I Used To Be Crap At Sales

Stepping into your first sales leadership role, or aspiring to walk the beaten path from successful sales rep to leader? It’s a whole new ballgame, and not all top-performing sales reps are cut out for the challenge. In this episode of I Used to Be Crap at Sales, Mark Ackers sits down with seasoned sales veteran Alan Clark to unpack the truths every first-time sales leader needs to hear.

Drawing on 20+ years of experience managing diverse teams at global tech giants like SAP and Sage, Alan shares candid lessons learned from his early mistakes—like why building a team of “mini-me’s” is a recipe for disaster.

Learn from Alan’s wins, like leading a SaaS company to a 10x ARR exit, and his missteps along the way, such as assuming success without consistent alignment with leadership. His personal anecdotes and practical advice provide a roadmap to navigate the often rocky path to becoming an effective sales manager.

You’ll discover why empathy in leadership is essential (but doesn’t mean being soft), how to avoid hiring biases, and the importance of digging deeper in one-on-one conversations. Alan also reveals the traits that separate top individual contributors from successful sales managers, and why failing to build trust and credibility with your team can derail your career.

If you’re an aspiring sales manager, new to leadership, or looking to develop your sales coaching skills, this episode offers actionable advice to set you up for success. Learn how to navigate the pitfalls, lead with confidence, and turn failures into opportunities for growth. Don’t miss out—your leadership journey starts here!

What is I Used To Be Crap At Sales?

Even the most prominent voices in Sales were crap at Sales once.

Join bestselling Author, Founder and Sales Coach Mark Ackers as he speaks with successful Sales professionals about their early Sales struggles, and how they overcame these challenges to become the people they are today.

Mark Ackers: Welcome

to the

podcast.

Here's a

sneak peek

of what's

coming up

in today's

episode.

Did you

used to be

crap at

sales? Oh,

yes, how

crap were

you

talking I

think

Unknown: I

didn't

realize

it. Back

then, I

was in the

sort of

twos and

threes. I

went from

this whole

sort of,

you know,

was on a

sort of

PIP to be

marched

out the

door to

then, oh,

wow, you

did

everything

right? How

clever of

you funny,

because it

was a

nearly

complete

disaster,

and then

it was one

of the

biggest

deals that

actually,

actually

landed.

What was

Mark Ackers: the

deal

worth?

845,000

Nice. What

percent

commission

were you

on? Did I

write out

that one?

I think

people

that are

thinking

about

making the

move into

management

or as

their

first gig,

they might

struggle,

not

thrive.

You've got

interesting

experience

in areas.

Unknown: Yeah,

I used

another

example of

Alex

Ferguson.

Ferguson

was famous

for making

sure that

he was

taking the

heat out

of the

situation.

So if a

game went

badly and

he was

being

interviewed,

it's

because he

put people

in the

wrong

places. He

had the

wrong

strategy,

and it's

down to

him. If I

said to

you, list

a few of

the traits

of a top

performing

IC mindset

wise, what

would you

say

individual

contributors

should be

very, very

focused.

Got to be

diligent

and

methodical

about what

they what

they're

actually

doing,

keep sort

of zooming

out of the

weeds they

might be

in in a

particular

deal or

account or

something

going on,

and keep

taking a

check of

the bigger

picture of

what's

going on.

One of my

disasters

early on

was

creating a

team of

mini me's.

We hire

great

people,

and then

we tell

them what

to do. And

that's

what I was

doing.

That's

completely

wrong,

because

there's

many

different

ways of

completing

what

you're

trying to

achieve,

and people

would do

it in

different

ways. So

your job,

from the

manager

point of

view, is

trying to

understand.

Mark Ackers: Hello

and

welcome to

another

episode of

The I used

to be crap

at sales

podcast.

I'm your

host, Mark

Akers, the

co founder

and Head

of Sales

here at my

sales

coach, we

called the

podcast

that

because

it's true

and all of

our guests

say the

same.

Today's

episode,

we're

going to

focus on

what it's

like being

a first

time sales

leader. So

if you're

thinking

of making

the move,

or you are

in a first

time sales

leadership

role, this

episode is

for you,

and here's

who I'm

joined by

in the

orange

chair.

Today, we

have a man

with a

rich

background,

20 plus

years

experience

working

with

global

tech

businesses,

primarily

cloud

software,

SaaS,

Microsoft

for four

years, VP

of Sales

for SAP,

the global

VP of

Sales for

sage,

which had

a trade

sale exit

at over 10

times ARR

and during

his time,

he's built

teams of

account

managers,

new

business

sales, pre

sales

consultants

and lead

generation.

And on top

of all of

that, he's

a my sales

coach,

coach, and

this

episode is

gonna be

full of

wisdom. I

can tell

my guest

today is

Alan

Clark.

Alan,

welcome to

orange

chairs and

Newcastle.

How are

you?

Unknown: I'm

really

good.

Thank you.

And these

are, these

are

fantastically

comfortable,

if not a

Mark Ackers: little

warm, is a

bit

warmer,

but you'd

have to

wear a

jumper, so

you're

okay. In

terms of

this

episode,

we always

start with

a yes, no

question,

sure, did

you, or

did you

not used

to be crap

at sales?

Oh, yes.

Unknown: Oh.

I mean,

that could

be borne

out by a

couple of

pips.

Those that

don't know

what a pip

is, is a

hopefully

you won't

ever

experience

one. So

yeah, I've

been in

crap at

sales. And

Mark Ackers: how

crap were

we talking

on a scale

of one to

1010,

being

elite, one

being

crap. How

crap were

talking?

Pretty

crap. I

was in the

sort of

twos and

threes?

Yeah, it

was pretty

low to

start

with.

Often

guests

have just

a funny

story how,

like, a

big

mistake

they've

made in

their

career.

Yeah,

share one

with us. I

Unknown: was

alluding

to the

fact that

I've seen

a lot of

people

fail in

that

because

they've

gone about

it without

realizing

why they

really

want it,

and they

feel like

it's just

a natural

progression

step, it's

kind of a

promotion.

And I

think too

many

people

really go

into it

without

understanding

what's

involved,

and that

it's that

it's a

completely

different

job. I

really

enjoy

talking to

aspiring

managers,

getting

under the

skin of

why they

really

want to

actually

do it

right? If

you're

going to

do it for

the money,

or you're

going to

do it for

the ego,

you're

doing it

for the

title,

you're in

all sorts

trouble.

And so

there's

some

interesting

questions

you need

to ask

yourself

quietly,

why you

actually

want to go

and do

that?

Well, that

was my

Mark Ackers: first

question

for you,

actually,

when we

think of

aspiring

sounds

leaders,

I've, you

know, over

the last

15 years,

spoke to

many

individual

contributors,

and they

all talked

about

getting

out of

what they

call,

like, you

know, the

rat race,

having a

quota.

They want

to take

that

leadership

step. And

most

people, I

feel, want

to be a

sales

leader.

They say

they do,

right?

They're

individual

companies

right now.

They want

to be a

sales

leader.

But should

they be

what

questions

should

they ask

themselves

to help

identify

they

should

take that

step.

Unknown: It's

the,

probably

the most

important

thing

you'll

you'll do.

I'd

suggest

you

surround

yourself

with a

couple of

people

that can

help you.

Also be

honest

with

yourself

as well

and ask,

what is

your true

motivation

behind it?

I don't

think

there's

anything

wrong with

wanting to

do a sales

job

because of

the money.

People

kind of

think, you

know, am I

being

Yeah, am

I? Am I

looking at

in the

wrong way?

I don't

think

there's

anything

wrong with

that at

all, to be

honest.

But I

think if

you're

going into

sales

leadership,

you need

to really

have the

right

motivations

behind it.

So why?

Why do you

actually

want to do

it? And

the big

avoidance

that I see

time and

time again

is because

you're

really

good at

sales.

Somebody

spotted

that and

say, Hey,

you're

really

good at

sales. Can

you lead

the team?

And that

ends up as

disaster.

A lot of a

lot of the

time

watching

that is,

it's

completely

different

job. It's

totally

different.

I mean

sales,

sales

leader

that I

don't, I

don't even

know why

actually

make that

an easy

progression

without it

actually

being

looked at

in a lot

detail.

It's a

different

job. I

think

Mark Ackers: largely

it comes

down to

wanting to

retain

talent.

People

want to

take that

step. If

they're

not going

to get it

here,

they'll

get it

somewhere

else. You

lose that

knowledge,

that

experience.

I think

that's

largely

what

happens. I

agree with

you. It's

totally

different

job. It's

a totally

different

motion,

mindset,

etc. Can

someone

who's crap

at sales

be a good

sales

leader,

though?

Unknown: Well,

controversially,

I think

they

probably

can. I

think the

problem

there will

be how

they earn

their

respect

and how

they gain

sort of

trust with

that, with

their

team,

largely,

people

turn to

people

that they

can see,

that have

gotten

experience

something

about

them,

that's,

that's

done what

they're

doing, and

they rely

on that.

But when

you

actually

compare

that to a

lot of

time. You

know,

sales guys

always do

this. We

compare

ourselves

to sports

coaches.

Yeah, some

of the

best

sports

coaches

weren't

the best

footballers

or rugby

players or

tennis

people

themselves,

but

they've

learned

something

else. So I

think to

answer

your

question,

can you,

can you be

crap and

be a good

manager?

Probably

not, but

you could

get there.

But you

don't have

to be

amazing or

an elite

person to

be able to

do it. It

feels like

you need

to usually

play the

sport,

yeah, oh

gosh,

yeah,

yeah. You

need to

have, you

need to

have done

something

in it, and

you need

to be able

to carry

some kind

Mark Ackers: experience

and value

and and,

yeah, the

big thing

is about

experience.

People

latch onto

that

because of

the trust

behind it.

So here's

something

that's not

It's not

common,

but it's

not

uncommon,

and when I

hear it on

discovery

calls, I

try to

just hide

my shock

marketing

managers

being

responsible

for sales

teams.

What do

you think

are we

still live

set as it

is?

There's no

nice, no,

I agree.

It's

typically

SDRs. SDRs

feed into

marketing

because

they're

working on

the leads,

etc. But

I've never

understood

that

motion at

all when I

think it's

crazy. And

Unknown: no

disrespect

marketeers,

but again,

it's a

diff. It's

different

kind of

job.

These,

these jobs

have got

to gel

together,

Jigsaw

into each

other, if

you like.

But I

think,

yeah,

sales is

such a

skill set.

And

there's

probably

some

people

that will

watch this

that will

love what

I'm going

to say

now, which

it and it

is a

complex

profession.

And

there's,

there's a

lot of

people

say, Oh,

it's not a

profession.

And, yeah,

it is. You

can

professionalize

it. And I

think,

yeah,

marketing

professional.

Sales is

professional,

customer

success,

support,

all these

things

work, but

you I

think it's

different

discipline,

marketing

to sales

definitely,

Mark Ackers: totally

agree.

What are

some of

the

misconceptions

aspiring

sales

leaders

have about

the role

of a sales

leader. I

Unknown: think

the first

one that

springs

straight

to mind is

that

you're

going to

be the

boss.

You're now

running

things.

You're

you're

now,

you're now

the

leader,

the boss.

You know

you're

going to

control

stuff. And

it's

actually

the flip

of that. I

I even

talk to

people

and. About

this

where, if

that's one

of the

things you

think is

going to

be you've

got 180

degrees

wrong, and

actually

you need

to to turn

that on

his head.

You're

suddenly

the the

support

person for

the team.

You're the

you're the

individual

that's

going to

help them

to be

successful.

You're

also the

person

that's

going to

protect

them from

what comes

down the

hill from

the C

suite and

the execs

in the

business

Mark Ackers: well.

So you've,

you know,

if you

think

you're

suddenly

the boss,

you're

not, in

fact,

you've

just

completely

twisted

that

around.

And you

said to me

that when

people do

make the

move to

sales

leader,

they don't

always

have all

the

details

before

signing

up. Is

that what

you're

referring

to there,

or is

there more

details

that

you're

referring

to? I

Unknown: think

that's

that's the

main

that's the

main

details

behind it,

but it's

also how

to how to

act in

that in

that role

as well, I

use

another

example of

Alex

Ferguson,

who I know

I'm in

Newcastle,

but yeah,

you're

Mark Ackers: in

good

company

here, the

greatest

football

manager in

the world,

Unknown: so

but

Ferguson

was famous

for making

sure that

he was

taking the

heat out

of the

situation.

So if, if

a game

went badly

and he was

being

interviewed,

it's

because he

put people

in the

wrong

places, he

had the

wrong

strategy.

shouldn't

have put

so and so

in a

certain

position,

and it's

down to

him, all

the refs,

all the

riffs,

yeah,

that's

another

option.

But the

the flip

is also

true. So

if they

walk away

from a

game, I

don't two,

three nil

up or

whatever,

he would

never take

that glory

whoever

scored or

whatever

it was, it

was, it

was the

setup and

how they

played

together,

how they

made space

for each

other, so

it was put

back on

them. And

I think

that's a

really

great way

of of

explaining

how the

sales

management

works.

Mark Ackers: I'm

guessing

you may

have read

it,

because

obviously

you've

referenced

Alex

Ferguson.

But I

think one

of the

best

leadership

books I've

read is

Alex

Ferguson's

book

called

leading.

Yeah. It

was co

written

with a

chat

called

Michael.

He's last

time the

number k,

but I read

that book

a long

time ago,

and it

made me

realize

he's not

just the

greatest

football

manager

that ever

lived.

He's one

of the

greatest

managers

of people

that

lived.

Yeah. Have

you read

the

Unknown: book?

Yeah,

again,

also a

long time

and a long

time ago,

but

there's

some,

there's

some

learnings

from that

as well.

For me

was, and

this is

one of the

other

things

that I'd

say about

the

leadership

side, is

that it's

understanding

your own

team's

motivations

and what's

going on

with with

them. And

I think

Fergus

talked

about

skulls and

BEC and

back at

the back

of the

time. And

what was,

what was

motivating

the

individuals,

so that he

could get

the best

out of out

of people.

And, yeah,

it could

be, you

know,

people are

going to

default in

a sales

role is

going to

be money.

But is it?

You know,

what does

the money

do? What

does the

money

bring I

was, I was

recently

on, on a

call with

somebody

who was

talking

about his

own team,

and one of

the things

I asked

was, how

much does

he know

about the

team?

He's,

he's, he's

leading.

And we

actually

got that

got to a

point, and

he was a

little bit

embarrassed

by it, but

I said,

Well,

look,

don't be

because

I've seen

this many

times, but

you've now

got

something

to work

on, where

he didn't

know he

wasn't

quite sure

people's

ages, he

wasn't

quite sure

exactly

where they

lived, he

wasn't

sure who

was

married

and who

not, who

had kids

who

didn't.

And I

think that

you don't

want to be

intrusive

into

people's

lives, but

getting to

know

people,

getting to

know their

motivations,

understanding

them as

Alex

Fergus,

enables

you to

support

people in

the best

possible

way,

through

motivation.

Yeah,

absolutely.

Mark Ackers: I

always

remember,

actually,

one of the

things he

would do

is you'd

understand

not just

who their

parents

were and

where they

lived, but

who their

grandparents

were where

they

worked.

And you

talk a lot

about

that, but,

you know,

it's a

fantastic

book. I

actually

wrote a

article

many moons

ago about

like, five

or six

things I

learned

from their

book.

Okay, on

leadership.

I'll show

you after

this. But

it was

pipeline

generation.

You always

worked in

four year

cycles.

Yeah. It

was about

motivation

like that.

Yeah,

understanding

is the the

team, the

family,

motivates

them. It

was about

recruitment.

It was

about the

training.

And I

remember

he had

like, you

know,

someone

dedicated

just

watching

videos and

just

creating

video

clips. It

was some

really

good book.

Hello. I'm

Mark the

host of

the I used

to be crap

at sales

podcast.

Thank you

for

listening.

As a sales

leader,

you're

responsible

for the

success of

your sales

team. That

means you

need to

spend time

coaching.

And

developing

them,

helping

them fine

tune the

skill that

is sales.

Of course,

the

challenge

is that

can always

wait till

tomorrow.

There's

competing

priorities,

always

taking you

away from

developing

and

coaching

your sales

team.

That's

where we

come in.

We can

accelerate

your

team's

development

and

performance

by giving

them

access to

one of our

expert

coaches.

So what

are some

of the

skills or

knowledge

areas that

most first

time

sounds

leaders

lack, but

are

crucial

for

success in

the role.

Unknown: I

think the

the key

thing I've

proven to

myself

that makes

a big

impact is

being able

to really

dig into

details

through

listening

understanding

situations.

Yeah,

well, that

our whole

sort of

really

being a

good

listener.

You know,

we talk

about

active

listening

now and

paying

attention

to the to

the

detail.

And

everybody

in the

team will

be very

different.

And so you

need to

peel back

the layers

of the

onion, if

you like,

and get

into the

details

things,

but

constantly

listen.

And, you

know, be

aware of

what's

going on.

So I when

I when I'm

hearing

other

people,

I'm

reviewing

those kind

of one to

one calls.

Sometimes

I feel

people are

just going

through

the

motions of

a one to

one, or

they're

just doing

a check

and

balance of

a deal

with you

whatever,

without

really

trying to

get under

the

details of

it, people

skills.

Then it's,

only feels

nice, it's

people

skills,

but it's

kind of,

it's being

prepared

to go to

the extra

levels of

detail on

your

questioning

that

really

unpack

what's

going on,

and

therefore,

then how

you can

help, how

you can

coach, how

you can

work with

them on

that

basis.

Because if

it's too

superficial,

then

you're

really

going to

struggle.

You won't

really get

Sure. Can

you give

Mark Ackers: me

an example

of where

perhaps a

conversation

might take

place,

where it's

superficial,

an example

of where a

sales

leader can

dig deeper

and get to

the truth,

and we can

role play

if you

want.

Well,

Unknown: I

think it's

something.

The other

day,

actually,

I had a

conversation

with

somebody

where they

were

talking

about a

particular

deal that

was going

going

well, I

and they

were using

language,

and I

reviewed

the call

with them,

and it's

like,

yeah, they

they said,

everything's

great,

yeah, it's

really,

really

good. And

I said,

Okay, and

that's

what

you're

saying,

yeah,

yeah. It's

really,

yeah. This

deals

brilliant.

It's Yes,

really,

really

good. And

the guy

was

saying,

okay, so

it's on

track and

everything.

Yep, it's

on track,

whatever.

And then

when, when

reviewed

afterwards,

I was

saying,

Well,

what? What

does great

mean? What

does on

track

mean? And

he said,

well, that

that means

that,

yeah, the

pricing is

good, the

dates we

put

together

is great.

Everything's

gonna work

out. I

said, does

it? Yeah?

Because

you

didn't,

none of

that was

said. You

assumed

that,

because

they said

to you,

it's going

great, but

you didn't

go any

further

with that.

So and he

said,

Well, they

said it

was going

great. I

said,

Yeah, but

that's

your DEF,

his

definition,

and you've

made an

assumption.

And I bet

between

you, him

and the

prospect,

if I ask

all three

of you

separately,

you know,

have

different

opinions.

So that's

kind of

what I

mean. I

think you

you'd need

to dig

deeper to

make sure

you can

help

support

coach

better.

How

Mark Ackers: can

someone

that right

now isn't

the first

time

leader, or

someone

that's

just got

in the

rock how

can they

get that

skill and

experience?

What are

some of

the things

they can

do to work

on that?

Unknown: That's

a really

good

question,

because I

think the

the

opportunities

are

limited,

but they

are there.

I think

you need

to make it

happen

yourself

is one of

the first

things put

yourself

forward

Mark Ackers: to

your own

manager.

Maybe

there's

the maybe

they're

aware on a

holiday or

something,

or they've

got

something

else on

and you

could run

a you

could run

a meeting

yourself.

Maybe

there's

opportunities

for you to

support

your peers

somebody

that's new

into the

group, but

yeah, I

would try

to take

opportunities

to to sort

practice

ahead of

actually

doing it

for real,

for sure.

I think

that's

important.

I've

before had

people

that are

SDRs want

to be SDR

managers,

and we

said,

like, this

is going

to a long

time, but

like, a

year long

audition,

yeah, and

every

quarter,

they sort

of almost

unlock new

responsibilities

from me.

Yeah. And

I found

that it

starts off

with, why

did you

lead some

cool

coaching?

Um, got

someone

new

joining.

Can you

shadow and

help them

and be

their sort

of buddy?

And then

it's, can

you run a

couple of

one to

ones for

me? And

then it's,

could you

get these

reports

for me?

And then

say you

slowly get

to the

point

where

three

months

before the

end of the

year, it's

they're

yours now,

yeah, and

so you get

on, I

think it

has to be

that soft

launch,

yeah,

definitely

don't do

that. Do

they

normally

just

Unknown: promote

it's

incumbent

on the

individual

themselves

to to put

themselves

in that

position

in the

first

place. Um.

Uh,

personally,

I've liked

it when

you know

reports of

mine have

come

forward

and said

they

actually

want that

responsibility

as well.

So what I

would say

to people

is, if you

if you are

considering

that path,

and again,

check your

reasons

first of

all. But

if you are

considering

that path,

then you

know, put

yourself

forward

for those

sort of

opportunities.

Make sure

that your

own

manager is

is aware

of that,

and I

think that

they would

appreciate

that as

well, and

it makes

their life

a little

bit more

interesting

and maybe

even

easier.

You've

just taken

a burden

off

somebody.

Mark Ackers: That's

always a

great

question

that I've

coached

people

myself to

ask their

manager,

is there

anything I

can do to

help you?

Yeah, what

can I take

off your

plate? And

you start

off with,

I know

when

people

have asked

me this

question,

you start

off by

giving

them the

shit

stuff,

right? But

when they

start

doing the

job, you

start

giving

them more

and more

and before

they

realize it

that go to

person.

And I

think

that's a

great

question

for

anybody

who asked

their

manager in

a one to

one, how's

your day

going?

How's your

week

going?

What's

keeping

you busy?

Is there

anything I

can take

off your

plate,

even if

you're

terrified

there, say

yes,

because

you won't

know how

to do it.

I haven't

asked you

to do it.

You need

some help,

and that's

a great

way to

learn. I

Unknown: think

you could

also not

just ask

them what.

I think

you could

also offer

up your

opinion

and a

specific a

specific

offer. So

rather

than

saying, Is

there

anything I

can help

with? Say,

look, I

know

you've got

a lot on

your plate

at the

moment.

You've got

those

reports

you're

trying to

do for the

for the

exec,

we've got

a pipeline

review

meeting. I

could run

that for

you if you

want. I

could try

and help

with that.

Would that

be useful?

Yeah, be

specific.

Be be

pushy. And

that same

tactic

works at

any level,

you know,

if you're

even a

first time

manager.

Now, that

works if

you want

to go to

the next

show,

absolutely.

Um, talk

about

mindsets.

If I said

to you

list a few

of the

traits of

a top

performing

IC mindset

wise, what

would you

say

individual

contributors

should be

very, very

focused.

Okay, so

very

focused.

It's got

to be

diligent

and

methodical

about what

they what

they're

actually

doing,

okay? And

I think

also keep

keep sort

of zooming

out of the

the sort

of the

weeds they

might be

in in a

particular

deal or

account or

something

going on,

and keep

taking a

check of

the bigger

picture of

what's

going on.

And that

one, the

last one

of the

last

things I'd

say as

well, is

just keep

qualifying.

That's one

of my

little

mantras to

people

I've

worked

with is,

you know,

right?

I've moved

from the

ABC of

always be

closing to

always be

qualifying.

I think

it's

important

to just

check

yourself

all the

way

through.

And that's

what I've

seen, that

the top

guys do, I

don't know

the

Mark Ackers: word

selfish.

No,

they've

got to be

sort of

focused on

themselves

and their

opportunities,

etc, to

close on

BEC,

that's

what you

typically

see top

people do,

like they

don't mess

around

with other

things.

They're

focused on

themselves.

Yeah,

Unknown: I

think I

would not

necessarily

focus on

themselves,

but

they're,

they're

myopic in

the sense

of needing

to get

something

to a

conclusion,

yeah, and

I think

that it's

also how

you define

that as

well. So

one of the

other

pieces of

advice, or

something

sometimes

work with

people on,

is is make

sure you

get to an

absolute

something

so in a

deal is

either

going to

close or

not, or

the next

meeting is

either

going to

happen or

not, or

the

proposal

was either

accepted

or it

wasn't, I

think

really

good. Top

sales

people

make sure

they got

to an

absolute

rather

than Yeah,

they

thought it

was okay,

and we're

going to

review it

next week,

and it

just you

had that

continuousness

going on.

Mark Ackers: we've

got the

traits of

an IC now,

yeah, what

are the

traits of

successful

manager?

Yeah, I

want to

see how

many

overlap

you see,

Unknown: yeah,

so, so a

few of

those

overlap,

but it's

more, for

me, I

think it's

more the

understanding

of those.

So you've

got a team

different

individuals,

and again,

a quick a

side

story. I

one of my

disasters

early on

was

creating a

team of

mini me's.

It was an

absolute

nightmare.

I thought,

I do I do

it. Okay?

I do it

well, so I

just get

everybody

to do it

my way.

And I said

to you off

camera,

one of my

favorite

quotes is,

you know,

one of

Branson's,

which is,

you know,

we hire

great

people,

and then

we tell

them what

to do, and

that's

what I was

doing, and

that's

completely

wrong,

because

there's

many

different

ways of of

completing

what

you're

trying to

achieve,

and people

would do

it in

different

ways. So

your job,

from the

manager

point of

view, is,

is trying

understand

specifically.

Where

people's

strengths

and

weaknesses

opportunities

are, and

supporting

those

specifically

in those

opportunities

with those

individuals,

rather

than just

being

Mark Ackers: focused

on it,

doing it

one

particular

way. So

you

mentioned

a lot of

interesting

things

there. I

definitely

want to

get on to

the

mistake of

hiring

your words

many use,

yeah,

don't do

that,

because I

want to

talk

about,

like,

leading

diverse

teams. But

before we

get to

that, I

feel like

I've still

not got

the answer

that I'm

looking

for in the

sense of

the

different

personality

traits of

successful

IC, okay,

and a

sales

manager,

because

that is

often who

becomes a

sales

manager, a

successful

IC. And I

know that

it's

totally

new

personality

traits

that are

needed,

and that's

where it

sort of

falls

down.

What? So

we've

covered

the traits

to an

individual

I see that

successful,

yeah, what

are the

traits

needed to

be a

successful

sales

leader? To

build

Unknown: on

your one

you didn't

want to

use the

selfishness.

It's not a

complete

opposite

to it, but

empathy

and

understanding

and

support is

kind of,

you know,

strong

values

that and

traits, if

you like,

that

somebody

in the

management

position

needs to

have. I

feel, and

and I

don't mean

that in a

sort of

soft way,

as though

you got

to, you

know that

can be

tough love

as well,

but you've

got to be

the person

that is,

supportive

and

empathizes

with

positions,

digs in to

understand

things,

can see

the bigger

picture,

and Can

and work

in a way,

to coach

the people

that

you're

working

with that

are in

there, in

your team.

And so I

think

you've

got,

rather the

ICs are

completely

myopically

focused,

and let's

use it

selfish on

what

they're

doing. But

as a as a

leader.

You can't,

you can't

be you've

you've got

a you're

looking at

them, not

the deal.

You're

looking at

the team.

You're

looking at

what the

company is

doing.

You've got

a wider

set of

responsibilities.

Mark Ackers: Here's

here's the

difficulty

that I'm

seeing,

and it's

just a

good

conversation.

Is empathy

something

that you

either

have or

don't

have, or

is it

something

you can

learn? Can

Unknown: you

learn

empathy?

That's a

that's a

great one.

I'm not

sure. I'm

not sure.

I think, I

think you

can become

empathetic

over time,

and I

think you

realize

and

understand

the the

importance

of that.

But I

would also

say,

actually,

you know,

you

probably

need to be

a little

bit hard

and nose

when

you're

when

you're an

yourself.

And maybe

there

isn't as

much

empathy in

in that,

in that as

a trait of

individual.

But

definitely

you need

to have

that. And

can you

learn it?

I think, I

think

you'll

get,

you'll

become

empathetic

as you get

experienced

or older,

if I'm

allowed to

say older,

because

that

that's

how,

that's how

I think

people

naturally

develop.

They're

understanding

of their

environments,

that

they're

empathetic

about

what's

going on.

Mark Ackers: It's

just in

sales

every

month,

every

quarter,

there's

targets to

be here.

Yeah,

there's

pressure

from every

direction.

Sure, not

only you

trying to

bring in

new logos.

You're

sometimes

having to

pick up

the slack

from

churn,

right? And

that gets

added to

your

target. It

can be a

hard time

to have

empathy

when you

feel like

everything's

against

you and

you're

just

living on

their

hamster

every

month,

every

quarter.

And

empathy

doesn't

help you

when

you're

forecasting

deals and

putting

numbers

across to

the people

above you,

I can see

why sales

do the

struggle

with

Unknown: that.

Yeah, no,

I do too,

but so

don't,

don't

make,

don't make

this sort

of leap

between

empathy

and being

soft on

this or,

or just

saying,

Oh, well,

that, you

know,

never

mind. Is

really,

really

tough. I'm

not saying

that kind

empathy,

being

empathetic

in that

is, is

understanding

somebody's

situation,

understanding

how

they're

doing it,

understanding

the

pressures

and maybe

the the

the

different

ways they

need to

work in a

certain

situation,

so by

being more

empathetic

your

understanding

of the

situation,

and

therefore

you're

then

better

positioned

to help,

support,

coach,

advise,

whatever

you need

to do. But

you can't

do that

unless

you've

really

understood

them at a

at a

pretty

decent,

detailed

level,

Mark Ackers: and

that's

only

harder

when you

imagine

remote

teams.

What do

you think

would

happen if

your sales

team had

on demand

access to

a sales

expert,

someone

that

wasn't

their

boss,

someone

that

wasn't

connected

to the

company

goal,

someone

that was

simply

there to

help them

grow and

develop

their

skill set.

What do

you think

would

happen to

your sales

team?

Team, if

they could

have that

time with

a sales

expert

whenever

they

needed it.

What

results do

you think

you would

see? Why

not find

out? Speak

to my

sales

coach, and

we'll

share how

we can

help.

Unknown: Yeah,

I struggle

with the

whole

thing

about

remote

teams,

maybe

because I

don't

know. I'm

a Gen Xer

and I like

being out

in front

of people

more, and

everything's

moving to

zoom. I've

managed to

adjust my

own kind

of work,

but I do

find that

being in

front of

people,

trying to

make those

trying to

have that

opportunity,

is really,

really

important.

actually,

it's good

that you

mentioned

that. I

think that

you know

where you

can just

get out in

front of

people and

talk to

people I

was, I was

actually

talking to

my son

yesterday

about

this. He's

He's 25

he's in a

sales role

himself

now. And

one of the

things he

one of the

things he

said to me

was about

different

communication

channels,

and there

was a

situation

which is

going back

and forth

over email

three or

four

times,

just pick

up the

phone. And

he picked

up the

phone. And

I was

thinking

like, Oh,

hallelujah.

He just,

you know,

and he

said,

yeah, just

pick up

the phone.

Just talk

to I went,

Yes. And I

think

that, you

know, talk

to people,

meet with

people,

get in

front of

people.

That's,

that's

when that

happens.

And the

story you

told was

the the

individual

in the

email was

really

cross

about

something

that had

happened

in the

business.

Nothing to

do with

him. It

was a it

was a

support

call or

something.

And the

support

guy said,

well, I

need this

information.

And he

said,

Well,

you've

already

got it.

This is

going back

and forth.

And Oscar,

my son,

phone,

phoned him

up and

said, Hey,

are you

having a

problem

with this?

Do you

know what

the first

thing this

guy said?

He said,

Oscar, I'm

so I'm so

sorry. I

probably

was just,

you know,

ranting

that poor

guy. I

didn't, I

didn't

mean to do

that.

Thank

Thanks for

calling.

Yeah, we

got a

problem

with so

and so he

apologized

straight

away,

because he

knew as

well. So I

think, you

know,

empathy

can go a

long way

when you

actually

have a

conversation,

or you're

in front

somebody,

or you're

talking to

Mark Ackers: I

totally

agree. I

always use

the same

example.

You might

have heard

it, but

just how

the

written

word could

be lost.

Oh yeah.

So the

sentence

if you

heard is,

I didn't

say she

stole the

money.

Have you

heard of

this

example? I

think I

know where

you're

going with

it. So

basically,

that

sentence,

I didn't

say she

stole the

money. You

can

emphasize

any word,

and the

sentence

completely

changes

the

meaning.

Yeah, it's

a pick up

random

word about

that

sentence,

money. I

didn't say

she stole

the money,

right? We

know what

I mean.

Now, pick

different

word, say,

I didn't

say if you

stole the

money.

Totally

different,

interesting.

I reckon

I've asked

people to

pick a

word

couple 100

times.

Everyone

always

picks the

word

stole, but

you went

for money.

No,

because I

knew that

you

probably

knew that

you wanted

me to say

stole,

yeah, but

that's my

point.

When

you're

reading an

email,

yeah, you

read it

how you

want to

read it,

not

necessarily

how it's

been

written.

This comes

back down

to being

under

pressure.

Yeah,

Unknown: it

does. And

I think

you raise

a good

point on

that, and

it's also

true with

I mean, I

don't work

with a lot

of SDR

outbound

team,

because I

know that

we've got

some

people

that do a

brilliant

job of

that, much

better

than I

would ever

do. But I

one of the

things

that comes

across

when I

have seen

and

listened

to those

conversations

is also

the

tonality

in what

people do.

So you

know, one

that I

think, one

of the

worst

things

that I've

I can, I

still hear

and see,

is when

people are

given

scripts,

unless you

can get

into a way

talking,

get your

tonality

right,

your pace,

your

cadence,

everything's

going on,

you could

come

across

really,

really

awkward.

You can

Mark Ackers: tell

when

someone's

reading

from a

script.

Yeah, I

believe

you should

have a

script,

but it's

more how I

would

describe

if I was

gonna get

in the car

now, yeah,

with you

and drive

Manchester,

I could

get you

there. No

bother.

I've done

that drive

hundreds

of times.

I still

have a sat

nav on. I

don't

stare at

it because

I'd crash,

sure,

because

we'd be

deep in

conversation.

I know I'd

miss the

exit

because

I'm just,

I'm not so

I sort of

feel like

script

should be

just that

safety

net, that

checkpoint

that you

sort of

just

glance at

when you

need it.

But yeah,

when

someone

SAT

reading

from a

script,

kind of

like this.

Now I've

got stuff

in front

of me, but

I'm not

word for

word you.

It's kind

of makes

me feel

good,

yeah,

sure, but

yeah, I

see a

point and

what, what

are some

of the

common

challenges

then that

first time

sales

leader

face

depends

Unknown: on

the

situation.

I was

working

with

somebody

recently

who moved

into a

leadership

role where

it was his

peers that

he was he

was

working

with, and

we're

going

through

some

conversations

and

exploring

some ways.

Of of

working

that out,

because

one

minute,

he's one

of the

boys and

one of the

gang and

having

some fun

and

whatever.

Now, you

know, now

he's the

boss. And

actually,

first time

we went to

he said,

Well,

you're not

the boss.

You've now

just got a

different

job. But

the I

think it's

whether

you're

inheriting

a team,

whether

you're

growing a

team,

whether

you you've

moved into

a role in

different

organization,

there is a

situational

thing. So

Mark Ackers: happy

to talk

about any

of those,

but I

think

they've

all,

they're

all very

different,

yeah? So I

was just

thinking,

recently

had Carly

pledge on,

right? And

she spoke

about

inheriting

a team,

yeah,

okay. And

the

reality

is, when

you take a

first time

manager

role. It's

normally

one of the

other you

either

inherit a

team

because

you've not

been

promoted

internally,

yeah,

you've

gone and

taken the

first time

manager

job

somewhere

else, and

the team

exists.

Obviously,

it could

be you're

the first

higher

boots in

the ground

or that.

But

typically

inherited,

or you go

from being

one of the

team to

managing

the team.

Let's talk

about

that,

because

that is, I

would say,

probably

common,

because

top

performer

gets

promoted

internally,

so don't

lose them.

I've

experienced

this going

from being

one of the

group,

yeah, to

managing

the group.

And I've

had my own

difficulties

there,

where I

felt like

all of a

sudden, I

shouldn't

stay out

for those

beings. I

should go

home and

let the

team have

their fun.

I've

realized

there's

Slack

channels

that I'm

no longer

invited to

and but

talk to

me. What's

that like

when you

go from

being the

IC to the

manager of

that team?

And what

can

managers

expect?

Before I

answer

that, I'm

intrigued.

Why? Why

did you

feel like

you

couldn't

go out for

the beers?

I've

changed

since,

okay, it

was, it

wasn't I

felt like

I couldn't

go out.

It's I

felt like

they

couldn't

let their

hair down

if I was

there, and

I felt

like if I

went away,

that's

when they

could

properly

just say

what

they're

thinking,

talk

amongst

themselves.

And I

don't know

that that

was a me

thing,

Unknown: but

they

didn't see

you as the

senior

credit

card

holder for

the drinks

they all

had pleas.

No, I

think, I

think it's

a really

important

question,

because,

yeah, your

role has

changed

within

that group

dynamic,

right?

Yeah, I

think it's

also

similar,

if people

can

reference

it to you

know, you

becoming

the

captain of

the team

when you

have that

opportunity,

and you

against

the

players.

So there's

you're

still,

you're

still

playing in

the team,

but now

you're the

captain

you might

make in

some of

the

decisions.

So I think

I mean, if

you

inherit,

if you're

moving

into that

role,

rather

than

inheriting

your your

you know

your team.

You know

the

individuals,

because

you've

been

working

with them

quite a

while,

quite a

for, quite

a while

already.

So you'll,

you'll

have a

good

understanding

them. So

if you

inherit,

and I'd

say that

you just

don't do a

lot for a

little

while, you

just watch

and think,

I think

that's

what Kylie

said about

it as

well,

right? Oh,

you're a

listener

of the

podcast. I

do, yeah,

what's

your

favorite

episode?

The worst

sales,

worst UK

sex,

what's his

worst?

He's the

most

hated.

Hated

that's

quite

different.

Oh, I've

got, I'm

sorry, the

most

hated. So

it was

Benjamin,

yeah, he'd

have a

very

different

business

if he was

a label

himself.

Was the

worst.

Yeah,

don't

label

yourself

as that,

Benjamin.

That's got

me, that's

got me in

a whole

heap of

trouble.

Mark Ackers: Probably

not, but

sorry, I

I've

massively

taken you

off track

there. So

you said

Carly

recently

spoke

about

inheritance.

You're

right. She

did. Yeah,

Unknown: so

and, and

that is a

situation

where you

don't do

anything

for a

while. You

really

want to

understand

something,

but if

you're

becoming

that

leader of

that team,

you

probably

know

people's

situations,

and I

think that

that's

when you

you know

where

people are

likely to

be good,

lacking,

need,

support,

whatever,

because

you've

observed

it, your

your

yourself.

And I

think the

the key

thing for

me, when

that's

happened

to it's

only

happened

to me

once,

actually,

because

I've

moved, but

I've made

sure that

I had

permission

to help

people in

certain

ways. So

let me,

let me

unpack or

explain

that a

little

bit. So

rather

than

jumping in

with your

your

ideas,

because

you've

seen

something

that you

know could

be fixed

in a

certain

way, you

really

gotta dig

into, or

lean into

your your

your

coaching

mindset

about how

to do

that, so

you don't

go and try

and fix

people.

And I it's

one thing

I've

always

I've

struggled

with a

lot, I

still

struggle

with it

now, is

that I

want to

try

personally.

I want to

try and

fix and

help and

do the

thing,

rather

than coach

and advise

the whole,

sort of

teach a

man a fish

and

feeding

man a

fish,

right? And

I think

that's,

that's the

that's

the. Key

to be able

to do a

great job

with the

people

you're

already

working

with.

Mark Ackers: Let's

talk about

when you

start

leading a

team. You

mentioned

it earlier

when I

asked it.

Yeah, you

could do

that role

being crap

at sales.

You

mentioned

the word

trust and

credibility.

Yeah, I

would

argue,

regardless,

you've got

to build

that trust

and

credibility.

How do you

do that?

Walk

Unknown: the

Talk. Do

what you

do, what

you say

you're

going to

do. You've

got to be

real. You

can't I

think I've

seen this

work badly

for people

when

they've

not been

true to

the way,

true to

themselves,

the way

they want

things to

run so

you've got

to act

like you

want other

people to

behave,

and you've

got to act

how you

want other

people to

engage.

And a big

part of

that is,

is the

communication

and

getting

feedback

and

getting

people

talking

all the

time and

making

sure that

we all

understand

each

other. And

I would, I

would

really

work on

the

interactions

amongst

the

amongst

the team

themselves

as well.

So it's

not just

relationship

with them,

it's their

relationship

with me,

but it's

their

relationships

with each

other as

well. So

you're

trying to

pull that

together

in one go.

How do you

do that? I

think it's

just, you

know,

making it

a non

threatening,

supportive.

This

sounds a

bit I'm

going to

go on a

woke

stream

here, but

inclusive

environment.

But

they're

generally,

and that's

good way

describing

now, is,

is,

there's,

you know,

there

isn't any

wrong

answers,

there

isn't any

stupid

questions.

There

isn't

anything

that

people

can't do

and just

make

people

feel

comfortable

that they

can openly

discuss

and bring

things

without

any sort

of fear of

failure.

Mark Ackers: I

think,

like you

say,

walking

the walk

is kind of

you, if

you

demonstrate

that

yourself,

you can

enable

that. And

what about

a sales

manager

that's

lost that

trust with

the team

and

credibility?

Can we get

it back?

Very

Unknown: difficult.

I think

actually,

if I'm if

I'm going

to be

bluntly

honest

with you,

depends on

the

specific

situation

and what

trust was

was lost.

But yes,

as we

probably

all know,

trust

takes a

long time

to build,

and can be

broken in

a second.

So yeah,

that's,

that's a

tough one.

I mean, if

we're in

that

position,

I think,

again,

depending

on what it

is, you've

got to

have an

ability to

own it and

be honest

and front

it up and

and show

your own

humility

and the

mistake or

whatever

that you

made, then

you have a

chance.

Yeah. Have

you ever

seen that

happen

before,

where a

sales

manager

has just

lost a

team?

Yeah,

unfortunately,

yeah.

Could it

have been

resolved,

or did it

not work

out? Could

it have

been

resolved?

That's a

really

good

question

I'm

thinking

about, I

obviously

have to

keep Yeah,

no, I

don't

think it

could. It

could have

been it

was a

particular

situation

where

mistakes

were made,

which were

kind of

against a

lot of

ethical

stuff in

in a in

the

business,

in the

company,

and you

break

that,

that's

kind of

that's a

tough one

to that's

tough one

to break.

Let's talk

about

leaving

diverse

teams

then. So

you've

built

teams that

include

account

managers,

new

business

sales, pre

sales,

consulting.

Mark Ackers: How

do you

unify a

diverse

team with

different

roles and

objectives

under one

vision?

It's one

Unknown: of

my, one of

favorite

topics. So

thank you

for

bringing

that up.

We had at

fair sale,

which you

mentioned,

was the

company

that we we

sold on to

Sage when

we were

growing

that as a

as a scale

business,

we had

this

methodology,

if you

like. It

wasn't

mine, but

the exact

kind of we

kind of

came up

with this

idea of,

of working

in in in

pods, and

I think

it's a

concept

that now

actually

out there.

I don't

know, I

don't know

sure

whether we

come up

with it or

whatever,

but it was

putting

together,

you know,

the AES,

the

solution

consultants,

the the

SDRs,

maybe even

the, you

know, the

customer

success

team,

which will

come in

afterwards

whatever,

and get

them

working

together

as a unit

throughout

the sales

cycle. So

they were

threaded

all the

way all

the way

through,

and the

pods would

would work

particular

areas. So

maybe

there's

maybe they

work in

the

finance.

Vertical,

or a

certain

regional,

vertical,

whatever

it would

be. And it

was

really,

really

strong,

because

they kind

of bounced

off each

other and

built a

lot of

camaraderie

amongst

the team

itself,

and they

acted like

a little

pod team,

rather

than sales

being

here, pre

sales

being

there,

SDRs being

here,

marketing

being

there. So

it was

kind of

Mark Ackers: they

were

working

together

as a

collective.

And I

think

that's a

really

strong way

actually

going

going to

market out

there.

I've

experienced

that

myself,

actually,

although I

was

working

for an

American

company at

the time,

and they

were

called

airplanes,

and

airplanes,

yeah, so

we had the

SDR, was

the

gunner,

Oh, I see

okay. I

was the

senior AE,

so I was

the pilot.

I had a

junior AE,

that was

the co

pilot. And

then we

had CS.

That was

kind of

more this,

because

that makes

CS sound

terrible,

but like

Stuart in

terms of

making

sure

everyone's

comfortable

and happy,

etc, yeah,

chicken or

beef

appreciate

they won't

like that.

But on the

whole,

that

worked

really

well

because we

then went

after

different

verticals,

different

market

sizes,

yeah. The

worst part

about all

of it was

all the

names that

were given

to the

airplanes.

It was,

Unknown: it

was very,

I can

imagine,

yeah, they

went right

with this

that,

yeah,

Mark Ackers: we'll,

we'll move

on. But in

terms of

so that's

diverse,

in terms

different

skills and

roles,

yeah,

let's talk

about

having

diverse

people in

the team

then. So

one of the

things

that I see

managers

do is

hiring

their own

image.

It's easy,

yeah, as I

said

earlier,

interviewing

someone,

and you

think we

get on

with very

similar,

similar

tastes. I

know this

person

works, a

lot of

people

would

think

that's

obviously

the easy

thing to

do. Hire

people

that you

know how

they work

and ticks

are just

like you,

yeah, but

you're

saying

you've

done that,

and that

was a

mistake.

Tell us

more about

that.

Unknown: I

can't

really it

was a NLP

thing,

wasn't it?

That whole

mirroring

thing? You

know, that

was a big

thing. And

for

rapport

building.

And I

remember

even once,

somebody

pointed

out to me

that there

was me and

a couple

of the

guys in

that had

control

work, that

had

responsibility

for a

couple of

teams, and

we're all

in brass

shoes,

brown

chinos,

little

gilay

jacket,

just like,

Oh, my,

what have

I done?

So, but so

why is it

wrong?

Because

you're not

going to

see things

through a

different

lens or a

different

perspective.

You're not

going to

see you're

not going

to see

things in

completely

different

way. And

it never

ceases to

surprise

or amaze

me, the

things I

miss

because of

my own

sort of

myopic

vision on

something

you know,

or you

know. I

mean, the

whole sort

discussion

nowadays

is all

around

your your

biases,

and I've

I've

looked and

and I've

been aware

of this

myself,

and I try

to sort of

take note

of it. I

think you,

you, we

all have

unconscious

bias,

which we

can't

help, and

you just

have to

recognize

that you

can't help

your

unconscious

bias. But

if you're

aware of

your

unconscious

bias, then

you can do

something

about it.

And yeah,

the way

somebody

looks, the

way

somebody

talks, the

way

somebody

acts,

their

their and,

yeah, I'll

mention it

out here,

their

their age,

their

gender. It

all comes

into it,

but if

you're

aware of

it, then

you can

actually

something

about it.

And you

know, be

positive

and

reactive

in the

right way.

Most

Mark Ackers: organizations

equip

their

sellers

with all

the

technology

they need

to be

successful.

Technology

that

trebles

the amount

of emails

they can

send,

quadruples

the amount

of dials

they can

make,

technology

that

enables

you to see

accounts

that you

should

prospect

into phone

numbers at

your

fingertips

technology

to make a

sales rep

efficient

with their

time.

Here's the

missing

piece,

actually

making

your

sellers

better at

selling

better at

their

profession.

That's the

missing

piece. All

this

technology

is really

helpful in

speeding a

rep up,

but none

of it

actually

helps the

seller get

better at

their

profession.

That's

what my

sales

coach

does. We

work with

the

individuals

in your

team and

you as

their

leader to

help them

become the

best

versions

themselves.

We have

coaches

that work

with

sellers

tactically,

from

outbounding,

Discovery

calls,

demos,

negotiation,

closing,

you name

it, and

mentally

impostor

syndrome,

anxiety,

stress and

weight of

targets,

our

coaches

have been

there and

done it

and had

success in

those

roles. Is

there a

way in

which you

try to

build and

recruit

teams then

to make

sure

you've got

that

different

perspective

and

opinions?

Unknown: I

Yeah,

this. So

this is a

controversial

course,

yeah, the

whole sort

of, do you

do? Higher

in a bias

way for

maybe

gender,

ethnicity

whatever.

And I

don't

think you

should, I

don't

think you

should, to

be honest,

is this is

a just a

personal

opinion,

but I

think you,

if you're

aware of

it, then

you won't

make the

unconscious

bias

decisions.

But you

should

always,

you should

always

hire on

the basis

of making

sure

somebody

can

actually

do the

job. And I

think that

that's

because if

you, if

you don't

do that,

then

that's

unfair on

the people

that

you've

been

consciously

biased

with for

the

positive

reason,

and it

kind of

undermines

the whole

point of

view

anyway, so

I think

it's an

awareness,

but you

you have

to have a

way of

understanding

what you

actually

want out

of the

individual

you're

hiring two

things

that I

Constance

whether

You're

hiring an

IC or a

manager or

whatever,

are

curiosity

and a

willingness

to to

learn and

but, but

again,

those two

things are

to use

your word

from

earlier,

the traits

that I

want in

people.

But people

are, are,

you know,

learning

different

ways. Want

to learn

different

ways, and

they can

be curious

different

ways, but

as long as

somebody

is a

curious

person,

and once

they wants

Mark Ackers: move

with

continuous

learning,

then I

don't

mind,

actually,

how they

do that.

That's,

that's the

method.

The trait

is the

important

part. So

as a first

time

leader,

it's no

different

to be in

the nice

in the

sense of

there are

lots of

ups and

downs.

Right? The

lows are

low, the

highs are

high.

Let's talk

about

dealing

with

failure.

How should

first time

leaders

handle

failure,

not their

own

anymore,

though

their

teams. How

should

they deal

with that

in a way

that helps

their

team?

Unknown: I

think

that's one

of the

strong

attributes

that a

leader can

actually a

sales

leader can

actually

bring to

this

actually,

is being

able to

help

everybody

learn from

those kind

of if

something's

gone wrong

or some

mistake

has been

made,

because,

again,

you're,

you know,

if you're

leading by

example in

that,

you're not

going to

jump on

somebody

for for

the

mistake.

You're

going to

use the

opportunity

to make

sure that

that

lesson, if

you like,

learned,

but you

can, you

can

discuss it

and

deliver it

and debate

it as a

group

without,

again,

without

that

individual

being or

feeling

that

they're

being

attacked

about it

or put

down about

it. So I

think,

yeah,

that's a

great way

of showing

strong

leadership

in being

able to

take

something

like that

and

turning it

into a

positive

Can you

give me

Mark Ackers: one

of, if not

the

biggest

failures

you've had

as a sales

leader?

Unknown: Again,

names and

things

will have

to remain

out of

this. But

I think

one of the

one

particular

occasion I

didn't I

didn't

check in

enough

around the

direction

of travel,

the the

team I the

business,

was going

in. I made

too many

assumptions

about the

success we

were

having and

how that

success

was being

understood

and

received.

And I

didn't

make

enough

checks

with my

own

leadership.

About Is

that true?

And going

back to

that

conversation

we had

earlier

about the

individual

contributor,

in that

way, it's

that sort

of need to

sort of

always be

qualifying

the deal

you should

always be,

or you

should

constantly

qualify

what you

think,

what

you're

doing is

what they

think is

the right

thing as

well. So,

yeah, I

made it, I

made a

mistake,

and was

too

assumptive,

and it was

too late,

probably

to turn it

around

when I

realized

it, so

what did?

How was

the

fallout?

actually

parted

ways,

right? It

wasn't

acrimonious

in any

way. It

was. It

was kind

of more

like, this

is not,

this is

not

working

out as as

we both

expected,

and that's

actually,

that's

actually

fine, but

it it

didn't

need to

get to

that point

if I had

been and I

take full

responsibility

for it,

but if I'd

have been

attentive,

I think,

understanding

the the

receiving,

of what

was going

on and

what what

I was

doing and

what the

team were

delivering,

probably

wouldn't

have got

to that

point.

We'd have,

we'd have

worked. It

out. So,

you

Mark Ackers: know,

my bad for

not

actually

making

sure that

we were

being open

and honest

and

discussing

that, I

think

let's talk

about so

you've

actually

learned

lessons

there,

right?

Learn a

lot of

lessons. I

think

that's the

thing.

When

you're, I

mean, any

first time

role, but

when

you're a

sales

leader,

and his

first time

in that

role, in

particular,

you're

going to

learn a

lot. How

important

is it when

you're in

leadership

role to

have a

coach,

someone

that has

walked in

those

shoes

before,

had the

success

that you

want to

have. How

important

is it to

have a

coach that

you can

work with

as a sales

leader?

Unknown: Vital

Yeah,

well, I

would say

that,

wouldn't

I, because

we're on

the My

sales

coach

podcast.

Thank you

for

coming.

But no, I

think

coaching

is is so

important.

And to use

exactly

your

words,

though,

something

that's

been in

your

shoes,

that's

done it,

and that's

also

actually

kind of

what I

really

enjoy from

working

with you

guys as

well,

because

you can

see, I've

seen

people

trip up

and fail

BEC,

because

they

haven't

got that

access to

somebody

who's seen

it and

been

there. And

even if we

can help a

few people

avoid some

of those

potholes,

that's

That's

fantastic,

and a

coach is

not there

to make

those

decisions

and tell

you, it's

not a

you're not

training

I'm not

training

people to

be a

manager,

but I'm

I'm a

sounding

board. I

try to

help

people,

and people

have been

fantastic

coaches to

me over

the years,

where I've

kind of

listened

to their

experiences.

And you

take

sounding

boards

from

different

people,

it's not

just one

person.

That's the

other

thing I

would say

on this,

and you,

you make

your own

mark, but

you've

taken that

coaching

advice

from

somebody

that has

lived it,

that's

been

there, and

I think

that's

absolutely

vital.

Mark Ackers: Let's

imagine

someone's

listen to

this

podcast.

They're

either

wanting to

be or they

are a

sales lead

first

time, and

they don't

have a

coach. And

let's say

it's

because

they they

don't feel

like they

should, or

they're

not ready

to, or

that

they're a

little bit

skeptical.

But what

would you

what would

your

message

be? I

Unknown: think

my message

would be,

you know,

how? How

do you

expect to

learn

something,

understand

something,

get to a

point of

success

without

actually

having any

advice and

coaching

on a on

what

you're

doing. I

mean, you

wouldn't

jump into

a car

after

reading a

book on

how to

drive

cars. You

you'd have

a drive

instructor.

You

wouldn't

you

wouldn't

run out on

the rugby

field and

start

playing in

different

position

without

actually

having

some

coaching

advice on

how how to

do that.

So I

think,

yeah,

it's, it's

kind of if

you're

not, if

you

wouldn't

do that,

then

you're not

sure

you've

really

understood

the the

requirements

of moving

into a

different

role. And

I think

that if

you're, if

you do

that on

your own,

you've

just put

yourself

into a

much

higher

risk

category.

More sense

well,

because

you,

you've, if

you, if

you can

work with

somebody

who's been

there and

done it,

then

you've got

a you've

got a

reference

point

that's

actually

going to

help you,

if you're

just going

to do it

off the

off your

own back,

I just

think

that's

risky. You

might be

successful.

You might

extremely

observant.

You might

be able to

consume

all the

how to be

a manager

books in a

very

valuable

way. But I

don't

actually

believe

that. I

think that

you

actually

need

somebody

to have a

two way

conversation,

understand

the

details

and get

under the

covers of

it, rather

than just,

you know,

reading

and

observing

love that

Mark Ackers: Alan

and I

think,

really

well

articulated.

As we're

getting

close to

the end, I

want to

talk about

leadership

Styles.

Styles,

right?

Okay,

there's

different

styles of

leadership.

What

advice

would you

give to a

new sales

leader

trying to

develop

their own

leadership

style and

find their

own sort

of voice?

How should

they go

about

doing

that? I

don't

Unknown: want

to trip up

on that

word that

Springs

immediately

to mind,

to go be

authentic,

because

you got to

be you,

right? But

also, like

the the

recent

podcast

with

Benjamin

as well,

where he

was kind

of saying,

you know,

pretend,

fake it

till you

make it

kind of

thing as

well.

Well, I

think

you've got

to unpack

what

you're

trying to

achieve.

So you've

got to,

you've got

to kind of

look at

the job in

in a

delivery

sense,

what are

you going

deliver?

How are

you going

to deliver

it? I've

been

talking to

a guy

recently

that's

trying to

put his

own

strategy

together,

and we've

been

talking

about a

strategy

document

that he

wants to

take to

his exec

and the

board, and

the

strategy

is taking

some new

products

into a

different

market,

and that's

kind of

the

headline,

but then

it's okay,

so how are

you going

to do

that? Who

you're

going to

do that

with, who

you're

going to

go after.

What are

the

systems in

place? Who

are the

people?

What's the

messaging?

And so you

gradually

start

filling,

filling

that out.

And I

think your

style then

comes from

the fact

that you

understand

what you

can do

well, in

that where

you need

your own

you own

help, what

might be

the key

determining

factors to

get that

going? And

then I

think that

actually

then

determines

your own

style that

you'll go

after. So

I think if

you look

at it from

a how

you're

going to

deliver

what the

job

requires,

that will

actually

determine

your

strategy,

when you

understand

how you're

going to

how you're

going

Mark Ackers: to

deliver

it. Alan,

thank you

so much

for coming

on. I've

really

enjoyed

like just

focusing

on one

subject,

which is

aspiring

sales

leaders,

first time

sales

leaders,

and on

what that

world

looks

like. I

know, as I

say, I

know it's

my words,

but it's

true. Just

such a

rich

history

and level

experience

there. I

think

anyone

listening

to this is

going to

take a lot

from this

episode.

How can

people

find more

about you

and follow

you? Where

can they

find you?

Unknown: Yeah,

well, I

should

take some

of my

advice

really

about the

website

still not

up for me.

I kind of

work under

the radar

a bit. But

yeah, I'm

on, I'm on

LinkedIn.

That's

probably

the

easiest

way to

find me.

There's,

there's

just my

own

profile,

which is

Alan

Clark, and

then

there's an

Allen

Clark

consulting

profile.

So yeah,

you can

just, you

can find

me on the

on the

or through

you guys,

because I

do a lot

of work

with you

guys now.

So I

Mark Ackers: was

gonna say,

If anyone

wants to

have some

actual

coaching

from you.

We can,

can match

them up

and they

can get

coaching

for you

from my

sales

coach.

Absolutely,

absolutely

Alan,

thanks for

coming in

and great

to have

you in

Newcastle.

Thank you

very much.

Thank you.

You.

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