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The models of church we’ve been using aren’t working. Churches are shrinking, people are disconnecting, our membership is aging, and there are serious questions about our relevance in the world. It’s time for us to rethink how we do everything. By stripping us down to our mission, to the WHY rather than the HOW, can we rebuild our churches into vibrant, covenanted communities that can think outside our traditional boxes? Join Rev. Peggy Clarke, Senior Minister, and Jil Novenski, Director of Religious Education for Children and Youth at the Community Church of New York for informal, unstructured, joyful, and radically honest conversations about what's working, what's not, and how we can embrace change in times of uncertainty.
So then it
Rev. Peggy:got really quiet. I'm reverend Peggy Clark, senior minister at Community Church of New York.
Jil:I'm Jil Novenski. I'm the director of religious education.
Rev. Peggy:And we're coming to you from Community Church here in the heart of Manhattan, New York
Jil:Coming from a long line of disruption. Four fires, three name changes.
Rev. Peggy:Two pandemics.
Jil:We moved four times.
Rev. Peggy:We sold 5 of our buildings.
Jil:Yeah. That part.
Rev. Peggy:We had a vote to oust the minister.
Jil:We're in a rented church space.
Rev. Peggy:We got sued by 4 members.
Jil:Oh my god. We're inviting you to join us for a Sunday to Sunday rundown of how we do things here. Hoping that you find out what that might look like for you.
Rev. Peggy:We don't know what we're doing here.
Jil:We are showing up.
Rev. Peggy:Well, here's the thing. This is supposed to be our last We've been sort of imagining this as our last episode of whatever, like, this season is. We started in the fall, and we haven't recorded now in a few months. But we're feeling like we need to put an end, like, close it somehow.
Jil:Yeah. Capping it off.
Rev. Peggy:Right. So what we were talking about is, like, if now you've been you went to the workshop, and you're in the Facebook group, and you've been tracking the podcast or the sub stack and you're keeping up, what's the thing? Like, what's next? What do you need to be thinking about?
Rev. Peggy:So ... So we wanted you guys to be here partially because you haven't been tracking it all in the same way, and maybe Mhmm. Can say something that helps people who are feeling like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do next. But we also want to talk about, like, a little bit around theory of change. How do you how do you change a congregation?
Rev. Peggy:How do you move a group from what they've always done into something new? How do you spark energy or new life? Yeah.
Jil:And just
Rev. Peggy:like, what do we need? Unitarian universalism as a denomination, the country, like, where does religion what is the effect of religion in our country or should or could be given the kind of nightmare scenario we're facing at the moment. Sure.
Jil:Yeah. It's like it's kind of recognition of the stuck place. Sure. And how do you get unstuck?
Rev. Jude:Well, you gotta ask that question first. Like, so is this working for you?
Jil:Right.
Rev. Jude:Wanna keep doing it? And a lot of churches, congregations, fellowships, societies wanna keep doing it when you ask them that question. Mhmm. And so they're not really looking to change. They're looking to have a feeling of doing something without actually shifting how you do anything.
Jil:That's interesting.
Br. Zachary:And talking about change can bring up feelings or memories of times that change was too hard or change hurt or change was uncomfortable, and so those sense memories can be so strong that you don't wanna talk about change. Maybe you would be willing to change, but we certainly can't use the word. It causes this stuckness feeling to talk about change itself, and it's also the only thing we all keep doing all the time, right? It's the it's the state of the world. The world has changed a lot, especially now.
Br. Zachary:I'm thinking about the moment and what it what it means to be responsive to a world that's changing a lot right now, and our congregations kind of have to hold that tension. We have to hold that space. What does it look like? That's really hard, and I think that the sense of place is what our folks have really looked for or needed from us. Not having a building as part of it, but being somewhere and kind of being present to the moment is, a unique gift of churches.
Br. Zachary:A an image comes to mind of the preacher holding a newspaper under his arm, and I think that's a UU image, but, I might be wrong.
Rev. Peggy:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Who was that? I noticed who you're talking about.
Br. Zachary:Yeah.
Rev. Peggy:I mean, there was a Thomas Martin. There's an icon of Thomas Martin Sure. With a newspaper in one hand and a Bible in the other.
Jil:But they said,
Rev. Peggy:I knew you once, you know.
Br. Zachary:Of it. Yeah. Thomas Martin is a great is a great, sort of focal point for that, and I think I've never been so connected to what the news means than I than I am now. We are all so isolated from each other. Change does feel like the bigger ask of churches.
Br. Zachary:But we can do it, and we do it anyway. Talking about it is tender. The enthusiasm of being a part of something worth joining is what communities are looking for. I think it's there. There's some cult of personality there too.
Br. Zachary:There's some sort of, like, difficult aspects of why we gather together in in charisma. Right? But I'm also thinking about my daughter. People like that I bring her to church, and she loves to tell potty humor jokes. And I am not terribly comfortable with the 2.
Br. Zachary:And yet, you know, that giggle happens wherever we talk about it. Right? And you know her probably better than most in the congregation. And I think I would like my family to be a part of a place that cultivates that kind of love and joy. That's hard to do in a place that's not a church, at least in my experience.
Br. Zachary:In New York City, it's a tough place.
Rev. Peggy:So if we sort of agree that church is necessary, because clearly the people in this room thinks that church is necessary, necessary. How do we, transform or how do we inspire or even how do we support people when they're trying to make it more relevant. Right? Like, and more exciting. And and a place that people are drawn to instead of I mean, before, I started with talking about, like, the energy it takes just, like, to get from your house to the church.
Jil:Yeah.
Rev. Peggy:There are specific things around having a toddler and being in a subway, but everyone has that same I mean, honestly, even if it's, like, 3 blocks away, it still has that, like, you have to move. You have to get yourself ready and get out of the house. There has to be some kind of magnet in that space that is attracting you to it. So what is it that we need to be doing? And I don't even mean I really actually don't mean us, specifically, in community church.
Rev. Peggy:I mean, what do we need to be doing as Unitarian Universalists in our own religious spaces to create the magnet? Mhmm.
Jil:Well, you know, before we before we turned our mics on, right, we were having a little chat and we were talking about folks that may not feel like they have the wherewithal. And it's hard to think about someone in that space getting energized. Right? And what would be their first step? I think it feels lonely to be in that place sometimes too.
Jil:So taking a first step in terms of just identifying one other person in your community. It couldn't doesn't even have to be in the church community. It could be outside in your life. One other person that you have any generative conversation with at all Mhmm. Or that you connect with on common values at all and starting there.
Jil:Maybe it's not so much leaning into the concept of change because that may feel jarring and uncomfortable and scary, which I personally think are are sometimes good drivers for things. But when you're in a stuck place, maybe it's not feeling that way. And maybe it's leaning into what you love about the values and the rituals. You know what I mean? And and it's talking about it outside of your church walls.
Jil:Right? It's, like, that kind of gradual socializing and being proud of what you've been a part of, but inviting new voices in, like, rooted in those values.
Rev. Peggy:But don't you think that's what we've been doing? I feel like that's what we've been doing now for decades of, like, bringing people in. I'm I'm starting to feel like maybe we need to go out.
Jil:Well, that's what yeah. No. I think we need to go out. I I don't think it's necessarily just bringing folks in. It is first going out.
Jil:You're not gonna be able to sit in the same 4 walls and get something new by sitting in the same 4 walls and just being there and waiting for folks to come.
Jil:It's not
Jil:gonna happen. It's not happening.
Br. Zachary:It's It's both. It's a it's a it's a both and in in inward and outward is is what I hear you saying. That it's you you can't get you can't grow and you can't get vitality without looking outside. I think, you know, there's a truth though that though that that joy, that vitality, that that music, right, of of being around other people is part of who we are, and when we gather, we can find it, especially if we're talking about it, especially if we're talking about what we want to do. But I hear the other side to that.
Br. Zachary:You have to go out. You can't just look for it on the inside. If you've been having the same conversation amongst yourselves about being welcoming and yet you're shrinking, then you've lost people. It's not the right words to use. We have to find some other way to communicate what's happening that's worth sharing.
Br. Zachary:And I agree with you, reverend Peggy. It's worth sharing. It's worth participating in. It's maybe the difference between some of these folks I see leading lives that they find meaning in and, and the otherwise. I want more people to come to church.
Br. Zachary:And when I say come to church, not all that many do or even like being asked. That's not the primary obstacle in my opinion because I think once we start doing it, it feels good. But maybe it doesn't feel good right away. We have to give it time, and that's hard. How do we encourage people to just show up for a while?
Br. Zachary:Because it'll feel better in a while. That's a tough ask for our culture.
Jil:I mean, I think some of the conversations that we have here that I think could be had in lots of different places are considerations around how we offer what we offer. I mean, even this year, you know, me feeling like, well, I'm offering a a a 10 week program, and I'm realizing that folks are not in a place necessarily where they're they're wanting to make that kind of a commitment anymore. So how welcoming am I if I'm only offering these chunks? And might it look different if I offered as more stand alone and then make it my work to figure out how to include those folks that joined that weren't here before. You know, what does that look like?
Jil:And, you know
Rev. Peggy:I think the skill though that you're talking about is flexibility.
Jil:Yeah.
Rev. Peggy:Uh-huh. So if we're talking about how we create new church models Mhmm. The first thing we need to be is flexible.
Jil:Yeah. We need to
Rev. Peggy:be able to deconstruct what it is we think we already have.
Jil:Right.
Rev. Peggy:And start building into it more elasticity.
Jil:We need
Rev. Peggy:to say this is this is what we think. This is what we did in the past, and and it's a big maybe. We may do it that way, and we're just gonna start it and see what happens. Well, right.
Jil:Embracing not knowing, that's first. Being flexible, that's second. And and by the way, I don't think that just serves folks that are, like, paid staff at a church. So for how many churches are are losing if it's not a massive commitment that they have to say yes to. I mean, everybody's got really complicated lives.
Jil:We've known that all along, but I think right now, we're existing in a time where, you know, things just seem to be a lot more dramatic and extreme. There the dynamics are wider and stronger in every direction. I mean, illness and, you know, there's just all kinds of different stuff going on. So that creates a wider welcome too to look at the model, to look at the way that we're doing it, and sometimes just going out into the world. I mean, is church just a place, or is it an attitude that you are excited about talking about with people that walk into that space on a Sunday, or is it something that you are excited about talking about with people that know nothing about it?
Jil:You know, for all those of us who came to Unitarian Universalism, unchurched as adults, who feel frustrated we didn't know about it earlier. Like, I wanna embody that person who is gonna be sharing the message out loud in other places, the same way somebody did with me until I got here, finally.
Rev. Jude:Conversations that has to happen with the denomination. A lot of our frustrations around this pandemic time are often coached in language around capitalism. I mean, we're not here so focused on numbers, but so much of this conversation retrospective a bit and say, is adjusting to the current model of capitalism even in our best interests as a religious organization.
Br. Zachary:Right.
Rev. Jude:Even the question of survival of, like, how do we make x, y, and z work is answering a question for a different system than what we're trying to build.
Br. Zachary:Wow. That's powerful. And I I I hear that observation, I think, from all 3 of you that the world as it was doesn't work anyway. Why would church as it was serve that new world? It shouldn't.
Br. Zachary:We need a new model of church. And I think that that's part of the foundation of the, you know, disrupt church ethos is we have to find something that works better. Flexibility is certainly one of the most important qualities we need to cultivate in order to meet the needs of a changing world. And I I've noticed that people have been doing this for a long time, and there's a long tradition of trying to meet the needs of a changing world we all have to draw on. There's a strength in knowing where you come from and knowing your history that I, also recognize as a uniquely churchly idea.
Br. Zachary:We talk about history. We talk about how
Rev. Jude:listening to this podcast. I I think that how we got here to global extinctions Mhmm. Shouldn't be the metric for what we wanna
Jil:get stable. That part of it. Yes. Yeah.
Rev. Peggy:Call us crazy.
Br. Zachary:Right. Right.
Rev. Peggy:Maybe it didn't work.
Rev. Jude:Maybe it didn't work. And so I think for for you, yous, there is an invitation to lean into the part of the denomination denominations that have been around for since the reformation that maybe religious language and leadership might be right, and someone else might be wrong. Mhmm. And that's often a challenge so many of our congregations that
Jil:you know
Rev. Jude:what? You should join a small group. I'm gonna just tell you. You should join a small group. If you aren't one right now and you're listening, find 1.
Rev. Jude:This is not necessarily about serving the needs of what you think you always need. Sometimes in the human experience, it's okay to just do something with other humans to be better connected.
Jil:Yeah. Right.
Starling:I want to just jump in here with something that just came to me and seems like something we haven't talked about yet, yet, but might be an interesting way of kind of reframing that idea of disrupting church is there are already aspects of church that are disruptive to the aspects of society alienating us and keeping us isolated and keeping us tired and bogged down and lonely. So maybe the way that we disrupt our current way of doing church, which for a lot of people looks like showing up on Sunday, listening to a sermon, putting $5 in the donation plate, having coffee, and going home, is to lean into those disruptive aspects. Like, you know, so many of us are in the United States. We live far away from our extended families. So when something around us to take care of us, to make us meals, to offer to help do our laundry, to clean the house.
Starling:And for me, like, those acts of caring, that's where the church community can become so powerful. And and I know that all the people I know, they want to serve each other. They want to help each other. And a lot of the times, you know, there's a church that I'm connected to where I know 60 people will show up on a night to make meals for someone in the congregation who just had a baby or just lost somebody because they we want to do that for each other, and we want other people to do it for us. So that's one way that I really think about, like, leaning into how we can, yeah, disrupt these systems that we don't wanna be part of anymore.
Rev. Peggy:Yeah. It's anti individualistic. It's communal living in a way that capitalism doesn't promote. Right? Capitalism is more hypercompetitive, and, theoretically, we can be hyper collaborative.
Jil:Yeah. It's it's definitely leading with a mutual aid mindset. Mhmm. Because Community care. Community care, which extends beyond your church walls also.
Jil:I mean, so if you're in a church that is really struggling and dwindling in terms of membership, And so you don't feel like within is where all that generation is gonna be happening, but with a mutual aid mindset, you're looking at your wider communities. Where are the needs? What are our needs, and how do we partner? You know, how do we create symbiotic relationships?
Br. Zachary:I think I learned from this conversation the language around consumer model as being a a a an unhelpful frame for churches to think. And, I use it all the time now, recognizing the way that consumerism functions to create consumerist models even in churches. And I hear the, specificity in both of what you're saying about the details of what it looks like to do something else. It looks like mutual aid. It looks like sharing of the responsibilities of being human.
Br. Zachary:It looks like sharing in the joys and difficulties of being human too. That's why we that's why we're here for for each other at church, and, it's disruptive. But sometimes it looks like story time, which is
Jil:not just for kids, but it's for adults too. I have colleagues that are doing story time where adults are still showing up on Zoom for stories.
Rev. Peggy:Mhmm.
Jil:You know
Jil:what I mean? And as you use creating space for people that don't know about Unitarian Universalism to come in. For example, with us, the crafting salons, it's a space where anybody can come and be involved. But opening with a reading, opening with a chalice lighting, that's not something you're gonna get in every space. That's gonna indicate to you that you're in some place that's a bit organized in terms of ritual.
Jil:So that's interesting. Right? That's something a little different and then the rest unfolds as you might expect. But in the back of your mind, you're thinking, I wonder what else. You know what I mean?
Jil:So creating I mean, it's a stone suit moment. Mhmm. It is a stone soup moment.
Br. Zachary:Well, Joe, I think we're also very lucky because you're really good at that. And you bring not only the attention, but the skill And, and that that skill, I think, is cultivated in church communities, and I think it's also something that, is just really valuable, something we can lift up when we gather. Some of us, you know, really, really thrive in those contexts. I certainly think that you're one of them. And I hear you, Starling, talking about some of those contexts where maybe without and how disruptive that can be, especially for capitalism.
Br. Zachary:And really, that's what we need. I was thinking about the financial insecurity that so many of the people I know are dealing with, not just my own experience of tightening costs and having to shift myself for economy that doesn't seem to be working that well, I see and hear from everyone the same thing. It's really hard. I I think a disruptive system, a safety net would be really valuable.
Jil:You know, and I don't think change is like that. I I I guess a lot of folks you know, so there there are different reactions to that concept of change. So for some people, that feels very energizing. For other people, it's very scary, and I get it. I totally get it.
Jil:But maybe change isn't necessarily some kind of thing that you can't envision. It's something you've never seen before. Maybe it looks very much like some of the knitting circles that existed once upon a time, where conversations were had with women who weren't allowed to vote. Right? And and and that's how things started to spark gradually while you're all knitting shawls.
Jil:You know what I mean? I mean, maybe change is just not so elusive as it might feel. And and I think the first step is definitely reaching out, just identifying one other person in your circle or just outside of your circle and sparking a conversation rooted in these values or maybe not rooted in the values. Maybe that's not such a conscious effort. Maybe it's just your you know what?
Jil:Let's go have coffee. Start a conversation there and talk about the change you'd like to see or the stuckness that you can't stand and see what they have to offer. I mean, more brain I mean, we've brought more brains in the room for this episode, which is helpful. I mean, it's just helpful to bring some other energy in.
Rev. Jude:And it's an invitation for our churches to do as voluntary associations as James Luther Adams, one of our Unitarian forebearers, would teach us our society's white blood cells against fascism, and it's on the rise right now. That's what our purpose is.
Jil:I'm glad you said it because there are folks that are asking if church is even relevant anymore, and every time, that's what I'm thinking.
Jil:I'm thinking it's not only relevant.
Jil:It's critical. Yeah. If you're not activated, get activated. Yeah. Get activated.
Jil:Mhmm. Absolutely. Mhmm.
Rev. Peggy:So as
Rev. Jude:we sort of close this conversation, and it's a
Jil:conversation we started last June,
Rev. Peggy:conversation we started last June and, of course, we're closing it for the podcast just for right now, but I I I'm hoping this conversation continues
Jil:for
Rev. Peggy:a long, long time. Wondering if there are things we wanna say to people. Right? Less energized. They're shrinking and aging.
Rev. Peggy:And so what is it that we wanna say as we close this conversation?
Br. Zachary:A a phrase I actually got from you last week, reverend Peggy, reverend Peggy, the epidemic of loneliness, and, how pervasive it is in every aspect of culture. You know, loneliness is cured by relationships. I think that's hard for us to lean into because relationships are hard, but just being around people is is really enough to cure that, and I'm thinking about how difficult that can be to hold on to. You know, I'm thinking about the conversation that is longer and and wider than just what we're talking about right now. And loneliness, I think, affects all of us in this time and age, in this context in a different way.
Br. Zachary:We also miss the ways of gathering that are perhaps familiar but non existent or or don't appear anymore. There's no to make soup, I'm not trying to be funny, but if you
Jil:are someone
Rev. Peggy:who knows how
Jil:to make soup, I'm not trying to be funny, but if you are someone who knows
Jil:how to make soup, I'm not trying to be funny, but if you are someone who knows how make soup I'm not trying to be funny. But if you are someone who knows how to make soup, make a pot of soup and share with 5 people. Bring it to
Rev. Peggy:them. Mhmm.
Jil:You know? I mean, honestly, just imagining, taking a moment to imagine how many adults may be in your wider community who totally align with every one of our UU values, but they just don't know. They just don't even know that that's a thing. They only know that there's a church and lots of people don't wanna go to a church.
Rev. Peggy:Right.
Jil:So what does that look like? Striking a conversation with somebody that is just aligning on values?
Rev. Peggy:Mhmm. Kinda, what do you think?
Starling:Well, along those lines, I'm thinking within your existing church community, your congregation, your, you know, extended church or UU network. Think about people who are going through something right now. Maybe, you know, they just lost somebody. Maybe they just gained somebody. Maybe they are having an illness.
Starling:Maybe they're had a surgery recently. And talk to one other person in your congregation about what you can do to support that person. Because it's not only about looking out. It's also about looking in at who is already here. Are we supporting them in all of the ways that they need to be supported?
Starling:Are they gonna stay? True. And are they going to them? You know, they're gonna tell their friends. Oh my gosh.
Starling:You know, it's so amazing. I wasn't expecting it, but this week just got so much easier because 3 people from my church just came over and cleaned my house.
Jil:Yeah.
Starling:And now there's just this huge weight off of my people talk about that kind of thing when it happens to them, and then that I don't know. That idea spreads. So for me, that's that would be my action item because it feels good and is spiritually fulfilling to do something for another person and also to then have a little spark of confidence that there's a community that would show up for you in the same way. Yeah. You don't forget that.
Starling:A lot. Yeah. It really does.
Jil:Mhmm. Yeah.
Rev. Peggy:I've had people do that for me.
Jil:Yep. Mhmm. You don't ever forget that.
Rev. Jude:And remember, we've been here before. I mean, I've heard you said it in the pulpit. Reverend doctor William Barber has talked about the 3rd Great Awakening. Churches have been a mess before. Politics have been a mess before, and those are moments, however horrible, for opportunity, and it's on us to do it
Jil:this time.
Rev. Peggy:Which is where I come in and say, I actually find it really exciting. I do. I feel like I was born for this, maybe because I was born, so I feel like, you know Yeah. So this is our moment, because here we are.
Jil:Here we are.
Rev. Peggy:But I do feel like like, wow. There's so much potential for things that are really wonderful, and we have done this before. We've done this over millennia. I mean, we have recreated ourselves so many times, and I feel like this is great. Let's go.
Rev. Peggy:Let's do it. Mhmm. And there's a framework here. Yeah. And there are rituals
Jil:and traditions and rituals and traditions and tools Mhmm.
Jil:That if those were all in play
Jil:in wider society Mhmm. We wouldn't be facing what we're facing now.
Br. Zachary:Yeah. Just wouldn't. It's interesting. I hear you asking the question from before, where do we get the energy to do some of this stuff? And sometimes you don't have it before you get here, and you start talking to other people who are lit up by these ideas.
Br. Zachary:And then there's more energy than you know what to deal with. Yeah. The energy is out here. The energy is in someone else. You just gotta talk to them, and they'll give it to you.
Rev. Peggy:Well, thank you guys for showing up. We totally dragged you out of nowhere. So thank you. Really grateful.
Jil:Good sparks. Good.
Rev. Jude:Great to be here.
Rev. Peggy:Thanks, darling.
Jil:Yeah. And everyone else, connect with us online.
Starling:You know, the Thanks, darling. Yeah. And everyone else, connect with us online. You know, the Facebook isn't going away. There's a group where we can keep talking about this and swapping ideas.
Starling:Feel like now is a good time to start really just swapping some practical ideas, like some of what we came up with on the spot today and see where it goes. Use that space. Don't wait for us to ask you a question, and then you respond. Follow the substack as well. We'll be continuing the conversation there.
Starling:But right now, we feel like, okay. We've done enough talking and ruminating. And now, spring is here, and we're ready for
Rev. Jude:action. Rock on.
Jil:Speaking of action, I probably shouldn't, but I'm gonna go ahead and throw it out there. Everybody knows I have lots of energy most of the time. Really? And and I just wanna say if there's anyone listening right now that really needs some energy and wants to talk through some ideas, contact me.
Rev. Peggy:Oh, that's me. That's
Starling:Thank you for joining us for this episode of the disrupt church podcast hosted by reverend Peggy Clark and Jill Nowinski and produced by me, Starling Carter, for The Community Church of New York. To join the disrupt church conversation, you can find
Starling:us on Facebook and on Substack. You can find links to both of these in our show notes.
Starling:If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts or better yet, send it to a friend. See you next time.