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This week, Krysia is joined by Dr Precious Sango to discuss her research on the spirituality of autistic people and people with intellectual disabilities. She discusses how she came to research this topic, why it is important and a recent paper on autistic people in churches she wrote with Krysia.
The transcript of the episode is available here: https://share.transistor.fm/s/6dcca450/transcript.srt
If you have any questions, or just want to say hi, email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on twitter @autismtheology.
This podcast is brought to you by The University of Aberdeen's Centre for Autism and Theology.
The artwork for this podcast uses the Centre for Autism and Theology Logo, created by Holly Russel.
Creators & Guests
What is Autism and Theology Podcast?
The Autism and Theology Podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways in which both faith and non-faith communities can enable autistic people to flourish.
Our episodes are released on the first Wednesday of every month. We have a variety of guests who are related in some way to the field of autism and theology. Some are academics, others are people with life stories to share, and some are both!
We also release CATChat every third Wednesday of the month. These are shorter and more informal episodes where your hosts will share news and give you as listeners an opportunity to ask questions and share your stories.
Krysia Waldock
Hello and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology podcast. My name is Krysia
and I'm so excited that you've joined us this week. This podcast is a space where we will be
we will be engaging with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share
relevant resources, and promote ways that help faith and non-faith communities enable
autistic people flourish. Our podcast episodes are released on the first Wednesday of every
month. We have CATChat on every third Wednesday where your hosts share news and
answer your questions. The podcast is run from the University of Aberdeen Centre for
Autism and Theology, which we have shortened to CAT.
Krysia Waldock
Today I am joined by Dr Precious Sango, who is a Senior Lecturer in Health and Social Care at
London Metropolitan University. Hello, Precious!
Precious Sango
Hi all, thanks for having me! How are you?
Krysia Waldock
It's great to have you.
Precious Sango
Yeah, that's OK.
Krysia Waldock
I'm good, thank you.
Precious Sango
That's good.
Krysia Waldock
It's great to have you on and I guess it would be really good for listeners who haven't read
your work before to give us a little information about yourself and what you do and how
you've ended up on this podcast.
Precious Sango
I'll start off. And so, yeah, my name is Precious. And I guess I'll start with my educational
background a little bit. So I have a doctorate in Intellectual and Developmental Disabilities
from the Tizard Centre, SSPSSR at the University of Kent. So I completed this in 2015 and
defended in 2016. I remember I was pregnant actually, when I defended which is an
interesting, memorable time. So my doctorate is the same age as my second son, which is
interesting. Anyway, so this thesis looked at the significance of spirituality in faith and nonfaith based care services for people with intellectual disabilities and autistic people as well.
So it was, umm, conducted under the supervision of Professor Rachel Forrester-Jones -
amazing supervisor and we have her in common Krysia!
Krysia Waldock
We do!
Precious Sango
And Professor Michael Calnan was the 2nd supervisor, so I'm just giving them a shout out
because they were very supportive, especially Rachel.I mean, I always say I had the best
supervisor to do my thesis, especially when you hear horror stories about PhD, supervisions
and supervisors. But yeah, anyway, and that's kind of a little about me. I mean, I also have
masters in intellectual and developmental disabilities and a degree in psychology from the
University of Kent. So that's kind of a bit about me in terms of my educational background,
I'm not sure what else you would like me to say. Is that enough, Krysia?
Krysia Waldock
I think that's enough, and it what would be really interesting to know is what led you to do
your PhD on spirituality of autistic people and people with intellectual disabilities.
Precious Sango
OK, so it's a long one, but I guess cause of time, let me try and be brief. So it starts with my
own personal journey. So I do have a faith, you know, I believe I believe in, in God, in in Jesus
I'm a Christian. And when I was young, right, living in Nigeria - OK, so I'm Nigerian and British
- So when I was young, living in Nigeria, I had a friend - family, you know, because being in
Nigeria, you grow up with different kids around you, right?
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
So there was this friend of ours that would call him, who was disabled, right. But now,
retrospectively, when I think about that, I feel like he may have been - he may have had
cerebral palsy and been on the autistic spectrum, right? But because of this stigma attached
to this abilities in Nigeria, then this was many years ago, but it just take my still there even
today unfortunately. But anyway, usually I remember there was one time we were going
somewhere in the car, right? I told you a long story, but bear with me. I'll get to the main
point, but we were we were going somewhere. I think we're visiting either going to a party
or I was really young, but anyway, so we were going in a car to go to this place and he was
gonna come with us. But someone told him not to get in the car and that really made an
impression on me. I was really sad. Like that, you know, and again this is kind of me seeing
all the stigma and the kind of discrimination surrounding, you know, and anyway, so that
was one instance. But apart from that, when I came here many, many years later, I met a
friend who is, well, they don't call it Asperger anymore, but on the spectrum. And they were
a really good friend and they were a Christian as well. And I remember thinking, this is
interesting coming from Nigeria and the way people viewed people who are disabled or who
are different, let's say, right compared to here. I mean this is quite different. I mean, this is a
friend of mine. They are – I mean – they are like me. We both have a faith We discuss
theology and you know there's nothing different from them and me, right? So and I'm
thinking this is interesting. Why is it that no one is actually looking into not just the stigma
surrounding disabled people in Nigeria or in developing countries, but also here as well?
Because yes, mind you – yeah, I came here many years ago. I've lived here. I've worked in
services as well and I see you know, hints of stigma as well attached to people who are
different, right? But here's a friend of mine. They’re, you know, intellectually sound. I don't
know there's any difference, right? But unconsciously, there's always that bias, OK. That you
you cannot seen around you. But then here we are debating theology. We both have
relationship with God and it's quite meaningful for both of us and I'm thinking, why is it that
no one is actually looking into this?
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
Like, why is it that no one is looking into the spiritual lives or the meaning of it? If there's any
of people who have, you know, intellectual disability or people who are autistic, right? And
even when I was doing my undergrad psychology and I took one module, I remember with
the Tizard Centre - I think it's called Learning Disability module. I can't remember if that's. I
think I don't know if you took it as well, Krysia, but it's one of the learning disability module
is like an optional module. You get to take which the Tizard Centre delivers, and yeah, that's
how I can I came across disability studies properly right, and even in my reading and in my
research in my work and assessments, you have me see much about spirituality. I mean, you
see things like sports, drama. You see things like, you know, performing arts you, you see
things like, I don't know, different things - mindfulness, helping people and the meaning of it
and thinking, why is it that no one is looking into spirituality like? Is it that because we're in a
secular society, you know, people just assume it's not important or people don't have that
faith or it doesn't mean anything to people who are autistic or people who have intellectual
disabilities? So that's kind of why I started. So it's a bit of a personal journey, but I said
there's a long journey because I didn't really touch on all of the history, but just starting off
with where I came from in Nigeria, the stigma attached and the different views which people
have about people who are different in Nigeria and then come in here that view still there.
But then was kinda - had challenged. I guess you know, when I came here, it's something
that I've always known. Anyway, you know you know when you've always known that this is
not right, but it's just you're not in the system that you're able to better. And explore it
further right without what's the world without any barriers in your way?... OK. I'm not sure if
it makes sense, so I'm trying to say.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah, it does make sense. And it's to me it feels very and part of a long but logical journey.
And I think it's really interesting what you said about the Understanding Learning Disabilities
module because I didn't do - I've taught on it. It's not one that I did because I have a
background in languages.
Precious Sango
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Krysia Waldock
So I came from a slightly different background, but certainly my exposure to disability
studies and critical autism studies and thinking about what where we are, these gaps kind of
came from a place of realizing from my personal life, much like you with friends I had and
things I was doing going hang on, there's a gap here going and having them in the literature
and going why is no one talking about this.
Precious Sango
Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing. - Yeah, it's like. And also for me it was so real because I have this
friend of mine, and I mean it's normal to him to have faith. But you know it's normal to them
to debate and question and you know, like we had interesting debates. And I'm thinking I
mean all well and good. Sport is great. Don't get me wrong, you know, sports is fine. Theatre
is fine. Drama is fine. It contributes to people's quality of life, I'm sure, but also spirituality.
You know, faith and religion does also contribute to people's quality of life, even those who
do not have faith. It's also interesting to hear their own experiences as well, you know. So
yeah, that's kind of how I came into this research area. So I remember when I proposed the
idea, when I think I applied for funding, I didn't get it at first.
Precious Sango
Yeah.
Precious Sango
So the polling applied forwards to the Tizard Centre
Precious Sango
The thing you know, they do their PhD calls
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
And things like that, and so it was not so. I had to put this idea to look at this - I think it was
spirituality of people in general. So anyway, you know how the journey goes. It kind of gets
shaped into what it is today, but anyway, when I send through the idea I did get invited for
interview. Lovely, you know interviewees, I don't know their names because confidentiality, I
guess.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
I don't know, but anyways, that interview experience was great, but obviously I didn't get the
funding someone else got it. They were kind enough to say, actually, you know, your
research proposal is interesting. Do you wanna maybe speak with Rachel Forrester-Jones
because she's interested in that research area? And I think... That's how I reached out to
Rachel because she was also my supervisor for the Masters, so I reached out to her. This is
kind of what I wanna do and she was interested. Ohh yeah, why not? Um so, you know, work
together. She really supported me. She gave me guidance and you know, I made changes to
the proposal and then, Professor Chris Shilling, very amazing guy, well, first thing I would say
because and he was really supportive as well, you know cause reached reached out to say
they're funding because there was an SSPSSR school funding I think happening and within
within that the university. So yeah, so we applied for it and time for the interview and I got
here. Yeah.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
So that that that's my journey of getting funding. It's not always straightforward getting
funding, to be honest, but yeah, so that that was so, yeah, I was, yeah. I'm thankful for for
the SSPSSR team and Rachel and Chris were kind of supporting me through that process to
be honest. But yeah, so that's how I came to doing the topic and the doctorate. I think that
hopefully that answers the question.
Krysia Waldock
It does, and I wonder actually, if we could chat about your PhD. What did you find in your
PhD?
Precious Sango
Umm.
Krysia Waldock
Was there anything particularly interesting that you found?
Precious Sango
Yeah. So there were why a lot of findings. A huge, huge, huge document. But anyway, so I'll
just talk about the main ones really. These ones - you would be able to find them in, in the
articles that you know I've published as well. If you type my name in Google Scholar Precious
Sango, you should be able to see some of my journals. I'm so one of basically the main
finding is that there is a positive, you know, association between spirituality, social networks
and quality of life, of people with intellectual disability and autistic people, which I'm sure
you can add to with your own work as well. Umm and basically an aspect of it in relation to
social network is that spirituality and religious practices or religious activities helps people
with expanding their social network. And as we know, you know from many of Rachel's work
on social networks and you know, you may be able to comment on that is that people
intellectual disability, for example, have minimal social network. But for example I found in
one of the data we collected that people who are living in the faith based service had like
higher networks or an individual would have like 7-8 people in their network for example.
Again, mind you, this data was collected in 2014, 2015, right and then people in the nonfaith service had about 4. So you can see the difference, right? And the difference being that
people who are in the faith based service, they were being supported to take part in both
religious and non-religious activities and the others they were more focused on umm at hoc
basis of you know, religious spiritual support. For example, if they wanted to go to church for
example, but then there are other and barriers in terms of providing these kind of supports
that we found. So that's one of the findings in terms of expanding one’s social network. And
then the other one related to the fact that looking at the data because again I used mixed
methods, so it was both qualitative and quantitative. So I used some measures, so one of
the measures I use was the brief spiritual beliefs inventory, OK, which is the systems of belief
inventory. I think if you Google you'll find it, but basically you'll find that those who are
reporting higher scores where also the ones that had higher social network, OK. And again,
it's just seems to show that people who are engaging in spiritual, religious activities, where
having opportunities to expand their social networks, which I can actually relate to from my
own personal experience, I'm quite an introverted person. And if I think about the friends I
have apart from academia but outside of that, it's mainly from churches, right? It's learning
from the church that I've been to and, for example, but anyway we can talk about church
later.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
But anyway, mainly from church in a way. So I can understand that. And then the other
aspect of the finding related to spiritual support and spiritual care in this services. So it was
found that staff in faith based services were able to provide both religious and non-religious
spiritual support. Those in the non-faith based service mostly provided religious spiritual
support. So for example, like I said, if they found that the person was religious and they
wanted to go to church and they had time, for example, because time was again another
issue in providing these supports that were not like functional or you know as part of the job
because again because of money because of staffing and time, umm, so, so that was kinda
that aspect of the finding. But again, another interesting part was the fact that those in the
faith based services, so the staff had training related to providing spiritual support as well,
again because it's a faith based service. So they train staff on how to provide spiritual
support, what it looked like and explore that in different ways, which I think that was a really
good thing and very effective in supporting people who support individuals, for example.
And then another aspect of my finding really is to so those who are in a faith based service
recorded highly on the quality of life scores, because we use the quality of life measure and
they there's was higher. So their mean score was higher than those in the non-faith based
service and obviously this correlated again with the spiritual measures as well. OK, so
obviously this thing so suggest that spirituality does contribute to most aspects of the
quality of life measures and that participants completed. OK. So those are kind of the main
findings in a way. I think I'll stick to these and you can find out more if you read the article
anyway, so I don't bore you too much.
Krysia Waldock
I think what I've really enjoyed listening to particularly is actually how some of your findings
actually transferable to other kind of people's work. You worked with mainly with people
who live in services.
Precious Sango
Yeah.
Krysia Waldock
Obviously not all people with intellectual disabilities and autistic people are living services,
but as an autistic person who is highly introverted myself, I was thinking actually, you know,
when I think of the people who I interact with and the people who I kind of do stuff with,
then there are an awful lot of people who I know through churchy networks and that who
are who I would count as very supportive in that way.
Precious Sango
Hmm hmm.
Krysia Waldock
And so I think that's it's a really important finding actually I think that can be generalized
beyond what you have and actually it's really it's really important and I guess another thing
that would be really useful for us to draw out is actually how important spirituality can be
and existential well views that actually everybody has an existential worldview.
Precious Sango
Yeah.
Krysia Waldock
And that includes autistic people and into people with intellectual disabilities, even though
we often think that that's not the case. Actually absolutely is the case.
Precious Sango
Yeah, definitely. I mean in my and in my pieces, I was working with, umm well all I call it this.
Uh, so I came up with this multidimensional framework right? Because obviously I needed to
have, umm like an understanding of what spirituality meant and what I was measuring, right.
And because again, there are so many different definitions of spirituality, you know, if you
look at literature, you know, you have different people define what spirituality means. You
know, for example, faith in the secret personal relationship which to supreme power all of
that. So what I did in my in my thesis was I created like a diagram. I was playing around but I
think I think it does make sense. So if you read my paper, you would see the
multidimensional working definition of spirituality that I came up came up with. And
basically what that says is that again informed by relevant literature, because I read across
different literatures within religion, psychology like different fields, and to see how they
defined spirituality. So basically what this multidimensional approach was saying is that
there so there are three dimensions right to spirituality. So you have one which is
transcendent. So spirituality, let's start off is belief in the supernatural spiritual supernatural
could be different things, different meanings for different people, right? But within that
spirituality you have 3 dimensions, right? You have transcendence, OK, the supernatural
existence. And then you have the connection and relationship aspect with self with nature,
with nature they have the meaning and purpose, OK, making sense of life, striving for
answers. But then within these dimensions you could either be within the religious, religious
and spirituality angle, OK. Within these dimensions or you can go within the non-religious
spirituality. So if you're within the religious spirituality, it kind of includes both belief and the
practice, OK. And in the non-religious spirituality is both is mainly just the practice of it, not
necessarily the belief, OK. And you may not necessarily practice it within a traditional
religious set in, for example, so you may have people that say I'm not religious, but I'm
spiritual, and then you have people that say I'm religious and I'm spiritual. So that's kind of
what I was trying to break down, but anyway, it's all included in my paper.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
If you read, it would make a bit more sense, but basically like just going on what you were
saying earlier. Yeah, there are people who identify with different because it's like a spectrum,
isn't it?
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
You know, there are people who can identify with different levels, different dimensions of
spirituality. For me it might be different from yours for someone else, but it doesn't mean
that they don't have and it's spiritual beliefs or spiritual element to them if that makes
sense. So yeah, I felt like it was important to explore that and to understand how that was
significant or not. You know, for people with intellectual disabilities and autistic people, for
example.
Krysia Waldock
And what was there anything that you found that surprised you or was all of it as expected?
Precious Sango
So interestingly, because the way I collected data was I spent like six months in each
services, right? You know, I was kind of part of helping, for example, supporting just
observing, carrying out data, getting to know participants as well. Umm, I wouldn't really
surprised because I tried to go in. Not really knowing what to expect, right? Because you
know, especially when you've read a lot of literature that tells you that people don't have
belief, you know, even have ridiculous people saying, oh, they don't - people with intellectual
disabilities or autistic people don't have an understanding of spirituality like they don't have,
you know, some people talk about how it's too abstract for them and things like I'm like, OK,
that's a big condescending, isn't it?
Krysia Waldock
Just a bit.
Precious Sango
Yeah, but yeah, so yeah, you read all these things. So you don't really know what to expect
when you go in, but I wasn't really surprised. I think what's some of what baptisms were
telling me? I think I remember this participant from the Faith based service.
I would say the name of your city, but they they're autistic, right?
Precious Sango
And they were telling me things like the way they defined spirituality. And their belief was so
deep to me that it kinda I found it encouraging for my own faith. Right, because they're
understanding of like, no, the Trinity, they gave me this understanding about the Trinity. The
way they explained they and they understood that I'm like, OK, wow, this is definitely the
opposite of what I've been reading, you know, which I kinda knew because I had a friend
who, like I said, is in the spectrum. And, you know, we debated spirituality and everything.
But yeah, so going in the service and hearing how she, she explained spirituality the
meaning for her, the relationship between Jesus, the Spirit and God, OK, that's interesting.
So for me it was. It was encouraging for my own spiritual journey to be honest here. And so I
wouldn't say surprised. I think I was maybe encouraged with that.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah. That makes sense
Precious Sango
Yeah, which I still remember today. I mean, that was many years ago and I and it still stands
out to me so deeply even today, you know. But yeah, I think that's outside encouraged. Not
really surprised, but encouraged, yeah.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah, I think I've also been equally encouraged by what I'm doing in my PhD where I've
spoken to autistic people about identity, I spoke to Christians and Muslims about identity,
and also then spoken to autistic people who currently and have used to in the past, attend
churches and mosques.
Precious Sango
Mm-hmm.
Krysia Waldock
And I think the one thing I found really encouraging was actually, especially when I spoke to
the autistic people in churches and mosques, how much bits of their story overlapped with
mine, that wasn't something I was necessarily expecting.
Precious Sango
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Krysia Waldock
If I put all of eight of my participants, they all had fragments of my story in it and I think if I
either kept talking to more people, if I'd had unlimited time and unlimited funds that with
these so much overlap and I think that that's what I thought. I think although I did, I went in
lightly with an open mind. I was just really surprised about how much everyone overlapped
each other, even though everyone had such different journeys and even beliefs as well.
Precious Sango
Umm. Yes.
Krysia Waldock
I have people who are atheists, people who are humanists, people who are Pentecostal
Christians, all sorts of people, Sunni Muslims, all sorts of people were different, almost
different ways of expressing the spirituality in different religious beliefs or non-religious
beliefs.
Precious Sango
Umm yeah it is. It is. It is encouraging, but yeah. So that's what I would say to that question.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah. And I think this actually links really well to a paper we currently wrote together. So we
currently recently wrote a paper for theology about autistic people in churches. I wonder if
you could give us a quick overview of kind of what we kind of wrote about or there's
anything particularly important for you in that paper?
Precious Sango
Umm, yeah. OK. So yeah, the paper. Yeah, “autism, Faith and churches and the research
landscape and where we go next”, that's the title, if I got it right.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
But anyway, yeah. So we looked at the complex intersection between autism, faith and
church experiences, and I quite like that approach we took to this because and, you know,
obviously drawing from our own personal experiences, but also research experiences, we
cannot discuss how churches, despite being potential places of support and may have
unique barriers, you know, for autistic people and due to social influences, but also due to
some interpretations of theological perspectives, for example. And so we kind of talked
about the importance of, I guess, the importance of considering, yes, spiritual, intellectual,
cultural, but also a historical perspectives when approaching some of this theological
interpretations, if that makes sense. So we highlighted the challenges that autistic people
face in charges, OK, including social, cultural and biblical and negative narratives, for
example, and or would I say, negative interpretations?
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
I think I think that's what I would say. I wouldn't say yeah. Yeah, I would say it is negative
interpretation because again, the Bible can be interpreted in different ways, so again we
cannot talk about that and we recommended the need for deeper understanding and
training. So for example, the need for churches to better understand autism, but also for
churches to Co-produce some of their materials, either preaching materialize them or
materials and alongside autistic people. But also I think we also discussed like having people
visible in churches as well. You know, like in positions of leadership, I think we touched about
up on that, but also we talked about the importance of theology in variety of different
religions experience among autistic individuals, you know, including both positive and
negative aspects to just see how they can be reconciled and addressed because some of
these experiences can be traumatic for some people or have been traumatic for some
people. So it is quite important the way that they approached, but also the need for more
research focusing on religious and spiritual leader series of autistic individuals, but also
knowing why churches maybe this is kind of what I'm taking away. I'm not sure if we
included that in our research, but I think this is kind of where we're going to next crystal in
terms of, OK, so there are usually resources out there on, OK, how to be more inclusive in
charges, especially when it comes to autistic people, there are usually resources out there.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
We've seen some, I've seen some, but why is it that some judges I don't wanna say all? Why
is it that some or would I say most, that we brave to say most are not really taken on board
some of these resources? Is it that they don't know? Is it that they don't want to? They are
different factors, right?
Yeah.
Precious Sango
It's because you know we're doing all this research. Yeah, I've done my research, my thesis.
You're doing yours. Naomi is doing theirs, for example, and well, they've done theirs, I think.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah, they've done theirs.
Precious Sango
And you know, but yeah, so quite other people are doing this in terms of religion, spirituality,
autistic people, people with intellectual disabilities. And there's this theme of there, there
needs to be more inclusion, more needs to be done and there's these recommendations,
right. But what is it that is stopping religious organizations from being inclusive? Right? Are
we - are we making assumptions ourselves? This is my question to myself as well. I would
just blindly saying churches are not inclusive. They're not doing anything, but we don't know
why do we actually know? Why can we 100% say that we know? Why couldn't we 100% say
that the reason why churches are not doing that is because they don't want to? Do you see
what you mean? Like, has anyone actually gone out?
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
If if there's a research out there because this is what we're exploring now, Krysia, if there's
any researcher there who has looked into and said yes, I know why churches are not being
inclusive is because they don't want to.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
Why we don't really have an answer to why you know.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
So that's kind of where where I think that's what it was next from the paper that we wrote,
yeah.
Krysia Waldock
And I think the other main takeaway and this has come through in the master's research, I
didn't also have very heavily in the thesis I'm currently writing is how each church, each
mosque you have. They are also different to each other.
Precious Sango
Umm. Mm-hmm.
Krysia Waldock
They always have their own culture, and I also wonder if this is why, perhaps because of the
kind of lack of connection between different groups of how people practice or do things
actually that there is this lack of connection. So there are going to be some people who will
know some of the fantastic resources out there and they'll be some people who would have
never even if you Google some of this stuff, it will come up really quite quickly on Google.
They just would have never thought to have Googled or have these other barriers to why
they might have not found or access this stuff.
Precious Sango
Umm. Yeah. So it's yeah. So it's quite interesting, you know, the fact that there is it because
yeah, we don't we don't quite know right there are different reasons as to why but it would I
think it would be quite good to kind of pinpoint the main factors contributing to this. So that
again solutions can be, you know co-produced you know if for example we know for certain
is mainly due to culture the way people do things are different. OK, fine. Can we all work
together and see how things can be done differently, for example, but we don't know that
for sure. It might be the case for some charges, but not for the others. This what you mean?
So I think there is a - yeah, there's a gap there in, in terms of exploring what they mean,
barriers are for churches from their perspectives, I think because yeah, you know, it's good
to. Say yeah, we think it's because of this cause people have different experiences of, OK, I
went to this church and you know, it's too loud and all of that stuff. And so it's not
comfortable for me, OK, what is the what has happened before is it your first time there?
Have you spoken to them? Do you see what you mean?
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
So there are different experiences that people have that with these different experiences
that there is a narrative that is coming through as to why churches are not inclusive. But I
don't, I don't.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
I have a read of any paper that has a list on churches and say let's go and speak to these
church leaders and do you see what I mean?
Krysia Waldock
I do.
Precious Sango
Like I haven't read it or I haven't found that list. Umm.
Krysia Waldock
And there's a there's a lot of, there's a lot of people I know who do things on the ground and
do a lot of informal research, which I think is fantastic. And I think it's about time that people
who are in kind of in academia like us start to question why academia hasn't followed what
these people who have been doing in formal research have been doing consultancy for 10,
20, 30 years?
Precious Sango
Yeah.
Krysia Waldock
Why haven't we not so much pulled on their knowledge? Why haven't we been asking the
same questions?
Precious Sango
Yeah.
Krysia Waldock
Why haven't we followed that same path of curiosity? Why is it that this is such an
untouched area when we compare it to other both aspects of religious studies, sociology of
religion and also, disability and autism studies?
Precious Sango
Yeah, that is, that is very valid.
Krysia Waldock
Also, and I think also there's this disjoint between when we think of academia between
disability studies and religious studies to some degree anyway, where the two don't really
talk to each other.
Precious Sango
Mm-hmm.
Krysia Waldock
And I wonder how much of that might contribute to some of our lack of questioning to some
of the things which some people are doing fantastically. It's on the ground as consultants or
informal researchers or independent researchers, which hasn't quite made its way into the
Academy yet.
Precious Sango
Umm, I mean, why do you why do you think that is? I mean, I have different theories, but
why do you think that is?
Krysia Waldock
I think I almost see like you had your multidimensional definition of spirituality. I
seemultidimensional reasons, all kind of overlapping and intersecting together, almost to be
like a flower with lots of different bits, all overlapping in the middle with different parts all
overlapping to different degrees, with some of the bits we've already spoken about.
Precious Sango
Yeah.
Krysia Waldock
So I think where people - disciplines don't necessarily talk to each other, there's sometimes a
lack of funding or lack of deceived interest.
Precious Sango
Yeah.
Krysia Waldock
I think there's also the some of the priorities when we look at people's interests in disability
and autism studies research, that intersection with kind of spirituality may not necessarily be
there, or that may not necessarily be as well represented, especially where religious studies
really, really, really nebulous anyway.
Precious Sango
Yeah.
Krysia Waldock
And there's lots of people doing fantastic and theological work, and pastoral theology, which
we absolutely need, but there isn't as much social science investigation. I think it's because
it's not seen as a popular topic. I think because there's kind of the different countries will
have different approaches as well.
Precious Sango
Yeah.
Krysia Waldock
So as we know, there's a lot of literature within the US there's much less in the UK and in
other countries as well.
Precious Sango
Yeah.
Krysia Waldock
And obviously religion takes different importances in different countries. Obviously got
separation from religion in the state in some countries and somewhere it's much more
embedded as a way of life.
Precious Sango
Yeah.
Krysia Waldock
So I think it's really, really complex and to put it down to one thing on its own would be quite
hard, but I think there's lots of reasons why.
Precious Sango
Yeah, I definitely agree.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
I think kinda highlighted that as well in our paper and I think we mainly talked about funding
as well. But yeah, like you said, there are multidimensional factors as to why that is. But I
think just going back to what you were saying about, you know, in academia, especially
within social sciences, cannot going on and carrying on with what people are doing
informally already, because again it it's, it's getting it out there, isn't it in terms of the
knowledge, right and cannot sharing that knowledge with people and but also being able to
use that knowledge to do better, right. You know in in I don't know, 30 years time. We're not
still saying the same thing that we're not on this podcast talking about.
Krysia Waldock
Yes.
Precious Sango
But I don't know, but yeah.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
But hopefully 30 years time we would talk about how things have improved and more
inclusion, who knows?
Krysia Waldock
Yeah. And are there any practical takeaway points that care providers that kind of like
services you worked into part of your PhD and outside or churches could take away from
your research?
Precious Sango
I think it probably be, yeah. Again, just acknowledging the fact that people have different
religions experiences. Right? And which are meaningful to them, right? It might not
necessarily be the way you see spirituality yourself, but it's uh, it's meaningful to people for
those who have any beliefs, but also for those who do not have a belief. They also benefit
from, you know, for example, social events for example, or having friends for example. I
mean, there's no one who doesn't benefit from having friends or just practicing and activity.
When do they don't have any belief, so I just think it's us being aware and changes changing
this narrative that people with intellectual disability or autistic people don't have an
understanding of what's spirituality is right.
Precious Sango
I think that's one thing I would want to just generally take away just that narrative of ‘they
don’t understand’. And... ‘How can they understand spirituality?’
Krysia Waldock
Yeah.
Precious Sango
Especially when you read all this literature, you know. So I think that's one thing. It's just
changing that narrative, right? And then again, it's just looking, I think for churches is
inclusion like again being inclusive in their practices, but also in their like sermons right in
the way they deliver their sermons. OK. Could you know - Cause you have traditional ways.
OK, this is how the sermon is done. But it has to be done this way in some churches. OK. But
I think there needs to be a bit more... I've seen some good examples to be honest, but just
being inclusive in sermons, right? Inclusive, innovative, creative so that you're able to not
just take our one type of person who has that type of way of gaining information. So I think
that is one thing I would say in terms of churches, not just not just inclusive in the
environment or the attitudes and the cultures, but also inclusive in the delivery of the
messages for example. And in terms of services, I think I would say there needs to be more
training in you know on providing spiritual care, right, you know, I mean there are some, you
know maybe on modules you see some topics or talks on mindfulness. You see talks on -
yeah, people have different beliefs. You know when you talk about diversity, I mean apps in
in my teaching, because I teach in health and social care. And I mean, I remember I'm the
one having to bring in sometimes when I teach spirituality because that's my area, but it's
not really, it's not mainstream, dear. I don't think is mainstreamed enough because you have
people who are gonna be going into services who are going to be dealing with vulnerable
people in hospitals, in countering people, intellectual disabilities and autistic people. They
need to be able to know how to provide spiritual care. You know, it's not just something you.
It's not just something you know, because you have a belief, even if you are a Christian, you
may not have a clue on how to provide spiritual care, you know? So I feel like there needs to
be more training on education of professionals.
Krysia Waldock
Yeah, because it's very different having a conversation about your faith and trying to
convince someone to think the same as you are, to actually providing care.
Precious Sango
Yeah.
Krysia Waldock
That's empathetic to someone else's beliefs standpoint and lived experience. It's two
completely different things.
Precious Sango
Very different. Yeah, very different. So I think there needs to be a bit more in light of that.
You know. Yeah. Those are the three things I would say in terms of thing takeaways.
Krysia Waldock
Fantastic. So if you want to read the paper that precious and I precious and I wrote, you can
read it at bit.ly/Aut-church-where-next Slash. And how is best for anybody who's interested
in getting in contact with you Precious, how would be best to get in contact with you?
Precious Sango
Uh, email. Yeah, email is fine. P.sango@londonmet.ac.uk and umm yeah. If you want to read
any of my papers, just go to a Google Scholar, type in Precious Sango. You will see some of
my papers there.
Krysia Waldock
And that wraps up this episode of the Autism and Theology podcast. It's been fantastic to
have a discussion with your precious and thank you so much to our listeners. If you have any
questions including about some of the topics we've discussed, you can message us at at
@autism theology on X or Instagram, or you can send us an email at CAT at abdn.ac.uk. We
would love to hear from you, even if it's just to say hi or send a picture of your cat with
absolutely loved receiving pictures of your cats and your pets. Since we've shared ours and
on CATchat will be out on the third Wednesday of this month and we'll see you soon.