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Welcome to The Foster Friendly Podcast. We’re bringing foster care closer to home by sharing stories from the front lines. We're talking with former foster youth, foster parents and others who are finding unique and powerful ways to dramatically improve the experiences and outcomes for kids in foster care.
The Foster Friendly podcast is brought to you by America’s Kids Belong, a nonprofit that helps kids in foster care find belonging in both family and community.
Travis (00:02.263)
Welcome to the Foster Friendly podcast. I'm your host Travis Vongesnes joined by my co-host Courtney Williams I'm really excited today to have our guests on who are personal friends of mine Danny and Ashley Smith They live in Clinton, South Carolina and have two kids one married and one in college They've been house parents for kids in foster care at two residential group homes for eight years Danny has served in various leadership roles managing foster care programs at different organizations for seven years
Together they've been part of the Strengthening Families program in their community, which teaches family and parenting skills. Danny currently leads a grief support group for teens. By day, Danny and Ashley are real estate agents, and by night, they're in a local band with some friends called Wasp Her Jaws. Really excited to have you guys on today.
Danny And Ashley (00:52.242)
Thank you for having us. thanks so much. Good to be here.
Courtney (00:53.902)
Yeah.
Travis (00:54.957)
Yeah. So before we get into more of the topic around foster care and your story and kind of insights on, you know, just parenting and encouragement to foster parents, we got to talk Wasp her jaws, the band. So bring us into that a little bit about what the band is like and the cool avid brother story.
Danny And Ashley (01:13.812)
All right. Yeah. Well, I think it was around COVID. I'd been writing songs. I played music for quite a while, but I just had these songs that I had written and was coming up with. And I called one of my friends and said, hey, come over and let's mess with these songs. And he got really into it. We enjoyed playing it. And then I called my buddy Everett and was like, hey, you want to play bass in a band? He said, sure. So before you know it, we had gotten together. And our goal was just to, and Ashley sings with us too. Sorry, I left you out. It's OK.
Courtney (01:42.744)
Yeah.
Danny And Ashley (01:45.032)
But before you know it, we had like 10 songs ready to go and we're like, let's record them and we'll just put out an album and share it with family and friends and put it on Spotify or whatever. And so we did that. We recorded it in our living room. we've both been A-Vet Brothers fans for a long time. We used to go see them live all the time. And I'm a big John Prine fan, but he passed away from COVID. He was one of the first high profile deaths. I planned when we got our album done to send it to him.
After he passed away, I said, well, I'm going to send it to Scott Avet from the Avet Brothers. I really like his songwriting. So I sent it to him. And then like a week later, I'm getting ready to go to bed. I'm scrolling Instagram and I see a picture of our album on Instagram. And there's just like this moment of confusion. Like, what, why am I, what is this? And I saw that I look at it I'm like, what the heck? Like, I'm like, Ashley, look at this.
He shared it on his Instagram, a picture of it. I don't know if it's a link to like the Apple Music version and had and shared the caption, give this album some love and it will love you back. So I never heard from him. I didn't know that was going to happen. I have never talked to him since, but just the fact that he got it and listened to it and said, this is good enough. I'll share with my followers. That was like, that was more than we ever expected from the music. and you know, that's enough.
Travis (02:57.505)
Ahem.
Courtney (03:07.202)
What a fun shout out, yeah.
Travis (03:07.521)
That's awesome. Yeah, and describe the music, what kind of, you know, the music.
Danny And Ashley (03:12.62)
Yeah. I mean, I was just hoping my mom would like it, but for Scott Ebbett to like it, that was huge. But I call it in-law country, which is kind of the opposite of outlaw country, because I feel like there's a lot of people out there trying to be coal miners and like singing about whiskey. And I'm like, I can't do that. I don't want to do that. it's just kind of like, I call it like regular music for regular people.
Courtney (03:16.108)
You
Courtney (03:34.7)
Ha ha.
Danny And Ashley (03:41.416)
middle-aged people making music. It's like Americana style, piano, guitar, little drums and bass. I think it's probably Americana. We have a very low threshold for success, obviously. If that made our year, it really did. Like Danny said, no one asked a bunch of 40-somethings to start a band and be cool or whatever. The fact that you're talking about it on a podcast right now, it's still like, this is really nothing. I know, someone cares.
Travis (03:51.299)
Yeah.
Courtney (03:55.265)
Yeah.
Travis (04:02.369)
It's super cool.
Courtney (04:07.192)
Yeah.
Travis (04:07.689)
Hey, what? Well, yeah, well, I've gotten to see you guys play and I love the albums. We'll have a link for it in the show notes, too. So anyway, I that was a fun little intro to who you guys are to.
Courtney (04:11.864)
Yeah.
Courtney (04:20.226)
Yeah, Travis is a big fan. He shares songs by you guys and stuff. yeah. Yeah.
Travis (04:22.679)
Yeah. See, just see shared with Courtney. So there you go.
Danny And Ashley (04:24.084)
Come on.
Thank you, Travis. thanks. Hopefully you can listen sometime, Korti. thank you.
Travis (04:28.377)
There we are.
Courtney (04:30.858)
I have listened. love it. Yeah. It's very much our style. yeah. Okay. Well, let's transition a little bit into why you're on the podcast, talking a little bit more foster care, bring us into your journey of engaging in foster care and what led you to getting involved as house parents for eight years together as a couple and kind of what that looked like.
Travis (04:32.557)
Ha ha.
Danny And Ashley (04:52.094)
Well, we started in foster care, really residential group care, right after Danny graduated college. And it was very practical at that point. You know, we, our friend had gone up to this place called Mooseheart, which is a really large, I don't even know how many kids they have. was 300. It was a lot of kids. Yeah. So up in Illinois, which is where I'm from. And so we got into that. had a young son. was about 18 months when we got started. He's now 22 years old. But it was something.
that we could do together. And so we could both work there. We could, you know, do it together and have Jack with us. And so it really, it was a, it was a great, you know, thing for us at the time. But we did not, we didn't feel like this calling like we've got to go help kids in foster care. That's not how it started. Not Not at first. It quickly turned into that. Yeah. We just, I don't even think we knew it was an option. We just didn't know about it. And it was just like, here's a job we can do together and maybe save some money.
and it turned into something more. Yeah. So we were at Mooseheart for about three years. And then we had some friends from other friends from college go down to Clinton, South Carolina, which is where we live now, to work at a place called Thornwell Home for Children. And so we went and visited them, had an impromptu interview, and then we were there for another, I think we were family teachers there for five. Yeah, I think it was longer. But yeah, I think it was like seven years. anyway, it was
At that point, we knew it was a calling. We knew that the Lord had wanted us there and was using us to love the kids who are in need.
Travis (06:32.313)
Very cool.
Courtney (06:32.33)
Yeah. And it's cool to hear like starts out as it's just a job opportunity, something you need to do to make ends meet and then turning into more of a passion. That's awesome. So through that journey, at one point you had a paradigm shift in your understanding of kids with big behaviors and what that looked like, your approach to them and handling those behaviors. I know for me, that was kind of the same story. We started in foster care, did not have a lot of training. And then we're like, we quickly realized we need someone else. This is not working.
Danny And Ashley (06:40.968)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Travis (07:01.689)
Ha
Courtney (07:02.158)
So kind of share that journey of your guys's paradigm shift and what it looked like.
Danny And Ashley (07:06.824)
Well, we, got a lot of training at Mooseheart. did a really good job of training us before we ever started. the, difference between being in the home, working with kids and training is just, it's so vast. And we were, we were young. we just had so much to learn. And nothing can really prepare you for like what you, what you face. No amount of role playing or. Yeah.
Travis (07:25.443)
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's right.
Danny And Ashley (07:30.42)
But they, you know, they did a good job of training and they had someone there supporting us. And when things got rough, we had people we could call. So it was a good system. But I think the paradigm shift came slowly. wasn't like a, it wasn't something that just like all of a sudden everything changed and all of a sudden we were great with kids. We, we dealt with some really rough behaviors early on. And I think our response to that early on, I mean, things like even where Ashley was pregnant at the time and we had a kid that would
threatened to kick her in the stomach and hurt the baby and things. you know, when you're, especially when you're young and you're hearing things like that, you're like, I can't work with this kid. Like somebody's going to have to do something. And, um, we, we got some really good consultation and training on how not to take things personally, how not to create targets. So like one big thing I learned was if, if a kid is insulting Ashley, I don't go to them and say, you're not going to talk to my wife that way.
Because every time they get mad, they know Mr. Danny gets mad if I insult Ashley. So now it's like Ashley being insulted all the time. I mean, you just learn over the years that these kids are going to grow up and it's not up to you to change everything overnight. not a reflection. It wasn't a reflection of our work if we went out somewhere and they were misbehaving or if they didn't go to bed when we told them to. I think it's not as...
Travis (08:29.433)
Duff.
Travis (08:36.205)
Right? Yeah.
Danny And Ashley (08:57.106)
hands off approach, but it's more of just like, you just kind of have to roll with what's going on. That was my biggest paradigm shift.
Courtney (09:06.538)
It's yeah, it's actually interesting you said that as an example, because I my very first year teaching young pregnant and I did have a kid kick my stomach and say, I hope your baby dies. And looking back now, I remember very clearly how I responded and the meeting that I made sure happened. I mean, this was like, I was what 22 years old and how different I would have reacted now versus how I did then. So yeah, I think.
Danny And Ashley (09:06.855)
Thank you.
Travis (09:15.127)
man, wow.
Danny And Ashley (09:29.46)
Yeah. it's, it's, I think part of it too, like through the years we've had kids that we said, we can't work with this kid right now in our home because of extreme behaviors. but I think we really shifted on where that line was and are we looking at that out of convenience or are other kids in the home being harmed by this? So there's just, there's always so many factors that go into it. and I think early on it was just like,
we felt like, she can't have her pregnancy threatened. And I mean, there is a time to look out for that, but were you gonna add anything? Well, and there's like, I mean, things you can do, because it's interesting that that happened with you Courtney. And I mean, feel like it, yeah, I mean, having your pregnancy threatened is a serious thing. And even in that moment, I think it was probably just God just giving me like the strength to.
to stay calm because I mean, think about when you're pregnant, your hormones are going crazy and the one thing you care about the most is protecting your baby. So I think that one moment where it was just a very like intense thing where I was really close to this child and I just had to, they threatened the pregnancy and I just had to tap out. You just have to know how to handle things. And I think I just said, okay, just leave, let Danny take over, know, he's going to be there.
Travis (10:27.385)
Yeah.
Travis (10:42.275)
Mm-hmm.
Danny And Ashley (10:50.452)
You get through moments, but I think later on is when you really get the context for why those kids were the way they were. One child in particular, like we found out years ago getting back in contact, you know, with her, that she had been through severe abuse before she had come to us. Unreported. Yeah. And we didn't even know it at that time, you know, but again, I just think when
Travis (10:58.489)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (11:15.683)
Hmm.
Danny And Ashley (11:17.758)
the Lord calls you to something, he equips you to handle those things. And the day to day, the great moments where it's like, my gosh, this is my job. I get to take these kids to a baseball game or we get to go to the movies and just live life. But to the rough moments where people are out of control and spinning on your face and all these terrible times.
Travis (11:33.667)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (11:45.345)
It's all good.
Danny And Ashley (11:48.028)
Anyway, saying that God equips you for the things He calls you to do.
Courtney (11:55.178)
Yeah. And I love you saying that too, because I, we often hear like, God won't call you to something that you're not already equipped for. And I have found that not to the case in our family. Like we were not equipped ahead of time, but then our eyes were opened and our paradigms were shifted. you know, so yeah, just making that note that, that doesn't mean you're to have it all figured out before you jump into this, this calling or this life. Yeah.
Travis (12:03.319)
Yeah. All right.
Danny And Ashley (12:15.304)
Yeah.
Travis (12:17.485)
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, one of things that on this podcast, we're always trying to be very real about is, is it is gritty. And so, you know, it's like, there's the tension between, hard days that have a lot of hard behaviors that make you go like, how, how, why are we doing this? And then the days that, maybe even the next day of like, you see so many rewarding things or things that, know, really affirm, like, this is amazing work. And, and I think.
It's a jumble of those things together. you know, as we'll talk more about in stories and different things. So shifting on, want to say, so I got to work with Danny and Ashley, specifically Danny, when we were in the house parenting role, which essentially was like a kind of a family style setup in a large, I guess, house, we call it a cottage. Where in that sense you were foster parents to around six to eight kids.
We did rotate with teammates. So there was, that's different than, you know, a licensed foster home where, mean, you are, that's you until it was respite care or something. So that was a difference. But, the fact that we also had, you know, at least several kids again, coming from trauma and dealing with very difficult circumstances in their life, as you can imagine, meant some pretty troubling and traumatic and difficult behaviors to work through. the capacity I worked with Danny with was.
as my wife and I were in an elementary boy's house, Danny was our, what we called, guess, a consultant there, but it was more, I mean, jokingly for me, was like a 911 operator for, oh crap, what do we do? I mean, this is Danny. I mean, this kid just, you know, broke a window and this and, you know, she's locked my wife into it. mean, so all that kind of stuff. So, but what I want to say is, you have a, you've had a lot of training on sort of,
Danny And Ashley (13:57.844)
Thank
Courtney (13:59.542)
Okay.
Travis (14:15.927)
you know, kind of dealing with behaviors and kind of getting to the root of some of that stuff. You also have a really intuitive gift, I think. I think some of that is gifting as well. Just kind of understanding people, understanding kids, you know, what's motivating them. So I want to ask you, you have a great line. I've heard you say this before that, and this is kind of a message I want you to unpack more to foster parents, but you say,
don't give up on what you're doing just because it seems like it's not working. And you've worked with Fox, the prints are sort of wrestling kind of in that all the time of like trying this, trying, you know, this, and then now I got to, so talk about that.
Danny And Ashley (14:57.746)
Yeah, that I just had like this jumble of memories from when we worked together, Travis. And, one of the, one of the more frustrating things about getting calls like that is there's really nothing that I can do to help. Like, it's like you're in a storm in the middle of the ocean and you're calling, you call me and I say, well, you know, have you done like, let's get the logistical stuff in order. Are the kids safe or how are you doing? Are you, know, are you able to work with this kid right now?
So let's go through those. then at the end of it, it's like, we're going to have to wait for the storm to pass because it's aside from reminding you of things that, know, like try to stay calm, try to talk calmly. you know, just different strategies for each specific kid. Aside from that, we're just going to have to make it through the storm. but the, part that you asked me about, which was, I always think about, like, if you're trying to get in shape,
And you come to me and I'm trying to help you get in shape. And I said, well, you need to eat better and go to the gym four times a week. But you come to me every three or four days and you're like, this is, this is not working. Like I'm barely losing any weight. I'm not noticing any changes. mean, at some point, the only thing you can say is, you, have to keep doing it because this is not, this is not something that's going to change overnight. It's not going to change in a week or two. another example that I like to think of is when you have kids.
and you go see the grandparents that you haven't seen in a while, every time they're like, my gosh, like look how much they've grown, but you didn't notice it because you're with them. And the same thing applies to behaviors and your kid's attitude and their, just the way they act. You're probably not gonna notice these small changes, but when they see someone that they haven't been around for a while, they're gonna notice, okay, there's something a little bit different about this kid now.
And those things are happening. And when it's right in front of our eyes, we don't always see it. But a lot of what foster care takes is you just have to be there every day. You have to try to stay consistent. You got to talk about things when they don't go well. We're not perfect and we're going to tell them we're not perfect either. But once you've got the right recipe and you're doing the right things, I'm not saying if you're, you know, yelling at the kids, wondering why that isn't working, don't stick with that. But when you've got the right tools.
Danny And Ashley (17:17.713)
You just have to keep doing it and you're going to start to see some small things. And if you're the type of person that tracks behaviors and thinks about things in that way, you'll start seeing a decline. and one other thing to add to that, the more you can encourage good behaviors, the more good behaviors you get, there's only time in the day for so many behaviors. So let's just call it a hundred. If there's a hundred behaviors a day and you start adding a few good behaviors, there's not even time in the day for, for more.
bad behaviors. So it's just something you have to stick with. You've got to keep doing it. The kids going to fall into more of a routine, stay consistent. But a lot of days it's just waking up saying this is going to be hard, but I'm just going to keep doing what we've been asked to do.
Travis (18:03.513)
Hmm.
Courtney (18:03.79)
I know a family right now that's really struggling in their home and shares with our little support group we've got here in our area. It's hard for me sometimes because I want to respond with kind of what you just responded, but more so like I lived that for years of I don't know how I can go on another day. This kid is drowning our family. It was day after day. But interesting now being on the other side of it, being able to see like the large timeline.
Travis (18:21.475)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (18:30.818)
that took many years, but seeing that slow progression that we couldn't see during that day to day, but now looking back, it's amazing where we are today. Now this child's an adult and we have a relationship that I wasn't even sure if we'd ever talk, once I became an adult. So it is, it's that slow progression and making those changes and being willing to see them and then praise them for those positive things when it's hard. Sometimes it's hard to give them praise when you're like, this kid drives me nuts. I don't know if I really like this kid right now.
Travis (18:57.325)
Yeah.
Courtney (18:57.699)
But we have to do it, right? We have to give them the praise and we have to notice those small things and hopefully over time notice bigger changes.
Danny And Ashley (19:04.391)
Yeah. And then, yeah, the longer you have, the more you're going to, you will see those changes. I mean, I'm not, I'm not saying every kid ends up going down the right path. It doesn't, that doesn't always happen, but we want to give them the best chance that they, that they have to succeed. Ultimately it's up to them. Courtney, what you were saying about the kid that you were referencing, I noticed that a lot, especially with middle school boys like Dale.
Travis (19:19.961)
Yeah.
Danny And Ashley (19:29.359)
One of their defense mechanisms, I think, is to try to be annoying. They try to get on your nerves. want everyone to know, I annoy them. I annoy my foster mom. But I do think it is a defense thing because if I try to be annoying and they think I'm annoying, then that's safe. But if I try to do what's right and they don't accept me, then they don't want to handle that. I don't think they think all that through in their minds, but I think...
Travis (19:55.939)
Mm-hmm.
Danny And Ashley (19:59.036)
under the radar, that's what's going on.
Courtney (20:01.518)
Yeah.
Travis (20:02.669)
Yeah, they want predictability. And that's predictable. And I'm going to kind of continue to test that predictability. But that's why I think a lot of times it seems counterintuitive. Like, why are you doing that? But that's also like you don't know. The brain wants to know.
Courtney (20:04.952)
definitely.
Danny And Ashley (20:08.925)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (20:09.069)
Hmm.
Courtney (20:17.974)
Yeah, I do.
Danny And Ashley (20:18.545)
giving, they try to give people a reason to not like them sometimes because they're afraid they're not going to be liked. So if I'm not going to be liked, I'm going to give you a reason not to like me. that's for me, it's the hardest with middle school boys. I don't know why that is, but you have to show them. like you. I'm first, I can be frustrated with you. can like, like, this is a tough spot, whatever right now, but as a person, I like you and I want you around to, to, especially a middle school boy.
I mean, I think girls are affected by that a lot too, but boys will turn on you and turn it into a war sometimes if they feel like you don't like them. Like they're just gonna say, I don't like you either. And now we'll find out who wins.
Travis (21:00.628)
shit.
Courtney (21:01.806)
Yeah. quite frankly, one of the best advice we ever got was by the late Dr. Karen Perveris when she said, you might not like them in the moment, but you need to fake it. They need to feel that you like them before they're going to believe it. And then the more that you even pretend, she was saying, the more it's going to become a reality for you once you start to notice the little things, the positive things about this child. You will grow to like this kiddo. Yeah.
Travis (21:07.619)
Mm.
Travis (21:11.417)
huh.
Danny And Ashley (21:24.167)
Yeah, you really will. Yeah, that's really good.
Travis (21:27.694)
Yeah.
Courtney (21:27.8)
I do have a follow-up question because you mentioned, you know, like when you were kind of coaching Travis or being that person he could call on or if you were to call in the moment and say, say Travis was like, I'm not, I'm not in a safe place right now. Jesse's not here. His wife, like, what would you say to somebody that's either single or like would answer that first question of like, no, I'm out. Like what would you encourage them to do in that moment?
Travis (21:39.577)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (21:45.187)
Yeah.
Danny And Ashley (21:47.921)
I mean, did you say that I'm not in a safe place?
Courtney (21:50.412)
Like if, like mentally, like I can't do this right now. I'm, I'm checked out. Yeah. I want to tap out, but I don't have somebody here to tap in. What would you suggest they do?
Travis (21:52.473)
Just want to tap out.
Danny And Ashley (21:58.194)
Yeah, I mean, because that's the first thing I would want to explore is like, is everybody safe? Like, is the kid safe? your other bio kids safe? Are you safe? Because there's times where you can feel like it's not a safe situation. If everybody's safe, I'm going to try to just keep them on the phone and like talk to them, remind them about what's going on. Like, I know you're not good right now. Just stay on the phone with me. Why don't you just...
Just ignore what they're doing, go in your room, close the door if you can, try to get away from the situation. But I think through talking to another adults, a lot of times that's what that person needs to hear. And just say, stay on the phone with me, call me, go say this and then call me back. I don't know, it's kind of sub situational. It's a little bit, but I think a lot of times when we as adults are like just at the end of our rope.
talking to another adult is sometimes enough to at least take us from a 10 down to a 7 or 8.
Travis (23:03.084)
and Courtney disappeared.
Danny And Ashley (23:05.617)
You look like you were going to say something anyway. Do you want to keep going Travis or wait for?
Travis (23:10.763)
Yeah, I was going to add that, I don't know what. Courtney, we had this happen before too, where a guest disappeared, but they were still on and talking. then it was like later on after I looked at the recording and they were still there.
Danny And Ashley (23:25.203)
There she is.
Courtney (23:27.646)
Sorry, I just, it is lightning outside, so I don't know if it's that, but it was just like, stop recording. Your recording has stopped. So yeah, I don't know. Better let me get back on. So.
Travis (23:34.143)
okay. Well...
That's perfect, because Danny was getting really sweaty. the weird thing is though, so you literally, it just knocked you off, right? Because.
Courtney (23:49.532)
Mm-hmm. And I just refreshed my screen and it came back. So.
Travis (23:54.285)
Because remember how with Ariana or whatever, we thought she was gone, but she actually was still recording and could hear us, I think.
Courtney (23:57.844)
secrets.
Courtney (24:01.354)
Yeah. I mean, it still shows me we're at 2404 and so I don't know. I think we're good to keep going. Yeah.
Travis (24:05.623)
Careful what you say.
That's weird. OK. OK. Well, this is a great, actually, intermission, too, to kind of like, that was a great question, by the way, Courtney. I wonder if we, I was curious to ask this, and maybe this is for everybody. But because I think if you're listening to it's like, OK, but what then?
Cause what we're kind of going down on this path was about like consistency for doing the right thing and holding with it and like the long game and whatever. But also like there are times we do pivot. like, there, is there a little bit of a discussion around that of like, I know it's so situational, so it's a little bit hard to just kind of generally say, this is maybe when you, does that make sense? Or is that just tough when it's, well, like, like also the tension between like,
maybe when there is time in situations to like go to a different strategy or whatever, like, cause that's part of the thing too. It's like, we're not so oversimplifying it to say like, always just stick with whatever you're doing. I'm trying to like, so I don't want that to come across either.
Courtney (25:20.041)
Yeah.
Danny And Ashley (25:22.715)
Yeah. Sometimes you have to change it up to see what works with that kid.
Courtney (25:23.72)
and nothing.
Yeah. And there are times, like, I think another thing is if you're not safe, like truly not safe, you need to call the cops. And I think that's, I get questions of that all the time. I've had people who are like, I can't call, I can't call, but they have somebody standing there with a knife outside the door. It's like, no, you need to call the cops. know, like there's a line there too of like, when is, if your safety is in jeopardy, that's a different answer. Kind of like Danny said, it's very situational.
Danny And Ashley (25:50.961)
Yeah, that's the first thing to check on every time.
Travis (25:51.363)
Yeah. Yeah. And I guess I'm not even talking just like, extreme dangerous stuff. I'm talking just like in the day to day of like just working with a skill or something. And it's like, you know,
Danny And Ashley (26:05.607)
I think for sure, like we have to be looking at that all the time. like, I think what I was saying before is you have to give it time to see, we making any progress? And look at that realistically, because it's not going to be a huge behavior changes. But there are times where you need to change. And most of the time, in my experience, what's needed to change is the adult needs to back off a little bit and maybe change their expectations.
Travis (26:13.005)
Right. Okay.
Danny And Ashley (26:32.083)
So sometimes the expectations are too much and we have to go down and we would at work, we would call it approximations. So if we ask them to clean their room, make their bed, get ready for school in the morning, they may not be able to do all that the first morning or the 10th morning. But maybe we need to start saying they've they've met our standard by just getting up, making their bed or just getting up and getting dressed and making it to the bus on time. There's different.
There's different ways that we can change our expectations. Makes it easier for us to praise the kid and let them feel successful rather than doing everything perfectly every step of the day.
Travis (27:12.889)
That's good. So is that. Are we like should we? Yeah.
Courtney (27:13.576)
Yeah. Yeah, I think you could ask a follow-up question, Travis, like leading into do you have any tips and, know, when maybe things aren't going so well or, you know, it's something that you're continually needing coaching through, like what are some tips that you could give to foster parents and.
Travis (27:30.711)
Well, I that is the next question we have on the outline anyway.
Travis (27:37.389)
Yeah, well, was going to say I a thing I was going to follow up with. So this hasn't been recorded, by the way. Or this is off. We're still, I mean, it's recording. this would still be edited out. So if we want to say anything else about that, did you have that answer that you just said that you want to resay?
Danny And Ashley (27:50.439)
Okay.
Danny And Ashley (28:01.743)
I don't know what we were talking about. What was question? About changing our expectations.
Travis (28:04.851)
well, I, yeah. Okay. Let me, let me just word a question. I'll throw it to you and then you can just, I'm going to give a follow up to what you said before we lost Courtney. See if I can put this together in a coherent way and then ask you a quick question and then, and then we'll bounce to like the helpful advice question. Okay. So do you want to trade places Courtney and take my next question on the outline? Okay.
Danny And Ashley (28:13.491)
You want to answer?
Travis (28:34.583)
And then I'll take yours. Okay. Okay. So, okay. Here we go. Yeah. So I really liked that. And it's, think, a thing that I, I remember also just in working with you, Danny and, know, kind of from your coaching, but also like, was the encouragement to also at times lean into your own gut instinct of like, I mean, we had a lot of training. We had a lot of like.
Courtney (28:36.958)
Sounds good, yeah.
Travis (29:03.737)
the kids had a of a motivational system that was kind of self-guided. like they, you know, there was a lot of affirmations of praise, which helped them to kind of get momentum. And then if they went backwards, there were consequences, but at times none of that would work because if a kid, you know, and it could have been an awful day or maybe they had a setback in their case where they all of sudden found out they aren't going home. And so you can imagine how hard that is or can imagine.
And, I do remember at times where they were, we had some kids that you were so far, like they wouldn't listen to one thing at all. Like it was like they're running the house. We're almost held hostage. just in terms of them just kind of do whatever they wanted. And I do remember in those instances, some of the advice was that, that I saw work was just, try to get this kid regulated again, you know, try to, and it could just be a thing. Like I even remember one time.
Jesse had the rest of the kids and they went and did something. And I took the kid that was just freaking out and kind of going through some really tough behaviors, just took him to Walmart. He loved looking at toys. And so was like, that was our time to just kind of, hey, let's go to Walmart. Wasn't trying to reward that behavior, but it was trying to get him just regulating again. Just trying to like, his nervous system was so, and so was mine, out of whack. But like doing that or just like trying to find humor.
you know, just trying to kind of, whether it was distracting out of the behaviors even sometimes, but anyway, I just remember some of that was advice you were given that I'd seen really worked.
Danny And Ashley (30:40.167)
Yeah. And one of the things you mentioned that we would train people to do is remove the audience. So when you said, yes, took the rest of them somewhere else. Having an audience, no matter who it is, sometimes keeps that going longer than you want it to go. We felt we were, we, most of the time we would try to ignore the behaviors that were going on, but there were some kids that the more you ignored it, the more they were going to step up and start doing things that you couldn't ignore. So what you said about using your intuition.
Travis (30:46.563)
Yeah. Yeah.
Travis (30:53.785)
Yeah.
Danny And Ashley (31:09.715)
You do just have to learn what each kid, what's going to work for them. And like you said too, sometimes nothing's going to work and you just kind of have to wait it out. There's just, there's not, there's situations that we're going to find ourselves in that we cannot control. And we just have to, we just have to stay in it.
Travis (31:30.179)
Yeah, that's good.
Courtney (31:30.832)
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like when we teach foster care classes now, we teach them the three Rs. And when people get the three Rs backward, it just does not work. So the first is regulate yourself and then the child and then relate with them. And then finally reason. you can't. And I see so many families trying to reason with the kiddo and asking the why and what's going on here versus like drive us up. You have to regulate yourself and them first, foremost all the time. Yeah.
Travis (31:54.969)
Yeah, right. Yeah.
Danny And Ashley (31:56.212)
The other one I've seen people do is while the kid has just totally lost their temper, they start adding on consequences. Well, now you've lost this for a week. Okay, now it's a month. It's out of control. Never talk about consequences when the kid is in one of those states where they're just not... I mean, we've all lost our temper before, not thinking straight.
Courtney (32:07.562)
Hmm.
Travis (32:08.981)
jeez.
Courtney (32:13.386)
Okay.
Travis (32:23.191)
Yeah.
Danny And Ashley (32:25.871)
All that kid is thinking is, I want to hurt somebody. I want to hurt something. I want to destroy something. They're they're ruled by anger at that, at that time. And you, you telling them to think rationally, like, well, don't do that. Or you'll lose your phone even longer or whatever. It's not the time to have that conversation at all. You're just trying to get them back to, I mean, what ended a lot of our situations like this, when a kid was out of control is they would eventually calm down and we would just say,
Courtney (32:40.042)
you
Courtney (32:43.828)
Hmm.
Danny And Ashley (32:55.411)
You know, we're all just going to go to bed. We'll, deal with it in the morning. And when you wake up the next morning, you know, let them go to school the next morning before you talk about it. When they come home, eventually there's going to be consequences to face, but it's not, it's not the time when everybody's tired, grouchy, out of control, not regulated. You just got to get through that and you can always deal with consequences later. I don't, I don't believe in like just loving kids through everything and there's no consequences.
Travis (33:12.377)
That's true.
Travis (33:20.813)
Mm-hmm.
Danny And Ashley (33:21.307)
mean, maybe some people have success with very few consequences and only positive. To me, a good mix of consequences and rewards is what I've seen be the most successful, but it's not the time when they're totally unregulated.
Courtney (33:35.378)
Yeah, yeah, great advice. You've shared a lot of pieces of advice, but any other general pieces of advice you can think of for foster parents, whether it's about behaviors or just in general things you think we should, we need to keep in mind.
Travis (33:35.555)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Danny And Ashley (33:47.686)
I thought of, yeah, think kind of along with the advice that you shared earlier, Courtney, from someone like pretending to like the kids. It's not, but this isn't really pretending. mean, one thing I realized, I mean, I hope it's not always pretending, but one thing I thought of when back when we were family teachers, when we were working in residential group care was that, you know, these kids are not your kids.
Travis (33:57.763)
Hehehehe
Danny And Ashley (34:13.329)
and their parents aren't around. When my kids would walk into the room as a mother, naturally I feel like my eyes would light up. Like they would see, my mom is happy to see me. It wouldn't just be like dead-eyed, like what? You know, like I hope that, I hope that's not how we respond to our own kids. I mean, yeah, we all have bad days. But something I just realized like when I was a family teacher was these kids don't have their parents and their, don't, maybe their parents wouldn't even respond to them like that. But I want,
when they walk in the room, I don't want them to feel like a burden. I don't want them to feel like, now Miss Ashley, she's not happy to see me. It sets the tone when you can show them, first of all, that you care, but that you're excited to see them. so sometimes, I would work on that and just trying to let them see that I was happy to see them and not dreading it. Because sometimes you do dread it. Certain kids that you might not die with, like you.
Travis (35:04.089)
Hmm.
Danny And Ashley (35:09.959)
you might be like, gosh, what is this gonna be like? But try to set that tone as the adult, you know? So that was something. And so yeah, you might have to fake that till you make it, but. Yeah, mean, the advice that I'm thinking of right now, I just wanna go back to what we were just talking about, because I think the totally unregulated moments give you the most opportunity to bond with the kid.
Travis (35:20.393)
That's a good tip. Good reminder.
Courtney (35:22.953)
Mm-hmm.
Danny And Ashley (35:39.796)
Sometimes you're going to feel closer to the kid after you get through a situation like that. It's going to, sometimes it ends in a total complete sobbing breakdown from the kid. And they, they got some emotion out that had been trapped inside them for a long time. And it had to happen that way, unfortunately for us. Um, but I want to talk about how to handle that after, after a major breakdown like that. And what I would say is put some time between it. And like I said, when I was talking before,
Let them go to sleep, wake up the next morning. Don't talk about it in the morning before school. You don't want to start everything back up. Let them go to school. Now they get a school day behind them. When they get home, what Ashley was saying is you need to greet them as if you're happy to see them. Hey, like how was school today? Come here and give me a hug. High five, whatever you're comfortable with with that kid and say like rough night last night. How you feeling? You know, bring a little bit of humor into it. How are doing today? You feeling okay? Like
Well, we're going to talk about it, but before we do that, why don't you grab your snack? You know, don't, you don't treat them like they're on trial and they, they're still going to have to face the judge and well, we're going to talk about what happened last. You're treating them as if you're a partner in the situation and we're acknowledging that things didn't go like they should have last night. We can acknowledge that there's going be consequences, but we're going to treat them like we're through with that now. Now we're going to get through the next phase together. So whether that's losing.
Travis (36:50.147)
Mm-hmm.
Danny And Ashley (37:05.403)
privileges, losing video game time or a phone or whatever. We're going to talk about that, but we're going to get through it together. And what that shows the kid is that you're on their side and that you care about them and love them because kids really do understand consequences. They know they shouldn't have acted like that, but it's all it's going to do is drive a wedge between you. If you take all those behaviors personally and think, well, he did this to my house or she said this to me last night. I can't believe she would speak to me like that after what we've done for her.
Travis (37:35.222)
Yeah.
Danny And Ashley (37:35.333)
All that stuff drives huge wedges between the relationship. So always protect the relationship.
Courtney (37:40.68)
Hmm. Such great, yeah. we primarily have been fostering teens lately because that's the biggest need in our area. And most of have been teenage boys. And every single one of them who has been in my house for more than a week, I've seen them cry. And those moments of like breaking down have always been in those repair moments of like, we are working on a repair in our relationship and then, you know, like you said, not right away. This is hours, days, sometimes later of, or even sometimes they'll come to me and be like, I really need to talk about what happened.
Travis (37:41.945)
So, that's them.
Travis (37:55.501)
Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Travis (38:06.425)
Hmm.
Courtney (38:10.322)
It's like just seeing that healing in them of knowing somebody cares and is going to listen and is going to walk them through. Like, how can we handle this? How should we handle it? A lot of them have never had that. They've never had those moments of repair like that. And we see such tremendous growth in trust and healing in all of it when we get to that point.
Travis (38:20.461)
Right. Yeah.
Danny And Ashley (38:29.243)
Yeah. And I have to remind myself too, and this is one thing we were going to talk about, maybe we still are Travis and Courtney, I don't know, but I have to remind myself too, that kids are at, when we have them in our care, they're still trying on personalities. They don't know who they are. That the part of them is thinking I might, I might be a bad boy. We're going to, I'm going to that out for a while. I mean, I can think of several kids that we had that went from like skater to cowboy to like country boy to
Travis (38:46.819)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Danny And Ashley (38:55.759)
just they're trying on personalities. And part of that is seeing how they're, am I going to be somebody that behaves and cares what somebody thinks or not? So we just got to get through these stages with them. Well, that makes me think too of labeling, you know, like that, that we get labeled at a young age and that tends to stick with us. You know, some of the encouraging things people speak over us and sometimes like the bad thing. So I'm a bad kid, you know, I'm bad. And I would, I would love to
Travis (38:58.093)
Mm-hmm.
Travis (39:03.769)
Hmm.
Danny And Ashley (39:23.815)
like just get in there and say, you're not, you you are not this, you know, and speak that to them. And because that's transformative, you know, when the words that we speak are so powerful. And so I loved it when they would, something would be brought up or they would be acting in this way, like I'm bad or what, I would be like, you're not bad, you know, just taking, deflating that, taking that power out.
Travis (39:25.945)
All right. Right.
Travis (39:31.138)
Yes.
Yes.
Travis (39:41.305)
Haha, yeah!
Courtney (39:41.534)
Yeah.
Travis (39:45.623)
Yeah, that's so good. that, and that's such a simple tip of like things that we can also overlook, or maybe we don't respond in that way, but yeah, you have the opportunity. It reminds me of a great line where someone said, the way we talk to our kids becomes their inner voice. So like we so much can, we don't realize our power in our words in like Ashley, in our expressions, like you said earlier, I love that. and I really love too, what everyone's kind of been saying here, but just the attunement and repair.
Courtney (39:46.303)
Hmm.
Travis (40:15.553)
I think, Danny, you said it of like, as much as we hate those moments and they can be really troubling and hard, what it can lead to out of that, I think you said this, is a deeper relationship. I mean, we can all think of even just with our own kids or a spouse, like coming after maybe even a fight or a really hard situation, like when you're able to kind of sit and look at each other and just maybe you're owning your part or whatever, but there's a deeper humanity you see. There's a way you kind of.
bond through what you just went through, like the fireworks, like, because a lot of times too, we're guilty of something in that interaction, or we can be, of maybe have been also damaging and that we can, as the adults, look at that moment too, to kind of say, this is where I went wrong, you know, and I don't know. See that would be helpful too, so.
Danny And Ashley (41:05.159)
I've asked young couples that question before, Travis, like if they're talking about marriage, I'm like, have you been in a fight yet? Because you kind of need to go, people need to go through big things like that and see like, let's make sure we come out on the other side. Okay. And I think I know kids intuitively feel that they want to, they want to know, is she going to kick me out? Is she going to give up on me because I called her that.
Travis (41:12.003)
Hahaha
Yeah.
Travis (41:19.033)
Yeah.
Courtney (41:21.482)
Hmm.
Travis (41:21.838)
Yeah.
Danny And Ashley (41:31.827)
Let's find out. I don't know that they always consciously do it, but it's something that you see, it's common enough that you know there's something inside of them that says, is something I need to test.
Travis (41:46.659)
Well, as we kind of get into the home stretch of this conversation, what I really love about having you, Danny and Ashley on is you guys, because historically your experience goes back far enough in time to where you've relationally had, and you've referenced this already in the conversation, but some times of connecting with former kids that were in your care who are now adults and you get to see that, which is an amazing gift. And so what I want to kind of camp out on for a minute is
In light of all that, you know, and kind of catching up and having some conversations where maybe you've both looked back with the child, the adult now, and looked at those times and the good and the bad or the hard times. How have those conversations now in talking to some of these kids now who've grown up, how has that changed your perspective looking back to being foster parents or that time together?
Danny And Ashley (42:42.835)
You answered that. I thought you were about to. I'm just thinking.
Travis (42:45.837)
Now, fine time for...
Courtney (42:45.841)
Hehehe
Danny And Ashley (42:50.493)
That's okay. I'm gonna say it later. Okay. Well, I mean, I think it's just so rewarding to see them as adults. And I think too, like when, sometimes when you're dealing with kids, you see them in a different way than you see up here, you know? And so it's, what's really given us perspective is to see our kids now, not that they're exactly our peers, we're in our forties, a lot of them are in their twenties. You know, so it's like,
Travis (43:02.905)
Mm-hmm.
Danny And Ashley (43:14.919)
It's just cool to see them as adults and to see the kids who have really overcome so many obstacles. And I had one, one of our boys that we took care of called me the other night and he had a job opportunity and he was like, I don't know what to do. Will you pray for me on this? You know, I don't know which state to move to, you know? So, I mean, it's just nothing better than that, you know, that they still know that we care and, know, it's very rewarding. Yeah. We have one of our kids.
Courtney (43:36.201)
Hmm.
Courtney (43:41.053)
Hmm.
Danny And Ashley (43:44.006)
started a roofing company about a year ago. We had our roof messed up pretty bad in the hurricane and we ended up working with him to get our roof redone. And now he's posted on Facebook all the time about how he's arguing with State Farm or arguing with Austin that he's going to get you a new roof. they told him no 10 times, but he didn't let him. And I'm like, I commented on his post. like, who would have thought that you'd ever be so good at arguing and get paid for it? Because
Travis (44:03.118)
haha
Travis (44:10.265)
that you refined with you guys back in the day.
Danny And Ashley (44:13.575)
Yeah, because I mean, we have joke about it now, but he was, he, he, we really butted heads and it was because he's an intelligent kid and he was smart and he knew how to get under your skin and he would argue longer than you wanted to. And, but I'm like, yeah, like he's, he's taking that skill and he's turning, I think he's going to turn it into a big business. We'll see. But I mean, I just think that so many, makes you feel old. First of all, to see somebody like celebrating their 30th birthday and you're like,
Courtney (44:19.71)
Hmm.
Courtney (44:34.953)
Yeah.
Danny And Ashley (44:43.571)
We used to take care of them. we had a kid call and talk about they had their first job and their budget. And he was spending like, I want to say like $1,800 a month on, what do call it? DoorDash. And so, like, let's talk about that. We still have some things to do. So it definitely changes. It's more of a like mentoring thing. I think to think about how it changes like
Travis (45:09.549)
Mm-hmm.
Danny And Ashley (45:14.419)
how you would work with kids is what Ashley said. Like these kids are all going to become adults and that time is gonna pass and you're either gonna be a good part of it or you're not. And we can choose every day to try to be a positive in that kid's life. another interesting thing I was thinking about when you were saying that Travis and when Ashley was answering is I've randomly met people in the community who they're just a business owner. You work with them or...
you you see them at church or whatever, and then you find out they grew up in foster care. And you're like, really? that's, mean, I would have never known that. And you think like, I hope, I hope you had a great experience, you know, were people good to you? What was it like? And you just, the people who are doing it now, it is such a calling. It's such a difficult thing, but there are adults out there now who back in the day, someone took the time to treat them well. And now they're running their own business and
No one thinks about that time in their past. It shaped who they are, but it's not who they are. Having that perspective on things makes it so much easier to deal with day-to-day behaviors and to stop worrying so much about whether they're using their manners or whether they embarrassed you at the store or whatever. We're just going to get through all that stuff and they're going to be an adult who is going to have a family. I don't know.
Travis (46:39.545)
Hmm. Yeah.
Danny And Ashley (46:42.767)
You wish you could go back after you get that perspective because even hearing people talk about it, it's going to help. But it's such a shift in your thinking when you actually start seeing things from that perspective.
Travis (46:44.633)
.
Courtney (46:54.696)
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I've loved this conversation. think it's such a needed, you know, this topic. I, again, as I mentor foster families and talk to foster families every single day, it's one of the biggest things is seeing people quit over big behaviors or seeing people just not have the tools and the resources. So I think we gave a lot of tips and ideas for them. And maybe we'll close out with if you have any books or suggestions. I know I've got a couple in my mind of maybe people could check out, but before we get there, we love to have people finish the sentence. So.
Travis (47:12.024)
Mm-hmm.
Courtney (47:27.498)
If you guys wanna both share, that'd be great. But the question is, or the sentence is, what kids in foster care really need is...
Danny And Ashley (47:36.872)
Mine's consistency. I think they just need a consistent adult. I've seen great foster parents who are very strict. I've seen others that were very funny. I've seen others that were very serious. Others that just every personality you can think of can be a good foster parent. You don't have to turn yourself into a different person to be a foster parent, but you need to show up as yourself and be consistent with that kid every day and be there for him. So mine's consistency.
I think mine is people who care because when they know you care, that's when you see the real change.
Travis (48:13.042)
Hmm. Yeah.
Courtney (48:14.26)
Yeah. And I want to go back to what I said earlier, because I feel guilty saying it aloud, that sometimes you don't like the kid, right? But I can honestly say that there have been moments like that. But I have always cared. And that's what I think you did. Like you said, that's the heart of it. If you care, then you're going to fake it if you need to, stick with it until it's there, and show this child love even if you're not feeling it in the moment, right?
Danny And Ashley (48:31.411)
stick with it.
Danny And Ashley (48:37.651)
Yeah. And I mean, I think that's a powerful thing that they can learn too is like the only reason I'm continuing to still deal with this is because I care so much about you. I mean, they're gonna get that. I think too when kids start looking at their own past behaviors with humor, when you can talk about things and talk about how they used to be and how they are now, I don't know, that's just kind of my personality, but I like to be with kids and talk about the past sometimes.
Travis (49:03.075)
Yeah.
Travis (49:07.289)
I love it.
Courtney (49:11.691)
So do you guys have any books or resources? I know some that come to mind for me. My husband and I are empowered to connect. Now it's Cultivate Connection, parent trainers. so going through that, if you don't have resources, if you're like, hey, I need more resources on maybe kind of like what you said earlier, Ashley, I feel like we got trading in foster care. For us back in the day, it wasn't as much as it is now. But now I feel like I train foster parents. I know what they get. And they get a lot of training on this. But then,
It's like, just kind of goes over your head until you're living in the moment and then the real training comes. But then it's like, crap, what do do now? I don't remember this stuff. So I almost wish foster families would go through the training again, like a year or two after they're into it. But do you guys have any other resources or books that you're like, this is really great for understanding behaviors and understanding how we can get kids to that place of healing?
Travis (49:44.035)
Mm-hmm.
Danny And Ashley (49:58.416)
I forgot to look at and see if I could think of any but I what I would encourage people to do is I'm more of a like YouTube guy at this point I'm embarrassed to say I wish I was more of a reader I used to be But there's there's a lot of great people that are talking about this stuff all the time on YouTube and I'm sure this podcast will be on YouTube if But there it's possible to find a community
Courtney (50:00.819)
Okay.
Courtney (50:09.898)
You
Danny And Ashley (50:24.199)
through those videos and through groups that form on Facebook and whatever media, social media you're on. I would encourage you to find other people that are doing the same thing you are and just create a support group. And if you've been doing it a while, be the support group, find younger people who are doing it or newer people and be there for them. I don't, unfortunately, I don't have a specific book that I can say is what I would point people to.
Travis (50:52.227)
Yeah, those great videos, YouTube is great. we've kind of referenced, we have a lot of guests who have YouTube channels and stuff like that. so yeah, that's a great, great resource.
Courtney (50:59.816)
And we've got a list of resources on our website too. you can search our resources. If you go to our resource tab, you can search them by topics. If you just type in like trauma, because all this is related to their background. If you type in trauma, you can see books and suggestions on there too.
Danny And Ashley (51:14.845)
Travis wrote a couple books that reference foster care, so look those up.
Courtney (51:17.886)
Yeah.
Travis (51:18.713)
Probably not a lot of good tips in there, but there's some stories. Hey, Courtney, mean, what are you got a book? What are we talking about here? You don't you got a name drop your book.
Courtney (51:23.102)
Yeah.
Courtney (51:28.554)
Yeah, lot of resources for different things. But I do encourage foster families if this is an area you're struggling in, or if you're considering foster care and like, don't know if I can because of this. Like Danny said, seek people, like go to somebody and ask them, like, how do you handle this? Or what does this look like in your home? And get to know those people and find supports. Like if you are in that, like I'm failing right now, I need help. Have somebody on your speed dial who you can just call like a Danny was for Travis.
Danny And Ashley (51:28.743)
Yeah, I'm calling it out.
Travis (51:57.273)
We all need a Danny is kind of the thing about that
Courtney (51:58.826)
Yeah, there's the... Awesome. Well, appreciate you guys joining us today. Thank you for your insights, for your wisdom. I love how it's been years since you've been in that role, but yet these things have stuck with you and have been meaningful to continue to coach people, talk with people, and encourage people in this journey, which I hope and believe you did today. Thank you.
Danny And Ashley (52:00.551)
Yeah.
Travis (52:17.699)
Mm-hmm.
Danny And Ashley (52:22.553)
Thank you guys very much. Yeah, and we may not be done. We'll see. Who knows?
Travis (52:24.281)
Thanks for being on. cliffhanger. Okay, I love that. All right, good seeing you guys.
Courtney (52:26.346)
Yeah.
Danny And Ashley (52:30.227)
No, this really was fun and we appreciate you asking us to be on.
Travis (52:36.473)
Thanks for being on.
Courtney (52:36.715)
Thanks.