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Killer Quote: "We want to play in making, breaking and remaking all of the polymers that are important... I think we also have a responsibility to then figure out how do we break those polymers after use to avoid it becomes a waste or landfill or worse and break those back into useful components that can then be circulated back into making. So make, break and remake those polymers." – Leon de Bruyn
Looking to lead, grow, and stay ahead in the trillion-dollar global chemical industry? The Chemical Show - the #1 business podcast for the chemical industry - is your go-to resource for leadership insights, business strategies, and real-world lessons from the executives shaping the future of chemicals. Grow your knowledge, your network, and your impact.
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Welcome to The Chemical Show, the
podcast where Chemical means business.
I'm your host, Victoria Meyer,
bringing you stories and insights
from leaders driving innovation and
growth across the chemical industry.
Each week we explore key trends,
real world challenges, and the
strategies that make an impact.
Let's get started.
Victoria: Welcome back to The Chemical
Show where Leaders Talk Business.
Today I am speaking with Leon De Bruin,
who is the CEO of Lummus Technologies.
You may recall that Leon was a guest
on the The Chemical Show in 2023.
We're gonna link to his prior episode
in the show notes, and we're really
building on that conversation.
'cause of course, Leon is a leader
in transformation and Lummus is a
tech, a company in transformation.
Um, they've recently celebrated their.
Fifth anniversary, as
a independent company.
And so there's a lot to talk about here.
So Leon, welcome to the Chemical Show.
Thank you Victoria.
Very happy to be back.
I'm really happy to have you here.
Let's start with your origin story.
And I know folks may know a little
bit about you, but let's refresh
listeners and to our new listeners.
Tell us a little bit about Leon De Bruin
and how you got to be where you are today.
Well, as a chemical engineer, I.
Started my career in 1993 and I
joined Lummus as my first employer.
And I hope to retire from
Lummus, hopefully not as soon.
And so I've really worked my entire
professional career in Lummus, but in
various different locations and positions.
And I've gotten to know the company inside
out from all those different positions.
And I got to work with so many
different people in the organization.
Got to.
People, and through them many aspects of
our business and of course our customers.
So I, I like to say that after
30 plus years, I'm starting to
understand our business a little bit.
Just a bit.
And you've been CEO now for
five years, is that right?
On the dot five years, yes.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Awesome.
So let's talk a little bit about Lummus.
Just give us a brief overview to Lummus
Technologies and who you are today.
So s in my belief is.
The only pure play technology
company of this size.
We are the largest process technology
company for our downstream industry
with a portfolio of over 160
unique commercialized technologies.
And to give you an idea of how fast
we move and have moved in the last
five years, we have commercialized.
Many technologies.
We added almost 50 new technologies
just in the last five years.
50 new technologies that's more than many
companies have in their entire portfolio.
So we are very innovative.
Our culture is obsessed with driving
improvements, new innovations, and
working with customers so that they
have the benefit of those improvements.
So we're a pure play
process technology company.
Greatest in the world.
I love that.
Well, and of course we talked about this
on our prior, interview that we had just
in terms of Lummus', history, right?
Because it's a over a hundred
years old, if I'm right.
Um, yep.
And a big part of its time had been
as part of EPC companies, and of
course I think people across the
chemical industry, those that are
certainly close to technology and
manufacturing or maybe projects, know
Lummus and no Lummus technologies.
As part of that entity and as kind of
one of the platform technologies across
the industry, chemicals and refinery.
So it's, uh, it's always
interesting to me to see how an
old company becomes new again.
So, last time when you and I
spoke, uh, is it two years ago, we
talked about a hundred plus year
old company in startup mode, and
that's, that's still how it feels.
We fortunately are an independent,
pure play technology company without
an owner that is in a different line
of business and struggles to understand
our business or worse Tries to put
our business in a different harness
than a technology company should be.
So I think.
What helps us on our journey is every
dollar we invest is into innovation, into
technologies, into the people driving it.
Yeah.
Uh, and we can focus on that
innovation day in, day out.
And that helps us as we
try to attack the future.
and maybe we, we should talk about the
future a little bit, but I can say the
reputation of Lummus around the world, and
you mentioned it, Victoria is very strong.
People know the brand from.
Long time ago.
And I think with that reputation
also comes a moral obligation
or duty to keep servicing our
energy industry in a positive way.
And I think we're on a fast track
the last few years have shown
it, and we have to look forward.
What else are we going to do?
Yeah.
And I think that's great.
And I know, um, I know we've talked
a lot about your old technologies,
your new technologies, and
maybe we can talk touch on that.
But even the fact that, since you've
become independent, you guys haven't
sat idle and you're not looking only
at innovation internally, but you've
actually acquired something like 50 new
technologies over the last five years.
I mean, that's a third of your portfolio.
That's right.
uh, we don't sit still.
we're like a startup company in
constant movement mode, and this
high energy Victoria kind of nurtures
an environment where people, I.
Ideas fast, and we either succeed fast
or we fail fast, that we get to progress.
And if we fail fast, we learn
and we know what else to do,
how to make things succeed.
If we succeed fast, we fast pace
towards commer commercialization
of our new technologies.
So you, you talked about old technologies.
I'd like to call them traditional
technologies because even in our
traditional technologies, there's
so much innovation possible.
I.
And probably our entire industry was
a little bit passive in improving,
perfecting these traditional technologies
where with energy transition, now there's
so much focus on efficiency, of course,
under the, the guides of dehumanization.
But it's all about using the same
amount of resources to a, in a
better way, a more efficient way.
Limit our resources to
achieve the same outcomes.
So less utilities consumption in Italy,
less firing or maybe allowing multiple
different sources of energy from
electricity to fuel gas to hydrogen
to ammonia, to produce, athlete.
So even though is one of our cornerstones
on our portfolio and a traditional
technology, we are fast paced.
In that space.
And of course the new technologies.
so my vision, and I'll,
I'll give you tidbits.
Uh, so first of all, we want to play
in making, breaking and remaking all of
the polymers that are important, making.
We have all the monomer technologies.
We have the polymer technologies
to make these polymers that go into
consumer product and also have a
responsibility to figure out how do we.
Break those polymers after use to
avoid it becomes a waste or landfill
or worse, and break those back into
useful components that can then
be circulated back into making.
So make, break and remake those polymers.
Second water, water is going
to be more important than oil.
Also in our industry and
of, of course in society.
So clean water is, is vital to
everything that lives on the planet.
I think as a society and as
our industry specifically, we
have a duty to clean water.
So water treatment technologies is going
to be integral to process technologies.
So that's why we acquired the simPRO
portfolio from Siemens Energy.
Two years ago and embedded into
our technology offerings and
then going more circular, biomass
monetization, other waste monetization,
other circular feedstocks.
They have to be part of the whole
spectrum of technologies that are going
to service the needs around the world for.
All the demands around manmade
products and energy carriers, 'cause
that demand is growing very fast.
We cannot rely on just the traditional
solutions we have to augment it, add to
that more untraditional or solutions so
that we mitigate impact on environment.
It's a big task.
We have to work together.
And I, I take it very seriously for lunch.
Yeah, I, I have a couple of follow
up questions on that and, and I'm
gonna take the first one first.
It's always a good order.
Which is around the people
and the culture side of this.
Right?
So I think one of the aspects
of becoming really innovative
is often uncomfortable, right?
So I think just the transformation that
Lummus has gone through going from being
owned by engineering companies, and we
touched on this previously when we spoke
the, the fact that, you know, you're.
Tracking hours and it's, and
it's all about deliverables.
And yet innovation is sometimes, you
have to be a little bit unbounded
during part of that timeframe.
Um, but you also just have a, to have
a different mindset and a different
culture that really drives and
embraces speed, innovation and change.
How is that playing out for Lummus?
So, I think you're spot on.
So for your listeners, and I think many
of your listeners are trying to figure
out how can we do more, how can we
innovate more beyond what we already do,
whether it's an operation innovation,
can increase profitability, reduce
downtime of an asset, or whether you
are in the implementation of projects,
how can we innovate to have faster,
less risky delivery in a shorter
timeframe, but also at a lower cost?
Uh, for long is no different.
we innovate to improve our process
technologies, but not only that, also
how we go about our work you have to,
as a company, at least in my opinion,
you have to set certain clarity.
Number one, people are okay to
try things and fill, you have
to remove that fear of failure.
So we have this culture of fearless
innovation in and we innovate.
Because of the high pace.
Very quickly we can assess whether
the innovation is gonna work or not.
And we are fearless if it's not so that
we get to the, the ones that do work.
Uh, and that means that anyone that
brings up ideas should be encouraged to
bring them instead of being reprimanded
for coming up with a so-called dumb
question because that so-called dumb
question actually might spark the best
innovation you could possibly think of.
Uh, also the fast pace.
Creates energy, creates excitement
and it causes people to, to
think outside of the box.
So it's a self-fulfilling prophecy
that is very positive, where people are
energized, they are fearless to speak
up, share their ideas, or try things and
quickly figure out whether things work.
And if they work, we fast track
them to commercialization.
To give you two examples, we
brought into our portfolio.
High density polyethylene in partnership
with our partner from Thailand, SCG.
And it was a mature technology,
but together we imperfect it.
And with that perfection, we looked for
a first user of our improved technology.
Within the year of our collaboration,
we landed the first licensee
in that space, and it's going
to be announced soon, but it.
Getting a commercialization
within one year is a world record.
The second is we have, of course acquired
SAP technology, super absorbent polymer.
Both are in line with this make
break and remake all the polymers.
So we landed our first licensee
within one and a half years
after acquiring the technology.
That was not necessarily
developed in partnership.
So a bit more, uh, weight carried by
Lummus, but again, fast commercialization
and so I'm very proud of what our
organization turns out, but I'm
even prouder to see that come to
fruition in actual plans being built.
I.
Absolutely.
That's always, um, that's
always the hard part, right?
It's easy to come up with the
idea of the actual implementation.
And commercial acceptance
can be, can be trickier.
I think, what strikes me is we're
in an a period of time where there's
just a lot of uncertainty, right?
When I talk to leaders across the
chemical industry, they talk about
how, um, we've certainly seen, and
you see the news articles as well
in the headlines as well as I do.
Yep.
The number of shutdowns we're
seeing, particularly in Europe.
There seems to be a throttling
back in other parts of the world,
and you guys are a company that.
Thrives on and, and is predicated
really on new investments or maybe
improvements to those investments.
How do you handle this uncertainty?
Because it's both with your existing
technologies, with your new technologies,
we're in a period of uncertainty and
it strikes me that you guys are maybe,
sometimes the, the tail, you know,
the tail that's wagging the dog or
the dog that's wagging the tail that
you're sometimes there at the tail
potentially getting whipped around.
And how do you keep your team on
track, on focus, recognizing that
this is perhaps cyclical, perhaps not.
How do you tackle that?
I'm sad to see those closures.
Mm-hmm.
There were some announcements, I don't
want to name them, but there were some
announcements in Europe of plants that
I designed when I was a young engineer,
of course, as part of a big team.
And so those plans are like 20 years old
and they get, it's heartbreaking, right?
It's per, it's personal to you
when you've been involved in it.
It is heartbreaking and.
these plans are like a baby.
You, you've worked with a whole
team to create them and 20 years in,
they're nowhere near their end of life.
Yeah.
So it is almost a waste of capital.
Uh, so you're right.
And this is, this is.
Not an instant.
This is unfortunately
symptomatic to our industry.
There's clearly over capacity,
especially in, in petrochemicals.
Or you can say the matching demand
is not there, where it would be maybe
because of some of the externalities
that we faced over the last five years.
Yeah.
Who knows?
But economics will drive those decisions.
Right.
long, it's slightly
different than you think.
So about a third of our revenues are from
new capacity investment, so it's still
sizable, but two thirds of our revenues
are from existing infrastructure, existing
assets that were licensed many years ago.
So our business model is about.
Competing for technology
license with a customer that
is planning for an investment.
And as we are successful, we
then start a long, long term
relationship with the customer that
initially is in the CapEx space.
Yeah.
And this is the one third of our revenues
where we license a technology, we create a
blueprint of their investment, and we help
them making the most out, out of their
investment in the shortest time possible.
It then starts a very long, durable.
Next phase of their operating cycle
of our customers during which Lummus
continues to help the customer through
digital solutions, lifecycle services,
other tech services and consulting.
Of course, proprietary catalyst and other
formulations and proprietary equipment
and replacement of AIDS equipment.
So about two thirds of a business
is from the existing asset
base, and that's a growing base.
Yes, there are shutdowns, unfortunately,
but still net net it's a growing base.
I think long has a role to play
to support our customers before
they start the plant, when they
implement their capital expenditures.
And certainly also after they
operate the plant, start operating
it to help them on a journey.
And, you know, disclosures are
sad because I think many of these
assets can be repurposed, changed.
Enhanced in terms of profitability.
And we can play a role with our customers
to help them enhance the profitability of
the existing assets, which is usually a
very short return on investment decision.
'cause the CapEx is already there.
It's a matter of changing things.
Maybe different catalyst, maybe different
focus on different finished products,
different feedstock, all of the above.
And.
And again, it's about two
thirds of our revenues.
That's helpful actually.
That's really helpful.
So I guess it was a good question
So how does this tie in when you
think about, you know, traditional
versus sustainable technologies?
'cause the similar thing when I talk
to, um, cus companies across the
chemical industry, for instance, one
of the challenges that we're seeing
is kind of this question of who's
paying for sustainability, right?
So we all recognize that it's
critical, at being at the front end.
Of the funnel, so to speak, you,
it's important for Lummus and,
and companies like Lummus to
continue to innovate and identify,
these more sustainable solutions.
How do you see this playing forward?
Do you see the demand for sustainable
technologies continuing to be robust?
Is this part of the cyclicality that
we're just working our way through?
Um, or is it really an
evolutionary process?
So we have to acknowledge, Victoria,
our industry is here to stay.
Modern life, the quality of life
is impossible without our industry.
So let's acknowledge that.
And then the second acknowledgement
is the massive size of energy demands
through energy carriers, transportation,
and other, or through the materials that
we make that makes modern life possible.
Those materials and those energy
carriers have to be made from
something that contains carbon.
Yeah, and that carbon has
to come from somewhere.
And historically, traditionally
it came from natural resources, so
oil, gas, coal, other resources.
But the growing demand and the growth
that we have enjoyed in the last few
decades have caused an impact on.
Climate or other environmental
issues associated with this.
We have to acknowledge it too.
So the shes size, the fact that our
industry is not going to go away and
the fact that we have to do something
to avoid larger impact combined.
We all have a responsibility to play,
certainly for long as a technology.
So when I think about, and what you
just painted on this whole spectrum.
In a traditional way to energy energy
transformation or circularity.
We have to think about all of it.
And when we, when we look at the
total asset base, if we can improve
the total asset base by 2%, just
make it up 2% more efficiency Asset
base has been built up over 50 years.
So if we improve it by 2%, we have
a hundred percent equivalent of
total new investments that we could
decarbonize so that the gains we can
make from the traditional processing
is tremendous in total volume, and
we have to do it at the same time.
We are growing to serve the needs
for energy and materials, so the
new investments have to be more
efficient than the existing,
and they have to have enough.
Sustainability and improvements to
minimize impact on the environment.
Whether we go to a hundred percent
circularity or not, to me it's
not a relevant conversation.
The conversation has to be what can we
do constantly across those spectrum?
We can go to an existing petrochemical
facility, look at the ethylene plant and
say, what can we do on the feed stock?
On the heater and it is
efficiency, maybe air preheat.
What can we do on the product workup
sections to make it more efficient and
get more of the desired products and a
new, a new Ethan complex, maybe we say,
what can we do to do hydrogen firing or
a net zero cracker with electrification?
At the end of the day, all of these
investments have to make sense for
the people putting money into it.
Yeah, nobody's going
to invest a billion up.
If there's no return on investment, we
can love the planet as much as we want,
but we have to create the environment
through best technology and maybe
incentives or market to make sure that
those investments will find their ways
into what we are going to operate.
So for Lums, we look
at the whole spectrum.
We have to.
Yeah.
So it's interesting because
that, that's helpful too.
'cause it also, uh, you're
looking at it really not just as.
Net new, technologies with something
that hasn't been done before, but also
the sustainable improvement across all
these existing assets that are already
installed, existing technologies that
continue to evolve and get better.
And at the end of the day, some of the.
Sustainability is also, I mean,
I, I often tell people that the
chemical industry and refining and
chemicals are inherently sustainable.
Partly because every time there was a
waste stream, instead of it getting sent
off to the flare sent to waste, you know,
we wanted to figure out how do we use it?
'cause there's still
something useful in it.
Let's find a way to use it, improve
it, and continue moving forward.
So a lot of sustainability is
actually around efficiencies,
cost improvements, et cetera.
And, you know, there's
value even in waste streams.
There's values.
Uh, that's, that's why we, I
believe for long as there's a role
to play in waste, monetization,
whatever the waste stream is.
and you know, you said it right.
Our industry is focused on efficiency
and re retaining or enhancing value
through upcycling of high value
stream side streams, side products.
that that's what our industry has done.
Now We have to participate in the
narrative and in the conversation
around where are we going as industry.
But if we only let this conversation
held by people that think
sustainability switch has, has to
be flipped today, and everything
has to be only green technology,
it's not going to be practical.
These technologies take time to mature,
to prove themselves, prove the economics
and the viability of the technology.
And at the same time, if you
switch off our current industry.
the quality of life as we know it
will disappear overnight, and I don't
think anyone realizes that impact.
So we have to be part
of that conversation.
And at the same time, we have to
roll up our sleeves and look at ways
to improve what you already have.
The existing asset base repurpose
different feedstocks, co
feeding of circular materials.
Yeah.
Makes sense.
Absolutely.
so this is probably a good time to
segue and let's talk about digital
because I think, you know, certainly
digital and digital innovation is where
a lot of the, the opportunity space is.
It's certainly where we are today.
And I just think about how much the world
has changed even in the past two years
when, you know, two years ago I feel
like people didn't know how to spell ai.
Um, and yet here we are today and
it's just part of everyday usage.
What does digital look like for Lummus?
What role does it play in your business?
Well, there's a few different aspects.
You, you and I were at this
massive event, uh, in California
early this year where we.
Combined, our industry technology
companies also Google and the likes
were there, uh, scientists were there,
of course from universities as well.
And, and I think there's a common
realization that AI is going to
find its way into our industry.
There.
There's no doubt, like AI is going
to find its way into anything.
Uh, maybe next talk we have, but we
will have our holograms talking to
each other and we will be enjoying
a cocktail while they do our work.
Who knows?
I'm not sure if I want that, but Okay.
I'm with you.
But, I think we have to assume
it as a fact that AI is going to
find its way into our industry.
And so how is opt to us to define?
So what does is number one.
Already since, uh, three, four years
through our numbers digital company, we
have been helping our customers to combine
digital solutions with process technology.
So the first principles that you and
I grew up with to design the plants
combined with the digital opportunities.
And find ways to enhance value,
less downtime for plans, better
usage of the feedstocks, better
product destinations, and so on.
So that is a efficiency gain that
we see from our customers where
we have implemented digital.
So that is going to keep
growing across the portfolio.
The second, and this, this is the most
promising in my opinion, is all these
plans in operation over many years
generate an enormous amount of data.
That data has not really been used
so far to be a first input in how
should we design the next complex.
It has been used to optimize, of
course, through the operators and,
and on site for the existing plans,
but there have not been used to.
How do we redesign?
I think using AI in the progress of ai, it
enables us to, to look at all the data and
sort through it and make sure that we, can
design the next plans more efficiently,
more reliably, and more sustainably.
So I think that is going to happen and
Lummus is on a mission to create such
a platform, with some big partners.
I think this will change how our
industry is going to look at how should
we be designing because until now
it's been on empirical based formulas,
engineering formulas, and in a weird
way, using ai, it's also based on
empirical, but a much shorter recycle
loop as as opposed to a hundred years.
It's.
Days or real time.
So that's going to really
change our industry.
And then the third last one is how long
works in especially the CapEx cycles,
you know that the building a refinery
or petrochemical side, the chemical
side takes years at least three more
realistically, five to seven years, right?
Right.
And so it, for those investors, it takes.
Anywhere between three, seven
or more years to see the first
return on their investment.
So how can we shorten that cycle?
How can we shorten this beyond
what we have been doing?
And I would argue that we are
already optimized without ai.
So how can we use AI to
optimize and shrink that cycle?
And we believe it should
be cut in half somehow.
So how do we do this?
Well, we will find out, and this is.
The next couple of years how we
are going to generate solutions.
Yeah.
One of the things that I think is, uh,
it's an interesting challenge and you
talk about kind of the data that's used to
improve the processes and how do we take
that data and use it to improve how we
build technologies and, and advance that,
is that information has often been kept,
i'm gonna say held hostage, and that's
not necessarily right the right term,
but it's been held tightly, right?
It's been viewed that that innovation,
that information, the data is
either proprietary or, me having
a little bit different information
than what you have allows me to
be a more effective competitor.
And so I think this whole
aspect of, uh, and AI's.
Kind of forcing it to happen.
We're seeing it happen.
Certainly on a a personal level, when
you think about something like chat,
gt chat, GPT and the large language
models that are so effective, why?
Because so many people are asking
the questions and giving it input.
And so I think there's gonna have to
be a different way of working across
the industry that maybe democratizes
some of the data so that we can
collectively be more effective.
I agree.
It's, it's, it is so much scary if you
are operating in a complex and you, you
don't want your data to be out there
with a direct competitor because it
gives them a competitive advantage.
So I understand that.
But uh, on the other hand, I think
that data is going to enable a lot of
things that these operators can do.
And with that in mind, we, we
closed an acquisition, uh, where
we acquired a digital company.
We closed it, uh, on the
1st of June this year.
We acquired it from
Nested Company, you know.
Well, yeah.
And, we saw the, the strength of
that technology, digital technology
in helping operators with real time
optimization training of the operators.
And right now, partly because
of digitalization, less
and less operators are.
Very experienced to know how to operate
a plant in abnormal situations, right?
So you can do what if scenarios
with a computer behind you instead
of a $1 million plan behind you.
Mm.
Uh, and so this nap com technology was
acquired and our vision is we can scale
that across our 162 technologies such
that we can provide the same solutions
that Netcom had been providing to.
Virtually every customer we have and
use the data that those customers
generate to their own benefits.
And then I think at some point they
also want to know, well, what else
is out there in terms of data similar
to the Solomon uh, assessment, right?
Every company wants to know how
they rank, but they're also careful
how, how to share that information.
Absolutely.
Benchmarking has been so
critical, but it's, it's hard to
do and, and yet we all want it.
Exactly.
So I think AI will drive, like I said,
democratizes data to some extent.
It'll drive it to some commonplace,
it won't be in either of the extremes.
Yeah.
And so this napkin acquisition's gonna
help you in, in delivering some of that
digital solution to your customers?
100%.
Both the new processes we will design,
but also the existing customer base of.
Two and a half thousand or so units out
there that we had licensed in the past.
Wow.
That's a lot of units.
so let's talk about
what's next for Lummus.
You guys are celebrating your five
year anniversary of independence,
of being an independently owned,
what pure play technology company
focusing in and refining in chemicals.
So that's been a big journey.
What do you see happening in the
next two to five years for Lummus?
Yeah, so we, we will celebrate this
and one, one of my mantras is we
have to celebrate more 'cause we
are in such a high pace mode that
we sometimes forget to pause and
en enjoy and celebrate what we have
accomplished 'cause we are accomplish.
July is our 50th anniversary.
First of all, I'm very proud to say that
we located the very first patents that
Walter e Lummus filed 110 years ago.
That's impressive.
Yeah, so the actual physical
patents that he filed.
So I'm very proud of that and we
are celebrating that on our day one.
Uh, second, we take time across our globe.
What we have accomplished in the last
few years, we have close 20 offices
around, double from where we started.
So it's a fast.
Of course, but it's also good to realize,
okay, anchor on where we are now because
we're going to continue this growth
and we want to realize what has made
us so successful and is that going to
make us successful as we go forward.
And there's some things that I think
would be answered with yes, but some.
We may have to change, first of all,
the passion and innovation drive is
obviously a key ingredients to our future.
And so the, the people that make
our success are the 1100 employees
around the globe and their passion and
their new ideas and the innovation.
Second, the r and d.
Focus and the commercialization
focus, like you said, you don't
just want to come up with the ideas,
you want to see that implement.
Right.
So that is a second ingredient
that I think will always be there.
And then the third is
focus on people talent.
Our industry has gone through a lot
of change and so with, and we have to.
Find and retain the talent that's
going to keep our momentum.
Uh, and so there's a, a lot of
focus on talent has been the last
five years and continue to be, and
then some things that are changing.
We talked about ai,
uh, and digitalization.
I still struggle to pronounce
digitalization, so I'm thankful for ai.
It's easier to pronounce, it's a whole
lot easier, but clearly the next two,
three years, there's going to be.
Tremendous changes in our industry
and in Lummus how AI is capitalized.
We talked about it, so I don't
want to dwell on it, but I don't
think we've seen any, anything
beyond the tip of the iceberg yet.
And time will tell.
Time will tell, how this will contribute.
And what are some of the downsides of ai?
That also leads to a second change.
How we have been doing our work, how we've
designed new plans is going to change.
Now we can, you know, when, when we would
design a distillation tower, we would take
one two weeks to do all the iterations
and the optimization and you know, we have
expert way in and that customer way in so
that we know that that distillation tower
is optimized for its use and for its cost
and therefore return on that investment.
I think with AI it could be.
Within a day, maybe within an
hour, maybe within a few minutes.
and that permits us to then say,
okay, is this really the best?
So instead of taking the outcome after
what we used to do in one or two weeks
for granted, because nobody wants to delay
a project by another month or so, now
we are able to have the luxury to say,
okay, we worked on this for one hour.
Here's the outcome.
Let's think about this.
Should we do it differently?
And let's run it one more
time or two more times.
So that actually leads to better
capital efficiency, in my opinion.
our design cycles are going to be
shortened where a lot of the routine
work will be done by AI agents.
And that leads to a, a
realization the checkpoints
that we have in project, right?
The hazards.
The hazards, the all the things.
Yeah.
The.
We now have to rethink this with AI in
mind because as much as AI can contribute,
you cannot permit to have hallucination to
other unintended routes that AI takes us
influence the design in a, in a bad way.
'cause our industry is, you
know, has to be safe industry.
So I think also how we think about it.
Execution of projects with customers,
with partners, it'll fundamentally change.
I don't know yet how Victoria Yeah.
But I can see there's this
need to, to rethink this.
Yeah.
It strikes me that there's, and, and I've
spent a, a chunk of my time, during my
corporate life at, at she in particular
doing process improvement and really
looking at business processes, both as
digital came in and through other things.
And it's this whole way
of working and how we.
Uh, what we expect from people, what we
expect from our processes, because if
you can get an answer in one day, great.
On this distillation tower, for instance,
that example, and yet is the rest of
the process ready for that answer?
I.
Yeah, so that you can keep it moving.
So figuring out how, what the new way of
designing a plan, of working together with
partners, et cetera, is, um, gonna be,
I guess, an opportunity for all of us.
But it's, it is exciting.
This, this is why engineers
study engineering to make
things better, to improve.
Uh, so I think it's exciting that we are.
Looking at this task and I'm sure we'll
solve it and I'll also sure it go and
be painless, but it will be rewarding.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Well, and that's a great way to end.
So Leon, thank you so much.
I've really enjoyed our conversation
and providing an update of Lummus
to our guests of the Chemical Show.
So, and congratulations on five years.
So thanks for joining.
Thank you.
Thank you, Victoria.
Always a pleasure to be with you.
Absolutely.
And thank you everyone
for joining us today.
Keep listening, keep following,
keep sharing, and we will
talk with you again soon.