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Regenerative by Design Podcast where we get to the root of health, climate, economics and food. Host, Joni Kindwall-Moore, is an RN, an Ethnobotanist and the founder of Snacktivist Foods. Join us on this journey as we explore the ideas, stories and personalities behind the regenerative food system movement including climate change, human health, economics and food as well as other deeply interconnected topics.
In this podcast, we will be “going there” and leaning into topics that might make you squirm… just a little. We want to challenge ourselves to think outside of the box and to discover the deeper side of our world’s problems so that we can better understand how to solve them.
We aim to unpack some of the most dynamic issues of our day with some of the most inspiring minds who are pushing the boundaries of our current norms and thinking paradigms.
We have seen incredibly disruptive events in the past few years like pandemics, climate events, disasters and war. These often trigger system changes that are reactionary and have short term gains. When these are practiced over the long term, they often have a degenerative effect on health and the environment.
Regenerative design thinking is the opposite, and is an intentional, premeditated process that involves a high level of observation, analysis, creativity, and looking beyond reductionistic principles while embracing systems thinking and additionality to create regenerative solutions.
Regenerative agriculture has become a powerful force for positive transformation and hope in todays world. And no discussion about agriculture is complete without a conversation about food.
Food is the connection between people and the planet so grab a cup of coffee or your favorite running shoes and get ready to take a mental and philosophical leap into the future of food and our planet.
Joanna, hello everyone. You are
listening to the regenerative by
design podcast where we will be
getting to the root of health,
climate, economics and food. I
am your host. Joni quinwell
Moore. Join me on this journey
as we explore the stories of
individuals and organizations
who are working to realign our
food system with both human
health and the health of our
planet. All right, welcome to
the regenerative by design
podcast. I am very thrilled to
have guests, Steve and Dennis
here today. I'm going to let
them introduce themselves to
you, but a little bit of
background. I first heard them
speak at a conference years ago.
I think it was even before
COVID. And I was absolutely
blown away by the way that these
guys think when it comes to
soil, soil chemistry, the health
of the plants and the quality of
the food that comes from those
plants or crops. And I'm just
really thrilled to have them
here today on the regenerative
by design podcast, because if
you're a regular listener, you
know that one of our goals is to
really unpack a lot of the
different diverse subjects that
need to come together to truly
create a food system that is
better for us and better for the
planet. And we can't do any of
that without really
understanding the soil. So
welcome. Steven Dennis, I'm so
happy to have you here.
Thank you, Julie, yeah.
So I'm Dennis. I'm the Director
of Sales and technical support
here at Tanya biologicals.
Basically, my role in the
company is help growers, farmers
understand and utilize the
technology that we bring to the
market today based off of soil
health
programing programs, the
importance program, yeah.
So just, you know, as we talk
about with human health, the
soil is the exact same way. It's
not just one thing. It's a
combination of things that work
together, and how we understand
those, and how we utilize those.
A lot of times in human health,
we go to a lot of different
people to figure out what things
we need to do, whether it's what
foods we need to eat, exercise,
we need to do, stress levels,
all of these things, we bind
them together in order to
become, basically, as we look at
it, a healthy digestive, healthy
immune system. The soil health
is the same way. So I help
growers understand that.
Yep, my name is Steve. My name
is Steve Becker. I am the Chief
Science Officer Tainio
biologicals. I work a lot with
the microbes, so I guess a
little bit of background on
Tainio, founded in 1985 by Bruce
Tainio. And he started off as a
plant breeder, plant geneticist,
and he basically got frustrated
trying to develop different seed
lines that were resistance to
pests, and he'd change it. He'd
create one that was resistance,
and then a couple years later,
the pests are right back. So he
after hitting your head against
the wall a few times, and you
know the definition of insanity,
well, how do we get past that?
So okay, so how does a plant
protect itself, its immune
system? What is a plant's immune
system? Trace minerals,
primarily and the balanced
nutrition. How does a plant get
it back in the early, early, mid
80s, he was thinking it was
microbial related. So he started
generating and producing and
growing different species of
they're called plant growth
promoting rhizobacteria. We also
grow plant growth enhancing
fungi, and work with mycorrhizal
fungi as well. So our goal is to
take a bunch of those different
species and tiny we grow them
individually, blend them
individually, so that we can
kind of lean on the functions of
those microbes to help the
farmer access the nutrition
that's already available to help
with stresses that are
associated with the environment,
with the plants is going through
on a daily basis, because that's
how we end up with better
quality yields and better
quality nutrition coming out of
the food health care
plants, you know. And for those
of you who are listening, you
know the work that Bruce did is
so pioneering to where we are
today, in the regenerative
movement, like honestly, in the
in the real thought leadership
of modern regen. Like Bruce's
work is like legacy,
foundational, but because he was
so ahead of his time, I feel
like he he hasn't gotten the
spotlight. And the beautiful
thing about his work is that he
was able to actually create a
company that has created, like,
long, lasting legacy, like you
can still enjoy the fruits of
his ingenuity every day in
working with your team, which is
actually like an incredibly
beautiful lesson and and that
flowed through his late wife,
Tina as well. And it's just a
really beautiful story. And I,
you know, it's, it's fascinating
in talking to like John Kemp,
who's, um, an advisor of mine,
and you know, when he talks
about Bruce's work, it's
literally, with, like,
unbelievable reverence. So for
those of you who are listening
and haven't had a chance to
unpack his work, um, you know,
we really. Have a lot to thank
him for, for where we are today,
and our understanding of soil
health, plant immune system
function, and, like, really
creating crops that are having
superior nutrition and
productivity because of, like,
understanding that beautiful,
intricate relationship that
happens in the rhizosphere. And
when I first heard you guys
talk, I was like, holy cow, I
was an ICU nurse. Still, like,
the first time I heard you guys
speaking, I'm like, damn. These
guys are like, ICU docs, or
like, you know, like, because if
you look at your crop, like a
patient, and you look at this
rhizosphere, like the digestive
tract of the patient, and here I
had just had interdisciplinary
rounds in the ICU, and we're
like, talking about all the
things, I was like, Dang, this
is like interdisciplinary
rounding, but for crops. And
I've always thought that was a
fun analogy.
Jenny, it's funny in our
handbook. And this is clear back
from, you know, mid 80s, early
90s in our handbook. One of the
things that started was a quote,
quote from Bruce, and he used to
talk about farmers in America
and have a greater impact on
human health than all the
doctors or medicines that exist
today. Yeah,
I would have to agree. I think
that that's foundationally true.
And like you say, it all comes,
you know, use we so often talk
about eat healthy, you know, now
I kind of go back to the idea of
what Bruce talks about is what
is eating healthy. I mean, we
have to trace that some of what
your work, that you're doing
right now. We have to trace that
all the way back to the point of
where that seed went into the
ground, and actually, really
before that, of where did that
seed come from. It's all tied
together. It is. It's
that continuum of actions that
create a truly healthy food. And
you know, for too long, I feel
like Americans have always
viewed health and healthy eating
through this super
reductionistic lens. It's like,
it's so binary, like, oh, that's
bad for you. That's good for
you. And never does it actually
talk about, really, where the
food came from.
Like,
you know, can can we make a
better, you know, the the shamed
foods of the world, like, can we
make a better burger and fries?
Well, I mean, interestingly
enough, like the other day, we
made burgers and fries at home,
and it was potatoes from
Schoonover farms in eastern
Washington, 94% reduced
synthetic use, beautiful, higher
fiber. And the beef came from
John and Betty mobs, amazing
regenerative ranchers. And I was
like, Oh my gosh. Like, this is
really cool. Like, you know, we
can do better. And I think what
you guys are doing is helps
provide a lot of scientific
support for that narrative that
is needed.
We go back, Steve and I utilize
the slide a lot that shows
basically the soil, the plant
and the human body. And so often
we start with the idea of, well,
we need to eat better foods. We
need to eat healthier we have to
trace that all the way back to
the soil, and that's what we do
here at manual biologicals. Is
what are the things that we can
do to build soil health based
off of soil structure, water,
holding capability, nutrient
helping capability, building
that plant immune system so that
it's a healthier because all
these when we start to talk
about it directly correlate to
the nutritional value, or the
nutritional density of that food
that comes from that plant that
then goes into the human body.
And that's what Bruce talked
about, I mean, in the mid 80s.
And then it was, you know, 2010
2011 when the idea of
rhizophagy, rhizophagy came
about, and then 2018 we've got
to give credit to Dr White and
his team, Rutgers, working on
elucidating how that system is
functioning and helping people
realize that plants are actually
consuming microbes. I mean, we
think about plants as the
primary producers, but they're
also a consumer, and they are
purposefully consuming these
organisms. And I mean, the main
reason for that, we like to look
at microbes. You think about and
you look at a microscope, some
of the cocoyed ones, they're
little round balls. Some of the
bacillus, they're a rod shape.
They look like pills. They look
like a supplement. So looking at
the analysis of them, yeah, they
do.
It's, I never thought about
that. That's cool. They're
little pills, and that's what
the plant is. I mean literally
eating. You look at the analysis
of those microbes, and in
general, it's approximately a 10
to two, which is NPK, nitrogen,
phosphorus, potassium, a 10, a
two and a two, plus all the
trace minerals. And that's the
side that a lot of conventional
AG is is really falling apart
with, is the focus on NPK. NPK
is absolutely critical for plant
growth. You can't take those
away. But if all you're focusing
on is those, the entire system
falls apart. If you're trying to
build a house. All I need is
wood. That's all I need. No,
it's not going to be a house.
It's not going to be a stable
structure. So utilizing those
organisms as the primary uptake
vacuum from the soil, extracting
nutrition, is what we're seeing,
allowing us to balance the
nutrition in the plant at the
same time significantly reducing
inputs. We've seen reductions
nitrogen is one of the easiest
ones. We've been able to reduce
nitrogen to 1/5 and maintain
same yield, and that's because
we're using the microbes,
through biological nitrogen
fixation, to take the nitrogen
that surrounds us in the
atmosphere, and feed the plant,
just like it's almost like
nature.
And you know, so you ask that
question, is, so why is that
important? Well, we look at the
idea of plants are not plant
roots are not great at getting
nutrition out of the soil, just
like our gut, just like our gut,
we need that biological system
in order to make nutrient
available, as you talked about
on the rise of age cycle. But
when we start to think about
that, how does that impact the
greater environment? So we
reduce the nitrogen, we have
better nutrient uptake. We have
better trace minerals. The plant
has all of those because now it
gets it from the soil, all that
goes into the fruit and into the
human body. So this is how the
system is designed to work. But
then we start to think globally
of, okay, what's the nitrogen
leaching impact on wells, on
waterways, on algae blooms, dead
zones, eutrophication, yep, all
of these things. So now we start
to build that. And then we go
into big deal. And when we talk
about building carbon in the
soil, that's a big one. We're
not burning up carbon. We're
actually storing carbon within
that through dead microbial
biomass, through the plant
debris within that soil, all of
these things, as you say, it's
almost like it was designed to
function this way. It's so
bizarre how it works that way.
And
it's wild to me, like, how, you
know, some of the things you
just mentioned, like carbon
eutrophication. I mean, I don't
think anyone has, at this point,
not heard about the dead zone in
the Gulf of Mexico, and now we
had these crazy hurricanes. And,
you know, everyone feels so
helpless, like it's such a big
problem. But the reality is, is
it starts at such a micro scale
level, and we can be corrected,
like we we're not stuck with
this outcome. And I think that
there's a pervasive narrative
out there that's like, well,
we're stuck with this model.
There's nothing we can do about
it. We're going to hell in a
hand basket. And what you guys
do every day and you help
farmers to achieve is proof that
that model isn't the only way,
like we actually can do it
different. We can still have
super high yielding productivity
at the field without being so
extractive, because you're
working with nature rather than
against it, which is super
powerful.
Or, you know, this
isn't, you know, we go back to
the idea of, prior to this
information and utilizing some
of these tools and the
technology that came out, the
agricultural practice that we
use to feed the world was the
best tool that we had. But now
we're finding that there's
better tools out there, and
they're better, and we're
understanding it, and that's
part of it is, you know,
basically to embrace this and
now carry this forward. That's
what we try and do here. And
even based on the food that we
look at, the things that you're
doing is they're all as as we
say, they're all interconnected.
Bruce used to talk about that,
how everything is
interconnected. Everything you
do. Oh, Butterfly Effect,
yeah, yeah, I guess. Theory,
Yep, yeah.
I mean, all of these things when
we start to think about it, to
me, to us, we get really
excited. Everybody says we kind
of nerd out sometimes on this,
but it's fine, yeah.
I love it when you guys nerd
out, because it's super
important. And I think it was,
you know, honestly, one of the
early sessions I was listening
to you guys, where it also was a
real reinforcement, the plants
are farmers. You know, they're
not just passive and, you know,
we're cultivating them, and then
they, voila, they suddenly
blossom out something we can
eat. It's like plants are
farmers and and they're very
intentional in sacrificing a lot
of their sugar metabolism to
feed that rhizosphere. Like all
of those that that complex
ecosystem that lives in their
root area, they're dedicating a
lot of sugar to feeding those
little critters. And, you know,
I think for a long time, we just
didn't appreciate why that was
so important. Why would, why
would a plant sacrifice a huge
part of their metabolic output
to feed another cluster of
organisms. And I think that
there's so much we can learn
from plants when I think about
our own human health, and we've
had the exact same neglect for
the importance of the gut
microbiome over the last few
decades, just like we kind of
ignored that at the soil level.
And. And I'm grateful for
antibiotics. I mean, I wouldn't
be here today if it weren't for
antibiotics. So I'm not one of
those hardcore hardcore like,
get rid of everything and go
back to 1680 but you know, when
we think about just this
cultural shift of appreciation
around biofilms and microbiomes
that happened after the age of
antibiotics, we just have a lot
of catching up to do because we
didn't appreciate the
externalities. We just didn't
know. And rather than, you know,
villainizing it, what's cool is
now we, we know both, both ways,
and you guys are proving that
there's a lot we can do to move
forward.
You know, you talk about that
root exudates or sugars, and you
know, we they're sugars, but
there's so much more. It's a
communication tool that the
plant uses to communicate with
those organisms within the soil
environment. And you know what's
really cool about that? You
know, Steve talked about Dr
White's research, not only does
that plant recruit those
organisms to take it in in order
to digest them, partially digest
them and get that nutrition from
that but it also will spit them
back into the soil environment
where they do that process all
over again. But as research has
proven now, that not only do
they recruit specific organisms
in order to get the nutrition
like they phosphate solubilizing
bacteria, but then it'll clone
them those protoplasts inside
that root meristem and spit
rather than one out, it'll spit
five out, because it's like, I
need more of them. And so
they're specifically recruiting
them, then cloning them to do a
specific function within that so
environment. And if these guys
aren't there, basically,
sometimes, you know, it's like
your cell phone you don't
answer. There's no voice mail.
There's nowhere for them to come
back later once that call is not
answered, because, let's say the
soil is not healthy, then the
plant goes somewhere else. It
needs food so it may not get
phosphorus. It takes up
something else because it wants
to fill its plate. And there,
you know, our human bodies the
same way. You know, I sometimes
say, if you want a salad, but
you go to an to a 711 and not
that seven elevens are bad, no,
it just they may not have that
salad that you want. So you you
grab something else. Only
vegetable
you might find is like a potato
chip, which is so far from a
vegetable anymore, that it's not
even funny, but, you know, it's
just it is one of those things.
And you know, speaking of that
topic, I actually one of the
things I've been wanting to pick
your brain about forever, and I
was hoping to last week, when we
were all together, is like how
we're seeing this emerging trend
of higher and higher heavy metal
concentrations in food. And this
is something that Colleen
Cavanaugh at zgo foods is really
focused on, and she and I are
working together on a grant to
help drive some diversity in the
Northern Rockies. Really, really
amazing pioneering work that
she's doing. But, you know, from
a root or like, rhizosphere
perspective, I've been really
curious to understand more about
like that whole uptake game and
why we're just seeing in what
little evidence I've seen, I
feel like there's a lot lower
threshold of heavy metal
accumulation in these
regenerative foods that have
been tested compared to their
conventional counterparts. Do
you guys have any insight into
that?
There's several directions we
can take that. I remember
looking back years ago, there
was some work done around our
area on the Hanford Reach. They
were looking at hexavalent
chromium, and they found that by
dumping molasses in, they're
changing that valence, they're
changing that oxidation state of
the Chromium to a less
destructive. And they found that
it was actually Bacillus
necterium. It's changing it so
form of material, form of heavy
metal, matters quite a bit. We
can find and isolate different
organisms that have a capacity
to break down pesticides. Some
of them will hyper accumulate
some of the heavy metals, and
part of it is also, I think the
foods that generally go with a
biological farming approach are
different. One of the things
that we've been looking at and
seeing and I biosolids. Bio
solids are scary. There's so
much stuff that humans eat, and
then when we eat it, it's
concentrated in our feces and
concentrated even more on our
waste treatment facilities.
Taking that material, putting it
back out in the fields is
dangerous Well,
let alone all the other things
that end up in that
micro plastics, which they don't
even test for.
Yeah, so I mean, all of that
ends up concentrated into a
field environment, which then
carries on, not only into the
food and through the plant, but
how does. Affect what we always
go back to, how does that affect
the biological system, and how
do those things disrupt that
diversity of those organisms
within that soil environment?
And if you think about it again,
we always start at the soil and
work up if it does that in the
soil environment, and then it
does it in the plant. What does
it do to the human and that gut
and that environment, because, I
mean, it carries through. We all
we a lot of times, also look at
overall plant health and
nutrition balance and based off
of pH, based off of plant
stresses, all of these things
are going to dictate those heavy
metals that we're talking about
within that soil environment.
For an example, a lot of times
we'll see a root borne disease.
As you see a root borne disease,
and you look at a plant's SAP
analysis, you will immediately
see the aluminum go up in the
plant because of that stress,
environmental stress that is
placed on that plant. So all of
these things are tied together.
So yes, when we look at the
let's say regenerative
agricultural practice, like
Steve talked about, some of the
products that are being used are
more micro food. They enhance
that biological system, rather
than break that biological
system down, and then it's
better for the microbes, better
for nutrition availability,
better for plant health. So we
can start to see a reduction in
some of that. But as we talk
about this, a lot of this comes
down to building overall health
and that digestive system, and
once we have that function in as
designed, we see some of these
problems go away, as long as
we're not throwing things out
there that is making the problem
worse, like we talked about a
lot of times, that's
agricultural inputs, right?
And you mentioned biofilms.
Biofilms are very important.
It's this idea of microbes using
for bacteria, extracellular
polysaccharides. They're gluing
things together. Now there's
research showing that if we are
in environments that has high
levels of sodium, the plants
communicating with the microbes.
It's using actually volatile
organic compounds. The microbes
call it breath. It'll spit out
molecules that talk to the
plant, which upregulates genes
that allow the plant to move
more sodium down to the soil and
out, which then the microbes.
They see that as an issue. They
know it's an issue, so they're
going to bind that material.
They'll bind sodium inside of
their glue. So if you think
about that, it's the EPS is.
It's building that structure.
It's like putting a sleeping bag
on it protects you that then on
the larger scale, so we start
with micro aggregate formation
that happens with those bacteria
gluing together individual soil.
Soil collides clay particles on
the larger scale that we move up
to a rhizoth. The rhizoth is a
completely different environment
than the rest of the soil around
it's just like your house in the
winter. Now, the beauty of that
is the microbes using that
extracellular polysaccharide is
kind of insulation. They can
also accumulate some of those
heavy metals inside of that
material. They can help the
plant move that material
purposefully out. They can up
regulate protected genes. They
can encourage the plant to dump
those they can take those
materials themselves and lock it
up, bind it up. And as long as
those biofilms maintain their
structure, it's locked away it,
I kind of compare it to like
brick and mortar. It's the
mortar. It's what's holding
those stones together. So as
long as we're maintaining that
soil structure and we're not
encouraging its degradation,
we're helping binds in that
material away, so that that's
another side of the heavy metal
thing is, and that's, I think,
part of why we see less uptake
in those plants that are
associated with a healthy
digestive system. Microbes are
helping protect the plant.
Really incredible, honestly,
like, and I feel like, as this
becomes more of a normalized
conversation out there, it just
is very hopeful to people to
think like, okay, we can really,
we can really do a lot to impact
our food system and our in our
health, human health, but also
our health is like part of the
biological ecosystem, ecosystem
health and and it's really a
matter of working with what we
already have and just optimizing
nature and having a more
symbiotic relationship with
nature, rather than this control
conquest mindset of like We must
control nature. You know, we
must control microbes. It's
like, Guys, we're never gonna
win. Like, there's more
microbial cells in my body than
there are my own cells. So,
like, we can never win in that
game, significant odds.
Side of that. I mean, there's
what, 30,000 human genes. Genes.
There's a million microbial
genes. So looking at the cell
side, looking at the gene side,
oh, it's, it's even crazier,
looking at that side of things.
It's just,
you know, you had talked earlier
about antibiotics, and they have
a use. They have a function.
When we need antibiotics are
it's a wonderful tool. They
exist, yeah, you know, I
sometimes when we talk about
overall plant health as we go
down this regenerative path, is
there a time where you may need
a fungicide or a insecticide or
a herbicide in order to as we
build that soil health, you need
to band aid. Every once in a
while, you cut your thumb to get
to get to where we want to be,
you know. And so, yes, do those
two tools have a place in
agriculture? Absolutely, but we
have to understand those tools
and how they affect that
biological community, just like
how an antibiotic affects human
health, you know, a lot of times
you go and now, and they you
take an antibiotic, the first
thing they do is, when you're
off the antibiotic, they say,
eat yogurt, make probiotics, get
that digestive we need to do the
same thing in the soil
environment. You know, Bruce
used to say all of the
fungicides and pesticides and
insecticides in the world have
not reduced insect disease or
weeds. They still exist. And
that's where Bruce's work, you
know, originally came from, is
we're just creating healthier
ones. So let's step away from
that, use that tool when needed.
But let's go to that biological
world in order to get that to
function. I mean, I mean, that's
really when you start to talk
about binding up things that
doesn't want. You know, we see
all the time. When you get on
this regenerative program, and
you go down this biological
Avenue, and you change that
microbial profile within that
soil environment to a you're not
changing in a negative way.
You're changing it in a positive
way based off habitat, habitat
that can support them. You start
to see weed pressure change. It
doesn't mean you get away from
weeds, it just it starts to
change
environment dictates expression
is something that we've been
saying very long time, and
that's associated with weed
pressure, as well as insect and
disease. Insects and disease are
supposed to be there.
Saprophytic fungi are in our
environment, in our soil, to
break down our material. If we
didn't have them, we'd have a
building. The problem is, when
our plants are viewed by nature
as the saprophytic fungi as dead
or dying tissue, it's going to
start eating of that. We see
blossom end rot. We see early
blight, we see late blight.
Those are there as a clean up
through. It's not an accident.
Those are nutritionally devoid.
You can look at Shibo so healthy
crops, and he was looking at
specific foods and how the
digestive system of those
organisms work. Dr Callahan and
Dijkstra that has followed him,
and how these insects are
communicating and targeting in
on unhealthy things. It's not an
accident that we have these
we're creating the environment
that's asking them to be there.
And it's it's the same with
weeds. We see ships and weed
pressures and weed species as we
change that environment, we will
see problems that were severe in
the farm as we start to switch.
And we like to describe it as
you know, succession is
increasing complexity of our
soils, increasing complexity
environment. We don't have those
same pressures, we don't have
those same problems. We have new
problems. We have different
problems, but we're creating an
environment that is more complex
and therefore also more
resilient and less likely to
have a single stressor
completely wipe it out. I mean
bananas. We're losing another
variety of bananas.
And when we talk about that,
when we look at weed pressure,
you know, there's a great book
out when weeds talk, yeah,
because it directly correlates
if
you have a specific weed.
Listen, why it? Yeah, we try and
kill it. But that weed is there
to fix that soil environment, to
accumulate, for an example,
calcium, where we have calcium
tied up in that soil. But roux
used to talk about, not only was
it there to get that nutrition,
but it's also to repair your
soil biologically, because there
are specific biological
communities put out enzymes or
aminic acids that help break
that bond, which makes that
calcium, phosphorus, calcium,
iron, whatever that might be
available to the plant. So not
only are those there to repair
the soil, a lot of times we go
in and wipe them out because we
see them as bad, and that's
where we go into that succession
of they're there for a reason.
So if we heal our soil, suddenly
this weeds no longer there.
We've went to the next level of
a different
that's not a bad thing. No,
it's, it's, it's showing
progress, and that's what we
want to see. We want to see
progress with our soils.
Progress. Dog press, we don't
want to be backsliding. No, it's
so true, especially with
antibiotic resistant bacteriums.
Just like in the fields, we have
these herbicide resistant weeds.
I mean, we're in the era of,
like, the pushback from nature,
where they're like, You know
what? We have complex genetics.
We can outsmart this. And no
matter what you throw at us,
we're going to come back
stronger. And to me, that is
like the ultimate wake up call
to go, Okay, this is not working
the way that we thought in the
long term. Like, where do we
start, on a much smaller level,
to just create an environment
that's not as beneficial for
that weed? I work with a lot of
farmers right now up in northern
Montana, and a lot of them are
legacy organic, and boy, their
weed pressure from Canadian
thistle and whatnot, is just
really, really tough. And so
I've been trying to think like,
you know, as somebody who's
trying to do some value chain
creation at a community level,
you know, we need to support
them with agronomy. We need to
support them with biological
amendments to really work on
that, so that way they're
succeeding. And it's been a real
wake up call to me to because
I'm so used to working with a
lot of regenerative farmers out
here in the Inland Northwest and
and it's a very different
system. And so, like, I would
love for you guys even to just
kind of talk about, like, say I
were to get you in contact with
one of these farmers in Montana
we're working with who's really
battling these Canadian
thistles. They've been organic
for a couple of decades, so a
lot of tillage, you know, to
help with Reed weed reduction.
Like, how would you guys work
with a farmer like that? Like,
how does that work? When, when I
call you up and go, hey guys
help.
We've got to touch a little bit
on leaf extract or SAP analysis,
not an indicator.
And that's what I was going to
say, is it all starts. We say
this all the time. Tests. Don't
guess. So we need to test our
soil. I mean, for example, in
human health, if you walked in
the doctor and he looks at and
he goes, Well, you know, I think
you need antibiotics and we need
to do surgery. No, they're gonna
do a blood test. They're gonna
look at that's what we have to
do in agriculture. We have to
pull a soil analysis. We have to
have a plant SAP analysis. We
have tools now, biomass, for
example, DNA sequence, seen
what, biology and what,
basically function is happening
within that soil environment. So
we utilize all these tools, and
then we look at crop, we look at
rotation, we look at tillage,
for an example, agricultural
practices, and then agricultural
inputs, and all of those things
is we kind of look at them
together, and then we start to
pick away at I call the low
hanging fruit. Okay, let's try
and do this different. This
different and this different,
because the reason your thistle
is there is because of organic
matter, maybe low compaction,
low calcium availability.
There's a direct correlation to
weed species and why they're
there. So then we take a look at
based off of, I mean, do we have
an excess? Do we have high mag
soil so we're buying enough
calcium, we don't have good
water penetrance? I mean, I
could go down eight different
ways of why is that there? But
once we start to identify some
of these things, we can now
apply tools that's available to
that organic farmer based off of
biological, based off of
nutrition, based off of
agricultural practices that
again, now thistle is no longer
there, but then we go into well,
what is the next thing? And
generally, the next weed variety
that he may have is not going to
be as detrimental to what he's
trying to do in agriculture.
Because when we say, talk about
primary succession, moving
forward, going from rock to, you
know, basically the rainforest
in agriculture, we're supposed
to continue to move forward in
soil health. We're moving
backwards. We're moving back to
rock based on soil health, we
need to just reverse that. And a
lot of it is comes down to what
we do. And so often I talk about
excesses cause a greater
deficiency or a greater problem
than a deficiency. So meaning,
if we have too much of one thing
in the soil environment, we
don't know that, and we add more
of that, we've created
efficiency of everything else
because of an excess. And so a
lot of
times, one more time, it's so
important, I think that this is
something that we get wrong so
often in so many parts of our
lives, not just in the field.
If you look at the law, minimum,
meaning your greatest limiting
factor is a deficiency. That's
true, but what I look at there
is that deficiency being caused
by an excess of something else
we have. Yeah, everything in
moderation. When we come to
human health, it doesn't mean
it's bad, as long as it's
utilized in moderation, and the
only way we know that is to
understand based off of our
soil. Soil and our plant and our
plant SAP analysis of what does
that plant need? And I guess to
explain that is, you can have a
soil analysis, and you can be
perfectly balanced on Calcium,
Potassium, Magnesium, Nitrogen,
they're all perfectly balanced
in the soil. And then you pull a
plant SAP analysis and the plant
SAP says, I'm not getting any
calcium. That's a gut problem.
It's a gut problem. It's a gut
resistive system. So now, what
biology can help him to help
make that calcium available, or
a phosphorus deficiency? What
can we utilize? What tools do we
have in our toolbox now to help
with that deficiency? Because if
we just have one test and we
don't have the other we never
know that we're expressing a
deficiency. So, you know, in a
lot of cases, if we look at our
soil and it says, Well, I'm
deficient on this mineral, and
so I dump a bunch of it out, but
the plants telling me, whoa,
whoa, I have way too much of
this. Stop doing that. Those are
the those. Those are the
excesses that create the
deficiencies now suddenly go
ahead. Well,
I just didn't say the manganese
example Colorado, where we've
seen a soil we start off with
plants that are expressing a
deficiency. We assume it's one
type of deficiency. It looks
like it's specific deficiency.
We didn't know. We had a pretty
strong idea of what it was going
to be, but until we did that
analysis, we didn't know for
sure. So it looked like an iron
deficiency. In reality, it was a
manganese deficiency. We then
look at the soil, and the
manganese levels in our soil
were extremely low. So the first
approach is, well, let's dump a
whole bunch on it. It didn't do
much. It wasn't until we really
started heavily applying biology
and bio stimulants we had to get
that digestive system
functioning. As soon as we did
that those deficiencies
disappeared. And this is after.
We're not going to name names,
but some of the local Extension
agents have come out, looked at
the trees and said they're done.
You can't fix it once this
problem is there. It's done. Two
years later, they're healthy.
They're happy. It we have the
capacity to change these systems
in a relatively short time
frame. Some of that depends on
the location you're at, your
environmental conditions,
exactly. I mean our Pacific
Northwest Area, with some of our
growers that get five or six
inches of rain, that's going to
be a different time scale of
healing the soil than if we go
to the Midwest, where we've got
3040, inches in timely manner.
They get it all summer. It's got
to be focused on, what do you
have in your area, keeping it
local. I mean, keeping it local
on food, but also keeping it
local on how that food is
generated matters. Yeah,
that's a super important point.
Is that not all systems are
created equal, and it's
interesting talking to folks
from other parts of the world,
and they're like, Wait, some of
the farmers you work with get
seven inches of rain a year. And
I'm like, Yes, and, you know,
and then they start to
understand, like, what they're
up against when it comes to soil
health. Because with that desert
condition that, you know, it's
almost like a crypto biotic
crust scenario, you know, where
it's like, it's very delicate
because it's so dry and it's
under so much stress from UV for
so many days of sun in the
summer and winter as well.
And when we basically think
about biology, needs the same
thing we need. It needs food,
water, oxygen, shell. It needs
all those
living so it's alive.
And yeah, that's what we have to
look at when we think of our
soil is a living system. And,
you know, I, yeah, I A lot of
times I look at you had
mentioned you basically light
damaging those so now they're in
their home, and Dr Hatfield
gives an example of a hurricane
just comes through. A tornado
comes through and wipes out your
home. Now you're exposed to
everything in that environment.
You're very vulnerable, and
that's what happens with some of
the agricultural practices that
we do, is we go in and we till
that soil, and we've just
disrupted their environment that
they tried to create as talk the
rhizomes, the things they
created to protect themselves
and we destroy them, is that
bad? Maybe not, as long as we
understand that tillage
sometimes has to be used in
agriculture. I give the example,
we always say, Well, no, tills
the best, don't disrupt the
soil. How do you get peanuts?
How do you get potatoes? How do
you get carrots out of the
ground without disrupting the
so, I mean, I guess we create a
potato tree.
We talked about it. Yeah, it's
got to be a challenge.
That would be really
fascinating. Yeah, yeah. And
what's interesting is, like, I
feel like it's so easy to get so
fixated on one practice,
philosophy or theology, really,
and and then having Dr Christine
Jones here last summer speaking
to a lot of our farmers and her
feelings of. About the risk
versus benefits equation, not
having to do with tillage versus
herbicide use. And I know that
it really fundamentally changed
the way a lot of folks are
thinking about this, not just in
our region, but, you know, even
like, you know, talking to John
and Rick Clark and those guys,
because they also had some time
with her this summer as well.
And it was foundationally a
shift in thinking, but if we
always bring it back to risk
versus benefits equation context
which is local and just being
reasonable and using that kind
of minimalizing mentality of
like, more is not always better.
It's pretty incredible where we
can land,
sometimes applying iron, and
that doesn't mean nutrition
iron, applying equipment, iron
to your soil sometimes is one of
the greatest benefits you can
receive, even in a no till
environment. So we can't, as you
say, we can't go just this is
the only way we can do it. And I
have growers in Canada that were
no till they were having
significant problems. They went
in and ripped their soil. They
injected biology at eight inches
and two inches, because eight
inches was where their action
layer was in order to break that
up to get that function back in.
And it was a huge shift for them
based off of soil health and
nutrient availability. I mean,
it was game changing gas
exchange. I
mean, soil has to breathe. The
microbes have to breathe. 1/32
of an inch of crust, all
respiration shuts down. So if
you see a soil that has crust,
it's not breathing. If we have a
bare soil in the summer, and
it's getting above 100 110
degrees, 120 130 degrees, at
around 103 105 protein salads
denature. They fall apart. So
those systems are now in a heat
shock environment. It takes
extra energy. They have to
protect themselves. They shut
down. So we're losing diversity.
We've got to think about this.
We're carbon farmers, and we've
got to be focusing on, how can
we maximize our carbon as a
resource, as a protective tool?
And that goes right into, you
know, climate resiliency. We're
the more carbon we can put in
soil, the more benefit we can
see associated with that, the
better we can have our plants,
photosynthesize, create those
exudates, and like you're
mentioning, 30% of all that
sugar right down and out, and
that's to create that
environment. And we're finding
that it's called the microbial
carbon pump, where these
microbes are purposely taking
that material, and they're
creating humus. They're creating
soil. And that's what we need to
have happen, because, like
Dennis was saying, that's how we
create that structure. That's
how we create the homes and the
houses, and that's the only way
we're going to have this soil
maintain the little bit of
moisture we get in our area, or
the lots of moisture that we get
in other areas. Having those
open floor spaces allows for
better infiltration, allows for
better storage capacity, as well
as better gas exchange. It's,
it's not one thing, it's all of
these things that come together
approach.
And I think that's just what I
love so much about the way you
guys approach your work. And you
know, tanio is a is a company in
general. So, you know, as we
wrap this up. I mean, I love
talking to the two. We could do
this all day long, but we are
going, we'll just have to do a
part two, and we'll unpack some
more of this. But how can people
get in touch with you? I know
people are going to listen to
this. They're going to want to
follow your your work. Maybe
they're a farmer, and they're
like, Hey, how can you guys help
me? What? Where would you tell
people to go to to get in touch
with you.
Best thing to do, I guess, would
go, yeah, info@cameo.com
would be the best thing. It's a
good email. Or just go to our
website, check us out. Yeah,
we're not very good at plugging
or we never talk about products.
Plug
your plug yourself. Because I
guarantee it, somebody just
listened to this, and it may be
somebody who's been, you know,
driving equipment all day long,
and they're a farmer, and
they're like, oh my gosh, this
is what I've been looking for.
So where do they go to find you?
What is that website?
T, A, I, N, i, o.com, yep, that
is easy, awesome.
Or email. It's at
info@tanio.com, that would be
the best thing. And then, you
know, Jenny in our office,
whoever gets that information,
will make sure Steve and I get
it. You know, I always laugh,
because I'm never in the office.
I'm always out, you know,
talking to growers at shows,
doing those types of things. So
they will make sure we get the
information, and we, you know,
anybody that wants more
information on this, that's part
of what we do. Also, as Steve
talked about, is we want to
share basically Bruce's, what I
would say, vision of what he
had, of bait, you know, better
food, better agriculture, better
environment, all of. Those types
of things. That's why pineal was
originally developed, and that's
what we want to put forward. So
if anybody has questions, we be
more than happy to answer them
based off of, I guess, soil
health. Yeah, I don't have the
winning Powerball numbers, but I
can talk soil Well,
I think we're coming pretty darn
close here. So thanks so much
you guys for joining, and it's
been really fun. And I really, I
bet if Bruce could listen to
this podcast, he'd be pretty
darn proud. So let's, let's just
keep growing this movement
together, and it's a pleasure to
work with both of you. Thanks
for joining, and for you out
there listening right now. If
you like this, please share it
with your friends, and also, if
you're listening on edible
podcasts, you can leave a
review. So we're always looking
to grow our audience and get
this message out in front of
more people, so that way we
really can get behind changing
to our world and making it a
better one for our kids and
grandkids and future
generations. So thanks so much
for listening, and have a great
day. Thanks, Johnny.
Thanks, John,
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