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Welcome to The Culture Code podcast. On this podcast, you’ll learn how to grow, shape, and sustain a high-performance culture with the CEO of LEADx, Kevin Kruse. From designing and delivering highly effective leadership development programs, to measuring and improving the employee experience, you will understand what it takes to cultivate a thriving company culture. Through interviews with Chief People Officers, deep dives into key topics, and recordings of our invite-only community sessions, we bring you cutting-edge, data-backed insights from the most desirable companies to work for in the world.
Kevin Kruse: Hello, everyone. I'm Kevin Kruse. Welcome to the Culture Code. Our guest today is the Chief People Officer at Verta Health, Dr. Lucia Guillory. Lucia, welcome! Where are you joining us from today?
Guillory: Hey, thanks for having me. I'm joining you from Oakland, California.
Kruse: From Oakland, California. Now, I couldn't help but notice that on your LinkedIn profile, you describe yourself as an "escaped academic." You did get your Ph.D. from Stanford in org design, and I am always shocked that there aren't more Ph.D. psychologists in this role because I would think it's a great background. But you're maybe only the second, maybe third person I've ever spoken to that had that background. So tell me a little. Is it an advantage coming from academia into the practitioner role? Why'd you make that move?
Guillory: Well, I think the reason why you're not seeing more people in space is that it's hard to escape. I got out, but it wasn't easy. In terms of, is there an advantage? It's hard to say. You know, I'm an only child. Was there an advantage to having my parents with me all the time? I've never experienced anything else. I feel that it's hard to break into an operational role from a research base because there are people who have been in the operation space for a long time who might think, "you, nerd, why do you think you know better than me?" That, I think, was difficult, at least for me, at the start.
Kruse: Don't you find, I know this isn't part of our prepared questions, but it's just so fascinating. I don't have the academic credentials, but I strongly believe in a research-based approach to people issues. And I get frustrated that not everybody appreciates what research says. Have you found that to be true on the practitioner side of things as well?
Guillory: I definitely have. But even as someone whose background is in research, I feel as though being on the other side of things for a long time has helped me develop some empathy for that. Which is, you know, when you're looking at research, you're looking at averages. You're looking at what's normative. And when you're dealing with a situation on the ground, you may not get the average. You may get something atypical and need to look beyond the research to determine what is right, using your intuition at that moment.
Kruse: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Well, let's dive in. For those who might not be familiar with VirtaHealth, how big is your organization and in plain language, what do you do?
Guillory: So, we reverse diabetes, obesity, and prediabetes. It's a continuous remote care model, and we do this without adding medications. In fact, we prescribe medications without surgery. It's really about looking at a person as a whole individual, providing them with a coach and a doctor, and helping them make a lifestyle change that causes this reversal.
Kruse: There's so much I love about that. If I didn't already know and had to guess, I'd think Verta Health was some big healthcare system, with patients going into buildings and doctors. But you're saying you can reverse diabetes and prediabetes with a totally virtual model and actually get people off medications. This seems incredibly innovative and unique.
Guillory: It is. When I learned about it, I actually didn't know diabetes was even reversible. I have a long family history of diabetes. I've seen relatives get amputated. My father is a stroke victim and is paralyzed. Had I known this 10 years earlier, it would have been so meaningful for me and my personal life. The fact that it can be done, and that it can be done remotely for anyone with amazing effect, independent of many demographic factors that tend to predict poor health outcomes in traditional healthcare, is really exciting to be a part of.
Kruse: And sorry if I missed it, but how big is the company? Everyone's always curious these days when it comes to culture. Is your organization doing the hybrid or work remote? Where have you guys landed on that topic?
Guillory: Yeah, so we're about 500 people. We are remote-first. I wouldn't say we're hybrid. There are events that people can go to that are in real life (IRL), but the primary work experience is remote.
Kruse: A lot of people have a hard time even describing what culture means. How would you describe your company culture in just a few words?
Guillory: Yeah, well, I'd say the number one thing about our culture is that we are people-first. We're oriented around our members. We're oriented around one another. And we're really centered on this concept of empowerment. You know, being empowered to lead your best life, to do what you want to do with your life, and that shows up in our treatment. But it also shows up in the way that we hope we are guiding and supporting our teammates. Being evidence-based is also a really big one. You know, we're a company that was started by researchers of this phenomenon. And we're very oriented around the science of what we do. That comes into decision-making every day, too, because we're also kind of low ego in value but low hierarchy in terms of the way that we work together and make decisions.
Kruse: So even though you're a relatively small company with 500 employees, that kind of culture doesn't just magically happen, right? What are some of the ways you foster or sustain this culture? Any unique rituals or traditions related to your culture?
Guillory: Sure, I can talk about just a couple of examples. One of the things that really helps connect us to what we're doing and makes us feel close to the work and our individual contributions is that at every all-hands meeting we have, we invite a member to come in and speak to the team about their experience, whether it's good, bad, or in between. We get to hear how they are experiencing the treatment, the changes they've made in their lives, and in many cases, the ramifications of those changes for their families. I've even heard of cases where multiple generations are making a change because grandma is, you know. So, having that kind of example and experience helps us remember, every Monday, what we're doing this for. This is how people come first, and how we should then try to translate the specific tasks that we have today or this week into its meaning and into helping people. That's a good example for "people-first". I also talked about being evidence-based. Being a company founded on research, we're very quantitative. I tell everyone, whenever there's an exec interviewing to join, now that I'm a 4-year plus exec here, and they ask me what's different, I say we're very evidence-based. We're research and data-oriented. There's no desire to hear your pitch for why you think something is cool. The desire is to understand why that's going to work and what evidence you have that it's the right approach. That information needs to be provided to everyone. I think that links to the concept of "low ego". I'm the Chief People Officer, but I wouldn't ask anyone in the company to do anything if I wasn't able to explain to them why they needed to take that action and what evidence I had that it was going to work. I think that's valuable for an organization and for a leadership team to be held accountable for. It helps our culture stay strong.
Kruse: Yeah, it's great that you're giving that example about being research-based and research-driven, even in the interviews. 70% of engagement is correlated to the manager, and front-line managers touch more employees than any other leadership group. What are some of the ways you develop your front-line managers?
Guillory: We are doing a lot for our managers. We actually have a program that's been running throughout this year, and I think the first ratings it got were 93%. The second ratings were 100%. The second cohort that's gone through this program was all people who asked to be in it. So the first cohort was people who were "voluntold," but they were open to it. Then the second cohort closed within like an hour of being open and is so far getting 100% ratings. So, I would agree with you that yes, we have very limited resources, but I would not agree that we're not doing much. The program I'm talking about is called the Emerging Leaders program. It's focusing on folks who are new to management or approaching middle management. Essentially, not senior leaders. It's focusing on folks who are trying to learn those initial skills. The program right now is being run by a teammate named Caroline Neely, who is doing an amazing job. It was actually started by a member of the HR team, Mark Mooney, and also Bray Stevens, who's on the TA team. So, to give you a sense, people doing different roles can start a program like this. You don't have to be an HR person with years of training in L&D to get something going. I think it's important to get something going first, more so than having it be perfect. And the program—it's being managed from a programmatic perspective by an HR teammate, but the instructors are our leaders. So essentially, what we did was we started off with focus groups to understand what skills we want our managers to have and what we feel is lacking. We went to the leaders and said, "Here's where we think we have expertise. Do you feel like you have that expertise, and are you willing to teach a course on this?" Then we produced this 8-week course on various topics that we thought were essential for leaders as they emerged into the space of, you know, not just being a manager, but someone guiding workflows and producing strategy.
The setup—I'm sorry, I could talk about this forever—but the setup is really cool because they, the instructors, record the course, so the managers can take the course at any time. But there's also a study group that happens within a week of the course being released. In the study group, they're there with the instructor, and they can ask any question about the course. They also do this in a cohort, so there's a team of other managers they're going through this program with. They can develop relationships with those managers and get accustomed to asking them questions about topics and issues that come up in their daily lives relating to the coursework. And then, even after they're out of the course, they continue to have relationships and touchpoints with that cohort and those cohort members, as well as the instructors who can provide ongoing mentorship and support. So, lots of cool elements, plus, because I'm super into data, lots of measurements. At the beginning of the program, before they start, we actually survey their teammates, the people they support, on their competency in these dimensions. We have a mid check-in and then an end check-in. The idea is to understand, you know, not only whether or not they, as managers, think they're improving, but do the teams and individuals they support feel like they're doing better on these things. So now you're going to see that I geek out on this because I'm going to poke at this a little bit. So, give me an example. What's a topic or two covered in the 8 weeks?
Yeah, one of them is "Practicing Difficult Conversations." We can see that manifested through difficulty with performance reviews, difficulty with change management, or even difficulty expressing what you want and need from a teammate as a manager. I know that's something I had a hard time with when I first started managing, like, "How do I ask these people to do what I want them to do? I'm just a person. Why should they do what I say? How do I communicate that I need them to do XYZ?" So this segment, this portion, is all about how you connect with someone, develop that emotional bank account, so you can go out on a limb with them and really talk about things that aren't easy to talk about.
Kruse: But now that I'm going to ask you a doctor question. How do you solicit feedback from employees about the culture and their engagement (e.g., engagement or other surveys, town halls, ?)
Guillory: So, you know, we get feedback from the manager who's gone to the program, which is around, "Do you feel like you're competent in this area? Do you feel like you've experienced improvement there?" And then we also ask the teams, basically the same survey from the beginning, which is like, "Is your manager good at this or not?", and we look at whether the score has shifted. We also have another survey mechanism which is distinct from the program, which is actually done through our BP channel. Therein, we're asking all of the managers about areas that they need to see a shift in and what their competency is there. And so, I think that that's a redundancy where we'll say, "Well, what portion of the manager population has gone through this training?", and then, "What are all of our managers saying is the issue that they're facing?" And what we anticipate is that over time we're not going to see difficult conversations nearly as much because the population is moving through this training, and we know that at least they are saying that they're not having this issue. They're getting accustomed to working in cohorts, so they should be providing guidance to their cohort members, but also they should be able to provide guidance to managers who haven't been through the program yet.
Kruse: I love that for our listeners. You know, we nerd out on that a lot. But there's so much good stuff here, including, first of all, the fact that you went from voluntary to true people, you know, wanting to participate, ask, and participate. And it's selling out. We continue to see. We do an annual benchmark study at LEADx, and everyone says they want to learn and grow, and then they don't show up to your program because they're too busy. So if you want people to participate and you're trying to mandate it, or, you know, coerce them, they're not going to do it. If you offer it as, "Hey, this is a good thing for you", and I like that the senior leaders are some of the instructors in it, you're going to have a much better participation.
Guillory: I also think that, what's that? You gotta make it fun, too. I mean, nobody wants to be bored, right? So you try to put as much effort into making it fun as you put into the content itself. And you know, there are tons of books on how to make things fun and engaging. I really love "Power of Moments", and we tried to take elements from "Power of Moments" and put it into the program. One example is that at the end, they think they're coming into the last session, but it's really a graduation. Music was playing, and then the CEO came and gave a graduation speech, recognized them by name, and they had little fake graduation caps from Zoom put on. And then their manager, one of my teammates was in it, so you know, the managers came on and thanked them, talked about their hopes and dreams for them, kind of like a real graduation. I think that's how you put a little life into something that otherwise feels like watching a webinar. It's not engaging. It doesn't feel like you're really part of something.
Kruse: "Power of Moments". Is that a book? I'm not familiar with it.
Guillory: "Power of Moments" by Chip and Dan Heath. Oh, it's one of my favorites. Yes, absolutely.
Kruse: That's amazing. Because I know there are other works and realize they were the authors of that one. That's great. Let's shift focus a little bit. Successful companies, by default, have successful cultures. But back to data, how do you know how your culture's doing? I'm assuming you're doing some kind of employee voice survey or something like that. Tell me what you're doing to keep your finger on the pulse of the culture.
Guillory: I love surveys. I think we're all in on the surveys here. We do an engagement survey twice a year, and then we have essentially action planning that happens in relation to that. Depending on where your scores land, you will likely do subsequent pulses. So, one of my teams, actually, I'm in a position where I need to do a pulse because we had some low scores on certain dimensions. I like to have those pulses follow within 2 months of the initial score that had the flag. And so, those are from a purely data perspective, what we do. But we also, through the business partner channel, have conversations about the engagement results. And possibly, you know, subsequent surveying. That's different, like, it's more about the team and the team's experience than the individual experience, and then aggregating it and trying to make some assumptions about the team.
Kruse: Sounds good. Related to culture, are there any special initiatives or results you’re most proud of?
Guillory: Hmm, well, I think the coolest stuff in the world to me is stuff where the individual gets to take ownership and take a part in whatever is happening. So, whether that be the emerging leaders program where your leaders are actually the ones who are saying, "Yes, this is the right content. And I'm standing up to deliver this content," or it's something like there's a workflow that we have going on the recruiting side. We're essentially trying to tell the Verda story from the perspective of the teammate. And ways that we have worked to do that are through podcasts that are looking at really individual Vertons, stories of their development and their passion, and why they're here, and so on and so forth. Or video content that's being produced to try and help you understand not only what the role is but why the role is important to the teammate. That makes sense. So, I'm describing it in an abstract sense. I'm not sure if it's clear. But really, my view of this work that's going on in recruiting is about capturing whatever the essence of the employee experience is and bringing that outward, showing that to the world. It's the best way to sell your company. If you want to sell someone on it, instead of figuring out like, "Oh, these are the benefits they want. Blah, blah, blah," I think, figuring out the people who like being there. What are they like? What are they experiencing? What gives them energy? And how can you enable them to express that? I think that's something I'm passionate about. And that's something that I would recommend to anyone who's leading a people team and trying to figure out what your strategy is going to be.
Kruse: I love that, and hopefully this podcast interview will help get the word out about some of what is so special there. What book would you recommend that your colleagues read? (or podcast, video, etc.)
Guillory: 100% "Power of Moments." If my grandmother was still alive, I'd send it to her. I would have my son read it as his bedtime story if I could get Paw Patrol characters in there. It is so amazing because it really helps you understand how people conceptualize experiences, whatever that experience is, and gives you actionable steps to improve those experiences. Anything from a birthday party to a performance review to a graduation. It gives you these things that you can do, sensory things, elements that you can add to make it better. And I think that's something that anyone can use.
Kruse: That's great. Great recommendation. What's something that you know now that maybe you wish you knew on your first day of becoming Chief People Officer? What advice would you give to a younger version of yourself, or someone who's just starting out today?
Guillory: Okay, well, probably more than one thing. The first thing, which I'm still trying to learn, so I wouldn't say that I've learned it, is just the importance of relationships, you know. I feel like I started off way off, as you can even see on my screen, in terms of my capability in building relationships and understanding people. And now I'm more centered, but there's further to go there. Those relationships are just the bedrock of everything that you do, whether you're in analytics or in the people space where it's even more needed. In relation to that, I think there's this phenomenon where perception is reality, and understanding that link is very important. Essentially, what you should be most focused on is understanding perception. What is the perception, and why is it what it is, more so than whatever the reality is? Because it's just not relevant. If no one believes it, it doesn't matter what the facts are or what the details are. What matters is what people are experiencing and how you can help them navigate through that. And, you know, I think that would have been great to know right out of grad school where you're trained to be so focused on things like, "Is the p-value using 0.05 or not?" If it's not, then this is totally false, and nobody cares. The way you think about facts and data is so different in my background versus now, where it's just about what people think, what they feel, and how they're going to react to what you've said, as opposed to whether you said all the facts and everything exactly right.
Kruse: It's interesting what came up for me as you were sharing. In the sales and marketing world, not everybody believes it, but I believe it. You know, they say people buy for emotional reasons but then justify it with logical reasons. So, we have all our data, or the pricing's lower, our product is better, whatever it is. People buy based on how they feel, whether it's excitement, safety, or other emotions. But if you then ask them, it's like, "Oh, it's because you had the better price, and the 0 to 60 was faster." I think that being analytical, it's too easy to just focus on giving people the data and assume that it speaks for itself, and everyone will get on the same page with it. But people's perceptions often have very little to do with facts, for better or for worse, right in our workplaces and, unfortunately, in the world these days.
Guillory: For sure. And there are also a million ways to interpret anything, right? To say the data tells you X, which tells you why, is in and of itself a misnomer. Because there are ways to look at the data where it could tell whatever story you want it to tell in many cases. So, figuring out what is the story that you want to tell? What's the impact that you want to have? And then why, I think, is more important than saying, "Oh, the answer is 5. Everybody, you all should know it's 5. We don't need to talk about this anymore." You know, it's a different way of approaching things.
Kruse: Yeah, absolutely. So, in your Chief People Officer role, what are we talking about here? It's October of 2023. I'm sure you're already getting ready to execute your 2024 plans. What's your focus going to be? What's your team going to be working on?
Guillory: Development. If you have any doubt from my statement around emerging leaders, we're expanding that. We know that this portion, when you think about the organization as a pyramid or whatever structure you envision, has the middle layer actively engaged and finding value. We want to expand both upward and downward in the organizational hierarchy and provide similar programming for those groups, down to individual contributors. This helps them be more effective in the work they're doing, particularly thinking about in-the-flow-of-work and just-in-time training. And how to use artificial intelligence, for instance, to help us provide those offerings to folks.
Kruse: Love that. And what about at the company level? What excites you the most about your company right now?
Guillory: Well, every day, all day, I'm really excited about reversing diabetes. I'm super passionate about it, and I think it's something that keeps us as an organization together because we have so many teammates who have a deep personal link to the work that we're doing right now. If you've seen the news, this craze is hitting the employer market. It's hitting all elements of healthcare. That's very much on our minds because we are a treatment that causes, you know, weight loss on par with, if not greater than what GLP ones provide. And we're sustainable. Unlike GLP ones, where there's like 50% of the population that gets on it is off within a year. We're a sustainable treatment, trying to figure out how to be part of those conversations and help the broader community, particularly the employer community, understand how we work, that we're there to partner with folks who are on GLP ones or as a stand-alone offering for folks who are trying to get the weight loss goals that they're seeking accomplished.
Kruse: It's an interesting time again, just for some of the listeners. The GLP ones are the new class of weight loss drugs. There are a couple, you know, brand names, but they're so new, and they got the uptake in. The demand has been so high for obvious reasons. But it seems like some of the side effects and the number of, you know, patient types that can't tolerate or have some, it's just starting to come out now, and wouldn't be the first time. You know, that people sort of rushed into something and then say, it's not for everybody, and so look, let's, it's the obesity epidemic. I think. You know, we need lots of different tools for lots of different situations. And I can imagine that the behavioral changes, though, will always be in demand and preferable for a lot of people.
Guillory: For sure, I think it's a first principles, core life change versus a temporary, you know, unique. You're taking this medication and you're experiencing the benefit. But then, the moment you stop, not experiencing the same benefit, you know, like, I think that it's a, it's a different type of solution. And it's one that we're really excited to talk about in the context of this high-cost drug complex, whether it's Ozmik or any of these. And in the context of the sustainability piece.
Kruse: Yeah, that makes sense. Dr. Lucia Guillory, Chief People Officer of Verda Health. Thank you for all the work that the company's doing and all the work you're doing to sustain the culture there.
Guillory: Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. It's been a lot of fun.