Rivals is HEALING, Pokeslop is BROKEN and NERF More Heroes ft Fauwkz & ShibbyMR

In this POD episode we sit down with caster Shibby and pro coach Fauwkz to talk about the state of Marvel Rivals in patch 8.5

What is Clear Comms Podcast?

A Marvel Rivals Podcast hosted by Coach Mills and CaptainCoach, two creator and educators for Marvel Rivals. We discuss all things Rivals including META, balance and the future of development. We will often debate controversial topics that surround the game and plan to bring on many exciting guests from pros to devs!!!

Coach Mills (00:00.584)
What's up guys and welcome to a brand new clear Okay, I gotta redo the intro. That's the first time I messed up the intro. Literally the first I I I typically do okay. All right. I am nervous. I I I got I got the I got two two sick guests in the house. All right. What's up, guys, and welcome to a brand new ClearComps episode. Today we're joined by two special guests. First off, caster, content creator, hot take extraordinaire. We have Shibby MR. What's up, man? How you doing?

CaptainCoach (00:04.526)
First time for everything.

Fauwkz (00:08.921)
He's nervous.

ShibbyMR (00:27.028)
That's a perfect intro, right? I do a lot of different things. A lot of different stuff has gotten me into trouble online. And I think that's that's kind of how I like it, right? That's that that's the best part about, you know, making content like that is the hot takes, the the comments and everything like that.

Coach Mills (00:41.172)
Yeah, I feel so disconnected from the community sometimes. And then I I stumble upon your content and it kinda it grounds me. It makes me understand what's going on. Cause I have no idea sometimes what's going on. and then sometimes like I feel like I miss one well one weekend of of a like a pro tournament and like I don't know what the heck happened. And I'm like, okay, I need to know. And and Shibi got me covered. and also we're joined by a very requested guest.

ShibbyMR (01:00.58)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:08.244)
Coach for Swamp Gaming who is dominating right now. I believe y'all are five and right. rolling through the competition. Nice. Let let's go. unlike Lick unlike Liquid, w well w w Fox, what's up?

Fauwkz (01:13.027)
Yeah yeah. Yeah, zero maps lost. In the hard group, unlike liquid. Cakewalk for them. Cakewalk for them. No good teams over there. Bro, I mean what what do you mean, bro? The best team they had to beat was SSG and they didn't even qualify.

CaptainCoach (01:21.742)
I was ready to start talking shit like right off the bat. I love it. This is

Coach Mills (01:29.3)
damn. Nice. Well, you've been heavily requested. How how have you been, man? How how's things been going?

CaptainCoach (01:30.094)
It's gonna be a good episode, Coach Mills.

Fauwkz (01:36.077)
I'm good, man. I'm good, you know?

We're excited. New patch is fun. New patches are always fun. They're all it's a good patch, for us. Having a good time, man. Can't complain.

Coach Mills (01:48.307)
Nice. Nice. Okay, okay. Well up so about that patch, I I'm gonna ask you first, Fox. it's Fox, right? Is am I saying it right? Yeah Fox. Fox, Fox. Okay, gotcha, gotcha. so we got a pr we got a pretty somewhat controversial patch. You know, there was some there was some dino nerfs in there, there was some black cat getting gutted nerfs in there, some daredevil nerfs, s some gambit nerfs. What do you think about

CaptainCoach (01:50.536)
yeah.

Fauwkz (01:56.941)
Yeah, fox, fox, yeah, like the animal.

Coach Mills (02:16.286)
First, like I I kinda I'm gonna ask you both. One about the just the rank perspective and then also about the pro perspective. How do you feel like this patch actually changed things? Did it change things? What what do what do you feel about this patch overall?

Fauwkz (02:30.031)
well the main thing is it just slowed it down, right? Like the game's gonna be a lot slower, right? They they they executed Black Cat. I've never seen them do that to a character before, like as quick as they did. So yeah, I guess then the comedian really hated her. But yeah, so th they killed her, they hurt Daredevil, right? And so Dive is so much weaker now. at least in high Elo, right? Like in your in your plat diamond GM games, they're probably still gonna play be playing like Magic and Iron Fist and running it down on you, but like

Coach Mills (02:39.228)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (02:59.713)
At the high high elo where where it was just black cat, Star Lord Psylock stuff, it's gonna be a lot slower, so you'll see a lot more Groot, you'll see a lot more Hulk, you'll see a lot more triple support, you'll see a lot more wolves, right? 'Cause the team up and and then obviously the Cyclops, right? And and so that that that does like a bunch of things, right? Like because it's slower, that makes a character that was stronger last patch statistically, like Gambit, even stronger this patch, because the only way to actually hurt Gambit is dive him.

But because you can't dive him now, cause dive's just weaker, Gambit's even more strong on this patch, even though he's a little weaker. So it's like it has like a big, big trickle down effect. Mm.

Coach Mills (03:37.672)
Hm, that's interesting.

CaptainCoach (03:39.554)
Yeah. I I have a question about that. Would would you say heroes then would just better ultimates in general are just tend to be better in a slower meta like this? Yeah. Right.

Fauwkz (03:48.193)
Yeah. yeah. It's super alt heavy, right? It's it's super alt heavy 'cause it's it it's a lot less about space and execution of the dive and it's a lot more like three, two, one, can we get a good turn on you? And then, you know, both teams have i if you have equally skilled teams and you're you're gonna see that a lot at tier one, then it's gonna come down to alt usage and how how excellent you guys can use your alts, right? And so that's where you see Groot power spike and you see characters like like Wolverine.

get a lot better and low key get a lot better because you can nullify things with just a cooldown, right? And so and even Sue, right? And so you you get characters that have a lot more alt denial with just cooldowns or just strong alts in general that can kill through support alts and things like that become a lot lot more valuable, right? So yeah.

Coach Mills (04:35.356)
One thing I wanna go on, go on. w well I wanted so you say so dive is obviously gonna be weaker, but you being swamp gaming is like y'all do a lot of dive. Like y'all are pretty dive centric, right? Like y'all dive a lot. and and we we just we just had trust me on that what he was talking about is that the best teams play dive. Like you get you get a positional advantage at all times, a decision decision advantage at all times 'cause you just get to

CaptainCoach (04:35.393)
it No, go ahead, go ahead.

Coach Mills (05:04.134)
Engage on your terms, you get to leave on your terms. So even in spite of all these changes and and nerfs to dive, is dive just still gonna like the best thing to do going forward in pro play, or do you think it's more there's there's other things that are reasonable even for the best of the best teams now?

Fauwkz (05:18.209)
If you can get the premier dive comp, like the six characters you need, yeah, it'll probably be best in slot. The likelihood of you getting that is low. So if if one thing gets banned out, like Luna gets taken out back, Daredevil gets taken out back, it's almost unplayable. So, so like dive is still strong, but the characters and the the the the the the reason dive was so powerful last patch is because you couldn't get rid of it. If you ban the Daredevil, I've got the black cat.

Coach Mills (05:34.91)
Mm, gotcha.

Fauwkz (05:48.376)
If you ban the st Star Lord, I have Phoenix or Psylock. If you ban the Cap, I've got Venom. If you ban the Venom, I Cap. If you ban the the Luna, I've got Rocket. If like there's so many things you couldn't really ban it out. The most effective way is what you kind of saw teams and us doing at the end, was the double DD black cap ban in the second phase to to really weaken it to try and force them off that. and that's what you would have to do into really good dive teams.

in order to make sure that they didn't play dive and played a different style. But on this patch you only need to commit one ban to it. And and it really doesn't matter what type of ban it is. So you can do it in the very, very in the very, very last phase of the game, right? So you can get it fourth instead of having to do it in the second phase. So yeah, so you you you probably won't see a lot of dive. Again, we were we're probably the top dive team in America's Us and Liquid and Navi in in EMEA. But with how slow the game is

right now, with triple support being really, really strong, you'll probably see a lot less, barely any probably, when the tournament comes around, unless you can really secure those six characters a and it kind of just like sneaks on through.

Coach Mills (06:54.738)
I I I I'm gonna ask you some triple triple support questions a little bit later. I did see some of your rants about triple support and like ways they could solve it. I don't want to go down that tangent yet before we get Shibby's thoughts on the patch, but just just remember I will ask you about that. So Shibby, what do you think? What do you think about this patch as a whole? you can talk about it for pro play and ranked play alike. How do you how do you feel about the current state of the game?

Fauwkz (07:01.775)
Yeah.

ShibbyMR (07:18.043)
Yeah, I think this patch has adversely affected tanks, right? Like if you're in a dive meta like last patch or the past couple of patches, supports were the ones that were under pressure, under duress. Like it's almost impossible to try and live against like a cap venom Daredevil dive, right? Because of how sticky Daredevil is when he dives and how long he can stay on top of you with Captain America. Like you're you're kind of just trading back lines and the team that trades the back line the best.

wins the fight. Whereas now when we get into what is like a slower meta that Fox pointed out, where you have stuff like Cyclops, you have more like Wolverine coming in, you have these kinds of heroes that can just front load damage down main or front load damage into your tanks. As a Vanguard player, I know you guys wanted more supports. I play both roles, but as a Vanguard player, it feels like the the pace of the game has changed with 8.5. And adversely

Now that now the tanks are under duress because you're gonna have to play stuff like Groot, you're gonna have to play stuff Hulk is gonna come back because you need to contest side lanes, because you need to connect contest like DPS that are on side angles or off angles, you need to contest lanes again. There's all this different stuff that you have to do. So, like your role as a vanguard is five times more important. Therefore, when you die as a vanguard now in 8.5, at least from what I've been playing and and what I've been seeing,

it's it's like that much more damaging, right? Because like if you died like a Captain America, if you died on a Venom, your team could real li reliably, realistically kite back, wait for you to get your rollout going, come back onto the point and re-engage the fight within like a 10 to 15 second timeframe. Now if you die on like some of these more like anchor tanks we can call them or main tanks, whatever you want call them, you're you lose like 30 seconds of time, which is very valuable in this game.

CaptainCoach (09:11.414)
That's interesting. One of the biggest things I've noticed as a tank player for this patch in particular is a couple like matchups. Like obviously like Dino got nerfed, so his run win rate's gone down, which I'll get to you both about Dino. But a character like thing and Hulk, you know, we've been throwing those like Hulk around a little bit. Our characters you would think statistically are actually pretty good into dive, but have surprisingly

the lower win rates apart from like a couple matchups, like thing is I think his worst matchup against DPS for like win rate wise is actually Daredevil. And that actually is the case for a lot of tanks just because he was so strong. So my kind of question to you is what do you attribute the rise of what why is why does poke necessarily just slow the game down? Is it more just because triple is now like more uncontested?

Or is it because 'cause I always thought like when a poke when poke is meta, which it seems like it kinda is right now, that it's all about just bursting the target out and getting a quick that quick insta kill. And so is it is it slower just because of the types of heroes that are being picked, or more towards because like certain types of tanks now are are like better at keeping people alive? Like what would you attribute the pacing of to? Is it just the dive?

Or is it the fact that like you like like triple now like I I feel like is just so good right now and and it's just uncontested in e every game. If you go to triple it I don't see really an answer to it.

ShibbyMR (10:44.829)
So I I'll I'll go here. I think the pacing of hero shooters, just in general, but the pacing of the game is determined by what your vanguards are. So if you look at what tools are available to deal with poke, most of the time, like ninety-nine percent of ranked play, I would say bronze to like even like Celestial 2, Celestial Three. If you're in a poke meta, your team's gonna request you to play some fucking bunk ass shield tank or some shit like that. Your

Tools to deal with poke are slower because, like, realistically, you have a shield, you have a bubble if you're playing something like Mag, you have walls if you're playing Groot. you like you can maybe jump up in the air as Doctor Strange and like contest a Hella, a Phoenix, or whatever the the hit scan of the the the day is. You're so your tools are slower to deal with poke, at least from a pacing aspect. Whereas if you're playing like a venom, you're playing like a Captain America, you're playing something that can dive or has a lot of mobility, I would say Hulk in that aspect as well.

your ability to like Fox said, stage dives or setup or like three, two, one, go, like that pacing is so much faster. So that's why the meta feels faster. Whereas like now when we're back into poke meta, things are just gonna move slowly because your vanguards unfortunately don't have the tools to move as fast. That's that's how I would categorize it. I don't know, Fox maybe have a different angle.

CaptainCoach (11:54.21)
Yes.

Fauwkz (12:06.149)
yeah, I mean th the the the characters are just slower, right? You remove dive from the game, there's a lot less mobility, right? And so when mobility gets in, right, a dive is all just about timing, right? How fast my cap and venom can just get on your back line with a Daredevil, with a Star Lord, with a Psylock, with a Phoenix stun, right, with a Lunaclap, right? And and the goal is to burst it, right? And that's why triple support wasn't as strong as Dive Last Patches, because we had so many characters that were it's specifically Black Cat as well, that were just really good at just nuking you even through the sustain.

ShibbyMR (12:09.416)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (12:35.793)
but when you r remove the the hypermobility from the game and and you reduce Daredevil's ability to engage from range and you just kill Black Cat, right? Then you've got just slower moving characters, and so like kind of what Shibby said, right, it takes a longer time to come back, right, when you're killed, and so it's just gonna be a naturally slower gameplay cycle. But

But yeah, so it it's just kind of slower moving characters, right? There's there's less mobility being played around. Even a character like Cyclops, even though he has got a lot of mobility, right? He's just slower than Daredevil, right? Daredevil's got 20 dashes. So so that that's why the game's kind of just slower. And then because dive is less prevalent, triple support might not be the most optimal comp, but it's gonna be an easier comp to win more consistently, for maybe pros or or highly low ranked.

Coach Mills (13:15.954)
Right.

Fauwkz (13:30.527)
And and so when you have three supports, it's just a sustain war, right? And so you're waiting for somebody to entry kill or you're waiting to encroach so much on their space that that somebody eventually dies because of their lack of space. but that's not really gonna happen quickly, right? That's gonna be a slow, we're slowly fighting for this angle, right? And and the only way it's fast is if, you know, you get two tapped and then you slowball from there, right? So

CaptainCoach (13:47.404)
Yeah. Okay.

CaptainCoach (13:55.576)
Yeah, so we kinda got to where I wanted to next, which is okay, sustain war. Is that a good meta to be in? Is that interesting to watch for pro play?

Fauwkz (14:01.379)
Hell no. Hell no. No, no. Everybody hates it, right? Like that's what that's what that's what Overwatch 1 GOATs was. It was just you can't kill us. We're gonna sit on the objective. We're gonna build six alts. You're build six alts. We're gonna dump six alts. You're gonna dump six alts. Whoever has the best alts wins. That's a boring way to play. The reason why dive is fun and and fun for viewers to watch is because we would go control rounds or domination rounds. The first round of domination, no ults would even get online.

Coach Mills (14:02.426)
Yeah.

ShibbyMR (14:04.624)
No it's

Fauwkz (14:31.831)
Right? We would kill you so fast and then so fast again and so fast again. Three fights, games over. First round of domination, nobody gets their alts. We would get our alts probably that third fight, right? But in slower metas, you're gonna have each player gets maybe two alt cycles because the fights are gonna take so much longer. And so less things are gonna die. So it's less interesting. We won't we wanna see things explode, pop, high mobility. It's way, way more fun, right? Triple support is

Like I'm a triple support hater, but it's just boring. People don't like playing it, people don't like watching it, right? Sustain is not a exciting way to play. I would much rather, even if we were in a Pokemon, be seeing like Helen Amor than Ultron with a Cyclops, right? Because it's just you'll see more things die. And seeing things die is what people are are there to watch and there to do, right? You want to kill things on Hella. I don't want to shoot a tank 20,000 times and then have them just get ulted.

Coach Mills (15:26.356)
What it?

CaptainCoach (15:26.414)
I can tell you're not support player. I can tell you're not a support player. Actually would it would it true what of your support? So would it

Coach Mills (15:29.652)
Hell whoa, no wait wait wait wait wait, are you? Are you are? Are you a support?

Fauwkz (15:30.177)
I am a support player. No, but I am. I I play support and tank. I play support and tank. My most hours is low-key.

ShibbyMR (15:32.925)
No Fox is, Fox is. Yep. Yep.

CaptainCoach (15:35.682)
I was gonna say, would a true support player want a sustained meta or like a meta where they're fighting?

Coach Mills (15:38.515)
Da.

Fauwkz (15:41.529)
Bro, I wanna kill things, man. I wanna pump out a ton of damage on Loki and Luna and kill things. Right? But it's like how am I supposed to kill the Ultron when he's, you know, got two supports pocketing him?

Coach Mills (15:48.233)
Yeah, of course. Flying. So okay, so I guess this leads in or I guess we kinda st you know, fell into this this topic. So it feels like the only time that we haven't had a triple support meta, or like it maybe it's not the entire meta, but like a part of it, is by accident, at least. It feels like we're just accidentally not in the support triple support meta, but they're not intentionally killing it. It's just

hey, dive's really good. Okay, now it's not. Okay, it's triple support again. So what is the actual solutions here so we don't keep falling back into hey, we're in a triple support meta again for like the I don't know, fucking eighth time. What what what do you what do you think? What's the what's the actual solutions here?

ShibbyMR (16:28.829)
Do you want a quick one or do you want like, hey, what they can fundamentally restructure over the course like like do you want the band aid or do you want the surgery, right? Like that's

Coach Mills (16:32.468)
Well, I mean I mean I I mean are we d we we I I I want both, but like we also need to understand like is it reasonable for them to do what what we're suggesting too, is is another thing.

CaptainCoach (16:32.96)
Hey, we're on a podcast, baby.

CaptainCoach (16:45.366)
I want a full blown manifesto start to finish.

Coach Mills (16:48.212)
Delete mantis? I gotcha. Let's fucking go. Okay.

ShibbyMR (16:53.235)
So I yeah, I mean I I'll just take a stab and then you know you can come in, finish the surgery up maybe a bit. I don't know. But I think so there are there are ways to make and this might be optic, there are ways to make triple support interesting, right? And it's not the sustained version, it's the one where you create supports that are more offensive minded that don't provide like sustainabilities, that don't provide these kinds of crazy.

Fauwkz (16:53.334)
Should we do you want to go or

ShibbyMR (17:21.457)
sustain bonuses, right? Like a triple support meta where one of the supports, let's say for example, right? Let's say Luna doesn't have the insane healing clap or anything like that, but she still has all that damage. She has a little bit of utility and she's got a little bit of healing. When you have that kind of support and she maybe she doesn't have her ultimate, who's more offensive minded and you can run this triple support comp where it's like a hybrid of DPS and support, that's where you can make it interesting. But the triple support we see

That Fox is probably used to is like Ultron, that's Luna Flake, that's poking you, that has the drone on a tank, that has another drone on their flavor of the month, DPS, whether it's Elsa, Cyclops, Phoenix, whatever. That shit is boring to watch. Like that shit is fundamentally the most boring thing to watch ever. But when you have a better hybrid system of supports that will meaningfully trade cooldowns that will meaningfully go in and say, hey,

I'm gonna get in a more offensive range so that I can get more value out of my hero so that then I'm rewarded to like throw heals onto somebody. I think Mantis, if Mantis didn't have her ultimate and she had something else completely that wasn't sustained, I think it'd be a way cooler trade-off because Mantis has to trade headshots for leaves, leaves heal or damage boost, however you wanna say it. And then she has like an ultimate that maybe just gives move speed. I think that's fundamentally way more interesting.

Of a triple support comp because then you see stuff dying more often, which is goes to Fox's point. That's way cooler because now you can see the difference, the skill ceiling between what a good mantis is versus what a bad mantis is, right? The guys that are getting like 50, 60% accuracy on crits versus the ones that are just standing back and shooting body shots and not getting as much leaf value. Yeah, go for it, Coach.

CaptainCoach (19:05.248)
I d I just had a question about that. I I I I think I agree with most of what you're saying, but my counter argument to that argument that's supposed to be more aggressive and offensive is White Fox, a hero that, while most people already considered her S tier, received yet another buff, and then they kind of reworked her numbers a little bit and basically just gave her more healing in in like the neutral as a range hero. And and we're still finding she's just unable to compete in a ranked environment, despite most people knowing and feeling in their heart of hearts that she's

Truly a broken hero. And it's because she just doesn't have the same level of sustain at at a level of safety that most people want. So what needs to be done to make a character like White Fox, who by all like numbers is pretty like overtuned, I would say, be able to compete with this these high sustain healing down strokes? Do we just nerf the healing or you don't think it's okay.

Fauwkz (19:54.263)
I I actually don't think that's what it is. I just think her No, I just think her ult's so bad. I think her ult's so bad and when you when you slow the game down, you put her in a poke meta, her ult evaporates like that, right? Her ult's dead in a half a second to Rocket Alt. Her ult's dead to Punisher, her ult's dead to Bucky. Every DPS in the game nukes her ult instantly, right? And so a big proponent that Pro Teams try do is kill through support ults. Well, White Fox's ult kills itself by existing, right? And so everything in the game just removes her ult. Her sustain is very good.

CaptainCoach (19:59.959)
Okay.

Fauwkz (20:23.811)
Because she is applying pressure to you. Right? She's applying pressure to you from off angles with a hit scan or with a DPS like Daredevil, right? And so you don't get to deal as much damage to my core, to my Magneto, because you're busy worrying about my Cyclops who's pocketed by me on the off angle. And if you pressure me too much, I go back to my team. So her sustain is top, is like top, top tier. But you get into that alt trade, she's losing every time. So it it's about her alt.

CaptainCoach (20:44.728)
Do you so do you think do you like having a disparity between alts and having like dimpa different tempos, like Deadpool having like a week or all or whatever, but like you can get it sooner and yeah.

Fauwkz (20:53.711)
yeah, yeah. I I think I think her ult I think like her ult is bad for this meta, but it's good in other metas, right? When you're getting dive, like in dive meta, her ult is really, really good, right? But when you slow the game down and you add these high, high damage characters like Punisher, Cyclops, Elsa, right? Her ult doesn't exist. And so that's why and she's kind of fundamentally an anti-dive character in a way, or a a dive enabler.

And so when you remove dive and dive gets taken out back like it just was, you're gonna see White Fox take a step back. But that's not because of her lack of sustain. That's just because fundamentally what she does is not strong right now because the DPS and the tanks, mainly the DPS, aren't s powerful enough to enable it.

CaptainCoach (21:36.086)
All right. So I I know we're getting a little off track and Shippia we'll come back to you, but as a tank player, I was under the impression that I am almost unable to function with white foxes in in like a ranked environment. I'm celestial too right now. just because they don't have enough healing. How do I get more value as like a Hulk or tank player playing with white foxes? Because I never feel like I'm able to function when they are in the game. Is it them or do I need to communicate? Okay.

ShibbyMR (21:58.361)
Shit.

Fauwkz (22:00.193)
Ye y it's them, right? Because they're they're playing White Fox like they're trying to play Sue Storm, right? If they sit main and heal you, they're gonna do way less than Sue or Luna or Cloak, right? They it just doesn't heal as much. The power of White Fox comes in the ability to play in two different lanes at the same time, right? Exist in two areas at the same time. So Yeah, 100%. yeah, let's let's let's get another support strike going, get another one.

CaptainCoach (22:22.21)
So what you're saying is I need yell at them.

Coach Mills (22:24.276)
Let's go.

ShibbyMR (22:24.519)
Yeah. Yeah. Micro them. micro them. Like straight up micro.

Fauwkz (22:30.103)
Right? No, no, yeah, because it's like i i if if white fox like again, if you space the map out and there's three angles that the team needs to shoot or two, then there's less pressure coming down main. But if you're playing a group comp and your white fox is just sitting with your low-key, you're not gonna get healed as much. But if she's off angling with your Phoenix, then you're taking less damage because they have to pay attention to your Phoenix and your Phoenix is superpowered because she's not gonna die with the White Fox pocketing her. And then she's charming the back line and that adds more pressure and things like that. So

CaptainCoach (22:31.564)
I might need to learn her to be honest.

Fauwkz (22:58.263)
Ranked players just aren't playing her properly, right? or they're picking her in just bad situations, right?

CaptainCoach (23:04.216)
So that's that's great. And so my next where I want to go from that is okay, so now we have these characters that can function by just doing basically like the whatever the same thing, just shooting down main choke primary and get so much value from that. Do we bring up certain heroes to match? Or is that like why we're in triple support to begin with, to bring it all back to kind of cause like people have characters that ca can play aggressive and then choose not to do it or are are unable to, right?

Fauwkz (23:33.473)
No, I think the only reason we're kind of leaning towards triple support is the best offensive ults right now are support alts. Right? Like like the the thing is is is Rocket Alt's the best damage alt in the game. Every every time I ult, I'm in sta killing two people, right? Like and but then you have ranked players who are like Rocket's so bad, his alt gets destroyed in two seconds. I only need it alive for two seconds.

CaptainCoach (23:39.362)
Okay.

Fauwkz (23:57.089)
I rock it all cyclops alt, your go your team's been airstrike. Goodbye, right? I rock it all with a Venom alt, your inst your back line's cut. I don't need it alive for more than two seconds. So it the damage boost, which by the way, I really like the damage boost. Okay. I I liked OG Rock Adult, where it was just the 40% boost, no healing, no overshields, just but but it had its niche, right? It was really good back in the day with bucky combos.

CaptainCoach (23:58.744)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (24:14.322)
Good old days.

CaptainCoach (24:15.369)
I love that.

ShibbyMR (24:15.763)
Mm-hmm.

Fauwkz (24:24.023)
You would one tap with the Bucky combo with 20%, which he has back, right? And things like that. And then on the other side, who what other what other support has the a really good offensive alt? Well, Mantis just speeds her entire team at you. Right? So it's like you have these support alts that really function to just win team fights offensively, right? Where you can't do that on Sue and Luna to an extent. If you do that on Sue, I can groot grab you out of it, right? If you do that on Luna.

I get a back away because your team isn't moving any faster, right? If you do that on a cloak, it kind of is a little bit effective, right? But they've nerfed nerfed cloak alt so much that it's really easy for pro teams to kill, or high elo players to kill, right? And so these support alts are are really, really strong offensively. And then Mantis is just designed in a way where she wants to hyper enable a DPS. And when you're playing triple support, fundamentally you need to turn that solar singular DPS character.

Into a raid boss. And w Mantis and Ultron do that to an extreme extent. He has a drone, he has a snowflake, he has damage boost, which now also gives him speed boost. So there's just too much power into that singular DPS where you don't even need the second DPS because he's playing for two, right? And then Mantis and Ultron do a ton of damage as well, right? And so the characters are fundamentally built to enable triple support. And so you would either have to rework

The alts like Rocket and Mantis Alt, right? Which is, I don't think, the way you'd want to go unless you just want to take away the healing from Rocket Alt. Or you would just change what Mantis does, right? Like I I I've I've got reworks in mind or what they could do to Mantis to to move her away from being such a triple support character and being more into a two two two environment. But then you could also drop like the roll passives that I've come up with where it's like two or more, ten percent longer for every support.

Coach Mills (26:15.132)
One thing I kind of wanted to ask you, playing off of that, is you so you said like White Fox is gonna take a backseat, right? Going into this meta as is, just because of the way that damage is being dealt from range. We're not as much in the dive meta. So how much do you feel like strategies like centered around like Mantis and Ultron enabling a DPS that is acceptable as part of the cycle of like when we're in a dive meta, those strategies are not as strong. But when we're not, those strategies become good.

Fauwkz (26:27.513)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (26:44.178)
Like do we need to change them entirely to remove them? Or is it just like a type of strategy that you think is fine in the game, just not too much? Like it's it's fine at times, but it's not like it shouldn't be meta for a very long period of time.

Fauwkz (26:56.755)
Yeah, I mean th the thing is it triple support is never like it might be right now, but it never truly is meta because it's the the reason you see pro teams or ranked players opt into triple support is because it's the easiest way to get consistent value. And what pro teams go for and what you saw on the Dino patch was everybody opted into Dino because it's consistent, easy value. It's a brand new patch, you don't really know what's strong.

So you're gonna go with the simplest, easiest thing that you know you're gonna get value out of, which is going to be sustain and just inherent value, which what Dino got from existing, right? And so triple support might not even be meta right now, but early in patches, you're always gonna see teams rely on triple support until they figure out what can beat it, right? Which typically there is a 2 2 2 comp that can beat it. Like if you play triple support Groot versus 2 2 2 Groot Wolf Cyclops, I'm probably winning.

Because I'm just gonna kill your Groot all the time, right? but you know, if you get it Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (28:00.517)
Do you think that that is always gonna happen? Like unless you completely cut unless you c so there is is is that the thing that you have the problem with is that like kind of like almost using it as a crutch is what's cap but it keeps happening, yeah.

Fauwkz (28:10.849)
Yeah, because it's because the patch cycles are so fresh and so consistent, like month by month, right? That for the first two weeks of every single patch, pro teams will rely on triple support. And that's why you see teams like Sen and FlyQuest make that their entire identity, is because it's gonna be consistent, right? Now it might not be optimal, which is why you don't see teams like Navi and Ur crutch it, but you can get really far just spamming triple support. When you watch T2.

MRC, the best teams are all triple support teams because the the teams in there don't have the skill capacity to beat it, right?

CaptainCoach (28:47.608)
So i it's a is it a more of a player issue or or this the ceiling of the actual support heroes? Combination of both? Both?

Coach Mills (28:53.67)
Or or a w

Fauwkz (28:55.767)
It's kinda both. It's kinda both, right? Cause in in tier in tier two in MRC, the top tier two teams are almost all gonna be triple support teams, cause the player's skill requirement to beat that is too high. But you have that in tier one. You have a high enough t skill tier in tier one to beat it.

ShibbyMR (28:57.66)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (29:06.846)
Well one of the things

CaptainCoach (29:09.87)
And that's in the pro scene.

Coach Mills (29:10.544)
It it's is the is it the skill of the player wait, okay. How much do you attribute it to the skill and how much do you attribute it to people like you coaching and analysts finding the metas it it's just talent?

Fauwkz (29:19.265)
It's all talent, guys. Like I like coach coaches can do a little, but it's all about the talent, right? It like I can I can make my talent meet their requ meet their standards, but I can't

Coach Mills (29:24.946)
Of the player, gotcha.

Coach Mills (29:29.906)
Well what what pool but what pool of players are we even talking about here that's capable of playing

Fauwkz (29:34.295)
I'm talking about like the top four teams in both regions, MR Americas and EMEA.

Coach Mills (29:37.448)
So it's like So it's only it's but a y so we're we're effectively only talking about like like twenty we're talking about like twenty two people though. Like my problem is we're talk we're talking about like tw like like genero we're talking about generously thirty people that can beat it.

CaptainCoach (29:40.77)
So like eight people in the world can eight people in the world can be triple support. Nice.

Fauwkz (29:42.159)
So like so like eight teams in the so eight teams in the world. Yeah.

ShibbyMR (29:44.657)
It's like forty eight players? Like in just me

Fauwkz (29:48.898)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, basically. Yeah. I mean that's the that's the that's the reality. That's how but that's how consistently strong it is though, right? Like it's it's so easy to default into sustain because it's consistent and it's hard to beat.

ShibbyMR (29:52.465)
Well, I mean yeah, but also like

Coach Mills (29:53.842)
I mean they're like well then it it doesn't though

y yeah.

Coach Mills (30:03.54)
But like that is okay, so but here's the thing is it's like I I I guess we kind of f because I w I mean we agree with we pr we agree with you about triple support, but we kind of come into this full thing as was with your response to it is like it's actually not the meta, just be better. It's like, you have to be this good to be better, but like and it's like it's like no one's gonna be that good to be better. Like it's just it's just

Fauwkz (30:22.475)
No yeah, okay, yeah. That's true. No, I know I

ShibbyMR (30:23.655)
What n time out

CaptainCoach (30:25.355)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (30:27.632)
It's just the meta, basically. It's just the meta. For like everyone that's human, it's the meta. Okay, like like what are we talking about? Like

Fauwkz (30:29.773)
Well no. But but but okay, it it no it it it is it isn't the meta. The issue is though, is there's not a long enough time for teams to actually get good enough at that. So there are enough teams that could get good enough hypothetically to beat Triple Sport. There's way more than just eight, right? But in a but in a month, there's like eight teams. Yeah, I was an over yeah, I came from Overwatch.

Coach Mills (30:48.148)
'Cause did did you You came from Overwatch, right?

'Cause you came from Overwatch, right? Is that where you got your start? Yeah, yeah, 'cause yeah, I mean like in Overwatch, like it like we were in like what, three years of just dive where they just practiced like basically almost the same comp, like all the time, nonstop, and it's like it's like, but like I but like and it took forever for people to adapt to anything new. Like it it always did, and like I always thought that was a unique part about rivals is where like exactly what you're saying is that the meta moves just so quickly, so fast, that it's like it's actually hard to keep up. Like

Fauwkz (31:04.633)
Fire.

ShibbyMR (31:06.297)
Ha ha Genji Tracer Winston Diva.

Coach Mills (31:23.848)
I guess that that leads me to another question. Do you think that the game would benefit from slower patch cycles? Do you think that that would no. Okay. What what what's your what's your thing?

Fauwkz (31:30.337)
No. No, the the the the fast patch cycles are a good thing, but if they just reworked Mantis entirely, we wouldn't have this issue. This character will be the triple support enabler as long as she exists with damage and speed and a speed boost ultimate and good damage. Right? And the way she operates, she doesn't have any ability to live on her own. So she needs the sustain around her.

ShibbyMR (31:31.261)
No.

Coach Mills (31:41.396)
Mm.

Fauwkz (31:59.619)
To be able to pa to to keep her alive, right? And so if you want to change triple support and make it so it's not the default, right? Because triple support will still be viable, we'll still r accidentally walk into things like you said, Mills. but whereas triple support could potentially be strong. Because I actually don't think triple support being unplayable is good for the game. There should be an avenue to play triple support if you like that kind of playstyle and you want your identity to be that. But if you just rework Mantis.

Right? And change this character to be more 222 optimal and less pocket singular DPS and make that character Thanos, then we're not gonna be in that, right? Because it's like if you only have your one cycle of damage boost from an Ultron amp, you don't you're not gonna have good neutral. So, but if you have 24 7 damage boost, which is I think it's eight percent right now, right? And speed

Coach Mills (32:53.63)
Yeah, eight eight percent, yeah. Yep.

Fauwkz (32:55.359)
And your mantis is pumping out damage, then I it's it's too much. It's too consistent, right? So if you change if you change mantis, you'll still run into like triple support viable comps like a a Luna Rocket Ultron. That could be viable, right? And things like that, but that's not gonna be consistently always the case. Where mantis is consistently always the case, whether she has the Loki team up or the Ultron or Rocket. There's a ton of triple support comps, but the ones consistent thing is gonna be Mantis.

CaptainCoach (33:26.934)
Yeah, Shibby, did you wanna chime in on that?

Coach Mills (33:27.06)
You will use Yeah, you had something you wanted to say?

ShibbyMR (33:28.895)
Yeah, I think I think triple support comps when the when the triple supports require a high level of like skill and execution are way more interesting, right? Like for to contrast the Mantis ones, the the triple support deadpool compositions are way more interesting to watch because the Deadpool actually has to land abilities, he has to navigate his really low HP bar, jumping in and all that stuff. Most triple support Deadpool composition or players don't

actually even get the max value out of that hero. And wait, maybe we could talk about triple support Deadpool. I have a lot of issues with how like brain dead his E plus ultimate ability is and that kind of stuff. But it's fundamentally more interesting. It's kind of like a Yeah. It's so brain dead that you just one button, two button, and you essentially have kind of the same problem with Mantis. But outside of that, when you're actually watching the support Deadpool play and he has to

Coach Mills (34:10.748)
I'm abusing it and ranked, I like it. It's so broken, it's so

ShibbyMR (34:25.903)
aim his guns to heal and he has to throw the bobblehead. He has to go into katana range to fight with his brawl tanks and stuff like that. That's way more interesting and way more engaging to watch than watching a mantis like shooting leaves from like 15 meters away, praying for crits and then like, I've got four leaves, let me triple stack damage boost on my Phoenix and yeah, go, go, do, go crazy. Like that is just not fun to watch. So I agree with Fox. There should be avenues to play triple support.

But the skill expression for triple support should be very, very high, right? Adam is like an okay example. I think his ultimate is really disgusting at times on like on like Central Park Adam is like a weird because his ult is so game-changing because of the way he can like bait out resources and how much value he can get. But like the aim aspect of it, like, hey, I have to hit my clusters, I have to hit headshots to get my live streams and soul bun and all that stuff. Like Neti's is almost there. They took like the cool.

Fauwkz (34:59.075)
No

Coach Mills (35:00.99)
Ha ha ha.

ShibbyMR (35:20.443)
Like I have to be mechanically sound and good at these supports to make them work, but they just front loaded their ultimates to where players can hit that skill ceiling, let's call it, so easily and their ultimate just gets like like coach said, Captain Coach, the the value is too good. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you have you have your off you have your off duelists play it.

Fauwkz (35:36.215)
Mantis is the hardest support in the game. So I don't know if that's totally accurate, because Deadpool's pretty easy and Mantis is pretty hard. That character is like there's there's like

ShibbyMR (35:44.775)
Mantis is hard in a triple support comp though.

Coach Mills (35:46.025)
Wait, the the hardest? Wait, you said Magic is the hardest support in the game? Wait, are we talking skill sealing? Skill sealing? I don't I I No I are we putting are we putting aim skill like at the absolute? That's crazy. Well that's nuts. Positioning?

CaptainCoach (35:47.032)
Mantis is not I don't think Mantis is hard. I did

Fauwkz (35:50.965)
Mantis is Yeah. Well no, Luna would be higher. Luna would be higher. But yeah, Mantis is one of the hardest supports in the game. No, no. No, no, no. The the APM on the APM required to be a top-level mantis is insane. Right? Because because the the No, no, no, because because y the skill to be able to go from I'm shooting and hitting headshots to giving leaves and keeping my leaves active is

ShibbyMR (35:51.41)
Metal.

CaptainCoach (35:53.324)
I I

ShibbyMR (36:00.19)
Wait, Fox, in a triple support comp f Mantis is hard.

ShibbyMR (36:08.326)
I agree.

Coach Mills (36:09.01)
Well yeah, but that's true with a lot of supports, no? No?

Fauwkz (36:20.373)
is way, way, way, way harder than w what whatever you're doing on Sioux, holding M1, playing in a good spot and making you sure you get hit a good push every ten seconds. Right? So so like like the the you would have to hit me with what's the other what's the art other hardest support? Because it's Luna and Mantis. Those are the only two.

Coach Mills (36:27.378)
Well I'm not talking about. Yeah but yeah, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The decision making.

ShibbyMR (36:31.037)
Yeah, but like the the Grandmaster Mantis isn't doing that shit.

Coach Mills (36:36.392)
I mean I have I have a pretty I I my my hot you're probably gonna disagree with my hot take. I actually think Jeff has one of the highest. Jeff and Loki I think are high. You don't think so? You don't think Jeff? You don't think Jeff? You don't think Jeff is high? Skill ceiling?

Fauwkz (36:45.175)
Loki's high. No, I think I think Je I think Jeff is high. I think Jeff is high, but but he has a but he has a much

Coach Mills (36:50.674)
I don't I I feel like I'll there's a I I don't know. You might disagree with me. I feel like there's a lot of pros phoning in Jeff. Like they d they're not really like like that. You know what I'm saying? Like like they they're just they're well I I'm not talking about fate. I'm just saying there's some pros. When we when we ran into some Jeff meta's, there was a lot of pros just phoning it in. They it just kinda felt like they were just phoning it in. They were not That's Well, that's what I'm talking about. Like Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Like

ShibbyMR (36:51.069)
Jeff and a dive comp is high.

Fauwkz (36:56.033)
No the

ShibbyMR (36:58.323)
I mean, watch fate. Whoa, whoa, watch fate.

Fauwkz (37:02.147)
Well, that's the best Jeff in the world.

ShibbyMR (37:03.139)
I

Fauwkz (37:08.291)
That's true. No, bro, the K when we ran into Death Meta for the first time, bro, we had no idea what we were doing. What's this character do?

ShibbyMR (37:16.583)
The Infinity Stone Jeff was phoning it in low key, right? Like the

Fauwkz (37:18.549)
No, no, it's no, Je Jeff is Jeff is up there, but I I think the hit what he has to do, right, is a lot the the APM, 'cause again, like when when I'm talking about skill, right, there's there's like three things that that it comes into it's decision making mechanics and and APM, right? In my opinion. Right. And decision making is positioning and all that stuff. And Jeff is really heavy on that, right? You gotta make sure you're in the right spot. You gotta make sure you're healing, damaging the right thing. You can cancel ult so you have good

Coach Mills (37:28.968)
That's I guess APM, yeah.

Fauwkz (37:47.055)
You you can make good decisions with your ult, but your APM is not gonna be high on Jeff. Right? The the mechanics that it takes to execute that character is not high. Mantis it requires a lot. And and coach, I I I saw you disagree with me. I'd like to hear what you what your thoughts on why you think mantis is easy. But the the reason I think mantis is difficult is because one, I need my mantis hitting headshots, right? So I have leaves all the time, and you need to be going all the time. It's shooting and giving leaves and you gotta weave it in or else it's very like I'm shoot, shoot, shoot.

I'm giving leaves. I'm shoot shoot shoot no, it's gotta be consistently of nice flow and then you're really getting and then you're really on the gas on that character.

Coach Mills (38:16.308)
'Cause 'cause I think I

Coach Mills (38:22.344)
Cause I think I I I've talked to a lot of different pros and they all have different opinions. I think I think Kurova had of course Adam. I mean he's biased, but he thinks Adam is the hardest one to play. He's at he's any but but it but it it's it's the same. Aren't they the same though? Like the both the characters, like like APM wise. Well, I guess not APM because you don't have to keep things active as much. Some of that it just feels like it's I don't know, APM for APM's sake. I don't I don't know how to describe it. It's like

Fauwkz (38:29.241)
Bruh you No. G Kurova de G shut the fuck up, Kurova.

ShibbyMR (38:29.437)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (38:43.491)
Yeah.

No, cur cur cur i the the only reason you would say Adam is is is if you're talking about aim. But I think that like Luna has it's more important to aim well on Luna than it is on Adam. 'Cause I don't need to aim my heels on Adam. I just need to hit headshots or right clicks and things like that. So no, I don't think there's any world where Adam's even close to the most difficult.

Coach Mills (39:04.968)
Wait, tet Tangent, who do you think is the highest top three highest skill ceiling characters in the entire game?

Fauwkz (39:10.287)
Cap Luna Cap Luna Silock? Cap Cap Luna Silock or Star Lord. Well I gave one per I gave one per roll. I said the one

ShibbyMR (39:10.809)
S Spider Man. Wait. Are you

Coach Mills (39:11.828)
Cap Luna. Cap Luna Silock. Wait, top three? Skill ceiling? What about what about characters like S What about what characters like Spy what about characters like Spider-Man and Hulk and stuff like that, huh? No! Okay. Not Spider-Man? You don't think Spider-Man has an extremely high ceiling?

CaptainCoach (39:12.643)
Cap.

ShibbyMR (39:17.319)
Why is why is Are you saying for pro play or are you saying for the game entirely?

Fauwkz (39:25.483)
Nah, bro. Okay, Hulk Hulk Hulk. Yeah, Hulk should be up. Hulk Hulk should be up there, but Cap's the top Cap's the hardest can't Cap's the hardest tank in the game. Cap's got a lot of tech, he's got a lot of mechanics, he's got a lot of mo he's got a lot of movement, right? Luna's by far the hardest support or Mantis, right? And then the hardest DPS is either gonna be Psylock or Star Lord. It's gonna be a macro heavy character with a lot of decision making and a lot of aim requirement and a lot of cooldown decisions, right? So those two DPS are probably the hardest. Cap is probably

Coach Mills (39:36.424)
It's not the thing? No, I'm just kidding, I'm kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just

CaptainCoach (39:44.91)
Star L I thought Star Lord.

Coach Mills (39:53.96)
I should have brought light in. That'd be fun. I should've brought it.

Fauwkz (39:55.275)
The hardest. Yeah, vr and then yeah, and then I'd say Luna or Mantis. Those are probably the the the the hardest characters in the game, in my opinion. Other people will disagree, but

Coach Mills (40:01.552)
Interesting. Interesting. I I I guess I don't I don't really put that much stock in aim skill, to be honest with you. I feel like at a certain level everyone should have it. Like it's it's just like everyone should have the same kids get.

ShibbyMR (40:02.759)
Does it doesn't

CaptainCoach (40:03.33)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (40:06.125)
Yeah, neither do I. Yeah, n neither do I. But I think it I think it's an element of it. And so I think it shouldn't be like Daredevil's one of the hardest characters in the game. There's not there's not a lot of aim skill required to play him, but the APM's insane, the decision making's insane, but the s it's the exact same thing as Psilock and Star Lord, just with aim, so I'd give them the edge.

Coach Mills (40:16.82)
Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

Coach Mills (40:28.596)
Interesting. Interesting.

Fauwkz (40:30.339)
Right? So. And then Cap, the the the skill ceiling of Cap is disgusting. Right? Like y the things you see, trust me, Krasmang and Pauli do on that character is not like your your one above all ranked ranked Captain America's. Y you you're you're like you're one shotting three hundred HP characters in half a second.

ShibbyMR (40:43.409)
It's not easily replicatable.

Coach Mills (40:48.212)
How do you about like Rogue? Where do put her? up there? Rogue broke and toe. Yeah.

Fauwkz (40:51.625)
up there. Rogue is rogue rogue is dope. Rogue is do well she she not really. Gay rogue rogue is rogue is really rogue is hard and rogue is really fun. And and she's a good character to be strong, which I think she is right now. but she's probably a little lower than some of the main tanks. I think main tanks are generally a little high

ShibbyMR (40:53.383)
She's high.

CaptainCoach (40:56.258)
Rogue was my hardest tank, personally.

Coach Mills (41:11.06)
Interesting. Okay. Okay. Okay.

CaptainCoach (41:13.23)
What are your what are your hardest three ships?

ShibbyMR (41:16.095)
Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna throw Rogue. See, I put Spider Man as DPS just because the tech requirement is very, very, very, very high. So well, so okay. Do you think do you think Well I I this is where I dig into Fox's brain and say, do you think half of the combos that Spider Man does is more flashy rather than Yeah, yeah. See that's that's okay, so I get what he's saying.

Coach Mills (41:20.626)
Spider Man too. Yeah, what's your what do you get Spider Man? You know he's hot he's hard. He's he the okay, we're talking about the ceiling here though. Like the s Yapsu ceiling.

Fauwkz (41:25.057)
It's not that hard. It's not that hard. No, no, it's not that hard.

Fauwkz (41:32.043)
Yeah, it's not that nah.

Fauwkz (41:38.891)
They're all auto lock. They're all auto lock. Right? The only the the only the only tech with Spider Man is making sure that you have the swing down to be able to go into the swing into the downslam. If you know how to do that, you're kind of unlocked on the character.

CaptainCoach (41:52.728)
Rob I've been saying this for months.

Coach Mills (41:53.076)
Yeah, but that's not the ceiling though. Like that's like level one on every Spider Man. Like you can't

Fauwkz (41:55.605)
No, y yeah, but but the the ceiling doesn't go up that much higher from there because all you gotta do is hit a tracer and then everything else is auto lock. His p no one hundred percent agree. He's a he's the he's the most fake hard character in the game. He's the most fake hard character in the game. He's not that hard. There's not that much tech. It really isn't. He's got two he's got two combos, one of them is hard, which is a which is a swing combo, and the other one's autolock.

CaptainCoach (42:00.13)
Yeah. Spider Man's fake card.

Coach Mills (42:03.998)
Fay card? Really? This is it this is interesting. I I I'm very curious what the comments are gonna think.

ShibbyMR (42:05.518)
I don't know about fake art. But like

CaptainCoach (42:05.806)
He's fancied. He's fancied. I've been saying that for years.

CaptainCoach (42:17.699)
Firement.

Coach Mills (42:20.414)
I'm I'm not even I'm not even talking about his tech. I just I mainly just think about the freedom of movement. No, and and you also like hit hitting tracers hit hitting tra hit it hitting tracers aren't like consistently is not the easiest thing in the world.

Fauwkz (42:26.063)
Nah, I'm with Coach bro. Nah, I'm with cup I'm with Captain Coach, bro. No, he knows ball, bro. Yeah, he knows ball.

CaptainCoach (42:29.164)
That was my first meme. Sorry, man was my first meme.

Fauwkz (42:34.519)
It's a projectile. Everybody does it. Yeah. You got you got five. You miss you miss four, you hit one, you still hit the combo. I know, but

CaptainCoach (42:36.162)
And they're they're always right in front of you too, a lot of times so you just like weave it in your combos, you get like free ones. Yeah.

Coach Mills (42:41.478)
Yeah, w we're talking about the ceiling though. Like the ceiling is you don't miss

ShibbyMR (42:44.915)
We're talking about things like hydro combo, like like but you, Fox, you believe that stuff is like unnecessary to get the value out of Spider-Man that's necessary to I see. Okay, I can understand that. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah.

Fauwkz (42:51.543)
Yeah, I think I think that's I think that's just TikTok I think that's just TikTok stuff. I don't think that's actually I don't think that's valuable. Like like all these ranked Spider-Mans or whatever, like f for example, okay, if we ever actually ran into a Spider-Man meta, mellower energy would be the two best Spider-Mans in the world, probably. Or let's throw like Tanuki in there or something like that, right? They they would be the three best. You wouldn't see them doing any of that nonsense. They wouldn't do any of that nonsense. They would be playing Spider-Man at a higher level than everybody else, and they would be doing the basic stuff that you get consistent value out of.

Coach Mills (42:58.484)
Look him, I I can see that.

ShibbyMR (43:11.741)
They would just do the bread and butter like fundamental yeah.

CaptainCoach (43:12.718)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (43:20.737)
And that's skill ceiling, but they would do it with good decision making, with good timing and good pathing. Okay? And that's what skill is. Okay? Doing all this TikTok nonsense and like, this is how you one-shot 350 on Spider-Man. I don't care!

CaptainCoach (43:26.35)
That's

Coach Mills (43:31.112)
Right. I I c Okay Well that I I guess the there has to be a there has to be like a di a differential too, because like there are some characters that there's texts that you can technically do on the character that are actually like not needed at all. Like like a lot of like the Hulk bunny bunny jumping, I think that's a big one. It's like there's some creators that make Well, yeah, but like how do how do I put it? It whether you could do it or not He's bunny hopping.

Fauwkz (43:47.085)
That's that's necessary though.

ShibbyMR (43:52.039)
To get back.

Fauwkz (43:52.237)
The amount of time the amount of times Krasmang lives because he's bunny hopping on Hulk versus like these other Hulks that have no hands, like Vinny and Crimzo, they like y you need to be able to be hop on that character.

ShibbyMR (43:56.808)
Or cart lover f chases, yeah.

Coach Mills (44:02.92)
Well, I guess like I'm I'm trying to think of like an example, like some lineup stuff, like some rollout stuff. I I don't I'm trying I'm trying to think of some examples of like like text. Is Spider Man the only example? Well, yeah, but like is Spider Man the only example of character like a character that has like like a it has a workshop like you there's there's things that you can do that don't actually matter. Like things you can learn that they're not gonna increase your value, but they are like technically increasing the skill ceiling of the character. 'Cause it's more you can learn.

Fauwkz (44:09.103)
Yeah, but that's all pre made, right? Like Mills, you you can figure all that out in one rank session, bro.

ShibbyMR (44:09.351)
I mean Venom Yeah.

Fauwkz (44:18.34)
Venom.

Fauwkz (44:29.935)
Cat was kind of one. Cat was kinda one last patch.

ShibbyMR (44:31.533)
Looking f but looking flashy, looking flashy shouldn't s equate to, this character's harder. All of Captain America's tech is necessary to get the value that you need from him. You're not going to if you watch like a one above all or like an eternity Captain America America versus the pro players ones, the t the time to kill is fundamentally lower on them because they're

Auto canceling something, or they're not shield throwing correctly, or they're not, you know, comboing their dash into slam or slam dash out, all that kind of stuff. Like Captain America's tech, and I know all the Spider Man players in your comments will be like, well, Captain America has like all of his shit is necessary to get the value that he needs. Whereas, yes, yeah.

Fauwkz (45:11.383)
It's also practical. That's the important thing. It's practical to do certain techs. Spider Man might be one of the I I'm trying to think of like who else would be on that list. Venom would, but Venom's swing tech is really necessary.

Coach Mills (45:24.542)
So do you think Spider Man is low skill ceiling wise or you just think he's not as high? Like what about him versus Daredevil? Where would you put him? Really interesting. What about him versus magic?

Fauwkz (45:27.668)
No, he's like mid. He's like mid. He's like Daredevil's way harder. Way harder.

ShibbyMR (45:28.486)
No no no.

ShibbyMR (45:33.149)
Daredevil's harder because you have to juggle your flames and stuff.

Fauwkz (45:37.231)
Spider Man's probably harder.

Coach Mills (45:39.922)
Interesting. Okay, I'm just trying to get a get a range of where you actually think his his skill ceiling is.

Fauwkz (45:41.933)
Yeah.

Well yeah, magic magic is so simple, like so simple, that you're really just it's just about timing and then who you're fighting and when. Right? There's not a lot of tech on magic. There there's a decent APM, right? but if you learn the combos, which they're practical combos, right, then you're good. But that's gonna take, I don't know, ten hours, ten, fifteen hours? So

Coach Mills (45:54.226)
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

ShibbyMR (46:06.449)
Like a one throtting one shotting through the Luna ultimate stuff like that. Like the the good magic stick, the really, really good ones can do that, but

Fauwkz (46:10.733)
Yeah. So. Do we wanna do we wanna go back to the w we we went off on away tangent away from triple support?

Coach Mills (46:12.692)
Okay. Interesting, interesting. All right, so

Well well we went on a big tangent, but I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna bring this all back to the new hero. I wanna no, I know it's it's all good. I wanna talk about the new hero. I'm gonna talk about Cyclops. what is people's I wanna I wanna go through every single person. I'm gonna start with you, Shibby. First impressions of the character, how you feel about the design of the character, how you feel about the power level of the character, and is this like one to ten. Give me a one to ten scale of like the release of Cyclops. So yeah.

Fauwkz (46:22.359)
My bad. No.

ShibbyMR (46:44.829)
Ten is like release Elsa, maybe Cyclops like

Coach Mills (46:47.206)
No no not power level. Like like one to ten as far as like like how much you like it type release. Yeah, not power level, not power level, no.

ShibbyMR (46:56.115)
I mean, I I'm like a tank player and support player, so I don't really I don't love Cyclops. But if I'm unbiased, I think I think I think a lot of people are complaining about like his design. I think I think he's cool. Like, I don't know what they expected for a laser character to fucking be, first of all. Like, I don't know what they expected. I really I think his ability to off-angle and get out of off-angles is the best in the game, right? Because he has the

Coach Mills (47:00.122)
He was a fuck ya he should have been a tank one. Yeah, yeah, I gotcha.

Fauwkz (47:02.831)
That's gas.

Fauwkz (47:15.993)
Thank gosh it's not Emma.

Coach Mills (47:18.983)
ShibbyMR (47:25.455)
Omnidirectional laser stuff where you can like zip around corners. Like you're gonna see like right now we don't see it, but by the time Fox probably enters playoffs with it with Swamp Gaming, the Cyclops in pro play, like once they understand what map they're on, they're gonna be like zipping around the fucking map terrain crazy and like, you're gonna think you have a kill angle on a cyclops. he's out of position, he's gone. And like that's cool design and that's cool to watch. It's not cool for me when I'm fucking jumping on me as Hulk and he's halfway around the goddamn map and I'm like, All man.

I guess I'm just I'm done. So yeah, I got outplayed. I got outskilled, bro. Like I got outskilled, bro. Like

CaptainCoach (47:55.625)
You got outplayed, man.

Coach Mills (47:57.371)
Ha ha ha.

Fauwkz (47:59.299)
Ha ha.

CaptainCoach (47:59.789)
Fucking duh.

Coach Mills (48:02.11)
Let's go Okay, so one to ten, is it the eight? Yeah, it's cool. Hold on.

ShibbyMR (48:03.464)
Like an eight. I think eight. Eight. I think he's like an eight. He's cool. I think he's cool. I don't people are bitching about him, but I think he's not like Elsa or anything. He's a fucking he's an eight. He's cool. He's just annoying.

Fauwkz (48:10.307)
What is this? Shibby, you just railed him the entire time. You give him an eight? What is what what is this what is this, bro? The ca the character doesn't have feelings, bro. You can say four. You could say four, bro.

Coach Mills (48:11.784)
Well

ShibbyMR (48:15.302)
Nah, he's cool. He's cool. I think he's cool. I ha I'm unbiased. I'm unbi

Coach Mills (48:16.788)
He all He shoots lasers, he's fucking cool No Okay, what about you Fox? Well what about you before we give Okay okay okay Okay Cat Cap, what do you think? What do you think?

Fauwkz (48:26.529)
No, I I could go last, I've been yapping the most. Go to co go to coates, go to codes.

CaptainCoach (48:28.812)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I just want to say I'm so happy they finally put a hit scan hero in the game that doesn't have some form of like micro C C. So that that alone makes him actually feel balanced, even though he's clearly overpowered. Like I th I think this character is is busted, but not as busted as some of the releases we've seen. I agree with you, Shibby.

Coach Mills (48:40.558)
Ha ha

Fauwkz (48:41.389)
I was gonna

Coach Mills (48:48.478)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (48:55.576)
Just the CC that Elsa had alone just made her so frustrating. When you can CC someone and also kill them full the dead, I actually feel like with Cyclops doesn't feel that bad to play against because there's counterplay. I can jump out of his ultimate, which is, you know, it's pretty freaking easy to aim. It's pretty massive. Like if but like you you can still if like the cyclops isn't playing well, you can get you can jump out of it. You can use mobility spells. There's a timing window. So it kind of encourages him to like combo it. He to me actually, I think overtuned, but I like his design.

Think he's a a cool hero, cool good addition to the game. my of what how how good he is? how much I like him? So I actually I was actually playing him in quick plays, which I don't normally do. Yeah, dude. I well I was gonna say it was because I played two ranked games that night. I'm like, yeah, f I'm fucking done ranked for the night. We're doing quick plays, but I literally I just it was it was it it came from a rage quit, is why I played him. But

Coach Mills (49:25.084)
What your score be? What would your score? How mu how much you like him? How much you like him? Yeah, how much how good the release? Yeah. Yeah. Let's go. Let's fucking go.

Fauwkz (49:29.52)
how good the release is.

ShibbyMR (49:34.548)
so okay. Better give a ten. Better give a ten.

Fauwkz (49:34.985)
Shap and coach running down quick play games. Get back on the green monster.

Coach Mills (49:48.446)
Yeah.

ShibbyMR (49:48.466)
Mm-hmm.

CaptainCoach (49:53.174)
Yeah, eight. Eight as well, actually. I actually really like him. He's fun.

Coach Mills (49:54.355)
Hey, okay. Alright. I guess I'll go I'll I'll go before you fox because you want to go last. yeah, so I this season or this patch I completely dropped tanking. I said, fuck tanking. I'm gonna just play only Poke Slop. That's all I've been playing and mainly mainly Cycloughs. No this character feels fucking great. Like he's like he's easy to aim with, like way easier than Gene. I I I I think it has to do with the

Fauwkz (50:07.371)
I saw you I saw you on Cyclops. Yeah that's all I've seen you play.

Coach Mills (50:20.456)
The the ticks or maybe it's the I I don't know. Is the actual hitbox of it bigger? Yeah, it just feels fucking easy to hit like I can't miss on this character. He's like simple in the right ways, but he's still stimulating. I don't know what it is. It's like he's still tr like I I'm I'm getting engaged. I'm getting the dopamine from the pressing my E, but it's like it's I'm not having to think too much. I'm not having to do what you're talking about on Mantis, which is like perfectly balancing like all this shit, like at you know I'm in an orchestra.

Fauwkz (50:23.203)
The width. It's the width. It's the width, yeah.

Coach Mills (50:50.46)
Just get to stand in an off angle and just shoot people. I think that the character, if I'm talking about power level of the character, to me, he seems very strong. Like he gets to stand among some of the best characters in the game, but I don't think he's anywhere near the tier of like release Elsa or release Gene. Like he's not to that level. For the most part, I would say he's probably balanced unless you give him Mantis Ultron. Then I think the character's fucking absurd. It's it's really a

Once again, it's a triple support problem, but I do think that the character is a little bit too strong when you per perfectly enable him. Cause he just I mean, he just doesn't have any vulnerabilities when he has that level of pocket. But yeah, I'm I'm loving hey, 321, Rocket, Rocket Amp, Cyclops will kill everything. It's fucking great. It's it's a good time. Yeah, yeah, it's a real good time. so if I'm giving it a review, ten out of fucking ten buff this character, because I like to play him anyway. So yeah, I got move on.

ShibbyMR (51:35.348)
Destroy everything, yeah, and your path.

Fauwkz (51:38.127)
Yeah, did Mills did?

Fauwkz (51:43.341)
Yo, did Mills just call every single hit scam player dog shit and say your role is easy? That's all I heard, bro. That's all I heard. I said, I said, I I got a brain off, I just sit in the off angle and I shoot people. That's all I heard, Captain Coach, bro.

Coach Mills (51:46.874)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (51:47.086)
You should have you watched his stream lately?

ShibbyMR (51:49.48)
Yeah. You're nothing without your pocket.

Coach Mills (51:50.377)
That's no no I I ca no No No No I no I I got in a fight with someone on X and I was like they they were talking someone said some shit on X like like every hit scan character is harder than every tank. They said some shit like that on X and I was like Alright this half season I'm not playing any fucking tanks and I'm only playing Poke Slop hit scans and I promise you I'm gonna peek higher than I did before. Like this shit is so like I'm like we

CaptainCoach (51:54.072)
Mills has turned into a rage baiter, bro.

Fauwkz (52:09.359)
Time to get off Twitter.

Coach Mills (52:19.912)
We don't play tanks because we can't aim. We play tanks because we like to play tanks. Like it it like this shit is easy. When I can when I can stand across the fucking Like like the that's the thing that I'm noticing though is like when I play Cyclops, I think right now I'm one one away from eternity or something. I don't I we I went on a big one streak last night, but it was like you literally just get to stand there. Yeah, it's let's fucking go. But like there like there are certain

Fauwkz (52:24.813)
Yes.

CaptainCoach (52:25.432)
We got a man on the inside.

ShibbyMR (52:28.094)
Ha ha ha.

Fauwkz (52:38.883)
Shout out to all Coach Mills' win traders.

ShibbyMR (52:43.081)
Shout shout out Pinky. Shout out Pinky, bro. I saw that Mills.

Coach Mills (52:46.26)
Yeah, no Pinky No Pink Pinky's the fucking go by the way. but like you stand like there when opponents come out on certain characters, you just know you're gonna win. Like there's so many characters that are fucking ass that when you play a good poke slop character and you can hit your shots, they can't do anything to you. Like you're doing damage the second they peek across the map and like they ha they have to play well in even to to even get into their effective range. I don't know. I like Poke Slop's OP, I'll keep saying it. In ranked play, just play characters that shoot.

Be effective from everywhere on the map. Like I don't know what to say. Anyways, go on, Fox.

Fauwkz (53:20.739)
Yeah, guns OP. No, no, 10 out of 10. This character is perfect. Okay? His ults his his alt sucks. Okay? Let's just get that out of the way. His alt is freaking terrible. Okay? It it gets cucked by every single support in the game. Lamped, faded, Su Shield somehow blocks it. Right? like I didn't think that was the case on release, and then like I saw a TikTok, and then I saw it in our scrims, and I was like, my gosh, wait, it's actually true. I was like, every single

Coach Mills (53:26.086)
Let's go!

Coach Mills (53:45.106)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Groot Groot fucking wool.

Fauwkz (53:50.049)
support just screws his all. And then back to coat coach's point, he doesn't have any CC. So we finally we're finally moving away from every single DPS hit scan has to have a CC. Instead they gave him more mobility than the rest of them, which I think is way healthier, generally. Let him live, but don't let him just one tap your back line with a stun. That's kinda that's a little bit boring, right? I I agree with you he he's way weaker than release Elsa, right? Release Phoenix wasn't that strong.

I swear that character had no range. That character could not hit that character had no range. Besides the melee tech, that character wasn't that good nice. Okay, but that was it, bro. That was the only thing that made her nice, okay?

Coach Mills (54:22.191)
Whoa. Whoa. Whoa, whoa. Yeah, well that melee tech was broken as hell. Only only the one shot that can k

ShibbyMR (54:26.216)
That melee weave bullshit.

CaptainCoach (54:31.042)
To be fair

ShibbyMR (54:31.223)
yeah, that was it. Only only be able to apply three sparks in two seconds flat. yeah.

Fauwkz (54:33.333)
Well, okay, her her ult was like her ult was like three hundred HP. It was easy to break. Nobody knew how to use it yet.

CaptainCoach (54:39.436)
Don't think they knew that melee tech was going to be a problem like it was, though. Right. So it's if we're talking about the design. Yeah. get what you're saying.

Fauwkz (54:42.679)
Yeah, I didn't think either. Yeah. So I think that character was actually kinda balanced on release besides the melee tech. but yeah, so so her her Cyclops' ult ain't that good. His neutral's really good. Again, his one feels great to use. I like the kit. the characters i it's a great character. It's people love the character just in general, outside of just, you know, him being in the game. And so I think it's it was a great release by Neddies. Yeah, I like everything about him. He's he's pretty strong. he's probably best in slot.

ShibbyMR (54:44.296)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (55:10.893)
But it's not like a huge gap between him and Elsa. So yeah, it's good. I like Big fan.

CaptainCoach (55:18.976)
I mean, there's definitely something to be said for having something to be not unfun to play against. I I think, you know, I think partly why like they gave him that instant, like guaranteed damage on his beam is because he doesn't have the micro C Cause I think that's why they gave a lot of those hit scan characters to C C is just to give him an easy way to get free damage off and it's more of like a casual thing. So I mean maybe maybe it's a maybe like a commitment more to be balancing around the higher ranks potentially.

ShibbyMR (55:25.935)
E

Fauwkz (55:38.457)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (55:44.415)
Well one thing I will say is have y'all read the like you know, you go on the Marvel Rivals website and you read the ability list of the character. Like it's it's a fucking Wikipedia just to understand the actual damage his ricochet's gonna do if it hits a ground and hits a person and then ricochets to a person. Cause it's like Yeah, I tried to fucking I tried No, 'cause I was writing a guide. I was writing a guide and I was like I was like, wait, the primary and the alternate lowers his cooldown on his ricochet. I didn't even fucking know that. when you bounce on the when you bounce like

Fauwkz (55:45.583)
Mm-hmm.

Fauwkz (56:01.081)
you actually tried to understand that? Hell no.

CaptainCoach (56:02.798)
Yeah.

ShibbyMR (56:11.901)
No.

Coach Mills (56:14.334)
There's percentage changes for everything it hits. If it's a person, it changes. If it's a wall, it changes in a different percentage. I'm like, they made this shit way too complicated for no reason. Like, I don't understand why they did that. Like, but whatever. I guess it's it it works out. It does the thing. Just just press it when they're low. Yeah, I know just yeah. No, yeah.

Fauwkz (56:28.023)
All I know is it does it does a decent amount of damage if you hit him directly and it can hit him twice. That's all I know.

ShibbyMR (56:31.408)
It Yeah, it does it does damage. That's all I know. It does I

CaptainCoach (56:33.185)
I saw

Fauwkz (56:38.445)
Just press it when they're low. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (56:39.094)
I don't know. I just I was just gonna say I saw a pi a picture of a one laser going off and bouncing like fifteen different people. It looked like the the scene from the Resident Evil movie with like them trying to infiltrate like so I d I'm like, Okay, I got I know what that does. That's

ShibbyMR (56:40.04)
My my one com

Fauwkz (56:56.163)
Damage.

ShibbyMR (56:56.274)
Yeah, my my one complaint, and I think this is just more of like a rival's issue, but like specifically Cyclops, that the visual clutter is kind of crazy when like the lasers start spreading apart and like it can spread pretty wide, like the beams and then all the stuff happening. There is like a a crazy amount. I think it's just because his shit's red as well. So it like really like messes with my eyes. But I think that's just like kind of a rivals issue, unfortunately. You have twelve euros doing a bunch of shit. God forbid there are two cyclopses.

Coach Mills (57:04.894)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (57:05.172)
Mm. Yeah.

ShibbyMR (57:24.446)
both lasering and so you see your psychops' laser and then enemy psychops laser and it it's like diffracting and it's like all right man this is like

CaptainCoach (57:30.84)
Two Cyclops. You should take into eighteen versus eighteen. I saw about fifteen cyclops. They should give a seizure warning for that game mode now because the cyclops. I that's where I was playing them actually was eighteen versus eighteen. So it's it's pretty wild in there. Let me tell you.

ShibbyMR (57:33.734)
No, I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. Yeah. Dude. Yeah.

Coach Mills (57:34.213)
what okay.

Fauwkz (57:45.497)
Yeah, I saw day w I saw day one of that, bro. I I was I was up for right as that right as the patch dropped. I was just watching a Madian Amadian play it, bro. What is that? Thirty-six cyclops? That was crazy.

ShibbyMR (57:55.732)
Who

CaptainCoach (57:57.134)
All right, so I got somewhere I want to go, Mills. I've been holding on to this one. We talk about Cyclops now, balanced ish hero for release. Pretty well received, popular. Fox, this is gonna be a question for Shibby, but Fox, when I was looking at your ex post, you said that more nerfs are generally good for the game. Shibby, would you agree with that?

Coach Mills (58:01.619)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, go for it.

ShibbyMR (58:24.852)
so I come originally I come from casting like league. So I co I mean co c coach, I know you come from league. They cycle a lot or they cycle patches a lot. They have a very interesting system where they will like over buff and then throughout the season they will like here's a big buff, here's a big nerf to stuff, like back and forth, back and forth. I think for the current state the game is in right now, I agree with Fox. Nerfing is better because I

Right now, outside of what, maybe two supports in the game, pretty much everybody, at least at the ranked level. I I'm not gonna speak to pro like that because pro is obviously a a different beast at times. But like at the ranked level, you can kind of pick every support outside of like maybe Adam and and occasionally support Deadpool and like you can like win a game. You can like take that character all the way up to eternity one above all. Ninety percent of the tanks in the game are at like a very, very viable balanced state. Obviously there are better ones, don't get me wrong, but like

Outside of what I think I think Thor is like the worst tank in the game right now. And so like outside of him, I that that guy's like, yeah, have fun. You know when you said about like when I when you open up on heroes, if I see a Thor and I have a Cyclops, that Thor's not fucking playing the game, bro. Like he's not allowed to play the video game. So I think right now, yeah, if they nerf the the duelist class a little bit more, you'll see a lot more stuff coming out in viability. I mean, even Penny has a spot now. I mean, pro pennies, I'm gonna be honest, pro pennies fucking suck at Penny. Like they

Coach Mills (59:28.276)
D tier, I've said it before, buff him.

ShibbyMR (59:53.555)
Go hit up Eric Cartman, go hit up Full Metal Lamps, learn the fucking like I don't know what pro players are doing. Maybe Foxy can speak to that.

Coach Mills (59:58.385)
Fauwkz (59:59.607)
Why do they all why do they all have ninety percent win rates in ranked then, bro? Shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up, Shibby.

ShibbyMR (01:00:02.822)
No, no, they fucking suck. They fucking Fox Fox they fucking suck. They're ness no no no no. Watch the watch EU. What no, they fucking suck! Dude, pro pennies suck. Maybe they're better now. Maybe you have some hidden scrim info, but the last week of Ignite, you're telling me those pro pennies were look good on penny? Like they were good on Penny? Be be dead ass. Nah, you're crazy. You're crazy. You're crazy, Fox. Anyways.

Coach Mills (01:00:02.866)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:00:08.146)
Wait, wait, wait, wait, is this the spider is this the Spider Man thing? Like like once again yeah, it's it's

Fauwkz (01:00:11.449)
Yeah, it is. It's just all the shit is unnecessary.

Fauwkz (01:00:26.189)
Yeah. Yeah dead ass.

Coach Mills (01:00:30.578)
I I I remember I was I was I jumped into a trust me stream and someone was like Bro you suck up penny swap off like in his in his chat and he was like he was like I'm learning this fucking character I don't care if I win like he said some shit like that he's like I'm just learning this fucking character But I but that is it is interesting because they are behind like you don't agree that any pros are like behind the curve on learning like this niche character?

Fauwkz (01:00:37.549)
He has a ninety nine percent win rate.

Fauwkz (01:00:50.827)
sure, they they might be behind on like line like there's some skill to like the lineups and and knowing mine spots and things like that. No, no, that there is. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, that there's some sauce with like knowing lineups and knowing where to put mines and where supports are gonna back into and things like that, right? There's absolutely sauce on that. But that is kind of unnecessary. The reason you see pro pennies, right, in ranked have such high astronomical win rates is one, that character's busted. Okay, take that shit out back, kill that thing. Okay. but

Coach Mills (01:01:18.59)
shit.

CaptainCoach (01:01:19.17)
Finally I found one finally

Fauwkz (01:01:20.013)
They get an insane amount of val they get an insane amount of value with just the base kit. You don't need any of that. You have a three-second stun. You know how to get value to that three-second stun? Well, the pro player canceling all your cooldowns and alts does. So you ultimate denied. Okay? He doesn't need his Luna to hit to cancel the strange alt or anything like that. He cancels everything. So like I saw Pauli had like a 91% win rate on Penny Parker or something like this.

I'm sure Polly's dog shit with all this tech, but he knows what he's doing. Okay. He's just a better player. So it's like, sure, like I I don't know exactly where to put my nest or something. Like I chatted with who came to my who came to my name? Full Metal Lamps. I had a conversation with Full Metal Lamps about it. He agrees, right? But he but it's like he also thinks like Penny's like fundamentally like if you're losing to Penny, you're bad. Right. Which I agree, right? Like like like that character's not strong at pro, but but you can cheese a point or two or things like this. But yeah, it's like

ShibbyMR (01:01:52.754)
Yeah, I will say the learning yeah, they're faster at learning. They're faster at learning.

ShibbyMR (01:02:09.534)
Yes, I agree.

Fauwkz (01:02:16.941)
All that stuff is pretty unnecessary, but there is some there's there's some sauce there.

ShibbyMR (01:02:21.612)
Yeah, I believe that any pro player, if given

Coach Mills (01:02:24.293)
no player hit rank one on Penny. Is Penny opi yeah in the fucking document

Fauwkz (01:02:25.677)
Ha ha.

ShibbyMR (01:02:30.085)
Eric Eric Cartman haunts Captain Coach's nightmares, bro. Eric, that guy like

Coach Mills (01:02:34.45)
No, I know, cat every time I do it with Captain Coach, he always just randomly throws in a fucking penny ban. Like out of nowhere, I'm like, I'm like, stop! I'll say stop Because unlike every like normal human being that swaps off a Hulk and goes like Magneto against penny, like Captain Coach won't he'll just die.

Fauwkz (01:02:40.905)
Dude, no, that shit is gas, coach. No, coach, that shit is gas, bro. No, no. I love schizobanning penny, bro. Bro.

CaptainCoach (01:02:41.588)
I feel comin'. I feel comin'.

ShibbyMR (01:02:43.398)
You you you snipe yeah, you snipe some players though. You snipe some players.

CaptainCoach (01:02:47.838)
I do not snipe, I do not snipe.

Fauwkz (01:02:55.097)
Bro Bro, you see dude, dude, I you you catch me on a mid museum, you catch me on a Clintar bro or a midtown, I'm schizobanning that character. Hell yeah. Get that out of my games, bro. I either have a feeding penny or my team all of a sudden just has, you know, mental fog and they don't know how to actually just shoot the character.

ShibbyMR (01:03:02.728)
Yeah. Central Park, I'm ban I'm banning Penny on Central Park. It's it's getting in there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:03:03.016)
No, there it is. Okay.

CaptainCoach (01:03:03.187)
It's the map. It's that's the map.

CaptainCoach (01:03:12.662)
Yeah. Sometimes like I I haven't seen a penny player in a while and it's getting late and I'm like, Yeah, there's they probably got a penny and I'll just throw one

Fauwkz (01:03:19.875)
Where were we? We were t before we started talking about petty, what were we talking about?

ShibbyMR (01:03:21.532)
Yeah, sorry. I started screaming about Penny and like how pro players are bad at it. well, I I I kind of want to tang it just a little bit. Fox, yeah, nerfing. I think nerfing is is for the current state of the game, I think that if they nerf a couple of the duelists, like, like we're gonna be in a like a really we're like so close to like this really good state in the game, at least I would say in the ranked perspective, 90% of the supports are viable, 90% of the tanks are viable. Like when I s when I see my team pick up,

Fauwkz (01:03:27.398)
nerfing.

CaptainCoach (01:03:28.099)
Nurfing.

Coach Mills (01:03:29.192)
Nerf. yeah.

Coach Mills (01:03:49.66)
It is interest it's interesting.

ShibbyMR (01:03:51.123)
some of these tanks and supports, I'm like, we we can win. Like I w like let's go. As long as I don't like a Thor or an Adam in a two support comp, I'm chillin' like that's I don't think I've ever felt like that previously.

CaptainCoach (01:04:02.252)
conveniently didn't give the viable statistics for DPS heroes. That's a complaint I've seen a lot, is that not enough DPS heroes are viable.

Fauwkz (01:04:09.131)
No, people need to shut the fuck up about that. That's nonsense. No, it it is. Okay so so

CaptainCoach (01:04:11.445)
Ha ha ha.

ShibbyMR (01:04:13.076)
I think in ranked I think in ranked you can take any account any any of these DPS to one above

CaptainCoach (01:04:15.915)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (01:04:16.973)
So so the only reason I say generally nerfing is better is because if you overbuff the character, then it doesn't take as much skill to execute the character. I actually think to to Shabby's point, we're actually in a very good tank situation where almost all of them are very good. Okay. Thor or not Thor. Okay. Outside of Thor and Penny. Okay, outside of Thor and Penny, which their characters fundamentally don't do anything, right? Because you either need a tank to hold space or take space, and Thor and Penny don't really do either. Okay?

Coach Mills (01:04:35.038)
Door. Wait, yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:04:46.164)
I mean ba Thor's Thor's like at least a C tier D PS. We could put him there. It's basically what he is. Yeah, he's not a tank. Yeah, he's not yeah. Yeah, legit.

Fauwkz (01:04:46.211)
Penny does I guess with the nest, but

Sure, but then rework him to be a DPS, right? Just swap him in Mr. Fantastic and we're chillin', okay? Swap him and Mr. Fantastic and we're cooking, okay? but but yeah, so all the tanks basically feel viable. Mag feels a little weak, right? But outside of that, right, all the tanks are pretty good. But you if you were able to mass nerf all of them and keep them still relatively healthy, I think that's generally good. Now, the game feels good to an extent because actually the power levels of all these characters are

ShibbyMR (01:04:52.85)
Welcome to be a fat DPS, bro. Yeah.

Fauwkz (01:05:20.107)
Are pretty balanced support and tank. But DPS is getting cooked right now. That role is so weak in comparison to the other two right now. That e if you lower the power levels of strategists and vanguards, then the the game would just feel better. 2-2-2 would be more viable in more situations, and that would kind of also take care of.

The the not enough DPS are viable. There's 27 DPS. There's only 13 tanks or 14 tanks and 12 supports. Okay. DPS players can get over it, okay? There should only be certain high skill DPS that are viable. Right? You only have like five to six DPS per hit scan and flex DPS category. That should be viable. The rest can be mean stuff. That's fine. Okay. They can be relatively healthy. Like they are. Like magic isn't a throw pick. That character randomly has a 58% win rate. So

So I yeah, I think I think generally nerfing is gonna be better because it allows skill expression to shine and if you make the character too strong, then idiots can get value. Like I shouldn't be able to go and just lock Elsa on Prime Release Elsa and cook a lobby. But I could, right? Like I'm terrible at DPS.

Coach Mills (01:06:26.846)
Right.

CaptainCoach (01:06:27.692)
I know you're a a pro coach for one of the best teams, but I I simply just do not agree. I think D P S

Fauwkz (01:06:32.695)
That's that's fair. That th th this this this ain't a coaching opinion. This is just an opinion opinion. So it's not I'm it's no expert here.

CaptainCoach (01:06:36.588)
I I think DPS heroes have for like ranked, they have some of the most singular like carry potential, right? So from like a ranked experience, I feel like if you want to climb, DPS is like they are the best heroes to Okay.

Fauwkz (01:06:49.697)
I agree with that. no, no, no, no, I don't agree with that. No. Look look look at the look at the rank leaderboard. When was the last time a DPS player hit rank one besides mine? Danny hit it.

ShibbyMR (01:06:50.964)
That's how it should be. That's how it should be.

CaptainCoach (01:06:59.024)
we're talking like the highest levels of play, it's it'll probably be like a support, I feel like. Right.

Fauwkz (01:07:03.127)
It's always strategists. Cooper Tastic and and Valentina and Saipe run the front page. Okay. And then besides that, now it's trust me and Techie and TTK and Krasmang and Scatter. They run the front page and the second page. It's all tank, it's all tanks and supports. And the only way DPS get in there is if you piggyback off one of those roles. So like I agree, maybe in like lower ELOs, DPS has a lot of viability to carry lobbies because the tanks and supports just aren't doing enough.

ShibbyMR (01:07:06.714)
Saibe and yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:07:08.492)
Because yeah, they're the most important.

CaptainCoach (01:07:26.03)
Interesting.

Fauwkz (01:07:33.025)
And so you'll still feel powerful on them. Like I d like I'm not saying DPS is useless, right? But the average power level of the tanks is way higher in terms of what you can do in a lobby. And same with strategists, but strategists it will always be that. Strategists will always be the most powerful role. Okay.

CaptainCoach (01:07:48.856)
Do you think that because there's just better options to swap to more or is it just the actual power level power level?

Fauwkz (01:07:54.159)
I think that's just I just think the power level, right? If if I'm on Angela and I find a Cyclops in an off angle, like GG's, I'm one tapping you, right? So same thing with Rogue, right? I is I see I see a Cyclops in the off angle. If I can grab him and F him and steal his laser beams somehow, right? Like you're dead before you get to play the game. So I can just I can deny you on tank more than you can deny me on do list. Right? So if like cat coach, if I'm playing into you, right, and you're playing Hulk.

CaptainCoach (01:07:59.629)
Right.

CaptainCoach (01:08:11.95)
Mm.

Fauwkz (01:08:21.687)
Great character, but you can do this on any tank, basically, right? If you realize, hey, I'm running into to not me because I'm terrible at DPS, but like insert good DPS player here, you can sit on their head the entire game and make sure they can't play the game, right? For the most part. But you can get screwed, on the other hand, if their strategists have a brain and can help them, right? But that's the strategists carrying, not the DPS.

CaptainCoach (01:08:43.128)
Yeah.

So would you consider then, okay, let let's I'll just use an example of someone like Star Lord, who I struggle with heavily as Hulk, like a good Star Lord, there's pretty much I can't really touch him. so let's say he's challenging an off angle, trying to harass my supports. I jump in, push him away, and it's just that that back and forth all game. Do you think that's more worth it for the Hulk or for the Star Lord? I'm being like an anti carry, stopping him from trying to hit our backline, but at the end of the day, farming alt charge off of me. I'm not really getting any kills.

Maybe the objective moves a little bit. Well, like, where do you draw the line when it comes to like who's being more useful?

Fauwkz (01:09:16.301)
Well, I mean you're taking a worse fight because the he that he wants to do that and you don't, right? So like that that's what's be y you're taking Star Lord in where he wants to be, right? All Star Lord wants to do is fight in the off angle. And so if you're fighting him in the off angle, you're losing. But if you you know, overwhelm him with resources over there and you have you're a Hulk a cup accompanied by a a a Wolverine, you know, that motherfucker's running away. He ain't trying to fight you if you if you're carrying fucking a Wolverine in your pocket, right?

CaptainCoach (01:09:20.226)
Right. Exactly.

Fauwkz (01:09:44.631)
Right. So it's it's it's just y y you're losing that fight. Star Lord, the reason Star Lord is like one of the best characters is is because he wins every single one v one in the offline. Doesn't matter who he's facing. Okay. But that's what that character excels at, right? if you add resources to that, you know, but but that's what y you're trying to do. But he doesn't want to do that to an Angela. Right? He'll he'll do that to everybody but the Angela or the rogue, 'cause they can just one tap you. So

CaptainCoach (01:10:06.915)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (01:10:12.691)
it's yeah, i in that trade Hulk versus Starlord, yeah, you don't want any part of that. Exile and maybe, you know, throw your wolf, right? But but get out of there and go do the other off angle, right? So

CaptainCoach (01:10:22.892)
Yeah, yeah. I mean it it always feels like they're they're they're trying to like bait you into a fight which is just never going to work out. Okay, so then yeah, it should be what what did you want to say?

Fauwkz (01:10:27.078)
yeah.

ShibbyMR (01:10:28.296)
What well I mean it's also you're also relying on like your ranked supports to be able to use the time you're giving them as Hulk the pressure that you're relieving from the Star Lord. But like again, ninety nine percent of support players, that's why to Fox's point, guys like or people like Cooper, people like Valentina, people like Saipe, they know how to use the resources that are given to them.

via their tanks peeling or or side laning and not allowing them. Like they just they can just they understand. Hey, I have so much more time and and and ability to do things. That's why they that's why these guys carry. Like that's why they're so good. Because they dominate the ladder because they understand how to use those resources. Celestial two, Celestial one, I mean I would see even Eternity support. If you peel for them or if you chase off an off-angle DPS, they're just gonna still fucking sit main and just

Fire down. They're not gonna like push up and learn to cleave with the Invis or lunaclap and call stuff out. So I think it's just also the the the lower skill level of support players not recognizing, hey, my Hulk's doing this. What do I do? Most of them don't know what to do. They just freeze. They just freeze and they don't know what the fuck to do.

CaptainCoach (01:11:32.77)
No. That's the number one problem I have. Okay, so what would your two two's advice be? Is it just better comms or is it you know, how do we how do you get your teammates to like play off of you? If is it about going for the right plays or like we're talking like a ranked, like the typical average tank if Mills are not in here?

Coach Mills (01:11:49.581)
That's why poke slop clears, baby. That's why that's why poke slop clears. This is why this is why I'm telling you, in ranked, it's poke slop overall because I don't give a fuck what my team's doing. I don't need resources. I don't need fucking you know them to push up when I take space. I shoot someone in the head, they fucking die. That's literally it. Just play Poke Slop. Just stop stop trying to play Hulk, man. Stop trying to no, I'm not just fucking

Fauwkz (01:11:50.381)
You're cooked, bro. It's rags, bro.

ShibbyMR (01:12:06.174)
Guaranteed value. No, no. Don't tell him that. Don't tell him that.

Fauwkz (01:12:08.973)
Yo, no, no, no, no, no, no. Cap coach, don't listen no, don't listen to this motherfucker. Don't listen to this motherfucker. You keep on playing Hulk, bro.

CaptainCoach (01:12:13.142)
I'm getting red mills.

Coach Mills (01:12:13.46)
So you hear that? Stop playing tank. Stop playing s play play boke slot. Play Luna. Play fucking Gene Grey. There you go. Yeah. Sorry, Marvin. No, I no I'm just I'm just I No No I'm j I'm j I'm just I'm just honestly coach, you need a duo with the support player. I've been saying this a lot. You need a fucking duo with the support player. Or or yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:12:22.254)
This is why we need back full stacks. Full stacking, please.

Fauwkz (01:12:23.215)
Don't don't don't let don't let them oppress you, Captain Coach, bro. You have sauce on the whole character, bro. That character is too cool.

CaptainCoach (01:12:34.83)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (01:12:36.375)
No, or just a flex DPS player. Find find somebody that could because again, right? Like if you want to do that in ranked, trying to get your ranked teammates to do anything is hard, bro. They they double support all they they don't shoot the magneto right in front of them. Who who you trying to get those monkeys to do anything is n is not a very viable thing. Okay. But like that that's why you do it, right? If you have a Luna that can help you or a Sue that can help you, you fight the Star Lord in the off angle, you the exile, Sioux pulls him, your Luna freezes them, you can kill that guy. Or you have a Star Lord of your own or a Psilock or a Daredevil or something that can path with you.

Then you're cooking, right? But you know, the the the answer's always team play, but convincing your ranked teammates to do anything, and good luck, bro. Right? The the best way is the best way is avoid and then go somewhere else, right? So

ShibbyMR (01:13:14.536)
Yeah. I mean I calm all the time, it doesn't fucking matter.

CaptainCoach (01:13:20.12)
pretended to be another Hulk streamer the other night and it was actually working out. I went like six and one pretending to be Greg Albert instead of myself. I was just c I I was just it's just content. It was yeah no I had my duo every time I got into a lobby say is that Greg Albert and then I had a voice changer on so and and I just say hey what's up dude and every game was better after that because Greg Albert's like the It was working we were winning Mills

Coach Mills (01:13:26.652)
Who what the what what what are you?

Fauwkz (01:13:27.151)
Why are you pretending to be somebody else?

Fauwkz (01:13:39.983)
Feminine number two for Captain Coach.

Coach Mills (01:13:45.717)
Ask yourself why that worked. That's what you really need to figure out. Why wh why are you at a disadvantage if you're yourself, bro? Why how wait, Fox, I wanna talk about your ranked experience because I'm sure it probably drives you crazy more than most people.

Fauwkz (01:13:47.521)
Hey, whatever, whatever, whatever.

CaptainCoach (01:13:50.594)
Ha ha.

ShibbyMR (01:13:51.764)
Seek seek inside, bro.

CaptainCoach (01:13:56.012)
Ha ha.

Fauwkz (01:13:56.761)
Bro, I'm at a disadvantage by myself too, bro.

CaptainCoach (01:14:01.223)
yeah?

CaptainCoach (01:14:07.563)
I don't know about those.

ShibbyMR (01:14:08.638)
Yo Fox, talk about the video that was made on you.

Coach Mills (01:14:11.028)
Wait, that was a video made of Fox?

Fauwkz (01:14:12.813)
Wait, which one? yeah. No, some guy some guy got some guy got pressed cause cause bro, we c we we keep we keep it real, okay. Okay, I I cussed a teammate out and this guy got all pressed that and got chat muted over it. you know, so and then and then he and then he made a TikTok being like, Fox called me the Ar Sler and I'm like, bro, what is this? Twenty twenty? Can I can

CaptainCoach (01:14:13.154)
wait a sec.

CaptainCoach (01:14:27.372)
Happens to the best of us.

Coach Mills (01:14:29.438)
Yeah, a video on you? None of us have yeah. it was that one! yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Fauwkz (01:14:35.585)
Yeah, I was like I was like I was like, whatever, man. A bunch of my friends sent it to me, but like all the comments are are cheering for and then this guy's Yeah, I'm gonna go hate watch Swamp Gaming. I was like, I come watch us win, I guess, you know? Like, we've lost one game the entire freaking time we've been playing, so you know, enjoy watching me win. So No, my my ranked experience, I mean it's fine, bro. Like it ranked as ranked, you know, I I don't queue a ton. Right? I I'm I'm watching VODs the majority of the time, so

CaptainCoach (01:14:36.078)
Coach Mills (01:14:44.453)
Ha ha ha.

Fauwkz (01:15:04.675)
That's what I spend the majority of my time doing. But when I do get unranked, it's like short queue sessions, like two, three, four games here. it's the only way I can I can bear it because it it's just you you go from spectating pro lobbies all day and and watching that play, and because I don't queue a ton, I'm usually hanging around like Celestial Eternity. and so when when you go from that to that, it's just it's just awful, right? And so sometimes the queues are good. Like last season I hit Eternity in forty games.

Right. And then, you know, sometimes the queues are bad and now I've I think I'm at forty games and I'm like top of C three. So it's like you know, it happens, happens. If I if I queue more I'll hit Eternity, but sometimes I just don't want to. Yeah, I mean last patch was so bad for ranked, 'cause the Yeah, so I I just avoided queuing the entire time and now I'm a little washed, so I gotta get back into it. So if I wanna actually hit eternity then then, you know, I'll probably have to dump another hundred games in, but

Coach Mills (01:15:42.184)
Yeah. The classic ranked the ranked experience, yeah. Yeah. It was it was abysmal. I don't understand so

ShibbyMR (01:15:49.812)
I think it the worst. I think it was the worst.

Coach Mills (01:15:58.973)
I as far as the cause I wanted to ask you a question about how rank feels, because I do agree that eight point I thought was like maybe one of the worst ranked experiences. But so far, I mean I I have a jaded you know, experience because I'm only playing Poke slot, but I feel like the it feels better. Like ranked feels better. I think the meta feels better for ranked right now. I think we're in a pretty reasonable spot.

ShibbyMR (01:16:20.018)
What do mean feels better? Like like players, like play like cause I had three games back to back to back where somebody swapped Widow and they just fucking ran my shit. They just ran my shit.

Coach Mills (01:16:23.784)
Well back to back.

CaptainCoach (01:16:24.598)
He he's he's playing Cyclops.

Fauwkz (01:16:24.847)
No, it's just patch. No, no, all it no, Mills, all it was was last patch. There was four to five things that had to get banned for the game. Yeah. So th this this patch it's it's

Coach Mills (01:16:34.888)
Had to bang get banned. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Yeah. Well like ev even when stuff slips through the cracks, it feels like it's easier to deal with. Like, how do I put it? Like when when Daredevil slips through the patch, it feels like the average Daredevil sucks a little bit. A little bit more. A little bit more. When when like when characters slip through, it doesn't suck as bad. And then it characters slip through less, like you talked about. Like they don't like the broken characters don't slip through as much as they did last patch.

ShibbyMR (01:16:35.762)
Yeah. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:16:36.396)
Yep. Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (01:17:01.822)
'Cause it j it just felt like if you double banned twice last patch, you just the fucking game's over. Like you're playing some dumb shit the entire game. Right. Yeah

Fauwkz (01:17:06.755)
Well it's just yeah, it's just not gonna be fun, right? So th th this patch is just Gambit and Wolve gotta go and that's about it, right?

ShibbyMR (01:17:09.022)
Yeah. Yeah, Wolves my perma. I don't I

Coach Mills (01:17:12.914)
No, don't ban Gamby bro. Never ban Gambit. No, no, no. Just no

CaptainCoach (01:17:14.368)
Really? Wolve I've this is the first time I'm hearing this. Wolve is now with the team up that good.

Fauwkz (01:17:20.001)
yeah, 'cause you're 'cause cycause Cyclops is always in, right? So you're never you're never banning that character. If you do ban that character, sure he doesn't gotta go, but it wol wolf with team up his perma grabs on your tank so you don't get to play the game. He decides when he kidnaps you. You don't have a you don't have any say.

Coach Mills (01:17:20.24)
it's in fucking insane. Yeah.

ShibbyMR (01:17:21.95)
Bro, he's he's a fucking helicopter, bro.

ShibbyMR (01:17:30.536)
You don't have fun. And

Coach Mills (01:17:30.738)
Yeah, it it's 'cause that's that spinny top is another form of mobility. So he gets a dash and the fucking spinny top. Like he gets to just close in any gap, basically.

ShibbyMR (01:17:35.976)
Well well also like Well like what tank do you play into Wolf? Like thing's a fake counter. Like you play thing into Wolf. You're getting fucking you're getting shredded. Yeah, you you like I I alt F4 are like I have to rely on my Invis, bro.

Fauwkz (01:17:38.903)
Yeah, so s you You don't play tank, bro. Swap off four DPS, let's go. So Captain Coach Cyclops Arc starts today.

Coach Mills (01:17:41.555)
You you don't play a tank. You stop playing You stop playing tanks. That's what I'm talking about. Let's go let's go. No, he I I feel like okay, I wanna hear your opinion about this, Fox. I feel like there are certain characters that should not be meta and ranked for very long, and they pretty much any kidnap st style of character. Characters like Angela, characters like Wolf, like these characters should have l

CaptainCoach (01:17:45.55)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:17:53.174)
Mm-hmm.

Fauwkz (01:17:55.287)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:18:08.808)
They should be limited in the exposure that they are like S tier or A like A plus tier. Like what do you think about that? Do you think that it doesn't matter? Do you think like you know, like 'cause they're basic they're effectively anti tank characters is what they are and they Yeah. Interesting. Okay.

Fauwkz (01:18:20.631)
Yeah. Angela, I agree with you. Wolf, I don't. Cause 'cause my my my line for my line for the character is is your entire kit one shotting in CC? You probably shouldn't be strong at all, ever. That's all Angela is. She's either one shotting you or she's pinning you in. Okay? And and she's also terrible to interact with because she's flying. Wolverine's a little different because he's one of the hardest DPS in the game.

Which seems like a ha hot take, but there's a reason he always W but there's a reason he has a sub fifty win rate in every single SR, and it's not because he's bad. He's good. The character's strong, but the character is hard. Okay. Now, on tank it's gonna feel miserable whether he's good or bad. But that doesn't mean he's gonna get more value than what your DPS are. Now this patch is a little different because if he has the Cyclops team up, that character is a raid boss. But

Coach Mills (01:18:47.996)
Interesting. That is the very hard that's a very fucking hard take. Interesting.

Fauwkz (01:19:16.417)
Yeah, I I do agree with you. There's some characters that should just never be meta because of either their skill floor being too low or their kit just being so unhealthy. Like Storm is a character that should never see the light of day. Adam's a character that should never see the light of day. Right? Widow, Hawkeye, one shots, get it out, right? Go for it.

Coach Mills (01:19:32.264)
By the way, wh sorry, just read it really quick, quick tip for those of you who are playing in this meta. If you're playing Cyclops, you you can beam the wolf out of grab. Just make sure you do that every time. That's very important. Sorry, just I'm just throwing in a random tip for people. Yeah. Yeah. You need to do that every time.

Fauwkz (01:19:41.879)
Yeah. But because Wolve Wolve is back in meta, right? And Sue is good, the Wolve isn't super, super oppressive. Right? Like Sue was terrible last patch, but she's back this patch because hypermobility and dive is gone. So Sue can exist. So there's a lot of tool tools to deal with the Wolverine. So

CaptainCoach (01:20:01.58)
Hey Mills, can we delay the release of this podcast a few days? I wanna get a couple more rank games in before everybody starts playing Wolf now.

Fauwkz (01:20:07.567)
Yeah, I guess I guess man Yeah

Coach Mills (01:20:07.7)
No, he no, he definitely no, just just No, yeah, pr basically if if you have a Cyclops locker on your team, you should probably ban Wolf Third. Just ban it at the very end, like so that, you know, at the very least they can't unless you're gonna run both, like you should probably ban one.

ShibbyMR (01:20:07.796)
just ban it. Just throw don't even skizo ban. I just start I start screaming into the microphone. I start screaming. Just ban Wolver. I'm

Fauwkz (01:20:25.635)
Bro, I don't I don't risk it banning it third, bro. Then it then then then you like eighty twenty and you always miss.

Coach Mills (01:20:28.84)
But but the but the the cyclops like you ca if if if the if you have the better cyclops like he can heavily contest the wolf because i because of your movement like Captain Coach if if you don't I don't I don't know if any Cyclops has done this for you, but the the the movement that Cyclops does where he pushes himself back, it will also disconnect any Angela grabs, any wolf grabs. So like you can heavily you can heavily basically you're peeling for your your front line is what you're doing. you can also super fuck up

ShibbyMR (01:20:31.204)
Yeah. You got one guy.

Fauwkz (01:20:36.871)
yeah, yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:20:57.288)
Transform Hulks too. You can fuck up their jumps. You can fuck up all of it. Yeah, like like yeah, I I've zo

ShibbyMR (01:21:00.542)
Yeah, I mean

CaptainCoach (01:21:01.39)
I think I had my a sh a shield cast interrupted once 'cause of that.

Coach Mills (01:21:07.056)
Yeah, it's it's it's actually deceptibly a pretty powerful ability to not just use to reposition yourself, but like to fuck up certain people's movement. Yeah.

ShibbyMR (01:21:08.2)
Yeah.

ShibbyMR (01:21:15.25)
Yeah, I saw someone use the laser on like a Doctor Strange that was like flying in the air for the ult. He just pushed him back and like I was like, that's like a Sioux push pretty much. I mean that's the issue, right? Like you just need a good Sioux player and Wolverine is like low-key. At least the ranked ones are kind of obsolete. They just suck. Yeah. Nah, you'd be surprised. Hey, you'd be surprised.

Fauwkz (01:21:15.32)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:21:19.078)
Yeah, yeah. Yep. Yeah it's

Fauwkz (01:21:28.109)
You just need a soup player with a pulse, bro. They don't even be good.

Coach Mills (01:21:30.868)
No, no, Fox. This is fucked up because this is the thing. Like, people keep asking me in the comments to bring out support players. And they they because we say we'll have some tank players on, some DPS players on, and they'll say some crazy shit about supports being like really busted, support kits being like very easy to to utilize. Some of them get a lot of free value. And they'll be like, get us a support main so that they'll defend us. And I'm like, if I get any fucking high ELO support main, they are not defending you.

Like none of them none of you none of them agree with you. Like they they all agree with us. Like

Fauwkz (01:21:58.401)
No, we're not defending you. Yeah. No, the the the the this role this role is me this role is mega busted, bro. It it's it's it's the easy it's the the s the the the pill support needed players need to swallow and I am one of you. It is my most played role. I like tank. I usually prefer to play tank, but I'm I'm typically duoing with tank players, so I'm always playing support. Loki's my most played character. I've got four lords on support. Which isn't a lot, but like I don't play the game a ton. I'm in the client a ton. But

ShibbyMR (01:21:59.592)
No.

ShibbyMR (01:22:06.046)
I d yes, yes, yes, yes.

Coach Mills (01:22:07.058)
That's what I'm talking about.

CaptainCoach (01:22:27.702)
You're gonna play some more now with me. I need a duo to heal. Let's fucking run some.

Fauwkz (01:22:27.842)
No, it's it's

Coach Mills (01:22:30.996)
That sounds great. y'all gonna both crash out on somebody and get I get a double feature video made. Let's fucking go.

Fauwkz (01:22:31.131)
Alright, well we're we'll run it. We'll run it. No. Yeah, no, and so Yeah, so s supports are just i i it's the easiest role, it just is. You have the most utility to do things, and it's the strongest role because you're the one providing resources. So if Captain Coach wants to go fight the Star Lord on the side angle, he can if you help him. But if you don't help him and you're terrible, okay, then he loses that every time. But if you get involved, he wins that every time. And so

CaptainCoach (01:22:36.578)
The other support.

ShibbyMR (01:22:38.312)
Devil video.

Fauwkz (01:22:58.763)
Support players y they just need to use some critical thinking of what where do my resources need to go, position it properly, and and you're gonna carry your games. And so I I I see support players who are like, you know, I I I can't carry enough. There's a reason Cooper Tastic and Saipe win every ranked game they play. Okay. They have like they each have like 90% win rates, and they're playing in one above all 400. Right? So it's not the role, it's you. Right? It's just the reality.

ShibbyMR (01:23:22.932)
Well, I mean y yeah, I mean the biggest

Fauwkz (01:23:25.945)
You can't carry on your character. You can do more damage and get more final blows in your DPS and you can heal at the same time. And you have the only ultimates in the game that matter. Okay? The four DPS ults, your two tank ults, and your two DPS ults, they don't matter at all. Okay? It's just support ults that matter. If you use your support ults well, consistently, you'll hit eternity just off of that. If you just know how to use your support ults, you'll hit eternity just off of that information. Nothing else. If you are just a brain dead.

I'm gonna sit and pocket my tanks M1, but I know when to press Q and when not to press Q, you're gonna hit Eternity. Because most support players don't know how to do that. And then you'll climb even higher when you realize how do I get value out of the rest of my kit? Because you're way too kitted on every single support. I can cancel ultimates on Sue, on Luna, on Mantis, on Cloak. Every single support has cooldowns to do that. And you have a ton of damage potential too. Like go watch these s support streamers. Forky Dog, Valentina, Cooper, right?

Mash and EMEA, Saipe, all they do is they just kill the lobby themselves. It's it's OP. You're you're on the strongest roll and it's the easiest roll. That's why you see DPS players swap off DPS to support and roll swap like a Middle End. Right? So

ShibbyMR (01:24:36.616)
I was about to say. In pro play, in pro play. You have Breddy swap Bready just goes into support and is he just like what he looks amazing. He's just fundament

Fauwkz (01:24:43.811)
Yeah, Gilbert Noodle just Gilbert Noodle's a tank player who's now playing low-key in pro matches. He's like, bruh, this stuff is so easy. Right? So it's yeah, it's like, yeah, sorry, support players. You know, it I love the role. And again, it's gonna remain the strongest role because it has to. because if you weaken the role too much, then nobody's gonna queue support. Yeah, so it's it should be the strongest. It will remain the strongest, but let's just make sure it's like a healthy strong, right? Like no more ultrons and support pools and atoms. More Lunas and

ShibbyMR (01:24:50.45)
Yeah, it

ShibbyMR (01:25:12.286)
Yeah. If you're a s if you're a support player and you just play like the top three BIS supports every season, you'll probably hit Eternity if you have like a brain. That's all you have to do. Like unironically. If you you can pick Rocket right now every time 'cause Phoenix is banned, you'll hit Eternity on Rocket. Like it's not even it's just it's just so easy, man. It's just like the best in slot supports are so good.

Coach Mills (01:25:30.64)
I'm actually in I'm actually enjoying rocket meta in ranked. I don't know. I don't know about y'all, but it's very fun. It feels very fun when I li I just like that I like it when shit dies. Like I like it when you know I I I I you know like it when I I love I I love that when he presses Q like everything fucking explodes. It's great. It's a good time.

Fauwkz (01:25:34.499)
Rockets fly.

What do you think, Coach? I do co I knew Coach would hate it, bro. I like it when shit dies too. I know I I like it when shit dies. Yeah.

ShibbyMR (01:25:42.888)
Coach Aids are rocking, man.

CaptainCoach (01:25:43.776)
I like

ShibbyMR (01:25:50.206)
I like comboing with my DPS. I don't like just fucking throwing an invisalt and just M1ing. Like it's it's whatever.

Fauwkz (01:25:55.309)
Yeah. Combos where things go boom is fun. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:25:55.643)
I I hate I'm so tired of Invis. I still hate Invis. But but okay, here here is one thing that I do have a slight problem with the ranked play. I want to hear what you think about this, Fox and Shibby. I think that not with the ultimates, but with the neutral. I think the Luna White Fox back lines is like insane. Like I think their neutral value, like how much value they just get with non ultimate value is just fucking so hard to overcome for like a ton of different characters. Like you're never beating that back line.

ShibbyMR (01:25:59.625)
Yeah.

ShibbyMR (01:26:21.726)
You don't like getting double charmed? You don't like getting double charmed?

Coach Mills (01:26:23.356)
No. No, I d double charmed into fucking double charmed into frozen, into fucking brawled to death by a goddamn fuck. Melee characters can't play into that backline. They just can't. You don't do it. You don't fucking do anything into that back line.

Fauwkz (01:26:33.034)
yeah, it it's it's it's the strongest backline in the game if you're excluding ults. Yeah. Yeah. In dive meta, Luna White Fox is the best backline you can get, right? and 'cause dive is fast and the alts matter less. and so White Fox gets a little bit more value out of her ult in that type of meta, but and so neutrals is neutral is king in dive meta and white fox terrorizes dive. Right? 'Cause her her ult her neutral is so strong. It's way stronger than Suze, it's way stronger than

Coach Mills (01:26:38.708)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (01:27:02.434)
Everybody's besides Rocket because Rocket builds his ult so fast. So, like it reverted into Rocket Luna, but it was Luna White Fox, and then they buffed Rocket Amp. So, yeah. White Fox Wa White Fox is fire, and she doesn't need buffs either. She just needs the meta to shift. Like, I hope this is what Netties understands with these patch cycles, is these characters that fall out of meta, like White Fox, they don't need help. Other characters need help. Yeah, other characters need help.

ShibbyMR (01:27:13.522)
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how much pro

Coach Mills (01:27:26.426)
Yeah, it's they're gonna buff the fucking character. What are we talking about? They don't they're gonna b

Fauwkz (01:27:30.968)
And then that character comes back in a meta. Co Captain Coach is crashing out, bro. Right? You alright, bro?

ShibbyMR (01:27:31.636)
Then I give her more ammo and all that shit.

Coach Mills (01:27:35.407)
Ha ha ha ha

ShibbyMR (01:27:36.83)
They're gonna give her more ammo. Well, I coach is a Hulk player, so every time he faces a white fox, he's like, jumps in, charm, jumps in, Luna Charm, freeze, boom, boom, boom, he's mini mini form now. He's D mech.

CaptainCoach (01:27:37.091)
I do yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:27:42.476)
Bro, you just like just the fact that you're saying sorry, like you could just press your Q your one Q button, right, is rocket and get to eternity where where I have to just I it's so much work for one kill. It's so much work. And here's the thing too.

Fauwkz (01:27:58.781)
You're still tipping at that, bro? That was like five minutes ago.

Coach Mills (01:27:59.125)
You you fucking da you've been da he's been stunlocked for like the last ten minutes.

ShibbyMR (01:28:03.156)
Wrong. I'm not

CaptainCoach (01:28:06.186)
It if you no, here's the problem with Rocket being meta. I've Rocket should always be like okay, but never good. Like OP. He's like over he's he's like a raid boss. Like he's so overtuned. Because when Rocket gets banned, which is starting to happen now, all these Rocket players, when they have to play something else, they'll it's just auto gloss. You just lose. You just lose the game when they don't get their rocket.

ShibbyMR (01:28:06.803)
I got

Fauwkz (01:28:07.596)
Yo, can can can we get tenacity on my brother?

Coach Mills (01:28:10.534)
Haha.

ShibbyMR (01:28:26.856)
Yeah, no, no, yeah.

Fauwkz (01:28:28.804)
Yo bel neties, keep rockets strong. Four key dogs the best rocket in the world. Keep it strong, please.

ShibbyMR (01:28:35.142)
Forky dogs flying in the fucking like the at the stratosphere, bro, on on rocket.

Fauwkz (01:28:38.99)
Bro, even on Rocket support players who are support players who are like, yo, yo yo, I I can't you can't carry on a character like Rocket. Yes you fucking can. yes you can. that character is OP. If you if you just think critically about how to use your res and Yeah. It's it's disgusting.

ShibbyMR (01:28:47.87)
Forky's undiveable on Rocket. So disgusting.

Coach Mills (01:28:49.428)
Coach Mills (01:28:54.014)
So, so I want to rotate the conversation and I'm gonna ask e a question to each of y'all. we'll go around and answer it. One character buff. It could be any fucking character. One character buff. It could be a massive buff. It could be a rework, whatever. One character nerf. It could be anything you want to the character. What would you want to do? Well, we'll start off with you, Shippy. What you think? What do you think? One one buff, one nerf. Any character in the entire roster, you're you're in charge. You're Guang Guang.

Fauwkz (01:29:17.456)
Any character?

ShibbyMR (01:29:18.384)
So so I'll I'll do the I'll do the how I'll do I'll do the problematic character. I'll Gambit, right? Because that guy's gonna stay permanent forever. The idea I had for the nerf for him, and you can call it a nerf, you can call it a compensation or whatever, was just splitting his effects on his ultimate. So you know how he has to use both cards, right? Or both decks, the E and the F. If you just have to go Q E and that gives you the healing, the move speed, and the burst of healing.

But if you go QF, that gives you the damage boost, the extra little bullets, you know, he has the explosion at the end. And you can keep one thing consistent, right? So keep the move speed consistent across both. So he's still somewhat viable. But the healing goes QE and the damage and the explosion goes QF. That'll raise the skill ceiling of Gambit players. And you can see, like, this gambit now has to QE if they like front load a bunch of damage on the enemy team. Or hey, let's get offensive. There's 30 seconds left on the clock.

Let's try to force ultimates out in their spawn. Let's go QF Gambit Ultimate, force them in and force them to use stuff. I think that's way cooler. I think Gambit right now, the problem with him is his ult is just everything. If you decouple both of them, I think I actually think he becomes more balanced.

Coach Mills (01:30:16.008)
Yep. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:30:22.174)
Yeah, we we talked about that before on the pod and we love it 'cause it it just it it matches the decks, right? He has two decks. He has a damage deck and a healing deck. Yeah. It makes sense, yeah.

ShibbyMR (01:30:28.456)
Yes, it feeds into his like nobody's gonna complain. Nobody's gonna complain. Buff Buff Black Panther, man. That guy fucking sucks. That guy fucking I look at Fox, look at Fox, look, look, look. I I I like it when shit dies. I like it when shit dies. And honestly, Black Is he uninteractive when he's like omega strong?

Coach Mills (01:30:37.474)
shit.

Fauwkz (01:30:42.64)
Are you crazy?

Fauwkz (01:30:47.64)
Do you like it when people play the game?

Coach Mills (01:30:49.446)
No.

Fauwkz (01:30:52.836)
No, he's like the he's besides Storm, he's like the most unhealthy DPS in the game.

ShibbyMR (01:30:58.45)
Yeah, a hundred percent. I a thousand percent agree. you said what I can buff. Yes, fuck yes, dude. Fuck yes. You're telling me, Fox, Fox, time out, time out, time out, time out. You're telling me you wouldn't have a field day watching your boy Days pick up Black Panther, lock the fucking bast and go thing, fing thing, thing, kill like ten people.

Fauwkz (01:31:00.28)
You wanna buff that character.

Coach Mills (01:31:02.62)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (01:31:06.608)
Terrible idea.

Fauwkz (01:31:16.694)
No, because because the the the the th the thing is k and and this this is the thing people need to get. I actually want the game to succeed, okay? So I'm not I'm not this selfish prick that just wants the meta to be good for my team, K. If Black Panther, who already has a 56% win rate in the metal ranks, gets buffed and he has a forty-five percent win rate at celestial and above, you're gonna get him to what fifty one percent at it celestial, let's just say.

Coach Mills (01:31:19.068)
N

Coach Mills (01:31:23.642)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:31:24.846)
Ha ha ha.

ShibbyMR (01:31:34.792)
Yeah yeah yeah.

ShibbyMR (01:31:43.624)
He's gonna hit seventy in like bronze

Fauwkz (01:31:43.916)
You're gonna get him to six you're gonna get him to sixty-four. Okay. And the the the reason that's an issue is not because he's he's now the the greatest character in the game. It's that support players in low elo don't know how to fight back at all. And so they're just gonna die. And it's the most unfun experience they could have is getting one shot like that. Because it feels like they can't do anything. And so those characters need to stay bad because he's already terrorizing.

That Elo. And so you need to even like I'm on the opposite end. You need to keep on nerfing that character. Because he's one of the worst feeling characters to die to as a support player. Right? My IRLs and my casual friends, who are like gold, silver, and plat, they hate that character. Right? It's terrible.

ShibbyMR (01:32:30.643)
he's a quick play terrorizer, bro. That guy that guy just

Coach Mills (01:32:31.846)
Yeah, well w well I mean, but like most of the time he's not really being they're being killed by Smurfs. They're not really being killed by Black Panthers in their Elo.

Fauwkz (01:32:38.353)
Shh but fifty five percent. I think I think that's a little I think that's a little much

Coach Mills (01:32:41.544)
Yeah, it's I mean I I like like like have you seen like an a like I've I'm I'm sure you you coach a lot on stream. I I coach a lot too and like have you seen like an actual plat Black Panther? Like they're fucking like they're they're they're moving in slow fucking motion, bro. Like like they're they're dash it's it's it's dash thirty degree dash, not one eighty dash. Like they're fucking like you know it's like

Fauwkz (01:32:51.499)
No, no.

ShibbyMR (01:32:53.288)
They're missing half their spears. They're using yeah, they're not one eightying.

Fauwkz (01:32:55.79)
Okay.

I I don't know. I have a I have a h I have a hard time believing I have a hard time believing that that e even even if that's right and I I believe you that it's right that f Smurfs make up that entire win rate on why that's so high. Because 55% is really high, guys. Gambit's at 51% in Celestial and above.

Coach Mills (01:33:16.732)
I I I think I think the other part of it is that no one counter swaps in low Elo, like ever. Like if they just s if they just swapped a thing, you know like or whatever.

Fauwkz (01:33:20.7)
Sure, right? But yeah, but like again, right, I I just want the game to be in a healthy state and Black Panther's just like I I would want him to get reworked. Yeah, rework the character, sure, but don't buff him in his current state. You're just gonna make you're just gonna make him extra one shot everybody.

Coach Mills (01:33:29.384)
Wha what about what about re would you reworked? Okay, I see.

ShibbyMR (01:33:32.948)
I would rework him too. I would rework him into a bruiser, man. I would rework him into a bruiser. But I I buff him. But nah

Coach Mills (01:33:35.272)
No, no, duh every dash he puts anti, right? Let's go let's fucking go. A let's let's fucking go. Triple support killer. Let's fucking go.

ShibbyMR (01:33:43.604)
Wait, no, Fox Fox has to answer for answer for some crimes because Fox has fucking blade in A tier, by the way. He has to off he has to answer for war crimes.

Fauwkz (01:33:43.962)
Yeah. Gambit and Black Panther, alright.

Coach Mills (01:33:51.699)
Wait, wait no, no, it's so someone in chat I was I was just my like I I think I had this fucking blade that went one in like eight or one in nine and I was like this bitch is throwing my game and someone commented Fox put him in eight and I was like WHAT? I was like no

Fauwkz (01:34:00.996)
Ha ha.

ShibbyMR (01:34:03.984)
He has crimes to answer for. Those are war crimes. Those are war crimes he has to answer for.

Fauwkz (01:34:04.708)
That's true. It's true. No, no, no, no, no. Okay, guys. It's first of all, first of all, first of all. If Blade players yo yo, for everybody watching Mills's Mills and this podcast, if Blade players run down your games, it's not my fault. Okay. We have we have a 100% win rate on Blade and Scrims. Okay. This character is disgusting. Okay. So so so it's it's not my fault. Okay? You're just bad at the character.

CaptainCoach (01:34:04.75)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (01:34:11.284)
Ha ha.

Coach Mills (01:34:19.06)
No, I'm just kidding, okay. shit. shit.

ShibbyMR (01:34:19.636)
It's Fox, blame Fox.

CaptainCoach (01:34:25.964)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:34:31.1)
You're you heard it here first, the best fucking team right now is a hundred percent win rate, so you might as well just lock it. And every game don't play don't don't fill lock blogblade

CaptainCoach (01:34:35.925)
All right. I

Fauwkz (01:34:35.982)
But that that th like things get things things get banned. We play in good spots, okay? Like we're not stupid about it. We're not playing blade on freaking Holo Dejalia, okay?

ShibbyMR (01:34:36.83)
Play And then s and and then type Fox Nation, hashtag Fox Nation.

Coach Mills (01:34:45.428)
Okay.

CaptainCoach (01:34:45.966)
All right, what what are the the good spots then? Are you able to tell us or is that secret? Okay.

Fauwkz (01:34:48.922)
Front to back maps, yeah, like like convoys where where you would typically play Wolf but Wolve is gone, so you'd play Blade. Yeah.

ShibbyMR (01:34:54.13)
Yeah. Blade is anti tank, bro. That shit's st

Coach Mills (01:34:55.792)
Is is it is he is he just really yeah, really good against tanks, right? Like longer slower engagements?

Fauwkz (01:34:59.224)
He's yeah, he's yeah, but he can also stay on your back line forever, right? So you have options. You can go back line and just keep them occ and just keep them occupied.

ShibbyMR (01:35:04.808)
Block, one second block.

Coach Mills (01:35:05.402)
I'm so I I've my I've always had a fear of Blade like at one point 'cause cause this character has crazy survivability. I mean I'm I'm sure you you you know how hardy it can be to kill. At some point they're gonna break him, right? Like if they keep buffing him like this every fucking patch.

Fauwkz (01:35:20.272)
yeah, he he he's the type of character like Dinosaur, just in the DPS category, where he's fundamentally weak. Like his kit is fundamentally just weak. But you can keep on buffing him to the point where he's really strong. His numbers just need to get s too high. And once his numbers get too high, then he becomes the worst experience in the world to play against. That's what Dinosaur was. But this is just Dinosaur in the in the DPS category, where i his kit isn't strong. He's got a weird

ShibbyMR (01:35:34.641)
Do

Yeah.

Do you do you know what he

Fauwkz (01:35:49.148)
Spin that boops you right? He's got two of the he's got two of them. They anti-heal, but you keep on increasing that anti-heal and you keep on increasing the damage. no, his gun is burst damage. no. No. I see I see my DPS players two tap star lords in side lanes, bro. No, his gun is good.

Coach Mills (01:35:49.925)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like yeah. It's a it's it's if he hasn't and he has no fucking bur he has no burst damage either. Like i i w I mean Okay, well okay, okay, well when it like that. Well it no it it it it wasn't burst when it was released. I don't like I they keep buffing that thing. Like it feels like it's a kit that doesn't work until it's broken. It's i they they keep running into those problems, right. Yeah, right.

ShibbyMR (01:35:51.412)
Anti heel.

CaptainCoach (01:35:56.694)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:36:00.642)
Well

ShibbyMR (01:36:00.97)
If you hit that golden ratio on the gun

That golden range, that golden range is

Fauwkz (01:36:13.838)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but that but that that's a lot of characters, right? That's your Thors, that's your dinosaurs, right? One micro nerf in that character goes from A to to D, right?

ShibbyMR (01:36:18.494)
So

Coach Mills (01:36:21.404)
Right.

ShibbyMR (01:36:21.8)
Well, Fox, Fox will remember this too. He's kind of going on the same trajectory as do you remember when like obviously the first game first came out and everybody was bitching about Captain America and how he like didn't do damage and do all this. And then they just like perma micro buffed him from season one to one point five and then he just kinda took over with Venom. That's like the same shit that's happening to Blade on like a on like a longer scale. They're just they're just micro buffing the shit out of him. He if one or two more

Fauwkz (01:36:41.53)
But little l it's a little less different because Cap's kit was s good back in the day. He just his stats were so bad that he was unplayable. He just needed to get to a competitive point and then he would be good.

Coach Mills (01:36:48.306)
Yeah, he was he was already good.

ShibbyMR (01:36:51.005)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:36:55.126)
It it's just funny like to what Chibi's saying. They they really have it's just been it's been plus one, plus one to his damage, plus one to his sword, and then they finally for this patch, they gave him a plus two, and now he's good. It's funny. I actually so I have a mod for for my stream chat. His name is Make Blade Great Again, and ever since eight point five, he changed his name to Blade Finally Great. So it's official.

ShibbyMR (01:36:55.39)
But then he took over.

ShibbyMR (01:37:01.2)
It's bad. It's dude. One more.

Fauwkz (01:37:01.251)
yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Fauwkz (01:37:06.784)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Fauwkz (01:37:15.232)
Mm.

Coach Mills (01:37:18.452)
How it's it's a we fin we finally made it. It's not fun to play

Fauwkz (01:37:20.642)
There you go, there you go.

ShibbyMR (01:37:21.278)
Blade blade's not blade's not fun to play against if you're a tank player because he just hits you with anti heal and he just fuck

CaptainCoach (01:37:25.71)
I don't think he's too bad, but yeah, like I definitely don't take fights with him, really.

ShibbyMR (01:37:29.618)
Yeah, you don't like it because then you're healing and like you're you it throws off your equilibrium as a tank player because you're used to getting healed.

Fauwkz (01:37:33.914)
Who wants who wants to go nest next in the one character nerf one character buff though?

Coach Mills (01:37:36.832)
I'm wanna s I wanna hear I'm wanna hear you have to take fo Fox. What do you what do you have to what do you what's your take? Buffnerf.

Fauwkz (01:37:40.944)
one care I mean the one character okay, my one character nerf would be just be Mantis. I would just rework her and what I would what I would do with her is this is I would make her her her ally damage boost just speed, right? Just speed and make it like the Jeff speed level strength, okay? And then keep it single target. and then I would change her her self damage boost to a sustainability.

Coach Mills (01:37:47.794)
Well, you're right. Yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:37:59.966)
Okay.

Fauwkz (01:38:10.562)
Right? To where she could sustain herself, where like Luna's clapping you, something like that, where it's an actual self-heal over time just on herself. Right? That would make her healthy in a 2-2-2 environment. because she's not damage boosting somebody else, she's speed boosting somebody else, which would make her better in dive and worse with triple support. And then the self-heal would make it so that she could potentially live against dive without just having to hit the sleep.

Coach Mills (01:38:22.206)
Okay.

Fauwkz (01:38:40.632)
Right? And so she would be turned kind of more like Luna, but instead of the snowflake, she has speed. Right? And so if you think about her her her her self-damage boost and you change that to a a Luna type clap ability, in terms of not like like an actual Luna clap, but like the healing of a Luna clap on herself, right?

Coach Mills (01:39:00.498)
And w would you would you increase her overall healing like a as to to make it so she's viable in double support?

Fauwkz (01:39:05.44)
You could ref you could restructure the way it works where it's front loaded and then has a little fall-off, right? And so you could make it so it's like like 50 burst, right? 50 or 60 burst, 55 burst or something, and then it has like 20 heal over time for the duration of it, right? I think that would be like a a good way to restructure it. But even that might be but then you would have to give her more leaves, and I would take away the passive of

Coach Mills (01:39:17.682)
Mm, okay.

Fauwkz (01:39:32.504)
Leaves get headshots and I would make it more like a reload thing where you have eight of them. Right? You have eight leaves that you can give out. You just have eight leaves and it's like a torch resource where it comes back after you don't use them for a significant period of time. So you don't feel like you're having to do that. And that way it it increases the skill cap of the character because you have to make decisions on who's getting the healing and who's not, right? And who or who's getting the speed and who's getting the healing, right? And so I think that would be a really healthy rework for the character.

CaptainCoach (01:39:37.442)
Were you

ShibbyMR (01:39:37.486)
Mm. You just have eight leaves. You just have eight leaves and then you just burn

CaptainCoach (01:39:43.138)
Okay.

CaptainCoach (01:39:49.24)
Yeah.

ShibbyMR (01:39:55.753)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:39:55.798)
I actually really like that. So

CaptainCoach (01:40:01.479)
No, that's a great idea.

Fauwkz (01:40:01.604)
Because it would give her her own niche at single target speed. Again, single target stuff is good for supports. That's why Luna and Mant Luna is healthy, because all of her stuff is single target, right? and so single target speed, single target damage, single target self heal, and she's a good character. You can keep her ultimate the way it is, and you can keep her damage the way it is, and she's good. Right? So that's what I would do for for like a nerf, quote unquote, but I think that's probably more like a buff.

Coach Mills (01:40:25.94)
Okay.

ShibbyMR (01:40:29.693)
Rework.

Fauwkz (01:40:31.742)
to her as a as a character because then she also becomes viable for lower ELO people too. and you don't only have to play her in triple support with like Ultron. and then like a character I'd like buffed.

Coach Mills (01:40:36.402)
Right. It'd be fun. It'd be fun too. Yeah.

ShibbyMR (01:40:44.286)
Panther.

Coach Mills (01:40:45.256)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:40:46.382)
Mm-hmm.

Fauwkz (01:40:46.898)
No, what's the character I want buff?

ShibbyMR (01:40:50.782)
Mr. Fantastic?

Coach Mills (01:40:50.932)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:40:52.46)
That's mine. You can't steal it.

ShibbyMR (01:40:54.596)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (01:40:54.848)
No, I mean I think I'm probably gonna piss people off with this one. I I want Daredevil to get buffed.

Coach Mills (01:41:01.41)
no, fuck Wait, he's good. Wait, he's scared though right now. You just want him to bit better?

CaptainCoach (01:41:01.932)
What?

ShibbyMR (01:41:03.373)
he's low key fine though, no? I feel like

CaptainCoach (01:41:04.93)
He's still he's like he's

Fauwkz (01:41:07.628)
Yeah, but I but but I want dive to be the strongest version of playstyle in the game and it can't unless you have a good DPS to play it with. And right now he's the only one. So I would Yeah, but Dive is good for the game. Yeah, dive is good because again, Dive is going to be good at high ELO and bad at low ELO inherently. And so Dive being good for and he's also one of the hardest characters in the game to play. So like even tier one Daredevils are bad at him.

CaptainCoach (01:41:16.898)
But I thought You said you cared about the health of the game though.

Coach Mills (01:41:16.905)
But

CaptainCoach (01:41:21.559)
You think so?

Fauwkz (01:41:35.556)
There's a lot of Tier 1 Daredevils that are just selecting the character and are terrible at that thing. Okay. So he is very, very, very difficult. Yeah, so he's So he's very difficult to play, right? His his his skill ceiling is high, his skill floor is high, right? And if for dive to be viable, he needs to be good. Right? it's either that or black cat, but I think he's the healthier version of Black Cat. Like they killed her so fast because of what she does, and so

CaptainCoach (01:41:42.86)
When they do that deflect, it's like they're slower.

ShibbyMR (01:41:43.486)
They're just they're just face rolling the keyboard.

Fauwkz (01:42:05.644)
I want dive to be good, so I would just say Daredevil or just add another character that could that can do something similar to Daredevil that can dive. Right? I think I think the way they nerfed him was fine, except for the dash range. I like that they nerfed Daredevil, but changing that dash range incentivizes bad Daredevils. It d and hurts good ones. So I don't like the the way they nerfed that. So I would just revert that change, and I think the nerfs are fine. Like I don't I want I don't want I don't want to

Coach Mills (01:42:27.796)
Interesting.

CaptainCoach (01:42:32.398)
Is that just 'cause

Fauwkz (01:42:34.416)
turn this character into God, right? But I want him to be a little stronger than he is right now.

CaptainCoach (01:42:39.062)
Is that just like encouraging them not to use it as like an escape as much?

Fauwkz (01:42:41.772)
It's encouraging people to shift in instead of shift out, right? Because of how l like the the way you would previously play Daredevil is you would side lane with your Captain America, and then you would F in with your throw, and then you would get your Fury back. You'd go for another F turn, you'd get your Fury back. Then you would hit one melee weave and get another turn with your E, and then you'd still have no Fury, and then you could make a decision to you do you want to hit a fourth E combo or do you want to leave?

Right? And that's what your shift should be used for. But instead now you're incentivizing Daredevils to just shift in, right? And they max get three of the ease. So you should your goal should be get four of those if you have the sustain for it. Or five because you're def you can deflect it and keep on going. Right? which seems like a lot, and it is a lot, but again, yeah he's available to kill that entire duration. Like and it's not like supports don't have the tools to deal with them, right? Like

Coach Mills (01:43:38.567)
It it's

Fauwkz (01:43:38.978)
You see you see him get played into Luna Rocket. Valentina pieced up one of the best daredevils in the world in self. I guess like four and seven in our match against a tons of thieves, so

Coach Mills (01:43:47.316)
But it is it's interesting 'cause earlier you were talked about how it's too easy to ban out dive. Would you not want like buffs to like black cat?

Fauwkz (01:43:54.264)
No, I w yeah, I would want buffs to Black Cat, but I think Black Cat's more h unhealthy than Daredevil. I think Daredevil's a healthy version of a dive. Flex DPS. And I think Black Cat's Well, because because Black Cat one shots you too fast. Her time to kill is way too fast. And she has Yeah. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:44:03.964)
I just love I thought that was the healthy version, but yeah, I do agree, yeah.

Well right, no, no, no. I no I'm I'm I'm in my mind I'm just thinking fucking Genji from Overwatch. How like Daredevil is the balanced version of a fucking dive character. Even though he's fucking Thanos, yeah.

ShibbyMR (01:44:16.349)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (01:44:17.508)
Yeah, well yeah, dare well Black Cat's issue is she she one-shots you too fast and she has too many immortality frames. It's just too too long that you can't interact with the character. Right? Daredevil, the entire time he's killing you, you can kill him back. So he he's just effective at what he does. Right? So so I yeah, I would like them to add another one, right? So so like I don't know, n s yeah, like like Nightcrawler, like if Nightcrawler's a DPS and not a strategist, I think he's gonna be a strategist, but if he's a if he's a DPS

Coach Mills (01:44:24.902)
Right, right, right, right. Which is the only thing yeah.

ShibbyMR (01:44:26.59)
She's too slippery, which is the issue.

Coach Mills (01:44:35.815)
Okay. Interesting.

CaptainCoach (01:44:39.307)
Another dive hero?

Fauwkz (01:44:47.097)
And he's a dive DPS, I think that'll be sick. Like if he can like teleport to allies or something. Or or like mark enemies and then teleport onto them. Something like that. I think that'd be fire.

Coach Mills (01:44:58.228)
All what do you think, Captain Coach? What's a what's what's your two? Buffner f

CaptainCoach (01:44:58.542)
Yeah. Well the reason I was I was making a face at the mantis change way earlier on is because I I did a mantis to celestial challenge and it was the fastest I've ever I've ever done a challenge. Yeah, like I I think I had over 70% win rate and it was like the first time. But I I do like your proposed changes. I would say Yeah. Well I would that's a quick side note. I I would always just like dive with her alt too and just damage buff everybody. Like I so

Fauwkz (01:45:09.924)
No, the character is disgustingly OP. yeah.

ShibbyMR (01:45:12.958)
If you can aim, if you can aim.

Fauwkz (01:45:17.594)
Support's so hard, bro.

CaptainCoach (01:45:26.424)
But like, yeah, I would say like removing the headshot thing does kind of take away a lot of the fun of it. And and to me, that's like a pretty big thing. It's just like if you're gonna make something OP, you might as well make them fun to play. So, okay, so for for mine, I wanna nerf Loki. And I wanna I wanna nerf yeah, yeah. I wanna nerf the way his alt works to where it's not just always copying a support alt. I want him to be encouraged to actually like take other alts. It's something we've talked about before because I I think it also it

Coach Mills (01:45:43.621)
Ha ha ha.

Fauwkz (01:45:55.564)
It'll never be the case. We'll never do it. You

CaptainCoach (01:45:57.247)
Nah. Maybe

ShibbyMR (01:45:57.716)
Bro, you want Echo Walt? Like where you have to build it? You have just Echo Walt? That's pretty much what it is.

Coach Mills (01:46:00.289)
Or or when when you copy someone's ultimate you can't copy it again, it's like blacked out.

CaptainCoach (01:46:03.894)
Yeah, that's kind of what I want, like Silas from Lol. Right.

ShibbyMR (01:46:06.366)
Silas, Silas, yeah.

Fauwkz (01:46:07.508)
He'll never get he'll never get played. If you're gonna play two supports, you need to have two support alts.

CaptainCoach (01:46:10.112)
Well isn't there always just a way you could

What if his alt was a third of the cooldown and like weak or or weaker for certain alts? Like there's always a way to tune something, right? Like make it, you know. But you know, some something where it's not just like I it'd be cool that for him to have more choices as a hero. And I also think he it kind of exposes just I mean, we've we've already touched on a lot, just like how broken supports our alts are. And I kinda wanna see him move away from that. So I think Loki would be one of the one of the steps in doing that. 'cause he's always just gonna double whatever the best alt is, right? so that that'd be my nerve.

Fauwkz (01:46:20.527)
Mm-hmm.

Fauwkz (01:46:41.562)
But don't you go over. yeah, I was like, don't you think Loki's a a a pretty healthy version of the cause he's really weak to dive because he can't fight back. He can just live with lamps, right? But he's very good in front to back and group comps. So he has he has major weaknesses. But you're right, his alt is structured in a way to where if you get a ga character like Gambit or the the most busted next new support.

CaptainCoach (01:46:43.47)
Yeah, did you guys wanna say I'm I'm no go ahead, go ahead. I I'm open to hear why that's

Fauwkz (01:47:09.284)
He's always going to be the ideal pair because then you get two of them, right? So, but I also think that's kind of a cool niche because he's also very hard. So it's not like he's easy. He also has weaknesses, and he he has a comp niche, besides the fact that when you add a busted support in the game, he is the ideal pair, because then you have two busted supports in the game.

CaptainCoach (01:47:29.366)
Yeah, that's to me I'm not really too worried about like whatever how he functions in the meta. I just you know, to me it's just what he's way be way more interesting of a of a character. And that's really kind of where it is for me. I just think he'd be more interesting. And I yeah, I I just think like as you move forward, I mean, yeah, whatever he's good and bad in the dive, high skill ceiling, like you you can I mean, it doesn't wouldn't that increase his ceiling technically though? Yeah, more choice. More choices to me is always like the better option for for a play. Like we can talk about

Fauwkz (01:47:58.244)
Sometimes less more.

Coach Mills (01:47:59.037)
Yeah, all right, all right, hear me out. Pull pull off a backstab a limb and you get your ult immediately. How about that? That sounds sick. Let's fucking go. Yeah just fucking instant ultimate like ten seconds into a fight. Like it that'd be insane.

ShibbyMR (01:48:04.306)
Ha ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (01:48:04.898)
That that would be that that'd be crazy.

Fauwkz (01:48:05.836)
Let's go! Triple clone backstab. When I'm invisible, all my clones are invisible. Boom! One tap.

CaptainCoach (01:48:18.712)
That would be cool though if the they actually played into the the back step mechanic too and and actually had some

Coach Mills (01:48:23.099)
Right, yeah.

Fauwkz (01:48:24.88)
I don't think we I don't think we wanna see what ranked players would do with that.

Coach Mills (01:48:27.508)
No y your Loki would troll his first five lives trying to get his fucking ultimate that way.

ShibbyMR (01:48:28.073)
CaptainCoach (01:48:28.352)
Yeah.

ShibbyMR (01:48:32.574)
Dude camp spawn doors and just like guys, guys, I got this. Don't worry.

CaptainCoach (01:48:34.646)
Right.

Fauwkz (01:48:36.826)
Yeah, they're just slightly looking the wrong way, insta one tapped.

CaptainCoach (01:48:37.207)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:48:39.632)
Yeah, and so get killed.

CaptainCoach (01:48:41.088)
Yeah, it it is the like it is kinda unfortunate just how you know, big like the game is built around just those those support alts. So it's like it probably wouldn't work, but for

ShibbyMR (01:48:49.576)
You would have to change his ult fundamentally. Like it could just can't be a copy anymore. Turn him into a fucking frost giant or some shit. I don't know. And make him heal. Like that's w like big I don't know. Like you can't make him copy and then 'cause there's what situation I remember like, damn. I wish my Loki copied my punisher all here. It's like, no, you fucking want the rocket ultimate or the fucking Luna ultimate or the atom ultimate.

CaptainCoach (01:48:57.784)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (01:49:10.122)
Yeah. Yeah. So for yeah, I already said it, Mr. Fantastic. I would love to see him get some sort of like guaranteed C C that people could actually combo off of. So so like I I would think some kind of root or either root root or like some

Coach Mills (01:49:26.94)
Like a like a fucking hammer hand that bang them into the ground or some shit like that.

ShibbyMR (01:49:30.45)
Or just grabs you like that like

CaptainCoach (01:49:31.5)
like grabs their legs or maybe some kind of silence for like whatever he wraps around your head and you can't use abilities or something like that where he gets like guaranteed value point and click and see how viable that would make him and so he's and and maybe it it's some s for mobility, maybe it could be like a team up to where he's got some like really hard utility, not just like annoying displacement that people can't really something that something that people could actually use to combo things with and like play off of.

ShibbyMR (01:49:59.678)
Just just throw that guy in the fucking tank roll and call it a day. Ned he's uniron. I've pissed I've

CaptainCoach (01:50:02.808)
Ha ha ha.

Fauwkz (01:50:03.908)
What do you think what do you what do you think about that coach as as a tank player? What what do you think about like changing or I against the the entire panel of what do you guys think about like changing the roles of characters? Do you get do you guys think that's a bad idea or a good idea?

Coach Mills (01:50:15.24)
I love it. I fucking love it. No, I think it's a great I think it's a great idea. Make Ultron a fucking tank. Let's fucking go, please.

ShibbyMR (01:50:15.294)
Think you I think if it's worth it, I love it. No, no, no. It's cool. It's cool. Wow. Alright.

Fauwkz (01:50:22.764)
Okay, well that's y the support has the least amount of character

CaptainCoach (01:50:23.341)
Yeah, I

Coach Mills (01:50:26.848)
Yeah, yeah, make Mantis a fucking DPS, let's go

ShibbyMR (01:50:27.56)
Well like even even

I mean, even with like the DPS category, right? You have the subcategories of like you have hit scan duelists, you have projectile duelists, you've got dive. But like I think it'd be cool if they like made Black Panther instead of like a one shot machine, they made him like a brawl duelist where he kind of gets overhealth like magic and like you're incentivized to hit marks to get bonus health and all that. I like I hate bonus health as a mechanic. There's so much fucking bonus health in the game and it's disgusting. But like there are certain avenues where you could make it cool, and I think

Yeah, I've pissed off fantastic players before. I've made videos on this. Just throw in the fucking tank roll. Like you're just LARPing as a fucking DPS and like I'm watching a fantastic. I'm trying to play the game and he's like, fucking doing this shit. I'm like, you're fucking used. Get out of here, man. Like, just pick a real DPS. I don't know. It's throw him in the tank roll. And I think he'd be infinitely better.

Coach Mills (01:51:04.371)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (01:51:11.064)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (01:51:18.67)
So what do you give more health?

ShibbyMR (01:51:21.086)
Give him more health, throw a little bit more CC, reduce his damage, and like he just becomes an introductory tank, right?

Fauwkz (01:51:21.722)
Well I think the fact that it is

Coach Mills (01:51:25.32)
The I I've thought I've thought for a w go on, go

Fauwkz (01:51:25.752)
Yeah, you if you if it if you just change his right click, his shift is is fundamentally a tank ability. DPS don't have those types of abilities where you you can just be immortal for two seconds. That's that's already more tankiness than Thor inherently. Right? Yeah. And so like he would fit tank ri he would be a very smooth transition into tank. It's something I think Neddy should do, because he would be he would be like your Mag Emma strange alternative, right?

Coach Mills (01:51:37.052)
Right, yeah. Then you're no yeah, he legit he is like, yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:51:39.628)
Yeah. No, he is. He is tankier.

ShibbyMR (01:51:40.517)
Ha ha.

Coach Mills (01:51:55.017)
I'm not gonna lie, I think Blade could easily be a tank too. They could easily make Blade a tank. I don't know. You already think he's A tier, but I I think the character's terrible. So I I like to see him as useful somewhere. Well, it it's kinda like his survivability is already good. Like that's the thing that that has been good. Just like double down on that. Give him like five hundred HP and he's a fucking tank. Like just as is.

ShibbyMR (01:51:59.519)
May make widow Anna.

Fauwkz (01:52:04.528)
Run it run into the run into the cues of the good blade players.

ShibbyMR (01:52:06.516)
Tro throw

Fauwkz (01:52:16.408)
Mills, what you don't understand is all the blade players are already one above all. They already skipped you over. You you y y you gotta you gotta rank up and get into their ELO. That's how good this character is.

Coach Mills (01:52:21.454)
fuck that I gotta get them. I gotta get to them. I gotta I gotta rank up to them so then they can throw my fucking games. Let's go. No, that that that's that's what I my buff and nerf. my buff and nerf. nerf all nerf all brawl characters, because they're OP buff poke characters. no I'm just gonna I'm I'm kidding. so

CaptainCoach (01:52:22.518)
Mm-hmm.

ShibbyMR (01:52:22.77)
Yeah, the good ones are gone.

CaptainCoach (01:52:28.942)
Mill Mill swapped a poke at the wrong time. He's

Fauwkz (01:52:32.848)
Wait till the blade two taps you on the angle, brother.

ShibbyMR (01:52:43.736)
yeah. Heresy, heresy. Heresy. Heresy.

CaptainCoach (01:52:44.226)
That's just his stream all the time by the way, just rage baits. That's what he's turned into.

Coach Mills (01:52:45.428)
Yeah, I I literally I no I I I'm I I'm I'm perm I'm permalping as a hit scan player. Yeah, yeah. No, I I basically decided to be the opposite of light, like the entire stream. anyways, so

Fauwkz (01:52:46.434)
Is that what is that is that is that his is that his niche? Mine is mine is hating other regions and controller players and his is poke needs to be the best? Gotcha.

Fauwkz (01:53:00.516)
Dude, I don't get the light I don't get light shtick about the the these these hit scan characters are so OP. I don't get it. I don't get it, bro. That they're r they're really not.

ShibbyMR (01:53:06.288)
Flankerly blessed, bro. Flankerly blessed or whatever that shit is.

Coach Mills (01:53:09.458)
No, no, I look I can I can explain it for you, and I'm not talking about pro play just for ranked play. His problem is like like if you looked at Overwatch, like hit scan like hit scans typically had a weakness in close range. Like, you know, when when a melee character routed properly and like the genji was on top of you, they're gonna kill you if you're Widowmaker, right? But his problem is every melee character or every every sniper character has like a stun or a dodge or a

Fauwkz (01:53:13.509)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:53:36.552)
Great movement ability or some way to gain HP. Like Gene Gray had a teleport, a stun, a flight, ways to gain HP. Like it's sh it's like the kit like instead of there being very clear weaknesses and strengths, like his argument is that they're the they have things that cover up all their weaknesses, basically. They're too effective from like point blank range, is is his argument. That's that I'm that's that's just the argument that he makes. Cause like 'cause like like imagine if w like Widowmaker and Overwatch was insane, but like imagine if you gave that character a stun and a kick that like

ShibbyMR (01:54:00.434)
Yeah, but if Marvel rivals

Coach Mills (01:54:06.45)
Like it would just be like stupid.

Fauwkz (01:54:07.216)
Yeah, but I I I just don't think that's true. If if you if I get on you as Daredevil and you're and you're a hit scan, the only way you live is if you get support.

Coach Mills (01:54:13.574)
No, no, no, no. Like yeah, well I I agree, but like he his argument is like they should literally just die. Like instantly. I mean they should just die. Well i if they're at Well no like I the more I play hit scan, like I the more I kinda understand what he's saying is because like there's so many bad dive players that I kill them before they're even remotely in my range to ever threaten me in any way. Like I see them walking around the corner. No, I know that, but this is C1 and they're bad. Like they're bad everywhere. Always like they don't get good.

ShibbyMR (01:54:20.646)
Well, I mean rivals

Fauwkz (01:54:21.136)
Nah, that's see, that doesn't seem like a good idea.

Fauwkz (01:54:34.948)
But they're bad.

ShibbyMR (01:54:39.176)
See them walking around the corner.

Fauwkz (01:54:41.552)
There's there's there's no good players until you get to like one above all two hundred, bro. There's the we're all terrible.

Coach Mills (01:54:43.94)
Like well that that but that but that's the thing, is that's what he's talking about, is rank. He's not talking about like pro play and coordination and blah blah

CaptainCoach (01:54:44.79)
huh.

Fauwkz (01:54:51.428)
Coach, let's go s Q Snight Mills tonight.

Coach Mills (01:54:53.524)
Why I'm running it down on Thor as a special except no I was kidding. Yeah.

ShibbyMR (01:54:53.954)
Ha ha ha.

CaptainCoach (01:54:54.092)
Yo, I'm so down. I'm banning Cyclops, bro.

ShibbyMR (01:55:01.074)
No, just play Blade. When you get Fox on your team say Hawkstag

CaptainCoach (01:55:01.213)
huh.

Coach Mills (01:55:03.66)
yeah, I'll I'll run it down. I'll run it down. No, no. No, I I you got when you LARP as the hit skin player, you have to be super egotistical. You have to flame your team. anyways, let me give you my real let me give you my real ex responses for this. So like I'm gonna kinda cheat. So this one I I don't think you're gonna agree with Fox, but I would like Tank Pool to get a small buff to his sword and sword ult. Because I think it's just dog shit. Both of them are dog shit. I mean, the the the character is basically gun. Like, that's all he does. And so like

ShibbyMR (01:55:05.896)
Run it out on blade. Run it out on blade.

ShibbyMR (01:55:14.1)
You have to take every challenge.

ShibbyMR (01:55:28.413)
I like sort of

Yeah.

Fauwkz (01:55:32.292)
Not right now. He's actually pretty heavy sword right now. Yeah. That that's that's that that's how pro teams are using him, is is you're is is even though you might upgrade the sword the guns a little bit earlier than you would on the others, you you you're you're really killing like you're playing him as kind of a second a pseudo dive tank. And you'll just bounce on the Jeffs.

Coach Mills (01:55:34.739)
you think so? tank tank one? He's he's actually

Coach Mills (01:55:41.652)
'Cause

Coach Mills (01:55:47.014)
I I w I want I wanna give I want a legitimate reason to like never I I just want options on the character. It just feels like he's been linear for too long. That that's that's my first thing. And the second one Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fauwkz (01:55:57.346)
Just like always gun ulting, you mean? So you want the you want the you want the you want okay, okay. So you want the the it's not even the swords, you just want the sword alt to be viable. Yeah, okay, okay.

ShibbyMR (01:56:00.167)
All gun out gone up the support.

Coach Mills (01:56:07.26)
Right, yeah. And like well also like you get benefit of like upgrading the gun because it does level up your kit. So I feel like there should be how do I put it? It it's it should be more reasonable for you to upgrade swords like as your very first upgrade.

ShibbyMR (01:56:23.252)
You should get rewarded more for melee hits as like a e like XP wise. I can I can fuck with that.

Fauwkz (01:56:24.051)
okay. I think it I think it's too hard because you need the two you need the two in investments into it. You need the dash too. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:56:24.922)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:56:30.502)
Right, right, exactly, yeah. I like I don't know exactly how they would do it, but it it just it just kinda feels like like I'm always incentivized to like yeah. That that that would be what I would do. I don't know exactly what it'd look like, but I I would like a little compensation there. And then for Thor, I just want I want his ultimate to be at least a little bit better. Like I know that that I'm I'm giving two buffs, but like can I cancel my fucking ult? Can I make it so that people don't have movement abilities if they're underneath me? One of the two I don't fucking know.

Fauwkz (01:56:36.622)
Yeah. I like it.

Coach Mills (01:56:59.848)
as far as nerfs are concerned, man, I I just had a fucking nerf that I wanted to give, but like I I just like completely lost it. Completely fucking lost it.

Fauwkz (01:57:09.316)
Tankpool's a fire character that should be strong.

ShibbyMR (01:57:09.426)
What if they gave Thor what if they gave Thor all like a like a precision strike thing where like if you hit within a circle like a certain circle meter, he does like way more damage, right? So like it may be insane.

Fauwkz (01:57:18.776)
Dude, I just want them.

Coach Mills (01:57:18.802)
I mean, I would fucking love that. Like I I can't even combo this shit in a Grudel and people just live. Like they just shrug that shit off.

ShibbyMR (01:57:23.88)
People live through Groot. If you Groot Thoralt, they just don't die.

Fauwkz (01:57:24.556)
Dude, I just I just want them to rework Thor bro. I just want them to rework Thor. The character's so the character's so cool bro and he's just so terrible.

Coach Mills (01:57:28.263)
No, I I

He's he's but but he no but he's he's he's like the opposite of No no no no no. Fuck yo no no the ca that's that's my that's like like mo the character I have the most hours on, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:57:35.042)
Don't tell don't tell Coach Mills you want to rework his hero. I've I've tried.

Fauwkz (01:57:38.5)
Wait, are you a Thor player?

Fauwkz (01:57:43.394)
I didn't know that. shoot. I've d d dude, I've only seen you play like whenever I've seen you in ranked, you're always on a hit scan.

ShibbyMR (01:57:44.552)
But do you have fun playing him? They but Mills, think about all the times you play him and you have fun, bro? Like do you have legit fun?

CaptainCoach (01:57:45.079)
Coach Mills (01:57:50.004)
I na you know, one of my dog one of my first dogs was named Thor. That's like like not even a cap. Yeah, like legit. I had a I had a golden lab. It was named Thor.

CaptainCoach (01:57:54.414)
Coach Mills loves Thor more than his own children. Jesus.

Fauwkz (01:57:54.636)
Okay.

CaptainCoach (01:58:02.024)
really?

Fauwkz (01:58:02.928)
No, but wouldn't you be happy if you got reworks to be like a little bit more viable?

Coach Mills (01:58:08.02)
Well well, my my problem is so Thor is in my opinion, he's one of the most broken characters underneath C C three. Because he gets to do whatever he wants and he's just a fad DPS that kills everything. and like the my problem is the his kit is ultimate free. Like if you I I kinda classify main tanks and off tanks a little bit differently than some people. I think that off tank is freedom. Like like you don't have any forced responsibilities or playstyle. And if I think of like that, like

Thor is the most true off tank that exists because he literally can do whatever the fuck he wants at any given time. You could peel, you could dive, you could poke, you could brawl, whatever whatever you want to do. I just don't think you can ever make that character pro viable. Because if you make him viable, he's gonna be too strong, or you have to make him sacrifice some of that freedom. Like, you right. So, like, I would prefer the freedom. Like, give me the freedom, and like I'm gonna be running down games and like

Fauwkz (01:58:54.832)
Yeah, it's just Devil Dino two point Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:59:02.834)
you know, celestial or below. But but like, you know, I don't my my problem is just like the hero f so sorry, to to to kind of recap, I don't think this character will ever be viable in pro play, nor should he, but let's give me like my hero fantasy a little bit more. And my the ultimate right now is no f there's no hero fantasy. And like this ultimate that does fucking nothing, basically. Like it literally does nothing.

Fauwkz (01:59:22.702)
No bueno.

ShibbyMR (01:59:25.202)
Mm-hmm. It looks grandiose and it just it just like sucks. Or or a rocket, or a rocket, or a rocket. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:59:30.03)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (01:59:30.3)
Yeah, it's actually just comp Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah, I mean and

Fauwkz (01:59:30.832)
Yeah, but you can combo with the Luna in one tap.

Fauwkz (01:59:35.632)
We'll rock it.

Fauwkz (01:59:39.662)
And all you gotta do is press a button. You see how much you see how much Coach cap Captain Coach has to do on Hulk to kick kills with Hulk, bro? He's gotta juggle somebody, he's gotta hit the exile, he's gotta hit two claps.

Coach Mills (01:59:43.108)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (01:59:45.966)
Mm-hmm.

It's like I I'm con conducting the symphony, you're playing a little recorder, hot cross buns.

Coach Mills (01:59:50.0)
Fauwkz (01:59:53.168)
Trying to pitch you guys against each other.

Coach Mills (01:59:55.763)
I can I c yeah, I I I just had to lock support and then I I I think that we should nerf Groot's ult charge generation. That's the my nerf. that that motherfucker builds ult way too quickly for how how strong that ult is. I mean it's like like I I'm gonna bitch about Thor ult again, but like look at the com the power discrepancy between Groot old and Thor ult and look at the charge rate. Like Groot is charging it, Thor's at like 60%, and Groot has his ult.

CaptainCoach (01:59:56.814)
first door.

Fauwkz (02:00:06.784)
Mm. Yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:00:07.676)
It's good it's a good one.

Fauwkz (02:00:20.506)
Do you know what do you know what the numbers are? What groot groups what, thirty three hundred? Do you know what Thors is?

Coach Mills (02:00:24.308)
I don't know what the actual numbers are, but he also like outputs a lot more consistent damage, so I don't know if the numbers are like

ShibbyMR (02:00:24.404)
Twenty eight hundred. I thought whoa.

Fauwkz (02:00:30.574)
Yeah, 'cause Groot's building it like every fight right now. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:00:32.592)
Yeah, yeah, like stupid fast and yeah, Thor is just it just feels slow.

Fauwkz (02:00:35.482)
Yeah. I don't know what I don't know what the numbers are, but I I think Groots is like around thirty three hundred, thirty two hundred. It's twenty eight hundred?

Coach Mills (02:00:39.74)
Yeah, I mean I I would I would argue it's isn't it like isn't like

ShibbyMR (02:00:39.838)
Twenty eight hundred energy twenty eight hundred. It's been it's it's matched moon nights at twenty eight hundred for the longest time. That was my biggest complaint.

Coach Mills (02:00:45.062)
Yeah, like like w like why like why like that's my argument is like why the fuck is that i it's probably super high. Yeah, like look it up shrimp if you don't mind. I'm I'm curious. It's probably like mad high comparison. Like I yeah, I mean the d the character's just stupid for getting ult that quickly. Like I don't know I don't care if you have to give compensation or whatever somewhere else, it just

Fauwkz (02:00:45.488)
Well that's what Star Lord Alt is right now. What's Thoralt? Thirty five?

ShibbyMR (02:00:51.316)
Million? I don't fucking know.

I gotcha, I gotcha, I got you.

ShibbyMR (02:01:08.018)
it's thirty one hundred, but it's still like it's just it's

Coach Mills (02:01:10.632)
But like but like Thor is doing a lot of things that don't charge that, I feel like. Like he's not you know, like when you're kidnapping shit on the front line, you're not really just spamming damage like Good is. I don't know. Anyways, that would that would be my nerf. That would be my nerf for sure. Fuck that character.

ShibbyMR (02:01:14.834)
Yeah. Yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:01:24.562)
Yeah, him and Moon Knight have been like paired with twenty eight hundred ults. Like there was a period there was like a couple of seasons ago where Moon Knight and Thor were just dropping ults on your head every fight or every other fight and it was

Coach Mills (02:01:27.977)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (02:01:33.998)
That was the best change of the patch, by the way. The Moon Knight the Moon Knight nerfs. The best change the best change of the patch. That character was way too OP. Yeah. See? Nerfs, Captain Coach.

Coach Mills (02:01:34.568)
movement, yeah. the the Moon Knight nerfs. No fucking great. Fucking great. I they need to do that more. I like it. I like that shit a lot. Nah. Can we can't wait okay, okay, Fox. I want to hear what you think about so in seven point we got the old nerfs, where we don't charge old as fast.

ShibbyMR (02:01:39.634)
Yes, hundred percent. A hundred percent.

CaptainCoach (02:01:47.554)
One hundred percent. No, I I'm with you. I agree. I agree.

Fauwkz (02:01:56.048)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (02:01:58.534)
My I I've argued that there is more we could nerf that without getting to diminishing returns. Do you think that we're in a good spot? Or would you like even less ultimates?

Fauwkz (02:02:09.488)
I actually think it's okay right now. I I don't know if you cause if you nerf it more now, if you nerf it more, you'll go almost guaranteed entire single first domination rounds without any ults being online. And I think that's not the worst thing. It's not the worst thing, but I don't know if that's the ideal. I think you would at least like alts to get online in a domination.

CaptainCoach (02:02:23.96)
Hm.

ShibbyMR (02:02:26.728)
Sucks for casuals.

Coach Mills (02:02:27.068)
It it it's it's interesting though. That's kinda interesting. It can be kinda interesting.

Fauwkz (02:02:38.252)
If a team like you want the team to have the ability to come back, right? So if you go if you go down and you lose the first two fights on DOM, that third fight is the last fight unless you have a TP fight. Okay. And so I think you want all ults to get online around that range. And I think that's when ults are coming online right now, right? Unless you're in a slow meta right now, where that they're a little bit longer. And so the only thing I guess I would change is I would just maybe not global.

But you could do it by roll. Right? And so I think you could you could charge you could nerf each roll's ult a little bit more, but not like another 10%. Another 10% would be way too much. Right? I in my opinion. But I think you could hit like DPS maybe not DPS, maybe like tanks for 5% and supports for like three. And I think that might be the most you could probably push it to where

Coach Mills (02:03:34.526)
Mm, okay. Just just hit him I see you.

Fauwkz (02:03:38.732)
Alts are still getting online relatively in a healthy environment on like quick games. so that comeback because again you want comebacks to be viable and teams that use ultimates, ultimates are a big win condition, right? but you also don't want it to be an alt spam, and I think that's what it was before the global alt charge nerf. so I I I like it's it's in a pretty healthy spot in my opinion right now. But or or you could take the other approach and you could say slower type characters like Groot and things like that.

Coach Mills (02:03:58.58)
Pretty just how it's map. Okay.

ShibbyMR (02:04:00.779)
Fauwkz (02:04:07.98)
you can nerf those alts and 'cause cause di cause yeah, 'cause dive characters just don't kinda get their ults till like the third fight, right? But like in slow comps, like you're gonna get your alt really quickly because everything's sustaining. And so if you i if you kind of are axing a little bit of alts, you could kinda do it case by case. I generally like individual alt charge nerfs. Like they really hurt Luna. Like Luna's is still like five K right now, I think. Right, which I think is good. Right? Support ults should be hard to get. but

Coach Mills (02:04:09.63)
Just d case by case basis, right? Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:04:15.027)
Right.

Coach Mills (02:04:32.788)
Great, yeah.

Fauwkz (02:04:37.444)
But yeah, so I think it's okay for now.

ShibbyMR (02:04:42.261)
Yeah, I think season nine should be the great team up renaissance because team ups fucking suck, man. Like we got one new team up in eight point five. Like I'm telling you, like the same way they introduced I I I've heard I've heard other things. Fundament I yeah, I've heard they are doing a fundamental rework, and I think if they don't make it to where team ups are active on both ends, I think they've failed personally.

Fauwkz (02:04:52.942)
I've heard they're doing that though.

Coach Mills (02:04:55.179)
wait they're they're they're not you heard they're doing what?

Fauwkz (02:04:58.096)
They're restructuring the way team ups work, I'm pretty sure.

Coach Mills (02:05:01.47)
Interesting.

CaptainCoach (02:05:01.719)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (02:05:08.386)
No, I I don't think that's what it's gonna be though. I think I I think I've heard two different things. I've they've they've I've heard they're either going back to what they were originally doing at the beginning of the game, where you had really, really powerful team ups, which is what I like, like gamma and and infinite ammo and things like that, right? Or heck no, not ne never that. Never never that, right? Or or they're they're making it so team ups are more like there's less of an anchor character.

ShibbyMR (02:05:10.964)
I don't yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:05:22.504)
Gamma, frost quids, infinite ammo. No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no. Whoa, whoa.

Coach Mills (02:05:25.074)
Res call baby.

CaptainCoach (02:05:27.682)
Somebody mute this guy.

Coach Mills (02:05:32.723)
Like I said.

Fauwkz (02:05:37.88)
And it's more so if you have a character in that vicinity, like an Avenger or X-Men, then your team-up cooldowns online. Something like that. But the I th I think if they did it like that, I think if they did it that way, they're gonna make it so that the team-ups aren't that impactful. So I would prefer to have like really imp powerful team-ups because that's a balance knob that you can really tune that you can't really do if you're making team-ups like everybody has something. I like the niche about them.

ShibbyMR (02:05:47.38)
I think they just need to make it more active.

Coach Mills (02:05:47.846)
Interesting. Wait.

Coach Mills (02:05:54.664)
Interesting. We're really powerful.

Fauwkz (02:06:07.096)
I just don't like when they do like same role team ups. Like Mantis Loki, that's bad. Right? You should avoid that.

Coach Mills (02:06:11.88)
Yeah. So so to to play off No, whoa, whoa, whoa, I like that. It's fun. It's fun. It's super fun.

ShibbyMR (02:06:13.52)
Well, I think like Fing Hulk is garbage too. Like like that's just bad

Fauwkz (02:06:17.4)
Yo, Punch Bros is fire. I think I think I think just s I think just stay away from support to support team ups. Right? the other roles can have team ups, but if it's a support support team up, I think you get dangerous

ShibbyMR (02:06:19.581)
It's fire, but you play that shit

Coach Mills (02:06:28.494)
I wanna hear what you have to say about this fox, because I brought this up in a previous pod. Like one of the things I thought was really obnoxious about Res Comp is that they were just on double support and a really good character, right? Like in Star Lord. Like it was really easy to slot that into any comp. I like the idea of giving giving the most broken comps to like dumbass trios. Like stupid trios. Like like we're talking like Luna Squirrel Girl Penny and they get Res Comp or something like that. Like like literally just like

Good character, shit character, and then the the team up's broken. Like then then it then I can see a pro meta where there's like there's like a random Mr. Fantastic, not because the character's viable, but because the team up is so good it justifies like and your your entire like coaching is like and and analysis is trying to figure out how to hide this shitty character, like how to make him work. I just think it'd be h it would be very interesting for me.

ShibbyMR (02:07:01.192)
So so Rocket Fantastic Star Lord

Fauwkz (02:07:17.996)
Yeah. No, I I I like that idea. I like the idea of taking strong characters and pairing them with weak characters, making the strong character like Luna the anchor and making the weak character the one that gets the cooldown to significantly increase their viability. I really like that. so yeah, I I I I love that idea. But I d I d I don't know if the goal should be weird combinations. They should still kind of be like lore-ish accurate, right?

Coach Mills (02:07:40.884)
Okay, I see what you Okay, well okay I see what you're saying, yeah.

Fauwkz (02:07:45.228)
I think that's a good idea to do, but I think you should absolutely pair really strong characters like Cap, Luna, Loki with weird weak characters like Loki and Hella if they got a cool team up together that was not like terrible, right? Yeah, right? So so something that can just sprout them into viability if the strong character becomes viable, right?

Coach Mills (02:08:01.011)
Right, right. Something some reason to play them over other things, like an actual reason, right, yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:08:11.346)
Yeah, I mean I think rivals

Fauwkz (02:08:12.132)
So like so like White Fox is a character that is really strong, but weak right now. But if she gets a team up with a weak character, let's say Black Cat, right? Who's just bad right now, but the team up makes or no or it makes her or just makes her a lot stronger. Like it increases her power level like double, right? That's something that I think is is good because then that's a way for hey, I don't need to hyper buff this bad character. I can keep their kit.

Coach Mills (02:08:23.314)
And it gives her a new item in the shop or some shit that's crazy cool or yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, right yeah.

Fauwkz (02:08:39.46)
bad if they're like an unhealthy character, quote unquote, but there's some viability or spots that you could play them, assuming this extra other character that is pseudo strong or kinda strong happens to be meta relevant, right? So I think that's a good way that they could approach it as well. So yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:08:57.32)
Well, I I also think team ups are just like really underexplored, right? Like I think Marvel Rivals has like the unique opportunity to make team ups for characters that normally like I I agree, like some of them should be like lore, comic accurate, whatever you to call it. But like I think I think like a human torch Black Panther team up would be sick because you never see those heroes together. So like the opportunity to bring heroes that normally wouldn't pee together in a composition, I think is like something that they don't do enough, right? Like they just don't they don't care about it.

I'm actually the complete opposite though, Fox. I think I think anchors are just like a lazy fucking mechanic and I just like I think it's not intuitive. I am much more on the end of like you should increase the skill expression of team ups by giving both players an active button to do something, right? So like there's only a handful.

Fauwkz (02:09:43.374)
But then you but but then you can't really give it to the strong characters because then they're then they become way too powerful. Right? Like if you gave Luna if you gave Luna an extra button right now. Like w what we what are we doing? If you gave Gambit an extra button right now. Right? Like the these characters become unplayable. They'll always be banned. That shouldn't be the goal. Right? So I actually like anchors because the anchor bonuses, it's not like the anchor bonuses don't do anything. Right? They're

ShibbyMR (02:09:50.653)
Well I mean

ShibbyMR (02:10:10.588)
I mean, they're they're really good. They're really good. Which is the issue too sometimes though, right? Because once a character loses the anchor bonus, then they have to compensation buff them. Yeah. And then sometimes the compensation buff either land underlands. I've never seen the compensation buff be like, they've been fairly compensated. They're either garbage or like, they just comp buffed her way too much now. And it's like I know some characters I feel like they live and die by the anchor bonus at times too, with the way the team up is. I agree with most of what you say. I just think personally I think anchors are lazy, but I think you're right on the sense of like

Fauwkz (02:10:17.252)
They usually do a compensating buff though. Yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:10:41.128)
giving Luna an extra button would be weird. But maybe like make it a mechanic where they have to interact to get the team up or something like that. But I think players just sometimes Marvel Rivals players don't like cooperating. So that's an issue too.

CaptainCoach (02:10:51.692)
No, I I think that is a good point. Like I think a lot of the team ups do come down to whether or not they think that people are actually going to use them and press the buttons together. So I I'm kind of more for what Fox said. Like I th I I do think it should probably be one side. I also think they they do those anchors t as as a way to kind of like pseudo balance their game in in like a cheap and easy way, like for the developers, you know what I mean? Like you know how like League would always do these like plus five A D buffs to heroes and it's just like it's obvious. Yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:11:11.752)
Yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:11:16.948)
Mm. It's like here's here's an extra hundred health on Hulk or whatever. But like your boy was anchor jailed for years. Dude, dude, I casted it, man. It's it's I played both league and overwatch, so it's yeah, I'm I'm cooked, man. My brain is mush. COVID. It was just COVID. Like I COVID happened and I had a lot of free time 'cause I had just graduated college and then

Coach Mills (02:11:20.285)
Right here, right.

Fauwkz (02:11:21.454)
Y'all played league, your mental health must be in the garbage.

Coach Mills (02:11:25.372)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:11:32.246)
How d how'd you get into casting? Are you

ShibbyMR (02:11:44.36)
kinda got into it and there's a lot of resources out there but yeah I don't really do league no more. Just I gave a lot of my life to League and li League you know, I love League but League don't love me, man. That's all that's all it is. But it's the ro

CaptainCoach (02:11:55.022)
That was kinda how I felt. What'd you what what did you mean? What did you mean in league? me too. Hell yeah.

Coach Mills (02:11:55.067)
Ha ha ha

That's interesting.

ShibbyMR (02:12:00.671)
I was a jungler. Okay. Yeah. Well, we I gravitate towards tank roll. In Overwatch I was a tank player. I played Ryan, Winston, Zarya, all that kind of stuff. So yeah. I was an ethical tank player.

Coach Mills (02:12:10.642)
Nice, nice.

CaptainCoach (02:12:11.854)
Okay, okay. Okay. Yeah, I played Graves. Graves Viego. dude.

Coach Mills (02:12:19.854)
What what what did you play at Overwatch, Fox?

Fauwkz (02:12:23.112)
I was a D I was a Flex DPS player. I played Fara, Echo, Sombra, Mei. Yeah, Genji Tracer. Not really Tracer. I d I didn't have the mechanical skill to play Tracer, but I played every other Flex DPS besides Tracer. So I was a shitty Flex DPS player because I was unable to play Tracer. So my hit scam player, who back in Overwatch was Melo. We were a DPS duo. He was the hit scan player who was also the Tracer player. So

Coach Mills (02:12:25.768)
Let's go. Wait, let's fucking go. We kinda played this similar similar. We played similar shit. I d I d I I was a filthy Genji one trick, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:12:40.203)
nice.

Coach Mills (02:12:47.205)
shit, nice.

Coach Mills (02:12:52.048)
Ooh, okay, let's fucking go. Okay, nice. What did you do did you have fun being put in brig jail? no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Fauwkz (02:12:52.814)
Yeah. yeah, I was

Fauwkz (02:12:58.84)
I loved Brig bro. my gosh. I was dude dude dude I dude dude K K. Here's the thing. Here's the thing. So my my team right now, Swamp, we had a lot of the same players, right? Me, Mello, Daze FPS, Ryan guy, my old assistant coach, he was a extremely talented Lucio player. we were all Overwatch players on the same team. Yeah, and and so the goats meta, we loved goats, bro, because Daze was Daze was a Reinhardt player.

Coach Mills (02:13:17.724)
I think I think I n recognize that name, but it was keep going. Yeah.

Fauwkz (02:13:28.972)
And he was one of the best. And my gosh, bro. Like we we would go into we would pull back into Overwatch tournaments just to play GOATs. Because we we thought it was the most fun meta. Which I think it was the most fun meta because it was so deathbally and team heavy. team play heavy, which is why we like rivals, because rivals is just so much more team play heavy than than Overwatch ever was. Yeah. Well it's it's just like like team play is exemplified in in this game and

Coach Mills (02:13:49.396)
Yeah, it's kinda goats the game a little bit. Yeah, yeah, it feels like it. Yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:13:51.996)
A little bit. No.

Fauwkz (02:13:57.548)
Individualism is is more ri is more overwatch, especially in five V five, which is terrible.

Coach Mills (02:14:00.562)
Right. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:14:03.736)
Probably be a good time to bring up our thoughts on the dyno changes since we haven't touched on it and just dyno as a whole, 'cause we we

Coach Mills (02:14:04.425)
Yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:14:10.068)
yeah, I got a lot of thoughts on Dino. That that guy fucking is the epitome of what five V five Overwatch is. Because Dino comps, the issue with Dino, my issue with Dino is that if you play Dino, your whole comp has to warp around the Dino player. I've I've I played a lot of Dino Mirrors when I was playing last season. And like if I walk out and my Dino Mirror, I have like a Black Panther and I have like a non frontline DPS and they're running like

Coach Mills (02:14:13.715)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:14:37.131)
Swap.

ShibbyMR (02:14:38.268)
Yeah, and they're running like Punisher, Moon Knight, Phoenix. They're running like damage boost. Or they're running if I'm running like Dino Plus, no offense, coach, if I'm running Dino Hulk and I've I walk into Dino Emma, my shit's getting clapped every day. Like I'm just not gonna have a fun time. So Dino Comps just became around or Dino just became around which team built the better Dino Comp. I'm sure Fox can attest to it. Even in pro play, that's how it was, right? Like you couldn't walk out. If you walked out on a worse Dino Comp, it was way harder to play the game.

Fauwkz (02:15:09.356)
You guys wanna go first?

Coach Mills (02:15:09.524)
What do you think? No, I wanna I wanna hear you. I I had I I think my first interaction with you was me like in engagement farming off of your dyno tape. So I wanna hear what you had to say. No I it don't don't don't don't believe

Fauwkz (02:15:13.195)
My mine's a

Fauwkz (02:15:19.658)
Yeah, you bro, you you rage baited the shit out of me. my gosh. No, you p you pissed me my my first interaction with my first interaction with Coach Mills on Twitter, I was like this motherfucker. I hate this guy. Right? I was like, fuck this guy. I was like

CaptainCoach (02:15:19.736)
Mm-hmm.

No.

CaptainCoach (02:15:28.654)
He's been getting good at that.

Coach Mills (02:15:30.548)
It's not I'm not I'm not I'm not being serious at all on X. Like like I I I I I used to make posts that were I was trying to be genuine and I'd get like five likes and I was like nah all right I'm just gonna rage bait I'm just gonna rage bait like poke versus dive supports and tanks versus DPS and it just it's free views. That's it.

ShibbyMR (02:15:31.836)
He's pretty good. He's pretty good on Twitter.

Fauwkz (02:15:34.115)
No, no, I don't.

CaptainCoach (02:15:40.47)
Yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:15:40.744)
No, just rage bait. Just rage bait.

Fauwkz (02:15:48.024)
Yeah, no, it's so my issue with the I I I I have a different take from Shibby. The the issue with Dino wasn't that your comp had to revolve around him. The issue with Dino is you would slot him into any comp and it would be better. Right? And it wasn't because the character was good, it wasn't because the character did things, it was because the character had so much stats and so much HP and couldn't die that you didn't have to do anything on the character. When I would vaud review my Dino player scatter, okay, half the time I'm telling him stop walking forward.

Stop trying to do things. Just exist here and you get value. They can't take space against you. So you just stand here and you get value. And if they shoot you, you get more value. Because you're recharging our support alts. They're not gonna kill you. At the worst, you go down to 200, 100 HP, you press E. Now you're back up to max HP. So the character had so much stats, but he didn't do anything. And so I said it on stream before that that he got nerfed. I said

He's one shield nerf away from being F tier. Because he doesn't walk forward well. He doesn't do damage well. He doesn't brawl very well, right? Because his head hitbox is so high, he's gonna pop like a balloon if he loses even a little bit of sustain. Okay. And then they they heard a sustain, and now he's terrible. So I think he he was the worst.

Coach Mills (02:17:07.316)
Do do you think he's bad? Like do you do do you have him? You think he's bad? 'Cause he actually still ha he still has a high win rate in like Eternity lobby, Celestial Eternity.

Fauwkz (02:17:10.19)
Bad. bad. yeah. Yeah, every

Yeah, I think I think he's he's I think he's viable enough, but I think if the enemy team is playing guns that will headshot you, you will pop. Very quickly. So if you're playing against comps that have more melee, less range, he's still a little viable. Right? He's he's okay, he's not dead dead, but like I think he's I don't know if you'll see him get played in tier one.

Coach Mills (02:17:44.764)
Okay and pro.

CaptainCoach (02:17:44.877)
I got an idea.

Fauwkz (02:17:45.444)
Like I think there's too many characters that are just that rinse him. If he gets Emma grabbed, he's dead. Right? yeah, well Cy Cyclops eats him alive because of the the right-click beam, because you can just cleave their entire team. So so there there's just it's yeah. The meta s again, the when we slow down into a poke meta from a dive meta, the thing about the dive meta is key you couldn't poke him out because you had dive characters. But now we're in like a poke triple support meta. We've got enough damage to pop you instantly, right?

ShibbyMR (02:17:51.036)
Wolf Cyclops like eats him alive. Like it's just

Yeah. Yep.

Fauwkz (02:18:15.712)
and then you use your bubble and then you're not a character. Right?

CaptainCoach (02:18:18.242)
What if they gave him a team up with Scarlet Witch since she has reality warping, just shrink his head? Make him harder to headshot him.

Fauwkz (02:18:23.908)
Fire Fire Yeah, yeah, yeah. So no no but but like I actually think it's a good thing, like if you wanted to add the meme dinosaur character, which like I didn't think should be in the game in the first place, because nobody knew who he was, right?

ShibbyMR (02:18:25.04)
Just make smaller, press a button, make smaller as hip box. That's crazy.

Coach Mills (02:18:39.196)
I mean people were fucking hyped. That's that's that's mainly like I think that's where pros and casuals fought. Yeah, but like they pay the bills. They pay the tournament bills.

Fauwkz (02:18:41.301)
Yeah, so it's like it's it's casual bait.

ShibbyMR (02:18:46.228)
You get to play as a big fucking dinosaur.

Fauwkz (02:18:47.886)
Th that's that's fair, but like at the same time, y you also want characters that are fun for casuals. And I don't think there's anything about the character that is fun besides the the first wow experience I'm playing a dinosaur. Once you get past that, the where's the fun?

Coach Mills (02:19:03.762)
I mean I mean but like to be honest, if you're gonna put a dinosaur in a game, what the fuck are they gonna do? Like like what are they gonna do? Like like but that but but the thing is like from a casual perspective it's like shit, let's let's play rivals this weekend. They have a fucking dinosaur in the game. But like like that, I don't think you can make it better. Like I I d I just don't know what you can like I don't I can't imagine a good dinosaur design. Like I just I

Fauwkz (02:19:08.642)
No, th th that th I I agree with you. I agree with you. But like

Fauwkz (02:19:18.062)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:19:21.87)
Mm.

Fauwkz (02:19:25.878)
No, I I I agree with you. Like I like I I don't know if they should like I don't think they should change the character, but I think this is the type of character that you now, at his current power level, you don't touch him ever. You just keep him mid permanently. Like you don't ever have to buff this character or ever have to nerf this character. Where he is right now, he's not dead dead. If you want to pick him, you can play him. I saw Guru play him on stream. I've seen other people play him. Right?

ShibbyMR (02:19:36.892)
You just keep him mid. You just keep him mid.

Coach Mills (02:19:38.12)
Diskeep on mid. Well yeah yeah. No I I could see that.

CaptainCoach (02:19:38.755)
Wow.

Fauwkz (02:19:53.562)
But he's not strong in any which way, and there should be a host of characters better than him, right? but he he's at least strong enough to where if you pick him, you're not exactly throwing, but it's like there's there's a bunch of other characters that you should be on. So I think he's like fine where he is now. I just hated how strong he was on release. He ruined the game for an entire season. Like, like let's get it straight. The entire reason 8.0 was the worst season of rivals.

ShibbyMR (02:20:15.539)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (02:20:22.126)
was just because of the dinosaur and the impact he had on the entire meta. He took Sue out, he made all all these other characters that were fun that people like to play just terrible. He's the reason Black Cat got more play than Daredevil. Right? Because the Daredevil got killed by the Dinosaur, but not but the Daredevil or the Black Cat didn't. So Daredevil was still a better character last patch than Black Cat, but

ShibbyMR (02:20:47.144)
Dino grabs like Dino's anti Yeah, Dino appeal is last season was the so craziest thing.

Fauwkz (02:20:47.962)
But Dino grabs the Daredevil and can't grab the black pack as I frames. So it's like everything he did just made the game feel worse for everybody. Right? So that but where he is right now, I'm very happy with. I'm glad they they nerfed him the way they did. And they didn't need to take a heavy hand to him because he is a glass cannon character, where it's like if you touch him a little bit, his power's gonna drastically go up and down. He's like a blade type.

CaptainCoach (02:21:10.648)
So yeah, a topic we covered a lot last episode was pros versus casual. Who should we balance? Okay, who should we balance the game around? well just I'll just go right off of what you said. Dino at Celestial Plus, twenty-seven percent ban rate, six percent pick rate, fifty-three percent win rate. And you say a hero yeah, in Celestial Plus. And and you say hero like that,

Coach Mills (02:21:12.092)
It's interesting.

Fauwkz (02:21:19.021)
I saw the I don't know.

ShibbyMR (02:21:20.612)
Mm.

Fauwkz (02:21:34.448)
Right now.

Okay.

CaptainCoach (02:21:40.458)
No changes. So th your suggestion then would be to keep a hero like this in the game in its current state for forever, right? What would your message be then to casuals or or equal I I guess maybe more what I want to ask is like where should we draw the line as far as like game balance?

Fauwkz (02:21:58.466)
So I I I I yeah, so I I heard your I heard your guys' entire podcast. It was great. Okay. trust me it's hilarious. So is so is light. and I think the game should be balanced top down. Not because I'm a pro, but because I think that actually creates a healthy casual base. Okay, because it's a trickle down. If you keep your pro community happy and your high ELO players happy, well all your streamers are high elo players.

ShibbyMR (02:21:58.772)
Play gun characters.

Coach Mills (02:22:08.308)
It was good shit.

Coach Mills (02:22:15.54)
Boo. No, I'm skidding out of there. Yeah, yeah.

Fauwkz (02:22:27.192)
And all the casuals watch the streamers. So if your pro community is happy, your streamers are happy. Which means the casuals are happy. Because if you balance around the casuals, everybody's unhappy. Because they're always going to be complaining about something. Black Panther, Widow, Scarlet Witch, Dinosaur, Thor, Penny, something random. You can't balance for them because they don't play the game properly. So what you should do is

ShibbyMR (02:22:43.422)
Moon night.

Fauwkz (02:22:54.03)
Balance top down, keep the game healthy at the high elo so that the pros and the streamers are happy, which impact the entire community, right? and then try and have mitigating losses at low ELO, where the things that are strong at high elo, if you create good characters like Daredevil, like Captain America, they're going to naturally have good win rates at high and low win rates at low, right? And so you can then

Balance the bad characters like Black Panther, Widow, Scarlet Witch to make it a healthy environment for the casuals without impacting the pros and streamers at all. And so I think that's actually how you get a healthy game. Because if you look at the healthiest games right now, right, the healthiest new game is Valorant. Okay. The developers on the release of Valorant straight up said, if you're a casual, this is not for you. We are balancing top down.

And it is a thriving game. The viewership is great at pro. All they do is care about their high ELO and Pro. And that trickles down to everything else and everybody else is happy. Okay? People play hero shooters to compete. You have naturally more competitive people playing these PvP types of games. If you want to play more casual games, you're gonna be on Minecraft and and MOBAs and and newer games that are coming out like Ion 2, right?

Rather than PvP games that you're naturally trying to win, right? So I think you should always be balancing top down because the the data shows the games that do that do well, and the games that try and balance for casuals, like Overwatch, do terribly. Overwatch died because of 5v5. They lost so many people because of it.

Coach Mills (02:24:37.0)
But it it's it's well it's it's very funny because my problem is there's I I I I I do agree with you at at your core. Like I agree with that argument. But what I will say, because I want to echo the comments and I want to echo the sentiment, there's a lot of people that believe that Overwatch died because they bounced for pros. Like this is a common sentiment that people have, even if it's wrong. They actually believe that. Like the game bounced from the top down, and that's what killed Overwatch. That's what they believe.

Fauwkz (02:25:04.6)
Yeah, but the the the that's just it's just as the farthest thing from the truth. Pro players wanted goats gone in three months. Pro and and we were the ones who knew how to fix it. I wasn't a pro in that I wasn't a pro in that game, I was a tier two player. but like w we wanted Brig to get gutted. You heard Sumito clamoring from the hails to to to just gut brig. All you had to do was gut brig, and then the game was better. Okay. And specifically

Coach Mills (02:25:08.326)
I no, I know. Yeah. Yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:25:15.249)
You just have

Coach Mills (02:25:23.284)
'Cause yeah. Well that

ShibbyMR (02:25:23.508)
Brig was created for casuals, by the way. Brig was created because of Genji Tracer.

Fauwkz (02:25:32.302)
Gut her the right way. It was all about inspire. You just had to attack that singular passive cooldown. Okay. If you attacked that properly, Goats dies. Okay. It wasn't the D.Va, it wasn't the Lucio, it wasn't the Zenyata. It was just about the Brig. We were the ones who were wanting that to change. And because GOATs wasn't meta for the rest of the people, and again, we also weren't the ones who were like, yo, let's pause the game to change to 5v5 and not balance the game for a year and a half, right?

Coach Mills (02:25:45.97)
I w 'cause b what I I know.

Coach Mills (02:25:58.182)
R right. Well no, it the thing is like 'cause l you know, I lived through that. I was I was screaming through that time and like I I I understand what you're talking about and I I agree with you. My problem is like you're it's very easy to lose the casual audience forever. Like they don't they they're not gonna engage with our conversations if we come at it from like they don't matter, their opinions don't matter, the balance for them doesn't matter, we're gonna bounce from top down. This game is competitive.

Fauwkz (02:26:02.468)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:26:26.064)
And if you want if you don't like it, then go play fucking Roblox because that's kind of what you're saying. Is what you're saying.

Fauwkz (02:26:29.146)
But you w but you wanna know why Neddies keeps on doing these huge streamer tournaments? Because they're trying to recruit people like Jinxie like you you guys see when Jinxy goes from game to game to game, he brings his entire community with him, right? And the only way you retain players like that

Coach Mills (02:26:39.57)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're trying to yeah. Well no, I a hundred yeah, I agree.

Fauwkz (02:26:45.804)
Is by having a healthy high level game, right? And you keep the streamers happy, because then their entire his entire million fan base, million person fan base, joins the game, increases the community, spends money on the game, and then you try and retain those players. Your goal should all be about all about streamers. Okay. I'm not even talking about pro players. Okay. Cause when I'm talking about top down, screw the pros. Okay. It should be about high-level ranked. Okay? Which in inevitably will be.

Coach Mills (02:26:50.408)
I don't I don't how how far away is Jinxie from getting to

Fauwkz (02:27:14.86)
Pro esque?

Coach Mills (02:27:15.092)
It it's it's just there's this experiences that are not always aligned. Even with high level and like mid high, low high. Like like there's a lot of people in low Elo, or not even low Elo, like in Grandmaster that are fucking banning Moon Knight or pre you know, in eight point They're just banning Moon Knight. Yeah, well like but no

Fauwkz (02:27:21.006)
Like give me an example though.

Fauwkz (02:27:27.536)
Mm-hmm.

Fauwkz (02:27:31.694)
Yeah, it was a great band.

ShibbyMR (02:27:34.089)
No.

Fauwkz (02:27:34.934)
Who you know how many times we lost scrims because NRG swapped Moon Knight? my gosh.

CaptainCoach (02:27:35.796)
I agree.

Coach Mills (02:27:38.566)
No, but no, but but they're not but they're not banning Moon Knight for the reason that you're banning Moon Knight. They're banning the Moon Knight because they don't know how to play Psylock. Like they don't know how to play these characters that counter the like the like a lot of people don't even understand why Cap is busted. Like they don't even understand, not until Celestial Plus. Yeah, I'm I I don't even know what it's probably look.

Fauwkz (02:27:54.106)
But what's Cap's win rate at low Elo, though? Right? Like Moon, like again, the reason I said Moon Knight was the best nerf that they had this patch is because Moon Knight, again, is is is a character that terrorizes low elo and should never be good at pro. So if you nerfed Moon Knight, you are balancing for for casuals and pros at the same time. Right? Because I want characters to be healthy that don't just ruin the casual experience. That's why when Shibhi said buff Black Panther album was like, you must be crazy.

Coach Mills (02:28:02.995)
It's fifty two percent. Cap is fifty two percent in mid like mid, you know. Diamond.

Coach Mills (02:28:10.62)
He I mean but the but the thing is like okay wait let me look at eight point let me look at eight point

Fauwkz (02:28:24.354)
Right? Because you want to keep the the game balanced from top down, but that means that you want characters that don't ruin the game, right? At a at low at low ELO to be encroaching on high ELO. And if you get good at characters like Cap and Daredevil, you'll climb out of low ELO. Right? And so you're incentivizing the climb, you're incentivizing people to learn and develop and improve at a character that is high skill rather than remain where they are. And so

Coach Mills (02:28:25.288)
Man, win rate fell.

ShibbyMR (02:28:35.092)
Bronze through diamond level.

Coach Mills (02:28:54.612)
I mean I I guess I I've heard I've even heard like Yeah.

Fauwkz (02:28:54.616)
So w w whenever people bring up those characters like Moon Knight and and things adjacent to him, it is at in a still in a way balancing top down. Because the character the only reason the character feels extremely oppressive is because they started encroaching on the meta. Moon Knight was getting played in front to back all the time. Over Elsa, over Phoenix. He was the

Coach Mills (02:29:12.156)
Well I mean in every in every meta, Moon Knight has been like the number one op for Lo Hilo. Like it doesn't matter what the meta is.

Fauwkz (02:29:18.862)
Yeah, not anymore at high elo though, which means he's gonna be a lot healthier for low elo.

CaptainCoach (02:29:20.942)
This is this is probably a good opportunity to continue the conversation we had last week with Imperator and Nerfpool about having two different separate versions of the game. One balance for rank mode where all the heroes have different stats, different things and then the casual mode, kind of like League does with A RAM, where in quick plays, eighteen verse eighteen, we have totally different stats.

ShibbyMR (02:29:43.102)
Ooh Whoa So you're saying but they but the casual if it's quick you do you okay coach, I wanna ask you this. Do you want quick play to mirror rank though?

CaptainCoach (02:29:54.444)
Yeah. It should be like an introductory kind of like, okay, you play half a game, this is what it's like. But quick play should have probably different balancing, right? If that's cause cause we we w one thing we've talked about a lot on this podcast is

ShibbyMR (02:30:04.52)
That'll kill the game. That'll kill the game. I'm sorry. That'll kill the game. If if because so this is and I I I'm I'm a big proponent because the the example you bring up for league is because it's an alternative game mode. I'm cool with alternative game modes for rivals that have different balancing, right? 18 versus 18 fucking Hulk punches you, he does two thousand damage or whatever. I don't who cares, right? Whatever. You have a like a completely customizable rule set, all that stuff. But you want your casual player base that plays the game.

You want the people that watch the game. If they go watch Coach Mills, Captain Coach, Fox, Shibbi, whoever, right? Flats, if they watch that, the idea is they go watch those people and then they can take what they're doing and replicate it in their own games. But now you're saying I can't watch Flats and him competing or playing in Celestial top 500. I can't watch Coach Mills fry people on Phoenix because Phoenix in this queue, quick play, casual, does 30% damage.

You do not, in my opinion, you do not want to disconnect your casual audience from what they are visually seeing. Because that is, in my opinion, that's a very, very quick way to kill your game. Because like, why do people watch streamers? Why do people watch pro players? Because they like the people that invest their time and their their their capacity to watch stuff for this stuff is because A, they want to be entertained, but B, they want to know what the fuck, what is the best shit to play? How do I play this character? Why do I play this character? Why, like what

Coach Mills (02:31:07.508)
That's a good point. I haven't thought about that, yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:31:32.198)
are they doing that I'm not doing and when can I take that into ranked immediately? There are like I think a majority of the audience, they watch people play Marvel Rivals and then they want to go do that same shit. And now you're disconnecting it, which personally I think is a bad thing. I I'm I'm okay with alternative game modes.

Fauwkz (02:31:45.326)
W what were you gonna say, coach though? Wha what were you gonna say though, cause bef before should be interjected? You were gonna finish your point.

CaptainCoach (02:31:53.774)
I don't remember. I mean, I kind of I mean, I kind of agree with you. Maybe maybe just have separate rule set or like power levels in the other game mode. I I mean to to me, yeah. Well I was talking about like what we talked about on previous episodes where it's it's it seems like they do not have a very consistent overarching design goal philosophy when it comes to the types of changes they make on patch notes. I think this patch, for instance

Coach Mills (02:32:16.852)
Philosophy, yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:32:24.418)
was definitely more targeted at the higher ranks. and I think that's why most people are generally happy with it. But you go and ask another portion of the player base, it's the worst patch ever. And it to me it's like, okay, how many of these like quote good patches do we need in a row before we're at the point where we think Netties is committing themselves to to actually balancing around the higher levels? Cause to me it just seems like they're wildly inconsistent. And to your point, Shibi, I think that's

arguably more detrimental to the game when all your best players are just complaining that whatever, Phoenix just got a buff l last patch. It's like what are what are we doing? Right. So it's like I think there's two sides to the argument. I do agree with you though. I think quick play probably should mirror ranked. but curious to hear your thoughts, Fox.

Fauwkz (02:33:10.112)
Yeah, so so you so so I I agree with the d design philosophy, right? Like I do think netties should come out with maybe a statement, I either privately or publicly, right, to their either pro community or streamers and say, Hey, this is gonna be our new balance approach. Okay, and this is how we're going to try and do it. Okay. And if it's top down, we want feedback. And if it's bottom up

CaptainCoach (02:33:11.768)
Separate game modes.

Fauwkz (02:33:39.066)
We're we're we're just gonna be balancing for the casuals. Okay. but yeah, which I think that's a f w I think that's a good idea to do because we know where Valorant stands and we kinda know where League stands and the healthy sports. And what I think you should try and do is you should try and emulate the successful ones, right? but I yeah, I I'm not a big fan. I agree with Shibby on on that. I don't splitting the splitting the game, at least if it's a separate game mode and kinda do what like

Coach Mills (02:33:43.474)
Yeah, let us know. Let us know what the fuck you're doing. Yeah.

Fauwkz (02:34:08.4)
I again I don't know league at all, guys, but like what what Deadlock did with the with the extra game mode that they just added, where it's like a 4v4 just run it down with what it run it down mid, I think that's good. But you could also like if if you're talking about like Overwatch and how Overwatch does like the 5v5 is the main game and 6v6 is the alternative, you could make something like that. But I I'm not the biggest fan of splitting the player base. I actually think Rivals is in a pretty healthy spot, casual wise. I think the issue that you're gonna have with

Coach Mills (02:34:09.788)
Yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:34:13.538)
Yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:34:15.39)
Well, Overwatch has different balancing, right? For different game modes?

Coach Mills (02:34:16.5)
Yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:34:26.27)
Six V six. Yeah.

Fauwkz (02:34:37.76)
Is in order for rivals to grow and to be long-term successful, you need the esport to grow, right? And so you need Twitch viewership to go up. You need Twitch viewership to go up and you need the pro scene to get healthier, right? And the only and the way you're gonna do that is with drops, with targeted advertising. And I think NetE's is a little behind on that, but that's I think that's because they're a Chinese company and their player base is in America and EMEA.

Coach Mills (02:34:45.662)
So yeah. So

Coach Mills (02:34:55.848)
Yeah, drops, yeah.

Fauwkz (02:35:04.962)
And so I think they're slowly kind of catching on to it. And again, this is a newer, newer game. It's only been a year and a half, right? And so once they realize that the with the esports growth comes the casual retention. Or at least because again, you you shouldn't your goal shouldn't be casuals. It should be player retention. And the players you are gonna keep are the hardcore people, right?

And those are the ones that are gonna stay and gonna keep your game healthy and gonna keep your game alive. Okay. And so the way you get those people is with communities of streamers and things like that. And so yeah. I I I don't know if I directly answered your question, but

ShibbyMR (02:35:31.186)
Your core player base.

Coach Mills (02:35:44.445)
It's it's it's interesting, Fox, because I I do agree with you in some regard, but I also think it's important to know like to note that I mean League of Legends and Valorant are not rivals. Like Rivals is not really as reliant on the esports scene as those games are to stay alive. Like if those if the esports teams scene just vanished, those games would not I mean, they would just die, basically. They would die quickly. Rivals is not quite to that level. I'm not saying that esports isn't a very important pillar.

Fauwkz (02:36:04.676)
They would die quickly, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:36:11.688)
But if this game turned into like a pure Destiny two casual game, I think it would still be very profitable. Like ex extremely profitable. We saw the spike. Yeah, well what is what does that what does relevant mean? Like they like they're printing millions of dollars, hundreds of millions. Yeah. I mean th w when when Zom the Zombies mode came out, we saw the highest peak since launch. When the zombies mode came out. That's just a fucking pure casual game game mode. Yeah, it's fair. Yeah. I mean that's true.

Fauwkz (02:36:19.204)
But it wouldn't be relevant though. Destiny two isn't relevant. Like it Well relevant is relevant is money, 'cause again, at the end of the day, Netdy's wants as

Fauwkz (02:36:36.004)
Yeah, but that was fire and the the entire high Elo community and streamers loved that. Again, that was a streamer thing too. You saw streamers t you saw streamers playing that for twenty plus hours.

ShibbyMR (02:36:40.328)
Yeah, everybody liked it.

Coach Mills (02:36:41.886)
Well yeah. But I but yeah. But like I really think that if they want to just I mean you said it with skin drops, like if they just gave like banger skin drops for the pro scene and like instead of like how how do I put it like as long as you have a really healthy community and like people that care about drops and shit and you have really cool drops, maybe ten percent of the people that are trying to farm drops off of a pro match, they they they're like, Hey, this shit's actually pretty cool. Let me watch this.

Fauwkz (02:37:10.116)
But I think the difference between Destiny 2 and a game like this is Destiny 2 isn't PvP, primarily. Right? And and and if if you're comparing yourself. But it's way closer to what Overwatch was. And Overwatch at its peak, and Overwatch when it was doing well, was doing well due to Overwatch League, due to consistent balance cycles, due to 6v6 in a healthy general game, right? And

Coach Mills (02:37:15.612)
Right. But I I mean I I like I think rivals is somewhere between that and and

Coach Mills (02:37:31.796)
I don't know if that's true. Well, I I don't agree with the Overwatch League thing, but I do agree with the six V six in a healthy general game, but

Fauwkz (02:37:37.72)
Okay, but but that but that was something that was happening at the time. It had a good product in 6v6. It had the developers actually developing and balancing the game before they abandoned it. Okay. And if you're comparing it to the other things, right, if you look at all the three healthiest games right now that are PvP, you got CS, you got League, and you got Valorant. They're all esports heavy. And they've been around forever now. Okay? It's all just about the hot top top of the game.

And their casual community is great. Go to Valorant. Swift play is still bumping. You got E-daters everywhere. Okay? Like, like it's same thing with sure, right? But but but it's the same thing with CS and League, right? You have a casual community inside your competitive community that's keeping it alive. But but but the But the other the other thing is the other thing is the other thing is with the with the the super high ELO

Coach Mills (02:38:13.66)
I fucking hate that game by the way. I hate fucking Valor. I hate Valor. I fucking hate it. Holy shit.

CaptainCoach (02:38:14.254)
Sign of a game success.

Coach Mills (02:38:22.344)
Like why can't gamers just be fucking balding in virgin? Why do we have E daters in our goddamn fucking tuner games? Alright, sorry, sorry, that's a completely different Okay, sorry. My bad.

ShibbyMR (02:38:24.69)
Wha wait Well I I will I will

Fauwkz (02:38:34.762)
and pro community comes sponsorships from other companies. These pro commu these pro tournaments that get huge viewership numbers bring in sponsorships, which is really where netties can make the money. Okay? Not even off of the skin drops. But like sponsored by Pepsi.

Coach Mills (02:38:46.652)
I I I I'm so like and I I do know that what I I like I I want the the esports scene to be really vibrant. I'm a big fan of top to bo down balance, but I will say that like I don't really think that that's where the money is made. I think that casuals make the money through skins and they and the money gets flown into the esports scene. Like the like East I think I think esports is always gonna be a lost leader for rivals. I don't think it's ever gonna generate money.

Fauwkz (02:39:06.948)
But casuals by their nature float around from game to game, no?

CaptainCoach (02:39:11.83)
Fauwkz (02:39:12.858)
But don't you think casuals just float around from game to game and they go to wherever the the f the fair w the the new hot thing?

ShibbyMR (02:39:15.24)
Well it it's all

Coach Mills (02:39:17.134)
Not when there's a new character every month. Like there's a new character every month. There's new skins every month. They just dump money in there. And the cat the the casuals are typically the whales when the competitive players are not. Like the like the hyper competitive players are not the whales of a game. They're not the really rich people that play the game randomly nine to five that are fucking engineers in their personal life. Those are the people that are like, I'm just gonna buy fucking every skin in the shop. Like, that's the person. Like, and I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying that.

ShibbyMR (02:39:22.312)
Well the

Fauwkz (02:39:22.628)
But there's a there's gonna be a new game every year, males.

Coach Mills (02:39:44.169)
Like the esports scene is leaning really hard on the competitive on the casual scene. They're not gonna ever make money. But it but they already talked about how they want two hundred characters in the game. They th they the the Disney exec No, but but what I'm saying is that this game is not like a casual game that like it's not like some random other casual game. Like that that's that's the thing is it's like it's like a supercharged casual game that is gonna make so much fucking money that they can just bankroll millions of dollars into their pro scene and they don't care if it makes money.

Fauwkz (02:39:47.812)
But those things die over time when new games release.

Fauwkz (02:39:56.164)
That's not a bad thing.

Fauwkz (02:40:03.792)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (02:40:13.278)
Like they just don't care.

Fauwkz (02:40:13.284)
But again, right, y you're talking about you but but Mills, you're talking about what's keeping the casual people around though. It's hero releases and skins. That's gonna be constant. It's not changing.

ShibbyMR (02:40:14.696)
But that's what you're supposed to do, right? Esports is used as a marketing arm.

Coach Mills (02:40:24.05)
Yeah. No, no, I agree, but but it but there also needs to be like I think perception matters too and like the perception of we don't give a fuck that you're dealing with these problems in low elo. We're only gonna balance for hot from the from the pro scene. Like I don't think that that's a good I don't really think that that's a good statement.

Fauwkz (02:40:40.45)
I don't think you can make the the difference is I don't think you can make casual players happy. There are they're gonna have some random issue. Like what does balancing for casuals look like?

Coach Mills (02:40:49.044)
I mean there's just care probably just like you have to you have to take a look at all the characters that they suffer. Yeah, yeah, legit. Like legit. Pen Penny Parker, Squirrel Girl, Black Panther.

CaptainCoach (02:40:49.247)
ShibbyMR (02:40:49.714)
Nerfing s nerfing squirrel girl?

Fauwkz (02:40:52.512)
Nerfing Squirrel Girl. But again, you're not gonna have any guys, but again, you're not gonna have any pros complain that Squirrel Girl got nerfed. Nobody wants that character to be pro.

ShibbyMR (02:40:54.374)
Yeah, like nerfing Scarlet Witch. Like what are we gonna do?

CaptainCoach (02:40:54.862)
All right.

CaptainCoach (02:41:04.242)
I think it is a sign of your esport's viability or whatever ability to be successful when you th we talk about just casually without even batting an eye that the the best way to increase the viewership for it is to add an in game skin instead of increasing the quality of the actual gameplay or watchability of the sport itself. That that to me is a major issue. 'Cause I I personally don't think rivals is a the fact that we're saying the best way to promote the esport

Fauwkz (02:41:28.41)
Say that again?

CaptainCoach (02:41:33.94)
is to offer rewards rather than actually focusing on whatever the the balance the the viewer experience watching it enjoying it because I personally I I I don't really enjoy watching pro rivals. I why I like the to me the four fun tournament the four the the four fun tournaments to me are where it's at.

ShibbyMR (02:41:48.402)
Hero shooters always have that problem though. Hero shoot no, he whoa whoa whoa.

Coach Mills (02:41:49.842)
Dow bro No way no we we we like we like watching you Fox. Just just you. But

Fauwkz (02:41:51.078)
Hey.

Fauwkz (02:41:55.877)
Thank you.

ShibbyMR (02:41:56.36)
Well also also hero shooters fundamentally will always have v watchability, viewability problems, right?

Fauwkz (02:42:00.804)
But Mills, the the the skin drops are are bait to get people on the stream, and then the product is what keeps them.

Coach Mills (02:42:06.258)
No, I yeah, and it works. But I well my my I guess my my core argument is like it doesn't matter how good the pro scene is, there's just a giant percentage of people that will never engage with it no matter how good it is. So like we just want like mass exposure. Like like come out with the like I I was suggesting in the previous part, like maybe a new hero, you get to play test it three days early if you fucking watch this pro match. Like like something like that. Like get get you could literally funnel like hundreds of thousands of people into a pro match. And they could do it so easily if they wanted to.

Fauwkz (02:42:17.999)
Yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:42:35.294)
Well also n also Netys doesn't use their esports division or their competition as a marketing arm. You like Fox brought up three games right now, right? The three best ones. Valorant, League of Legends and and CSGO. And both two of those games are owned by the same company, Riot Games, which I unfortunately have intimate knowledge of. They use those games as marketing arms. And pro players are like for at least early on, you can argue now they're not, but in Valorant they are right now. A lot of the pro players are the faces of that game. So

If NetEase doesn't do a good job using their esports scene as a like good marketing arm to say, hey, come and watch our esports scene. This is why you should watch it. You're a casual player. We've got all the people that are playing the best heroes. You learn how to play them, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And this I'm gonna push back a lot of the pro players in Marvel Rivals. How many of them stream consistently? How many of them market consistently? How many of them create YouTube videos? You have to you well, that's beside I mean, sure, sure, sure, sure.

Coach Mills (02:43:27.156)
How many of them run down your fucking games on their ults? Sorry, my bad.

Fauwkz (02:43:30.16)
Ha ha ha ha.

ShibbyMR (02:43:33.16)
But you have to fucking pull you have to pull teeth to get pro players to create guides on heroes when they should be doing that shit themselves, right? Like I don't get me started on the laziness of pro players and why they don't do a good job promoting their own scene because that shit happened in league. You disagree? So co so wait, wait, time out. So Cooper, so Cooper bringing out one guide every six months on how to fucking play a support hero is is bad, is good.

Fauwkz (02:43:33.604)
Yo, shout out Mash!

Fauwkz (02:43:49.026)
I disagree with all I disagree with everything Shibby's just said.

CaptainCoach (02:43:50.254)
Well.

Coach Mills (02:43:52.148)
Ha ha ha.

Fauwkz (02:43:58.842)
Cooper is a Cooper is a full time student while being also having to scrim four to six hours a day while having to va well out well while out while having to vaud review at the same time while also having to queue ranked. When has he got time to put out content?

ShibbyMR (02:44:06.886)
Esports not easy. We know esports not easy though.

Agreed. So what were so what were league players doing back then though? What were Overwatch players doing back then? You guys are around for early Overwatch League and early pro Overwatch. The top streamers that were also competitors, right? XQC was a comp player before he was a and then he got big streaming. Taymu, those those I I agree, but

Fauwkz (02:44:29.334)
Yeah, this game's only been out this game's only been out a year. And the and the and the top players are all 17 and 18. You're talking about people who were above 20, 22, 23, when they were playing the game. Let these guys graduate high school, brother. Right? They all stream. Most of them are partnered. They're just learning at this right and they're trying to stay at the top. Okay? And so doing that is hard, and then putting out content comes with time. They're gonna put out content. Okay?

ShibbyMR (02:44:41.704)
Yeah, but we have to What we some of not all of them are in high school. Come on, Foggs.

Fauwkz (02:44:58.88)
Th th they are. They're innately putting out content by streaming. They all stream. I don't know a pro player besides like some few that

ShibbyMR (02:44:59.636)
Yeah but

ShibbyMR (02:45:05.084)
Yeah, but you have to be the diff what is the difference between watching for for example, Forky streams a lot. I know Forky streams. I watch Forky streams, but like why why should I, as a player, as a casual person, say, shit, I want to watch Forky over fucking take your top five people, Mark Disney, Panu, fucking flats, all these people. Sure, sure, right? Yes, I agree, I agree. But how do you get them into the restaurant to know the food is good, Fox?

Fauwkz (02:45:24.302)
Because they're better at the game. That's always why we would watch a pro player.

Fauwkz (02:45:35.146)
You advertise it well.

ShibbyMR (02:45:37.886)
How do pro players do that? You can't just turn the fucking stream on.

Fauwkz (02:45:39.426)
No, no, no, not pro, not pro players, okay? The game advertises it well. They don't market at all right now for pro, okay?

ShibbyMR (02:45:47.134)
They they they don't market the I agree, I agree, that was my first critique. NetEast doesn't use their esports division as a marketing arm. But on top of that, that also falls onto the teams and the pro players to promote and create content and have their players

Coach Mills (02:46:01.189)
That that would actually be dope if I'm like

Fauwkz (02:46:02.874)
But no, there has to be there has to be viability for this there has to be viability for the resources being invested in it. Okay. Right now it's not profitable to do it. Right? Esports is typically a bleeding investment. Okay. And in order to actually for for s most pro esports besides the three, right? And so the way you actually need to get it, if you want companies to invest in your product and promote your product, you need the product to then be

ShibbyMR (02:46:19.358)
For pro teams, is you're talking from the pro team angle, right? For organizing Yes, yes.

Fauwkz (02:46:32.802)
marketed for them and good for them. And that's how you create a healthy player base with good viewership. Do the skins, do all that, and then you actually get a community that's going to last and last you decades, right? Like these other esports. Or else if you go casual, your esport dies, and then your casual community will go and flop to the next game and the next game and the next game and you'll slowly bleed, slowly bleed players. But if you get the commitment from the

ShibbyMR (02:47:02.141)
Okay.

Fauwkz (02:47:02.938)
Players, pros, streamers, and you keep them around with the content that you're doing for casuals at the same time, but you create the product for the pro scene, and then you're able to market that. That's how you create the healthy east esport.

ShibbyMR (02:47:17.288)
Like what but what is the biggest draw for pro team? Like, why why should the casual player watch Swamp Gaming? In your in your like, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you to speak from Swamp's perspective because you're their coach. You casual players want to watch their favorite pro players. And if their favorite pro players, like I said, make more content, do all that stuff, right? Now I'm gonna tune in. I'm gonna go watch Valentina, Forky, Crasmang, all these people. I want to go watch my favorite players fucking shit on other people. But if

We're not doing that on like a holistic scale. I'm talking all the pro teams, not just Swamp, but like on a holistic scale. If n if a lot of the players, like you said, if your reasoning is they're young, they're they're inexperienced, they don't know what to do. It's not like esports is new. We've been doing this for a while. You just said it yourself. Replicate what the successful esports games did.

Fauwkz (02:48:01.52)
Yeah, but at the same time you even go to the you e you even go to other esports, okay, and not every Valorant Pro player is a successful streamer or even relatively big. So it's it's just like you have to have the personality for it in every No, but y it's it's about the g it's about the company first and then the player second. Okay? If a player's gonna be successful streaming, they'll be successful streaming regardless. So

ShibbyMR (02:48:09.364)
No, of course not. No, of course not. But like but you need those people. Yeah, you need those people. And I don't think we have them.

ShibbyMR (02:48:23.112)
Who's our most popular pro player streamer? Who's our most popular pro player? It's Light, probably, or one of the three. Saipe. And then you have Korova, who's kind of in and out. And the how and what do they pull? Like what do they pull normally?

Fauwkz (02:48:25.552)
T No, it's Saipe.

Fauwkz (02:48:33.002)
No, then it would be T T K.

Fauwkz (02:48:38.26)
SaiPay's always at a thousand plus and SIPA and TTK is usually at like six hundred.

ShibbyMR (02:48:43.656)
Yeah. They need to be able to beat out the popular streamers and we need more of that. That's which falls upon players ga

Fauwkz (02:48:49.006)
There isn't very many popular streamers streaming the game. There's only like three. And they are beating the rest. So I like again, I I don't know, I don't know what your point is here. Cause again, like I I I'm talking about you need to grow the player base with investment to get companies to invest, to get sponsorships to invest, so that the esports becomes s more successful, so that resources come in, so that the pro players get paid more and then the game becomes more healthy.

ShibbyMR (02:48:53.3)
I I I think I think it's a I think it's a production issue. I think I I just

Coach Mills (02:49:13.448)
I mean I I I I would argue that they could give those resources right now. Like I I like they're printing insane amounts of money. It's like actually just a fucking metric fuck ton of money. I mean w when when the when the when the big dog comes down and says, yeah, let's plan out all two hundred heroes like today. Like you know that the game has made so much money it's insane and like Yeah, yeah. Like it was a big article where they were talking to it was like the it was like the guy that was connected to Neti's, like the contact at Disney.

Fauwkz (02:49:17.732)
Maybe.

ShibbyMR (02:49:18.716)
A probably

Fauwkz (02:49:22.254)
Yeah, maybe. But again I also I also am fine with not getting

Fauwkz (02:49:31.258)
Did they s w when did they say that, by the way? I I never saw that.

Coach Mills (02:49:41.992)
They already have like all these care like the they have the game planned out like many, many years. No. No, it they what they basically did is they gave they gave the green light. They gave the green light for this game for a very, very long time. But here this is what one thing I wanted to say, Fox, and I I think I'm curious if you'll agree or disagree. I think that a lot of these problems that we're having won't be problems the longer the game just keeps moving on. Like, no, w they they won't be a problem anymore.

Fauwkz (02:49:43.92)
Well, yeah, I know I know the leaks just came out of like the next like six characters, which by the way, shout out Eddies and Doctor Doom. my gosh.

ShibbyMR (02:49:46.964)
What?

ShibbyMR (02:49:52.712)
Yes.

Fauwkz (02:50:01.241)
Mm-hmm.

Fauwkz (02:50:07.908)
Won't be.

Coach Mills (02:50:10.98)
The longer the k 'cause like as the c well, like 'cause the the player base na like a player base naturally gives more competitive the longer the game lives. Like people get more ingrained. The people that are sticking around get more ingrained and more interested into the the high level parts of the game. Like you see that with like even a game like Valorant, where maybe early like it was just kind of like funny, fun streamers of the game. And now it's like pros. Like people are more interested in the pro scene than like people are all interested in getting better. I think we'll see the same thing.

Fauwkz (02:50:12.334)
Like what?

Coach Mills (02:50:39.56)
Where like we're still really early in the pro life cycle. Like there's gonna be problems right now. But like that the but the problems will be less on year two and they'll be less on year three and by year six like like comparing this game to like league today, it's like it's I mean, it's gonna be so far behind. Like we we need time. Yeah.

Fauwkz (02:50:43.65)
Mm-hmm.

ShibbyMR (02:50:44.061)
I agree.

Fauwkz (02:50:55.224)
No, I no, I'm totally, totally aware of that. I'm not saying we can get there quickly, but I'm saying in order to get there and to surpass that game, because again, if y this game could get to where Valorant is, but the only way it's going to get there is again, your casual community is going to be happy regardless. Why? Because the content train is, as you said, planned out for a long time. You're always gonna have content, content, content, content, which is not pro friendly.

But it's also not like we're we don't hate it. It's great for us too. We love it. It makes the game fresh and happy and things like that. It makes my life a little bit more miserable. But that's okay. Who gives a fuck about me? Okay? I but I I want the game Thank you, thank you, thank you. Right? But but but again, if you if you want this game to be able to reach the heights that the other thing needs, you need an esport attached, or else the PvP games just don't they don't live, they just die.

Coach Mills (02:51:34.324)
We we we care. We care bro. We care. It's okay. You seem like a good guy, yeah, we care.

Fauwkz (02:51:53.954)
Right? Again, Overwatch is doing so well right now. Why? Because Blizzard figured out how to how to figure out how to market for OWCS and their Pro League and drops and things like that. And content release. You got the content release, the casuals are happy. You drop six characters at the same time, and now you're marketing to pro. All they have to do is fix their product, and that game will be better than it's ever been. Revert it to 6v6 and Overwatch is alive. Okay?

Coach Mills (02:52:00.2)
Finally, yeah.

Fauwkz (02:52:23.72)
And Rivals, on the other hand, has a good product for the most part. They're doing a decent job balancing. I'm not complaining about the balance. I think besides these problem characters that get put in, they actually do a quite a good job balancing. But if we're talking about the direction that they need to go, the direction they're going kind of right now is kind of top down balancing. And the balance is pretty good. We talked about it earlier. Every single tank is basically viable. Every single support besides two is basically viable. Same thing in the tank roll. And DPS, the bad ones are.

Bat the the ones that are unhealthy are bad. The ones that should never be strong are bad. You've got a bunch of mid-table DPS, and then you've got your really, really good ones. That's a very healthy environment hero-wise, right? And so as long as they keep that up, the product's gonna do well. You gotta annihilate a problem character here or there, dyno, black cat, take him out back, shoot him, right? And then you're good, right? And the only thing the game needs to continue to grow is.

Grow its pro scene and then you're really gonna get the competitive scene. You'll get more streamers that way, right? Et cetera, et cetera. Right. So the the only thing Rivals is missing right now is streamers and investment in pro. If you do that and you figure out how to do that in the next year or two, right, your game's gonna be successful for a long frickin' time because you've got the branding behind it, you got the content schedule behind it, and you've got a good product. As long as you don't screw up and go roll queue and five E five and this nonsense, you're gonna do a good job.

Coach Mills (02:53:47.412)
I will fucking crash out by the way. That's why I quit Overwatch. You know, I'll actually

ShibbyMR (02:53:49.128)
Ha ha.

Fauwkz (02:53:50.222)
Yeah, I'll leave. No, I'll leave so fast. Right? But again, but again, right? What you don't wanna see, what you don't wanna see is a game like Deadlock come around and poach half your pro scene. And the con and the level go way down because money's going into deadlock in the pro meta because Valve is investing tons of resources. Right? You don't want that to happen, because that's gonna hurt the game. That will hurt the game. Right? You'll see s

ShibbyMR (02:53:53.251)
Rokyo, I'm leaving. I'm leaving. I be

CaptainCoach (02:54:15.488)
I think that's already been happening, to be honest.

Fauwkz (02:54:17.358)
You'll see streamers leave and and everything like that, right? Because again, the big streamers right now, J3, Flats, like that, they watch party. That those are their big content streams, is they watch party the pro matches. That's how they get their good viewership. Right? They've got a good relationship with Netties and they watch party all the pro matches. You want those people to be happy and get more people like them? You gotta invest. So. And that comes top down.

Coach Mills (02:54:41.906)
so kind of rotating Okay. Okay, go on.

ShibbyMR (02:54:43.698)
I I I was just gonna say I we're also I'm also tacking on to that. It's like I think we're speaking as if our casual player base isn't that high. I think a stat just came out like a couple weeks ago where what is it like weekly on on console side, 1.8 million players log in on PlayStation alone, by the way. This isn't even talking about like like like we'll Mills, by the way, I don't think we'll ever lose our cat like when Grand Theft Auto comes in, yeah, sure. Fucking ghost town. Like half of our half our population is gonna be gone.

Fauwkz (02:55:02.074)
this game is insanely huge on console.

Coach Mills (02:55:10.13)
Yeah, yeah, it's gone. I mean ev everyone, every fucking person is losing it, yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:55:13.416)
But the pe yeah but the people that are gonna play Grand Theft Auto were tourists kind of anyway to Marvel Rivals, right? Like the casual player base regardless, one point eight million on on PSN, Playstation. Yeah. When they release on Switch

Coach Mills (02:55:23.826)
I mean the yeah, the pool of Marvel is just insane. Marvel's just the fucking goat, yeah.

Fauwkz (02:55:27.386)
That's a little optimization though thing. If they fix the optimization, the reason it's so big on console and it's not as big on PC is optimization. If they fix the optimization on PC, they they don't have an issue with that on console.

ShibbyMR (02:55:34.226)
Yeah. I agree.

Coach Mills (02:55:35.72)
They be they've been needing to do an optimization patch for like every patch, like since

ShibbyMR (02:55:39.166)
Well they took configs out and now like

Fauwkz (02:55:40.196)
They're slowly doing it. It's it's a slow leak instead of a burst, so

Coach Mills (02:55:42.653)
Yeah.

Yeah, I like I just think this game's gonna look so much better year three than it does right now. Like it's every year it's gonna look better. Like Let's fucking go. He better be a shield tank, baby. Give me a shield tank. No, no well yeah, a flying shield tank that can fucking lightning you. I don't fucking I don't fucking know. I don't I don't know. wait wait, do y'all do y'all review the comics? Do y'all do y'all know about the universe? Fox, chip? A little bit. Well cause cause to c to close out

Fauwkz (02:55:48.942)
Mm-hmm. Doctor Doom will be in the game, of course it's gonna look better.

ShibbyMR (02:55:49.606)
I agree. I don't yeah, I agree. Thanos will be in the game, bro. No, he's no he's gonna be a brawl tank. Brawl tank. He needs to f

Fauwkz (02:55:56.388)
No, he better fly. He better

Ayy, I don't care. Give every ability. Let me have all.

Fauwkz (02:56:09.73)
A little bit. I don't know, are you guys are you guys older than me or am I unk here?

ShibbyMR (02:56:11.5)
I I I read comics growing up. I might be the oldest. I'm th I'm I about let me go first. I'm thirty. I'm thirty now.

Coach Mills (02:56:16.07)
I mean well, okay

Fauwkz (02:56:19.139)
I'm thirty this year.

Coach Mills (02:56:21.158)
so you're thirty right now, you're twenty nine right now? And then Cat Tacoach is the technically the oldest. He's forty. No, no, he's he's thirty-two, thirty-three, thirty-six. I I I'm I'm twenty nine as well, Fox. You and I are the same age. April thirteenth. Are we really close? you're the youngest. But I I I you know, I I have two kids, so I feel like I'm actually the fucking oldest. I I feel really old.

Fauwkz (02:56:22.884)
G G's

I'm twenty nine, yeah.

CaptainCoach (02:56:30.188)
Like fifty. Yeah, for thirty six.

Fauwkz (02:56:34.074)
Cheese.

Fauwkz (02:56:38.032)
What's your birthday?

ShibbyMR (02:56:38.345)
Okay.

Fauwkz (02:56:40.752)
Shit, I'm the youngest. Let's go.

ShibbyMR (02:56:49.34)
You are the oldest. By that, bro. Yeah, kids age you. Kids age you.

Fauwkz (02:56:50.256)
Fair enough.

Coach Mills (02:56:50.29)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, every every every kid is aging me like at least three years. I'm already balding, bro. It's it's over. It's fucking over for me. so yeah. but the last thing that I like to do, we like to do often is we like to say what hero do we want to see next. If there's one hero, you could talk about the character it would be from a show or a comic and then what what it does, like generally what it does, what role. do you have any specific

Fauwkz (02:56:53.071)
Stress wise.

ShibbyMR (02:56:55.262)
Yeah.

ShibbyMR (02:57:15.698)
I've been let me let me out. So my I gotta I I so for context, I read comics growing up as as younger, like I'm a little obviously we're all old. So for me, I need him to be a vanguard. I need iceman in the game, ASAP. Like I need Iceman, ice because the way because he is so he can create clones, they're all same durability as he is. His traversal, as long if they don't fuck up to traversal, where he can shoot ice.

Fauwkz (02:57:17.604)
Go shib.

Coach Mills (02:57:30.504)
Ooh. Iceman. Iceman. That would be dope.

Fauwkz (02:57:31.184)
I haven't heard that one. That's a good character. That'd be fire. I

ShibbyMR (02:57:45.244)
And he's flying around the map like Iceman as a vanguard that can create clones of himself to like tank and like has like a atomic freeze ability. Whatever. I don't care what they do. But for me, the two things they have to get right, right is his traversal and making him a vanguard. I'm I'm a big Iceman fan, bro. That guy, Omega, he is like the coolest Omega level mutant in my mind because he he has beaten Legion and he he did it by freezing his brain so he couldn't

do anything. He couldn't adapt. You couldn't do anything. A lot of cool shit about Iceman. Iceman's he froze hell over. Like, I don't know. That's just cool to me, but I'm a big Iceman guy. So give me give me Vanguard Iceman.

CaptainCoach (02:58:21.358)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (02:58:24.006)
Ice man. Okay. Okay. Okay. I I like that shit. That sounds cool. what about you, Fox? You got any?

Fauwkz (02:58:30.52)
I mean, the the the one character I've been asking for to come into the game is scheduled to come in the season eleven, allegedly, Doctor Doom. So I just hope I just hope he's awesome. All this triple roll nonsense, I don't want it. He better be a Vanguard, and he better have the ability to fly for a short duration. Okay. And as long as his kit is like, I don't want him to be permanently flying like Angela, but he should have like an ability like the Cyclops F, where you can just go into the sky, and then if you can hover for a little bit, like a short duration and shoot from there, that'd be

Coach Mills (02:58:37.352)
Doctor Doom, yeah.

Coach Mills (02:58:47.036)
Okay. Let's fucking go.

Fauwkz (02:58:59.568)
Total gas. I don't need him to have a shield or anything. He could have like a block or something, right? Make him mega busted, make him better than Gambit on release, something like that. But if there was another character, because he's already scheduled to come out, they should release Kang. Just release the biggest, baddest villains in this game. Now again, you're probably gonna stagger releasing people like Doom, Kang, and Thanos. But Kang is the other one. Once once Doom comes out, the only character in this game that I want released is Kang the Conqueror. These he's the coolest person, he'll probably be a DPS.

CaptainCoach (02:59:07.261)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (02:59:12.348)
ShibbyMR (02:59:13.252)
Fauwkz (02:59:29.252)
He'll just kill everything. Right? Right. Him and Doom are kind of similar in kind of how they fought too, if you if you like the movies or what like the comics, right? And so I think that'd be kind of cool as you you'd have like e and a villain in each kind of role. Maybe not strategist, but th th they they could probably release some Omega sick character for Strategist.

Coach Mills (02:59:30.196)
Yeah, yeah, basically.

ShibbyMR (02:59:31.102)
Mm-hmm.

ShibbyMR (02:59:39.593)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:59:50.185)
So, so mini story on stream. Someone asked me what hero what what what new character would I be if I was a rivals character? And I was like, what do you think, chat? What what do you think? What would I be? And someone said, you'd be Modoc. I was like, I don't know who that character is. I was like, I was like, what? I'll search it up. So I searched up fucking Modoc, and it's this fucking guy. I And so now my chat calls me fucking Mill Doc.

CaptainCoach (03:00:04.322)
Ha ha

Fauwkz (03:00:04.758)
MODO!

Fauwkz (03:00:11.696)
This is a big ass head. This is a big ass head.

ShibbyMR (03:00:16.936)
He's coming. Apparently he's been leaked. Modoc's been leaked, bro.

CaptainCoach (03:00:17.08)
Fue grave

Coach Mills (03:00:18.174)
So anyways, I'm rank one mil dog. I'm I'm claiming it right now. No one gets to fucking main that character. When he comes out eventually I'm yeah Exactly. I don't know what the fuck he's gonna do. he's probably a support or something. like mind controlling people. I don't fucking know. Anyways, that's what

Fauwkz (03:00:23.63)
You're gonna be a big ass square and a yeah, head in a chair?

ShibbyMR (03:00:30.484)
Yeah, he's probably

CaptainCoach (03:00:32.782)
Mm.

Fauwkz (03:00:33.774)
I think they need to take a break from releasing X-Men for a little bit though. I know I like they they've they've released a ton of X-Men lately. Okay. I think they need to chill on the X-Men for a little bit. Okay. It's like how many how many in a row have we gotten or something like this? Nightcrawl is gonna be Nightcrawl is gonna be cool.

Coach Mills (03:00:37.384)
They are a lot.

ShibbyMR (03:00:38.994)
Yeah yeah.

Coach Mills (03:00:42.344)
Yeah, it would be sick. But but but but but night but what about nightcrawler, Branho the problem is X-Men are X-Men are cool as shit. That's just Jubilee, Nightcrawler, like there's so many fucking cool ones. There's so many Spider Man Spider Man has a ton of villains you could have. Green Goblin, Dock Ock, the Sandman.

ShibbyMR (03:00:49.426)
Nike Carler's gonna be dope.

Fauwkz (03:00:52.088)
I know. But it's it's so many though. Every single next next character is like an X-Men. N every single character is like an X-Men.

ShibbyMR (03:00:55.688)
Gh Ghost Rider when he comes. Ghost Rider is gonna come in and yeah, he's just gonna

Fauwkz (03:01:05.26)
Green Goblin is apparently coming. So at some some point.

CaptainCoach (03:01:05.686)
I that'd be w how hype would it be for that if they release all the Spider Man villains at once? Like you're talking with Overwatch?

Coach Mills (03:01:11.373)
vulture

ShibbyMR (03:01:11.912)
Like a sinister six, like just

Fauwkz (03:01:12.324)
What do you guys think? Okay, what do you guys think about that? Like big hero releases where they have like multiple at the same time? I'm not the biggest fan of it. I'm not the biggest fan of it.

Coach Mills (03:01:17.264)
A whole bunch? It would be crazy, but I if if we if

ShibbyMR (03:01:19.296)
I did you not like the Fantastic Four Drop, Fox?

Fauwkz (03:01:24.79)
No, not really. I I like w I like one I like one hero at a time.

ShibbyMR (03:01:26.631)
I thought it was the best marketed one.

Coach Mills (03:01:28.314)
If if if we how do I put it? If if we didn't get heroes this often, then maybe it would be cool. But it would be cra like I cannot even imagine. Like a like just think of the last four releases. What is it? Dino, black cat. What were the two before that? What was the order? White fox White Fox, Dino, Black Cat, Elsa. Like imagine if they released all four of those characters at the same time. Like like in their release state.

Fauwkz (03:01:31.394)
It's easy it's easier to hype it.

ShibbyMR (03:01:44.424)
White Fox and then you had

Fauwkz (03:01:48.876)
Elsa.

CaptainCoach (03:01:50.306)
Also.

ShibbyMR (03:01:50.75)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (03:01:57.016)
W Dave, the the the only way I think it would be okay if they took a break. Like if you took if you took like you're going season by season, okay, and then you tell the community, hey guys, we are heavy focusing on optimization for the next two months, and we are gonna make it so that you can play this game on a toaster. Okay. But to reward you guys for your patience and thank you guys for this, in three months we're gonna release three characters, right?

ShibbyMR (03:01:57.075)
I don't

Coach Mills (03:02:01.256)
That would yeah, that's the answer. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:02:02.39)
Mm.

Fauwkz (03:02:27.064)
And we've already got banked up and we're just gonna drop quickly. Okay.

Coach Mills (03:02:29.516)
And at the same time, they rework like four other characters. That'd be sick.

Fauwkz (03:02:34.07)
Yeah, th I think they the th right now they've just been doing like reworking abilities. They've never actually like done what like Overwatch has done and like total rework. Yeah. I I th Yeah, I think there's only like three that really need it, right? It's like Storm, Black Panther and Adam. That's like it.

Coach Mills (03:02:39.986)
I wanna I wanna full on that would be so sick. There's a lot of characters they could do it for too and it would be sick.

Coach Mills (03:02:54.1)
Storm Black Panther. For a lot for a while I thought torch, but they kind of did rework him. So like they basically did. Yeah. Right. Yeah, like he they re They re They reworked him. They reworked him in like four patches, but they did eventually rework him. all right, so final thing we'll talk about. scale from Ron one through ten. How do you feel about patch eight point five? what do you think should be? One through ten.

Fauwkz (03:02:59.266)
Yeah, they they s do they just slightly change their abilities and how they function and then they slowly increase their power level. I like it. I like the way they did they done torch.

ShibbyMR (03:03:25.438)
True. as of right now, with the limited amount of time we've had with ranked was like five days. I I probably give it like a seven. It's not my most enjoyable patch yet, but I'm like bad like at people that are complaining that it's like the worst patch or XIZ, I think it I think it's a good patch. I think there's less must bands than there was last season. Like you said, like if you got one double band, you gotta play against some like fuck shit.

Like this season it's not as bad. Like as a tank player, I can be biased and say, like, Wolverine's not fun to play against and all that stuff. But like you can ban him out and it's not that big of a deal. Your life is fine. So yeah, I'll probably give like a seven point five. Not my most enjoyable. I wish some other tanks were a little bit more fun to play, right? but that's seven point five. It's pretty it's pretty enjoyable.

Coach Mills (03:04:04.937)
Okay, it's up.

Coach Mills (03:04:11.742)
Okay. coach, we never got your hero that you want.

CaptainCoach (03:04:16.68)
I mean, well, I've answered this one so much. I saw Gore the God Butcher for season ten. I'm really excited for him. yeah, for sure. You think so? I'll probably not leave a hulk for anybody, but a damage like a DPS form for Hulk. We're talking about like Ultron Tank. I would see like a DPS Hulk, you could do like Tank Iron Man. There's so many cool things they could do. So that and Thanos has always been mine, but

Fauwkz (03:04:23.066)
Do you want him to be a tank though?

ShibbyMR (03:04:24.968)
He's gonna be a duelist. He's gonna be a duelist. He's gotta

Fauwkz (03:04:26.712)
You gonna leave Hulk for him though, Coach?

Ha ha ha.

ShibbyMR (03:04:31.826)
Ha ha ha ha.

Fauwkz (03:04:46.852)
You could do some crazy things it. I hope they don't I hope they don't for these big releases like Thanos, Kang, Doom. I hope they don't do the triple role thing. I think that was a Deadpool unique s thing that they could do. And there's other cool things that they could do for other characters. And I think Deadpool uniquely fits that because of his like fourth wall breaking and things like that.

CaptainCoach (03:04:56.333)
Mm.

ShibbyMR (03:05:03.644)
Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

CaptainCoach (03:05:05.902)
That's fair.

Fauwkz (03:05:07.256)
Well w w wrong.

Coach Mills (03:05:07.304)
Is there any other character that breaks the fourth wall in all of Marvel?

CaptainCoach (03:05:10.158)
Squirrelgirl. I think Squirrel Girl does, right? Didn't she like kill the god of the universe or whatever?

ShibbyMR (03:05:17.604)
What? Well, I don't know. yeah. Well, she has like a hundred percent win rate in the comic. She never loses or something like that.

Coach Mills (03:05:19.304)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't I don't forget no. Okay.

CaptainCoach (03:05:19.32)
Galactus.

CaptainCoach (03:05:25.409)
Yeah, it's some weird bullshit.

Coach Mills (03:05:26.152)
What a what what about you, Fox? What do you think? One through ten. What's your

Fauwkz (03:05:26.305)
Okay. Alright, so I'd give the patch notes a 10 out of 10. I think the patch notes were so good. Okay. Like basically, maybe like a nine. Okay. They were really, really good. Besides Mantis is kind of the outlier, everything is good. Now the meta that we're in, maybe like a six, right? I think it's a little bit too triple support happy. But that's one character change away from being bad.

Coach Mills (03:05:35.623)
okay.

Fauwkz (03:05:58.914)
Or from being good. Okay? 'Cause I think I think we're almost in a situation where all the supports are good, all the tanks are good, enough of the DPS are good and viable and healthy, and poke, front to back, death ball, and dive are all almost equally and triple support are all almost equally strong. It's like a few character adjustments away from being a extremely healthy game.

Coach Mills (03:06:26.366)
And then they're gonna ruin it with whatever hero they release next.

Fauwkz (03:06:29.626)
Well no, 'cause and GK, to to to credit Net E's, I think that's why they like releasing DPS, because DPS don't change the metas. They just they just exist and slot in to the meta, right? And I think characters like main tank characters and specifically supports are very, very you have to be very careful about what you do with them, or else it might break your game. Right? So

CaptainCoach (03:06:29.955)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:06:36.24)
A hundred percent I agree. I a thousand percent I'll a hundred percent agree.

CaptainCoach (03:06:37.398)
Mm.

Coach Mills (03:06:48.83)
They yeah.

Coach Mills (03:06:53.394)
I a hundred percent agree. Yeah. Hundred percent agree.

Fauwkz (03:06:55.298)
Yeah, so th th they they need us be very careful about supports. Tanks less so, but DPS just do whatever the heck you want. So I I know there's people who are like they need to take a DPS break. It's like no. No, they don't. They're fine. Just keep on just keep on going one, two, three, one two, three, one, two, three. Yeah. Yeah, just keep on going one two three and you'll be fine.

Coach Mills (03:07:08.286)
Just one one one one one yeah yeah yeah yeah. Yeah, I mean it's not like every DPS is viable anyway, so it's like it doesn't matter. Yeah. Yeah.

Fauwkz (03:07:14.84)
Yeah, some of them are just like they're they're necessarily bad, right? Like like Squirrel Girl and and Wanda need to stay where they are 'cause they're I I call them I call them the marijuana of the DPS category. They're they're just gateway drugs to getting into playing DPS. Which is a good thing. You should have those characters. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Coach Mills (03:07:23.186)
Yeah, yeah.

Get the fuck off of Mary Jane. Yeah, that's crazy. but yeah, and I g that's a good point to say like like to tank and support players that disagree with what he's saying here. We can give you terrible support and tanks to put them in the fucking, you know, the the bottom half of DPS that the DPS players have, or you can just be happy with one one one one one one one. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:07:28.044)
ShibbyMR (03:07:31.572)
Stephen A. Smith, bro.

Fauwkz (03:07:42.736)
Yeah, you don't want more dinos.

Fauwkz (03:07:48.824)
Yeah, you don't you don't want more you don't want more dinos. You want more tank pools. You want more like tank pools and more Captain America's, less ultrons

Coach Mills (03:07:57.215)
How how how would you feel like how would you feel about D.Va in Rivals? You think she would break the game? Would she be really strong?

Fauwkz (03:08:03.716)
Nah. It's basically Angela. It's just i i you Yeah, no, okay, l you're talking about like actually D.Va in Rivals? yeah, that character would I mean that character's the greatest thing of of all time in Overwatch, so it's it's in six v six. Yeah, so well it that's that's Magne that's Magneto Shield too.

Coach Mills (03:08:06.324)
I mean defen defense matrix is kinda crazy, I feel like.

Yeah. Legit diva. Just make di like I mean they basically

ShibbyMR (03:08:15.058)
Mm.

Coach Mills (03:08:18.715)
Right.

ShibbyMR (03:08:19.924)
Yeah, being able to eat damage is eat ultimates? How many ultimates could you eat?

Coach Mills (03:08:23.57)
Well 'cause I my my argument is that D.Va kept D.Va kept hit scan in check for a very, very long time in in in Overwatch. Like like I think if D.Va never existed in Overwatch, the game would have played out entirely different.

Fauwkz (03:08:34.136)
Yeah. Angela's just diva with CC. So if you made a different version of Angela without CC and with guns, you've got D.Va. I don't think you need the defense matrix, because Angela fundamentally kind of does what D.Va does. She just has a pin, unfortunately. If you remove the pin and replace it with a gun.

ShibbyMR (03:08:44.402)
And rockets.

Coach Mills (03:08:52.436)
Yeah, but I but I but I w I want to walk on top of an Invis and prevent her from healing anybody for four three seconds. I Nope. You can Okay, what about you, Captain Coach? What do think? one through one through ten. What you think overall?

CaptainCoach (03:09:05.94)
Wha what I give the patch notes for our last podcast we went over. I think I think I gave him a six point five. Yeah, which to me is is like good. I think I gave it like a B minus in like my patch notes video, which is, you know, a step in the right direction. I think it this patch is gonna kinda expose the fact that, you know, obviously to a lot of people poke very, very easy, unfun to play against. And it's my hope is now that this patch is Yeah, yeah. I'm I'm I'm I can't

Coach Mills (03:09:09.33)
We we we rate it pretty low, yeah. Six, something like that.

Fauwkz (03:09:29.354)
This guy's saying it's fun.

ShibbyMR (03:09:32.732)
Mm-hmm.

Fauwkz (03:09:33.144)
Nobody get like nobody likes getting one shot, Mills. Nobody likes getting one shot.

CaptainCoach (03:09:35.21)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:09:36.572)
Yeah, well that's why you play as the one shotter man. I don't know what to tell ya. Play better heroes. It's I don't make the ru Like I've I've given up on trying to you know f I'm I've given up. I've given up.

ShibbyMR (03:09:39.828)
You either one shot or become one shot, dude.

Fauwkz (03:09:40.052)
can't beat him, join him, I guess.

CaptainCoach (03:09:46.136)
'Cause like I yeah, I I I I agree. Like I I I think dive is still good, but I think poke is going to be the clear favorite. So I I'm hoping what this patch does is like, okay, now we kind of see that poke is a little strong. Do the moon night change to all these heroes. And I just kind of want to see the general output of everything just go down like a little bit. So like I'm I'm with you. Just like nerf everything a little bit and then kind of play into what makes each hero unique. So it's not about like raw stats with everything. So I I think this patch is like good.

Fauwkz (03:10:12.419)
Mm-hmm.

CaptainCoach (03:10:14.626)
I think it's good. I just want to see the numbers come down a little bit and have it be a bit more strategic and a bit more

Fauwkz (03:10:19.024)
Bro, I want I want Neddies to call me and just just send me let me let me make one patch, bro. Let me make one patch. Just give me one patch. G give me one, Guang Guang. I I'm gonna buy Xiang a beer at Lan, bro.

Coach Mills (03:10:21.972)
Call me double G call up. Give me one. Give me one patch.

CaptainCoach (03:10:22.382)
please. This give me one patch. No, I'm I'm right there with you. So yes, to play Yeah, to play six six as well. I th I it's kinda not fun as a tank right now, but that's mostly just 'cause nobody wants to tank. So it's like it kinda sucks in a lot of g I I've just I'm solo tanking half my games. So that's just not fun.

ShibbyMR (03:10:25.384)
Give Fox the keys. Give Fox the keys.

Fauwkz (03:10:43.768)
You don't like it?

Fauwkz (03:10:49.045)
yeah, that's the that's miserable, yeah. Yeah.

ShibbyMR (03:10:50.544)
I mean, yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:10:52.92)
But the yeah, when that you actually do get a good quality game, it it feels great, which is to me about for a tank player, probably like one in four, one in five games, it feels good. So it's like I I think I still think there's issues, but I I I like where the game's headed for sure.

Fauwkz (03:11:00.581)
Yeah.

Fauwkz (03:11:07.536)
Yeah, I wonder how you can actually fix that. Incentivize more tanks besides just adding more. 'Cause the 'cause the tank characters are all fun. Yeah.

CaptainCoach (03:11:10.562)
Soft roll here.

CaptainCoach (03:11:15.171)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:11:15.22)
Yeah. They I mean they've done just about as good as they could do to incentivize people to play it. Yeah.

Fauwkz (03:11:18.296)
I like it. Yeah, I I don't think they need to really adjust anything besides just keep on adding more characters.

Coach Mills (03:11:22.59)
Just keep yeah. That's pretty much it it. yeah, I I I think this patch was way better than than I thought it was gonna be. The gambit changes mattered more, the dyno changes mattered more. Like I I do admit that I was pretty off of my evaluation about just how much they were gonna matter. It's like a lot of little things, but it adds up into like a really nice big picture. And I've just I've been having much more fun games. yeah, I think it's a good patch. I I'd probably give it like an eight point five nine overall. I think it's good.

CaptainCoach (03:11:25.71)
Hundred percent.

Fauwkz (03:11:49.37)
Cyclops of users, this guy. This is absolutely shameless. This guy's like this guy's like I'm I'm I'm having so much fun with the new character.

Coach Mills (03:11:50.611)
Yeah No I w When when I when I get to what no na When I get to play my fucking Cyclops it's a ten out of ten easily But this is what happens three of my first started the games the first time I I I selected Cyclops auto-locked him someone goes if you don't get off that character I'm throwing the game And I say th I say throw the fucking game and we lost, okay? Then the second character, my teammate self bans me after I hover it.

CaptainCoach (03:11:51.244)
I know this guy's on Cloud Nine.

ShibbyMR (03:12:10.032)
Ha ha ha!

Fauwkz (03:12:10.991)
Ha ha

Coach Mills (03:12:18.12)
And then the third game, the enemy team bans it. And then finally the fourth game, I get to play him. And it was great. It was fucking great. I won the game easily.

Fauwkz (03:12:20.366)
You d okay. Do you do do you guys ever care if your if your character gets banned? I never care. I never care.

CaptainCoach (03:12:26.188)
I used to.

Coach Mills (03:12:26.394)
If it's Cyclops I care! It's so much fun! The character's great!

ShibbyMR (03:12:27.412)
wait, but that's a that's a good character. You want okay so but you're okay with people first timing characters in your games, Mills?

Fauwkz (03:12:33.444)
Repackaged Elsa and Phoenix, bro. Who cares? Just go play the other two.

CaptainCoach (03:12:35.362)
No, no.

Coach Mills (03:12:35.472)
It's the character is so fucking easy. You just shoot at shit. He's easier to play any hit scan, he's harder.

ShibbyMR (03:12:40.478)
But are you cool no top out are you cool with people first timing characters in your games, yes or no? Yeah, you're a fucking psychopath.

CaptainCoach (03:12:42.478)
Mm-mm.

Coach Mills (03:12:46.248)
Yeah, a hundred percent. Just but but here here's the rule though. Don't fucking suck. Don't suck. If you walk at a spawn and you get value, then it's fine. But if you go 0-5, then swap the fuck up. That's a easy rule. That's an easy rule. Like just just play the character well. Like that's it.

Fauwkz (03:12:53.605)
The rule.

Fauwkz (03:13:04.078)
Nah, if you're in Captain Coach's games, keep running it down. If you're in my game, swap.

Coach Mills (03:13:06.854)
Okay.

CaptainCoach (03:13:07.758)
my god, I knew it. Don't you think this game though would benefit so heavily from some kind of system introductory system to teach people actually how to play hero shooters? Because I do feel like that is a big issue, why the game quality

Fauwkz (03:13:21.604)
I don't know how you would make that though without like help from

Coach Mills (03:13:23.32)
W when when you when you click when you when you when you're selecting cap, there's like a little side panel that says tips, you click it and it's Fox going, if you wanna dive, and it's like a little inform infographic. Embrace just they just gotta embrace it. They gotta embrace it. yeah, yeah, yeah. They should. They actually should. all right, Shibby, where can people find you?

ShibbyMR (03:13:23.346)
The Pathfinder program. Don't we have a Pathfinder thing or something like that?

CaptainCoach (03:13:32.238)
Ha ha ha.

Fauwkz (03:13:33.144)
I don't think dude, I I don't think I'm I I don't think I'm PR friendly enough on my stream to be to be the their poster child.

ShibbyMR (03:13:38.356)
You gotta watch Fox play cap first. Hold on. Wait a minute.

CaptainCoach (03:13:40.332)
We should let's get nerf get nerfed pool.

Fauwkz (03:13:41.506)
I kinda let it fly a little too much, bro.

CaptainCoach (03:13:46.614)
They're full. That would be good.

Fauwkz (03:13:50.724)
But netties I'll help you in any way you want.

ShibbyMR (03:13:53.284)
Coach Mills (03:13:53.396)
let's fucking go.

Fauwkz (03:13:54.805)
I will, I will. Well I'm Hit me up, Guangguang.

CaptainCoach (03:13:55.15)
Anyway.

ShibbyMR (03:13:58.621)
think I think tutorials would be cool though. Like you click on a character and it shows like it shows a pro player breaking down the character and doing a tutorial. Hey, crazy thought.

Fauwkz (03:14:08.336)
Yeah, but they pick some bad pro player to do it, right?

ShibbyMR (03:14:11.24)
I yeah, I agree. It has to be someone that has personality that

Coach Mills (03:14:12.732)
I mean any bad pla player is gonna be better than like how say it! my

CaptainCoach (03:14:12.77)
Say it.

Fauwkz (03:14:13.776)
Dude, I had a name. I had a name in mind. I was gonna rip, bro. I had a name. I had a name. I was no, no, no. I'm I'm nice guys, guys, I'm nice.

ShibbyMR (03:14:20.712)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (03:14:23.113)
No This guy's fucking toxic man. No.

ShibbyMR (03:14:25.892)
Fox's gonna go on stream and say it. He's gonna say, yeah, so this is the pro player I thought of, guys.

CaptainCoach (03:14:27.606)
Fauwkz (03:14:27.672)
No, we're just real, bro. You you you you're America's you're America the America's region's truth teller and you get called toxic,

CaptainCoach (03:14:30.144)
You'd you'd be great on Hulk's all these suppressed emotions.

Coach Mills (03:14:36.286)
That

CaptainCoach (03:14:37.11)
Fauwkz (03:14:38.416)
Okay.

ShibbyMR (03:14:38.652)
No, but you Fox, you have gestures you have gestures privilege.

Coach Mills (03:14:39.144)
Hey d you you know you know speaking the truth is toxic, right? Like you ever go to a family gathering, you cannot say anything truthful. you look so good. yeah, exactly. Wait, you're not dead already? like that y no one's gonna want you back. Like you gotta lie a little bit. but w w where can people come to support you, Shibby? Where can people find you? Where can people support you?

Fauwkz (03:14:45.968)
Yeah, I called yeah, you call your aunt fat and all of a sudden, everybody's mad.

ShibbyMR (03:14:57.266)
No. yeah, yeah, yeah. Should be MR pretty much on everything. The only one I'm not MR on is Twitter. I guess that should be cast, but I use that for casting opportunities. Yeah, I post on YouTube twice a week, Wednesdays, Sundays, stream four times a week, TikTok. You guys have probably seen me around, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, should be R on everything and I'll probably be streaming this week most likely because I just I missed the opening patch. I missed Friday through Monday. I was on vacation.

CaptainCoach (03:15:23.566)
Coach Mills (03:15:25.3)
Let's fucking go where you go.

ShibbyMR (03:15:27.734)
I was just local. I went up north, hung out with my girlfriend and did some nature stuff. It was kinda dope. Sometimes guys, I'm telling you guys, leaving the world and touching grass and coming back to rank, that's the key to ranking up, guys. I promise.

Fauwkz (03:15:40.036)
Why is this guy shaking his head?

CaptainCoach (03:15:40.834)
Never. Never.

Coach Mills (03:15:42.288)
well my my wrong No my my No no no no well for one I live in Texas and leaving my house is fucking miserable because it's hot as shit. And two, I just have really bad allergies so I just don't leave my house ever.

ShibbyMR (03:15:42.364)
It's true. Am I wrong? Am I don't go touch grass and then go come back to rank.

Fauwkz (03:15:52.858)
So you guys is you you you guys just need to be in a better area. I'm about to be in Texas on Thursday, also.

Coach Mills (03:15:56.072)
Yeah. yeah? Yeah, yeah. Where what what are you visiting for?

ShibbyMR (03:15:56.54)
Unlucky.

Fauwkz (03:16:00.356)
Well our team house is out there. So I'll I'll be back at the team house for swamp. Yeah, my team is complaining about it, yeah.

Coach Mills (03:16:02.626)
nice. It's gonna be it's it's hot as hell. You're gonna wanna stay inside. Yeah, you're not gonna wanna leave the house. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just about everybody is.

CaptainCoach (03:16:04.287)
CaptainCoach (03:16:09.726)
I I used to live I used to live in Texas. Texas is great, great state.

Coach Mills (03:16:13.222)
No, yeah, I I'm a fan. I'm a big fan of Texas. I love Texas, but not not not for like the three months of the summer or four months of the summer. So

ShibbyMR (03:16:17.204)
Yeah, I was just there for a land.

CaptainCoach (03:16:20.494)
Nice.

ShibbyMR (03:16:21.3)
Yeah, I was in San Antonio for a rivals land. Got to cast that. It was dope, dope. The river walk was

Coach Mills (03:16:23.47)
wait there was a rivals land in San you know, I live in San Antonio. I don't even know fucking li rivals land. okay, yeah, yeah.

ShibbyMR (03:16:28.276)
it was collegiate. It was collegiate. Maybe that's why they probably didn't. Yeah. But it was dope. It was dope. Yeah. Riverwalk was cool. A lot of good food there. it was a full conference. NE C C They run the whole collegiate conference. actually pro players. I got to see like Flamet and a couple of the Fisher guys there. There's a lot of there's a couple like pro players that compete collegiate, which is really cool. So that was dope.

CaptainCoach (03:16:28.398)
Coach Mills (03:16:34.44)
What what was it for? What was it for? What what college?

Coach Mills (03:16:50.32)
that's cool. Okay. Fox, where can people find you to support you? See your your hot takes roasting other pro players? Let's fucking knew Okay.

Fauwkz (03:16:58.956)
Yeah, it's Fox on everything, just spelt the way it is right here. only platform I'm not just Fox on is Twitch, where I'm Fox underscore FPS.

Coach Mills (03:17:07.976)
Nice. Fuck yeah. And y you also just open up private coaching. so let's hope you get like a thousand sign ups and then you just cannot you cannot

Fauwkz (03:17:11.246)
Yeah. Bro I I I dude it it's it's actually filling up so fast. I dude it I might I might have to decrease my availability 'cause it is keeping me too busy.

Coach Mills (03:17:21.054)
Yeah, I'm telling you. I'm telling you, you need to get on the academy. You need to get on the academy so you can coach a group class instead of a one on one. It's way more time efficient.

Fauwkz (03:17:26.872)
Yeah, good group co team coaching is way more fun than individual coaching. Individual coaching is so boring.

Coach Mills (03:17:30.62)
Yeah. Yeah, you can't trade money your time for money like that. It's just you're gonna run out of time. but but yeah, and Yeah, nice. all right guys. Well, thank y'all for coming on. Down below, let us know who had the best and worst take of the pod. And make sure to like and subscribe and thank these guys for coming on. Make sure to check them out on all socials and we'll see you in the next episode. Peace.

Fauwkz (03:17:34.968)
Yeah. It's alright though. I I I do I do still enjoy it. So

CaptainCoach (03:17:53.954)
Bye.