Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

When communicating with their employees, most firms have no idea who they’re talking to.

Good communication is about knowing your audience. But if your organization is only focused on knowing your customers, James Root says you're forgetting a whole other cohort: your employees.
Root is a senior partner at Bain & Company, Chair of Bain Futures, and author of The Archetype Effect, in which he reveals a simple but overlooked truth: people want different things from their jobs. Despite this, most companies’ approach to employee motivation and reward is one-size-fits-all. “Every aspect of the standard organization model is built around this idea of the average worker,” he says. The problem? No average worker exists. “What people want from work is highly varied,” he says, and while many organizations spend millions to learn what drives their customers, “The mystery is why haven't we applied that same thinking to our workers?"
In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Root and host Matt Abrahams explore how firms can transform organizational success by understanding their internal audience. Whether you're trying to attract new talent or encourage better performance from the team you already have, Root's research shows why it’s about knowing your audience — recognizing that different people are motivated by fundamentally different things at work.

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (02:27) - The Evolving Nature of Work
  • (05:27) - Leading Multigenerational Teams
  • (08:56) - The Six Archetypes Explained
  • (14:01) - The Archetypes Evolution
  • (20:22) - The Final Three Question
  • (23:40) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
James Root
Senior Partner of Bain & Company | Chair of Bain Futures | Professor | Author

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.
Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Tuesday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our eNewsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Matt Abrahams: When it comes to
work, and our relationships to work,

and with our work, we often fail to
focus on our personal motivations.

My name is Matt Abrahams, and I
teach strategic communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast,
talk Smart, the podcast.

Today I'm very excited
to speak with James Root.

James is a senior partner at Bain
& Company and Chair of Bain Futures.

James is a fellow at Hughes
Hall College, Cambridge, and an

adjunct professor at the Hong Kong
University of Science and Technology.

His latest book is The Archetype Effect.

Welcome, James.

I am really excited for our conversation.

James Root: Delighted to be here.

Thank you, Matt.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you.

Shall we get started?

James Root: Yeah, let's do it.

Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

Among the many things that you
study, you spend a lot of time

thinking about the future of work.

What insights can you share about
what work looks like in the future?

James Root: Yes.

That's the question on everybody's minds.

I think work is going to
continue to be messy for a while.

It is already.

Gig work, remote work, self-managing
teams, cross-functional teams, an

aging workforce, skill gaps, and then
this ever expanding universe of AI.

It's stressful for many workers,
I think, including with people who

manage talent, it's hard for them.

And part of the problem is that we
spend so much effort thinking about

skills and tasks and jobs, but almost
no time thinking about motivations.

And as soon as we stop to understand
motivations, what pops up is

unfortunately how poorly suited our
talent systems really are to both

recognize and then adapt to what
turns out to be a very rich diversity

of motivations people have at work.

Those assumptions go back fifty
years, longer even, and they're built

for some kind of average worker.

They sort of assume everybody is moving
through the system, trying to be better

as a worker or better as a manager.

Trying to rise up through the
organization, more spans, more

layers, closer to the leadership team.

Personal motivations don't matter at all.

Every aspect of the standard
organization model that we've grown

up with is built around this idea.

Rewards, reporting structures,
decision rights, performance reviews.

The reality today, I think is
very different, both from an

organization point of view and
from an individual's point of view.

There are plenty of roles now where
personal progress and success and

results are not defined by taking
in just another step up the ladder.

That's all from the point
of view of the organization.

From the individual's point of view,
we've done this wonderful thing,

we've said, let's empower people.

Ask them to tell us who they really
are at work and what they really want.

And guess what?

When we did that, it turns out it
was a myth all along that everybody

wants to just climb up the next
step on the greasy corporate pole.

Some still like the idea
of the corporate ladder.

Great.

Others do not.

What people want from
work is highly varied.

There is no such thing as an average
worker anymore, and so that would

be okay if these talent systems
have kept up, but they haven't.

I'm afraid that their light years
behind, it's been routine for decades.

Our sales teams, marketing teams, customer
teams, product teams just become more

and more specialized and develop more and
more individualized solutions and products

and offerings based upon segmentation.

And that kind of de-averaging of what
customers like has obviously gone crazy in

the last twenty years now that we live in
a world of social and search and location

tracking and online payments and so forth.

So, you know, Google and Instagram and
XiaoHongShu and Byte Dance and Nava and

Kakao and LINE, et cetera, they know an
incredible amount of about us, of course.

But the mystery is why haven't we applied
that same thinking to our workers?

Why do the firms who are selling
us products or increasingly selling

our profile to advertisers know
so much more about our motivations

than the firms we actually work for?

Matt Abrahams: The point you just made
there about why are we not looking

at the motivations of employees, I
think is a really profound point.

Clearly work is changing and one
of those changes, as you alluded

to, is that workers, in terms
of their age and generations,

are increasing in the workplace.

It's possible now to have four different
generations all working together.

What are your thoughts on how leaders
can facilitate productive work and

communication when you have people
born from different generations

having to interact with each other?

James Root: We did some work.

It said, I think about a hundred and
fifty million jobs are going to move

to people who are over fifty-five
years old by the end of this decade.

So it's an extraordinary number and
you know, we all know why, populations

are aging, more lives are lengthening,
fewer people entering the workforce,

fertility and people spending
longer in education and so forth.

So no choice.

Organizations have no choice.

They're gonna have to deal with this.

You know, one piece of good news, I
remember there was a very persuasive

piece of OECD research from 2020
I think it was, that said, these

multi-gen workforces are more productive
and have better retention rates.

So I think we need to update that.

Somebody needs to do some more
work on that, but that was at

least encouraging back then.

So I think it's very important.

I'm glad you raised this topic because
I also think there's a lot of confusion

about older workers and about Gen Z.

I wanna tackle both of them briefly
and start with the older workers.

On the one hand, what do we
know about older workers?

What we know is that what they
want as they age can change.

It's not the same as other age groups.

Around fifty-five-ish the importance
of good compensation, which from

most cohorts, genders, countries, is
the number one job criterion starts,

to fade, other things rise up.

Interesting work becomes very important,
autonomy becomes important, and by

the time you get to sixty, actually
interesting work has become the number one

most important thing for these workers.

So the desire for autonomy shows
up as a way of controlling hours.

People want to do stair steps down from
full employment to full retirement,

but again, most firms just are not
offering that kind of solution.

There's also confusion about Gen Z.

I get this question all the time.

What are we gonna do about Gen Z?

It's so difficult.

It's so different from everybody else.

It's so hard.

And I think that framing
is very misleading.

Gen Z are not all one thing.

Yes, there are some overlays, no
doubt, as there are for Millennials

as there are for Gen X. There are
some Gen Z who wanna change the world.

Some Gen Z who wanna just have
some stretching milestones

set and then achieve them.

Some Gen Z who want to just have lots
of variety, change jobs all the time.

Some Gen Z, who the job is just a job.

It's a means to an end of something
that happens outside work.

So it would be a terrible mistake
to assume that we have to be tempted

to, to say that Gen Z are all alike.

So the path to come to your multi-gen
question, the path or high functioning,

multi-generational workforce is, it's
challenging, but it's to create jobs that

are adapted for the different age groups.

Uh, some physical changes, differences
and capabilities and so forth, but

that don't just assume that each
of those age groups wants exactly

the same thing because they don't.

Neither the older workers all want
the same thing, nor the Millennials

all want the same thing, nor the
Gen Z all want the same thing.

So success for me is design roles suited
for workers at each life stage that still

recognize the intrinsic motivations of
each individual, rather than just assumed

and more packaged into one cohort.

Matt Abrahams: I'm sensing a theme
among your responses, which is a really

understanding and appreciating motivation
of workers in general, but then looking

generationally and understanding how
that actually helps us to think about the

programs we need to design and the ways
we need to assess success in those roles.

So I like thinking about motivation
in communication is critical.

What motivates the audience,
what motivates your

workers, what motivates you?

And I really appreciate how you
are highlighting the value that

has for some of the challenges that
we are facing in the workplace.

I wanna switch now to the book you wrote.

I first came across the idea of archetypes
when I studied Carl Jung back in college.

Your new book is called
The Archetype Effect.

Can you tell us what you mean by
archetype and what are the six

types that you have identified?

James Root: I felt strongly that we
needed something that recognized the

importance of motivations because they
often get lost in the shuffle when

we're talking about tasks and jobs
and skills, all of which are critical.

Tasks, and jobs and skills are
critical, but motivations, in

my view, are also critical.

We needed something simple, some
language that we could use with our

firms to talk about current jobs,
future choices and career paths.

So it had to be data driven.

We went out, we talked to almost
fifty thousand people in the

world, nineteen countries.

Men, women, high income, low income,
highly educated, not very educated,

urban, rural, all types of jobs.

It was an absolute
privilege to listen to them.

Tell us about what motivates them.

And we had all this data and at one
point it was quite concerning that it

would be hard to find patterns because
people are very personal about this.

Individual in their own influences.

But yeah, the patterns appeared and
resolved themselves into six archetypes.

So let me quickly bang through the six
and hopefully people listening can go

and take the little quiz that's on the
website and find out what they are.

The first we call the giver, and
this is, in simple terms, it's

the person who finds motivation
at work by helping others thrive.

So work is service for them.

They're not particularly
motivated by money.

Very empathetic typically.

So strong team spirit, very much care
about relationships at work, but their

mojo is, I wanna help other people shine.

The operator.

By the way, this is the biggest cohort.

It's twenty-four percent of
the world's work population.

The operators are not looking for
meaning, self-worth, or purpose at work.

Work as a means to an end.

They're not particularly
motivated by status.

They don't wanna stand out at work in
particular, not risk takers at all.

They wanna do a good job, but they
like stability and predictability, and

at the same time, very team oriented.

So often the backbone of your teams.

Artisans, which are about seventeen
percent of the working population.

They wanna do work that fascinates
them and inspires them, and

they wanna keep practicing.

I always think about sushi chefs
when I think about artisans,

I can't get it outta my head.

So this idea that I'm gonna go and just
keep trying to get better every day.

Very high quality standards,
pursuing mastery basically.

And they enjoy their expertise being
of value, but they don't want to, don't

send me any forms from HR to fill in
because I just don't wanna do that stuff.

We're not particularly focused on
the camaraderie aspects of work

that's important to some of these
other archetypes, so leave me

alone to get on with what I do best
and I'll be very valuable to you.

Explorers, they just value freedom
to do new things all the time, and

they will make incredible trade offs.

They'll trade off money, they'll trade
off status and titles for the chance

to continue to try new things in life.

And a very pragmatic approach to
their own development, they only

skill up as far as they think they're
gonna need in the current job.

And work is not a provider of
a sense of identity for them.

The last two, the strivers want to
make something of themselves at work.

They want to be motivated by success.

They value status.

They value the milestones
and the recognitions.

Sometimes the compensation that
goes with those recognitions, not

risk takers, they forward plan.

They get a lot done, and they're
often willing to tolerate less

variety, so long as it's in the
service of their longer term goals.

And then the last and smallest cohort,
we call them the pioneers, only ten

percent of the workforce, they're on a
mission to change the world in some way.

They form these very strong views about
how things should be and try to sort of

bend the will of the organization and the
people around 'em against that vision.

Sort of a move fast, break things idea,
perhaps, is the way I would simplify that.

But these archetypes, unlike some
of the other systems, they're

not a test, they're an assistant.

The idea is kind of a shorthand guide to
help you understand more about who you

are at work, why you hate your job, why
you love your job, why you thrive, why you

don't thrive, and to get a deeper insight
into, you know, sources of fulfillment.

And they also can turn a traditional
kind of career dialogue, which is top

down, the firm tells you, these are
the skills we think you should develop

next, into a two-way discussion, which
says, this is, I've got these skills

and, but I'm motivated about this.

I'd like to change, I'd like to
do this, I'd like to try that.

It can change the dialogue between
employer and employee in ways

that I hope are very healthy.

Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate
you articulating the six archetypes

as you've identified them.

I see utility here in many ways.

From an organization's point of
view, as you said, it can help you

build career plans for people and
help have a conversation that is

enriching rather than dogmatic.

It also causes an organization and leaders
in that organization to think about

what kind of blend and mix do I want.

I don't want just all of one category.

So diversity of approaches
certainly matters.

And then from an individual's point
of view, it's very powerful to think

about and reflect on what motivates
me and what brings me fulfillment.

And having categories can help
put us on a path to see what it

is that's really important to us.

And I assume it can help us understand
how and why we might gravitate

towards certain people versus others.

When I reflect on the definitions you gave
in certain phases of my life, I feel like

I was one archetype and as I have matured
and experienced things, I've changed.

Is this something we
can exert agency over?

Is this like a personality trait?

What, what have you found in terms of
our sense of agency in all of this?

James Root: Yes.

Such a good question.

So I have found some people just
are who they are at work their

entire career, and that's fine.

Good for them.

Bravo.

The motivation does not change
even deep into their late

fifties into their sixties.

Others, and I would probably
say more, have an evolution.

And the typical journey, I'm not saying
it's happened to you or to me, but the

typical journey that the data reveals is
that pioneers and strivers, when young,

become artisans and givers as they age.

And if you go back and think
about the definitions that

I gave, I won't redo them.

It's intuitive.

Artisans, perhaps I wanna be left
alone a little bit more to do

things I'm very interested in.

And givers, I want to give back.

I wanna mentor, I want to coach,
I want to be able to pay it back

as I get deeper into my career.

But I wanna answer your question head
on because while those two things are

happening, I don't think we should
actively try to change our archetype.

I think it can happen to us because
of circumstance or conditions or

current roles, or just our own
personalities and characters evolving.

But I think become aware of what you
are now and become aware of what the

critical talent around you is, and when
that happens, usually two things emerge.

The two questions that emerge
are, why do I feel what I

feel about aspects of my work?

And why do I feel, to your point,
why do I feel what I feel about

certain other people at work?

And what I have come to believe just from
thinking about this a lot and talking

to many firms is that most firms have
unconsciously built their talent systems

around one archetype, and it may reach
back to the founders, it may reach back to

some seminal moment in the firm's history.

Or it may just be that those sort of
norm assumptions that I referenced

at the beginning of our conversation,
that everyone's just trying to

plot up the ladder, in other words,
everyone's a striver, are what embody

the talent systems that we've built.

And think about your own organization,
which is the archetype that

talent management is favoring.

Who's getting promoted?

Who are the people that we're putting
in front of the organization to say, be

like her, be like him, subconsciously.

And then go, okay, now what about all
the people who are not that archetype?

How does it feel for them?

I find this, when I get into
this conversation at various

firms, it's a little bit of a jaw
dropping moment for people 'cause

they haven't considered that.

They've done the very best they can
to design the system and fairness

and equality and all the rest of it.

But they haven't thought about the fact
that person just doesn't care about the

things that we're rewarding that much.

That giver wants to be recognized and
rewarded for being a culture carrier

and helping other people thrive.

Not being in the limelight themselves, but
we don't recognize that person doing that.

So I think, don't try to
change, but change can happen

and welcome it if it arrives.

Matt Abrahams: I am struck by
this notion of there are pathways

that archetypes tend to follow
over time, and that's interesting.

As you advocated, we might not want to
actively try to change ours, just see

how things unfold and what feels right.

But it's interesting to me that there
are different paths that tend to

occur, and it seems to me that as we
are looking for mentorship and growth

in our careers, that if we are to
understand that, hey, somebody who

starts out as a striver, perhaps earlier
in their career, knowing that I might

land somewhere else, in a different
archetype, searching it out, mentors,

tools, advice and guidance, that can
lead me there might be very beneficial.

So I think that not only does this help
us as an individual, but it might be

interesting for organizations to think
about leveraging what you've learned

about archetypes in terms of how they
help people go through their careers.

James Root: I couldn't agree
more with what you just said.

Matt Abrahams: Before we end, I'd
like to ask you three questions.

One I create just for you, and the
other two are similar to everyone

I've interviewed across the show.

Are you up for this?

James Root: Definitely.

Matt Abrahams: One of the things I
found really interesting about your

background is that you've lived
and worked in numerous countries.

What advice do you have for people working
in cultures other than their own that will

help them be more effective in their work?

James Root: A few things.

Find a mentor or a coach as
soon as you can after you

land, or actually even before.

And spend a lot of time with them.

Read everything you can about
the culture you're coming to.

For at least the first year in the
new country do not say, when we

did this in my old country, it was
like this, because nobody cares.

It's humbling working in other cultures.

So it shows you there are dozens
of ways to lead teams and run

meetings and define success.

So just be quiet and listen for a while.

You gotta adapt how you ask
for input as well, because

there are some flat cultures.

The power distance is a certain
number and open dialogue works, but

there are others where it does not
work in hierarchical structures, so

don't compute silence with agreement.

Matt Abrahams: This notion of looking
outside yourself for some helping guidance

makes a lot of sense, being observant,
appreciating that it is different and it's

going to be different, and that's okay.

Question number two, who is a
communicator that you admire and why?

James Root: Christopher Hitchens.

He was a British American author,
journalist, wrote books about culture

and politics and religion and literature.

Died horribly young,
more than a decade ago.

If you want a sample type in Christopher
Hitchens, University of Toronto,

free speech 2006 into YouTube.

He had this ability in written work,
particularly in spoken, just to kinda

marshal quotations and arguments with
facts and searing intellectual honesty

into this warm blanket of perfect English.

Matt Abrahams: I will absolutely look into
that and appreciate anybody who can be

that eloquent and also that informative.

Final question for you.

What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

James Root: Audience analysis.

Got to do that first.

Who are you talking to?

What do they already know?

Et cetera, et cetera.

Second is, you must have
something interesting to say.

Say it precisely, say it briefly with
one or two arrestingly, memorable words

or phrases that you'd like the audience
to remember when they get home at night.

Third, I think be entertaining.

Don't tell jokes, but relatable stories,
analogies, metaphors, things that go just

beyond sharing the facts and the opinions.

That feels important.

Oh, I got, sorry.

I'm gonna grab one more.

I know you said three.

If you have to use slides.

Make them very few, mostly pictures.

Matt Abrahams: Amen to that last point.

I usually penalize people for
adding a fourth, but that is so

important that I'm gonna not only
echo it, I'm gonna reward it.

So know your audience, make sure you're
providing value that's memorable, and

then also engage your audience to help.

Well, James, you have been
very engaging yourself.

You've given us an insight into ourselves
and into how potential organizations can

help us all be more successful at work.

And you've helped us better understand
what the future of work might look like.

Thank you for your time and
thank you for your insights.

James Root: Thank you so much, Matt.

Very much enjoyed the
conversation with you.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

To learn more about intergenerational
work, please listen to episode

167 with Bob McCann and to better
understand motivation, check out

episode 104 with Katy Milkman.

This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

With special thanks to
Podium Podcast Company.

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