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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite you to take a
moment in your day, this day, to pause.
Breathing in and breathing out, I'm
inviting you to do a different meditation.
Finding strength, finding power,
recalibrating to courage, and
honoring yourself in this very moment.
Breathing in and breathing out, the
invitation is to find your strength,
whatever that looks like
to you in this very moment.
Allowing the breath to come in.
and gently go out.
What does it mean?
What does it look like to honor strength,
to honor courage,
and most importantly, to honor yourself?
Breathing in and letting it all soften.
Watching, witnessing, and seeing
where you are in this very moment.
Taking a breath in, I invite
you to place hand on heart.
Taking a breath out, inviting you
to place another hand on your belly.
Taking this opportunity to recognize
where you are in this present state.
Now, With a gentle turn of the
head, acknowledgement of the past,
you witness where you've come from.
Gently and quietly gazing behind
your shoulder, potentially
feeling the neck shift,
and with a breath in and a breath
out, you simply rotate your neck to
the other side, moving right to left,
watching the past for just a moment,
inviting you to take breath in and
breath in, And one more breath out.
Taking two breaths in,
holding, and breathing out.
Now, turning your head forward,
inviting your head to rise, the
cosmos, standing strong, sitting
strong, finding a posture of
strength, courage, and grounding,
and remarking on what it's like
to be in this present moment.
Feeling the body, witnessing the heart,
And acknowledging the thoughts.
And when you feel called opening
your eyes to see the room and to
see yourself a little differently
than when you first started.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of the
psychedelic psychologist, where I
invite my guests to share stories about
their psychedelic experiences and cover
a variety of topics from overcoming
addiction and severe depression to
finding wholeness and spiritual emergence.
Today, I'm humbled and deeply
grateful to celebrate the 75th episode
of the psychedelic psychologist.
And so doing welcoming a wonderful guest.
And before I start, I'm going to also
share that at the end of this episode,
we're going to talk a little bit more
about aftercare grounding and finding
peace after an integration session.
I welcome and I'm deeply humbled
by Lakshmi Lakshmi, welcome.
How are you coming in?
I'm coming in.
I'm coming in calm.
I'm a little bit nervous.
Probably one of the first times I feel
like I've told my story, that's my story
in my way, so, but I'm honored to be here.
I'm deeply grateful and recognize
the vulnerability and transparency
in that, and Lakshmi, to hear you
say, it's your story, what does it
mean to you when you say, your story
and the way you tell your story.
How does that sit?
It's, it was foreign for a
while, but it means everything.
It's, I've told a lot of stories in
my life, but I've never told my story
or even listened to my story myself.
What a breath of fresh air.
Lakshmi, how did you find the medicine?
What was the invitation or what
did you recognize as the call to
start exploring the psychedelics?
My, my journey towards finding the
medicine actually started a long time
ago before I even knew what the medicine
was about 30, I'd say 30 years ago.
I was struggling as a like early twenties
in, there was something that I felt
that I couldn't feel and it was, It began
with reaching out to a psychologist.
I thought there was
something wrong with me.
Worked with her for a while.
She was dabbling in, I would
say, dabbling with air quotes.
Had just gone to a conference in EMDR.
And so she, again, air
quotes, tried it out on me.
And what I didn't realize, nor I don't
think she had the The The intelligence
to understand was that it worked, but
there was no, there was nothing around it.
So I terrified me.
I left, I stopped for quite a
while, and then started going to
another therapist later in life.
To have done a lot of the
somatic model modalities.
So I did EMDR.
And again, I gave it another try
and it, it did work, but I would,
I would say it was kind of like the
difference between using a transcript.
Yeah.
Broom to sweep off a patio
versus a power washer.
And then eventually what was
happening is I was just continuing
to sweep, lightly sweep, the same
things worked into brain spotting.
And the therapist I was seeing at the
time I moved to a different therapist.
Cause again, I just felt like I was.
Doing the same thing over and over again.
And this other one did
hypnotherapy and brain spotting.
And what I look back and realize now is
I was able to drop in so deeply in the
brain spotting that I was having these.
Kind of mini psychedelic experiences.
I just didn't understand what they were.
And my therapist at that time had enough
intelligence to understand that she
said to me, I, you're doing something
that I can't help you with your, I
don't understand how deep you're going.
I don't, I, I, you, I don't know.
And she didn't know where to send me.
So I had at that point, I think
it was out of desperation.
I did my research and.
I'd never done any of
the psychedelics before.
I'm not, I don't really
like controlled substances.
I'm not a drinker.
So for me, it was a last ditch effort
to figure out how to how to get to the
depth that I knew I was not getting to.
I had no expectations other than I just
needed something different to happen.
I found a, a source and then
thank goodness I reached out for
integration because the source
was basically a trip sitter.
So it would have been,
I make an appointment.
There's a day before the day
during and the day after,
and that would have been it.
And then I actually had gone
back online too, cause I couldn't
remember who I scheduled with.
And then I found your website as
an integrationist and went on and
said, Oh, I'll schedule a consult.
Fine.
Saw you were on maps as well.
And then I you got back
to me 10 minutes later.
And so thank goodness.
Because that's been the beginning of
now a four year, very slow, patient,
beautiful journey into what is me
allowing me to be on this podcast.
Well, and you're laughing,
but I need to echo and deeply
acknowledge the slow, the patience.
And the methodical research you
did and the trust, the intuitive
trust that you and I connected over.
And can you speak about our relationship
and what it means, the safety and
what's the value in having something
that's solid and strong over four years
and specifically what has it provided
you in your, your healing journey?
I, I think.
That's such a that's a great question.
That's a very big question that I also
don't think I would have been able to
answer at all until I knew, because
what I, what I didn't understand was
I was walking into a lot of situations
where not only did I not, I overtrusted
the, I overtrusted the care The
caregiver, and I didn't trust myself.
So what has happened during this very,
very slow patient journey is I have built
up the trust, not only in you, but that's
allowed me to build up, build up the trust
in myself, my intuition, my instincts,
trusting my body, trusting, trusting.
And it's a push pull.
The polarity is.
Is drastic, you know that it's not like
it happens the fact and I didn't know
what to expect with that first journey,
but I had a deep hope that everything
would just be fixed instantaneously.
And, and I laugh now
because there's been six.
And with each and every one, I think you
had told me at one point, they are, they
are not, they are not connected, but
they're all part of the same journey.
And I never would have been able to
understand that either until later
the Well, that's because you have
to hang out with me long enough
to listen to my weird metaphors.
So when I say connected, but not
connected, it takes about four
years to start translating me.
No.
Yeah, one, 100%.
Yes, absolutely.
And yet what you're speaking
about is so true, right?
This idea that each journey is its
individual self, but yet deeply
woven into the other journeys and
the journeys that are still to come.
How do you see that as you
integrate, what do you acknowledge
in old journeys versus new?
The they and.
Let me back up for a second.
It's, it's like, it's like, without
realizing it, each journey prepares
you for the next, but as a human and
the human experience, you want each
journey to finish something because
you want something to be healed.
You want it to be done.
You want like, Oh, I checked that box.
I did that.
Now I'm this, and that's not it at all.
Each.
Each journey is preparing
you for the next.
And now what I've finally discovered
again, after four years, is that
that's the beauty of the journey
because I'm, I don't have control.
I don't want control.
I'm learning things that I
would never have known, which,
which feels very scary, but is.
Is the most scary and the least scary
thing I've ever done in my life.
So, but that I would not
to go back to the safety.
There is no way that I would have been
able to do that, explore that, experience
that, understand that without slowly.
And carefully going through
this relationship with you as an
integrationist, because it, it doesn't
just happen at all, which, which
makes all the sense and no sense.
Yeah.
Well, you, and you've said this
in another form is we wouldn't
be here if we weren't there.
Where we were and to speak eloquently
of everything we have to go through in
order to build not only the trust, the
certainty and the healing, it takes
all those steps incrementally to get
to the ultimate altitude that we end up
finding ourself in the present moment.
Yes, that's yes.
And also I think one of
the other things that.
It has become so powerful to me is
I, I don't need to know everything.
And the first, I'd say
first four journeys.
, I needed to know, I needed to understand.
And as I become more and more, more and
more trusting in myself, my spirit, my
body, my mind, I, I just trust, and I
don't need to know, and it's that knowing
that lack of need to knowing that finally
gives me the freedom to be able to just.
finally be, I guess.
You got an idea of being, allowing it and
being present to your whole experience.
What is it that you're
personally integrating right now?
I know you and I do a deep amount
of work and recently within the last
month you had a profound experience.
What are you actively integrating
right now and recognizing
on your healing journey?
I would, there's, I, if there's no
one thing, but if there was a theme,
I think for me, for integration right
now, it's probably I had a very profound
discovery that was deeply traumatizing
to the the journey before this one.
So this last journey.
I felt very different because I was,
I had more, I think, which though
you, the words that we had used to
describe it was, I was more clear, pure.
So there was more space inside of me.
I'm not, I'm not I am not, I don't any
longer feel like I'm healing from trauma.
I now feel like I'm
unlearning and relearning.
How to, how to do things.
So for integration for me, I think
a lot of it right now is feeling
strong and confident and trusting
myself and not second guessing myself,
because even though I, even though
my instincts and everything go that
direction, my past self, will kind of
pull back that polarity that happens.
So I'd say that's a lot of it is sitting
within myself and, and having a lot of
conversations to myself by myself, which
is how I do a lot of my integrations.
I talk to myself a lot.
Yeah.
And I think there's value to it.
And I echo the idea of
talking to yourself.
I want to ask, similar to the meditation
where there's a look I hear you, so
you'll look back or you'll reflect back,
but there's no invisible loyalty to the
trauma that once gripped you and held you.
There sounds to me a recognition of
you holistically, but not staying
invisibly loyal to the past.
Yeah.
Loyalty is a great word because
I had, I was loyal loyalties.
I had loyalties tied to everything,
everybody, every circumstance,
every everybody's circumstance.
There was so much context and now the
ties even to the context are gone.
So it's like the context, the emotion,
the loyalty, a lot of that does not from
the past does not exist for me anymore.
From my learned self.
It, there's kind of that
unwinding of reminding yourself
that it's no longer there.
Yeah, it helps because it's
a discernment of sorts.
Laxmi, can you share with me what
your body is telling you right now
with that knowing that higher self?
It, there's, because I'm speaking
out loud, there's a little bit
of discomfort, but it, again,
it feels, it feels, It's softer.
It feels older.
It also feels a lot younger, actually.
So I'm, I'm comfortable, but
it's, it's relearning retraining.
And how much of that in your integration
practice with me benefits you to more
to come provides you more evidence
of your Ascension through yourself?
Oh, as we continue forward?
Yes.
Oh, that's a great question.
I, I think I, I had, and again,
I'll back up a little bit
because I did not have any idea.
Like I had no idea it was, there was
so much desperation in knowing that
there was something I was seeking
and not being able to find it.
And I had, I didn't understand what that
would look like, what, what it would
feel like, and then it all, it almost
became it like, I felt like I was on
a, like on a mission to, as we moved
forward and I kept moving, moving beyond.
And now that.
Now that I feel very clear and clean to
begin with, my integration felt like I
didn't know what I was supposed to do
because I'd been doing that for so long.
And as we've worked through this
and I've got better at feeling, now
I understand that I don't have to
feel that and I can feel new, I can
feel clean, I have room for play.
So the value of now I get to turn around
the other direction and face the sun and
then create a journey moving forward.
And now I look forward to something
that is light and playful and loving.
And so I don't, I don't see
this ever stopping for me.
And I love that and appreciate
everything about your expression in
this with still acknowledging we had
to go through those six journeys in
order to get to the place we are.
And sometimes that's a challenge
to your point earlier of hoping
that it's going to be a one.
Done, clear up everything and
put it in a nice little box.
What could you say to me?
And what do you say to yourself around
this incremental process that you're on?
How do you communicate with yourself
about being on that journey?
I think the way that I communicate myself
with myself about the journey on a daily
basis is just how I walk in the world now.
You know, and I, and there's also
something very comforting about knowing
knowing when the time, like I now,
my body now tells me my it's all of
a sudden I don't schedule anything.
My body just says, Oh, okay.
Something.
I think we need to, I think
we need to clear the path.
I think, and it's very strong.
There's no denying it.
And then I begin processing as soon as.
As soon as that feeling starts, so
it's all me in, in, you know, kind of
breaking bread with myself and my body.
Yeah.
Very high rhythm of intuition, of
listening, of watching, of dialoguing,
which again, speaking to talking to
oneself, there's a, there's a holistic
approach that you are discovering
when it's time to do it again.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
You get a sensation that you would have
ever expected being so regulated in
your nervous system and your healing.
Do you now understand deeper
because the experiences or what
provides you reassurance and feeling
regulated that it's going to stay?
You mean?
Yes.
Yes.
Because I did it, because I did it slowly
there, there's, I mean, That again, if I
go back because I can't, it's hard to talk
about where I'm at now without looking
back because it's, it's all nothing.
I couldn't, I wouldn't be here now if
I hadn't done every single thing that I
did and where I was was in a place of.
Of I was, I had PTSD, I ha I was
dissociating, I was dysregulated,
I was all of the things.
So my baseline, even if I, you
know, I, I realized we slowly, but
surely as we integrated in between,
you know, as Alan Watts said, I
picked up the phone, I listened
to the message and then I hung up.
And then I took what I heard and I
applied that and integrated in between
each one and, and it happens slowly.
It doesn't happen fast.
I, if I look, if I look back at what I
the thing, you know, what, what I did,
the discovery that I made, had I made that
in one journey, I would have been broken.
There would, I don't, I don't even
know what would have happened to me.
Well, there would have
been an overwhelm, right?
And I, to your point of the idea of
when we talk to people about doing
this work and you're such a wonderful
example of this is prepping people for
the long game, for the slow game and
for the patient game, because to your
point, if we discover something, be it,
we find the source and the meaning in
one session, our brains, our bodies.
aren't capable of absorbing that.
And I agree with you.
It becomes a way that people become
fractured or depersonalize even more
because they don't have the tools or
they don't have the incremental systems
in place to hold it, make sense of it,
and not be so threatened by it when
there is a discovery, say with trauma
or connection to God or divine source of
who we are is That could actually breed
psychosis in a way of spiritual emergence
that leads people fabricated and unwoven.
Yes, absolutely.
And I, and I, I love this
conversation because now I feel
like I can say that from experience.
It's not me speculating, speaking from
my own experience on every level of
that, feeling like I've, I've walked
through all of those ravines crevasses.
Deserts, whatever they may be, if I
had done it differently and not in
a safe place with a guide that knows
me, it would have been incredibly
detrimental to my emotional,
spiritual, physical health for sure.
Well, and to your point,
also now the mountains.
It's the wonderful oceans and the
vistas that are awaiting us, right?
This is the holistic approach of
integrating each one of our ages and
what's still to come on the horizon.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that was another, I think that
was another aha for me was it before.
You know, when I was doing other types
of therapies and, you know, I, I've
done a lot of talk therapy, which for
me was not definitely not the right, the
right thing, integration, talk therapy
during integration, completely different
because you are, you are actually.
Honing in on something and you're
finding something that you've felt that
you are, you are you've connected with
so that you can do something with it.
In all of the other therapies I was, I
was doing, it was just me talking myself
into a comfortable place, even if it was.
Not necessarily a great place.
I heard somebody in a podcast I was
listening to a while ago and the whole
podcast, the whole thing was talking
about bad trips and I thought, okay.
I've had some pretty horrible discoveries,
things that I have walked through, but I
wouldn't consider any of them a bad trip.
I would consider them to be me very
safely opening doors that I Are not
necessarily what you would want to walk
into, but I walked into them strong
and safe and, and now they're just
a part of me and how I move forward.
So I think a bad trip is.
Is definitely, yeah, that was very
great to piggyback off of that and
I have a little bit of challenge
and bad trips as well as it to me
resonates that if there's a bad trip,
and I'll be on record of saying this.
That either the session wasn't being
held with reverence and respect and
being held in a container for the person
to get through it, work through it,
or work in it, or be present to it.
And then, simultaneously, I'd wonder
if they had a safe guide or a safe
integration therapist to be able to
not placate them or minimize it, but
rather, to your point, integrate it.
Because I know your personal story and I
know the devotion that you've done to it.
So you once again have a hundred percent
validation and certainty of saying it's
a challenging trip and challenging at
its finest, but it's not bad or it's not
giving us information that we don't want.
Right.
And I think the integration of putting
a physical, emotional, or spiritual
experience together with talk therapy
is what makes healing and challenging
experiences are good experiences.
Understood.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
And, and I think to a lot of what
I was not expecting with the, the
journeys that like I didn't understand,
you know, you, you hear all these
things and they come from somewhere.
They just get.
Diluted, you know, like the body, the
body holds trauma, the body keeps score.
And it's like, Oh yeah, I get that.
And I've read all the books and I
totally, my, my brain understands it,
but I didn't really understand it.
And even the integration that we
did where we focused on releasing
all of that trauma and all of that
energy that, that I, I didn't even.
Have a concept of, and prior to that,
again, during talk therapy and what I
was doing before I was, I approached
the medicine as part of my journey.
I felt like I had to turn
over every single rock.
It's like, I had, I have to talk
about this and I have to know why.
And I had like every last thing and,
and I don't feel like that anymore.
It's good.
So important to say that, that we don't
have to be flipping over every rock.
Lakshmi, can you tell me
what are other ways that you
integrate beyond talk therapy?
What are the activities?
I often say integration is action.
What is action to you?
And what is integration for
you in the present moment?
I again, I'll, I'll reiterate,
I talked to myself a lot.
I, that's two of us.
And, and I journaling for me does not.
Does not really work.
And I would beat myself up because I
wasn't doing kind of the rote things
that I think people say you should do.
But, but I, I understand.
And now I respect and honor
that I don't want to do it.
So I do have a, an app on my phone.
That's an old school
cassette tape looking thing.
And I record myself and listen to
myself, which interestingly, the
recording it Not as powerful as the
listening to it back in my own voice.
That is a, that is very,
very powerful for me.
I listened to a lot of frequency.
I take a lot of baths.
I, I've started doing something
recently where when I'm in the
tub, I put my ears underwater
and I hum really, really deeply.
And that seems to calm, to
calm my body down and, and for
integration, I just am very aware.
So I'm, I try to be
very gentle with myself.
I know that's, that's been your mantra
with, with me since the very beginning.
So, so I eat.
Yeah, I just, I, it doesn't even feel
like integration anymore because when you
do a journey so slowly and you're slowly
adding in bits and pieces, it just, you
just kind of becomes how you are and
how you, how you walk on in the world.
Yeah, it becomes seamless and I'm
really enthusiastic that you went
there because at the end of the day,
I think integration feels so looming
or even psychedelics feel so looming
that how to place it in its right and
appropriate spot also feels challenging.
Yet, what I'm hearing from you is
that becomes seamless, incremental
and a way of your living.
So it's not like going
from radical to radical.
Oh yeah.
It's it's in my life.
It is the box.
I don't check anything having
to do with my journeys coming
out of them, going into them.
It's, it is the only thing
in my life right now that is.
You know, as a independent mother and all
the things, it's a box that I don't check.
My body tells me when my body tells
me when I need, you know, and, and
it's not, don't be confused when I,
I, when I go into a journey, I'm not
of any ilk that when I come out, it's
going to be all cause it never is.
It's hard no matter what, even
if it's not a huge discovery or
something, you're still integrating
back into something and everyday life.
Yes, absolutely.
And you're like, what is this?
My taxes are still on the table.
Okay.
But now I've looked, I look at it as, you
know, it's my bootcamp when I get back
in and I know that once that integration
takes place and I've, I've gotten
through it, it feels really amazing.
What would you say to the Lakshmi that
picked up for their first experience?
What's the advice you'd give somebody?
Maybe not just yourself, but
anyone that's on the precipice of
embarking on the psychedelic journey.
Wow.
I would say do not, I would say be serious
about the process, be serious about the,
the set and setting, find a, find a A
guide like yourself that you can have a
long term relationship with, I would say
be, be, it's not, it's, it's hard because
it's, Everybody's is so different, but I
think those are like the key components.
If, if you do that, that the, the, the
journey will, the journey will unfold
for you the way that it needs to.
But if you don't have that, you,
I would, I would, I would highly
recommend you don't do it at all.
Yeah.
Having the safety and all of
those, and translate as being
safe and being intentional.
And trusting your intuition and
continuing to listen to it and then
trust the people that have the education.
Yes, absolutely.
And, and that's, I think that's part
of what I am incredibly grateful for
with you is you are a guide, but you
are also you are also a psychologist.
So that, that is really, really, really
important to, to be able to fully lead.
Or not lead, but, but to be able to
fully understand because a lot of the
things, they're incredibly old and
there you've been, you've now not only
experienced whatever that trauma might
be, but you're also, you've also buried
it, you've stacked layers and layers of
other coping mechanisms on top of it.
So it's, it's a lot to unpack.
So that I think I would also
recommend somebody find So I had
a person that has that as well.
Lakshmi, in the art of aftercare, so
often our integration sessions are
full of emotions, full of physical
sensations, full of embodiment sensations.
What do you know to be true in
taking care of yourself afterwards?
After an integration session,
after a psychedelic session,
what does your body need and how
do you ground it and center it?
Think the biggest thing for me is I
don't put myself after the session.
I don't put myself into
everyday life right away.
I don't expect anything of myself.
For a day or two I don't have any
preconceived notions, I've gone from
sometimes I, I had, fresh fruit and all
these beautiful things waiting for me.
And then sometimes I end up watching
South park and eating popcorn.
So yeah, I think as I've gotten
or Rick and Morty, I think one
time, so I think as I've gotten.
You know, and that I think
is not getting used to it.
I think that is me being devoted and
now having the beauty of trusting,
trusting my body and my instincts.
I love everything about that.
Yeah.
And it changes each, each moment depending
on if it's a, 60 minute integration
session or your all day ceremonies.
You listen to what needs and
the places that it feels safe.
What are you doing to be
gentle with yourself today?
I'm going to respond to one more
thing before I answer that question
because there was another, there's
another really cool thing that happens.
When you have a long term, when you have a
long term relationship with like yourself,
I want to emphasize the
importance of a relationship.
Because what, what then happens with
all of the time and the trust and the,
the honoring of, of the patients of the
process, when we have a 60 minute, when
we have a 60 minute session it, I will go
sometimes as deeply on something and it's
almost like a a psychedelic experience.
Only I'm completely sober.
And that is, I, I also don't think that
would be available, nor what I want
that to happen in a different situation.
So it's a, you know, it's
like bonus, bonus material.
Yeah, and that to your point of
trusting yourself and being able
to surrender in those moments.
That's what I've experienced with you is
your capacity to have built a container
between you and I and you and your
healing to trust yourself to surrender.
Yes.
One hundred percent.
And it's, and it's, it's not a, it's
not something that happens in a week.
That's why it's a, it's a
symbiotic relationship, no?
Yeah, it is very symbiotic relationship
that I'm incredibly grateful for.
And I too, and yet I'm not
going to let you get out of
the way of the gentle question.
Lakshmi, what are you doing
to be gentle with yourself?
To be gentle with myself now in my life,
I am sitting outside a lot in the breeze
and listening to the wind and the leaves.
I brought, bought big, beautiful
gong chimes that I hang in a
tree that I sit underneath.
I walk barefoot.
I don't, I don't get caught up in, in
being perfect and I enjoy the moments
for all they are when they come.
I am humbled to be in your presence.
I am deeply, deeply, deeply humbled.
Thankful.
Expressive of what you did today
and how you show up in the world.
It's an honor.
Thank you.
Thanks Ryan.