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A podcast that holds horror to standards horror never agreed to. Hosts Jeremy Whitley, Ben Kahn, Emily Martin and guests watch, read, listen to, and check out movies, tv shows, comics, books, art and anything else from the horror genre and discuss it through a progressive lens. We'll talk feminism in horror, LGBTQ+ issues and representation in horror, racial and social justice in horror, disability and mental health/illness in horror, and the work of female and POC directors, writers, and creators in horror.
We're the podcast horror never agreed to take part in.
Jeremy: Are you gonna do an intro, Alicia?
Alicia: I was gonna wait for you to do it.
I wasn't gonna steal it from you
Jeremy: No.
It's all you today.
Go for it.
Alicia: Good evening and welcome to
Progressively Horrified the podcast
where something does something and
something else does something else.
I'm your host Alicia Whitley, and I
totally stole this intro from Jeremy.
Didn't write it down and so completely
forgot what I'm supposed to say.
Ben: Well I liked it.
Zuri: When we hold horror progressive
standards, it never agreed to.
Alicia: Thank you.
Jeremy: No, my daughter has my back.
My wife doesn't know what the intro
to the podcast is, despite editing it.
But my daughter Zuri
knows what the intro is.
Alicia: Sorry.
Did you just read that off of something?
Zuri: No, you've made
me listen to it enough.
Ben: I do love that you're all
each paired up with the one
that looks the most like you.
So it just looks like
rookie and champion form.
Dig eman.
Amara: We didn't know this.
Alicia: We didn't?
Amara: No.
Well.
At least I didn't.
Alicia: All right.
So tonight we are going to be
talking about Dead end Paranormal
Park, the Netflix children Show.
And in order to help us talk
about that, we've got some real
live children on the podcast.
So,
Jeremy: child correspondence?
Alicia: special child correspondence.
So I guess you usually start Jeremy
by introducing each of the hosts and
then introducing the special guests.
Right.
Jeremy: Usually.
Yes.
Alicia: All right.
So first up your host and my B f F for
life writer and creator, Jeremy Whitley.
Jeremy,
Jeremy: it's me.
I didn't also prepare a thing to
introduce myself, so here we are.
Yay.
Also, I don't know if, Alicia,
did you introduce yourself?
Alicia: I did not, I just said
I was stealing the show, so
Jeremy: Uh, Let me introduce uh,
your host for tonight and my wife
and educator, Alicia Whitley.
Not my educator, just my wife.
Everybody's educator.
Alicia: Mm-hmm.
Also, on the podcast tonight,
we have co-hosts, Ben and
Emily how y'all doing tonight?
Ben: Good.
We're kicking off TV month with dead
end and the whole Whitley family.
Emily: Indeed, indeed.
The uh, creators of this show and of
some of our co-hosts as well Jeremy
and Alicia, it is lovely to be here.
And also Zuri and MariJo, how are you
Alicia: No, you gotta say it
because people will be, will see it.
So you have to
Jeremy: Zuri is wave.
Apparently
Emily: yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know this is an audio medium.
Zuri: She said, how are you?
Oh, I'm
Ben: what?
That's a mood.
I also feel wave
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
Zuri: All I heard was my name.
Ben: the vibes are physically present.
Mentally and spiritually.
That's not a reflection on
this Very good show, though.
That's just a reflection
on my mess of a life.
Alicia: All right.
So let's dive in.
So the girls are going to join us for
a little bit of the podcast tonight.
We wanted to hear from real life
kids opinions about this kid's show.
So, Zuri, let's start with you.
uh, What brings you to tonight's episode?
Zuri: my mother.
That's who brought me.
Emily: just your mother.
Ben: I also feel like a certain
other parent's getting off easy here.
Zuri: I really enjoyed the show.
I thought it was interesting.
It has a lot of humor bits, but it also
has a lot of real life concepts mixed
in somehow making it like perfect.
Alicia: I agree.
I think it's a pretty perfect show.
Amara, can you tell us what Dead
end fair, normal park is about?
Amara: Fair stuff.
Ghosts, monsters,
basically just evil stuff.
Alicia: Absolutely.
Can you-
Amara: Evil stuff that's
actually nice and talking stuff.
Jeremy: So the main characters
are a ghost and a monster
Alicia: No.
So who are the main characters?
Amara: Barney?
Mm-hmm.
Ugly.
Who's a dog?
A talking dog.
A magic dog.
A normal dog.
Emily: Very good.
Amara: The Norma, who is not
very normal there go very good.
And she's very grown up.
Alicia: Yes.
Is there anything before you
go that you wanna say that you
like or dislike about this show?
Amara: I, I don't like that it's a
kids show and they put actual scary
parts, but I do like how the, the scary
parts that aren't supposed to be scary
are funny instead of just not scary.
Yeah.
And one of them was really sad, like
one of the parts, because in the first
episode it's like, well, I'm not sure.
You don't remember.
So I do remember.
I just don't wanna say it.
Oh, okay.
Is it too sad?
So I don't know how to explain it.
Oh, you
Jeremy: Why didn't you just say it?
Alicia: Actually, I
don't know how to say it.
Okay.
I dunno how to describe it.
Okay.
Who is your favorite character?
Hmm.
Zuri: My favorite character is Courtney.
Alicia: You don't have to
lean into the microphone.
N b A player style.
Amara: Well now you have
to pick someone else.
Jeremy: I'm only on this podcast
because I'm required to be,
Alicia: That's exactly
Zoe's attitude right now.
Go ahead.
You can pick Courtney.
Okay, good.
Ben: Sarah is only here
so she doesn't get fined.
Alicia: Yeah,
Ben: She's Marsha.
She's, giving us the full
Marsha on Lynch tonight.
Amara: I picked Courtney
because she's kid-like.
Alicia: Oh, Hmm.
I can see that.
Yeah.
All right, so I did have two more
Jeremy: hold on.
I wanna know what Zuri
likes about Courtney.
Alicia: Oh, yeah.
Zuri: I think Courtney is a fun
character for comedy relief, but
they also give her her own storyline.
Amara: And her own song for some reason.
Hmm.
She has a song.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, I don't
Zuri: has a verse in a song.
Alicia: Oh, nice, nice.
Amara: It's like the last episode.
Because she gets her own song when
like Pugsley puts a curse on everybody.
Mm.
I remember.
I remember.
And then it's like, it goes so
far all the way over to the house.
Alicia: Nice.
All right.
The last question that I wanted to
ask you all before you jump off is
do any, do any of these episodes.
Feature things that you're,
that actually make you scared,
that are actually scary to you?
Yes.
Okay.
Amara: The first episode where,
where she's in the mirrors.
That one's pretty scared.
Oh.
But you wanna know the funniest part.
I think about the first episode.
Mm-hmm.
The part where she's screaming
and the microphone comes too
close, so she has to like push up.
So it's got scary stuff and funny stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That, that is pretty funny.
Zuri: I'm not nearly as scared of
mirrors as Amara seems to be, but in the
Alicia: Well, wait, wait, wait, wait.
It's not the mirror she's afraid of.
It's the person like in the
Jeremy: the ghost in the mirrors.
Alicia: Yeah.
Zuri: Okay.
Well, either way, in episode three
with harmony Norma's fear was of
being judged and I, as a middle
schooler can relate to that.
And also Pugsley sphere was vacuums,
and that's very valid as well.
Alicia: You're afraid of vacuums?
No, pugsley spears, vacuums.
'cause he is a dog.
Yeah.
But zuri, are you afraid of vacuums?
Zuri: not always, but sometimes
Jeremy: just afraid of chores, huh?
Amara: She is of torture.
Alicia: Uri.
Are you afraid of being tortured
Zuri: Yes.
Amara: like Courtney?
Ben: I mean, that's a great fear.
It's a very valid
Zuri: I
Ben: fear.
Zuri: mean, Yeah.
Amara: Courtney's basically being tortured
Jeremy: Yeah.
Nothing to fear, but torture.
Ben: That is not a fear you
need to face or overcome.
Just, just keep on
avoiding being tortured.
Alicia: Okay, Ben, Emily, did any of
these episodes hit on any of your fears?
Emily: Yeah.
Well, there's, yes.
thought of losing Pugsley yeah, the.
Ben: Yeah.
Emily: Yeah,
Ben: Jeremy, Alicia, you, you know, I
don't, I don't do well with animal death.
Emily: yeah.
That was very upsetting.
And also the, the, the episode
with harmony harm many where there
was that fear of being judged.
And I, there's a really good point Zuri
because it's not, I mean, Dorma is a
fear of being judged, but so does Barney,
but in it's kind of a different way.
Um,
Ben: this isn't a, a different way
pertaining to work-life balances
and the terror that is corporate
culture, but being forced to
socialize outside the office,
Zuri: Mm-hmm.
Well, one is like being accepted by
your family and judged by the people
that are close to you and others is
just strangers in general judging you.
Ben: I just wanna know, are they
getting paid for that beach day?
Alicia: I wanna know
Ben: should be on the clock.
Those should be billable hours.
Alicia: is paying them?
Emily: Yeah.
That's a good question.
Ben: question.
Emily: Who arranged harm many
to come and harm them?
Amara: Well, I wanna know who's
paying them because like the
owner of Phoenix Park is dead.
So who is paying them?
Because she's not paying them because
she's, because she's ghost and dead and
she doesn't have any money apparently.
Alicia: And then Courtney
is the one who hired them,
Emily: Yeah.
Alicia: but
Jeremy: Courtney is a literal demon, which
Ben: Yeah.
Which they other characters just
assume is like a red, a horned person.
Alicia: Yeah.
Well you know what Pauline
Phoenix always says if you
see something paranormal.
Ben: Like yet
Jeremy: it to yourself, sweetheart.
Ben: of a reaction
Alicia: Yep.
Ben: to anything going on,
which I love this show.
This is a very enjoyable show.
But I guess if you drill it down to
as hard as we do in here, and maybe
it all gets mixed, like I know there's
Lord and mythologies and mysteries.
But that there is that little bit of
like, wait, how is this all working?
Emily: Yeah,
Ben: just like being on, just like, you
know, it takes you out of it a little bit.
Zuri: You shouldn't
think about it too much.
Ben: Yeah.
Emily: Yeah.
Absolutely.
Well, I, I feel like
Jeremy: it wouldn't be the,
Courtney wouldn't be the worst
demon I've worked for, so.
Emily: right?
Yeah.
Like, you know, some payroll somewhere,
especially amusement park payroll,
I'm sure is all tied up with the,
the powers of demons and demon kind.
So, whether it be automated or just some
Ben: I mean,
Emily: underworld horror, managing
everybody's bank account which I
think isn't very far from reality.
Ben: other things that scared me
in these episodes I am very scared
for Barney's Health subsisting off
an entire amusement park food diet
Alicia: yeah,
Emily: yeah.
Alicia: That's pretty
Ben: that breakfast popcorn did not like.
I am concerned,
Emily: I think he learns
to cook eventually.
I mean, there's a lot of things that we
don't see, but I think that, you know, he,
Ben: I'm worried about there being
an open flame in that haunted house.
There's no way there's a
working sprinkler system.
Amara: I think it's kind of weird how
after he used the fountain as a bath.
Oh, a bath just showed up.
Yeah.
That was weird.
Emily: yeah,
Zuri: don't worry
about Barney's life.
It's from Norma's perspective,
Alicia: Hmm.
Zuri: we don't, care about Barney.
Alicia: What
Emily: I care about Barney.
Alicia: care about,
Zuri: We should care about
Barney, but I don't know
Jeremy: if we do.
Ben: He's
Amara: oh, you wanna know
the funniest episode to me?
Hmm.
The one where Pugsley just makes like a
lot about himself and then it's like a
bunch of Pugsley just Oh, the one where
he, where Pugsley is like, Barney, Barney.
Barney Barney, yeah.
All over the place.
Yeah.
That's pretty good.
All right.
Ladies, Zuri Amara.
If, let's say somebody likes Dead
End Paranormal Park as a certified
kid, what else would you recommend
them reading, watching, playing,
if they are fans of this show?
What,
Jeremy: If people like this,
what else should they watch?
Alicia: or read Amara.
You said something very interesting
when I asked you this earlier.
What do you think people should
read if they like this show?
Amara: So, there's, this show was
based off of a book, so I think
maybe they should try buying that,
but I haven't really read it myself.
I just know it's based off
the, the book, so, yeah.
Yeah, I agree.
I bet it's a like it
because I, it, I think so.
Hold on, mom.
Yeah.
So you read something in your journal
and I wanna show them what- Well,
can Zuri answer the question first
before you go showing my journal?
Sure.
One minute.
Zuri: Um, my suggestions are probably
more for my age and up, or like
a mature younger kid, so probably
parental supervision, but I was
thinking a series of unfortunate events.
Has that the funny and
scary and ironic bit?
Alicia: The books or the TV show?
Both.
Zuri: I haven't read the books,
but I think the TV show on Netflix
reminds me a lot of dead end.
Alicia: Yeah, absolutely.
I was gonna say Hilda, but we
Zuri: Well, it's not exactly scary.
Alicia: the trolls.
Actually the trolls are just
really cute, but that's exactly
what it turns out about.
Courtney.
She's a demon who's actually just cute.
Anyway, Amara wanted to show
you my sketches that I did.
Emily: Love them.
I love them.
I also, I sketched Courtney while I was
Zuri: drew a puppy.
Emily: well.
Oh good.
What kind of puppy?
What
Alicia: So every, everybody's sketches.
Aww.
Emily: Oh,
Alicia: That's cute.
All right, ladies.
Goodnight.
I love you night.
Love you.
Zuri: Goodnight.
Emily: thank you for joining us.
Jeremy: Love you.
Emily: So sweet.
Jeremy: Yes.
Alicia: All right.
So they are headed off upstairs.
Night, night baby.
And I did Barney Night, night, Barney,
Imar didn't mention it, but that was
one of her favorite parts is like,
at the end of the first episode where
tells Pugsley goodnight and Pugsley
just goes Night, night, Barney.
so tonight we are talking about Dead End
Paranormal Park, the 2022 series uh, that
has two seasons currently on Netflix.
It is created by Hamish Steele, I mean,
it's got a wonderful cast in this show.
We've got Zach.
Barack, Cody Kavita, Emily
Osmond, Alex Brightman and Miss
Coco, Peru as Pauline Phoenix.
So each episode is about
26 to 27 minutes long.
It is for ages seven plus.
But it is kid horror, I would say.
So I thought that it would be perfect to
talk about in August when we're thinking
about getting ready to go back to school
and like, what can we watch on tv, what
are some small bites that we can have.
So I figured what I'd do is kind of
give a short recap of each episode
and then give us some time to talk
about the episodes and then recap
and then debrief instead of doing all
three episodes all the way across.
I'm gonna try to not give
too many future spoilers.
But first let me ask like, have you
watched the, did you watch the rest of the
series or did you stop at three episodes?
Ben: I was able to watch the first five
episodes in time for this podcast tonight.
Emily: I was able to finish season one.
So I'd actually watched up
to episode nine, which I
think is the musical episode.
Alicia: Okay.
Emily: then I re-watched it because
I, I tried to keep my, get myself back
on track with the, with the Meta Poot.
And then I also re-watched the
first three episodes just to
kind of get myself reacquainted.
'cause I watched it back I think it was
earlier this year when I watched it first.
So I have no idea what happens
in season two, but I, I do know
what happens at the end of season
one, which was pretty interesting.
But I won't spoil anything at this point.
Ben: So really Emily did a much better
job preparing this week than I did.
It still is the message.
Emily: I had seen more of this show
initially, like I'd seen, watched it
extracurricularly I can't remember
who brought it to me, but it was
one of my younger friends who was
uh, tangentially associated with
my class and, and artist community.
So, I will say that I.
Barney, the character looks like
and, has a similar life circumstance
as a bunch of my students.
So it was
Ben: see, I see multiple
Barneys, every flame con,
not intentional, cosplays just,
Emily: Yeah,
Ben: yeah,
Alicia: Unintentional cosplay,
Ben: Yeah.
Cosplay in spirit.
Emily: Whoever designed the
Barney character really, really
knew who they were discussing.
Alicia: Jeremy.
Jeremy: Yeah, I, I agree.
Um, I have seen all of both seasons
uh, with you and, and the girls.
I forgot going back to these first three
episodes, how much stuff they say and lay
out in those first couple episodes because
there's, you know, there's a lot of stuff
that'll be picked up on later, but like,
we get a lot of information about both,
you know, both Barney and Norma Courtney.
I think they deal with a lot
more in the second season.
But uh, yeah, we get a lot of stuff
about both of them right off the bat.
I mean, I think the first episode is a
little more Barney's episode and the third
episode is a little more Norma's and then
Pugsley gets a lot of the second episode.
Ben: Yeah.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: but yeah, it was,
it was interesting to me.
There's there's so much stuff that
they sort of say off the bat it gets
followed up on in those episodes and
a couple of places where I was like,
Hey is this a metaphor for this?
No, that's reductive.
Oh no, the show just said
it's a metaphor for this.
Got it.
Ben: I mean, this is a show that
uses a talking dog as a metaphor
for being trans, and it works.
It
works.
Emily: Yeah, I, that was the one thing I
really, really wanted to talk about and
discuss with y'all is the acceptance of
your dog's ability to talk, being some
sort of allegory to the acceptance of or,
or your family's acceptance of transition.
Jeremy: You wanna hold
Off on that until the second
episode, since that's what basically
Alicia: That is, yeah, that's
Emily: yeah, that
is the, that's, yeah,
that's the second episode.
But the first episode um, does
start with Barney, like the first
character, other than the horror
scene that kind of sets the tone.
Ben: Starts with Barney using
enough hairspray to put a new
hone like hole in the ozone layer.
Alicia: yes.
Yeah, I absolutely wanted
to talk about that.
All right, so let's dive in.
So episode one starts off with
a legitimate horror house.
We start off with a woman running into
this haunted looking house, and she's
like, ah, ah, and she does the whole
horror thing that everyone does where
they run upstairs in a house and then
they fall on the stairs and then they
like keep running and she gets to like
this hall of mirrors and she's like, oh,
let me just fix my little blonde wig.
I look nice.
And then a horrible, like, figure like
shows up and the lights flash off.
And that's how we start the show.
And as Amara said, like that is the
part that legitimately frightens
her, like, scary thing in mirrors,
which I get, I that would, that
would get, it's, it's pretty.
It's pretty creepy.
So then we cut to Barney Guttman,
who is our main protagonist.
Now I couldn't tell if Barney was spraying
his hair blue, like using um, hairspray
dye or just spraying his hair so that
it would hold its cool upward shape.
But either way, Barney
is spraying his hair.
Barney is Jewish and
trans and loves his dog.
Pugsley.
These are the things that we find
out by the end of the first episode.
And he also loves dinosaurs and wrestling.
Ben: Who doesn't love dinosaurs?
Emily: Very relatable.
Ben: also I, I hope it's hairspray
because otherwise that is just like
Alicia: That's a lot of blue dye
Emily: Relatable.
Yeah.
Ben: Like that is just like hollow, like,
there's no legit spray dye like that.
Is that fucking Halloween hair dye?
Alicia: Yeah.
We have some that like I would use
to spray my hair blue and green
for game days at school, you know?
Yeah.
Nothing that stays like it.
The red will look cool, but
it gets on everything else.
And then your move, your bathroom
looks like a horror movie.
Ben: yeah.
So for the sake of like the laundry
machine, I hope it's just hairspray.
Emily: Same.
Same.
Although there's a lot of hair.
I mean like he seems to go
through that like once a day.
Ben: about it.
Like, Barney, did you
pack, you're running away.
Did you pack it, change your clothes?
Are you, you eat your food, your
Alicia: Do you have enough hairspray?
Ben: Barney did you, you did
not plan this like running away.
Do you have a
Alicia: not.
Barney does not plan this running away.
Well, so, we also open on
the song is from Caveman.
And I cannot remember the name of the song
right now, but is it Caveman or Cave Town?
Oh man,
Jeremy: you had a bunch of
uh, cave town tabs open in
Alicia: that's it.
So the song that is playing is from Cave
Town and Cave Town is also a trans artist.
So they picked a music by a trans
artist, um, to put into the show.
So I think that's like another
little hint about Barney's identity.
There is a human wanted for job flyer that
is on the wall that is signed by Courtney.
And I love the aesthetics of this
human wanted for job because it
totally looks like Courtney got
into like, word perfect or like, Ms.
Paint like was doing like word art that
basically starts with hello fellow humans.
And like one of the images on it is like a
business image and it even has a watermark
on it because clearly Courtney has just
stolen it from the internet somewhere.
Uh, To put up this flyer
Ben: I wanna know what Kinkos Courtney
is going to to get these printed.
Emily: Like there's a whole lot
of stuff provided at this park.
I mean, the park has concession stands
and souvenir shops and things like that.
Like, I don't know if someone's
made the survival reality show of
like, can you live on everything
that's available at Disneyland?
Terrifying, but
Alicia: I watch it.
Emily: possible.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Ben: entire societies are
underneath Disneyland.
Alicia: Yeah.
Emily: yeah,
Alicia: Pauline's theme park
is basically Dollywood, right?
It's like a Dollywood parody.
You know, Pauline is
this book some blonde.
Ben: It's like if Dolly
Parton was also Elvira.
Alicia: Exactly.
Emily: Yes.
Alicia: She has movies and music and
television shows, and it's got, I
think, five um, zones that are all based
on different aspects of her career.
And the other thing I love about
Pauline Phoenix is the fact that
she's got this really country accent,
except for occasionally when it
slips and she says things like You
all and sit right next to Darling.
And it's like, oh my, like Pauline,
everything about Pauline is like,
Emily: The whole Atlantic coastline?
Her.
Alicia: She's like, Moira Rose.
Just like this indistinguishable
accent that you could tell Izzy put on.
But what is it?
What?
What did she put on?
We don't know.
Emily: Not
Jeremy: I, I had about Pauline throughout
is, is Pauline supposed to be a drag
queen or is she just supposed to be the
sort of real woman that drag queens like
to base their, their personas off of?
Because she is giving heavy
drag queen vibes and she is.
She is voiced by a drag queen.
And I, I, I could never figure
out which it was supposed to be.
Alicia: But is the character a drag queen?
Is that what you're asking?
Yeah.
I wondered that as well.
But what I think later.
At, at another episode we learned
that Pauline's been working in like
television since she was a baby.
She looked the exact same as
a baby, so I think that's like
Emily: Yeah.
I think especially considering
where they, the directions that
they go with the character.
You know, I don't, I don't mind
having a, a drag queen character
that is as over the top as she is.
But I do, I think, Honestly, I think
she's, what the la the latter of
what Jeremy said is she is the kind
of character, like a fare caricature
woman who is like, say, I should
say actress a caricature actress
that a lot of drag queens emulate
because of the size of her hair.
But, I mean, I did think like, at, at the
beginning.
Ben: in a far side cartoon.
That hair,
Emily: Yeah, yeah.
Or like in Mars attacks or
Ben: with the kids making far side jokes.
Emily: Yeah.
Kids love Farside.
The the, at, at first I was really
hopeful that she was a drag queen
because of those, those vibes.
But her character is a lot more Hollywood.
Not to say that drag queens aren't,
but they are in a different way.
Um, she's, she's a lot more
old school Hollywood than,
Ben: I got a very classic gay icon
Emily: yeah, yeah,
Ben: from her, you know, in
Alicia: So you think she's just
Ben: of her screaming,
Emily: yeah.
Or uh,
Ben: Shannon.
I would, but you know, just in
that kind of like Liza Minelli way,
Alicia: Yeah.
Emily: yeah.
Yeah.
Alicia: So Barney is getting ready
for this job interview and nearby
, Norma Khan is also in a room in her
bedroom, is full of Pauline Phoenix
memorabilia as well as that same flyer.
So Barney's Room has like
dinosaur poster wrestling poster.
Norma's room is just head
to toe, Pauline Phoenix.
Like this is her obsession.
Ben: does
Name count as something scary?
If it brings up memories of
being snapped at and told, why
can't you just be a normal con?
Emily: Uh hmm.
Ben: Or is that a little
too specific to me?
Emily: I think we can get specific,
if you're cool with getting specific,
Alicia: A normal con.
You're a great con.
Emily: You're an ideal con.
Alicia: Yeah, you're an, you're an icon.
Emily: That's so good.
Ben: I love it.
Emily: That's really good.
I'm mad that I didn't think of that.
Alicia: Okay, so Barney identifies
his fear of confrontation.
Like, when talking to his mother about
like, what is my biggest, personality
flaw as he's preparing for this interview.
And then immediately turns around and
lets his mom know that he won't be
confronting Grammy Graham who's coming
over for cheese list, mac and cheese.
Because Grammy Graham is
not ready to accept Barney.
And that's kind of the first hint
that we get that Barney is trans.
Ben: I I kind of feel like even beyond
that cheese list, mac and cheese is a
valid enough reason to run away from home.
Alicia: He, he wanted the
cheese, mac and cheese.
His mom said it's his favorite.
Emily: is Barney vegan?
Like is
Ben: Yeah.
is Bar vegan
Alicia: was wondering that too.
I was like, wait, is Barney vegan?
And like later he has a nightmare
about having to eat brisket.
So I was laying maybe, but I don't know.
Emily: which makes uh, living
at that theme park even that's
just another layer of intensity.
Ben: is Popcorn Vegan?
Alicia: I mean, yes, until you had butter.
Emily: yeah.
Yeah.
You can make popcorn with olive oil.
Alicia: Yeah, you can make, I've made
popcorn with sunflower oil and uh,
Ben: is chicken par vegan?
Alicia: and everybody says that like,
nutritional and yeast tastes cheesy.
That's a lie that vegans tell.
Okay.
It doesn't, they just haven't eaten cheese
in a while because I was like, okay, let
me buy this big bucket of nutritional
yeast and sprinkle it on my popcorn.
And I was not happy with the result
anyway.
Emily: Have
you
Jeremy: a moment for
about Norma's mom, Swathi?
Alicia: Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Because while Barney's mom is
like, passively supportive, like,
oh, you're going out for that
job, it'll probably be fine.
Oh, you know, Grammy Graham isn't
ready to accept your new identity.
You know, she's kind of reticent.
Norma's mom is like
Jeremy: the most supportive?
Alicia: the
Ben: So supportive,
Alicia: too supportive.
Ben: Norma's Mom is here to
like chew bubble gum and be
supportive and she's all outta gum.
Emily: Right.
Jeremy: Yeah.
It, it was interesting to me when Alicia
and I were watching this, I was talking
about what sort of like a reversal of the
stereotype of the South Asian mom she is.
'cause you know, she's, she's
fine with her kid living with her.
That's not the problem.
She just wants her to go out there and
make friends and, you know, be social.
Ben: I'm glad I watched far enough to
get to the Christmas in July to establish
that this takes place during the summer.
'cause I also had the thought of, wait,
did Barney just dropped outta school?
Is Barney now just a straight up.
Teenage runaway who dropped out of school.
Alicia: So I believe that in the
books Barney is 20 and I think
that Canonically, he's supposed
to be 17 when the show starts.
Jeremy: Yeah, they aged
them down for the show.
'
Ben: cause I was getting
real, like 16 vibes from
the
Alicia: was too.
so skipping ahead a little bit we were
introduced to Norma's paralyzing fear of
people when Barney and her both get on
the same bus and she becomes convinced
that, oh, I forgot, Barney leaves out
of the house and Pugsley comes with
him and like makes very sad face until
Barney agrees to take Pley with him.
Ben: Aw.
Alicia: So, yeah, so Barney and Pugsley
are on the bus to go to this interview
and Norma's like, oh, I'm sitting next to
this weird guy who's talking to himself.
And Barney says, you're the
only one talking to yourself.
Norma.
And Norma flips out and goes,
how did you know my name?
And Barney was like, ah,
we were lab partners.
I was, we've gone to school together.
You've lived down the street.
And she's like, I'm bad
with names and faces.
And I think that is one of the reasons
why Barney feels comfortable with
her, because Barney can literally be
himself with her because she does not
remember Barney at all from school.
'cause she was not like paying attention
to who he was or his past identity.
So she was like, oh, okay.
Jeremy: they'll deal with this a lot
more in, Episode three, and then in,
in future episodes down the line.
But like Norma is a really
interesting, intentional
depiction of somebody with autism.
Because like she hyper fixates
and she has, uh, social anxiety.
She doesn't know how to deal with
people and she feels like an autistic
character written by an autistic
author to me, I feel like, yeah,
Ben: But how she felt, nothing like the
clips of the good doctor that I've seen.
Emily: Oh
Ben: She
didn't have any fights with Dr.
Hanh,
Alicia: no, I saw that clip.
It was so terrible.
Ben: of the most watched shows in
Alicia: But she even says something
about like, if I don't get this job
you know, what else will I spend
the next 15 years hyper fixating on?
So, like, she's very clear about
Ben: No, I loved episode three
and the focus on her anxiety.
Emily: Yeah.
Jeremy: a good doctor has six seasons
and has been renewed for a seventh,
Alicia: This really bothers you.
We've talked about this multiple times.
Emily: bothers me too.
I haven't even seen it.
Alicia: So, everyone, let's just take a
break for a second to talk about Jeremy's
bafflement Absolute bafflement over
the fact that perfectly good shows like
grand Crew get canceled after two seasons
or The Babysitter's Club on Netflix.
I really love that show.
While shows that we would never,
ever watch and see nothing but people
making fun of seem to have six seasons,
Ben: there are, there are so many
shows that still keep like network
television going that are still some of
the most watched shows in the country
by sheer virtue of there are still
tens of millions of people who through
age or whatever other reason, Do not
and will not know how streaming works.
They know how to turn on the TV and they
know how to flip through 13 channels
and that's as far as they're getting.
So if what you get is c s I
crypto division, then c s I crypto
starring Atom Driver is gonna be
the most watched show in America.
Alicia: Wait, why am I interested in
what C S I crypto division looks like?
Wait,
Ben: It's starring Adam Driver.
How could you not be interested?
Emily: I know, right?
Like, I'm like, wait,
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Hold up.
Alicia: Pump the brakes.
Pump the brakes.
Emily: Yeah, no, like I think
it's a testament to just how large
and divided our country really is
that this
Ben: don't forget how long that like Jag
the show about Navy lawyers doing whatever
the fuck Navy lawyers do was like 13
seasons.
Alicia: the truth.
They tell
Jeremy: They don't even
say that in that show.
Alicia: the truth.
Emily: I
Jeremy: Listen, in between 2017
and 2018, the Good Doctor and
the resident both launched.
The resident has finally thanked.
God ended.
Its six seasons.
The Good Doctor is still going into seven.
Ben: They
Jeremy: of these shows are
medical dramas and both of
these shows are objectively bad.
Alicia: Have you watched any, any of them?
Jeremy: Yes.
I've watched the first couple
episodes of both of those, and
that was more than enough for me.
You watched The
Resident?
Alicia: I, I thought, was that the one
with, with the Logan from Gilmore girls.
Jeremy: from Gilmore Girls Going,
no, the Good Doctor is the one
with the doctor that has autism.
Alicia: I thought he was just
a new character on the one
Jeremy: No,
Ben: just insane to me that that's a
premise that someone walked into him and
was like, he's a doctor, but hold on.
Fucking strap in hold onto your plots.
He's autistic.
Alicia: Whoa.
Jeremy: and it's like, it's literally,
it's literally a baby step above.
What if Rainman was a doctor?
Like it's that close.
Emily: Oh my
Alicia: autistic doctors
upset about this depiction?
They should be.
Emily: There's doctors and then
there's also autistic people.
Jeremy: So doctors have been
distracted for the last couple of
Alicia: doctors who are
autistic people, I'm sure
Emily: I know.
I, I absolutely That
Ben: Yeah.
There's gotta be a center
of that Venn diagram.
Alicia: All right.
So we meet Barney, we meet Norma,
we meet Pugsley, and we also then
eventually meet Courtney as they finally
get to this spooky looking theme park.
I mean, Pauline Phoenix's theme park
looks like it's abandoned and falling
apart, but later we discover that lots
of people go there and it's just all
theme parks are creepy after hours.
I,
Jeremy: I think it's just this
one part of it that's closed now.
Uh, like
Emily: The, the horror
Jeremy: the part where
the girl disappeared.
Presumed at,
Alicia: meet Courtney and Courtney's
a little red demon uh, looking to trap
humans as offerings to be a new casing
Jeremy: foisted
by Hannah Montana's.
Emily Osmond, I just have to say
Emily: Okay.
Jeremy: a literal demon.
Emily: there were some threads
and now they're connected.
Continue
Alicia: all right.
So we also meet Courtney, who's a little
red demon, who is looking to trap humans
to become offerings uh, to be a new
lake meat casing for uh, the demon king
Emily: Timal Lucas.
Alicia: I keep wanting to say TEUs,
who is Odysseus and Penelope son, and
tele Amicus just keeps, like, trying to
come out my mouth, but it's Teal Lucas.
uh, It's clearly a trap.
She has clearly lured them there.
And she's about to put Tamal Lucas inside
of Barney when Pugsley gathers all of
his little pug courage and jumps in to
save Barney and gets hit with the blast.
And I'm sure that Ben, this, like
Ben: Well, I really did not like the,
even a little bit of death fake out.
But where I then thought this show was
going was, oh, the devil's trapped in this
dog body and we got a grim adventures of
Billy and Mandy type situation going on.
Emily: Right.
Ben: Not, not, not the case.
Alicia: well,
Ben: I like that there's cleverness.
'cause you know, wa I w I feel like
that it's a little too easy sometimes
for the show to veer into, and then
Pugsley uses his powers to save the day.
So I like when they are a little
more clever, like how figuring out
the photo can get uh, tele petro,
you know, uh, Petros out of Pugsley.
And episode three where they, I
don't know, weaponize anxiety.
Alicia: Yeah.
So, um, Tamal Lucas gets in Pugsley,
they spend the rest of the episode trying
to get him out and he has says something
like, no photographs and they end up
using a giant, like a ride photograph like
auto photograph to take a picture of him.
But there's a tiny little piece of
Tamal Lucas still stuck in Barney
Emily: in Pugsley.
Alicia: yeah, not in Barney, in Pugsley.
that's what we find out when
Barney says goodnight Pugsley.
And then Pugsley goes, night night,
Barney in the sweetest, cutest
little voice of Alex b Brightman.
This is also the episode where
when Pugsley like is possessed
and flies off to go find a throne.
And Barney runs after him.
Norma calls her mom and she's like,
I, she doesn't care about Pugsley.
She's like, he's a dog.
We could just leave.
But she does care about the park
and she does care about what
Pauline Phoenix is gonna think.
So she goes off to try and save the day.
Emily: Norma's writing is nuanced in
a way that , I was not expecting from
a show for, you know, TV y seven.
Also there is a point where Tamal
Lucas is fully possessing Pugsley.
And he asks, essentially,
take me to your king.
And they have to sort of, split some
hairs being like, we're not a monarchy.
And he clarifies, take me to
your leader so I can eat him.
And immediately Norma's like, oh yeah,
there's a White House over there.
knock yourself
Alicia: It's right, it's
right down that way.
Emily: yeah.
Which I think is like, it's, it's
kind of a throwaway line, but I
think it's also very powerful.
So, you know,
Alicia: Yeah.
Other, jokes that like
find their way into here.
So Pugsley as Tim Lucas can fly and.
To escape him.
They jump in a log flume ride
and pugsley flies after them and
jumps into the next log flume.
Like instead of just flying to where
they are, he jumps in the next one so
that they're very slowly, like, he's like
throwing magic at them while they're both
in separate logs floating down the river.
That made me laugh.
Courtney ends up offering them a job.
She says it's to protect her from other
demons and they need to be security, but
really it's because she wants to keep
Pugsley close because she feels like she
can figure out a way to free Tamal Lucas.
And if she does that, then
he will help her get home.
We find out that she's been
banished from her hell realm
and that is her main motivation.
So at this point, that's
the end of episode one.
Are there any other observations
that you wanted to make before
I jump into episode two?
Emily: Lenderman makes a cameo and.
Alicia: What's up with the paper
over his face that really disturbs
Ben: that was gonna be
a more relevant monster.
Emily: Yeah, the, I feel like the,
daddy picture over his face, it's like
a kid's drawing of like me and Daddy.
And I think that that's a, a
reference to deep slenderman lore.
And I know we did Marble Horn
minutes about a year ago.
I, you know, I collect this information
for the podcast and then I regurgitate
for the podcast and now I can't
Ben: I think it's more that it doesn't
do anything with the Slender Man.
It's just there and then it's not there.
Emily: Yeah.
The Slenderman gets, gets got for
trying to take the photo, which
alerts Norma to the photo weakness,
whereas the, the photograph takes
Ben: right, right.
Emily: And I do wanna
know whose phone that is.
Alicia: wanna Who calling him?
Ben: Presumably his phone may, well,
I, I mean maybe it's like a, it's
a health phone, demon realm phone.
Emily: either that or it's
the phone that belonged
to one of the
Ben: they,
they have
Emily: park employees.
Yeah.
Ben: he won it in a game show.
Emily: Perhaps, perhaps.
I mean, honestly, I wouldn't be
surprised if Slenderman was the
first demon to go, because that
is the closest direct reference
to a copyrighted design that I see
Ben: How can you copyright Slender Man?
Slender Man is the spontaneous
product of the something awful forums.
Emily: know Slenderman is, is, is belongs
to us all Slenderman belongs to the world.
But I'm sure somebody has,
Ben: copywriting vampires.
You can't fucking copyright vampires.
Emily: I have two words for you.
Vanta Black.
If you can copyright a color,
you can copyright a Slenderman.
Alicia: I was just imagining the woman
named Vanta Black who had written
vampire novels and was copywriting.
Emily: Why doesn't that
exist?
Oh, because Vanta Black has been
Ben: Vanta Black is the name
of at least 30 drag queens.
Alicia: Artistic drag
Emily: I hope they can.
Yeah.
Also.
Jeremy: you could, you could use
the name Vanta Black for a character
because that does not have any uh,
copyright crossover with naming a color.
Emily: Yeah.
And as long as it doesn't yeah,
you could just change the spelling.
I wish that someone would make a
theme park based on Trixie and Katia
formally of RuPaul's Drag Race.
I know that RuPaul, the
individual is problematic.
I know that it was no, no.
Nowhere near as wholesome as
a TV y seven show would be.
But if I was Norma it would be Kaia
instead of Pauline Phoenix that I was,
Alicia: you, I was like, I think you
could have a divine theme park, right?
Emily: probably.
But again,
Alicia: Like there's enough, like divine
wasn't enough stuff to have like, or
maybe just a John Waters theme park.
Emily: that's a different,
that's a different thing I think.
Yeah.
Jeremy's, yeah.
Jeremy: Could definitely not be
a Y seven John Waters theme park.
Emily: yeah.
Absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
That's, I don't know.
Ben: Oh man.
Now just imagine that like,
oh, we're going to the, like,
we're going to the waters park.
You mean the water park?
I said what?
I said,
Emily: That's
Jeremy: Mom, I'm going on
the Pink Flamingo ride.
No
Emily: Praise.
Yeah.
I,
Ben: the pink Flamingo Lazy River.
Emily: Actually I'm
not gonna go down that,
Jeremy: I was really worried about
where that Lazy River was going.
Emily: Yeah.
Yeah.
I was listening to a podcast and
they were talking about a waterpark
for adults and how they want it to
be, not like an adult waterpark.
Alicia: Right.
Well, I was trying to say
that to Jeremy one day.
I was like, I wish that there
was a playground for adults,
but there's no way to name it.
Emily: 'cause you can't
say it's for adults.
'cause then people are like, oh,
it's after
Alicia: it's an adult playground.
It's like, no, it's a playground with
equipment that is grown person size
so that I can get on swings and slides
Jeremy: I just want a fucking playground.
Not a fucking playground.
Ben: I was gonna say, unfortunately, I, I
feel like the closest we have is CrossFit.
Alicia: They got the bars.
Ben: Yeah.
Yeah.
Emily: that is like borderline.
I feel like that's Port borderline.
B D S M.
'cause I see those, CrossFit
people like dragging chains around.
And I'm like, you know,
Alicia: Jeremy, did you drag
chains when you were doing
Jeremy: I don't think I dragged chains.
I
Ben: did you whip the warrior ropes?
Jeremy: did whip the ropes and uh,
I flipped a tire around quite a bit.
Alicia: Just like that Bob's burgers
episode where Bob gets to like do,
and he's like, this is so much more
tiring than I thought it would be.
Emily: yeah,
Jeremy: That one sneaks up on you.
At first you're like, oh, this is easy.
And then after doing it for, you
know, 30 seconds, you're like, holy
shit, what happened to my arms?
Why don't they work anymore?
Emily: Yeah.
But anyway, so, oh, and I feel the
way that Barney feels about Pugsley,
I feel very, very deeply in my heart.
I felt that about every cat I've
ever owned, but my, my, all my
cats already had demons in them.
So we can have both all, you can
have a, a, a, a family member
who is an animal who talks to you
who is also possessed by a demon.
So, cats were always like that.
Anyway, episode, episode two.
Alicia: Episode two is called the
Tunnel.
So episode two is called the Tunnel.
We open on small Norma's core
memory of a scary encounter with
a mascot named Buster Scruffs.
Buster in her memories like leans
over as like, come on, little girl.
He's just got the, he's
got the funniest voice.
He's like, come on, come on little girl.
Come on.
So she's supposed to be jumping up in his
lap to take a picture, and that episode
hit on some things that I am afraid of.
I'm not like terrified of mascots,
but I just do not prefer them.
Emily: Mascots are, I can see why
a park would retire the mascot, the
person, the mascot costume, especially
in our age of those five nights of
Alicia: Yeah,
i, I guess Norma's probably
six or seven there.
Ben: well,
who's ever had any kind of
mass outcome where they didn't
turn into some sort of murder?
Zombie robot, army
Alicia: And of course these turn into
Ben: Westworld, itchy and
scratchy World, world Westworld.
Again,
Emily: Did the dinosaurs
and Jurassic Park count,
Ben: if,
if it really, the entire
bibliography of Michael Creton.
Michael Creon was fascinated with
exploring the theme of the science gone
too far, but for some reason could only
explore that theme in the very specific
plot line of we opened an amusement park.
Jeremy: There's also, wait.
These monkeys are way too smart.
Alicia: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's what I was gonna say.
Jeremy: Wait, these monkeys
are
Alicia: These dinosaurs and
these monkeys are too smart.
Emily: Yeah.
The Andromeda strain.
I mean, the, the place
where they were studying
the
Ben: that not about opening up a
theme park dedicated to viruses?
Emily: I mean, technically the,
the, the multi-leveled like facility
that they studied the Andromeda
strain in was very gimmicky.
And other than the, weird like
sanitary procedure that burns off,
well, the top layer of your skin, so
as not to contaminate the, facility.
Other than
Alicia: that, sounds like a great ride,
Emily: I mean, I, that's what
happens when I go outside.
Um, It's okay.
, Alicia: uh, we open on small Norma's
core memory of a scary encounter
with Mascot Buster Scruffs.
She's anxious around large crowds of
people and she's freaking out about
getting up there to take a picture when
his head falls off and his eyeball pops
out and the whole crowd is horrified
and thinks that surely this little
girl is going to be horrified as well.
And instead, Norma just laughs
and poses with the head.
And that's the picture that she has
of her at Pauline Phoenix's Park.
So present day the gang is going through a
box of missing employees possessions, and
they come across Jennifer's little badge.
We meet the rest of the staff who
we find out in a later episode.
Norma quickly renames because she can't
be bothered to remember anyone's name.
Barney falls in immediately an immediate
love with Logan Wynn, a k a logs and
ignores pugsley thereby covering up Pugs
Lee's new identity as a talking dog.
He tells Pugsley to keep it chill.
He doesn't want everybody to know he hides
pugsley away, and there are parallels
between his situation and Pugsley.
Emily: Did we mention
Ben: About the name I'm
with, I'm with Badia.
If someone gives you the
nickname death slide, just roll
Alicia: Yeah, so Baria is
uh, one of the characters.
She's one of the other employees.
This theme park has a very diverse
staff and also the attendees at the
theme park very diverse as well.
We see different heights, different
body sizes, different couple pairings.
And so the park is wonderfully inclusive.
it's what I guess Disney World aims to be.
Uh, We learned that the old mascots
were discontinued when Norma takes
over the staff orientation because
she already knows everything that
there is to know about the park.
And I gotta say, like, I was totally
feeling Norma here because one of
the things that I did in college was
because I grew up in Chapel Hill and
I love to read things about places.
When we had orientation, I took all of
my new friends that I met at orientation
on a Alicia guided tour of the campus.
And that is how I made all of
my new friends, and I am still
friends with them to this day.
Emily: That's beautiful.
Alicia: Thank you.
Ben: Friends who tour
together, stay together.
Alicia: Yeah, we
Ben: That's in
Alicia: I guess.
Yeah.
And Jeremy also, like recently when we
were in Chicago, I was like, I wanna take
a tour of the architecture of Chicago.
And he was like, why?
You're going to read everything that
there is to know about everything you're
about to see before you go on the tour.
And I do, I, I'm not ashamed of it.
I like to study before I
tour something and go to
Jeremy: Most people study
before they take a test.
You study before you take a tour.
Alicia: Exactly.
Emily: Yeah, well this is, you're
the person that we wanna travel with.
Alicia: I'm a great travel companion
Emily: I believe it.
Alicia: reason.
Emily: I believe it.
I mean, I just kind of wander
and be like, oh, that's neat.
And take a photo.
Like, but it's really cool to have the
interest and the fixation is I should
say the enthusiasm is contagious.
And that actually brings me to how nuanced
Norma's interaction with people is because
we see that she has anxiety, but she
can take this leadership role because
it is within her, hyper fixation and.
Ben: her hyper fixation includes,
I guess, heads falling off.
So if people could just have the decency
to like have their heads fall off,
normal would be a lot more comfortable.
Please, and thank you.
Emily: Well, and her, her reaction
to the head falling off, I feel
is a lot more of a nuanced trauma
reaction when you're a little kid.
You know?
Cause she had like you know, all of the
worst things were going on here, but she
was just like, it was so far beyond for a
little kid that she was just like, sure.
Alicia: is ridiculous.
Yeah.
Like this has to be ridiculous.
Emily: yeah.
And that actually, leads into some of
her struggles in the following episode.
But at first with, as I was just
sort of getting into the show,
I was really confused as to what
they were trying to say because
it was not as reductive as other
representations of people with anxiety.
Like, you have characters that are
kind of like C three po kind of
characters that are, that are very
anxious and they're presented as
either cowardly or uptight or whatever.
But that's not, that's not
what she is and that's not what
being neurodivergent is either.
There's a lot more nuance to it.
And it's not predictable.
And it's not as straightforward as
like someone has anxiety, so they can't
go out in the world and do things.
You know, I felt that was a really
interesting choice with Norma.
And it also wasn't one of those like,
you know, what did we learn today?
Kind of talking down situations that
you see in a lot of oft y seven shows.
Her, uh, traumas and her, her difficulties
build her character's strengths.
And it's not that she has
to, accept that or, you know,
that's, that's a burden for her.
It's just a different way that
she interacts with people.
Alicia: absolutely.
So they get on this monorail,
Norma's leading the tour.
Like you said, Norma has assumed this
leadership role, even though she is
anxious about meeting new people, she is
Ben: Yeah.
Alicia: about Pauline Phoenix.
Ben: Day off or death Slide.
Alicia: yeah.
And she is hanging out with all of the.
Ancillary cha characters at this point.
And Barney is on the
monorail with Pugsley.
Barney is obsessed with logs and doesn't
pay attention to Pugsley saying those
doors are really scary on the monorail.
They're worse than like the hand dryer at
the pizza place, or something like that.
And so when it comes time to exit the
monorail Barney's not paying attention.
Pugsley finally gets up the
courage to step off, and the doors
close and Pugsley is trapped.
So Pugsley ends up in the under
park with a bunch of discarded
mascots and um, they come to life.
Yeah, they, they come to life
and they're kind of like zombie
ish and they're going meet.
And so Pugsley decides to help
them escape the under park because
they've been cast aside like him.
So they get out.
Barney realizes that he's lost
Pugsley and goes looking for Pugsley
and finds Pugsley rounding up these
zombie mascots and tells Pugsley
that he needs to get back here now.
'cause he doesn't know what he is doing.
And Pugsley is like, no, I'm helping them.
I'm gonna help them get what they want.
And Barney says, bad Pugsley.
Pugsley says me bad, bad Barney.
And they have
Ben: that.
I love the
Bad
Alicia: bad Barney.
Yeah.
Like they have this whole back and
forth, but really what they discover
is that maybe Pugsley should have
listened because the mascots wreak havoc.
Ben: this show really exploring
the double-edged sword of
wishing that your pet could
Alicia: yeah,
exactly.
The ma the mascots wreak havoc because
they're going around saying meat all over
the place and people are freaking out.
And Barney realizes that he should have
listened to Pugsley because basically
he's turned into Grammy Graham.
Like he, he says, why can't
you just be my pugsley?
Why can't you be the pugsley that I
love that I felt, you know, that I've
Ben: can't you be
Alicia: And then he's like, oh, snap.
I've become Granny Graham.
Ben: Which again, talking
dogs as a metaphor for trans
identity shouldn't work but
Alicia: But it does, it does.
Well, I think, I think it also works
on a lot of levels of like, you know,
as a parent I saw this reflected
as I often feel like I am becoming
my mother or my grandmother and
hearing myself say things to my kids
that I swore I would never say, you
know, I love that Pugsley also
says, I didn't want to create panic
across the park, because that's
just such a sweet thing to say.
Turns out that they were saying meet
and greet, like the mascots didn't
want to eat people, they just wanted
to give hugs and sign autographs.
So Norma saves the day by having
a 1980s era mascot parade and
all of these ugly mascots go
Jeremy: just has the music stirred on
her phone because of course she does.
Alicia: And um, the, the park
attendees are like, oh, okay.
Well I guess that's fine.
Barney says he wants Pugley to be
able to live his life without apology.
And I think one of the things that I
find interesting about Barney's dynamic
with his mom is that he's not not living
at home because he got kicked out.
Ben: They're not hostile,
they're just not supportive.
Emily: yeah,
Alicia: yeah, it, it's not like civil
rights, Disney movie racism or bigotry
Ben: are the moderate.
They are the moderates that.
They're the moderates that
Martin Luther King warned us
Alicia: Exactly.
You know, they think that they're
being, she thinks she's being
supportive and she's saying, I love
you, and she's calling him Barney
and she's using the right pronouns,
but she's not backing him up.
And so Barney decides that
that's not a space that he
can be comfortable in anymore.
I think the situation with Pugsley
maybe helps him understand some of
the struggle that his family might
be having, but also even bigger.
I think it puts on display for
anybody watching this show or any kids
watching, any adults watching this
show, that it's not enough to just
tolerate somebody else's identity.
Like that needs to come with acceptance.
And that means work.
That doesn't just mean that you can just,
Ben: this is where, you know, we talked
about some of the stuff with the world
building I think comes back because, oh,
your dog now talks and if people knew your
dog talks, they'd be like, what the fuck?
And like, so you have to keep it a secret.
Like that's a very standard
status quo setup for a kid show.
So again, and all the themes and hard
when it, that subverted and the metaphor
works, but then like we said, it does
kinda go back to this world building
issue of being like, oh, so I guess
everyone is aware of talking dog.
Is anyone gonna have a reaction to that?
Alicia: Again, if you see
something paranormal, just
keep it to yourself, darling.
Ben: I know, but I, I, I don't think that
one line is quite enough for just how.
Alicia: Bo says it later too,
when they were like, whoa,
were those zombie mascots?
And bodi is like, keep
it to yourself darling.
Emily: Yes, she does.
Yeah.
She basically like, repeats that, I
kind of like that about a lot of new
shows that have that going on where
there's like magic stuff going on
where people are just like, all right,
we could spend a lot of time thinking
about like, now what does it mean to
society that there's a talking dog now?
When we can just have a story with these
characters and I can totally understand
being like, wait, hold on a minute.
We have a, there's a talkie dog.
Alicia: Also, he now walks upright
Emily: Yeah.
He like
Ben: Yes.
I love pugsley walking
Alicia: love pugs.
Lee's like
Ben: is walk is wonderful.
Alicia: his cute little.
Ben: little Fs I love Pugsley.
Alicia: Everything about puzzling,
and then if you like, later on we're
gonna see inside Barney's house, but
there is the picture on the wall of
Pugsley and a top hat and a bow tie,
and it's just darling.
Jeremy, what'd you think
about this episode?
Jeremy: It was it was a funny one to me
because as we were watching it, there
was a point where I, I think I said
this to you as we were watching it,
that I was like, I was thinking early
on in this episode, oh, is the talking
dog thing a metaphor for transition?
And then I was like, I
can't say that out loud.
That sounds terrible.
And then like, the show said
it out loud and I was like,
Oh, Oh, okay.
Oh, you do mean that.
Okay.
I thought it was really interesting.
I, I liked the sort of like,
exploration of the, you know,
spooky mascots and everything.
I, I think it sort of also
establishes the stuff that'll, that
I think is important about Norma.
As a character with her anxieties,
because she, she does have social anxiety.
She is anxious about what a lot of
people would consider normal daily stuff.
But you know, the, the thing
with the mascot, like the head
falling off, the thing that
should be scary doesn't scare her.
Like, she's not afraid of scary stuff.
She likes poorer stuff.
That's part of like her fixation
with Pauline and with this park.
It's like that stuff is
not a problem for her.
And I think that, you know, becomes
very important in the next episode.
It's the everyday stuff the social stuff
that is scary and is a problem for her.
Ben: I like one thing I really like in
this episode, especially being the second
episode, is I feel like it makes really
good use of the amusement park setting.
You know, you got monorail tours like
zombie mascot costumes is a very specific.
And a wonderful concept that you could
only do in this amusement park setting.
Alicia: B I know you've said
before that like Simpsons is
ingrained like in your brain.
When you saw the monorail, did you sing
the monorail song from The Simpsons?
Because I definitely was
like monorail, monorail.
Emily: Look, there's no way
there's, you know, you know.
Like you're, you're in a
particular group of people.
Like, you know, that you can communicate
a certain way with a particular
group of people when you say monorail
or you hear the word monorail
and people automatically go monorail,
Ben: show take place in
Denville or North Haverbrook?
Thank
Jeremy: Mm-hmm.
Emily: maybe.
Possibly.
That's a bit of a deeper cut.
Nice,
nice.
Yeah,
Ben: Fucking Letter Nemo
Guest starring like a boss.
Emily: it's so random,
Ben: So random.
Emily: back when the Simpsons,
Ben: I tell you I just found out that Next
Generation and like the last two original
series movies like took overlapped.
I did not realize that.
Emily: I know.
It's
Alicia: But Leonard Nemo
is on Next Generation.
Emily: yeah, he and um,
uh, James Deon as well.
Like, there's an episode with James
Deon and I, I was like, what the hell?
Ben: Like I get now, why
who's a better captain?
Kirk or Picard was such a pertinent
thing in the late eighties when
they were both on screen at the
same time doing captain stuff.
That makes more sense now,
Emily: Picard is better by the way.
I just want
everyone that,
You know, some kids
had, Jesus, I had Picard
Alicia: and
I have seven.
Ben: captain of the enterprise.
Alicia: Love it.
Emily: Oh,
Alicia: What do you
think seven's go Word is.
Emily: sorry, I, when you said seven,
I was thinking about the film with Brad
Pitt and Morgan Freeman, and I'm like,
maybe sevens goward is what's in the box.
Ben: I, if we
Emily: about
Ben: if we get that Star Trek legacy,
and I know this is a very stupid
movie to be making a pun title out of.
I hope we get lucky number seven
and it's all just referencing
the Josh Harnett movie.
Emily: Morgan Freeman.
Ben: I, I I made a choice
of focus on Josh Harnett.
Emily: I appreciate you know what,
that was the better choice to make.
Ben: It was like I thought about
it and my brain made a choice.
I.
Alicia: and by all accounts,
it was the right choice.
Emily: Speaking of choices I'm
gonna, going back to the show.
Ben: Yeah.
Oh yeah,
yeah.
Shit.
Right, right.
We should do that.
Emily: The art, the, I mean, I was
talking earlier about how whoever
designs Barney's character did so
from a very experienced place, right?
But also the demon designs
and those mascot designs.
Like, I love the, the sort of MTY
character designs of the show.
It's very charming.
It's very cute, while also being
very inclusive and diverse.
But the, the demon designs are so nuts.
Alicia: Like Gord, the long one.
Emily: yeah, the weird, like one with
the, it's like a worm with a face,
and then there's like a weird, like
cow fetus one, and there's all sorts
of weird stuff that I'm like, this is
t y seven, this is t this t y seven.
But then also the mascots like, yeah,
okay, five guys to Fred's is the thing.
And it has defined what
we see from mascots.
But Buster Scruffs, which
Alicia: come on little girl.
Emily: the Ballad of Buster
Scruffs, I wanna know what,
what, where he comes from.
Is he from the western,
Pauline Phoenix was in?
Who knows?
But there's that time in the
eighties where suddenly every.
Mascot character was glam,
and you know that that's
Ben: Garfield and his glam friends.
Emily: Oh my God.
Like,
Ben: The glam glam?
Emily: is
Ben: No.
Was that was that not one
of Garfield's farm friends?
The glam clam?
It was not.
Jeremy: That sounds
like a, a sexual
Ben: was
Alicia: was like going through
Garfield and friends and like I
Ben: no.
This was just in my head, just
like a, glam with like eyes, but
this also dressed like Liberace.
Emily: I think that's a, I think
that's an 8 24 movie that just
came out, but the shell Anyway.
Talk about horrifying.
But yeah, the, the, like, the
glam, there's just like randomly
glam mascots and things like that.
And like, yeah, five Nights at Freddy's
has addressed that with the new game
that came out a while ago, whatever.
But anyway there's some
really solid art decisions.
And I just wanna address that and, and,
you know, as a, as an artist and as
somebody who, who enjoys the process of
character design I appreciated that a lot.
Ben: Yeah.
Alicia: I'm trying to look up a picture
of Buster Scruffs, and it's very hard
because Google just really wants to show
Ben: Do,
Alicia: Scrubs.
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: do we, uh, have any more
thoughts on episode two or do
we wanna dive into Beach Day?
Anxiety fun?
Emily: I wanna
Alicia: too?
Emily: about harmony.
Alicia: All right, let's do
Ben: You mean
Emily: I wanna harmony
Ben: voiced by Alan Cumming?
Incredible.
Get.
Emily: I did not realize that.
Jeremy: Night crawler himself.
Emily: Oh my
God.
Alicia: accent.
You
Emily: Yeah.
Alicia: up.
Emily: Well his, Scottish
accent is very subtle until uh,
Badia does the impression of
him
Alicia: And then you're
like, wait a second.
Emily: Oh yeah.
He
Alicia: He does have a Scottish accent.
Yeah.
Body's impression is really good.
Right.
Alright.
Episode three is called Trust Me.
And I just wrote a couple of
like throwaway lines here.
Courtney has figured out that Timal Lucas
is inside of Pugsley still and she knows
that his hair is probably what brought
the mascots to life in the first place.
And so she's gonna try and teach
Pugsley how to do some spells.
One of my favorite
jokes is so simple here.
Courtney, who loves pop culture, she
says You're a Wizard pugsley to him.
But she hands him a book
and he's like, what's that?
And she says, spell book Pugsley Pugsley.
And Pugsley goes b o o.
she's,
Ben: I
also love that.
I love that joke a lot.
Alicia: I loved
Emily: Yeah, that was
Alicia: Um,
Emily: good stuff.
Alicia: because just the episode
before Barney has been getting
pugsley to say things and trying
to make him say like, indubitably,
which was just hilarious and cute.
Emily: Yeah.
When uh, Courtney Hands publicly the
book, it's, you know, a thick, thick book.
You know, it's like a classic
tome and leys, like, I don't
know if I can handle this one.
I don't think my comprehension
is that advanced.
You know, I just finished
that one about the, the Hungry
Caterpillar and, uh, twist ending.
Also fun fact demon Lord
Corner do, do deep abracadabra,
Alicia: vodka cadaver.
Emily: No.
Ava Cadabra.
Yes.
I don't, I don't believe for a second
that JK did any sort of research
Alicia: No, I think it just
sounds like abracadabra and
Emily: because,
Alicia: the funny
Ben: How do we make, how,
what if Abra was evil?
Alicia: Exactly.
Emily: and that's the
thing, is that, okay,
Alicia: Okay.
I always thought abracadabra
meant like abre cadaver, which
means like open a dead body.
That's how I always thought about it.
Emily: okay.
It comes from an ancient Greek okay.
Alicia: Oh no.
She had to take off the
little finger gloves.
Emily: Oh yeah, sorry.
The, the Abra is first seen in
like a magic book in the second
century or something like that.
And it's, it's based on some ancient Greek
talismans known as the Abraxis stones.
The Axi stones referred to a particular
being, which is referred to in
certain texts as a demon, but as a
demon that has access to holy power.
And abracadabra.
Yeah, he is sort of like in between,
and he wards off bad guys, so he
sort of like your demon guard tiger.
I don't say dog because dogs
are inherently good boys.
And this demon is
wording off other demons.
Abracadabra is also depicted as a talisman
that wards off disease and plague.
It is also referred to as a demon trap.
So when Courtney says,
don't say abracadabra by
Alicia: Oh, because it's a demon
Emily: it is I don't
know if they actually did.
I feel like they did because I see
some references to demons from like,
hys, Bosch and stuff like that.
Like there's some pretty deep cut demon
references without getting too like, mixed
up with the pine on and all that kind of
stuff, the kind of issues that we've had
with things like hereditary where they
talk about demons and then just stop.
Whether it's a coincidence, a funny joke
or not about like, oh, we don't say abra.
I choose to believe that there is
some, some involved demon lore here.
So, I appreciated that.
I appreciated that little nuance
and the fact that the demon
Courtney is not evil, just chaotic.
Alicia: Yeah.
I don't know if she's entirely,
I mean, she certainly loves
chaos, but what she really wants
is just to get home, like she's,
Ben: And trash
Alicia: actions make, and she wants to eat
trash, which don't we all, don't we all?
Who's gonna, who's gonna
judge Courtney for that?
Emily: and I also love that
she is a girl character and
explicitly, she is a girl demon.
She's not like a, a, a gender
fluid demon or anything like that.
Alicia: I think in the original
series in the books, she was a
non-binary gender fluid demon.
But I think for the television
show, if I remember what I read
correctly, they wanted to not
imply that gender fluid people were
Jeremy: Demon.
Emily: Yes.
Alicia: Yeah.
Emily: You know, and I do love a gender
fluid demon, but I think in this case,
it was a good, a, a, a good decision.
And I also really appreciate that you
could have the girl character who is
of like a trash rat like of character,
which you know, is, is another decision
that a lot of series will pass up on.
So, you know, that's, that's fun.
Thank you.
Show.
Alicia: Thank Keisha.
All right, so let's
dive into this episode.
uh, this episode is called Trust Me.
As I said before, we find out that
Norma is bad at making friends.
You know, she shows up at Beach Day Trust
Exercises Day and her mom, you know, kind
of pushes her outta the car, which was
like, everybody in this car loves you.
Everybody out there needs
to know how cool you are.
So get outta my car,
smooches, go make friends.
And Barney tells Norma that it's
easy to make friends with people
if you try to get to know them.
And you learn people's names.
And she's like, why do I need to do that?
I've got names for everyone.
And that's when she find, we find
out that she basically calls people
whatever job that they're associated
with, like she calls body a death slide.
And BOD is like, hold on a second.
No, I, I'm keeping that.
Did I really like that nickname?
That's great.
Baia also we find out
is just delightful and
Ben: Oh yeah, she's
Alicia: good friends with Norma.
Ben: She's a wonderful character.
Alicia: Yeah, because she's just
fine with allowing Norma to be who
Norma is and she thinks Norma is cool
and Norma can't figure out why Baia
thinks that she's cool, but Yeah.
Yeah, she calls logs health and safety.
So one of the things that I
noticed is that when Harmony
greets them, he says nama
Emily: Yeah.
Alicia: and only logs.
And Norma seem to register this as wrong.
Like Norma
Jeremy: Both the, both the Asian
characters are like, what the fuck?
Alicia: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Norma's like, the logs just kind of
gives a polite little whatever which
is, and I have in my notes, like in
a big square, who is paying them,
like who is paying them to be here?
Who is paying harmony to do this?
Harmony is clearly evil.
From minute one.
And
Ben: he
still probably like a deposit check.
Still probably needed
to be sent in though.
Alicia: somewhere, right?
Jeremy: Before, like we get to sort of
the twist of, harmony in this like opening
section where they're going through the
trust fall, the trust exercise is the
trust fall bit is the funniest to me.
And somehow most relatable because
Barney stands behind Norma to do the
trust fall and Norma falls forward
instead of backing the Barney.
And Barney says, why
didn't you fall backwards?
And
she says,
Alicia: do that?
Jeremy: have caught me.
So like she f she would
rather fall forward on her
face than risk the person not
catching
Alicia: did not catch herself, did not
fall forward and catch herself
on her hands, fell forward
flat on her face because
Ben: Her no, look, it's like when
you're falling, you're like, look, my
nose will catch, will break my fall.
Emily: I mean, it is, so, it's
such a perfect little vignette
of what anxiety does to you.
The neurodivergent among us can
overthink something like this where
they're like, well, if I fall backwards,
then these many things will happen.
But if I fall forwards, I know
I'll just fall on my face.
You know?
Jeremy: Yeah, you don't have to
risk being disappointed or being,
you know, mistreated if you know
that you're going to throw yourself
face first into the ground.
Emily: yes, yes, yes,
Alicia: Yeah.
So Harmony is their leader.
He is doing all of these trust
exercises, these team building
exercises, and he's going through all
of the classic team building exercises.
Which leads me to one
of my questions for you.
What is your favorite team
building exercise, Jeremy Go.
Jeremy: I mean, as, as a.
As a drama student, I really
enjoy the the mirroring exercise.
The, I don't know if that's ex,
it's not a trust exercise, but it
is sort of like a team building,
relationship building thing of, you
know, mirroring the the other person
Ben: Drinking.
Alicia: All right.
Okay.
Team building, exercise, drinking.
All right.
Emily, what's your favorite one?
Emily: Feeding Fierce to the skull?
Alicia: Well, you're in luck because
that's what they're going to do.
I was gonna say that human not thing
that would always makes me excited or
anytime I got to play with a parachute
in PE because they brought out the
parachutes and that was the best
Emily: When did they bring it out?
In the show.
Alicia: parachutes.
No, they didn't do that in the show.
That's just what I like.
Emily: Oh, yeah.
Jeremy: is what I like.
Ben: I'm gonna say being
inebriated is the only thing that's
ever made me not wanna leave.
Alicia: Yeah.
Whenever people say, now they're like,
let's go do a ropes course, and I'm like,
Emily: Yeah.
Having to touch other people is not great.
Especially in like a professional
setting, you know, that's a little
bit dicey for me, especially like
if you're all tangled up bodily.
Ben: Anytime I've been at a
ropes course or done that truss
exercise, I always fall into a no.
Hey, I think we should.
Is, is anyone listening to me?
All right.
No.
Alright.
Fuck it.
I don't care.
Emily: yeah,
Alicia: I, I have to admit that
as a teacher, people always have
icebreakers that they're like,
oh, let's do some fun icebreakers.
I hate them.
I'm bad at them as a teacher.
I never played games.
I will participate in them if asked
to because I don't want anybody
to like their plans to go poorly.
And usually after finishing an
icebreaker, I'm not unhappy that I did.
However, whenever I teach anything,
like my students are like, are
we ever gonna play any games?
I'm like, no, I don't play games.
I don't, I don't like them.
Jeremy: And come here to make friends.
Ben: Every party I've ever been at where
it's like, now let's do an icebreaker
game to get to know each other.
I'm like, I was already doing that.
It was called having a fucking
conversation, which you have now
interrupted for this bullshit game.
Emily: yeah.
Like I was in, I was into something.
I found out this person says monorail.
When I say monorail, monorail,
and now I'm like, oh, I know
I could talk to at this game.
Alicia: yeah, I.
Emily: party, whatever
Alicia: I will say, when I was in Kenya
we asked the teachers to introduce
themselves and like say their name and
like what subject they have, just so
we could get a feel for who's there.
And the first person who stood up
told the story of how he got his name.
I mean, it was very short.
It wasn't very long, but he said what
his name meant and why he was named that.
And then every other person said what
their name was and what their name
meant, and how they got that name.
And I was like, that is the coolest.
Like, I was just like
fascinated the whole time.
I was like, oh my gosh,
this is the most amazing.
What did I ever think to do this?
Anyway.
Okay.
So yeah.
So harmony, clearly evil.
I mean, he looks like a total,
Emily: Hippy.
Alicia: D does.
He, does he actu, I mean,
Jeremy: Like
a
hipster
Alicia: his hair swooped over one eye.
He's got like a little goatee.
He's wearing like a little skull necklace.
He's wearing like
Ben: a guy who lives in a van.
Alicia: Yeah.
And he comes out
Jeremy: down by the
Alicia: like a dashiki adjacent
shirt or whatever, like top.
and he starts asking them to explore
their fears as their final trust exercise.
And he is clearly feeding off their fears.
He's getting like a real high
off of them touching this special
skull that he has, and they're all
getting trapped in their fears.
But plot twist, Norma is the Hulk.
What's her secret?
She's scared all the time.
When you're scared all the time,
you have to just figure out how
to get through the world even
though you're scared all the time.
So Norma discovers that she can
enter other people's fears by
touching the skull with them and
helps everyone deal with their fears.
And then she feeds all of her anxiety into
harmony whose name is actually harm many,
and she feeds him enough that he explodes
and they are covered in a disgusting goo,
Jeremy: I the skull cracks.
Alicia: and the skull and floats
away into the lake that probably
has alligators and sharks in it.
If it's anything like Disney World.
Emily: Yes.
I don't know what kind of supernatural
runoff is going on with that
park, but I'm sure that it is
contaminating the surrounding area.
Alicia: Yeah.
Throwaway lines from this episode
that were my favorite other than
spell book PUDs Lee was when Harmony
says, I always bring a skull to a
party, and Courtney's like, Hmm.
Yeah.
it's just a cute
Ben: Courtney, you know Courtney is
a delightful presence in the show.
Alicia: yeah.
Emily: Um,
Alicia: Courtney's like, yeah, I get it.
I get it.
This is my worst fear.
You've all seen it laugh at me.
Ben: I do feel like there's a
certain element where like maybe in
a different world it would be healthy
to feed your fears to the skull.
Emily: I mean, yeah, like if
Ben: it's like if the skull isn't
like trapping you in fear world, but
just being like, I take your fears.
Emily: Yeah,
Ben: I eat them.
Alicia: What, what what show is that?
Where she's like, I just
took all your negativity.
I just took all your negative energy.
Ben: What if the skull with could be
Alicia: I
Emily: maybe.
Yeah.
Alicia: think in the good place
Ben: Yeah.
What if that skull is just
Pac-Man going through Oh yes.
That, yes.
I take your negativity.
Like just going through your brain,
just chomping up all the fears,
Emily: Yeah.
Ben: eating them, fear
ghosts, and also cherries.
Emily: and Yeah.
Yeah.
All of those ghosts are really
cute, so I think that we should, I.
Also appreciate that our fears are
important and cute and part of us we
don't always need a power pill anyway.
Uh,
Alicia: an anxious person, like
I, I have a lot of anxieties
and you just, I had, I have to learn
how to just like accept them and so
that I can continue moving on with life.
Jeremy: was gonna say, I feel like
we had a conversation about that
recently where I was like, you have to
accept that this is a thing that you
could be anxious about, but that you
can't do anything about it right now.
So you just put it off to the side.
Like that's how I puts, how
I deal with anxiety is like,
can I do anything about this?
Nope.
All right.
Emily: Yeah.
the tricky part is keeping all that
side anxiety from coming back at
you when that you know, that rubber
band of reality slip slaps back.
the idea of an uh, chronically anxious
character as nuanced as Norma is being
able to kind of utilize that Hulk logic.
To defend herself and also overpower
a fear demon like this demon feeds
on fear, but ultimately is not very
like, experienced in dealing with
neurodivergent people and I think
that's the thing is that demons don't
go for people that are divergent in
any way because they're unpredictable.
I, I don't know.
I'm just
Alicia: Is that
what you tell yourself so that you
can like convince yourself that
demons will not come for your brain?
Emily: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,
No, this is absolute, this is
absolutely how I accept myself.
Jeremy,
Alicia: you're like,
I might be weird, but.
Emily: Yeah, yeah.
I'm too weird.
Well, have I told you guys
the story about the in Japan?
Alicia: No
Emily: So,
okay, real quick.
So I was visiting a friend of mine in
Japan, and he was doing the study abroad
program and if he was with a host family,
it was really, really awesome family.
It lived out in this kind of suburb of,
it was more like a the North Bay to Tokyo.
It was a good 40 minute
train ride from Tokyo.
And it was in this, this lovely
little town that had like rice
fields and forests and stuff.
And there was a uh, comic
shop that I wanted to visit.
It was open till midnight,
but it was through the woods.
So I would have to walk from this
town through these woods that had
a road that had no speed limit.
There were no streetlights or anything.
At 11 o'clock at night through the
woods to this, this other town.
And yeah, they had really rare mangas.
And you know, now they're all
like, I mean, this is 2002.
Alicia: See, Emily, this is why
the demons gonna get you because
they know your weaknesses.
They're gonna say they're mangas.
Emily: Well, yeah, like I, yes, su well,
the thing is, my friend Robert, who I
was visiting is Goth and our host mom for
lack of a better term, I mean, she was,
she's the, the host mom of the family.
She was giving us this flashlight
and she's like, here you
go, watch out for the que.
And I'm like, I'm sorry, what?
And Robert is like, oh,
it's like a boogieman.
Don't worry about it.
And I'm like, I'm worried about it.
Like I'm fully worried about
it because this is, you know,
this, this very, this this very
serious woman.
Yeah.
Like, I don't know if she's, just
fucking with me for funsies, you
know, which is like cool, whatever.
Didn't seem like that
kind of person though.
And she was like, Just watch out for the
oba and, when we came home, she explained
that like she was worried about the
oba, but the keay, which are the sort of
trickster foxes also are in those woods.
And she said, well,
Alicia: Wait, wait.
Are those the ones with like seven tails?
Emily: nine tails, usually
when they're like old.
Yeah.
And the kite will play tricks
on you and eat you or something.
They'll, there's a variety of things
that they do, but apparently she
wasn't worried about the kite getting
us because Robert was too goth.
So apparently Kite are afraid of goths.
And so if Keay can be afraid of
goths, I feel like demons could be
afraid of how powerful my anxiety is.
I know it's, it's a stretch of logic, but
I think, you know, the fact that someone
else, yeah, the fact that the whole
crew over at dead end, Peral Park also
picked up on, on some of these concepts.
I feel like there's,
there's something there.
Alicia: I think there is absolutely.
So yeah, any other straight
observations about this episode?
Ben: Just that I thought
this was wonderful.
I thought, this is a really
great depiction of anxiety being
overwhelmed uh, social situations.
Again, terrified of having to
socialize with my coworkers.
So I feel like they
captured that very well.
Great.
Guests are um, I think I just
really wanna highlight the shift in
art style when we go into Norma's
world, which is so well executed.
Alicia: Absolutely
Emily: All the fear worlds were very,
very cinematic in ways even with
Ben: I like hamster world.
Emily: yeah, the hamster
world with like the weird
uh, color.
Yeah.
Alicia: like,
the red being so.
Emily: it's like, is this Elden ring?
No, it's a world where hamsters
curl up your sleeves, which is,
you know, I One thing I do wanna
mention about the fear worlds is
the the fear, the fear hallucination
that Barney has about his grandma.
There are a lot of ways that they could
have made that a lot more terrifying.
Not, well, I don't wanna say terrifying.
There are a lot of ways they could
have made that a lot more traumatizing
for members of the audience and
the way that when we watched they
them, or they slash them the first
thing that they lead with is one of
the most traumatizing and upsetting
things that can happen to a person,
which is girl being misgendered
and caught knocked in the shower.
Like, all this stuff that is
really, really upsetting on
levels that, you know, whoever was
uh, yeah.
And but this movie or this movie,
this show, especially the, the
fear hallucination that that Varney
has, does not include any slurs,
dead naming harsh language even.
Because
Alicia: But it's still so scary.
Like it's so perfectly
embodies Barney's fears.
I think it's one of those things that's
like, it's not scary to watch, but it
would be scary if it happened to you.
Like the discordant noise and the
pointing and the incessant pointing.
You know, it's, I thought
that was very well done.
Emily: Yeah.
And it's also I mean, it doesn't
highlight anything that is toxic that
people could repeat, which I think
is really important for a kid's show.
Alicia: Yeah, I guess kids could
just point at each other really hard.
Jeremy: I already do that.
Emily: they, yeah, they already
do that they do a really good
job of highlighting the fear.
And, you know, with the context
of the rest of the episodes, we,
we know why grandma is, or Grammy
Graham is upsetting to Barney.
We don't need the specifics.
And I think that that's important
because so many people dismiss
when you are harassed or when
you are dead named or whatever.
People could say, well, those
are just words people say, have
the same argument for slurs.
Like why are slurs so, powerful?
They're just words.
It's not the words.
And I thought it was a really great
poignant way for the of kids show
to express that without dismissing
or reducing the experience.
Two words, if that
Alicia: Absolutely.
Yeah.
So, Jeremy, I believe there's
some questions that you
usually ask around this time.
Jeremy: Yeah, I, I think most
of them we've honestly answered.
I.
We've all sort of agreed that it, it
deals with L G B T issues very well in
the, the form of Barney and, and further
on, I think in Barney and logs quite
a bit as their, you know, relationship
as through Yeah, well there are other
characters with queer identities,
but none of those are discussed in
these shows that we're talking about.
But there is more to that.
I do also think like this is one
of the more interesting and nuanced
depictions of both anxiety and autism.
Usually our questions about mental health
and, and illness boil down to trauma.
But this one is actually like very,
sort of interested in nuanced in,
in discussing and depicting both
autism and general social anxiety.
We've already talked about quite a bit.
Do we feel like this the
show is feminist guys?
Emily: yeah,
Ben: Oh yeah.
I mean,
Emily: Especially
Ben: yeah, we got Courtney Norma.
I mean, this is all full of.
Three dimensional, well developed
women characters like who
got plenty of stuff going on.
Plenty of focus on the main cast.
Yeah, there's definitely a good
gender balance in the show, I think.
Emily: It doesn't suffer from tokenism.
Jeremy: Yeah.
I think a lot of the characteristics that
are often depicted in male characters are
shown through female characters in this.
We do have, you know, Courtney
is sort of the, the trash
person uh, or demon in her case.
I, I feel like there's a large
tendency for, for almost every
socially anxious or autistic character
that I've seen on TV has been male.
And I, I think this is, unusual and
extremely well done in that case.
We, we don't get as much of it in
these first few episodes, but I think
Baria as a character gets better
and more interesting as, as we go
and starts to fill out quite well.
Trying to think.
I mean, obviously there's
Pauline who is sort of a villain.
She is a villainist in some ways.
And sort of an extreme
example in a, a lot of ways.
But yeah, there's this a pretty
well gender balanced cast.
The, the weird face I was making earlier
that Emily started to ask about is I
was looking at the cast and I realized
that it's a very interesting cast just
generally, but Josh, who is one of
the sort of the white guy theme park
worker that they're friends with, who
only appears in like five episodes, is
voiced by Patrick Stump of Fallout Boy.
Alicia: Oh,
Emily: Sing.
Ben: That's fun.
Jeremy: yeah.
And this for like five episodes.
It's just like, it's a strange choice.
Emily: He does sing.
Alicia: he, he is a singer, doesn't he?
Isn't he like doing this job until
he gets discovered or something?
Emily: I don't, I don't remember that
bit, but I, I do remember he does start
the music for the musical episode.
Alicia: Huh?
Jeremy: Yeah, I, it's, it's
generally a really interesting cast.
Especially like some of
the, the later episodes.
We meet, we do meet Tamal Lucas's sister,
later Zain, who's played by MJ Rodriguez.
So there's, there's like a lot, a
really interesting group of people
that we, we get throughout the series.
It's really well cast What about race?
How, how do we generally feel about
how race is dealt with in this?
Ben: I mean, it, it doesn't seem like
it's ever being addressed directly.
But again, this is a wildly diverse cast.
I mean, you have a Jewish, a Jewish
and Iranian American in the le
Emily: Mm-hmm.
Alicia: Pakistani.
Ben: sorry, Pakistani American in the le
, Emily: like I said, it's,
doesn't suffer from tokenism.
It, it's the, the character's
identities are not, the characters
aren't defined by their race.
Which I
Alicia: their race does
inform their characters.
Their ethnicity and culture
does form who they are.
Yeah,
Emily: Yeah.
Which is important.
I think it's, it's an important thing
'cause you know, you can't ignore it.
Alicia: agreed.
Emily: I also wanna mention the, I
appreciate the depiction of Barney.
As a larger person.
, it's, you know, it is acknowledged, but
it is not an issue for the character.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Ne never is it implied by either
Barney or in later episodes, Barney's
romantic partner logs that like, this
is a thing that needs to be fixed.
know,
Alicia: Yeah, I absolutely love the
fact that in later episodes we find out
that Barney is pretty athletic as well
Emily: Yeah,
Alicia: and really
enjoys going to the gym.
Um,
Jeremy: pro wrestling
Alicia: and he loves pro wrestling
Ben: Yeah, we, I, I got far enough
to the episode where he tried
to suplex a giant enemy crab
Alicia: yes.
Ben: spoilers.
It did not work.
Alicia: So, would you all recommend this?
Ben: Yeah, I'm probably
gonna keep watching it.
I
think.
I mean, I know it ends on the
cliffhanger and fell victim to the
greatest grim reaper of them all.
Netflix,
Emily: God, I.
Jeremy: It only, it doesn't,
doesn't, I'm trying to think if
it really ends on a cliffhanger.
Like they definitely set more stuff
up to happen, but I do feel like it
both seasons sort of resolved the
larger conflict in those seasons.
So I don't feel like it's like
several of the mystery shows on
Netflix that have, like, died
without anything being resolved.
Ben: oh, as a big fan of Archive 81.
Emily: Oh, Jesus.
So, sorry.
Jeremy: least there's a podcast of that.
I, I don't know how closely
the two relate, but yeah.
Emily: I, I've only seen,
like I said, I've only seen
the first season of dead end.
And I don't know what happens
in the second season, but
just a spoilers real quick.
That design of, I guess it's an
angel maybe is so incredible.
Like, it's so unique.
Jeremy: You talking about fingers?
Emily: maybe the, the
one that looks like a
Alicia: A hand.
Emily: no,
no,
Alicia: Oh, okay.
Emily: the, the one that shows up
at the very end of the first season
anyway.
Jeremy: Hmm.
Okay.
Alicia: Yeah.
Okay.
Do you have any other things that you
would recommend if people like this
Ben: I mean
Alicia: check out?
Ben: this is probably the lowest
hanging fruit that we've ever
done for these recommendations.
But I think we can all
agree on Gravity falls.
Alicia: Yes, absolutely.
Ben: I mean, I, I I mean, I could
feel the Gravity falls influence
in like every inch of this show.
Not, not in a bad way, just like,
but yeah, this is like, yeah,
if you like this and you haven't
seen Gravity falls, Holy shit.
Go watch Gravity falls.
You are with yourself.
Emily: Yeah.
I feel, go ahead.
Jeremy: I could do a list.
I feel like there's a list here.
'cause I, I feel like owl House is, to
me the, the most obvious one because
it has a lot of the same scary stuff.
Fun show queer characters.
Yeah.
You know, I think both of them
have a lot of the same D n A as
Keo which is, you know, in a lot of
ways Owl House, but post-apocalyptic
rather than magical World.
oh, you were gonna say Keo, Alicia?
Alicia: was,
Jeremy: Yeah.
Alicia: I have a
Jeremy: And yeah, and I mean it also in,
in some ways, I think the, the character
dynamics of, of the lead two characters,
especially in some ways, remind me of
Star versus the forces of Evil where,
you know, you have the the, the female
character who is the more, like, was
that also your secondary recommendation?
You're
Alicia: recommending things.
I said recommend one thing
and you took three of mine.
Jeremy: You wanna, you wanna recommend
the Ghost and Molly McGee or,
Alicia: No,
you recommend it.
Jeremy: infinity Train is
another one that I feel
Alicia: that's, you watch that
Emily: I love, I, yeah.
Alicia: and people can't find it anymore.
That's the really sad
Emily: oh, that's, yeah,
Ben: Yo ho, ho and a
bottle of stolen shows.
Emily: Yoho Ho and a bottle.
A bit torrent.
Ben: Hey, so I'm just throwing out
this out there for no particular
reason, but uh, what series Id
make of that, what you will.
Emily: Sounds good.
Alicia: Emily, what would you recommend?
Emily: Well, I mean al like the Al House
and the Infinity Train and all
that kind of stuff, and you
knows Stephen Universe in there.
There's a, this new wave of cartoons
that are really, you know, I think
adjacent to this and, and kind of
are, are lovely pairings with this to,
to sound as Sonoma County as I can.
But one thing I would recommend actually,
that is if you wanna go back to some
roots of these programs check out real
Monsters and the Beetlejuice cartoon.
Alicia: Aw,
Emily: Um,
Alicia: Iki?
Emily: yeah, these cartoons
were nineties cartoons.
They were ahead of their time.
They're not as, deft at
dealing with these issues
at all.
However the character of Beetlejuice
and the character of Lydia Dietz do
have some things to say about you
know, maybe not Neurodivergence because
they're very much, well, more nuanced.
Alicia: odd.
Yeah,
Emily: Yeah.
Beetlejuice is a demon spoilers But the
fact that that Beetlejuice iss idea of
hell is like militarized, cutesy things,
I think is something that deserves a
little like consideration for the time.
And, you know, the, the characterization
of the, the sort of spooky characters
in those shows are so fun and weird
that I highly would recommend it I
should say, I would highly recommend it.
But yeah.
So, check out Beetlejuice.
Alicia: All right, well, cool.
Well, my final recommendation would be
to watch Hilda, which is also on Netflix.
Hilda is just also based on
a graphic novel, absolutely.
Darling and Precious and has a very
similar dry humor that this show has as
it's dealing with a main character who I.
Has adventures with lots of
different creatures and, you know,
develops their own found family.
They also have a really,
really, really cool librarian.
So yes, I absolutely
would recommend Hilda.
Emily: I love Hilda.
Alicia: Absolutely.
Emily: Yeah.
Whenever I feel like I need a, I
need a little shot of cottage core
and I also need to stay awake.
I watch Hilda.
If I don't need to stay
awake, I watch Moin,
Alicia: Yeah.
And I feel like I
understand David like a lot.
You know, David's a real, he's real
Arnold from the Magic School bus.
Like
Emily: absolutely.
Alicia: have stayed home today and I
feel like I understand him so well.
I also really love the episode where their
friend's room gets really messy and she's
like, look at what happens to my room.
And they watch it or like a video
of her all, all night and they're
like, you just messed up your room.
And she was like, yeah, I mess up my
room and it cleans itself every morning.
Does it yours?
And they were like, okay, wait.
That's the weird thing is that
your room is cleaning itself and
Emily: Yeah.
Alicia: staying messy,
Emily: Yeah.
not that not that
Alicia: brilliant.
Emily: sleep messing your room.
Because you know that, I can't remember
her name, that character's name.
I'm blinking on everybody's name and
Hilda, other than Hilda and David,
Jeremy: Woodman's a real one.
That's all I know.
Emily: one
Alicia: what meant
Emily: a real one.
Alicia: Frida.
Emily: Frida.
Like I love that about Frida, that she can
mess a room at mess up her room at night
because she definitely needs an outlet.
She is a very powerful, powerful being.
And, you know, life is not, is
is not powerful enough for her
unless she has to do a few things
to make it more challenging.
So
Alicia: and the kid who uh, played Hilda.
Um, I shouldn't say kid
because she's like 19 now.
So she's an adult, but you may
recognize her as a Leona Mormon.
Ben: Oh, Bella Ramsey.
Emily: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Ben: They play Hilda.
Yes.
Bella Ramsey uses they them pronouns.
Alicia: Thank
Emily: Oh, good to know.
Alicia: I did not know that.
I was trying to look it up really
Ben: Yes, they are.
Also Ellie and the last of us
Emily: Oh, cool.
Ben: on H B O, and they are
out in proud non-binary.
Emily: Awesome.
Alicia: Good for them.
Emily: Do they do the singing
Voice of Hilda as well?
Alicia: I don't know.
Emily: Because when Hilda
sings as cute as, as cutest
Ben: All
right.
But we should probably wrap up.
Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Alicia: should.
I feel like we've been talking for a
while, but thanks y'all for watching TV
with me and do we know what television
we are consuming for next week?
Emily: No.
Alicia: All right.
I would suggest evil just
because I wanna rewatch it.
But those episodes
Ben: With, uh, yeah,
evil starring Luke Cage.
Next
Alicia: Exactly.
Luke Cage and
Ben: I will be calling him
Luke Cage, the whole episode.
Emily: Is, is Evil the one with
like the Exfil, the Vatican
Ben: Yeah,
Alicia: yeah, yeah.
And it's set in the good wife, good fight
universe.
Ben: That can't be true.
Alicia: Yeah.
He's also, he's also in the
Good Fight and the good wife.
He
He plays a
Jeremy: different character in
Ben: As the
same can.
Oh,
Alicia: like they bring up Hi.
They bring that up, like,
they're like, oh, this guy.
And he is like, oh, I was out of
town for whenever we were doing this.
Like, they kind of imply a
connection, but yeah, they're
all set In the same universe.
I was really hoping that Diane
would show up at some point on
Ben: Gotcha.
So next week, evil.
Alicia: all right.
I don't know how to end the show, so,
Jeremy: you have to tell people that.
Alicia: thank you all for, for coming.
Thank you Jeremy Emily and Ben for
hanging out with me this evening.
Where can people find you online?
Ben: Hit me up on Twitter at Ben the Con
or@benconcomics.com.
Emily: I'm on.
Twitter is Mega Moth and the website,
mag moth.net and mega moth on Patreon.
Alicia: Awesome.
Jeremy: I am on Twitter, but
you probably shouldn't be.
Alicia: All
Ben: That's true.
Alicia: fantastic.
Ben: Don't go on Twitter.
Alicia: Okay.
And as for me, you can find me on
Twitter at alicia Whitley where I
mostly write about teaching stuff.
And that's pretty much it.
So thanks everyone for
joining me today and thank you
audience at home for listening.
And until next time, stay horrified.