Dan Seed (00:00):
50 million miles from Earth is the asteroid benu, which every six years makes an orbit closer to earth than that of the moon. Back in 2023, NASA's Osiris Res mission returned samples from the asteroid to earth becoming the first US space mission to accomplish that feat. But what happens when those samples come back to Earth? That's what we're here to discuss on this month's episode of Big Ideas, a podcast from Texas State University. I'm your host, Dan Seed from the School of Journalism and Mass Communication. This month we're highlighting the work of Joe Aber sold the Texas State graduate, and his work is making it possible for scientists and the public to study high resolution images of samples collected from Benu. Joseph graduated from Texas State in 2016 with a bachelor's degree in geographic information sciences and currently works in the Aries division of NASA as the team lead for the advanced imaging and visualization of Astro Materials Group at the Johnson Space Center. Joe, thanks for being here.
Joe Aebersold (00:59):
Thanks, Dan. It was an honor to be in.
Dan Seed (01:01):
So Joe, tell us a little bit more about yourself. How did you settle on wanting a career in GIS?
Joe Aebersold (01:07):
It kind of ties into how I found Texas State as well. I actually had to travel halfway across the world to learn about Texas State when I was in Afghanistan. I worked with a contractor who was an alumnus and he told me about the program itself and I was already in image analysis and then my wife got accepted into the UT PhD program, and so I knew Texas University was going to be where I landed, and Texas State was the one that just felt the most home during all of my campus tours.
Dan Seed (01:38):
And talk about your experience here at Texas State. What was that like and how did that add to your already the knowledge that you already possessed in this?
Joe Aebersold (01:48):
It was great coming into the program because it gave me an academic background, if you will, a foundation theoretical foundation for all the practical knowledge that I already got in the military. And so that was the strength of the program and kind of how it melded with what I already knew, and it definitely has benefited me moving forward with my work.
Dan Seed (02:06):
I was going to say clearly, I mean, you're at nasa, right? And so it's clearly benefited you and we'll talk about that. How cool your job is here in a little bit. In fact, we'll talk about it right now is the division of NASA and it's the curator for all NASA held extraterrestrial samples. How cool is it to go to work there every day? And did you ever really envision this as your full-time job?
Joe Aebersold (02:28):
I must say I never thought it would happen, but I did envision it, it would've been a dream to work at NASA for a long time. So when they came calling, it was no option to say no. Of course. It was quite breathtaking going into work. A lot of stuff has moved remote most times nowadays, but going to work pre pandemic every day, going through that front gate of JSC, you see the Saturn five rocket building, you can peek and actually see it as you drive by Rocket Park, which people can see if they go to the Space Center Houston, and just going through down the thoroughfares of all the historic things that happened with the space program and the human space flight there in JSC, it's pretty awesome. And then getting to go into these curated labs and seeing all the samples in person. Yeah, it hits you. It hits you quite often.
Dan Seed (03:15):
Yeah, I was going to say that's going to be a feeling like you're a part of something a lot larger, right? That you're a part of this mission and you're following in those footsteps that have been going on for 60 plus years.
Joe Aebersold (03:26):
Absolutely. The legacy has definitely felt,
Dan Seed (03:28):
And when we talk about what you do, there's an additional connection with Texas State. I was reading your bio or another article about you and you're the grant specialist for Texas State's Office of Research and sponsored programs at Johnson Space Center Engineering and Technical Support Program. Walk us through that connection. How does that all align?
Joe Aebersold (03:50):
So I think all of us that have been added as Texas State employees are listed as grant specialists. You'd have to talk to Stan McClellan about how the finances and titling works with that. On the NASA side, we work for Jacobs as a subcontractor of Texas State. And so my title on that side is just a scientist, and then from there you can actually learn what your actual specialty is. So image analyst or team lead for ava. But yeah, so I don't do anything with grants. It's just how it had to work out with the agreement between Texas State and Jacobs to become official.
Dan Seed (04:26):
Got you. But that past continues, right? I mean, it's kind of interesting that you're an alumnus of the university and then here you are. It's still tied into them in a sense at Johnson Space Center.
Joe Aebersold (04:37):
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't be working at NASA if not for Texas State. It all started with the internship at Texas State, not even in person at first doing the astronaut photography, cataloging. So the astronauts up on the ISS take tons of images through a requests docket to photograph specific things or just as they do it, as the rep there and they have spare time and they want to do it. And so all those photographs are useful in some form or fashion. So Texas State was part of an agreement with NASA to do cataloging of it so we could have a place to say where it's found on the surface of the earth and what it might be showcasing in the photograph. And so working through the geography department, which was the perfect relationship for NASA and Texas State to do that, geo rectification and identification, and then going from that remote internship into an in-person internship directly with JSC and working for the image science and analysis group led to employment and now this new AVA effort
Dan Seed (05:36):
And internships are so important. We talk to our students about that all the time. It's the connections. It's getting your foot in the door and meeting people and being able to prove yourself in that environment. So if there are any students listening, get that internship. They're really important. So let's get to the heart of the issue here, Joe. The mission team on this project recovered a sample canister from its landing spot in the Utah desert, and then that's where your team comes in. Walk us through that. When they bring that in, what's the process?
Joe Aebersold (06:08):
So when they brought it back from Utah, they put it into this clean room. And this is where in my expertise I pay attention while we're prepping myself and my cohort, Erica Blumenfeld, the photographer here, we are prepping for anything they can throw at us. So we're cursorily paying attention. So my information won't be the perfect details here, but they bring it in, they get it situated, the whole sample canister return everything. They bring it in, they get it into the glove box, and they have to keep everything very tightly controlled. Contamination, contamination, contamination, they have to control that, and that's a source of a lot of our problems as well. And so they make sure no contamination happens, they get it into the glove box. Then that's when they open that first clamshell we called it. But they open the sample container, the lid, they take the lid off of the return container, and then they call us in after they've done some first looks.
(07:12):
So the science team would have members that would come in and do some first looks, see what everything looked like. They notice this is the first look anybody is getting back. So of course the PI wants to be there and see it. The lead curator for NASA is going to be there and see what state the sample's in. And that's when they noticed. And those first images, you can see that there's a lot of dust blown around that they didn't expect, and they asked us ad hoc, can we capture that? But after they do their first looks and maybe collect a first sample or something like that for the science team to get immediate hands on, they call us in and they give us, I can't remember at this point, but several hours maybe the end of the day, we come in, we set up, we evaluate our lighting and everything, and then we get those great shots.
(07:55):
Some of the first shots that came out back in October are the ones of the lid. You see just the lid sitting there in that first glove box. And that was, we call that the magazine cover shot, myself and Erica, that's what we call it. We thought it was going to make it to some magazines. Everybody ended up liking the tag. Sam Moore. That's actually made us some covers of magazines now, but that one was beautifully framed and that's the one that the world got to see first. Other than I think maybe some people took some phone pictures out there somewhere, but that's the one that the public got to see. That was the first striking image.
Dan Seed (08:26):
How fascinating is that for you? I mean, you're mentioning these scientists coming in, they get the first look and then it's like you and your teammate come in. You're some of the first people to actually see that. What is that moment like?
Joe Aebersold (08:38):
That was crazy. Just knowing that the science team, I can't remember the number, but it's something like 200 maybe that might be even low balling people on the science team that are actually going to be doing the science on the samples with samples that they get allocated or other data that they get from this. They were never going to be in the room with this thing. And here I am, just a guy that takes photos, real nice photos, and I get to be in the room with this thing along with 10, 12, 20 other people in the world that are ever going to be in the room with this sample from Penu. I mean, it's crazy.
Dan Seed (09:13):
Yeah, it's going to be just an awesome moment again, to be one of the few people to actually be there to see that. I mean, it's fascinating stuff. Again, we're joined by Joe Aber sold the team lead for NASA's advanced imaging and visualization of astro materials. So Joe described for us, you mentioned dust, you mentioned the cover, the magazine cover shots there. Describe for us exactly when you saw these, you photographed them, what the samples consisted of. You mentioned the dust, are we talking rocks, other samples like that? What exactly was in there? What did you photograph?
Joe Aebersold (09:46):
So the dust was, I think it was speculated, it was blown around during the pressurization of that canister. So that was the smallest stuff that got potentially blown out of the tag Sam, that touch and go sample module where the bulk of it was contained. Everything else that was captured in the tag, Sam is much larger. We're talking pebbles all the way up to, I believe the biggest sample was about a skipping stone size, maybe a small skipping stone size, a fit in the palm of your hand type of deal. So the entire range of that from specs of dust to that size sample is what it is. And it was very dark with some inclusions. It's a geologic term, so I say that only color-wise thinking color inclusions, I don't mean it in any type of mineral. Obviously there's something in there, but that's not for me to determine. But we could see it wasn't just straight black sample. So it's got colors in there. Then that's why these scientists want to get in there. They want to study it and then want to find out what is there. Because keys to the answers to a lot of questions about the universe.
Dan Seed (10:50):
And once the samples come to you, what's the process of creating these 3D images? Is there a standard process or is there something that you and your team kind of have to create based off of, like you mentioned the lighting, the types of samples that can make this a bit of a challenge?
Joe Aebersold (11:06):
So the 3D hasn't been done for benu yet. You actually touched on something we can talk a little bit about here. But the 3D part of AVA is the prior work with lunar and meteorite samples, and that was all Eric's brainchild, Erica Blumenfeld photography, interdisciplinary artist and scientist. She came up with this idea to make 3D models of these samples and then marry them with XCT data to have a non-destructive way to sample or slice through, cut through samples. Because before this had happened, anytime anyone wants to do research on these samples, they have to submit a request to NASA and propose what their science is and then kind of guess where they want to cut it, how much of the sample they want to cut it, and it's destructive. We can't go back once that step has happened. Now if you use this tool that we've created, you can digitally slice through with the XCT data married up to the external color data that Erica took with photographs, and we marry that up in the same coordinate system and you can slice through and see where a mineral or a color that you see on the surface might marry up with something inside the rock.
(12:27):
In particular fractures. You can see fractures and voids propagate throughout the rock and the XCT data. So that was the thought process behind the 3D data. Now to answer your question about do we have to create things? Yes, actually we're in the process right now of designing a turntable. So if you look at some of the photos on the A 3D website, you can see our photo sets that we use to make this data. There is a rotation stage that has targets on it, and I use that to do structure for motion photogrammetry, which I learned about at Texas State. And that is used to give this rock a coordinate system and scale. If we didn't have scale, I wouldn't be able to give proper scale data to marry it up to the XCT data because one of these two, usually the XCT data is always going to be more precise.
(13:20):
And these samples range in the lunar and meteorite samples that we've already done. They're usually hand size and larger. So that's why we're creating a new one and to design a new one on a smaller scale for these samples that I just told you about, the range of sizes for bending. So that's what we've done. We've scaled that down and made sure that we're going to be able to resolve these targets in these photos at a smaller scale and then be able to use that data to properly scale these smaller samples. We're in the process of fabricating that. I've done the designs for the rotation stage target setup, and we're just waiting for some metal to get cutting and then to get called in and do this 3D thing for what's called the heart of benu. I think that's a public enough term to say that's that largest sample size that came out of the sample that skipping stone size rock, and it's got some real great coloration on it, and I would want to preserve it for all time because it's the best thing to come out of the best looking individual rock to come out of that.
(14:19):
But all these scientists want to cut into it right now. Of course, they want us to do 3D on it so they have the ability to have it in posterity for all time.
Dan Seed (14:28):
And I was going to say, you've mentioned a few times, right? You're not doing the analysis of this stuff, but the work that you and your team do, and you've touched on that is super important not only for the scientific community, but I would imagine for the public as well, these images, are they viewable online? Are these things that the public can then look at and see and interact with, or are they held separate? Like, okay, we're going to keep that here and then eventually we'll show them? How does that work?
Joe Aebersold (14:58):
So at the early stages, everything we did got straight to the science team, and then they did some limited releases for pr. Like I said, the magazine cover shot, there's early photos of the tag Sam, but at this point, the Osiris-Rex, forgetting the official name of it data catalog, I believe something to that effect has the entire image set that ava, my team, myself and Erica took, and that everything was available to the sign team is available to the public. They should also be a subset of those available on images.nasa.gov. And maybe eventually all of them will be available there. So they are available to the public. Yes, everything we've taken of Osiris Rex is available to the public. And then the same thing will be true when it comes to the 3D data. The PR power of the 3D is one of the strengths of the 3D program, making sure that the public can get it out there and see it. Another part of that idea that Erica had was what if you could hold a moon rock in the palm of your hand, which you can pull these things up on your phone.
Dan Seed (15:56):
Yeah, yeah. Talk about that a little bit. I mean, the ability to reach the public, educate the public. I mean that that's a big part of what you do.
Joe Aebersold (16:04):
Yeah, I mean everybody, well, everybody there is accessibility limited people, but most people have the ability to comprehend the visual medium, and it's a big storyteller. Erica writes text stories to go along with these rocks because every rock tells a story she'll love that I drop that in there for.
(16:25):
And so all these samples, you get a picture book to go with it. And the 3D page that we have out there right now, A 3D, I'll also get you a link for that, is accompanied with a PIN system. So NASA curators for the lunar and meteorite collections were requested by our team to go in and make a couple pins, whether they be on the surface or in the XCT data and say, Hey, this is what this particular feature says about this sample. And so there's also little mini scientific stories in there too. So that all is accessible to the public and it's enabled research. We've actually had people publish papers citing the A 3D website as a research tool because of what I said. You can go in there and digitally slice through the exterior, the interior and make scientific hypotheses out of this data for sure. And then that can inform a request tenacity to do physical cutting if that's needed to further your research.
Dan Seed (17:20):
It's fascinating the way technology enables so many folks to have these experiences from afar or to learn about it in storytelling in science. Very important, right? In the sense that the average person isn't going to get the science, but the story behind it is what draws them in.
Joe Aebersold (17:39):
Absolutely. Yeah. The geologic story of what these moon rocks tell what happened to the moon or meteorites where they may have come from the origin of the meteorites in our collection is where the story originates from where that rock came from. They were most, if not all collected in Antarctica and identified by origin. So what was that rock's journey to earth? What did it have to say on its way and what can it tell us now? Yeah, the story is absolutely one of the most successful parts.
Dan Seed (18:05):
Really interesting. Now, if you could, what are some of the other projects that you've worked on both in space, and I've seen that you've done some on earth for NASA as well. Talk about those.
Joe Aebersold (18:17):
Sure. Like I mentioned earlier, my internship and employment started with the image science and analysis group, which was also a part of es, but it primarily focuses on supporting ISS operations. So International Space Station mainly supporting engineering requests from the engineering team, the flight ops directorate. And my claim to fame, if you will, on that side was, so photogrammetry is the primary tool that we use over there.
Dan Seed (18:47):
And what is that for our audience?
Joe Aebersold (18:49):
Yeah, sure. So you can take images, even the images that we've taken of OSIRIS rx and you can derive mathematical data from them given geometry and known data about the scene you seeing. So you can take two images of one scene, if you will, one thing. And if you offset those images by a certain amount and the amount that is, and some things about the scene, you can derive scale of things in the scene, how far apart those cameras were, you can work backwards, things like that. So the astronauts don't get to have just a ruler or some tape measures up there on the internet space station. It's not something they can have. So if sometimes, a lot of times on the inside, but a lot of times, most of the times on the outside of the IS s needs to be measured, that's when they call iag.
(19:42):
And another thing that happens with IAG is the inspections. So a lot of people might see the Boeing in the news right now, the star liner and the problems it's having. So IAG has been working very hard to try and give NASA as much data as it can get to make that decision that they have to make about whether or not they're going to bring 'em back on that. So crew safety is a big mission of is sag. It was actually stood up after the challenger tragedy and then continued on and supported Columbia and is all about cruise space life safety to this day. So that's primarily is a's mission. And so I've worked a lot with that. My mentor at the time, lead Photogrammetric, Don Little, he said there's only like 10 or so people that have done photogrammetry on the inside and outside of ISS and I'm in that small group. And it's another one of those, yeah, it's another one of those mind blowing moments. So it's pretty cool.
Dan Seed (20:37):
That's very neat. So we're running up against our time here. I want to give you the opportunity, we've talked about it at length, the amount of influence Texas State had on you and being able to get to where you are now. Tell us about the geography department. What should people know about it? This is that time of year when new students are starting to come in, people are undecided in majors, have an opportunity here to talk about your folks a little bit.
Joe Aebersold (21:04):
I graduated back in 2016, so a little bit dated at this point. But yeah, the geography department was great. Tons of great people, great programs. They really care about getting you knowledge, both theoretical and practical. And there's that existing relationship. Like I said, if it hadn't been for the existing relationship between some of the faculty and NASA that they had been for several years at the point that I came in, I wouldn't be where I am today. And I'll always encourage more people to be geographers. We need 'em in every aspect. So if you don't know what GIS is, imagine Google Earth if people still know what that is or Google Maps and making that, that's what GIS is. So ground truthing and reality capture, all these things are worlds that open up to you if you get a degree in geography. And there's a lot of different places you could go from there. It informs a lot about the world. You can make decisions, everybody, not everybody, but a lot of industries want geography knowledge out there these days. So look into the geography department, Texas state,
Dan Seed (22:08):
It's an important thing. As you said, it's something that's so ubiquitous. We use these things without ever thinking about how they're produced. There are people that produce them. And so it's an important thing. And I would imagine even from your time in 2016, you've surely noticed just an uptick in this kind of stuff and the demand and the need for it.
Joe Aebersold (22:32):
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Things have gone much more advanced than just 2D aerial mapping these days. Google Earth itself, and Apple and all these guys, they've moved into two and a half D or 3D, so you can get down to the street level, but still see models of buildings and interiors of buildings, and it's gone crazy. There's a lot out there, a lot out there. More than just aerial mapping and remote sensing.
Dan Seed (22:56):
Well, Joe, thank you for being here and telling us about all the fascinating work that you and your team do down at NASA and keep us updated on anything that you have coming down the pike. We'd love to talk to you again.
Joe Aebersold (23:07):
It was a pleasure, Dan. I thank you for inviting me and I look forward to sharing more of our work with the public. Absolutely.
Dan Seed (23:13):
Absolutely. Joe, thank you very much. And again, those links to the project, you can find them in the summary on our page for big ideas. And we want to thank you, the audience for the pleasure of your time in downloading and listening to another episode of Big Ideas. We'll be back next month with a new episode. Until then, stay well and stay informed.