, but we're talking about like almost to like, over one millennia.
Speaker 1: So this is a 31st century person in the 19th century.
Speaker 2: So I mean, yeah, like we, we 100 percent.
Speaker 2: I think the show needs to give us more information there on what's going on.
Speaker 1: Right Because we know the timely character Travels back in time to 1901 in the comics.
Speaker 1: Well, some people might know that, but, like you were saying, offline we meet this one as a child.
Speaker 1: So this was this child like transported there first, did this, or is this actually?
Speaker 1: No, I am aware of what I am doing and I am putting on an act, even to miss minutes and to rent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because when we mentioned Kang prime, that's kind of the idea as well that all along the Victor timely is also Kang prime, but only his most trusted people would ever know that and it's like are we being drawn along for that ride as well?
Speaker 2: So I was just going to say, like with that one, like again, I think we need more information.
Speaker 2: I get what you mean, but I think it could.
Speaker 2: I'm inclined to believe the show right that he doesn't know any of this stuff, and it's actually right.
Speaker 2: And again, everyone's talking about the man you will become, the man you will be, you know we don't know what it's going to be, and it was a specific thing they kept saying I'll probably talk more about this as well, but like Loki talks about you know, oh, he's kind of a trickster, like his confidence.
Speaker 2: What's the color con man?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like, and there's a time they kind of suppose, as I says, well, I know my ideas are good, but I feel like the technology of my time is holding me back.
Speaker 2: Is it just the case that there is the?
Speaker 2: You know it's?
Speaker 2: This is me just putting this spitballing from my brain.
Speaker 2: Is there a case of like he has these amazing ideas and somehow he happens to be able to go to the future where his ideas can become reality?
Speaker 2: And that is how he becomes who they feel like you know he's going to become you know this version.
Speaker 1: I would say this if, if we go with the assumption that he doesn't know anything, yes, then that's what I'm expecting to be the story of this version, because he is going to the TVA now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he is going to see the technology that he's been seen in the TVA guidebook.
Speaker 1: He's going to presumably learn some stuff, because he's very clearly a very smart person, like even in that time, even with see I mean, you forgive me, that TVA guidebook, I'm not going to be able to make a temporal loom.
Speaker 2: Like the 80s, yeah, like in the 1800s.
Speaker 2: When I say in the 80s, in the 1800s he made a temporal loom, yeah, and he does it and we're literally watching him right there.
Speaker 1: It's like like some prestige stuff, where everyone is first like dabs in them and then they're wowed and they want their hands on his machine again.
Speaker 1: Legend of tomorrow.
Speaker 2: But that made me laugh quite a bit, because I'm like come on, you guys don't understand what he said.
Speaker 2: It just looked cool and you just want to spend money on it, of course, but yeah, jesus.
Speaker 4: Christ Jeremiah, how many, how many drugs were you on watching this episode Me?
Speaker 1: Yes, why.
Speaker 4: How you might be correct, but like just the fact that this theory has even come to your mind is just like what.
Speaker 4: What planets were you watching?
Speaker 1: it.
Speaker 1: I was very sober.
Speaker 3: I took an edible and I watched the first.
Speaker 3: I watched the four of us.
Speaker 4: Must be nice Must be nice.
Speaker 4: I mean, obviously I'm trying to stay away, but then this theory just kind of broke my brain.
Speaker 4: I was like I could have won this episode five times and never even considered it.
Speaker 3: You should read my reaction and tell me that I wasn't stoned as fuck when I was writing it.
Speaker 4: One thing I need one thing I wanted to ask you guys because you guys seem to be very new away from it and I just kind of need your opinions on it because I feel like, from what I've seen, is basically a litmus test for people's reception to this episode.
Speaker 4: I'm actually quite good at the silver thing.
Speaker 4: I was thinking about the silver thing.
Speaker 4: I think obviously it's important because she's trying to avoid being the TV right as much as we should and the TV is planning season one where going and printing people based on their numberation and they could do this.
Speaker 4: So how then, killing this variant who we don't know?
Speaker 4: She probably believes that she doesn't look for a setting that he's going to become.
Speaker 4: He will remain.
Speaker 4: How killing this variant makes her the TV?
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's killing him because he's on a branch time like he's probably going to walk into.
Speaker 4: She says he would have been fine, but then you give him the book.
Speaker 4: He branched the timeline and now I have to kill him and now just make a TV.
Speaker 4: Don't make her like Revona.
Speaker 4: So she can't do that.
Speaker 4: Yes, so she becomes what she hates.
Speaker 3: Sorry, why didn't they prune the branch timeline in episode two?
Speaker 3: The branch timeline, yeah, the one that Revona and Miss Minutes made when they gave timely, young timely, the stuff.
Speaker 1: Well, they're not pruning it.
Speaker 1: They're not pruning any branch, or they didn't put all the time they didn't get all of them.
Speaker 2: Also, I think the show is kind of also telling us like this hadn't happened, then Like that Nexus event happened at that point.
Speaker 2: Because, if I remember, correctly, it was after that that they got the ping from the Tempat, like after the Docs explosion and stuff.
Speaker 4: That's true, so anyway, the reason I came out of these shadows is I want to ask you guys and obviously I know why you're trying to skirt away from me, but I think it's kind of important just for the thought of this episode what are your receptions individually to the performance of Jonathan Timely?
Speaker 4: Because of the picture timeline, because, like it is, like it's obviously a choice.
Speaker 4: There are lots of choices involved.
Speaker 4: The turn is to make him different and I want to know what do you guys think about the performance itself?
Speaker 4: Obviously, I think all the caveats existed.
Speaker 4: We know who we're talking about, but just the performance of the character.
Speaker 4: What do you guys think, purely?
Speaker 3: performance.
Speaker 4: Yes, purely performance.
Speaker 3: Good performance, very reminiscent of he who remained, and you could see how someone who's that eccentric from the start can if he's spending an eternity effectively alone or talking to a computer then how he can become that kind of effed up that we said, the level of effed up that we see him in at the end of season one.
Speaker 3: So his performance definitely has reminders and echoes of he who remains and I think it was interesting.
Speaker 3: But I don't like the.
Speaker 3: I don't like how sort of like innocent they're trying to make him Because they are like the whole thing is because it's played by the Johnson majors.
Speaker 3: Well, yes and no, it's hard to ignore.
Speaker 3: It's hard, it's really really hard to ignore.
Speaker 3: It was a sympathetic performance, but it's still like it is very tainted, and it's the same thing with the Miss minutes as well.
Speaker 3: It's like the show.
Speaker 3: The show is very, very tainted, for me a little bit.
Speaker 2: God at least your villains at least.
Speaker 3: Yes, in real life to.
Speaker 4: Fair enough, jerry and Jerry and model.
Speaker 4: What do you guys think of the performance, the performance.
Speaker 4: Bank is gonna accuse me of doing drugs again because, if you sorry, if I forget, jeremiah, there are other time, travel, things, about relations of tomorrow, I mean yes, but it's like I can send you a list.
Speaker 1: I watch a lot of them.
Speaker 1: But this show, for some reason I don't know if it's the cinematography or what, especially this episode, I don't know, like if you know there's a way the camera looks when they're in In Brad Wolves premiere and also this that gives me specifically when they go into 1900s and legends of two word.
Speaker 4: That's why it's always given me that like specifically that you just said that the Disney budget is equivalent to this W budget.
Speaker 1: If you want.
Speaker 1: I think I actually think I think it's a choice.
Speaker 1: I think it's a choice they mean I don't think it's budgets and I think it's.
Speaker 1: I think it's a Simatographic or whatever, like I think it's a choice they've made.
Speaker 1: But to answer it, to answer your question, I was going to ask just to be sure, because I I'm not sure if I remember enough of his performance in Ant-Man.
Speaker 1: Did he have a stammer as well in Ant-Man?
Speaker 4: No, which is the main thing I wanted exactly.
Speaker 1: Because when I was picking up on that is like like Moe was saying it's a rep, it's a very.
Speaker 1: It reminds you a lot of hero remains in my head.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking.
Speaker 1: It just feels like, yeah, this is the, this is the younger version of him.
Speaker 1: Um, I mean, he was not his time either.
Speaker 1: He had the same, he spoke the same way.
Speaker 1: There was something about it, like this one saying if he's got the stama under control the way he like pauses, and then it's like time Could be like there's a way, there's a cadence.
Speaker 1: That was exactly like he who remains, but taking millions or thousands or whatever you know units of years.
Speaker 1: He's gone in the future and he doesn't have that stammer anymore, but he still has the same cadence.
Speaker 1: It was like I was watching the same person, but if like a yeah, just a version of him that is not like different but younger and earlier, like, that's why I felt like I'm watching the exact same person.
Speaker 1: Yeah like the precursor to.
Speaker 1: He remains exactly like cuz.
Speaker 1: The stammer wasn't there exactly, but the way he spoke it was the same personality, the interest.
Speaker 1: Exactly I thought, and that's what I think that's what we're trying to get on.
Speaker 1: That, like Jonathan majors, is kind of purposely consistent in that performance, which is why I think it's a clue as well, because the one thing they did say, I think, was the Ant-Man Directors kind of commenting on Kang as a character, about how you'd have a lot of fun and then the actor gets to play the same character In many different ways.
Speaker 1: So it always stops me like why are these two so similar?
Speaker 1: And I thought that's why you even asked us about it.
Speaker 2: Um, thank, you but yeah, but yeah, it's probably fitting that I went I'm good last, because I think I was.
Speaker 2: I was kind of in the middle of the performance, right, because when it got to like the dramatic stuff towards the end when he's talking about you know, you don't know my heart, I'm a good person I was like, okay, cool, he pulled me in.
Speaker 2: Before that.
Speaker 2: Again it was like, yes, you know, getting like matching with the he who remains is fine, but it kind of took me out a little bit.
Speaker 2: It was like it was a bit comedy sketch of like, okay, this is a different Jonathan majors and maybe that's just me, although I looked online and I think other people had that opinion as well because it just feels like now it's like Every, every Kang or he who remains, or whatever has a tick like okay, this one stammers, okay, cool, oh, like the.
Speaker 2: if you go to the post credit scene, this one's British, this one's it's like Gets a little distracted for me, like I feel like we could do things a bit subtler, like it doesn't have to be something on the nose like a stammer, but yeah, you know.
Speaker 3: I thought, yeah, like the infantilization of the, of that character is meant to be, like it's sort of the way that he's portrayed as, yeah, the innocence sort of like transgresses into like very, very childish At times, and I think that that can be quite difficult for people to attach themselves to.
Speaker 2: So I think that's a good way to put it, yeah, because, yeah, almost kind of felt like dumbed out as well, exactly like you, like you were being condescended to by by Jonathan majors.
Speaker 3: Because, like yeah, like it felt like he was putting on a performance, like the character was Exactly, and I think that that's to do.
Speaker 3: That's more to do with the the Victor timely alter ego aspect.
Speaker 3: He's a con man.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, exactly the Victor timely alter ego thing.
Speaker 3: He goes on stage, he goes and does his show and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: So are you familiar with what you know like youtubers who like do present, like movie reviews and stuff like that?
Speaker 3: They all they'll have like a presentation voice, yeah that's what he's doing?
Speaker 3: basically, he's getting used to this presentation voice, getting used to like building up a story, used to like building up a stage presence, and then, as we see who, he who remains has got eons, eternity to practice it, until, because he's written that Sylvia and Loki will will be his final audience, right, yeah?
Speaker 3: So everything that he's been doing, it's just been practicing for Sylvia and Loki to finally, yeah, finally meet, and it does come out in that conversation, when he gives us the.
Speaker 1: This is where we dive, divert from the dog.
Speaker 1: My speech, exactly that it's, yeah, like it just felt so much like the same character to me.
Speaker 2: No, I think, yeah, like, like I said, like it's not like all the Performances are pulling and I have to watch through my fingers or something like that.
Speaker 2: It was like no, it was just like.
Speaker 2: It was just like that initial thing was a bit like okay, there's a tick, okay, let's, let's, let's get over this hurdle.
Speaker 2: But after that, like I said, like by the point where you know he's face-to-face with Sylvie's blade, I Was like, okay, I kind of buy it, like you know, I Don't know, I was gonna say I, I mean, yeah, I did kind of feel sorry for him.
Speaker 2: And again, like I said, hitler theory, he hasn't done anything yet.
Speaker 2: And you know, if a performance can make me feel like you shouldn't kill him right there giving who's playing him, then yeah, you've done something right.
Speaker 2: But yeah, that's that's it.
Speaker 2: And yeah, for those listening, you know, our patron had to come after the shadows there to to give us, to give us that that little talking point, cool.
Speaker 2: So let's go to the two ladies of the episode.
Speaker 3: Two of the three, two of the three there's exactly.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the main ladies of the episode, because I feel like this is there.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think one of them made a point that she was not a lady she was.
Speaker 3: He never made her right, right, yeah, yeah, you know, just just the chest.
Speaker 2: Right, I don't know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: Miss wrestling and miss minutes.
Speaker 2: I give up.
Speaker 2: I give up on on what pronouns or whatever to use.
Speaker 1: Yeah you're gonna get comfortable.
Speaker 1: The listeners are just going to hate me for banging on about legislative tomorrow again.
Speaker 1: But when you mention miss minutes, right, remember that episode where Bebo goes big.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I ain't seeing that tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Oh, fair enough, but like in my head the idea that you know there's news, there's, there's a whole kind of low key mass hysteria about this ghost clock in the town.
Speaker 1: Then the ghost clock shows up and the ghost clock goes be burnt a bit like big and terrorized that it like we.
Speaker 1: I saw it on a CW show.
Speaker 1: I'm not complaining, I loved it, but the similarities are there and I love the similarities because I like that show as well.
Speaker 2: Okay, you nearly as a last verse, like I totally forgot about that particular episode of legends of tomorrow.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I think the real question we should be asking is why Jeremiah has so much of legends in his brain.
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's, let's change the podcast.
Speaker 3: You know, what?
Speaker 1: That's a good question, because I haven't seen what's going on.
Speaker 3: If anyone's seen the new future on the first episode just has fries streaming content into his brain.
Speaker 3: Is that what you do with that?
Speaker 3: You did tomorrow, just before you go to bed funny enough future I'm.
Speaker 1: I came into my head for this episode as well.
Speaker 1: But see, bank, you just keep like accusing me of more drugs.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, if you want, if you want a rewatch series of Jeremiah and banking, wouldn't kill me for this.
Speaker 2: But like he's going to, yes, he's good to have to produce it and everything.
Speaker 2: But if you are a rewatch series of legends of tomorrow with Jeremiah, leave it in the comments and let us know.
Speaker 3: I'll rewatch a lost if someone wants to rewatch lost with me.
Speaker 2: Oh boy, here we go.
Speaker 2: I've opened Pandora's books.
Speaker 2: No, I'm doing prison, prison break, breaking bad, I would do.
Speaker 3: I would 100% do a rewatch of breaking dad.
Speaker 3: I need, I need my my complaints of Episodes one through six of the first season being prior first season to fall on.
Speaker 3: I'm more than just my parents years, because I can play the world.
Speaker 3: Anyway, I did want to say something yeah good about, about budget and CW.
Speaker 3: So you were saying about this house like a seed or this is very much like a CW show, which I haven't been but the budget of this was actually one of the lower budgets for MCU shows.
Speaker 3: It came in a 141 million, which seems high for a TV show.
Speaker 3: That's what, over six episodes.
Speaker 3: That's like I'm gonna do one, four, one, six, 20.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, 23 and a half million in episode.
Speaker 3: But it was one of the only projects that didn't have any reshoots done and I'm and I got something that I can send you guys afterwards if you are interested about, because we were saying about cinematography.
Speaker 3: But they shot a lot of the interior TV 18 animorphically.
Speaker 3: So try to sort of to get like a bit of a what perspective there, because obviously it's so close to a big set of gravity that you're gonna get some warping of space, which I thought was quite a nice touch.
Speaker 3: So you said there was specific like Visual styles and the in the TV.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 3: That was sort of what.
Speaker 3: What's going on?
Speaker 3: I'm done now.
Speaker 2: I'm done.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, no.
Speaker 2: I was just gonna say to close that thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I looked it up.
Speaker 2: That is of tomorrow's budget was about two million dollars in episode.
Speaker 1: So to be fair.
Speaker 2: I said.
Speaker 2: I said specific scenes, specifically the Brad Wolf scene, and I'm just like you know you can do two million and you can do 23, and then you know someone could Feel like they're similar.
Speaker 2: So let us pay your money efficiently.
Speaker 2: Basic.
Speaker 2: Very love red flare miss minutes, right.
Speaker 2: So they're they're kind of working together.
Speaker 2: They're trying to in their head in that he who remains plan and and yeah, I feel like this whole episode, two of them just kind of.
Speaker 2: They kind of they kind of almost feel like they're in competition together, like what do we think about?
Speaker 2: Like that's dynamic between both of them.
Speaker 2: Let me know what you did.
Speaker 3: The love triangle was definitely something that was hinted at at the end of Season one, so I was glad that they followed through with it.
Speaker 3: I Can't remember, so I remember where the episode ends, but I'm not gonna say more.
Speaker 3: But the love triangle is something that, like it was, like I thought it was.
Speaker 3: I Was when you could see the signs of it happening early on in the episode.
Speaker 3: I was glad that they followed through with it instead of just yeah, like hinting and dragging it on because, like the show have a lot to get through.
Speaker 3: So I was glad that they kept it very contained to that episode.
Speaker 3: Yeah, as far as like Getting the good stuff out of the way, like that scene with miss minutes and timely in the workshop or Whatever, that I thought was like a lesser show or even like any other Marvel show with without this creative team Would have probably pushed it to like the next episode of something.
Speaker 3: So I was glad that they can't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have to like.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Eric Martin is the head writer on the show right.
Speaker 3: So now, yeah, and he's written.
Speaker 3: He wrote every episode and with some assistance from like other story credits and stuff like that, but he's got like such a clear idea of where he wants this show to go and twists and turn so each episode feels distinct.
Speaker 3: In that it's.
Speaker 3: It's like I was glad that they got it out of the way so that they can really get into the, into the more interesting stuff.
Speaker 2: I yeah, no, I agree with you.
Speaker 2: And yeah, to come back to when we were talking about drugs, like I was watching the episode and then you'd see like Renslayer and Timely talking, and you know, there's the scene on the boat where he kind of tries to hold her hand and stuff like that and I could, from the corner of my eye I could see like mis-minutes with some very weird reactions and I was like, am I going nuts or was she getting upset?
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, that's good.
Speaker 2: And then you'd look it was weird because I don't know how the timings work but then I look back at her and she just smiles like normal.
Speaker 2: I'm like, am I going nuts or is something going on here?
Speaker 2: But yeah, jeremiah, what did you think about the whole?
Speaker 2: Basically, we're getting to the love triangle now, like Renslayer and mis-minutes.
Speaker 1: I had a similar reaction to you to that as well, because I had to look back like what like did I see what I just saw?
Speaker 1: That was part of.
Speaker 1: These are part of the things that I loved about the episode.
Speaker 1: It was those little quips like it was building up through the episode.
Speaker 1: And in that boat we're seeing her like like first she's scoffing, she's like huh, like just saying things, like even in his place that's not really his place she's reacting in certain ways and you're thinking what is this energy?
Speaker 1: I'm getting it from Miss Minutes.
Speaker 1: And then eventually on the boat, you see that you see her reaction.
Speaker 1: When you're like in my notes, I'm like well, this Miss Minutes versus Renslayer dynamic, like they're jealous, what is going on here, and then I'm wondering why she smiled at all of a sudden.
Speaker 1: But obviously when you watch that scene back and you see it in context, like oh, of course she's smiling because she realized the moment, the moment Renslayer mentioned partnership, she was done.
Speaker 1: So yeah, she's like right I don't think that was also another scene.
Speaker 1: Again, like there was a lot in this episode that was comedic but also layered enough to make you think it's like next thing she's being dumped like and she manages to follow.
Speaker 2: It was hilarious but it's also like to sassy, you know, like for her to actually stand on the boat and basically wave by like I was like.
Speaker 3: It was very single white female of her.
Speaker 2: I was like you know, like most AIs would just be, like you know, just very calm.
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, that's the logical thing to do.
Speaker 2: She was basking in her glory like I got my man.
Speaker 2: I'm like, ah, come on.
Speaker 3: You just said most AIs would do this.
Speaker 3: Do you have a lot of experience with AIs and love triangles or?
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't speak.
Speaker 2: I work in tech and I'm in top secret projects.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I mean I do.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I get a really really good customer service assistant on my banking app, which I know is AI, but some but like that could be me, so never.
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm dead.
Speaker 1: Well, you know what it's great you mentioned we'll probably.
Speaker 1: Well, maybe we should have talked about this earlier.
Speaker 1: But when we go back to OBE we'll probably talk about this, like the tech thing you mentioned.
Speaker 1: But my thing, while you were both talking about Miss Minutes, my question then is do you guys think Miss Minutes because this only just came to my mind now and maybe I'm an idiot for not thinking this before, or maybe I'm overthinking it now Do you guys think Miss Minutes actually felt that way?
Speaker 1: Because to me, right, it felt odd.
Speaker 1: I was like what the hell am I watching?
Speaker 1: Why is Miss Minutes professing?
Speaker 2: I think it needs to feel awkward, but I think it's been there, like even it's possible, because I think even was it in Victor Timely's like office or whatever.
Speaker 2: And I think when he's putting it together and he was like oh, you guys were the ones who kept the TVA running and like Miss Minutes rushed to the front to be like not her, it was me, I was there with you for Eons, like before her, after her, I was there.
Speaker 2: I was like okay, she's very keen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but what I'm saying is there's something Sylvie mentioned to Rensley.
Speaker 1: It's about power for you, and we know that as well that at the end of season one Rensley goes in search of free will because she wanted to understand what was going on.
Speaker 1: We also know there's some sort of relationship between Rensley and well and he who remains from Loki, and then Rensley and Victor Timely from the comics.
Speaker 1: But I'm looking like is it possible that Miss Minutes' goal here isn't necessarily love for her master, because she probably doesn't see this Victor Timely as her master?
Speaker 1: She did say in the office, like he just said you're so much like him.
Speaker 1: Is it possible that she intends to control this variant?
Speaker 1: And she thought that was her way in.
Speaker 3: Because even when Expensive popcorn for dinner scoop, Miss Minutes is a groomer.
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ.
Speaker 3: Well, that's one way to put it Like.
Speaker 2: I feel like you can't say anything else.
Speaker 3: Like oh yeah, no, it's very groomery.
Speaker 3: Like, oh, you remind me, you remind me so much of, effectively, your dad.
Speaker 2: Yeah and-.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but like you were saying, like what if this isn't he who remains and he's just orchestrating things to make sure he does it Like maybe Okay, so it was premeditated grooming.
Speaker 2: I think she's just in love.
Speaker 2: I think like the fact that he even looks like he who remains is enough for her, I feel like.
Speaker 2: And then obviously there's some traits, so you don't think there's any chance at all that like-.
Speaker 1: I think it's love Like he remains is trying to control this Victor timely I think it's love or Miss Minutes is trying to control he remains.
Speaker 1: I think Miss Minutes is in love, Like fair enough.
Speaker 2: She really laid it down bare Like as bare as she could Without the body.
Speaker 2: Like even when he put her off on the thing she said I, and then, when they bring her back at the end, she completes it with love you.
Speaker 2: She put everything, bare she's putting her face on her Fair enough.
Speaker 1: I think it's kind of me just like I don't know why they did that.
Speaker 2: but fair enough.
Speaker 2: She put all her cards on the table.
Speaker 2: Man Like it was just so there was no room for like.
Speaker 2: Is this friendship?
Speaker 2: Is this partnership?
Speaker 2: Yeah, but why?
Speaker 1: Because, like Rensley as well, essentially tried to do the same thing by holding his hand and say and establish yourself as by your side.
Speaker 1: So in this loop, in this cycle, I'm now going to be beside you and have just as much power as you.
Speaker 1: And he doesn't do partnerships and I'm thinking what if Miss Minnes is attempting the same thing in this cycle?
Speaker 1: But then the conversation they have there's, I had him under control.
Speaker 1: So it's like what if they both were trying to, you know, like Moe said groom him, maybe not romantically, but into something, and they were using that as their way in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I think they definitely want him to be he who remains.
Speaker 2: But yeah, let me go to Moe to build on this grooming idea that's his.
Speaker 3: No, not to do necessarily with her, not to do necessarily with growing, but we did hear those episode one, right, episode one written and written by Eric Martin and directed by Mohed and Benson, who are doing episode four as well.
Speaker 3: We know at some point that from what happened in episode one, that there is a conversation that either he who remains or Victor Time-Lease has with Ravonna, where he says you are quite the Marvel.
Speaker 3: We don't know when that happens.
Speaker 3: We don't know where that happens, yeah, and we also have a question of who pruned Loki in the future.
Speaker 3: Yeah, in the future, and I think that the cliffhangers from the season really do.
Speaker 3: From this episode in particular, it's going to be interesting to see whether or not what the big secret is, because we don't actually know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's my day.
Speaker 2: We wrote back that recording because I thought about that and I was like, OK, putting my comic book out on Ravonna Rensselaer is in a relationship with Kang the Conqueror, Like that's just the thing.
Speaker 2: Although Ravonna is very different, she's like a space princess or whatever.
Speaker 2: So I'm like, OK, is that just at least a hint at it, or something like that.
Speaker 2: But then in this episode we see that romantic spark is there and most of these shows there's always the best thing that almost in most of your timelines or whatever, you end up loving the same person.
Speaker 1: The same person, yeah.
Speaker 2: So I was like OK, so we're getting something there.
Speaker 2: But then I think this is my chance to just co-block, because these people are going to fall in love again.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm waiting to see how that whole thing ties together.
Speaker 2: I want to see what Ravonna is going to do now she's at the end of time and that kind of leads me straight to the cliffhanger for this episode, which was I've got a secret.
Speaker 2: I know, obviously it's so weird.
Speaker 2: Like we've gone so quick in the Miss Minnes arc, from grooming to professing love to getting dumped.
Speaker 2: So now she's a jealous ex, pretty much, or a spurned lover, and she's like now I'm going to expose his secrets and it's like do you want to know the one that's going to make you mad?
Speaker 2: Basically, now the woman in his life are teaming up against him, like we've spent through.
Speaker 2: So if this was a high school drama, this is like season one, love triangle, stuff that we've just spent through in 30 minutes.
Speaker 3: The next three episodes are he who Remains Must Die.
Speaker 2: And they recruit all his exes from the multi-verse.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, oh god, oh god.
Speaker 3: No, not the real one.
Speaker 2: Awful crying out loud.
Speaker 2: Ok, I wasn't thinking that.
Speaker 1: I was really more thinking like.
Speaker 1: The imagery in my head was like Power Rangers, red stuff forever in that episode.
Speaker 1: I don't know all his exes style Plenty red slayers Like no John Mayer's.
Speaker 2: Oh man.
Speaker 2: Oh god, oh, no, cool, before we go completely off the rails, like, what do we think the secret is?
Speaker 2: Obviously, moe, you've seen more than us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, jeremiah, what do you think the secret is?
Speaker 1: I have no idea.
Speaker 1: That's the simple, truthful answer.
Speaker 1: I have no idea, and at this point like again before Bunky starts telling me I'm also an alcoholic or something.
Speaker 2: I don't know what's going on in this podcast.
Speaker 2: Like if we don't get canceled in this podcast, then I don't know, like there's nothing we can't do.
Speaker 1: I don't want to over theorize, but I mean I would be interested in the idea that it has something to do with whatever the relationship runs there and Kang slash, timely slash, he who remains, slash, whatever other name or moniker he is going with.
Speaker 1: I would be interested in the idea that there is something critical that Miss Minnes hasn't yet revealed to Renslayer, or Renslayer is very important to how the story pans out.
Speaker 1: What that secret is, I simply don't know, because my comics knowledge of Ravon or Renslayer goes as far as reading about the relationship between her and Kang the Conqueror.
Speaker 1: So yeah, but I'm excited to see what they do with her One's even less.
Speaker 2: So don't stress, look, I'll tell you plain and pure, like it's just name only pretty much like nothing, nothing, nothing the same between but I liked what you were saying about the spark.
Speaker 1: I actually liked that little detail as well, because I was like oh, that's cute, like you, like they met and they seem drawn to each other instantly.
Speaker 1: And then the jealousy comes in from our cartoon cook.
Speaker 3: On that note, do you want to play a game called is it racist, oh boy, where basically people are theorizing that, like how Sylvie is a female variant of Loki Ravon is a female I was about.
Speaker 2: I was going to say that that is my, that is the only thing I could come up with.
Speaker 1: So much sense though I was.
Speaker 1: Just that would make sense of that.
Speaker 1: What would make you angry?
Speaker 2: Because I was literally saying like that was the next.
Speaker 2: Now, like when I sat down I was like that's the only theory I can think of, because I was like this season one was all about Loki and his variants, right yeah, and we ended up with Loki and Sylvie and the whole idea was that, like Loki is a trickster, so low keys tend to have like a nexus of it because they don't follow convention, what they should be here.
Speaker 2: But then we've Victor Timely, who is also a con man, and Loki almost kind of like he's a trickster pretty much, and it's like this season is basically been about he who remains and his variants.
Speaker 2: Because you know, loki heard of end of season one and he was terrified about it and all of that stuff.
Speaker 2: So I was like are we going to have something like that where, like Ravonna is a variant of he who remains, but like she has no idea about it or anything like that, and like we're just gonna have that symmetry, you know of like also, having look at it, that was the only thing I could come up with when I was thinking what could this secret be?
Speaker 2: But it seems very far-fetched, but like it was the only thing I could come up with, because she was like it's going to make you mad, because then it's going to be like hang on this power that I want that you're cutting me out of Ravonna being.
Speaker 3: It could in theory right, I have a most claim to it than you, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 2: So, it's like so, that will make her mad, like, wow, Okay, so I'm just trying to bring a partnership, but like, meanwhile, there's no reason you should have it and I shouldn't.
Speaker 1: What's wrong with this?
Speaker 2: That was my fault, basically.
Speaker 1: What's funny is going into this episode.
Speaker 1: So I didn't.
Speaker 1: I definitely did not think of Ravonna as a Kang variant.
Speaker 1: No, but going into this episode I did question.
Speaker 1: I was like what if there is a female Kang variant just out there?
Speaker 1: Like what if we see one?
Speaker 1: Who would they be?
Speaker 1: So, like this, you bringing this up to me it's just like wow, okay, what if that is it?
Speaker 1: But like I would like that idea.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, like you said, it's kind of a bit far-fetched Cause, as much as I'm not saying it won't happen In terms of the reaction of it's going to make you mad.
Speaker 1: It actually fits that.
Speaker 1: But in terms of who they've established them to be, so far we don't know where Rensler is from, but I think they I don't remember where- but they did show up on the timeline, yeah exactly Did they say what year?
Speaker 1: that was?
Speaker 1: In 2018, that was October 2018.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't a variant that existed in the 31st century.
Speaker 1: However, that being said, if they go exactly, if they want those time travel to, there's the idea that genetics are genetics and if enough random changes in the initial condition happen at a certain point, things can be so drastically different and some future generation could pop up so much earlier or so much later or whatever I like.
Speaker 1: I have no idea, but that might be too much physics or biology for Loki to dumb us down on Disney with.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 3: No, they just stick the word quantum in front of everything and then call it a day Fair enough, fair enough.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I didn't think too much in that.
Speaker 1: But when you mentioned symmetry, I can't believe we skipped over this, because the show Sylvie even mentions it to us.
Speaker 1: It's like this feels a bit familiar.
Speaker 1: I was in love with that scene when I realized I think there was a point with the camera pans and you're seeing them.
Speaker 1: They're at loggerheads, obviously and then Victor Timely is just in the back, kind of like cowering a bit, and it was exactly like the season finale.
Speaker 1: I was just like I love this so much Then playing that again, like imagine Sylvie already angry with Loki and then she's come to do something again and Loki's doing the exact same thing.
Speaker 1: Like I loved it so much.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think that symmetry and that callback was really nice.
Speaker 2: But yeah, that is my very I don't know out there theory about them being variants.
Speaker 2: And to bring it back, when Mo brought that off, he said is this racist?
Speaker 2: Because we've just seen a black man and a black woman and we're like they're the same person.
Speaker 2: I don't know man Like.
Speaker 3: To be fair, I've only ever seen the white nerds theorize that, so I don't know.
Speaker 1: There we go.
Speaker 1: That's maybe why it might be this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's this racist, but I kind of had the theory, so maybe not the theory itself?
Speaker 3: No, but I definitely think that that's what sparked the thought Like ooh, Possibly.
Speaker 3: But you wonder like, because B-15 is right there I know, but I think one of the things I wanted to sort of say is that, like there is a lot of symmetry in the show.
Speaker 3: But I would say that Benz and Mo are really, really great directors and they know how to make like you saw the picture or you saw my reaction.
Speaker 3: They know how to make your jaw genuinely drop at some of the stuff that they tee up.
Speaker 3: And I'd say that it's all.
Speaker 3: Theorizing is really really good at this point because we really don't know where it's gonna go.
Speaker 3: But I like we get a lot of answers, starting from next episode.
Speaker 2: Fair enough, I'm glad to hear that I think, like I always say, like I always say with theories, right, like theories are great, because in fandom, like you can't have a strong fandom without theories.
Speaker 2: You know, like think of every fandom, like there's always been like fan theories and stuff.
Speaker 2: I think sometimes like where things excel is that and like I've had this I think with Loki as well where it's like okay, they ended up with something like there's even far better than my theory, and I think that that's the beat seat of it as well.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, so I'm always like looking forward to what they do.
Speaker 2: Obviously, like I said, sometimes it can be like very painful of, like you know, right, to be fair, you only feel somehow like if whatever they pick is bad, and I kind of trust this creative team that it won't be bad.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, I'm easy which is one of the fun things as well like watching this week to week, because if I was just binging this, I'll just binge it through Like I would never waste my energy to theorise.
Speaker 2: But true, but yeah, no, like I really enjoyed this episode and obviously, with all the things we're hearing, next week is gonna be a great one as well.
Speaker 2: Quickly, before we sort of start trying to wrap up.
Speaker 2: Are there any things that you guys still want to call out for the episode?
Speaker 2: Quickly, moe, I'll go to you first.
Speaker 3: I think it's just worth mentioning again that some of the stuff that they do in the show, especially with the kind of extra runtime that they have on Disney+, it feels like it's the first.
Speaker 3: It's the first Disney+ show, or one of the only Disney+ shows, that actually feels like a proper show, that gets a lot of like Story, it gets a lot of world building and it feels essential and I think it's a nice breath of fresh air and if you really really like this episode, you're gonna just like your mind's gonna be blown for next episode.
Speaker 3: I want it to be on the podcast next episode, but I will.
Speaker 3: Vangie said no, he told me to jump off the cliff.
Speaker 3: Sounds like him.
Speaker 1: Did you tell him it was a partnership?
Speaker 3: Oh, you know what I didn't, but maybe I should have.
Speaker 4: Then he would have pushed me off the cliff.
Speaker 3: No boat, no boat allowed.
Speaker 2: Jeremiah, anything you want to shout out.
Speaker 1: I think, funny enough, we covered most of the things I had here, but the only thing that I mentioned will probably come back to the Obi-Wan techies thing.
Speaker 1: I absolutely love that scene where Obi-Wan is being that tech support guy that is telling them the server is about to crash and they're like can't you just hack into the system?
Speaker 1: It's like can't we just hack into the system?
Speaker 1: I love that whole thing and I thought maybe you might even you might get something out of that because we both work in tech.
Speaker 1: It's like oh yeah.
Speaker 1: That whole idea of the infrastructure engineer needs to get the infrastructure running.
Speaker 1: I liked that and again, their whole setup in that basement is literally like the server room prior to the cloud anyway.
Speaker 2: Proper work comedy for me, where I would just say an idea and people think it's.
Speaker 2: I'm telling them what to do.
Speaker 1: He even said something of she has administrative privileges.
Speaker 1: I'm like this is just a dare at work.
Speaker 3: I had a fun little idea.
Speaker 3: Obviously I know we're kind of in the context of we don't want to be over-saturated with Marvel stuff, but I thought how fun would it be if, instead of I am Groot next year, we just got like five three-minute shorts of Obi-Wan just doing TV stuff.
Speaker 3: Absolutely you could film it just one man in the volume responding to a work request and him having to just be around and film it cheaply.
Speaker 3: You could film it all in a day.
Speaker 3: I just think it would be really really nice and cute and I think I want to see more of Kihoi Kwan definitely doing more kind of family entertainment.
Speaker 3: I would love it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just him and Eugene Kudera answering like IT requests and stuff and fixing 10 pads and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: I would love it.
Speaker 1: Well, that actually does bring up one more thing, then.
Speaker 1: I think we kind of hinted at this already.
Speaker 1: I really want to see we've talked about the kind of the Kihoi remains and a Rensselaer connection.
Speaker 1: I want to see more of the Uroboros and Kihoi remains connection Because, like you said, well obviously there's that wild theory of what if Obi is the villain, but Victor Timely does tell us he feels like this is his correspondence between Uroboros, even if he technically gave it to Uroboros, who now technically give it to him which, like Mo mentioned, I was waiting for the right time to bring this up, but the fact that his name is literally that in mythology.
Speaker 1: I want to see that, like if there's anything.
Speaker 1: I mean it might just be a red herring again, like Bethesda and Ralph Bonner and whatever, but I actually want to see if there's anything there and I'm excited, which is what any any opportunity to get will be on the screen.
Speaker 1: I'm for it, I love it, I want to see it Awesome.
Speaker 2: Awesome, Awesome, yeah, we want to see more Kihoi Khan.
Speaker 2: He's the best, I think.
Speaker 2: One more thing I wanted to shout out in the episode was I think we finally got our first MCU mention of Boulder the Brave in this episode.
Speaker 2: And you know, if you've been online, you've heard rumors of, like you know, Daniel Craig was at one point supposed to be Boulder the Brave in the Multiverse of Madness as part of the Illuminati.
Speaker 2: He is basically what's the short version of MCU of Marvel, Boulder the Brave.
Speaker 2: He's basically the good version of Loki Thor's half brother who is nice and helps him out, and stuff like that pretty much.
Speaker 1: And then you know, for anyone, Interesting that he shows up on a Bran's timeline.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then Loki recognizes him, so he's still in the actual one, so it's interesting.
Speaker 2: So, again, with that rumor from Multiverse of Madness and this, I wonder if something's cooking with Boulder the Brave.
Speaker 2: You know, for the gamers listening as well, if you played God of War 2018, boulder is also the asshole.
Speaker 2: You stranger that you fight like three times.
Speaker 2: That takes like ages to kill.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think normally in mythology, barthas death is supposed to bring about Ragnarok, but obviously we've gone past that in the MCU, so we'll see an Easter egg for something to keep an eye on.
Speaker 2: I just thought it was worth mentioning.
Speaker 2: But, yeah, you know, another great episode of Loki.
Speaker 2: Like I said, everyone's telling us that episode four is going to be insane.
Speaker 2: We're going to be there to cover it for you guys and hopefully you guys are going to stick with us.
Speaker 2: Like we said before, at the top, we have episodes for Gen V coming out every week.
Speaker 2: We're going to cover Invincible when that starts in November.
Speaker 2: I've got other episodes on the channel, like for sex education, top Boy Winning Time, the Continental and the sister podcast is the cinemas back with the first episode for a bit and it's covering Taylor Swift's Eris tour.
Speaker 2: Check that out.
Speaker 2: You know, rate us, like us, share us with your friends.
Speaker 2: Let us know Again if you want to see rewatch episodes and stuff like that and we'll see if we can get them on.
Speaker 2: Also, yeah, special thanks to my guest, to Jeremiah, to Moe, who again editor-in-chief on streamer Moe.
Speaker 2: Is there anything you want to tell the listeners to kind of look out for from you guys?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we've just got kind of a lot of good stuff coming up.
Speaker 3: I've got, if anyone's seen, the show upload on Prime Video.
Speaker 1: I love that show.
Speaker 3: Season three just started.
Speaker 3: I did a breakdown of the premiere with the director of the premiere and then I've got an interview coming up with the director of the finale the last two episodes as well.
Speaker 3: Oh, my hoist just went but yeah, I know the product excitement.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did do an interview.
Speaker 3: If anyone's a future Alma fan, I did an interview with the producer of Future Alma for the final season.
Speaker 3: That was quite a fun.
Speaker 3: But yeah, no, just keep looking out.
Speaker 3: Actually, I've got a Taylor Swift article coming out next week but that's going to be fun.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's a um.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you guys, it's been a fun being with you guys.
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 2: an inside joke.
Speaker 2: I'm going to explain it at this point.
Speaker 3: I'm going to book myself for the finale because I don't think I'd want to talk about it with anybody else apart from you guys.
Speaker 2: Oh nice, nice, nice, nice.
Speaker 2: Get everyone in for the finale.
Speaker 2: Like seven of us on the part yeah, the multi-versus of.
Speaker 2: Pfd.
Speaker 2: We'll do a hype video and everything with, like the portals, music from Endgame and everything.
Speaker 2: Oh.
Speaker 1: I am so dead.
Speaker 2: But yeah, um yeah.
Speaker 2: No, it's been a pleasure having you on.
Speaker 3: It's been a pleasure being with you.
Speaker 3: You guys are great.
Speaker 3: You guys yeah, you're more fun.
Speaker 2: Also, yeah, um cool, all right guys.
Speaker 2: Um, thanks for sticking with us and yeah, check out upcoming episodes and take care.
Speaker 2: Have a good one.
Speaker 2: Cheers, guys.
Speaker 1: Yes, Bye everyone.