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Dr. Ron Hall, professor and pastor, and Peter Englert, pastor, help you delve into 1 John. Understand the context and background while applying this practical book of the Bible to your life.
1 John - 5-6-12.mov
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Peter Englert
00:00 - 00:22
Welcome to the Reading 1st John podcast. I'm here with pastor, professor, and my friend Ron Hall. Today we are, I believe that we're two podcasts away from finishing the book of 1st John. Um, as Ron and I always talk, it, it feels like, you know, you could give each of these versus like two hours.
Peter Englert
00:23 - 00:40
So what we're trying to do is give you a flyover as you're reading it so that you can continue to go back. And by no means is this comprehensive. So Ron, before we get started, let's, let's just kind of help our listeners jump back in. We're in first John five, six through 12.
Peter Englert
00:42 - 00:45
Why is this passage so important before we start reading it?
Ron Hall
00:46 - 01:17
Well, it's a continuation of the first five verses about who Jesus Christ is, and that's been reinforced throughout the letter, that He actually physically came in the beginning of the letter. Just as we have in the Gospel of John, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, the Word was God. So we have that same concept, and now he's bringing it together and going to reinforce that Jesus actually came in the flesh.
Ron Hall
01:18 - 01:44
There are a couple of loaded terms that are connected with it, and we don't expect you to know exactly what they mean, but Gnosticism, the idea of a superior knowledge, and Doceticism, that dealt with whether or not Jesus actually came in the flesh. And John drives home Jesus actually came in the flesh, that God became man and dwelt among us. And that's what it's about.
Peter Englert
01:45 - 02:00
Well, with that, let's just read verses 6 through 12, and then we'll talk more. But that was a great setup. It says this, This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood.
Peter Englert
02:01 - 02:19
And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify, the Spirit, the water, and the blood. And the three are in agreement. We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his son.
Peter Englert
02:20 - 02:39
Anyone who believes in the son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar because he has not believed the testimony. God has given about His Son, and this is the testimony. God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
Peter Englert
02:40 - 03:12
He who has the Son has life. He who does not have the Son of God does not have life. Ron, we're where I really want to start, because for some of you, this idea of water and blood, and I think even for me, it's very foreign. It sounds violent, but let's kind of jump into the original listeners, because I think that they had a different perspective on it before we completely jump into what this passage is saying.
Ron Hall
03:13 - 03:58
And Just before we do that, if anyone has the passage open before them, they will see repeated the word testimony and testify. So we're dealing with the water and the blood and the Spirit all testifying as to who Jesus is. Now, there's been debate as to how to interpret water and the blood, but the Spirit kind of rounds it off. So we have the triune here pulled together, as to how they testify, and there's some that will go back to the Gospel of John chapter three, unless you're born again, you can't enter the kingdom of heaven, and the idea you're born of the flesh in the water of
Ron Hall
03:58 - 04:33
the womb, trying to say that's what this is referring to, and that doesn't quite fit the interpretation. Water here is best represented by water baptism. And we think about the baptism of Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew in particular, and also in Luke, it's reinforced where Jesus comes to the Jordan River to be baptized by John the Baptist, and he goes into the water and comes up, and then the Spirit lands on him, testifying that this is Christ.
Ron Hall
04:34 - 05:04
And so the best understanding In my view, for water here is a direct reference to the water baptism and what it represents, and that is the inauguration of Jesus into his public ministry, well, prepares for it because he had to go out in the wilderness and be tempted after fasting 40 days, and then the blood dealing with his actual physical humanity that Jesus actually lived and possessed a physical body.
Peter Englert
05:06 - 05:35
So sorry for kind of jumping to the testimony first. I just want to get super practical because I think these three concepts that we're talking about, you know, with his water and blood and then testimony, they all go together. So just to get super practical here, you know, when we do baptisms in a church and Um, again, I'm talking about adult baptisms. There's other.
Peter Englert
05:36 - 05:55
Churches that practice infant baptism. Um, you know, there's, there's a healthy disagreement there. We're not going to touch that, but you know, with adult baptisms, you know, there's some sort of testimony that goes along with it. Um, even in our liturgy of saying, um, that you you've been buried with Christ.
Peter Englert
05:55 - 06:23
We now baptize you in the name of the father, son, and Holy spirit. raised up into the new life of the resurrection, like this is kind of what it's pointing to. And again, going back to what you said, you know, Jesus's testimony, which is very different as the son of God than ours, but also this testimony, because we have the do seticism and the Gnosticism that, you know, there's a literal and also spiritual implication. The literal implication is.
Peter Englert
06:24 - 06:37
You know, Jesus was baptized and Jesus did die on a cross. Jesus was human and born. And you can kind of see that John is really closing the loop on some of these thoughts.
Ron Hall
06:38 - 06:57
Yeah. And again, that goes back to chapter one, that Jesus appeared and it wasn't an apparition. It wasn't where you were seeing a ghost. Even after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, go ahead and touch me and see that it's for real.
Ron Hall
06:57 - 07:25
He was in a physical body, and his body became a sacrifice for us, so that's what matters. But the water baptism, I don't think, is so much about our baptism as it is the baptism of Christ at the Jordan River. That it's essential for him, he said, to fulfill all righteousness. Because John said, I need to be baptized of you.
Ron Hall
07:25 - 07:42
Why would you have me baptize you? And so John recognized then there was something unique and supernatural. So I think it's the baptism of Christ himself for this, not so much our baptism. Does that help?
Peter Englert
07:43 - 08:04
No, and just to clarify, I totally agree with you that it's Christ's baptism. I think there are some corollaries of why we do what we do. And Jesus's baptism is way different than our baptism. And again, not that we're going to touch this, you know, baptism is not salvation.
Peter Englert
08:04 - 08:42
And I think, you know, even in this passage, the what the author is hinting to is who Jesus is and why he got baptized. You know, we believe that baptism is the natural response to God saving us. And so, again, we love touching on We love touching on difficult subjects without going into that, but we encourage you for that. I do want to come back to this idea because one of the things that you've taught me as a professor is how important it is, you know, to see these repeated words.
Peter Englert
08:42 - 09:01
And the word testify is said ten times. from verses six to 11. So why don't we just, as we kind of, we've really been focused on six, as we jump down to seven and eight, how is Paul using, or how is John, forgive me, using it and weaving it all together?
Ron Hall
09:02 - 09:42
Because he wants to reinforce, we don't have just one witness, we have three witnesses, and these all testify as to who Jesus is. He came through the water baptism that was authenticated with the Spirit descending on him and not leaving, so that's an inauguration into his public ministry. Well, again, the wilderness, then the public ministry, and then we have this reinforcement with the blood that this is an actual physical person. And again, back to those technical terms, those who were denying Jesus was actually in the flesh.
Ron Hall
09:44 - 10:02
And if you don't have that, you don't have a real sacrifice for our sins. So you have Isaiah 53, that, you know, he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement that brought us peace was upon him. By his stripes we are healed. We are dealing with a literal, physical sacrifice.
Ron Hall
10:02 - 10:25
And all of the Old Testament sacrificial system ultimately pointed to the Lamb of God that would take away the sins of the world. in the Gospel of John chapter 1. And so 1 John is really a continuation of the Gospel of John, because it's reinforcing this reality that Jesus came in the flesh.
Peter Englert
10:26 - 10:55
I want to continue in this testimony theme, because I think it's important, and we can come back to Verses 7 and 8, but I think this is somewhere that gets lost in translation, but also lost in our time. You know, John makes this comment. We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater now. We still have perjury, so if you lie under oath, you know you're held to that degree.
Peter Englert
10:56 - 11:15
But what is John trying to tell us that? you know, about testifying to Jesus, but how God's testimony is more important. How would the original readers have probably understood this? Because, again, when it doesn't make sense to us, I think we have to assume it made sense to the first century readers.
Ron Hall
11:15 - 11:28
Yeah. Yeah. And you think about the reinforcement of John. It's really the slam-dunk authority that Father God himself is testifying through Jesus.
Peter Englert
11:29 - 11:33
And don't forget, they would have known the death, burial, resurrection of Christ.
Ron Hall
11:35 - 11:55
The reality of who Jesus is is reinforced throughout, not to be repetitive, but throughout the entire letter. Every chapter is going to deal with who Jesus really is. And so here's Father God himself. That trumps all testimonies, that Father God says, this is what it is.
Ron Hall
11:55 - 12:28
This is the reality. that matters, that My Son became a sacrifice for you. It's well illustrated in Hebrews, where Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice. Hebrews chapter 2 is the best chapter in the entire New Testament on the Incarnation, and that Christ identified with humanity, and by taking upon Him blood, He identifies literal blood that is spilt on the cross, not imaginary, but the actual physical blood of Christ that was poured out
Ron Hall
12:28 - 12:28
for us.
Peter Englert
12:31 - 13:01
So John is really working within the gospel framework, you know, when he's talking about this. And again, this goes back to what he said before. We've seen Jesus, we've touched him, and he's making this huge point of the good news of Jesus's death and resurrection. So when we read this passage, we have to remind ourselves that It wasn't that long ago that Jesus lived and walked, and that's what he's pointing back to.
Peter Englert
13:02 - 13:28
And that's even why this idea of baptism, you know, God comes audibly and says to John the Baptist, this is my son who I'm well-pleased. Again, it's part of, dare I say, the Bible interpreting the Bible. I'm not saying we should ever get rid of 1 John. If we didn't have 1 John, we'd be okay.
Peter Englert
13:28 - 13:49
But what 1 John does is, in the canon, is it highlights really more what was happening in Jesus's life. How does that apply to us? And it seems like that's what he's doing with this testimony and this idea of testifying to what we think is baptism and to who Jesus was as the Son of God.
Ron Hall
13:49 - 14:05
Yeah. You're spot on. And it's reinforced in the truth of the verses. He came by the water and the blood, the authentication of the water baptism of Father God, testifying.
Ron Hall
14:05 - 14:29
And here we have Father God's testimony is greater than all testimonies as to what is presented. And so it's reinforcing the reality that we need to be secure in these testimonies that God has given, and not just one. Let everything, Scripture says, be confirmed in the mouth of two or three witnesses. I have that in the notes.
Ron Hall
14:30 - 14:47
And so here we have a triple testimony. You know, the water baptism, God authenticating the blood that he was physical. He shed literal blood on the cross that testified to him. And again, I think it's driving home his humanity.
Ron Hall
14:48 - 15:17
that Jesus was the God-man. He was the Son of Man, and he was the Son of God, and he remains that for us. I mean, the term Son of Man was the term that Jesus really used over and over again to refer to himself, and that's the idea of this physical side. And then you got one more thing, the Spirit is really identified directly with the Father, because the Spirit testifies over and over again as to who Jesus is.
Peter Englert
15:19 - 15:43
Yeah, and I think the reason why I kind of jumped in, you know, just looking at your notes, is really what we're dealing with is kind of a call to question to believe or unbelieve. And, you know, that's kind of at the end of verse 10. And C.S. Lewis put it so clearly, this is often quoted, Jesus is either a liar, lunatic, or lord.
Peter Englert
15:45 - 16:20
And in some ways, if you're reading this passage and you're not a follower of Jesus, you have to kind of grapple with the Bible says that he's the son of God. And so I think that that's even what John's pointing to here, because if we think that we live in a pluralistic religious society, it doesn't even compare to the first century. And so even at the end of this, why is John spending so much time on testimony? He's spending so much time on testimony because he's calling to question the readers, do you believe or don't you believe?
Ron Hall
16:21 - 16:42
Well, he is, and he's reinforcing the same concept. Out of John chapter three, the gospel of John 3, 36, he who has the Son has life. He who does not have the Son does not have life, and the wrath of God abides in him, on him. So it's either you're for me or you're against me, you're in or you're out.
Ron Hall
16:43 - 16:57
There is no in-between, and that's Jesus over and over again. There's a broad road that leads to destruction, there's a narrow road that leads to life. Either you build your house upon the rock, or you build your house upon the sand. So we have these contrasts.
Ron Hall
16:57 - 17:06
So he who has the Son has life, he who does not have the Son does not have life. The wrath of God abides in him. And this is the same type of language that John is using here.
Peter Englert
17:07 - 17:45
Well, let's go there to verses 11 through 12, because I think that that's powerful. You know, there's there's something about eternal life that feels so distant, except if you meet people that are terminally ill. You know, I think that there's a sense of what does eternal life mean. And I think that those that are kind of closer to eternity, you know, in in getting ready for this podcast, I was thinking about, you know, I've I've watched some more videos and podcasts about, you know, a famous individual that's passing away and they're sharing that their faith
Peter Englert
17:45 - 18:04
in Christ. And so I think for us and obviously you might have a little different take But in reading this testimony, it's in these last two verses, there's this reality that we have life now, but it's also the life to come. Yeah.
Ron Hall
18:05 - 18:21
And we miss it because we have two words that are dealing with life. We have BIOS and we have Zoe. And here the word for eternal life is Zoe. So that would go back to John 3.
Ron Hall
18:21 - 18:43
You have to be born of the flesh, and then you have to be born of the Spirit. So here it's recognizing that Jesus is actually physical, and then it pictures for us what can happen for us spiritually. So in verse 11, and this is the testimony, God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. This is OE.
Ron Hall
18:43 - 19:06
This is the spiritual life that we have. You know, there's the idea, concept, twice born or twice alive, or twice dead. So there's the first physical birth, and then you can face a physical death. And then there is the spiritual birth, and then you can face the spiritual life with eternal life in the Lord.
Ron Hall
19:06 - 19:08
So the contrast is there.
Peter Englert
19:11 - 19:34
That's really powerful. And, you know, so I think I really want to come back to this idea of, you know, testimony and believing and then eternal life, because I I think that where we're wrestling with in your first reflection question is, what does it really mean to believe? You know what? What does it really mean to believe that?
Peter Englert
19:35 - 19:59
Jesus Christ's death and resurrection changes us. What does it really mean to believe that Jesus Christ was baptized as the son of God? And and so, you know, for our listeners that this might seem esoteric, even platonic, you know, what what does it really mean for us to believe and what does it look like, you know, on a Tuesday morning?
Ron Hall
20:01 - 20:31
Well, that makes all the difference. Because you have people, like a faith-word person, would believe that we somehow conjure up this in our lives to have spirituality, and we, by thinking the right things, saying the right things, then we get our answers to prayer. But what John is really saying is the Christian life is revolving around what it really means to believe what do you do with Jesus Christ. That goes back to chapter four.
Ron Hall
20:32 - 20:50
Those that are genuine and those that are not genuine. Those who hold that Jesus came in the flesh and He died on the cross and He rose again, proving He was the Son of God. Those who have belief in that are the ones that find life. And that's the eternal life John is referring to.
Ron Hall
20:51 - 20:59
And in that reflection question, I have a whole string of verses that come out of chapter one and chapter two, chapter four. It's reinforced multiple times.
Peter Englert
21:02 - 21:25
Well, and I think even to hear what you're saying is, you know, we can talk about belief like doctrine. We can talk about belief like mindset or self-help. But ultimately, belief seeps down into our hearts and our motivations and how we interact with people. And again, this is why First John is so powerful.
Peter Englert
21:25 - 21:52
And we go back to that reel of the individual that said, I've read First John and I don't think I was saved. You know, there's all of these portions where it says, hey, if you don't love your brother and sister, you're not saved. Like if you don't, you know, if you don't care for people, if you don't have faith without deeds, and is that and that's probably in another scripture. But essentially, this is a very holistic book.
Peter Englert
21:53 - 22:02
Um, talking about love and hate, talking about how we're supposed to live there. There's huge ramifications for believing in Jesus.
Ron Hall
22:03 - 22:19
Yeah. And what that really looks like. It's not, it's not the idea of where we are working this up in ourselves. It's faith in a person, you know, the gesture live by faith, faith, and what faith in what Christ has done.
Ron Hall
22:20 - 22:38
You know, that's what makes the difference. So it's not something that we conjure up from within us, you know, that to every man is dealt a measure of faith, Paul says in Romans 12. So the Lord gives us the ability to believe, and that's what we root ourselves in.
Peter Englert
22:43 - 22:54
Well, we we went through a lot today. Is there anything that that you want to talk about that you think that we might have missed or is there any other little tidbits or pieces?
Ron Hall
22:57 - 23:18
Well, when you tie it in with the beginning of the chapter, that this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith, we realize our Christianity is totally rooted and grounded in what Christ has done. It's not something I've done. We don't save ourselves. It's by what He has done.
Ron Hall
23:18 - 23:33
We are redeemed. We are rescued. We are saved by the things that He has done, not anything of ourselves. And that's huge, because that is repeated in the Gospel—I mean, the Book of Romans over and over again.
Ron Hall
23:33 - 23:41
It's by Christ alone, by faith alone, by grace alone, what he's done. And John is in keeping with that same theme.
Peter Englert
23:44 - 23:47
Well, Ron, we got one more left. Do you think you have it in you?
Ron Hall
23:48 - 23:48
Yes, we do.
Peter Englert
23:52 - 24:00
Oh, man. Well, this was a great episode, Ron. Thank you so much. We'll see you next time on the Reading First John podcast.