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Sales leaders! Want to build strong teams without burning out in the process?
Introducing Surviving Sales Leadership, where each episode is a practical conversation with experienced sales leaders and elite sales coaches about what actually works.
Coaching reps, managing pipeline, forecasting, enablement, and navigating growth without everything feeling harder than it should.
No “just hold people accountable” nonsense.
Real-world tactics and strategies that work in sales right now.
If you’re a sales manager, head of sales, sales director, or revenue leader who wants better results, better conversations with your team, and a little more confidence in the chaos, this show’s for you.
Subscribe and start surviving sales leadership today!
Tom Boston: Every bad sales hire
steals time, trust, and energy,
and most leaders feel it long
before they admit it. Because
hiring isn't just filling a
seat, it's morale, it's
momentum, it's whether you're
spending your time coaching your
best people or quietly trying to
fix the wrong hire. In this
episode, we get real about what
hiring looks like right now.
Bryan Mulry is joined by Elaine
Tyler, founder of Venetrix, and
Tim Ogle, sales coach and
transformation specialist.
They're going to break down why
modern hiring feels chaotic, how
gut feel gets leaders into
trouble, and what strong sales
leaders do differently, from
building talent pools before
they need them to running
selection processes that
actually reduce risk. This is a
practical, honest conversation
about making fewer bad hires and
setting the right people up to
win once they're in. I'm your
host, Tom Boston. And welcome
back to the Surviving Sales
leadership sessions from MySalesCoach,
let's get into it.
P.S. Did you know we've just
created the Modern Revenue
Leaders Sales Coaching Manual?
It's 48 pages full of insights
on how you can successfully
coach your sales team, whether
you've got high performers, low
performers, new sellers, or old
sellers. We've got the
frameworks to coach them all.
Grab your free copy of the
manual today.
Bryan Mulry: The agenda for
today is going to be pretty
layered towards how we would run
a hiring process, but before we
get into that, let's get into
who's on this call today. So,
I've got myself the in-house
coach here in MySalesCoach.
For those of you who haven't met
me, I'm Brian, but I am mostly
the host of today's session,
because I am not the expert on
hiring and onboarding.
Thankfully, we have brought in
actual experts on hiring,
hiring, and onboarding today.
The first one is Elaine Tyler.
So, Elaine is the CEO and
founder of Venetrix. Rather than
me rocking through what Venetrix
is and getting it slightly
wrong, Elaine, would you like to
introduce yourself?
Elaine Tyler: Absolutely, my
name is Elaine Tyler. I run a
business called Venetrix, and we
are a specialist organisation
that places SDRs, account
executives, customer success
managers, and sales leaders into
fast-growth SaaS, cybersecurity,
and fintech businesses in London
and also in the USA.
Bryan Mulry: Speaking of
coaches, however, Tim is a sales
coach with MySalesCoach, but
also he's a sort of a sales
transformation specialist, a
leader, and again, rather than
me butchering your intro, Tim,
would you like to introduce
yourself to the group?
Tim Ogle: Yeah, hi Brian. Thank
you. Yeah, I'm not a recruiter,
but I do help a lot of companies
with recruitment, but it's more
about making the right choices,
getting the right people, and
then doing the right things once
we're on board. And it's all to
be fair, part of like getting
sales transformation right, you
get the right people in place or
adapt the ones you've already
got, and then that flows into
sales success, that generally
what happens, but yeah, it
generally involves a lot of
hiring and getting that right,
and it's amazing how many
companies don't get it right, or
they rely on things like gut
feel, which I'm sure we'll
explore more about.
Bryan Mulry: Exactly, well,
look, okay, we have got a
one-off session about hiring,
ramping, onboarding, and making
the best decisions. There's a
couple of reasons why we picked
this as our first key topic. The
key reason here being there is a
significant cost to miss hiring.
We've seen some key trends over
the last 18 months, but rather
than me explaining to you what I
think is happening, I
Elaine Tyler: think the way I'd
probably describe it is pretty
chaotic, and there seems to be
lots of job adverts out there
and 1000s of people trying to
apply for them. I heard a stat
that actually 10,000
applications are made per minute
on LinkedIn, and it just kind of
makes me feel like, how can
those applicants be relevant to
those jobs? It creates
challenges for candidates, it
creates challenges for hiring
managers as well, and overall
everybody just seems to be lost
in this wealth of information
that's flying in, but with no
real clear way of actually using
technology to maybe really help
cut through the noise and find
the right people to join their
business, and for people to find
the right opportunities that are
going to give them the career
they're looking for.
Bryan Mulry: Yeah, that sounds
pretty chaotic. I'm saying that
as somebody who I'd most would
see it on the candidate side.
Tim, have you seen that done on
the leadership side over the
last little while,
Tim Ogle: I see a lot of
leadership going, "How the hell
do we pick the right person? And
it's largely because there's
just so many applicants and so
many candidates, and how do you
just get the right sort of
people you want? And the second
thing, how do you attract the
right people? It's so easy to
apply for jobs now. LinkedIn
have almost dumbed it down to a
clicker button. Here you go, and
no thought went to the into that
process, and as a result of
that, you just get spammed, and
it's not good from either side.
From the candidate's
perspective, you often don't
hear anything back ever. And
from the leadership side,
they're sat there going, How can
I possibly review 300
applications? Like, you just
can't. It's impossible. And in
the times
Elaine Tyler: that take that, it
would take somebody to do that.
Sometimes jobs could even have
changed, because elements of
technology have changed what
companies are really looking
for. Every sales leader is
battling like a very unstable,
unpredictable economy, so
they're also set with the
challenge of like, do we really
need this person or is this the
person that we need in three to
six months.
Bryan Mulry: Yeah, and then as
you're hiring for that person,
let's say you need it in three
to six months, as you're hiring
for that, you decide we need
this, we don't need this. We're
going to go down the AI route.
Things have changed. This one is
key. Actually, one that I've
seen quite a bit recently is
people go starting to go down
the process of hiring SDRs, and
then questioning the value of
SDRs when they see things like
clay, or they see a fun video on
LinkedIn that tells you that you
can automate the whole process
for a 10 or a week. I'd love to
know a little bit more about
sort of how people are changing
their minds or what's happening
here, and where the uncertainty
is currently coming from.
Elaine Tyler: I think that
people are just unsure about the
impact of technology and what
that means for roles in general,
because let's face it, hiring
people is in itself laced with
problems, challenges, expense.
So naturally, when faced with
all these tools that people feel
that they could take advantage
of it seems like an easier
route, but then on reflection,
for businesses to think, well,
you know, am I growing talent
from the grassroots level that's
going to furnish my more senior
sales team in the future? Will
people actually buy into
conversations with AI if they're
trying to make expensive
purchases? And ultimately, all
of these are just unknowns right
now, so that kind of creates
this stop-start motion around.
Should we do it? Shouldn't we do
it? Is it the right thing to do?
And ultimately, because of the
ever-changing nature, people are
worried and scared about making
decisions right now.
Bryan Mulry: There's a lot of
risk in this. Actually, moving
on to that, I mean, look, let's
just look at the cost of.. I
mean, this is the high stakes
job. This is a high stakes
decision. Just looking at a
couple of stats from typically
our sort of software industry,
in that you know, a mis-hire in
sales can wipe out about 30% of
that rep's first year value on
day one. Most firms admit to
hiring at least one wrong
salesperson, and gut feeling, as
you mentioned there, Tim, only
really predicts like top
performers 20% of the time. The
other 80% of the time it's a bad
indicator of top performance.
Almost half of sales managers
admit that they don't know how
to recruit effectively, and
Elaine, I don't put words in
your mouth. I bet the other 57%
just wouldn't admit it. And then
it can replacing a failed sales
person cost one and a half
times, or almost two times, the
annual compensation of that rep.
There is a lot of fear in this,
and that's why people turn to, I
mean, even giving you guys a bit
of big peek behind the curtain
here. Inside of MySalesCoach,
a lot of people are coming to us
asking, are there assessments I
can run? Is there a way that we
can interview people or be
prepared better for
individualised interviews
earlier on in the in the
interview cycle or the selection
cycle? We'll come back to that
later, but before I even move on
here, sort of, how Elaine, Tim,
you guys see this on a daily,
daily basis, do these stats, do
they sort of do they do they
align with what you're seeing on
a, on a daily basis.
Tim Ogle: Yes, and more extreme
is, I think, my short answer on
that. The longer answer, miss
higher sales, it's way more
costly than 30% of a salary's
first year rep, and the costs go
way beyond that, because
there's, they're so involved,
you know, cost of client damage,
reputational damage, missed
opportunity, it just goes on.
So, you can, you can quickly end
up with hundreds of 1000s of
pounds or dollars. Second thing,
92% of firms admit hiring at
least one wrong salesperson. I
think they're being coy, because
if you go and speak to most
sales managers, how successful,
and you look anecdotal, I know,
but off a sample size of
probably 20 sales leaders in the
last 12 months, how successful
you're hiring 50% best, like
it's literally a 5050 so 50
good, 50 not good. That's fairly
honest, because I asked for that
in a very private forum.
Elaine Tyler: It's also, I
think, very damaging for team
morale. So, you know, when
you're a hiring manager and you
bring somebody on board and it
turns out that person was the
wrong hire, not negative,
potentially about their own
opportunity. And I think that,
you know, one of the reasons why
this happened so much is, you
know, as we know, great sales
people don't necessarily always
make great managers, and no way
is that a bad thing. Some people
are cut out to be the person on
the front line, interacting with
the customers every day, and
that's their specialist skill.
And some sales people are
supposed to be managers, and
they turn out to grow to grow
those, those that skill set. But
either, if you're a salesperson
or a manager, it doesn't mean
that you're a great interviewer
or a great hirer, because that's
a whole different skill set. And
the question is, like, how are
people really taught that, and I
know that there are businesses
out there that do put time and
effort into making sure that
this is seen as a core part of a
sales leader's activity, but
for, you know, many businesses
out there that are small and
strapped for resources, your
first experience of learning how
to interview an SDR is becoming
a senior SDR, and then being
invited last minute into the
interview, of like, you jump on
this, and you know, tell me what
you think of this person. And no
benchmarks have really been set.
They don't really have, like, an
idea in their mind of, like,
what they're actually supposed
to be looking for in an
interview. And, obviously,
interviews themselves are
flawed, because they're an
invitation for somebody to come
and present their best selves,
aren't they? So, at that moment,
you're meeting hopefully the
highest version of that person,
their capability, so you know,
is the person able to sustain
that level of performance into
the job, and if you're
inexperienced and you haven't
done a lot of times and no one's
really told you how to do it,
and you have a benchmark, I can,
I think that's a really
difficult task to be asking
sales people and sales leaders
to do.
Bryan Mulry: Yeah, it's almost
like people are winging it, and
what ends up happening with
this, without this set process,
without a set way of looking at
it, if you are hiring people,
you spend so much time coaching
the wrong person rather than
enabling your best people,
because if you've got someone on
your team that's struggling,
what are you going to do? Only
help that person, invest time
and resources into the person
that's struggling, rather than
taking someone from 80% to 100%
you're taking. Someone from 20%
to 50% and it's not just the
waste of money and resource, it
is also the waste of coaching
energy and management time and
business effort into someone who
was never going to be a good fit
in the first place.
Tim Ogle: If you are starting, I
mean, there's probably leaders
on here thinking about hiring,
or they've got the team of
people and going, well, how are
they all from a transformational
perspective? I would always
recommend that you've got the
team, you've got like there'll
be a real mix of capabilities in
there. The thing I always find
is there are people who always
surprise you, so start with your
template of who you've got there
and work on them and coach them.
So you may not have the perfect
person in your team right now,
but you could adapt them and
make them amazing. However, do
not hire non-amating people,
take the best fit you can, like
it's a different benchmark
you're working to at this point,
when you're hiring, take the
best you can, and that sort of
feeds into your statement.
Bryan Mulry: Here's what we're
going to do: we're going to run
through each different stage of
the candidate selection process,
and make sure that we are
following best practices as we
go through that. Starting off,
the way people hire has changed.
So, in the old time, it used to
be you post a job, you get a CV,
you'd shortlist the candidates
based on CVS, do a couple of
interviews, you'd make a
decision on those, and then
you'd onboard them. Nowadays,
nobody knows what headcount they
have, so one day they're told to
hire, the next day they're told
that it's frozen. TVs are
AI-generated, so they're all
using the same words with the
same people in the same realm.
Because of that, you find it
very difficult to read candidate
fit, because everyone is using
the same systems to say the same
things, just sometimes the
numbers are different. You then
end up having to spread the
decision across multiple people,
because you've got multiple
interviews with different teams,
all of which need to come to a
consensus. And as a result, when
the candidate asks, How am I
doing in this process, you go,
Well, look, I've, you know, I'll
have to ask John about what he
thought Steven said about you,
and there's no coherent process
to it. And as a result, it gets
incredibly muddied, and towards
the end of it, someone high up
in the business just goes,
"Look, we're fine, let's just
put this off another quarter,
and we got to restart again. So,
our job today is to make sure
that this changes. There has to
be a better way. Let's start
with the talent pool.
Elaine Tyler: So, I think that
you know, over time, we've heard
about the death of various
things within the sales
industry, perhaps you know the
SDR function that was widely
discussed at one point, much to
my dismay, but I think the death
of the job advert is like
definitely something that you
know I've really seen and
experienced, because I think
that what's happening right now
is that not only have we've got
AI-generated CVs, but we've got
AI-generated applications and
AI-generated CVs that have
generated against the job advert
that's been posted, and
employers are just receiving
hundreds of these, so it's
literally completely impossible
for them to differentiate
between them. So, I think that
looking at non-traditional ways
of creating talent pools is key
to actually uncovering
candidates that would actually
be relevant for the role that
you're hiring for. So, one of
the things that we are very keen
on at Venetrix, hopefully for
those of you connected with, I'm
sure you know what I'm about to
say, is LinkedIn content, and
the team at MySalesCoach are
also absolute stars at that as
well. I think that when you
encourage people within your
company, particularly in the
sales function, if that's where
you're looking to hire, to help
build the company brand by
agreeing, what is the message,
or what do we stand for as a
business, and how are we going
to portray that on the tool that
is LinkedIn? If you ask people
to build their own personal
brands that people could buy
into again, get that sense of
personality. You might find you
get like direct messages from
people where it's a bit easier
to maybe digest who they are
because of the way that they're
writing that personal message
about the opportunity that you
are potentially talking about on
those channels. It's very
different and less faceless than
a 250 word, very similar to the
next job advert that's been
posted on LinkedIn jobs that
even the candidate can't
differentiate between, so I
think personal brands and
company brands, Venice Ricks,
we've got 11 team members and
over 100,000 followers across
the people who we are connected
with, and obviously a curated
pool of SaaS sales people within
London and the US. I also think
that a strong referral scheme
can give organisations a head
start, so everybody you employ
probably knows a handful of
strong people from businesses
that they've worked with before,
communities that are in
friendship groups, whatever it
may be, university alumni from
way back when, and have you
asked them to dig down into
right, what, what, who do you
know now in your professional
network, who could be somebody
who joins this business, and you
could incentivize people around
that financially. Again, going
to cut through that noise, and
you're immediately directly
talking, potentially, to a
better quality candidate. Events
and meetups, so I've seen
companies run recruitment events
on site, where they, you know,
in the evening, invite people
in. You probably need to have
that brand in the first place,
and that channel to be able to
promote it, but again, you're
like getting face to face in
front of people, it could be
like somebody else's event,
where you know there could be a
catchment of the type of
candidates that you'd like to be
talking to, so job adverts
create noise. The question is,
How can you more directly get to
the quality candidates that you
want to have a conversation
with, that you want to be able
to differentiate your
opportunity in front of live and
direct,
Bryan Mulry: Tim, what comes to
your mind? We'll talk about
talent pools.
Tim Ogle: Couple of things, I
mean, everything Elaine said, I
completely agree with. I saw a
job advert from an organisation,
not technical at all, completely
left field. You go, what on
earth is Tim looking at here?
It's a business I know locally,
they're a charity, to be fair,
they look after horses, they're
called Happer. So, if you're
interested in horse and you
won't go and check it out,
they're called Half of Horses, H
A P P A. They put out the most
amazing job advert a week or so
ago, and I liked it so much
because it wasn't a job advert,
it was basically an insight into
their charity, what they do,
what they believe in, what they
value, and in doing that,
they're attracting the right
sort of people into that
conversation. Go and have a
look. Honestly, you're
completely left field. It's also
a nice organisation to do some
great work for horses, but that
aside, it was just a really good
example of a very different way
of advertising a job. So, like,
it second thing I was going to
add to what Elaine said:
networking. Yes, definitely. I'm
not a sales leader now. I don't
currently recruit any sales
people, although I do help in a
lot of recruitment exercises for
clients that I work with. The
one thing I always say to every
sales leader is always be
recruiting, like you never know
when you need to hire somebody,
like it may - you may have no
application, no requirement
today, but you don't know when
the next person is going to fall
sick, resign, go leave, you
suffer, you sack, you know,
whatever happens, that is
unknown. So always be hiring,
always be on the lookout for
talent, and that means having
conversations and coffees with
people, meet them in networking
events, meet them online, you
know, take that time when it's
not a recruitment exercise to
get to know them a bit, they'll
warm to you, you'll warm to them
if they're the right fit, and it
means that when you need to
hire, you often have a short
list of people ready to go, you
already know the top 10 people
you're going to go, oh, this job
come out, de fancy it, and that
speeds up the job so much, but
it does take a bit of effort,
it's an attitude thing from a
leadership style, so just being
open to conversations with all
the people out there who might
potentially, in the future, be
people, and I found one of my
best sales leaders in a previous
life. I'd known him for 12
months, I was introduced to him
by a referral that said you two
would get on. It wasn't until 12
months later I actually had a
requirement for that person, and
I only interviewed one person,
and they got the job, and they
were brilliant.
Elaine Tyler: I also think
another style that of people
presenting their roles, I think,
works really well, and you know,
when I've read it, I've enjoyed
seeing it. I also think helps
with some of the problems of
hiring the wrong person,
struggling to onboard people,
and eventually losing them. It's
really highlighting the
challenges about the job,
instead of the nice, the
niceties, and the benefits. So,
you know, almost the kind of
aligned message internally of
this job is not for you if you
know you don't enjoy these
things, basically, which are
going to be really tough, and I
think of some of the most
successful businesses that I
have hired for, they have told
me in the interview process,
look, you know, we're not going
to put the candidates off per
se, but we're going to be
really, really candid about how
hard this job is, because news
flash sales is hard and people
need to be prepared for that
coming in, because otherwise, if
it's shock as a part, the
onboarding process, or a few
months down the line, you know,
the targets come as a shock,
you're going to find yourself in
a sticky situation.
Bryan Mulry: Okay, so we spent a
good bit of time now here on
talent pools. Once you've got
your talent pool, you've got a
job, we now to go through sales
process, and look, most sales
leaders we talk to is like
hiring is a distraction. I have
to do my hiring work before I
can get through my actual work,
and my actual work is my one on
ones with my coaches, or, sorry,
one on ones with my reps. And
then, after that, I've got to
coach them. And a lot of
interviews just look like this.
It's like just blocks of time:
interview, 123456, Yeah, fine. I
like number two. Kick it on to a
next process. Next stage, what's
the next stage? Don't worry
about it. HR will deal with
that, so when we look at the
selection process, like what
does a repeatable high-quality
selection process actually look
like? And really key here, what
assumptions are people making
that is costing them time and
effort? Tim, I start here with
you on this one before and move
over to Elaine.
Tim Ogle: First thing, I really
please, we changed the title of
the slide, because I know we
debated in the last 48 hours,
because it started with
repeatable interview process.
So, I'm glad we turned into
selection, because it's wider
than just interview. I think
we've got to be more creative
than ever in like what we put
into this. You've got to get
people off balance a bit,
because it's so easy to come up,
like they do with the CV. Here's
my formulated, like Chat GPT
tuned CV in interviews, the
same, like they can come up with
a standard answer. So, we've got
to put things in here, which are
going to put them off kilter,
and that could be things like it
could be role play, it could be
examples, it could be case
studies, it could be it could be
assessments. I, me, and like
myself, coach, we both use OMG
here, but yeah, there's others
out there, but you know it's
really good to see some sort of
candidate assessments going on,
because it just helps filter in
what's going on here. I also
think in the selection process,
make some of the application
difficult. It can be too easy to
apply for jobs, and if you put
in a couple of steps, which are
going to take an extra half hour
of thought and effort to make it
work, you'll rip out 90% of the
applicants, but you'll get to
the ones who actually want the
job. So, make it a bit more
difficult, even though things
like easy apply happen in
LinkedIn. Go look, you get loads
of applications, I think it's a
crazy thing to do. I'll stop
there, because I'm sure Elaine's
got loads of good ideas here,
and loads of thoughts.
Elaine Tyler: So, I think you
know, going back to one of the
points we highlighted earlier in
the, in the slides, is trying to
avoid the decision paralysis at
the end is a key part of
designing the selection process.
So, ultimately, what are we
hiring this person to do, and
why needs to be a key
understanding that all the
stakeholders are aligned on, and
then from there you can create a
scorecard again that everybody
has agreed on around what
therefore needs to be
demonstrated in the process, and
how you're going to test that
through the different mediums,
some of which that Tim has just
mentioned. Then everybody needs
to agree on how we're grading
that on an A, B, C. Know what
does excellent look look like,
what's good, what's, you know,
not acceptable. And then that
needs to be heavily discussed,
and it is time consuming. It
really is inconvenient when you
showed me that diary before,
Brian. You know, it sent shivers
up my spine, and I know how that
feels, and I know how that feels
for the people that we partner
with as well. But ultimately,
investing that time and getting
stakeholders aligned properly
will save you time in the long
run of the miss hire and the
cost of that and the pain of
that. I also think that as part
of the selection process there
needs to be clear understanding
of who is selling the job in
what way when, because a big
danger can be that companies
design a process where they know
somebody needs to move perhaps
the SDR is an SDR, SDR manager
first, then the sales leader,
and then you know, if it's
dependent on the size of the
company, then there's maybe
there's a sign off with the CEO,
and each of those people end up
discussing the same things when
they're selling the job about
the growth plans, or they all,
they all mention the top SDR in
the team and what makes them so
good, but for the candidate,
that's actually not a process
that adds value because they're
hearing the same kind of case
study in these examples again
and again, so actually making
sure that the process is
properly curated through not
only what it is that you're
looking for, but also the
information you're intending to
share to get the candidate
buy-in. So, once the selection
has been done, you're then
successful in getting that
person across the line, and just
one final point as well, on like
selection process and making
decisions about people, and
obviously you've mentioned
earlier in the presentation
about gut feel, and it might be
a little bit controversial here,
but I do put some store by gut
feel, particularly when it's
bad, because I feel like quite,
I feel like quite often
companies, they know there's a
niggling doubt, and they can
feel that red flag, and somehow
or another, it isn't coming up
in the selection process that
they've defined on the
scorecard, but because of a lack
of other applicants and a lack
of choice, they end up hiring
that person anyway. And then
they kick themselves three
months down the line, because
they thought, well, you know
what, I knew that, but I didn't
trust gut feel. So, although I
don't believe in processes
completely unreliant on gut feel
for somebody like me, who's been
interviewing people for 20
years, every single day, non
stop. It's like a footballer
kicking a ball, isn't it? Like,
understand which angle to kick
it at in order to score the
goal, you know? Just maybe I
think being tuned into that
sometimes, particularly if it's
a red flag, you know, you need
to explore that and not just hop
over it because you're in a
rush, you need to make the high,
you're under pressure. All
Tim Ogle: right, if I can jump
in there, like I think that's a
really good point, Elaine, the
last one you just made the gut
feel, because I agree it has a
place, but I agree it's also
it's more relevant in the
negative sense, like if
something's niggling, you don't
do it, or put a new step in, put
an extra step, which I knew you
haven't planned, and go and test
whatever your niggle is, go find
a way of testing that thing. I
can remember somebody I hired, I
won't name them, I won't name
the company that might be
listening, but they were a bad
hire, but on paper they were a
good hire, and all the people
around me were going, they're a
good hire, they're a good hire,
and like, and it was a pool, a
panel people, and we were using
like a strong competency
framework to score everybody,
and they'd scored highly,
something just niggled me, and
when I hired them, I wish I
hadn't. Anyway, I've never done
it again, it was like the first
time, and last time,
Bryan Mulry: yeah,
Tim Ogle: yeah, listen to you
got feel specially negative, and
put in an extra tip to test it,
and it comes back to the
competency side, how do you get
the process right? I think
you've got to look beyond, and
I'm sure Elaine coaches, you'll
coach your clients on this.
You've got to look beyond the
sort of feature-led of, like,
can they sell, and how many
conversations are they having?
Some of the obvious stuff that
you might be asking for in a
requirement, but we've got to
get to behavioural things here.
We've got to get down to their
values and behaviours of who
they are as people, because
that's the stuff that is really
difficult to change, if we've
got to get competency scoring
around things that are important
to me, like you know, curiosity,
like how good are they at
getting deep into client
understanding, drive and
commitment. One, I like
personally like bravery, are
they going to push themselves to
the edge, and are they going to
put themselves in like an
ambiguous, scary place? That's
ever more relevant now, because
companies are moving so fast,
like you can't just sell the
same thing like next week you
did last week, because the
products are changing, the speed
of evolution is changing, so
we're going to be looking for
different things in what we're
looking for here, and we've got
to build the competencies around
it, and look for evidence in
those competencies to make sure
we're scoring them well.
Bryan Mulry: Well, it seems like
part of that process, part of
that interview process should be
instead of asking, you know, do
you have any doubts about this
person, and have it be a tick
box, have it be a debrief. What
doubts do you have about X
person? And really add it into
the process of, look, let's
surface these immediately,
because a lot of miners will
sort of go through the flow
here. They'll go right, I got to
do these interviews. Do they
tick all the boxes? Yeah, sure,
they're not. It's not that
they're not thinking about it,
it's that it's only taken up 10%
of their brain space, but the
biggest decision that they could
make for the success of the
team, or the next little while.
So, how do we future proof that?
Almost like, as though somebody
is at their, is at their lowest,
and running on fumes.
Elaine Tyler: And a red flag for
one company can be a green flag
for another. You mean, like,
we're not unilaterally saying
somebody is going to be good or
bad at sales. It's whether
they're going to be right for
this, this company, in the way
you intend to engage with
customers, at the pace of your
sales process, and how
collaborative you are, and how
many times you get together in
the office, and all of those
factors, which make an
environment one where someone
can thrive.
Bryan Mulry: Needing a playbook
is wonderful if you want to work
at Salesforce, and really bad if
you want to work in a startup.
How do you judge that or not?
Once we have this process,
people need to do something that
is incredibly scary in 2025 They
need to make a decision.
Decision, so how do we actually
make this hiring decision, and
how do we avoid decision
paralysis? Who wants to go first
there?
Elaine Tyler: Well, okay, I
think I think certainly, like
referring to the scorecard that
I mentioned is part of it, isn't
it? So, like, first of all, is
it the right candidate? And then
I think that the best kind of
benchmark that I can give to
companies right now is because
things are changing so rapidly,
it's trying not to make a
decision on what has happened to
your business that day, and it
is very difficult, you know. If
you are, as I am, a founder of a
small company, sometimes a day
can feel like a really long
time, and the day could feel
like a massive success, and also
a massive disaster. And it's
very difficult to remove the
veil of that when you're trying
to make decisions that are as
important as this one. So, I
think really kind of focusing
back on the reason why you
decided to interview for the
role in the first place, based
upon three months of data from
your business that shows
potentially where the gap is in
your pipeline, your sales
process, or what it is that
you're trying to achieve, and
then understanding this is why
we decided to do this. Are we in
the position that this is going
to solve this problem?
Bryan Mulry: Yeah, that's a
really key point here, is like
we feel like we have to make
reactive decisions all day,
every day, but this can't be one
of them. We can't decide that
we're going to hire this SDR
because we're low on pipeline
now, because it'll take them six
months to fill the pipeline. So,
what needs to happen? Yeah,
actually actively making the
decision. Tim, you were going to
say something there,
Tim Ogle: just backing what
Elaine says. The timeline of
these decisions were not six,
they're not six month calls,
these are 12 month plus, you
know, you're hiring somebody for
the next two, three years, in
all likelihood that their likely
lifespan in the role you're
hiring, should they be
successful, is going to be two
years minimum, and then they may
move on, progress, promotion,
whatever, you know, there's
there's things in there that
could happen, or they stay in
the role and just keep
performing, but either way, it's
a two year call, if you've got
the business appetite and the
stability to sort of see at
least like 12 months into the
future, then yeah, you should be
hiring. And how do we avoid
decision paralysis? I think it's
it's making sure that you've got
buy-in at the most senior levels
of the organisation, that yeah,
we have this, this is the
business case, this is this is
the role, this is what they're
going to do, these are the
expectations of the role, and
really build that business case
well as to why the hell we're
hiring this person. And when you
hire them, we'll talk about this
in a bit, but make them a
success, like, set them up to
win, but we'll cover that
shortly. I think if you get that
senior level buy-in before you
get to the point of, oh, should
we, should, shouldn't we make a
decision, then it's easy to make
the decision. The second thing
about the decision paralysis is,
like, are they the right person,
could we find somebody better,
and I think this comes back to
what we were discussing before
about the sort of the things
we're actually trying to select
based what we're looking for,
and a lot of companies just go,
"Oh, I want to say SDR, I want a
salesperson who's worked in my
industry, they've sold this many
things, and they've been
successful, and they've got five
years experience, and they
possibly got a degree. It's a
really vanilla, boring list of
things that doesn't tell you
whether the person you're
talking to is any good or not.
So, I think it gets back to
being really clear as a sales
leader what you actually want in
the person, what's the
behaviours and traits and values
you want this person to have?
Because if you can get that
right and you get a good match
with what you're trying to
achieve as an organisation, it
becomes really clear when you
found the right person in front
of you that the more that sales
leaders can understand actually
what they want in the people,
and by that I mean things like
drive, commitment, curiosity,
bravery, inquisitiveness, list
the words you want to see, but
get clear on what you want to
see and what examples you want
to see, or whether demonstrated
curiosity or they've
demonstrated that ability to
uncover the unknown in a client,
and get past the nice to have,
and just get to the real meaty
problems that the client is
trying to fix. Get to that
evidence point, and it becomes
so easy to make a decision if
you're really woolly on what
you're looking for, and you
haven't thought through those
behavioural competencies,
decision making is tricky,
because you're basically
throwing guards at a board with
a blindfold and hoping to hit
20, but you're not sure.
Elaine Tyler: I think also
important in hiring sales people
who the go-to market function,
so when you're hiring this
person and planning for the
future, if you're hiring an SDR,
are you going to have the
account executive in place and
ramped up, and you know, in the
right place to be able to close
the leads that that person's
bringing in, have you got the
customer success to manage those
clients that are eventually one,
not necessarily just about this
one person, it's about
considering the wider tapestry
of what it is trying to build in
your vision of your go-to market
function.
Bryan Mulry: Yeah, hire to make
sure you admire when you make
sure you have the capacity that
if they're successful, you're
able to actually support the
capacity that I guess caused all
the problems when the, in the
age of, you know, growth at all
costs, which is kind of gone
now, but I should be intrigued
from an offering perspective.
What mishaps have you guys seen
from people submitting offers?
Because a lot of people almost
like overlook that part of the
process. Oh yeah, we'll just,
you know, send an email and
it'll, and it'll go through, and
they'll just say yes or no. What
are people overlooking when it
comes to that section of the
process, and why is it trickier
than what you may think,
Elaine Tyler: having an agent,
gotta say it, but basically,
obviously, recruitment agents
can add massive value throughout
this process, can't they?
Because they could be giving you
a constant view that a candidate
will may, may not want to share
with you about how they actually
feel about the opportunity,
repetitive processes that they
are in, what their timelines are
for decision making, the things
that they like, the things that
they don't, the questions that
they haven't asked, the points
that maybe they're unsure about,
that people like me can advise
hiring managers along the way
list, and they're not quite
seeing the progression examples
that they're looking for in the
company they want to join, they
haven't quite seen how
somebody's earned that
commission, so I think that
having an agent is a massive
advantage in the offer process
because. Because we could
candidly understand where
they're at with other
opportunities, understand what
those look like from a from a
compensation package, and we can
also be that extra voice that
says listen from an objective
perspective, this is what I
understand about this company
within the wider industry, this
is what you would be joining if
you were to join this company,
and quite often at that moment I
do think that people can feel,
if they've not had very many
jobs before, not been through
the process very many times,
overwhelmed, under qualified to
make a decision about what is a
good company to join, because
every company has been selling
them, selling them to the
candidate in the process.
Tim Ogle: I'm just going to play
devil's advocate for a second in
this category. I know you, I
know your company know what you
do, you do well, but there are
recruitment agents out there who
are literally just trying to
force fit both sides of this
game, you know, they're
literally trying to force fit
candidate to company, company to
candidate, with not always the
best interest of both parts in
place, that you know, and the
result of that will be short
term deal, short term
relationship with that client,
and I know for what you have
long term relationships with the
clients, but I have seen it, and
I've seen it done to clients who
I work with, and I've seen it,
people try to do it to me when I
have been hiring in previous
lives,
Elaine Tyler: totally,
Tim Ogle: so I think it's like
be pick a good agent, I think is
probably the better idea. If you
are going to use an agency, pick
a good one,
Elaine Tyler: bet your agent,
meet them in person. I try and
meet every client that we've
never engaged with before in
person, and try and join the
dots of like who they might know
that I've worked with, so that
they get a third party reference
and understand did they make a
hire from from with our aid that
was good. But yeah, bet your
agent. Absolutely.
Tim Ogle: I think the other
thing to add, Brian, is the
offer doesn't start with the
offer. It's a bit like sales.
You've been testing the
candidate all the way through.
You probably had a conversation
early on in the exercise about
what are you looking for, what
you're hoping to get. See, and
the more you probe and explore
that, the more you can
understand about what they're
trying to achieve as a person.
So, when it comes down to the
offer point, you know exactly
what to pitch and how to pitch
it, and I know I wouldn't send
an email. I mean, I would, but
that's not the first step. The
first step is to ring them up or
book in a call, either way, but
communicate verbally or in face
to face, but verbally is
probably more practical because
of the speed you've got to work
at, and talk it through, and go,
look, this is what you're
looking for, this is what we're
able to offer, this is a
situation. What do you think?
Get instant feedback, because
probably what you're offering is
not necessarily dead and buried
there, there's probably some
room for manoeuvre, and there
might be some other things in
there which you can't always
second guess, and it's not just
about salary,
Bryan Mulry: yeah, it's getting
deep into personalising the
offers as well, as you know,
knowing what levers you can and
can't pull on that side, gosh,
there's a lot in that, but let's
say everything's gone well,
okay, so let's say we've got a
talent pool, we've met people in
the wild, we like them, and a
job has come up, and we've
interviewed a bunch of people,
and we find that we've had a
process where we knew what we
were looking for, we knew the
competencies that we wanted, we
knew, I guess, not only what we
wanted, but what we didn't want,
and we're able to match that
with a candidate, we second
guessed ourselves internally to
make sure we found our own
biases, we made the conscious
decision to make a decision.
Sorry, that's a key piece in the
sort of want to highlight. In
order to hire and make a hiring
decision, you also have to
decide that you're going to make
a decision. Now, that almost
needs to be very explicit here.
It's a question that comes
earlier in the process of, are
we willing to make a decision on
this, or are we just fishing?
Then, once you make the offer,
we then need to get into the
next piece. Now, before I get
into the next piece, Tim,
Tim Ogle: it's an important
point. Once you've decided to
make an offer, move really fast.
Candidates are not good,
candidates aren't around for
long, so go quick. If your
selection, the whole selection
process is too long, you're
going to lose candidates. You've
got to be fast. Speed, speed of
decision, speed of like how you
do this, decisiveness, you know,
go with it. But build the
process while you'll get there.
Bryan Mulry: See, we've all been
decisive. Someone that we maybe
make an offer, someone accepts
it. Now, what? How do we avoid
just giving them a laptop on a
notebook and going, "All right,
you've got your job, you got
your job's bec, give me a 3060,
90, and let's see what happens.
How do we make sure that the
beginning of their time in the
job is as thoughtful and
impressive and authentic to the
business, as we've just spent
all of our time on the interview
process. Elaine, you want to go
first? To
Elaine Tyler: yeah, I think one
thing that Nelson McCurban, a
fluencer, if you know her, I
think one of the things that she
said, I think it's particularly
relevant, probably for more
junior people in those in their
early stages of their career, is
I think she had had everybody
sign like a like a kind of
office code of conduct, really,
just to set the benchmark of how
everybody operated together as a
team, and it was like these are
a set of ways of working that
we've all bought into that kind
of show how we show up for each
other every day in the office,
and I think that, like, starting
that really early in someone's
mind is better than trying to
course correct later on, where
it feels like that candidate's
not quite hitting the norms that
you would like to promote to
have a really effective
workforce, so I think that's
like a good starting point, like
first week type activity.
Bryan Mulry: Yeah, like call to
contact and expected expected
behaviour, expected attitudes
type thing.
Elaine Tyler: I think welcome
meetings with everybody in the
team as well, so you know that
the candidate gets like a
holistic understanding of who
everybody is in the business,
what the different departments
do, obviously depends on the
size of the company, but you
know, kind of demystifies, and
it also opens up the channels of
communication. I think, like,
real clear timeline set out, so
we use monday.com and when we
have a new starter, they have
their own, you know, Monday
board that's on there, that's
just kind of showing what
they're going to be doing, like
week by week, and the outcomes.
That are expected from a
learning perspective over the
first 12 weeks, so I think
that's like a good start to get
them going.
Bryan Mulry: I like that idea of
having a set of expected tasks
by somebody to begin with, but
I'm a to-do list guy, so that
would actually be particularly
intimidated to some other kinds
of people.
Elaine Tyler: A buddy system as
well, so that they've got that
kind of go-to person within the
business that can be their
person, you know, when they want
to ask the questions that might,
that you need to know the answer
to, like, where's the loops, but
you know, you don't, you don't
necessarily want to ask, you
know, somebody who's maybe your
boss, or whatever, so somebody
for those type of questions, you
know, you know what I mean,
somebody who's like on a
peer-to-peer level, who take,
who can show you where to go for
lunch on your first day, and
that type of stuff,
Bryan Mulry: someone you can ask
the stupid questions
Elaine Tyler: to, yeah, there's
no stupid questions, though. But
yes,
Bryan Mulry: Tim, what do you
think on this?
Tim Ogle: I build on where
Elaine's gone with this, because
there's some very practical
steps out, and I agree
completely with all of them. I
think the place where we can
build on that, though, is it's
not like week one, week two,
week three. I mean, obviously,
make that amazing, like day one,
do give them a laptop, give them
a phone if that's required, and
whatever else, you know, just
make sure that stuff's ready to
go, is housekeeping, but I think
it's, how do we then take them
from the first few weeks, when
it's all very exciting on
honeymoon, and like, oh, this is
new, and this is that, and you
know, it's all just reading,
learning, exploring, is when the
rubber hits the road, and you
have to start actually doing the
work, and that's where you come
in as a boss, as a leader, and
you've got to be good, you've
got to first of all, you've got
to set expectations, like,
you've got to be really clear
what you expect this role to be.
And then I think it's good to
sort of look at the big picture,
which might be like this is the
next six months, but then break
it down into smaller pieces,
like, okay, so in the next week,
what we're going to try and do,
what's the achievement we're
trying to get to, and break it
down into smaller achievable
moments, which don't feel quite
so overwhelming, and then
regular checking around those,
those sort of weekly cadence
type objectives, goals, micro
goals, whatever you want to call
them, and that regular check in
will be very much around like,
okay, how did it go, what
worked, what didn't work, what
did we learn from that, what do
we need to change next week, and
I think that last question, what
do we need to change next week,
what is a question of getting
them to reflect on what
happened, what did they learn
from it, okay, therefore, how do
I make that better next time I
see it next week, and do it
again, and if it is a role like
an SDR role, where you are going
to be probably hitting the
phones relatively quickly, if
that's what is required, or
you're going to be doing email
outreach, or a mixture of all of
those things. As a leader, you
can't just sit there and
delegate all of that. You can't
just go, "Well, I told them
their target is this many
meetings a week, can we have to
make this many calls, and all
those sort of things, because if
you do that, the person may be
feeling completely overwhelmed.
There may be like other
underlying factors that are
getting in the way, so that's
where you got to take the time
to go. Okay, how did it go? What
worked? What didn't work? What
do we need to change? How could
we adapt that? And take once
you've gone past the setting the
ground rules of the job, is then
moving into a coach and being a
being a leader as a coach, and
helping those people, helping
your new recruit start to find
their way and build confidence.
If you don't take the coach
approach, there's a risk you
just become a superhero, as in
the boss becomes a superhero in
the team, and everybody looks at
you, and everybody, they fix
everything all the time, and
therefore you never get this in
peril team. And I think the more
that you can coach, you turn it
into a coaching relationship
with your new recruit, the
better. The faster that happens,
the better. Not surprising,
we're all part of representing
MySalesCoach here, you know.
So that's kind of a lead for
that. So we do coach leaders to
be coaches, so you know that's
one of the things we do do here,
but it's in terms of that ramp
up period, that's that's
critical. I think the other
thing, as a leader, it comes
back to the behavioural
expectations and the competency
expectations. You can't just
manage on the outputs here,
you've got to start tracking the
inputs, and the inputs are
things like attitude,
commitment, desire, bravery the
things that are going to be
helping these people succeed?
And then to provide feedback,
you can't just ignore like
things if they're not working.
If they are working well,
provide feedback like praise,
and that's brilliant. You've
done a grazing job this week,
but even if things aren't going
well, provide feedback on that
too. So be balanced and don't be
frightened of providing that
feedback early on, because
that's where I see lots of
people fail on bringing people
up, is like you just, they're
not committed enough to
providing that early stage
feedback, like my worried they
might upset them, or they might
person might leave, and it's
like, yeah, but if you don't do
it, they're never going to
change, so therefore provide
feedback, but with a degree of
empathy and caution and
gentleness, certainly to start
with,
Bryan Mulry: an element of this
is that it's almost like adding
authenticity and trust and
brutal honesty throughout all
stages of the of the cycle,
breathing brutally honest with
what you want, why you're doing
it, that you're making a
decision, and then at this point
being brutally honest with
here's what you need to know for
the role, here's what we expect
of you, and I need you to be
honest with me as to what
feedback you know, do we need to
change this onboarding process,
but also, hey, you're doing
really well here, but not well
here. There's a lot in that, but
I really like what you said
there about there is a
transition from managing someone
in a process to becoming a
coach. It's there's a transition
from sort of onboarding them and
teaching them the ropes to
teaching them how to pull those
ropes, and that is usually where
people sort of either become
coaches or deploy external
coaches. We have covered a lot
today. Okay, so looking at the
whole process, there's an
element of this where we need to
make sure that it is, it is
currently extremely costly for
to miss hire a salesperson, so
there's a lot of pressure on
people to either get it right or
and make sure they're doing it.
In a correct, thoughtful way, in
2025 to begin with, we need to
build up a talent pool, and the
ways to do that is be as
authentic as you can, as meeting
people in the wild, building up
a social brand, like, like they
do at Venetrix, making sure
you've got clear referral
methodologies in place, or clear
referral paths in place, you're
proactively going to events,
you're proactively meeting with
good people, and being authentic
is who you need and why you need
them. Once you have that, then
you then lead into the sort of
selection process stage, and at
that, you need to be thoughtful.
You need to put the time,
energy, and effort into what do
what problem do we need to
solve, and what core
competencies, behaviours do we
need to see from a candidate in
order to tell us that they're
the right person for that, then
we also need to talk about who,
what is the reason for this
role, and who's going to support
this role in this process. Make
sure you are surfacing your red
flags, make sure you are
proactively surfacing your
doubts, the good ones and the
bad ones. And then it comes
making a decision, and then in
order to make a decision
originally to proactively decide
that you're going to make that
decision in the first place, but
also don't react to what's
happened recently. Make sure
that you're making a long-term
decision with a long-term lens,
which is really, really
difficult, rather than just
reacting to what's happening in
your business in the short term.
And this idea of can we find
someone better needs to come
earlier in the process rather
than later in the process,
because you should know when you
found someone who can do the
job. Lastly, then you gotta, you
gotta onboard them once you've
made an incredible offer, you've
made the decision, and
everything has gone well. You
gotta demystify the role, be
incredibly thoughtful as the
first 3060 90 days of this
person's life, but also give
them clear expectations. Here's
what I expect of you, here's
what you can expect of me, and
then give them a buddy in case
they have any questions that
they don't want to ask the CEO
and CRO of this business.
Tom Boston: Thanks for
listening. There's more where
that came from. So, don't forget
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