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How many times have you tried to understand ADHD...and were left feeling more misunderstood? We get it and we're here to help you build a shiny new relationship with ADHD. We are two therapists (David Kessler & Isabelle Richards) who not only work with people with ADHD, but we also have ADHD ourselves and have been where you are. Every other week on Something Shiny, you'll hear (real) vulnerable conversations, truth bombs from the world of psychology, and have WHOA moments that leave you feeling seen, understood, and...dare we say...knowing you are something shiny, just as you are.
Something Shiny: ADHD
The ADHD Reframe That Changes Self-Esteem Completely
Drop Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2026
*this episode transcription was auto-generated and might contain errors
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ISABELLE RICHARDS: [00:00:00] Hello, I'm Isabel, she, her, hers.
DAVID KESSLER: And I'm David, he, him, his.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And we're two therapists with ADHD who sit down to have some chats about ADHD. We can't promise we'll stay on topic- Or be professional Or even remotely mature, but we can promise that you'll end up looking at you or your loved one's beautiful neurodivergent brain in a shiny new way.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: This is not a therapy session. This is Something Shiny.
DAVID KESSLER: I love it. Can this just be the intro of you saying that and me freaking out about how amazing it is?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So without further ado, welcome to Something Shiny.
DAVID KESSLER: I've been thinking about self-esteem totally differently, as, like, the entire self-esteem movement of, like, the, the '80s, '90s, in terms of you could be anything. And I think the idea that self-esteem is feeling good about yourself or having a good self-image or believing in yourself, [00:01:00] I don't agree with that being attached to self-esteem at all.
DAVID KESSLER: And I think when we talk about it as, like, "You gotta feel good," or, "You gotta have some self-esteem," it's like when we talk about it like that, I think we set up a context where people can't be successful because they're sitting there anxious, they're not believing in themselves, and they're trying to do something.
DAVID KESSLER: They're like, "Well, if I don't believe in myself and I'm doing this, I must be doing it wrong." I don't disagree with Bandura. Like, I think, you know, I subtly disagree with some of the ordinal stuff. But, like, Bandura would say, like a, like self-esteem, like, happens, but really it's about self-efficacy. Like, it's this development towards self-efficacy that's super important.
DAVID KESSLER: Self-efficacy, uh, is like knowing the ingredients to success. Like, knowing what you need, knowing the variables that help you succeed. Like, "Oh, I didn't run my best race because it was too hot, and I run the best in 70-degree weather." Like, knowing that is self-efficacy, right? And continued self-eface- efficacy use would make somebody have perfect global self-esteem, according to [00:02:00] Bandura.
DAVID KESSLER: Like, then all of a sudden they feel good about who they are as a, as a whole person because of all their, all their, like, tools and finagling that they have. And I think when it comes to neurospiciness, I would flip that model on its head, and I would say, like, self-esteem is the inherent belief that you will survive.
DAVID KESSLER: Like, that there will be a burning wreckage that you will crawl from. If, if it doesn't work right, like, you will survive it. You might have a scar, but, like, you will survive. And I think, like, knowing that you will survive something is a very different threshold than I will enjoy something, I will be competent at something, I will do something.
DAVID KESSLER: And then I think about it like this, right? If you survive, you build skills to know how to better survive it next time or what thing to not do. And so because of self-esteem, you're building self-efficacy. It's like the 80/20 rule. If we do the thing that we didn't wanna do and we learn why it was great or not great, we have self-esteem [00:03:00] from the experience.
DAVID KESSLER: But if we don't do anything, and we're just worried about it, it's injurious to our sense of self because we don't know if we can survive the thing that we were worried about.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Whoa. Man, I mean, you, you started with the truth bomb. This is like
DAVID KESSLER: I, I've been thinking about this.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Hold on while I scoop my brain parts off the floor and put them back into my cranial cavity.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Holy goodness. Okay. So almost, like, all the parts of me, all the aspects of me, I can suck at some things, I can be great at some things, but I kinda overall know I am worthwhile, I am worthy. I have the warm fuzzies when, you know, I consider both my strengths and my limits. Yes. Like, I... Yeah. Okay. So what you're saying is, especially with Neurospice, right, f- that is a setup for a bunch of reasons.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: One, I mean, I'll speak on from my, the autism side of the aisle at the very least. I hear something like, "Believe in yourself," and I go, "That's completely [00:04:00] nebulous. That is too abstract." Mm-hmm. "That means nothing to me. What do you mean believe in myself? I do believe in myself. I am made up of atoms and particles.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I am here." Like, what? Like, I genuinely struggle with the concept of, like, how does that really, what does that mean? You know? Like, help me understand concretely what that means. And what I also think about with ADHD, then, is the way that, like, on a given day, I might believe in myself so much. And then sometimes by the end of the day, I believe in myself negative 89, you know?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. Like, it feels so completely at the mercy and the whim of my environment and what I did, and Nora, sweet Nora epinephrine coming in. And you know, like, it, it is so... It's not, like, a choice, right? It's not like I can, like, decide I believe in myself, right? So, and this makes me think about, like, and I think this is borrowing from the h- like, Hallowell and Ratey, the VAST idea where they talk about...
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Okay, we'll put this in the show notes too, but it's, like, another [00:05:00] way potentially to think about ADHD is variable attentional stimulation seeking trait. Like, read... Are you so excited as it... Wait.
DAVID KESSLER: They, they, they got the VA part. I'm, I'm stoked. At t- you know,
ISABELLE RICHARDS: like- I know, the variable, right? Yeah. Like, variability of attention.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So VAST is, like, a, like, a, a word they're using. If you read the book ADHD 2.0, it's, it's also talked a lot about in, like, certain trainings and stuff, but we'll put it in the show notes. I guess the takeaway is, right, is aside from just trying to not keep pathologizing ADHD and giving it this big misnomer, 'cause yes, it is not a deficit of attention, it is a variability of said attention.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: The thing that they name is, like, it's almost like if you picture, you know, the neural networks of your brain, the- we'll say non-ADHD assumption, right, that people walk around with is that there's, like, the elevator music of my brain, and then there's, like, the task positive, like the thing I can choose to do.[00:06:00]
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And one of these gets really quiet while the other gets loud. So let's say I'm walking down the street and someone says, "Oh, look up at the sky. Is that a bird or a plane?" You look up at the sky and you can go, "Oh, yeah," suddenly all the elevator music, all the other things I was thinking about, all my other worries, cares, they fall away, and I'm able to look right at that weird object and help figure out what it is.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That's the assumption, right, most people walk around. To me, that feels so similar to this, right? It's like, it's almost like baked into this concept is the idea that I am consciously, with full agency, able to literally hit a brake system in my own brain to switch where I am attending. You know? Like to go, "Nope, not there.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Instead, over here." And the point they make about ADHD is that picture all those levers and walls gone. Actually, all parts of the brain stay lit up all the time. There is technically no switch from [00:07:00] one to the other. The only time there is a switch is when there's a lot of adrenaline or urgency, right? So we've talked about that, like anxiety, anger, and threat happens, and then technically we're in a completely different zone.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It's more like survival-based zone. So the point is, is like we're sort of asking people to do a thing they built in are not gonna be able to do-
DAVID KESSLER: Yes ...
ISABELLE RICHARDS: and then being made to feel shitty about not being able to do it.
DAVID KESSLER: And they feel shitty because people are telling them they should feel good before they start.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And that's like, oh, God, David. That just hit me right in the feels.
DAVID KESSLER: The thing about self-esteem, too, that I would, that I'll throw out here, this is like a curveball, and I l- I love what we're ta- I love the 10, tension variability. Vast is amazing. Um, but I think, like, self-esteem is domain, environment, and task specific.
DAVID KESSLER: I think that your self-esteem can be very, very different in so many different areas, and the more [00:08:00] self-esteem you have, the more impulsive you're gonna be, the more confident you're gonna be, the more you're gonna be able to play. The less self-esteem you have, the more inattentive you're gonna be, the more anxious you're gonna be, the more this is about a survival skill.
DAVID KESSLER: I just need to survive and test, see what I can do to make it better. Like, I'm gonna bring cookies to this meeting this time to see if that makes the meeting any better. And then at the end of it, it's like, cookies helped. Now, now, now I know I can survive a little bit more- So you have these different, like with Neurospice, we're looking at a person that's gonna have very different parts of themself developed.
DAVID KESSLER: So some parts of them are gonna have incredible self-esteem in some areas, and the other parts are gonna have very low self-esteem, and they're not gonna be able to have any compassion for why they can't do it. I- like, if I have self-esteem in this area, why don't I have it right here on demand, right?
DAVID KESSLER: And it's like, well, you've never done this before. Yeah, but I've done something 300 times harder. But you've never done this. And I think that, [00:09:00] like, we don't... We need to have compassion for the parts of us that we almost have to ignore to survive, that don't get self-esteem work, that, that start feeling better, like, when we start learning about, like, our neurodiversity, what our needs actually are, why things have been...
DAVID KESSLER: So all of a sudden, you know, understanding can reduce suffering and make a person believe they can survive more.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh my gosh. Again, I'm, like, sitting here going, "Argh." I feel like parts of my brain continue to leak. This is so gross. I'm sorry. It's, I feel like it's leaking out of my ear as you're talking.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I'm like, "Ah, no, come back. Come back." Oh my gosh. First of all, just to name, on a personal level, this is, like, of course, it always is, David. When is it not? But it is so resonant right now. I'm like, this helps give a sense of peace, I think, to exactly that feeling of feeling so, like, scattered in where it's like you feel so good and so bad.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, I'll use myself as example. I really like nice spaces, pretty things. Like, I'm really [00:10:00] drawn to art and beauty and, you know, not a shocker. I'm very visual. But aside from, like, maybe making cool crafts or art or things that, like, sometimes I like, sometimes I don't, I was never really great at, like, putting a room together.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It's just I am so gosh darn determined to gain a sense of, "I got this," in myself when it comes to choosing things. 'Cause, like, point is, is, like, I would get massive decision fatigue any time we would literally be talking about, like, where do you put this lamp? It seems so silly, but it would make... It would mean a lot to me, and simultaneously I felt lo- completely lost, always gonna make the wrong choice.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I suck at it. Like, if someone had told me, "Oh, but you've got... You know, you can do this. All it is is just buy a rug, buy a couch, buy a lamp," you know? But the experience of literally, like, putting myself through the frustration and the reps of just, l- like, almost like f- like, it sounds weird, but I feel like I almost force [00:11:00] myself to, like, watch design shows.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I force myself to, like, read a ma- and then what has happened is right now I feel very peaceful When I am faced with decisions about it... A side note, I found, like, books that tell you the math of it, and that was amazing for my brain. But it's such a different way of feeling good about myself than... And I'll just be so blunt.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I think a lot of the things I'm good at, I don't quite know why I'm good at them. Does that make sense? Like, I didn't have to work at it this way. It makes so much sense. Okay.
DAVID KESSLER: It makes so much sense. I want to pour validation on this. Like, I, I see you and I know you, and so, like, for other people that have met you, I'd want, I'd want them to all know, like, you are really good at art.
DAVID KESSLER: You have... You are really good at, like, colors and drawing, and your sense of style is, like, pretty on point. And so when you said, "I don't know how to design a room," like, my eyes turned into dinner plates. I was like, "What? You d-..." Like, I would just assume that you would immediately do it, but then as you're talking, right, how many hours have you spent drawing [00:12:00] or colors or outfit stuff?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, gosh. I mean, since I was little, right? Forever.
DAVID KESSLER: How many hours have you spent redesigning a room?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: You're right, not very many. No. '
DAVID KESSLER: Cause
ISABELLE RICHARDS: also we rented for so long that, like, I would never really do a lot, yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: So you have no self-esteem in knowing what thing, like, knowing about your ability in reorganizing a room.
DAVID KESSLER: So when you thought about getting started, you didn't... You were like, "I don't know what this is gonna feel like. I'm not sure what to do. I need to learn more. I wanna watch somebody else do it."
DAVID KESSLER: Yeah, yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: And so you watched other people do it to gain experience, and then think, "I could do this." And then somebody needed to tell you-
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm
DAVID KESSLER: "Isabel, you're not gonna know where things are gonna be. Just throw them in some places and then look at it and see what you like, and move the things you don't like."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yes. Side note, there literally, I believe she's neurospicy. There's a host on one of these design shows, The Art of Vintage, I'll put a link in the show notes, I really love her.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I'm- shouldn't assume she is neurospicy. I just sort of tend to think any time someone is really awesome [00:13:00] and creative it's just my own bias. Um, but she's very awesome and creative, and has, like, such a cool way of describing things. And there was... Okay, I kid you not, there's a scene in the show, 'cause you usually just see everyone make it look so easy.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I think that's maybe hidden in all this too, is the way that, like, we're always showing people our outsides, not the insides. And so even on TV or shows or even us talking, right? Like, you're not hearing, you're not hearing me in the middle of my sob fest the other day because I legit was like, "I think I got the wrong lamp," which is so silly.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I, like, know this is nothing. The world is on fire. This is so dumb of me. I can feel- No, you
DAVID KESSLER: m- it's really distressing 'cause you don't know it until you see it. It sucks.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: It sucks. It's a loss. It f- I feel, I feel so s- Yeah ... it's such a scary proposition in a way that feels like the stakes, it's like there's no bottom to it.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I have no net when I try something new. That, I don't know if that makes any sense, but it's like the stakes are so high, it feels so weird. And illogical, but, like, I can't help it. So I'm watching the show, and suddenly I hear her [00:14:00] literally go, "Ah." And I am immediately drawn to that sigh. And there's a scene, and they kept it in the show.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: She's sitting down in the middle of this room, and she looks like she's about to cry. And she looks around the room and she goes, "So here's a part of my creative process where I just descend into self-loathing and I'm convinced I cannot do a thing, and every choice I've ever made in my entire life is wrong.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And so I'm going to go home and go to bed, 'cause that's what I need to do, and I already know that I will come back tomorrow and it will feel different."
DAVID KESSLER: Self-esteem based on experience leading to self-efficacy.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Doesn't... Okay, 'cause I got chills hearing that, and I was like, you mean that is something I can plan on happening?
DAVID KESSLER: Yes.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: You give me permission to have that?
DAVID KESSLER: And then all of a sudden seeing someone else do that in that vulnerable moment lets you know that you're not doing it wrong because you [00:15:00] feel that way.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh my gosh, no wonder. Gosh, this goes so deep, because you're right. Like, so much of the wounds, right, that idea that, like, we're not necessarily having to l- we're having to repair, you know?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, go back and patch up the holes. That sense of I'm doing something wrong, and I'll be the last to find out, honestly, with me, but also in general, like, I, there's... No one's gonna g- give me the, the keys to figure out what's going on. The, even that sense internally of, like, I actually do have to figure this all out on my own, 'cause I don't know that anyone around me appears to be struggling the way I am.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: You know, that idea of, like, also it feels like I need a different set of instructions than what's being given. So even when someone, out of the kindness of their heart, like, right, I had a friend come over and go, "Oh, do this, do this, do this, do this," and it was amazing. I think she was right, right? But I literally almost burst into tears afterwards 'cause I was like, h- I, I kept asking her, "How do you know [00:16:00] that, though?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, how?" "I don't know, you just practice." I'm like, "But how do you practice with giant objects?" I'm so confused.
DAVID KESSLER: How many times has that person moved?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That person has moved a lot, and they're also a stager. So they've literally practiced-
DAVID KESSLER: Do you see it? ...
ISABELLE RICHARDS: setting it up. Yeah, you're right.
DAVID KESSLER: So how much self-esteem- Oh,
DAVID KESSLER: yes
DAVID KESSLER: and so it'll make you feel incompetent, but really it's like they're level 30 in moving big items around, and you're a level two because you've done it, like, three or four times since you've been an adult.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: And I mean, to, perhaps to a fault, but I, like, will... I'm like that person who's like, "I'll just keep this one thing for my whole life.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Why do we need another?" So it's also, like, the play of it was non-existent 'cause it was just copy, paste, copy, paste. You're so... I never thought of it this way Is this also like, I mean, this can extend to school, this can extend to work. This is like when people get a promotion and suddenly they're like
DAVID KESSLER: So I think it looks like the, the end, the, like the final stage of this is dynamic recursion, which is a fancy, fancy word, but like think about a [00:17:00] double helix or DNA, that these things are spiraling together, hitting each other, and then spiraling together and hitting each other and building off of each other so that there's a forever dance of self-efficacy and self-esteem.
DAVID KESSLER: More leads to more in specific places in life. And, and I think that there is a global concept, like I like what Bandura gets to, like a global sense of worth. I'm not gonna call that self-esteem, but I think that there is this place that I say is metacognition, right? Yeah. Which
ISABELLE RICHARDS: would
DAVID KESSLER: be like where you know that you don't have self-esteem, so you're nice to yourself because you haven't done it before and you need to build something.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh my gosh, and yes, the way, I mean, what you're talking about is almost like, like yeah, like the self-perpetuating feedback loop, right? Because if you're kind to yourself as you go and approach a really scary, hard thing, then you're more likely to-
DAVID KESSLER: The survival of that thing makes you feel better, makes you do another thing
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Be nicer to yourself, yeah.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh my gosh, the self-compassion feels really key [00:18:00] in there, too. Like, the sense of like, and this me- like you're saying, metacognition, like it's really hard to have compassion for myself about this, right? 'Cause I kid you not, like I pick a judgment about it. Even in introducing it I think I said out like seven disclaimers and judgments, right?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. Like, it's almost like I'm trying to signal I really judge myself for this being what it is for me. And yet what you're saying, it's so true. It's like now that I understand it, why I do that or like why that is as hard as for me as it is, it is way easier for me to be compassionate toward myself- Right
ISABELLE RICHARDS: be patient with myself, and not, and really like recalibrate my expectations of myself. Like literally just now, David, you calling me a level two has made me go, "Oh, that's right. Oh, I feel so good. I don't have- Yeah ... to be level three." Right. Like, yes, please. Mm-hmm.
DAVID KESSLER: It's not about like hurting a person's feelings, it's about giving yourself an honest starting place so our expectations are in line [00:19:00] with our performance.
DAVID KESSLER: Like, I love the Olympics, by the way. Like, I love games. It's like the best ever. Y- show me any sport that I never get to see and I'll watch it. But I was hear- talking to a friend of mine and they said I, you know, they were, they were reading this thing around satisfaction and disappointment and how much harder it is for someone that comes in second place than comes in third place And if you win, it's great, right?
DAVID KESSLER: But if you're coming in second, and I would, and I would assume, like, a silver medal's great. I would like, I like silver. Like, but apparently if you have the silver m- medal, you have all the thoughts of what you could have done to win. You were close enough. '
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Cause you're so close, right? 'Cause you're so
DAVID KESSLER: close, but third
ISABELLE RICHARDS: place- Like, it's actually reasonable for you to maybe on a different day- Mm-hmm
ISABELLE RICHARDS: with a little tweak, to have been gold, right?
DAVID KESSLER: And, and it's like, to be third place or, you know, fourth place or fifth place, it's like you, you... There isn't a single thing you could have done, and so you can feel better about how you placed in the world, right? Mm-hmm.
DAVID KESSLER: And
DAVID KESSLER: then I think about all these athletes, and I think about, like, how often they've finished [00:20:00] anything but first, and I just think about how absolutely devastating it would be to be second in the Olympics.
DAVID KESSLER: And you're not allowed to be devastated. No one w- everyone would say, like, "Cheer up, you got second place." And if you said, "I hate you. I've been working for gold. I'd, like, if I wouldn't have sneezed..." Like, they can't say that and get validation anywhere. So if you came in second in the Olympics, and, like, you're secretly really angry and pissed that, like, you didn't get gold and there's no one that you can complain to, I, I feel your pain.
DAVID KESSLER: I can't imagine how hard it would be with no experience coming in second and then having that replay in your life. And you have to have some compassion for yourself. How many Olympics have you been to?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, my gosh.
DAVID KESSLER: You don't have a lot of self-esteem when it comes to Olympics.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That is such a, ugh. First of all, yes, wholeheartedly agree.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Adore Olympics. But you're right. Like, in a way, even when you're a m- multiple Olympian, right, like, it is still such a small [00:21:00] sample size of that level of stakes and competition and attention and all those things. It's just like you're so, it's like, yeah, you're so raw. I almost, it makes me think, I know this is weird, but what I'm thinking about is, like, wow, I feel like suddenly I'm thinking about things like doing my taxes.
DAVID KESSLER: Yes.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Maybe that's why I hate it as much as I do. Yes. Is 'cause it's only once a year.
DAVID KESSLER: I've, I've no self-esteem around, around taxes. We, we have someone do it.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But you're right. Like, we've... Even when we say outsourcing is an accommodation, that's essentially what we're saying. We're saying, like, go find someone who does this all the time, and therefore has accumulated a more accurate self-assessment.
DAVID KESSLER: The dilemma, though, is outsourcing does not build self-esteem for you. You have to think about the ROI, like is this thing worth toiling to build self-esteem on, or is it worth, not worth toiling to build self-esteem on? What should I do? So for me, math is hard. I don't like mathing. I don't like keeping track of stuff and being organized.
DAVID KESSLER: I'm not really [00:22:00] good at doing, like, piecemeal work like that, so I would not wanna get better at doing the taxes, and it wouldn't, it w- I'd have a low ROI for, like, doing it quarterly, or, like, I could probably do it, spend a couple hours a week managing it. But, like, I don't know if the enjoyment I would get from those couple hours a week- would be worth it for me.
DAVID KESSLER: And so I'm gonna spend some money to outsource that and not build any self-esteem around taxes. But I know that if someone told me to do their taxes, I'd be like, "I have no idea what I'm doing." I wouldn't feel the pressure. But I wanna make sure I'm, it's clear. Like, when you outsource stuff, like, you're kind of acknowledging it's not worth seeing if you can survive.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh my gosh, that's such a good way of framing it. Yeah. That's so exactly it. Yeah. It's like, okay, I wanna know I can survive a lot of things, but on a scale of things I need to know I can survive, I choose not to do this one. Okay, here's a question, maybe it's a flip, but, like, could you see, given that feedback loop, though, could you see, like, in a [00:23:00] way embracing some of that?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, embracing some of... Like, what I think about a lot is, and maybe it's because I see it a lot in a lot of my clients and myself included, is, like, what a journey it feels like first when you figure out, like, oh wow, this, you know, ADHD, oh my gosh, this explains so much. Oh, I'm dealing with the guilt and the remorse and then the joy and then the da da, all the things.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But then there's, like, this point where it becomes really, like, a different relationship to, like, owning the things I can't do. When you- we talk about, like, our needs, right? Like, I can more clearly say nowadays... Wow, I'm, like, realizing this while I'm talking. I can more clearly say nowadays, like, "Oh, I think I'm done humaning for today," or, "My ears hurt, hurt a lot.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, I actually need to, like, not listen to this conversation for, like, half an hour and then I'll rejoin it. I'm so sorry." But, you know, like-
DAVID KESSLER: Self-efficacy.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah. But because I'm accepting the thing I can't do and I'm actually meeting [00:24:00] my need by doing that, I am actually building a sense of I can survive a lot more-
DAVID KESSLER: Yes
ISABELLE RICHARDS: because I can accurately gauge where and when to put my energy. Yes. So, like, i- is it possible that when I am outsourcing something like that very consciously, right, like taxes, maybe what I'm gaining self-esteem in is my ability to outsource.
DAVID KESSLER: Oh, wait, wait. That is, that is... You can gain self-esteem in outsourcing, but I think I'd wanna rebrand that, because outsourcing is an accomplishment.
DAVID KESSLER: Yeah. It's how much energy do you have other places where you're working on self-esteem because you didn't waste your energy on taxes?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, yes.
DAVID KESSLER: What are you gonna do with that energy that you saved by outsourcing? Where does that energy go? And getting practice on outsourcing. Like, if you don't, you've never done it before, that's terrifying.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: It's honoring, like, self-esteem comes with exposure or experience with neurodivergence in a way that isn't true- For everyone else. And our inability to take past learning with future behavior means we need more [00:25:00] exposure and we need to plan about what would make next time more survivable.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yes. Okay, so I mean, just to make sure I'm hearing right, a piece of this puzzle is that we're actually gonna need more reps, more at bats to build the self-esteem.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Here's a question. Does the exposure to whatever the thing is that you're feeling like shit about, does it have to be consensual for it to work? Like, I'm thinking like, okay, this is like leaning into like how you are tr- you know, like work with someone who has a big anxiety or big fear around something.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm. Evidence supports that like, oops, surprising them, you know, let's say they hate spiders, put them in a room of spiders without them knowing, without them giving a thumbs up is one, highly unethical, but two, actually increases their fear. Like, they don't feel better about it afterwards, right? They don't
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, even if they do survive, they don't feel like they had a say in them deciding they were gonna survive. So is a piece of it like you have to kinda have the awareness and the conscious decision about [00:26:00] it, or does it matter?
DAVID KESSLER: Uh, okay, so I'm g- I'm ... I, I hate what I'm gonna say here, but I'd say there's a difference between a phobia-
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, of course, yeah, yeah
DAVID KESSLER: so like the fears attached to somebody that's scared of spiders, like I'm not, that's a very different, that's all about agency. Otherwise you're terrorizing a person. Like, yeah, of course. You're
ISABELLE RICHARDS: torturing
DAVID KESSLER: them. Yeah, yeah. Well, shucks, the torture made the person more scared of spiders. No. But I, but I think that like outside of phobias, most humans are something called neophobic, which is scared of new things, and if we're scared of something new and we have no agency in whether or not we experience it, but we survive it, we do gain self-esteem.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, interesting.
DAVID KESSLER: But I, but I would say like there is power in control modeling where like if someone's dragging you through stuff, like no, because now it's, now it's interpersonal and I cannot trust a person, and that's not it. But like let's say you went on a car ride and you're gonna go s- check out the eclipse because like, oh my God, there's a full eclipse and it's only three hours from my house, and I'm gonna see this eclipse.
DAVID KESSLER: And so you go and you see the eclipse, [00:27:00] but when you get there, you, you never realized how much traffic you were gonna have, right? And so on the way back, you know, the three-hour drive takes nine hours.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm.
DAVID KESSLER: Now-
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah ...
DAVID KESSLER: you had no agency on whether or not you could, you could be in the car for nine hours. You had no choice in it, but that experience helps you the next time you're like, "We have a six-hour car trip," and it's like, "Oh, well, coming back from that eclipse, I had a nine-hour thing I survived.
DAVID KESSLER: I know I can do six." Like, so it's not all about agreement. It is about experience. It's not about power and control. The minute you think you know- What someone else can handle, we're in trouble
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Such a good point.
DAVID KESSLER: Yeah It, it's not about dragging people to things, but it's not about protecting everyone from the world either.
DAVID KESSLER: Shit's gonna happen
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yes You
DAVID KESSLER: know? Like-
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh my gosh. I mean, I'm thinking of, maybe this is a weird example, but I'm thinking of, like, there was, oh, there was, like, a show for a hot minute that y- yeah, I mean, I was so into. It was, like, something about, like, showing, showcasing different parenting [00:28:00] styles, like some reality show, and I was like, "This is amazing."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh
DAVID KESSLER: my God.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But it had a bunch of kids up on a high dive, and then what the point of the show was to work with the parents, which I really liked. Like, nothing about it was pathologizing the kids. It was all about, like, wow, let's, like, replay the tape and see how your style-
DAVID KESSLER: Yes ...
ISABELLE RICHARDS: met the kids' needs or didn't, and there were a lot of psychologists involved.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But point is, is I just remember this one episode. The kids were on this high dive, and, like, one family, I don't remember their parenting style. Uh, they, they, they did something like, "You got this," you know, like the whole family was cheering for the kid to do it. The kid jumps off the high dive, big smile afterwards, you know, da, da, da.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Another family kept saying, "It's up to you. You can jump or not jump, whatever you choose," right? And the kid chose not to go, and the family was like, "Yay, you made a choice. Yay," you, you know, gave the kid a hug. And then the third family was like, the kid's on the high dive and they're like, "No, don't back down.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: You'll regret it. No, no, no." Like, they were really, really [00:29:00] aggressive about, like, "Do it, do it, do it," you know? And the kid did it and was, like, really distressed about it as he did it didn't like it, and then was crying, and then the parents were kinda nice about it, but, like, you could tell they got, like, confused.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Point is, is it's like when you decide what someone needs to support them in whatever they're doing, you're missing the point. The real feedback loop to build self-esteem, it's also all the voices coming at you from your childhood, from your teachers.
DAVID KESSLER: I think, I think this is... This show is evil. I- I know.
DAVID KESSLER: But, but I think, I think this is where it's- Oh my
ISABELLE RICHARDS: gosh, reality TV and judges so much, yeah,
DAVID KESSLER: yeah No, no, what I, what I thi- what I think this is an interesting thing here. Like, we as humans hold more regret and pain around things we don't do or say compared to, like, saying or having done the wrong thing.
DAVID KESSLER: Like, if, if both those things have a yucky feeling attached, the not doing and not saying has a worse feeling. So there is some [00:30:00] data to suggest that if the kid really wanted to jump and they were validated for not jumping, that would create some kind of potential, uh, distress because they would regret, "Three years ago when we were at this thing and I never jumped, I wish I jumped," but maybe that helps them jump the next time, right?
DAVID KESSLER: But they would regret that The family that's screaming, "You better jump or you don't have a bed to sleep in," it's like this is- they're missing the point too, right? Because, like, yes, the best outcome there is them experiencing their fear and deciding whether or not they ever want to jump off a high board, you know, diving board again.
DAVID KESSLER: But I think that in either respect, if we're completely lauding the choice in either direction, I don't know, it's, it's hard for me. It's like, it's like I want you to make a choice, for sure, kid that walked down on this, like, diving board. But, like, I'm not happy you didn't do it. I'm not, I'm not mad that you didn't do it.
DAVID KESSLER: What made you decide not to do it? And what about doing this thing would've been different? And I'm curious about how you feel because you didn't do it, right? We're so quick to [00:31:00] pacify things or make them not a thing that I think we don't slow things down and have those, those processing moments. And I think self-esteem, like the kid that didn't jump, I don't think their self-esteem is damaged.
DAVID KESSLER: And the kid that did jump, I don't think their self-esteem is damaged. But I would say if both of those kids three months later miraculously appeared at a, at a place with high diving boards or whatever, the one that jumped would probably be more likely to jump.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I see what you're saying. It's almost like, okay, so not all exposure is gonna be consensual.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: You're not gonna necessarily enjoy the exposure either. Like, a condition of this is not, "I love this every moment," right? Like, you can hate it the whole time. The only thing you're gaining is, in a way, you made it. I can survive jump- You are on the other side of it- ... from that height ... and can look back on it.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah.
DAVID KESSLER: Yeah. And I think, like, for that kid, to your point, they, they would have a higher likelihood of jumping off the high dive, sure, but we're not talking about the kind of relationship they have with their parents.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah, [00:32:00] that's true. You know what I mean? So
DAVID KESSLER: it's like- Yes ... or the kind of self-esteem they...
DAVID KESSLER: Like, are their parents gonna love them if they don't take the risk? I mean, this is where it just gets more complicated than making people do things.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah. I guess, you know, I'm thinking about how, you know, it's, it, it can even boil down to something that is so frequent with ADHD, right? Like, um, sensory, eating stuff, right?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like textures, tastes, uh, smells, you know, aversions to certain flavors or foods. And I go back to the thing you talked about where, like, like that idea of a lot of idea- of a lot of don't completely avoid the thing the kid hates-
DAVID KESSLER: Yes ... '
ISABELLE RICHARDS: cause it is also a part of life, right? But when do you push? When do you not?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like, how do you push? How do you not? And I also think about that for myself internally, honestly. Like, when and how do you push yourself when so much of your script has been Just believe in yourself.
DAVID KESSLER: We have to, we have to find ways to make pushing ourselves safer.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: [00:33:00] Oh.
DAVID KESSLER: Like, pushing ourselves does not require danger.
DAVID KESSLER: And so I'll use food. Can I use food as an example? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 'Cause I think that's a great one. So, like, ordering something you've never had before is absolutely terrifying. I'm speaking to you, other ADHD person out there that orders the same thing when they go to the menu. Like, it's terrifying to get a d- a, a different thing, right?
DAVID KESSLER: Mm-hmm.
DAVID KESSLER: One of the things that I do when I go to a new, new place is I will get a whole bunch of different things with no expectations of finishing them. So the first time I go there, I will know, "Okay, this satisfies my curiosity. Wow, that bite. Don't want that ever again. Okay, cool. Know what it ta- " But, like, that whole process of knowing and safe experimentation makes it much easier for me to try new dishes.
DAVID KESSLER: But if every time I went to a restaurant someone said, "You have to pick one," I would be like, "Oh my God, I'm getting the same thing every time because I d- I'm so curious about this other sandwich, but it's literally not worth the risk of not liking it because then I have to finish it or go hungry." So how do we make trying a new th- So, like, you know, when I'm going out with my, with my family and we're going to a new [00:34:00] restaurant or something, I, I listen to what the kids say.
DAVID KESSLER: "What is that?" "I don't know." "That looks weird." "What does that taste like?" A- and if there's a consensus on something looking weird, I order it.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh.
DAVID KESSLER: In addition to whatever I'm gonna order, like, because I- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... I don't really wanna eat that weird, like, triple stuffed chocolate pancake thing or whatever.
DAVID KESSLER: But, like, I'll order that, and then they all see that I ordered it, and all their eyes go, "" And, and I go, "Oh, do you guys wanna try that?" And they go, "Yeah." And then everyone takes a bite, and they all have had tried, like, a new dish, right? And so that made it- Yeah ... safer to try a new thing.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That is such a good point.
DAVID KESSLER: You're gonna go do a sport. You don't know if it's gonna be good. That sucks. That's four hours in the heat. What do we wanna do afterwards? 'Cause, like, you're gonna be tired. You wanna go get some ice cream? If you do this weird thing, I'll take you to this weird
ISABELLE RICHARDS: thing.
DAVID KESSLER: How do we, right, like, how do we actively negotiate the ROI, the worth for the risk of stuff that we can modulate?
DAVID KESSLER: Ugh.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I mean, if it was even more possible, I don't even know if I have brain left in my body, 'cause it is all on the floor [00:35:00] again. Yes. Well, okay, I really like the distinction between, I mean, not to get too into the nitty-gritty, right, but it's not the same thing as bribery, right? Like- Yeah ... part of what you're trying to suggest is, you know, "Hey," like, "we can honor that this is not necessarily an easy thing, and it will carry a load for you to do.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So given that, given that in this case this is something we have some say in, like, how can we make it just less painful?" You know, like, just that much, like I think about, like, that idea of, like, the difference between saying something is safe and the person- Yes ... feeling safe, and how much that connects to, like, our sensory needs- Yes
ISABELLE RICHARDS: and duration measures. Like, hidden in a lot of what you just said, or not hidden, was, like, this is gonna last this long. Like, that thing we talk about even over the holidays where we're like, or the tip we give where it's like, "Hey," when you're, you know, you're doing something, like s- at a family dinner and you know it's really hard for the kids to sit there, just say out loud, like, "This is half-hour."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: [00:36:00] Yes. You know? And then stick to it. Uh, but don't lie. Don't say it's a half-hour when it's actually 20 years, right? Like, it's ... But how much that matters, actually, to lessen the pain of it and make it feel a little safer.
DAVID KESSLER: I was with a family member, and we were going to do a new thing that they were not looking forward to doing, and they said, "Do I have to do it?"
DAVID KESSLER: I go, "You don't have to do it, but I think doing it's a really good idea." And they go, "Well, what's the point?" And I go, "Oh, you might not like it, but when y- when we're done, we'll know what would make this thing easier the next time we do it, 'cause you'll have to do it."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, that phrase. Yeah. "
DAVID KESSLER: I'll have to do this?"
DAVID KESSLER: "Yeah, you'll probably have to do this six or seven times in your life."
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, side note, that's like shots. That's like kids with shots.
DAVID KESSLER: Yes.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: My kids with shots.
DAVID KESSLER: Yes.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: This makes me ... Okay, the rare moment, this makes me feel so much better, 'cause that is actually almost exactly how I explained it to my, one of my kids, who is still on the end of, like, receiving more vaccinations and such, and that was definitely way, a way I explained it.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I'm like, "All the things we can [00:37:00] do for today to make it just that much less, we're also gonna get so much data about how to make the next time even better, 'cause it is something you're gonna have to do every year," like with a flu shot or whatever it is. And that, I could see, it g- it was, I guess there's, I still hold onto that idea, too, that, like, part of what we're doing there, too, is we're not negating how hard it is, and we're not pretending you're supposed to like it.
DAVID KESSLER: Right. '
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Cause that's such a common thing. Like, "Oh, you're fine. It's no big deal. It's just a pinch, just a pinch." And it's like, "Oh." No, this is gonna
DAVID KESSLER: hurt. You hate this. How long do you want it to last?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah. Or like expect that this is gonna, like I love it when a provider's like, "You're gonna feel it, it's gonna burn for a minute.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Okay, it's, it's almost done and now it's done." Like they narrate and give you sense of okay, because- Predictability ... you know, yeah, the predictability. And maybe, and to be fair, like I, you know, I think we were talking about this earlier. I was coming off this autism specialist training, whatever that means, everybody.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Like some of this is like just a bunch of really great experts coming together.
DAVID KESSLER: This is how [00:38:00] Isabelle denies expertise that Isabelle is making. Isabelle, you know a lot about this. Don't off- Anyway, but yes, go on.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: You're right. You're right. Okay, call me on it. Call me on it. Clearly I need to build up some self-esteem in how I talk about the things I have expertise in, so I should uncomfortably right now say out loud, indeed, given the past several years, I do think I've acquired more data about some-
DAVID KESSLER: I was so close.
DAVID KESSLER: Okay. It's not easy. I think that, I think that there's a long life of being a, a, like, you know, a, a person and a professional and, and there's not a lot of practice of being an expert. Ooh.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Okay.
DAVID KESSLER: Does it feel uncomfortable to have an expertise in autism?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: No. Oh, I guess, okay, it feels, it feels new. That part feels uncomfortable, and I don't know because there isn't a real...
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I mean, literally this training is supposed to give you like a little certificate, but like [00:39:00] there, there isn't necessarily in our profession a moment where you can like definitively point to something, right?
DAVID KESSLER: It, it's also not just the one training. It's the- Yeah ... the trainings, the people, the work you've been doing for a very long time.
DAVID KESSLER: That certificate isn't what makes you an expert.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah. I-
DAVID KESSLER: But I think like- Yeah. But,
ISABELLE RICHARDS: but I
DAVID KESSLER: think- It's like Wizard
ISABELLE RICHARDS: of Oz. It's like, you know, you don't need the degree to
DAVID KESSLER: like,
ISABELLE RICHARDS: you
DAVID KESSLER: know- No. Lee, I care about you. Yeah. I know you're uncomfortable. Uh-huh. I know you're uncomfortable with what I'm saying. Okay. I'm saying it because it's real and it's unfortunately not connected with your comfort.
DAVID KESSLER: And if you invalidated your expertise to other people, it would minimize the work that you put into it and the actual knowledge that you're sharing.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That's true. It would under- it would undercut my-
DAVID KESSLER: And you have no self-esteem. You've never done, you've never- Yeah ... you know, felt like you were an expert in autism before the last year or two.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah, that's true. And, and it's interesting, right? 'Cause even, okay, one, I'm taking this in. You're, you're right. And I do think it is something maybe that I've more publicly been open [00:40:00] about even in our work together, and then it fe- it's, it's still, it's so interesting 'cause I still carry... Yeah, it's like I'm still level two at owning-
DAVID KESSLER: Yes
ISABELLE RICHARDS: maybe something I might be a higher level at than-
DAVID KESSLER: Might?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: No. It's so hard. I like can't say it. Okay, fine. I am appro- approaching being an ex- I can't do it. It's like, okay, I can. I can. I can No, but that doesn't work. Okay. Oh, the meta.
DAVID KESSLER: Would, w- if someone walked up to you and said, "Are you an expert when it comes to autism?"
DAVID KESSLER: What would you say?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, gosh. I would say, I would say-
DAVID KESSLER: They have tears in their eyes. I would say- They're looking for meaning in the world.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, I would say yeah, I can t- I'm happy- Oh ... to talk to you more.
DAVID KESSLER: Yeah. Wow. So quickly you own that expertise when that person is in pain-
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Yeah ... and
DAVID KESSLER: needs your help.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Well, 'cause, like, I know enough to know that I'm gonna know more than the average bear, and I know enough to know that I probably know more than the average clinician- Mm-hmm
ISABELLE RICHARDS: aside from the [00:41:00] others who are really deep in this work. I think the part where I carry my own insecurity is, like, yeah, like I haven't, I haven't, like, gotten a degree in developmental psychology. You know? Like, I haven't, like, done some of the things that these authors and trainers- Sure ... and experts are doing.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: So, like, when I think of expert, I think of that person. I don't think of me.
DAVID KESSLER: Isabel-
ISABELLE RICHARDS: But some, I guess context is everything, right?
DAVID KESSLER: Okay. Can you, can you point to my, uh, my certification in ADHD?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I mean-
DAVID KESSLER: Can you, can you point to that degree that I have in ADHD?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That's true. But you d- you've, but you've been, like-
DAVID KESSLER: Oh, wait.
DAVID KESSLER: Just- ... a speaker and an advocate-
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Wait. And- ... and done this all for
DAVID KESSLER: decades ... and so have you. So have you now.
DAVID KESSLER: Oh, that's weird. That's kind of true.
DAVID KESSLER: Mm-hmm.
DAVID KESSLER: Oh, I'm so
ISABELLE RICHARDS: uncomfortable, David.
DAVID KESSLER: I'm not, I'm ... It's just, it's interesting- Ugh ... and I'm just, I care about you. You don't- ... we don't have to keep any of this in. No, I
ISABELLE RICHARDS: understand.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: This is good.
DAVID KESSLER: But, like, you, but you- Yeah ... but it would almost be like imagine- A giant with lots of muscles-
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Mm-hmm ...
DAVID KESSLER: and you're standing in front of a [00:42:00] dresser, and you go, "Are you really strong?" And the person with, like, the 6'4", 300 person with muscles goes, "
DAVID KESSLER: I don't know about really strong." "I've met stronger people.
DAVID KESSLER: I've met people that can lift a house. I can only lift a car." And the person's like, "Oh my God, you're so strong." You go, "That makes me uncomfortable. I- I've seen other really strong people in my..." Sorry. All right. That's, that has to go down. That
ISABELLE RICHARDS: might be one of my favorite things. I, like, will hear that in my head now.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Okay. Yes, I'm an expert at autism, and I'm trying so hard not to add the asterisks and the caveats. Yeah. So we'll think about it. Did you like my big, strong person
DAVID KESSLER: voice?
ISABELLE RICHARDS: I adored your big, strong person voice, especially because I think if I did have an inner monologue, it might sound like that. I think it, it would sound a little akin to this.
DAVID KESSLER: Man, I don't know where that lamp's supposed to go. Sorry. I really ... [00:43:00]
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Oh, oh my gosh. I almost
DAVID KESSLER: want to- Oh, yeah. That's it. What's up? That's it. That's it. Oh,
ISABELLE RICHARDS: it's so good.
DAVID KESSLER: Thank you so much for listening. If you ever have that thought where you think, "Hey, I'm nothing," stop. Remember, you're something. Something shiny.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: That's right, just as you are. If you like what you heard and you want to hear more free episodes of this podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review anywhere you listen to podcasts. We're on Instagram as Something Shiny Podcast, and if you're looking for more information, useful links, definitions, visuals, everything we can think of and more is on our website at somethingshinypodcast.com, and it's all free.
ISABELLE RICHARDS: Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you in two
weeks.