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The Brand Design Masters Podcast with Philip VanDusen is dedicated to helping you build the skills you need to design bullet-proof brands - for yourself, your business and for the clients and customers you serve.
In every episode, Philip, his co-hosts and interview guests will share inspiration, ideas, trends and techniques that will lift you to greater heights as a creative professional or entrepreneur - so you can build a successful creative practice, business and personal brand in the Creative Economy.
Investing in Yourself: with Branding Expert Robert Smith
The Brand Design Masters podcast, EP 138
Robert Smith: [00:00:00] The best investment that you can make as an individual for your longevity in the industry, okay, is not learning new software that will come and go. What you need to do is you need to surround yourself and peers. You need to challenge yourself creatively. You need to invest in yourself in time.
Robert Smith: Sometimes people associate investing in themselves as money and really, it's more about time.
Announcer: Welcome to the Brand Design Masters podcast, the show dedicated to helping you build the skills you need to design bulletproof brands for yourself, your business, and for the clients and customers you serve. And now here's Phillip.
Philip VanDusen: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. I'm excited to introduce our guest in this episode, Robert Smith. Robert's an internationally recognized branding expert, professor, and author, who in his own words, takes creativity and business very seriously. His design and branding work has garnered over a hundred awards for excellence and creativity.
Philip VanDusen: He's also [00:01:00] the founding member and former vice president of the Association of Registered Graphic Designers, the RGD, in Canada. In his career, he's built two successful agencies working with brands including Warner Brothers, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, DC Comics. The royal Canadian mint and also helped build the iconic farm boy brand which went on to be sold for 800 million dollars Robert has most recently distilled his experience into a book Called stop looking for zebras aimed at guiding creative professionals to achieve their highest goals And full disclosure robert is also a contributing member of my bonfire mastermind community acting as one of our community coaches And so with that i'm happily welcoming robert
Robert Smith: Thank you so much, Philip.
Robert Smith: It's a pleasure to be here. I'm really excited.
Philip VanDusen: Cool. So you just published a book and for the people who may be watching this on video, I'm holding up the book. Stop looking for zebras. Tell me what what [00:02:00] brought this book out of you?
Robert Smith: It's funny. Stop looking for zebras is actually my second book.
Robert Smith: My first book was called the Frankenstein condition and it deals with mental health and social media. Yeah. And how we deal with that and self confidence and in a discussion with my parents at one point when they found out that I was writing a book, they said, Oh, what about design?
Robert Smith: Are you writing about? And I said it has nothing to do with design actually. And they were shocked because I've been in the industry for so long. Why wouldn't I write a book about design? And to be honest, at that time I was considering it, but I looked at everything that was out there and I didn't feel that I had.
Robert Smith: I didn't want to add to the noise. I felt there's a lot of noise in that space. It was either books award books, or it was books on here's our portfolio. And dealing with aesthetics and things like that. And for me, it goes much deeper. So I didn't feel like I was ready at that point.
Robert Smith: So I published the Frankenstein condition did very well. And then a number of years later, I thought. You know what, actually, I think it is time to write a book about design, but not with pretty [00:03:00] pictures and not with awards but more about the longevity of the industry and having a career that can last decades.
Robert Smith: And that's something that I've been able to achieve. And I know you've done the same, Philip. And, how do you do that? How do you go about that? So I embarked on this book, which is like one color on the inside. There's not, Pantone colors or anything like that. It's just a deep dive into my experience over the years.
Robert Smith: The pitfalls the accolades, all of the ups and downs that you can go through. And. How to manage yourself and your mental health in this industry for that amount of time, because and it's a quote from the book where I say, after 30 years in the industry, I can honestly say that I still get up in the morning excited and passionate about what I do, and I want the same for you.
Robert Smith: And that's basically that encompasses the book.
Philip VanDusen: Do you think that, you've been a university teacher for decades, over a decade, right? And and do you, how do you feel like you're teaching young people in university [00:04:00] about design has affected how you approach to this book or even the messaging within the book?
Robert Smith: Again, having been in the industry for so long and having two of my own agencies, I'm dealing with staff and in dealing with staff, you're dealing with personalities and different personalities, different expectations, different career goals. So I've been able to see. The struggles that people go through as well as my own and being able to speak to current students about what to look for, because frankly, at the school level, you're learning a lot of technique.
Robert Smith: You're learning a lot of how do you use Photoshop? How do you do this? How do you do that? And it's all executional and really the longevity of our industry. And as a result your position in the industry It all comes down to the thinking process. It comes down to passion. It comes down to intuition.
Robert Smith: It comes down to intention, which are non technical, non software based acts. And that's what we as people bring to the table. So I always focused my [00:05:00] classes on on that mental state of being a designer and being creative. Under the gun, which is the whole concept of stop looking for zebras, stop overcomplicating everything the solutions are there, they're easily found, and you don't want to create something new because your audience won't like it.
Robert Smith: Audiences don't like new, they don't know what to do with new they need context, need familiarity, and so we spend too much time trying to come up with that. Ultimate idea that, groundbreaking concept, right? Where the reality is there's a good chance. It won't resonate because people won't know what to do with it.
Robert Smith: Again. I use the example of the smartphones. Really are used for that device as a phone is. Down the line in Ultimate uses, right? The actual, as a phone. It's like fifth or sixth in our uses. But if we called it anything but an iPhone or a smartphone people wouldn't know what to do with it.
Robert Smith: They know context. Oh, it's a phone. Alright, I know what to do with that. [00:06:00] The engagement. Happens quicker when they have that. And then slowly. Oh, there's apps. Oh, you can do this. Oh, you can do that. So when we look at again, ideation and particularly the fact that we are solving solutions for clients with an audience in a short time frame.
Robert Smith: So we need as much as possible to help us out in being creative. And so those are the things that I taught. In fact, in my class, there were no computers. We didn't turn a computer on the whole time, the whole semester. Was that shocking? Was that shocking to your students? They really didn't know what to do.
Robert Smith: They had their devices with them and I said, okay, turn them over. We don't need them today. And it took a couple of classes. Then it became habit. Did you kind
Philip VanDusen: of, did you end up farming your students fears and insecurities and their questions for the topics that you covered in this book?
Robert Smith: Absolutely. And that's why, cause I also do some mentoring online in a, on a platform. And so I, I get to meet a lot of people from [00:07:00] around the world actually and talk about their issues and what they're struggling with in this industry. And Regardless of culture, regardless of how you identify, regardless of your economic background, every one of them fought the same issues, self esteem, self confidence, all of them, nobody signed up for my 30 minute coaching.
Robert Smith: Ever brought up technology. And so that's, to me, there was the proof of concept of what we do in the industry. We're always looking for, okay, what, how do we become relevant to our audience? And so that's why I put off being a design author up till that point. Now I'm like, okay, here's the whole.
Robert Smith: Here is the whole, we need a book that is not eye candy that talks about you and your health and your mental state and how you can do it over the long term. So all of these things, culminated into that, that, that approach.
Philip VanDusen: I have to say that your book is eye candy. It may be one color, but it's really got a lot of fun kind of [00:08:00] Ralph Stedmanese esque sort of illustrations in it.
Philip VanDusen: It's got a lot of cool typography. So if you're interested in a book on creative careers and from somebody who's had a long illustrious creative career, Stop Looking for Zeke Rose is available on Amazon and other platforms directly on his website as well. And this is about crafting the career.
Philip VanDusen: And like you said, so much of approaching your career, isn't the technical, it is the people skills. It's the soft skills. It's the internal emotional intelligence, all that sort of stuff. And so when you're working with your students or your coaching clients, how do you address or how do you even recognize a lack of confidence?
Philip VanDusen: And then how do you recommend that they build it? What's your approach for that?
Robert Smith: So my approach when somebody obviously the filter being when somebody engages with me for coaching or I'm doing portfolio reviews or things like that, they're there for a reason. They're stuck. I don't know what to put [00:09:00] in my portfolio.
Robert Smith: I don't know how to move forward. What do I do? And we know that we are our own worst enemy as far as our own careers and things like that goes and that we're excellent at doing for other people. Putting through a process and promoting them, but when it comes to promoting ourselves, that's the biggest hurdle.
Robert Smith: And so what I usually do is I asked I have a questionnaire and then I check out their website and I check out their LinkedIn and look at the language and look how they show up. In these places, and if there's a lot of distancing of themselves then that gives me a sense of, okay there's some self consciousness here and or it's all work and nothing about them.
Robert Smith: And again, that's also a problem. I think the biggest thing that I come across is people say is that paralysis that comes when somebody decides I'm going to do some self promotion. I'm going to build a website. And the 1st thing we do is we look at other designers websites to get an idea of how we should approach this.[00:10:00]
Robert Smith: And then we stop. I'm not going to I'm not going to do this because now I've seen five other portfolios and they're wholly macro, they better than mine. And so I'm just, and then imposter syndrome hits, right? Like, why am I doing this? I'm such a hack. This is horrible. And that and there's where you are.
Robert Smith: I can tell these things in their case studies. And this is another thing that I feel strongly about is the language that we use when we talk about our work and we talk about ourselves are using the words, and to describe their work. It means that again, there's an issue with the self confidence and they're diminishing their work before somebody else can.
Robert Smith: And so what I want them to do is to speak in terms of intention and purpose, Everything that they did in their portfolio was done for a reason. It had a purpose. And that way the confidence is there when you speak about your work confidently. And it means that the person on the other side of the screen or table that you're speaking to picks up on that, right?
Robert Smith: Energy is [00:11:00] transferable. And when you show up. Proud of the work and solid about how you're describing it. You're not going to use sorta, you're going to be very confident. Your posture is going to change. Your eyes are going to be wide. You're going to gesture that is all transferable and that all elevate the room and that's the space where you want to be.
Robert Smith: So when I meet with people, I always look at. All of their stuff, because their self-promotion, how they're putting their self out there is an ecosystem. You've got social media, you've got a website you've got blog posts, you've got all of these different things that have different purposes. So I want to analyze those and look at them and see what the narrative is.
Robert Smith: Are you just repeating the same thing over and over again, or is there a thread?
Philip VanDusen: I want to take a moment and tell you about Wix Studio. As creative pros, we know the challenges, tight deadlines, client feedback, and keeping everything on track. Wix Studio is a web design platform built for pros working in agencies, [00:12:00] enterprises, and independently, and it gives you full creative control with advanced design features while helping you manage your projects really efficiently.
Philip VanDusen: With AI tools that speed up repetitive tasks and integrated client management features, Wix Studio helps you focus on what really matters, designing great websites. Plus, the platform comes with built in growth tools so you can scale your business as you take on more projects. So if you want to streamline your process and create exceptional websites without the usual headaches, check out Wix Studio.
Philip VanDusen: It's a platform that's really made for professionals like you and me. Just go to wix studio.com. That's wix, WIX studio.com.
Philip VanDusen: That I want to shift the tack a little bit and say, in that vein, what do you think the biggest challenge facing creative professionals is today in the world? The rise of automation and the rise of [00:13:00] ai. It's. It's a waterfall of new information and new tools these days that are freaking a lot of creatives out.
Philip VanDusen: So what do you think is the the biggest
Robert Smith: challenge? It's the fear of relevance. People are struggling with relevance as an industry. And it's not internally, it's externally. And it's something that I think a lot of people feel that they're, it's out of their control. Because the world is being told that AI will do it all for you, soup to nuts.
Robert Smith: So that's why designers and creatives are freaking out, right? They're like now what? And the idea is nothing will replace the human condition. Nothing will replace our knowledge of interacting with other humans. What we do in the design industry is communication person to person.
Robert Smith: People to people and there's no replacement for that a I, just like when desktop publishing came in, just like when the Internet came in were moments in our industry where people felt a lot of fall over. [00:14:00] And it never was because people recognize the use. Now that said, we, as an industry and as individuals, we do need that extra step now of the explanation.
Robert Smith: Here's why you need to spend money on a creative. Yes, you've got, AI available to you. But, you need, and I use I use 3D printing as an example. If you've got a bad file, you put it in the 3D printer, you get a blob at the end. If you've got a good file, which takes intention, work, research, and you put it in the machine, you get a really nice figure at the other end, but it still needs to be finished.
Robert Smith: It needs to be polished. It needs to be painted. It needs to be finished. So at both ends of 3d printing, you've got human interaction that makes the best product at the end. AI is no different. You need good intention, thought and human at the front, AI in the middle, and then we need to go back through it to make sure.
Robert Smith: Everything is all working properly, shave off the edges a [00:15:00] little bit and then put it out there. It's no different and the same with desktop publishing and all the things that came about it, so we've got to get over that as an industry. No, we're this is how we move forward and then we need to take the reins and guide the conversation with clients.
Philip VanDusen: Yeah, my, my perspective on AI is one of its design has been increasingly over the, even the last decade commoditized and as the global economy has grown, design has been increasingly commoditized. And the one thing that can't be commoditized is the strategy behind the design. And that's one of the things that I proselytize about this all the time.
Philip VanDusen: The need for designers to understand the strategic underpinnings of the work that they do why it has to be the way it is and what its purpose is what kind of action it is architected to make happen and that's the sort of thing those are the kind of, connecting the human to the action sort of [00:16:00] dots that I think take.
Philip VanDusen: Human strategy to lay out as far as a construct. I think that's very difficult to do with AI. AI is going to produce a thing. It can produce an image. It can produce some copy, but the prompt is what makes that happen. And the strategy of how it's utilized is what makes it work. And so I think that there's, like you said, I think it's a kind of a tool that sits in the middle.
Philip VanDusen: But because it is. In some cases spitting out stuff very quickly and easily like the cork express used to do in the nineties, it's threatening everybody's sense of identity and existence. It will change some roles. I don't think that it's going to, it's going to destroy the entire industry personally.
Robert Smith: And in Canada, we and anywhere really, but we have it mandated here. It's similar to when we are doing a copywriting up here. I'm [00:17:00] working on a campaign right now that has highly creative headlines. We can't simply get them translated. They have to be adapted, right? So any French speaking person to rework it so that it makes cultural sense to people in Quebec and French.
Robert Smith: And. Taking it and just simply translating it is like putting it through a machine and getting Google translate or whatever we've done that before, and we see how all of the charm, all of the magic in that statement gets stripped right out when it comes out the other end, or it's misunderstood.
Robert Smith: So that's been and I'm sure any. Company, any desire that in the States, for example, as well, who's working internationally, the same thing. It's look we're doing the same ad in Brazil. We need to get somebody Brazilian and go in and look at this to make it right.
Robert Smith: And that's again, that's what we do. So technology changes. We know that, but how our brains work and how we problem solve. That's the constant.
Philip VanDusen: What do you think [00:18:00] are some of the best strategies today for individual, consultant, creative professionals or small agencies to become visible and to, promote themselves to differentiate and stand out from the pack and hopefully the world.
Philip VanDusen: Garner enough attention to get clients. What do you think of the best techniques? These days for that?
Robert Smith: I think it depends on where you're coming from. We've seen just like the gap between the wealthy and middle class. We have this gap now as well as reflected in the business atmosphere is large corporations and small corporations.
Robert Smith: There's a big gap. So we've got these smaller agencies, for example, that deal with local clients and and some bigger clients as well. And then you've got the large agencies and more and more potential clients that are large corporations that are seeing the smaller agencies now.
Robert Smith: Where they didn't in the past and the reason for that is there isn't six degrees of separation. They want to deal with [00:19:00] the people doing the work and AI aside given where we are right now with businesses, that's something that is interesting to large clients is being able to deal with the owners and I've discovered that my agency I had a large agency.
Robert Smith: So I know it's like trying to bring in work for a large agency feeding the monster. And purposely started sold that to my partner and purposely started my current agency to be. 10 people or below, and we've actually been more or less around five. And we've worked on some very large projects.
Robert Smith: Like again, we did we worked on Superman 75th anniversary. As a five person agency, which is unheard of in the past, but because of our attention to detail, because of our intention. That project became our gold as far as we are spending all of our time and effort. Whereas in other cases, a larger agency might be spending, it's less.
Robert Smith: And clients are realizing that. In [00:20:00] our statement, we don't hide the fact that we're small. Our statement is like espresso. We're small and strong. Or do you want a coffee? So I think it's a matter now of celebrating your uniqueness, large agency or small agency. You've got to be honest, genuine, and you lean into what you are and what you do.
Robert Smith: The days of we're everything to everybody. I think are fading. LinkedIn is a, anybody goes to LinkedIn, it is. Rife with experts, right? And so people want an expert. And I did that with my agency as well. We were a general agency doing annual reports and all this stuff. And then we got to a point where we had an expertise in food and beverage branding and packaging.
Robert Smith: So we said, you know what? That's what we're going to tell people we do. And that elevated us. It put a more and even clients that weren't going to be working with us to go. Oh, here's an issue that does that. And I've got a friend who, or I've got a buddy in a company who, you know, so when you have that, it elevates the [00:21:00] whole generalist versus specialist is a debate.
Robert Smith: I know you've got thoughts on that as well. But that's been my thought in my opinion. And even with individuals who are starting to promote themselves as freelancers, things like that, it's like a lean into who you are, don't try to hide anything, don't try to be something that you're not.
Philip VanDusen: Yeah, I in my opinion on that is, is more around skill set. And where skill sets or wider skill sets are required it's not so much really like the client breath when I had marty newmeyer actually on the show very early on in the podcast he was talking about when his agency and san Francisco started to make get traction in the software packaging and this is back when software had packaging.
Philip VanDusen: And it, he started to do some of Apple's packaging and he got his agency got very famous for doing Apple's packaging. And. I asked him so how did you does that mean that you just completely focused on [00:22:00] software packaging and he said absolutely not he said that's all that we showed on our website and that's all we talked about but if some company came to us and wanted a brand identity system or a package for a new food product or whatever we did it.
Philip VanDusen: We're not going to turn away work. We got to, as you say, feed the monster. And but what we did was we niched down in terms of what we visibly were focusing on. And I think that's the approach that I would recommend that people take. Because, you never want to, no one wants to turn away work.
Robert Smith: No. And that's what a lot of, I find my students cause the younger ones tend to follow the new the rock stars, right? The design, the sag Meisters and the Victories and that wonderful. We all need our heroes. But they get caught up in that and they're like, but look at the work. I was like, okay, let's do that.
Robert Smith: Let's look at the work. Okay. How many pieces are in this person's portfolio? Oh, there's eight. Okay. And how many years does that span? Five. Okay. So this person is not making the [00:23:00] money that they're making right now over those eight projects. It's just not, there is so much that they're doing behind the scenes, that's paying the bills.
Robert Smith: And you're right. You're absolutely correct. And Marty as well. That's the whole thing. Like we do like right now, we're doing a brand build for a non food or beverage company. For me, it's got to follow the path of, is it a challenge? Is it something that's interesting that we can really sink our teeth into and that might be a software company that might be a government department that might be.
Robert Smith: Believe it or not, we have found we have worked with the government department that was juicy. It was like we could really dig into this. And we took it on for that reason. Otherwise we're like, no, we don't need that work. But this was like, okay, here's a challenge. Here's something that's fun. And that's the interesting part. That's why we keep doing, that's the longevity of being in this industry is to constantly be challenged, constantly be learning.
Philip VanDusen: I want to pivot again and back to one of the topics that you [00:24:00] had in stop looking for zebras. And that is investing in yourself.
Philip VanDusen: And so one of the things that, we've seen post COVID is this, that now the consulting economy is on steroids, right? There had been a serious move to that. Before COVID, but when suddenly someone was, the whole world was struck by lightning and had to stay home and be on zoom, then they realized that, oh, this is what work life balance is and they didn't want to give it up.
Philip VanDusen: And so there's a lot of people who have decided to maintain their independence or foster their independence as professionals. And so in order to do that, when you're not working for the man. And they're not investing in your growth or giving you this, the sorts of challenges that help someone move up a ladder.
Philip VanDusen: How do you invest in yourself as a creative professional? What do you do and why do you do it?
Robert Smith: Again, the best investment that you can make as an individual [00:25:00] for your longevity in the industry, okay, is not learning new software. That'll come and go. What you need to do is you need to surround yourself in peers.
Robert Smith: You need to challenge yourself creatively. You need to invest in yourself in time. Sometimes people associate investing in themselves as money. And really it's more about time. And that's the biggest issue I have with freelancing. It's why are you spending your day making money for somebody else and then going home and doing the same again?
Robert Smith: Ask yourself, why are you doing that? Do you need the money or do you need the creative outlet? And for me, take that time at night or in the evenings or on the weekends to invest in yourself. And by that, build out your portfolio in areas that you may want to develop, that you want to show more of and do self directed work.
Robert Smith: Where there isn't a client but you're solving problems, you're building items in your portfolio of work that you work perpetuates. [00:26:00] So what you show you get, and that's why people like ourselves, we show and Marty show packaging or whatever, but we do other stuff, right? But what you show you get. And so when people can spend the time, instead of getting another client, that's going to be headaches and billing and all of that.
Robert Smith: Build out work, find a brand. There's a gentleman online right now that's taking famous logos and redoing them, things like that. What I like is the idea of taking on a not for profit or a charity as a client and helping them out because there's so many charities out there that deserve good design work and they just can't afford it.
Robert Smith: So there's that opportunity as well, but for me, what's made the difference for me is. Mastermind groups like bonfire. That's huge. That is huge because you're going to be in a room. Coaching is wonderful. Absolutely. You need the one on one design therapy, creative therapy sessions, but groups Are impactful because you've got a group of people, [00:27:00] different personalities, different perspectives, different work experiences that you can then brainstorm with and ideate and share.
Robert Smith: It's it's very powerful. I've had the pleasure of being in a few masterminds and out of that came clarity. As well as friendship, I'm still in contact with a lot of those people and I've been in two of your, two of your mastermind groups. Second time and first time probably went pretty well if I'm back again.
Philip VanDusen: Yeah, that's true. You were in the first guild and I invited you to join me in bonfire as a, as a participant and you are knocking it out of the park from what I hear in the one on ones and coaching that you're doing within the bonfire community. And I, One of the things I say is that when I think about the things that I wish I knew earlier in my career, the biggest one for me is how important your network is and your network is almost more important these days than even your skill set in design, because that is where [00:28:00] you're going to get your clients.
Philip VanDusen: That's where you're going to get your support. Your feedback, your confidence, that's where you're going to get who's going to get your resume on the table of the hiring manager. If that, if it comes to that, and that's why I am so power passionate about masterminds and bonfire in particular, because it gives you that.
Philip VanDusen: Almost instant network i mean once you join it you're walking into a mastermind group of twenty or forty people and so you instantly have this network and then you build those relationships and that understanding and get to know people over time but the beauty of that. And this kind of circles back to, stop looking for zebras and what we were talking about in terms of confidence is that when you work alone or in very small groups of people, it's very difficult, like you said, to get any kind of perspective on yourself, just like “the cobblers children have no shoes”, right? We can never revise our own websites. We have real hard time doing [00:29:00] our own brand identities. We can't no perspective on the stuff that we produce for ourselves. And so if you can surround yourself with people that you trust, who are, accomplished in your industry, who can give you that perspective.
Philip VanDusen: That's one of those things that really helps you check your own opinions, and give you that little bit of. Of validation in how you're thinking about something that can lead to action rather than, as you said, this kind of paralysis and procrastination, because you don't really know where to take it.
Robert Smith: We had a great example in the bonfire a little while ago where one of the members was looking at getting into post secondary teaching in design and that four of us put our hands up cause we've done it. So automatically he had. Four people say, okay, I can do a one on one with you guys.
Robert Smith: I can bring it up and really got it. And now he got a position which is awesome. Yeah. And three
Philip VanDusen: months of being in bonfire. He's he, a, he got the idea that he wanted to teach. In bonfire, and then he got [00:30:00] all of this, all these people who had taught before giving him feedback and advice about how to approach it.
Philip VanDusen: He did it and he got hired like within three months and he's got like a university level teaching gig. It was like one of those beautiful success stories that I just love inside of bonfire. Absolutely.
Robert Smith: And I think our role is to really demystify a lot of the assumptions. Teaching at university, oh my God, and you start building up all of these misconceptions or preconceived ideas.
Robert Smith: And we were able to dismiss most of them and say, no, this is what it's really and here's how, over my 20 years, the most successful things that I've done revolved around this, or, here's the best way to engage with an audience that is, 20 years, you're a junior, you're a freshman.
Robert Smith: Those sorts of things. So we were able to really demystify a lot of this. His self confidence, and that's what it came down to, self confidence. So he showed up I've got this. So what have you gotten out of being in Bonfire? Again, we all look at, we always look at our next step.
Robert Smith: What is our next move? And so [00:31:00] for some people that might be going from freelance to working full time or, Working in a full time company, I'm going to start my own company. So we look at these next steps. And for me, it's been leveraging all of my years of experience into a space of education coaching and mentoring because this industry is so dear to me that I want to see people thrive.
Robert Smith: It, it bothers me so deeply when I see people beaten up and just Oh, I just show up and I just do my work. And this isn't accounting. This isn't, it's not, you're not building cars in a factory or anything. This is creative. So if you are struggling along in that you've got to take a look at that because this is honestly, in my opinion, a privileged.
Robert Smith: Industry, this is a privileged job to do. You are communicating to people. You are informing people. You have the opportunity to change people's decisions and directions in what we do. And so for me I want to be in a position where I can. Take all of my experience [00:32:00] and put it forward in the form of a book, which I've done now, which was a proof of concept.
Robert Smith: Is there an audience for this? Is this relevant? And then now, okay now I'm going to do some courses. Now I'm going to do some appearances and just keep building on
Philip VanDusen: that. I'm going to stop you for a second. Because you had been teaching for a long time, you had your agency going, then you put out a book.
Philip VanDusen: Then you've got another one and which is even more ambitious book. You did that one. Now you've, you're starting to do courses and webinars like, and this is mid to late career, right? You're, you have had an accomplished career. What got into you that you said. I am going to start broadening my scope of what is possible for me.
Philip VanDusen: How did that come about for you?
Robert Smith: Okay. There's two answers to that. The first answer is while I love, absolutely. I love what I do. I've spent my 30 years building value for other people and it's time to take that and build value for myself. And to [00:33:00] extend my, even the teaching, I was teaching for a college or university.
Robert Smith: Okay. And so I got to a point just like when I was working for an agency and decided I'm going to start my own, then I can run it the way I want, I can hire who I want and bring in the clients I want. This is much the same. So instead of teaching at a college level, which I'll probably continue to do in little bits, but in doing these courses and that they're on my own terms, they're based on what I see out there as a practicing professional that I feel designers need to know more of.
Robert Smith: And I'll be honest. Every year I teach every year, I get the same question at the end of the semester. Why don't we take more psychology? Because that's what I dive into with them. It's like, why do people make the choices? It's not how to make the box. It's why does that box impactful? And that's what I teach them.
Robert Smith: That's why we don't touch computers. And at the end, every year, they're like, why don't we study more psychology? And I was like exactly. And so I'm able to with my own courses. Now I can [00:34:00] infuse the things that I think are necessary that are missing. And the other answer is back in high school when I was graduating.
Robert Smith: I'll be honest with everybody. I graduated like a 50 something average, right? I was basically. Pushed out the door and because I was in the system and I don't think it's changed much where it awarded people who are good at math, people who are good at science, people who are good at Shakespearean writing.
Robert Smith: And I just didn't fit in any of that mold. So I had a guidance counselor take me into his office. He'd seen the work that I'd been doing on the, in the art field. And he said, you should be a graphic designer. And I said, fantastic. What's graphic design? I had no idea. Okay. And this is a 17, 18 year old.
Robert Smith: No idea. And he got a book out. I remember this to this day and he started flipping through the pages and I just, my jaw dropped and I looked at him, I said, this is a job. He said, yes, you get paid to do this. You said yes. I'll sign me up. I'm in [00:35:00] right. And so he helped me fill out my forms. I went to college studied for 3 years and the very 1st year I was an A plus student president of the student body.
Robert Smith: I had won awards in class for my work that had never happened to me in my entire life. So that's why to this day, this is. In my DNA, this was my savior going out of and I thank my guidance counselor for that. For me, I want to be that beacon now moving forward, because there's so many people out there who are just because of for their own reasons, or their surroundings are being pushed down or not realizing their full potential.
Robert Smith: And I want to be there to say, no, this is, you're going to do this. You're going to kill it.
Philip VanDusen: Yeah, what you were talking about right there was, one of those pivotal moments in your career where you undergo a transformation, right? You went under this underwent this transformation from being an eh student, with no direction to having this epiphany where you [00:36:00] were re energized and you had a fire lit under you.
Philip VanDusen: And there are a lot, like in Bonfire, where we focus mainly on our. Members who are mid to late career or established creative professionals, people who are, at least five or eight years out of there at a school and a lot of them are coming to, they're either, they've either settled into a groove and have gotten bored or they've met some sort of a ceiling in what they're doing or a ceiling in the energy of the, what they're doing, or maybe even their earning potential.
Philip VanDusen: Or they've hit some sort of barrier like a layoff or, an acquisition of the company they were working for, which has thrown a wrench into the works. And so there are boredom transformations, and then there are like forced transformations. And so I'd love to hear your perspective on how a mid career creative professional can recognize when, if they're laid off, yeah, of course, they're going to recognize it.
Philip VanDusen: But [00:37:00] how does a mid career person recognize that they're ready to be re energized or to
Robert Smith: reboot? So in, in the book I tackled this in a couple of cases one, there's a chapter called, and actually I just put on my Instagram career goals and bear traps. And the idea of the bear trap is in a lot of cases, financial, right?
Robert Smith: Like I'm making this much money. I hate going in though. It's sucking up my creativity, but I don't want to rock the boat. So I'm going to take freelance at night to keep creative. And now I'm not spending enough time with my kids. And, it's a vicious circle. And I equate I come at it a couple of different ways for different people, but one of the stories I use is the idea of the frog in the pot where, and it's a theory.
Robert Smith: It's not scientifically correct. But if you've got a pot of water that's lukewarm sorry that's boiling, you put a frog in it, it'll jump out danger, but if it's lukewarm and you put it in, it'll swim around. And if you slowly turn up the heat, yeah. Once it realizes that it's boiling, it's too late.
Robert Smith: And that's where a lot of these [00:38:00] jobs in the creative industry for some people in house, some people working at an agency or whatever, it'll be like that. Like you go in and everything's fine, but then the heat starts to turn up. You're spending more hours. You haven't gotten a raise in a couple of years.
Robert Smith: You're, these things start boiling up. And when it gets to the boiling point, at that point, it is you've become. Comfortable with a certain lifestyle, and now you're hooked on that lifestyle and need to maintain that financially. So you're stuck, whereas, and that's what a lot of people do is they match the job to their lifestyle.
Robert Smith: And to me, it's the opposite, right? You should match your lifestyle to the job because you spend so much time at your job that you want to be fulfilled and you want to be happy. It just comes down to that. Do you want the big car and the big house and all that wonderful stuff, then you've got to have the job to support that.
Robert Smith: Or do you have this wonderful job that, Hey, it's okay if I drive a Mazda, they're cool. Which they are by the way, so it's so I use that term. And then the other is the five stages of [00:39:00] grief. So when somebody passes away we're familiar with the five stages of grief.
Robert Smith: And what I've done in the book has talked about the five stages of career grief. That we go through and if you're in a relationship your partner will remind you of these. You are changing, right? You're a lot snappier at night. You're just, you're not happy anymore. So you've got to take these moments to recognize, but it is up to you, but the five stages that we've got denial.
Robert Smith: So no, that's fine. I got this job. I'm employed. Everybody around me is losing their job. And then there's anger. You start to feel resentment because you're spending more hours than you used to because the jobs aren't as creative as they were. Because. So you get angry. And then there's negotiation and resolution. All right, I've got to do something about this. So you talk to your boss or superiors and you go through that process. And really, it should end there. But people get to the next, they do that and then nothing happens. So then they get to depression, right?
Robert Smith: Because they've done all the things that got angry. They saw their boss. [00:40:00] Now they're depressed because it's out of their control. I've got this lifestyle. I've got to maintain, I got to bring home money. I've talked to my boss. He's not going to make, he or she's not going to make my job any better. So now I'm depressed.
Robert Smith: And then the final is acceptance and that's horrible. So stages four and five, you need to go back to the beginning and start all over again. And that's what it just comes down to is be aware you've got to stop and be aware. You've got to be aware of your situation, listen to the people around you and let those things guide you.
Philip VanDusen: Well, Robert, it has been a joy talking to you today on the podcast. I really appreciate your coming on the show. Robert Smith, author of Stop Looking for Zebras, agency owner of Green Melon, Registered graphic designer in Canada. Thanks again for being on the show.
Robert Smith: Thank you, Philip.
Philip VanDusen: If you'd like to help support the Brand Design Masters podcast, please rate and review us on iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, if you want to stay up to date on all our content, [00:41:00] products, courses, and live video shows, head over to philipvandusen. com slash Muse and sign up for the Brand Muse newsletter.
Philip VanDusen: That's where we share all the latest news, resources, articles, books, and videos that we recommend to help you build and improve your creative practice, personal brand, and business. That's philipvandusen. com slash Muse, M U S E. Thanks again for listening. Bye for now.