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Listen to Prisons Inside/Out, a podcast from Correctional Service Canada. Follow along as we take you beyond the walls of our institutions, highlighting the important work we do to protect Canadians and change lives every day.
Kirstan: So welcome, Kevin. Thanks for joining me today.
Kevin: Thanks so much, nice to be here.
Kirstan: Tell me a bit about your job here at CSC.
Kevin: I'm the Senior Director of Operations with CORCAN, which essentially looks after a lot of the internal services for the department, namely sales and marketing, for example. We have an engineering centre as well that provides technical services to our manufacturing shops. I also look over our warehousing and logistics and other internal services like procurement and some of those activities to help the CEO's office.
Kirstan: Perfect. How long have you been doing that?
Kevin: In this capacity, for the last four years, but I've been with CORCAN since 2007 in various capacities. So, I've been with the program for a long time.
Kirstan: So Kevin, tell me what CORCAN is.
Kevin: CORCAN is, essentially, a rehabilitation program that focuses on employment for offenders. Essentially, all that we do is driven to help offenders find and maintain employment in the community.
Kirstan: And can you give us a brief history of CORCAN? You talked about when it started and why was that? Why did it come about?
Kevin: Yeah. I mean if you look back at the correctional history in our country, I mean there's always been some level of prison industry as far back as the 1850s. But CORCAN specifically, when we obtained or designation as a Special Operating Agency in 1992, it really allowed us to essentially do more for offenders as far as providing training for essentially the same amount of investment. What I mean by that specifically is as a Special Operating Agency, CORCAN’s able to collect revenues for some of the byproducts of the goods and services that derive from on the job training and reinvest all those proceeds fully back into the program, which essentially helps for further training, be it on the job training or vocational training, which I'm sure we'll talk about later today.
Kirstan: And when I think about the Correctional Service of Canada's mission, it's about assisting and supporting inmates to become law-abiding citizens. So how does working when you're inside or even in the community contribute to that?
Kevin: Yeah, of course. I mean, when you look at what we called, you know, dynamic security, having, essentially, engagement and pro-social engagement specifically, does reduce, you know, the need for more static security type of approach. So it definitely does provide, you know, the environment where offenders are able to demonstrate good behavior. And the other thing too that's important in looking at on-the-job training in the correctional facility standpoint is that it provides an environment where offenders are able to fail, essentially, where the stakes are a lot lower. Meaning that if, you know, if one of the problems that an offender would have, for example, is short temper in the on-the-job training environment, if for example, they're not good at following directions, and then that triggers, you know, a reaction, when there is a reaction, CORCAN and other on-the-job training from CSC, we’re there to help and coach and provide another opportunity for them to come back and learn from those experiences. And if those behaviors are not learned in a rehabilitative process and they get released and the stakes are a lot higher when those behaviors are demonstrated, those negative behaviors are demonstrated in community employment, it could result essentially in unemployment and your employment being terminated. But in the case where there are, you know, there's learning to be had, that's okay. We're there to support them along the way.
Kirstan: I was wondering about structure being one of the skills that is taught in coaching.
Kevin: Yeah, I mean, that's essentially, what we call transferable skills or essential skills that that we try to mimic. So in CORCAN on-the-job training assignments, essentially, we try to mimic the real world as much as possible. So, it's learning those elements that you mentioned, Kirstan, like structure, that, in addition to the technical skills that they're learning, be it construction, welding, manufacturing, you know, there's this foundation of essential skills that are being taught.
Kirstan: How do you teach soft skills like people skills for individuals who may not like human interaction as much?
Kevin: Yeah, that's a that's another good question. There's a multi-pronged approach, I would say, in all that we do from a learning standpoint and soft skills, essential skills, is no different. We have a program that's called the National Employability Skills Program, if you look, for example, last fiscal year we had about 680 certificates that were given to offenders and that's essentially a classroom setting, if you will, facilitator-led, where they learn things like communication, teamwork, because some offenders learn better in that environment. And then we also have as we talked about on-the-job training opportunities where they can work in a CORCAN shop or in on-the-job training assignments with the Correctional Service of Canada. So we try to have a multi-pronged approach so that depending on the learner's preference, then there is some learning that takes place.
Kirstan: And in terms of picking the right instructors, what would you say is really important? Because you need someone with a lot of patience, organizational skills and the aptitudes, if you will, that you would like others to follow like, so they have to lead by example, essentially.
Kevin: I mean, I've seen hundreds of instructors, CORCAN instructors, across the country over the years, and we use instructors because they're teaching, you know, technical skills and they're in their respective trades, be it again, carpentry, welding, you name it, plumbing, electrician, but they're really role models essentially. And, having seen a number of them interact with the offenders one-on-one, the offenders really do see them as, as role models as well. So they carry an enormous responsibility, but from what I've witnessed, it's a responsibility that they don't take lightly and they're there for the right reasons.
Kirstan: And one of the things I notice and that I was quite impressed by is the ability to give back. I noticed a lot of the time projects that are undertaken, if we take the construction sites, for example, you know, making sheds for the community that can be given back or making Indigenous homes that are contributed to the community to help with the housing crisis. During the pandemic, I know we made some modular homes for some communities and now I hear about, you know, those devastating fires that happened in Jasper and our ability to help them rebuild. Can you tell me a bit about these successes?
Kevin: Yeah, I mean, there's so many to pick from. You've highlighted a number of important ones already. But, I mean, if I take a step back, looking at essentially the volume of work that CORCAN undertakes, about 95% of that work is with other federal government departments and the other 5% would typically be municipalities of provincials, and you talked about Indigenous communities which would be an example of that would fall in this 5%. But when you look at, essentially, Public Service and Procurement Canada’s supply manual, they're advising, essentially, procurement officers that, when they can, they should come to CORCAN because they're contributing, essentially, to a government program with public safety in mind. So, with that, essentially, framework, we've been able to establish really good relationships with key departments. You named Parks Canada, that's one that we were able to help with Jasper rebuilding efforts and looking at modular buildings, the Canadian Border Services Agency is another one that that we've partnered with a lot as of late. National Defence is another one that that remains an important partner with us, you know from, efforts going back, you know, when I was starting my career, like, the war in Afghanistan. So those partnerships have been extremely important for us to have a steady flow of projects of work to provide this real-life training environments for offenders.
Kirstan: Okay, so, we have farms in some federal institutions where inmates can work. We have textiles where they can make things from bedding to mattresses and other equipment. We have construction where we make desks for federal government departments, modular offices, if you will. What are some of the things if somebody's out there and they don't know about CORCAN, that you'd like them to know?
Kevin: Well we’re starting to do a lot more is in the construction field. So historically, construction for CORCAN was predominantly servicing the institutions for which there was offender labour, if you will, readily available and training opportunities for us. But given, you know, a need for modular buildings, that's really been an area where we've been able to expand and offer training to offenders in the community that are still under supervision under one of our community industries, essentially. So, a modular home could be for the most part manufactured in a prison environment and then moved to a community or to a location where the site’s set up and the installation takes place by other offenders that are in the community that are looking for employment and we can provide that transition.
Kirstan: And you talked earlier a bit about revenue, I'd like to explore that a little bit more. Do we pay inmates who work for CORCAN?
Kevin: Yeah, that's a question we get quite often. Given that CORCAN, and any on-the-job training that takes place in CSC, is really a learning opportunity, it falls within the same inmate payment structure as, you know, participation to programs, for example, or education. So, there's different rates based on engagement of the offenders in the correctional plan and an on-the-job training assignment essentially falls within that. So, there is a payment, but not a distinct payment compared to what you would get, for example, if you're following a substance abuse program, for example, or education.
Kirstan: And what about the revenue? So, the money you make from external clients coming in, where is that reinvested?
Kevin: It's reinvested fully into the program and it helps, essentially, finance things like vocational certificates. It helps finance things like capital equipment for subsequent training for offenders, for on-the-job training. It helps finance what we call transitional employment. So, I mentioned a little bit earlier that we had these community industries across the country for offenders who are released, if they're not able to find and maintain employment, they can come in one of these community industries and in that environment, they're getting paid minimum wage essentially, in a CORCAN environment as well with instructors. But there's obviously, you know, cost to all of these services that are being provided. But 100% of the proceeds are reinvested into the program for subsequent training, essentially.
Kirstan: Perfect. And so, inmates or offenders in the community who go through CORCAN also get, you know, skills that they can reinvest in their own life and basically keep our communities safer because I know research shows that offenders who are involved in meaningful employment and have stable housing, etc., are less likely to reoffend. I wanted to talk a bit about vocational training and, first of all, what is vocational training? Let's lay that out for our listeners.
Kevin: Yeah, sounds great. I mean, essentially if you think of the typical type of learning, be it classroom or be it self-paced learning that you do, like going through a curriculum essentially and then there's a level of testing, evaluation takes place and then you get a certificate saying that you have now acquired these skills that are certified, industry-recognized, essentially. So whether that's chainsaw safety training, whether that's, you know, the forklift training, there's a whole magnitude of training that we offer and in Canada, essentially, all the different types of employment fall within one of ten categories of a National Occupational Classification Code, essentially. We offer training in in seven of those ten categories. And when you look at the number of certificates that were issued, for example, last year we offered just under 24,000 certificates. Things like working at heights, so then, you know, an offender who would get on-the-job training, for example, on a roofing project would undergo the safety training and then would be working at heights. So then they're able to take that recognized, industry-recognized, certificate upon release and then when looking for employment, you know, that's something that they can promote and hopefully help them find employment.
Kirstan: How does the training benefit the offenders in terms of the vocational training aspect?
Kevin: You know, I think success can be measured in a number of ways. You mentioned obviously finding employment is what is sought after as the ultimate goal because, you alluded to this little bit, you know, offenders who are employed in the community essentially are three times less likely to commit a crime and come back in custody, so that's important. That's always kind of the, you know…
Kirstan: The end goal.
Kevin: The guiding star, if you will, exactly. But success is in a lot of different ways and success is also an offender who, for example, takes chainsaw safety training and then goes back into their community and helps with, let's say, wildfire remediation with, you know, cutting wood that is in a danger zone. You know, success is also an offender who takes, for example, a food safety course, gets certified and then is able to cook for their family with confidence in a safe environment. Success is also that offender who, you know, going through the on-the-job training program failed from, you know, controlling their temper two, three, or four times, and the fourth time it clicks, because of the training and the collaboration and the coaching that they've experienced. So, success, I think, takes many forms. The angle, obviously, is employment, but it's also what I was talking to a little bit at the beginning with pro-social behavior. Because, at the end of the day, when an offender is reintegrating into the community, we want to make sure that they are contributing in a way that is meaningful and pro-social.
Kirstan: And just for our listeners, because you talked about chainsaws and tools: how do we ensure safety at the sites?
Kevin: Yeah, that's a good question because obviously we have different correctional environments, right? So what we can, for example, facilitate at a minimum-security institution, may not be the same type of environment that we can we can provide in a maximum-security institution for those same reasons you mentioned around safety. Typically, if I think of chainsaw safety, you know, would be running in a minimum-security institution where essentially there's a level of assurance that, you know, some of those security measures are sufficient to provide a safe environment. So we really, if you will, adjust to the environment in question, but the basic safety things like a tool control, so, if you think, we call it a shadow board, if you will. So, when you have all these different tools on a board, if you're taking a hammer, you know, for the work that's being carried out, at the end of the day, there has to be a hammer placed back on this shadow board. And you can see it visibly right away that you know, this missing hammer. So then, you know, there's these safeguards that are established and built into the correctional environment in question.
Kirstan: And so there's some rigorous oversight too. I know that I was in one place and they were saying, you know, we were missing a knife, but then we searched and somebody inadvertently threw it in the garbage with potato peels, so it's not always taken for the wrong reasons, but I think those protocols are really useful because of course, we're in a correctional environment. I do think, I know when speaking with offenders, the ability to give back is often something that comes up quite a bit. They want to be able to, in some cases, rectify some of the harm that they that they've done. And I know that in the Kingston area, at the farm, there was some examples of, you know, picking apples at the orchard and donating them to the food bank and growing vegetables and donating them to people who may not have a reliable source of food and, you know, the rebuilding of communities that may be at risk due to climate change and fires, flooding, etc. So do you see that a lot?
Kevin: Everyday. There's a pride in the work that's accomplished and obviously when it goes towards a cause, you know, you talked about Jasper, for example, the wildfires, and we experienced that a lot with National Defence as well. When the offenders have a broader understanding that their contributions are directly, you know, helping others, there is that sense of pride that I think is, again, part of the rehabilitation process when you think about it, because it is drilling this pro-social behavior that, through contribution, through work, that you're part of something bigger than yourself and that really is the foundation of, I think, community reintegration.
Kirstan: And for you specifically, what's been most rewarding for you in this long career at CORCAN?
Kevin: There's a couple of cases that come to mind, but there's one situation where the management team, we were in Moncton, NB, we were meeting in the same location where we have a community industry and we had an offender come talk to us. They're about a week away from reaching their warrant expiry date and they had been into a maximum-security institution, you know, 20-plus year sentence, and the offender there wanted to come in and thank us. He had found out that we were meeting there because again, the CORCAN worksite was just beside our office, and he wanted to thank us, the management team, because we were there when, essentially, when he was ready, when he was ready for us. And, again, he was sharing that he had, you know, he had demonstrated certain behavior in the past that got him escalated to a maximum-security institution and then one day it clicked and then when it did, it doesn't matter if it’s the third time, the fourth time, someone was there to provide that support and got him on the way. And we were all kind of teary-eyed when we heard his story. I mean, this person was being released and had already had employment secured as a CNC operator in a wood manufacturing shop, and to think, you know, that the contributions that that you do, sometimes it's hard, you know, you get lost into the paperwork and, you know, the administrative element, but when you see that, you know, kind of first-hand experience, it definitely is touching and it puts perspective on what we're doing here.
Kirstan: Great. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your insights.