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Disrupted Futures is a podcast by ESDiT, the Ethics of Socially Disruptive Technologies, a research programme funded by the Dutch Research Council (NWO).
Through conversations with researchers, thinkers, and practitioners, we explore the ethical questions raised by AI, robotics, biotechnology, and other emerging technologies, inviting you to reflect on the futures we are creating together.
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What does it mean to be human in
a world disrupted by technological
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change in an unprecedented
way at an unprecedented pace?
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How are emerging technologies transforming our
societies, our personal identities, our values?
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Welcome to Disrupted Futures, a podcast brought
to you by ESDiT, the ethics of socially disruptive
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technologies, a research program funded by
the Dutch Research Council. I'm your host,
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Dr. Radhika Mittal, program manager and
impact lead for ESDiT. In each episode,
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we try to uncover the ideas, the dilemmas,
the ethical tensions shaping our future. We
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explore today's technological and societal
transformations. From AI to robotics,
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from digital identity to sustainability, from
democracy to well-being. Along with researchers,
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practitioners, and critical thinkers,
we ask the questions of the future.
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This is Disrupted Futures. Let's think forward.
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Patricia or Patty as we like to call her is an
estate researcher in philosophy of technology
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at the University of Twente. She's also an
activist and community organizer focused
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on decolonial approaches to solving the
climate crisis. She's about to defend her
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PhD dissertation on the technopolitics of the
climate movement. True to her love for nature,
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Patty is also a gorilla gardener. So glad
to have you here with us, Patty. Radika,
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thank you so much for inviting me to this podcast.
It's so great to Patty, you are a climate activist
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and a philosopher of technology. So tell us how
have you combined your interests and background
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to explore what you term in a very innovative
way the technopolitics of the climate movement?
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Well, thank you first of all for um yeah for this
like beautiful introduction and um I guess I would
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say that the reason or the way that I managed to
combine it was that I had a little bit of freedom
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to shape my research project and I at the outset
of this research I really wanted to use my passion
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for philosophy of technology towards solving a
problem that I deeply care about. I think it's
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important to say that when at around the time
when I was starting my research there was um the
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climate movement was really enjoying a spotlight
in the global political mobilization. So you had
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these networks such as Extinction Rebellion or
Fridays for Future that were like very recently
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emerging. So I was learning at the moment a lot
about the climate crisis and ecological breakdown
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and I was getting really concerned about that.
So I thought okay I want to focus my research on
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this and and at the same time you know I was I've
always been fascinated with the internet. I'm a
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90s kid who grew up with when when all the
personal computers and like smartphone devices
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were penetrating really like every aspect of
our lives. So I was so interested to go deeper
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into what the role of the internet was in shaping
these climate action networks such as Extinction
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Rebellion and and Fridays for Future. So I thought
okay I can combine these two worlds right I can
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I can combine my concern for the climate crisis
with my training in philosophy of technology and
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in the end this was this this is how I decided to
focus on technopolitics. So how does technology
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and politics are shaping one another and and and
that led me to to this research and and to my
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method and my approach which is a very like what
we call an auto-ethnographic method. Yeah. Okay. So
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I'm just thinking this is this has been very
inspired right your whole journey sounds very
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inspired. Maybe you can give our listeners the
main insight from your work in three hashtags.
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I don't know if it inspires them, but perhaps the
hashtags give us something to look forward to. No,
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sure. I mean, I can try. Of course. Um, you know, I think it's been now like almost six
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years of research on the technopolitics of the
climate movement. So, the hashtags will naturally
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be quite dense, I think. Um, but I but there are
certainly like certain concepts or certain like,
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you know, like titles that I keep
coming back to. And so I feel like I'm just going
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to use those as the hashtags.
So I would I would say like maybe #reversal climate
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action, #technopolitics and # interneting. Wow,
this sounds very otherworldly and fantastical.
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Almost like a novel I'm reading. Could you unpack
these hashtags for us a little bit? Oh, you are so
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kind. Um, you're so kind. But it is, I mean, in a
way I think that it is meant to be otherworldly,
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or it it's meant to sort of like bring us
into the possibility of other world. So I
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think you're on to something definitely there and
and I can try to unpack um you know like a bit
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briefly where these concepts are coming from.
So when I said plur reversal climate action,
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I'm here using a concept, the concept of
pluriversality which is a concept or or a notion
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that has been put forward recently by the
anthropologist Arturo Escobar. And the idea with
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pluriversality is that you have a world where
many worlds fit, right? And this idea of a
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world where many worlds fit is also something that
is inspired on the Zapatistas' struggle that started
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in the '90s in Mexico. And the idea is that
you can, yeah, you can coexist with with diverse
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worlds. So there doesn't have to be domination
between each others but there can be different
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worlds coexisting. So I'm trying to figure out
a way in which we can do climate action while
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acknowledging the differences between different
climate action groups and and different climate
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activists. Then like just taking this idea of
pluriversality a little bit forward. When I
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when I talk about technopolitics as worlding,
I talk about worlding is this this kind of
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practice um or this notion that I took from Donna
Haraway mostly in how we engage with artifacts,
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how we engage with our environment in a way
that we aim to create the worlds that we want
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to live in. And so for me technopolitics
as worlding means using technologies in a
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way in which we are creating these non-hegemonic
worlds which is really like political at heart.
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No. And finally I would say that the internet
worldings for me. So if you would if you
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would understand technopolitics
as worlding, then internet worldings would
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mean creating these better worlds but with the
internet. So this is what I've called internet
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worldings. Patty, you bring through so many themes
here. the themes of equity, the themes of coming
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together as a community of amalgamating ideas
and interests to achieve something that has a
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common goal. So I think that's a great unpacking
of the hashtags and a great preview of your
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insights. Could you tell us what is the key
tech-driven disruption within climate activism
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and perhaps walk us through an example where
this disruption is most visible? Sure. I mean,
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yeah, so I I think that aligned to to these
sort of concepts of pluriversality
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and world and everything. I mean the way that
I started this research was really looking into
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how the internet had shifted the dynamics of
social movements because then I wanted to use that
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and apply it a little bit more directly to the
climate movement. Right? And I think that
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what really stood out to me or what I thought
was super interesting was how it's something
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that social movement scholars Lance Bennett and
Alexandra Segerberg they called it the shift
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from a logic of collective action to a logic of
connective action. And so what that means broadly
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is that the dynamics of of social movements had
shifted with the emergence of the internet to be
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a lot less dependent on organizational resources.
So let's say you know how many people do you have
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that can knock on doors to advocate for a cause
or um how many people can fly around or how many
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people can talk to other people and and call
them to join the the movement. So now it instead
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of having to worry about you know these kind of
resources you could post something online and it
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might become viral you know the like overnight.
So this is what it so this is already a a thing
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that is shifting the way that social movement
dynamics work and this has also like an effect
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on the structure of your movement as well. So
instead of movements being vertical, you know,
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like needing a leader or a director that has
to tell everybody what to do, your movements
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become a lot more horizontal and self-organized.
So that that doesn't mean that you're not going to
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have a leader. Like there there there might be
people that are leading somewhat the movement,
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but the action doesn't doesn't often or doesn't
always depend on them. So we've become now in
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this sort of like-worked action. We've become
so much more used to distributed action and
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that is what is enabling these climate activism
networks like Extinction Rebellion, Fridays for
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Future people around the world that are just like
starting their their chapters of the movement and
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that are starting to protest and and do things
you know like autonomously. So I think this is
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quite disruptive. It has been quite disruptive to
the climate movement and this means that um you
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know the the movement has been able to grow a lot
faster and we can talk a little bit about whether
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you know growing at this speed is a positive thing
or a negative thing. I think there's a little bit
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of both. I think there is definitely of course a
really nice things about growing really fast but
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it can also mean that you know that that you grow
at a scale where you're facing challenges that you
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are not necessarily ready to confront or
to deal with as well right and I'm actually very
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enthused by this thought of moving from collective
action to connective action and, of course,
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perhaps technology does help with that. So,
how do you think in more detail perhaps you can
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unpack further for us? How do you think climate
activists are engaging online to meet actual
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goals that the climate movement has? So, what are
they doing to take their movement towards certain
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outcomes? Yeah. Well, I guess that that there's
also different ways in which you can engage with
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the internet for activism or for yeah just
for organizing. There's there are certain
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perhaps like goals that you can try to achieve
with the internet. So, you know like the most
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simple one is trying to raise awareness of the cause. So, basically,
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you are using these platforms as a way of
communicating of distributing information. You can
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also use the internet to organize or mobilize just
making sure you know that that that that people
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are going to show up at at an offline action that
they're going to show up on the streets that they
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know what they need to bring with them. Just you
know like the sort of internal communications that
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happen within a movement, but you can also use it
for direct action. So this is a little bit more
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what what some people call like activism or like
electronic civil disobedience in a way is that
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you know that there might be hackers who are
trying to disrupt business as usual in the
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online world. So, for example, shutting entire
websites down if they are like from big oil or
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things along those lines that you can also use
the internet for for something like this. But
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personally for me what was the most interesting
was just realizing how the internet was used for
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this international organization. So how people
across the world they were seeing action in
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other countries and they were getting inspired by
it. So they were like maybe replicating certain
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tactics. They were replicating certain actions
and that led to this has led in my opinion to
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just showing us more clearly that the climate
movement is is really heterogeneous and there's a
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plurality of perspectives in the climate movement
and and the internet has served as this medium in
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which our different perspectives are being exchanged. So, for me, I think that if I
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would have to maybe summarize a little bit what
the internet does for the climate movement most
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importantly for me is this kind of showing the
plurality of the climate movement. For a long time
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climate change has been at the forefront of public
attention. It has really been at the center. But
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today we also see multi-layered polycrisis.
So we are experiencing a very transformative
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world scenario and there are global upheavals,
right? Financial instability geopolitical
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conflict as we see now dramatic technological
disruptions energy insecurity so there's a lot
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going on and climate change which was very
much at the center of attention perhaps has
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stepped away to the side a little bit do you think
that interest in climate change is dwindling?
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No, I mean, Yeah. No, I'm glad that you
bring this up because from my perspective,
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I do think that the interest on the issue of
of climate has has dwindled and actually in the
0:14:39.200,0:14:45.920
last chapter of my dissertation, I am reflecting
on how my own concern with climate also changed
0:14:45.920,0:14:52.560
throughout the the duration of of my research. And
and it it changed because I was witnessing all of
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these different global upheavals, right? And all
of these different geopolitical conflicts. I mean,
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personally, I thought it was it was very
shocking and scary to just see this disregard
0:15:03.280,0:15:09.200
for international law, no and and and just like
an increasing amount of wars being waged and and
0:15:09.200,0:15:15.920
genocides being committed without accountability.
So, I think it is hardly surprising that for a
0:15:15.920,0:15:20.640
lot of people that care about the climate and
the environment, the this urgency of fixing
0:15:20.640,0:15:25.600
the climate crisis felt a little bit behind on the
priority list, right? because there's just so much
0:15:25.600,0:15:32.480
that you can actually focus on or or that you have
the capacity to to care for. So this in a way,
0:15:33.520,0:15:39.760
I think this is, as a climate activist, of
course, it's concerning but I what I also see
0:15:39.760,0:15:45.680
is that there is also a bit more acceptance and
interest in the fact that you know what that the
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social and global economic systems that we have
in place right now they are no longer serving
0:15:51.040,0:15:55.600
the vast majority of the people that are on the
planet. You know, I think that, for instance,
0:15:55.600,0:16:00.880
capitalism is definitely not as popular as it used
to be and especially with the younger generations,
0:16:00.880,0:16:06.880
which I personally think is very cool and for me
those systems are deeply connected to the climate
0:16:06.880,0:16:13.760
crisis. So, I think that for the climate movement
right now, our best strategy is to just focus on
0:16:13.760,0:16:20.080
on on explaining or showing those connections and,
you know, asking like, okay, how is climate change
0:16:20.080,0:16:25.680
connected to capitalism? How is it connected
to war or to genocide, for example? Absolutely.
0:16:25.680,0:16:30.880
I completely agree with you and I also agree
with you that people have so much to deal with
0:16:30.880,0:16:36.720
that they are unable to deal with the enormity of
every issue. Uh it's a kind of attention fatigue,
0:16:36.720,0:16:44.320
right? So, for sure we also probably feel a great
lack of control because you can't really control
0:16:44.320,0:16:50.480
or manage everything that's going on around
you. Much of it is not actually caused by us
0:16:51.360,0:16:56.240
as individual humans, right? It's they're
collective decisions that are made and collective
0:16:56.240,0:17:01.840
ways in which we live as societies that lead
to these crisis. So, but I truly get your point
0:17:01.840,0:17:08.720
about highlighting the interconnectedness of these
issues and so what do you think is needed actually
0:17:08.720,0:17:13.280
to highlight the systemic entanglement and the
deep interconnectedness of all these issues and
0:17:13.280,0:17:18.960
crises? Yeah, I mean, I think that's such an
important question really. Um, but I also think
0:17:18.960,0:17:24.880
it's a difficult one and I'm not sure I
have the entire answer for you, but I think what
0:17:24.880,0:17:31.840
what this polycrisis that you speak about what
what it requires um from all of us is to confront
0:17:31.840,0:17:38.640
just the complexity of the challenges that are
laying before us. And I think confronting this
0:17:38.640,0:17:44.400
complexity isn't always easy for people. I mean,
of course, it's so it would be so much easier to
0:17:44.400,0:17:52.160
have easy answers. But, for example, for me while
I was conducting my research what really stood out
0:17:52.160,0:17:58.640
what that it was a massive problem was this logic
of control and domination that is perpetuated by
0:17:58.640,0:18:04.880
coloniality or by a colonial mindset. And what
I mean with this is this kind of attitude that
0:18:04.880,0:18:11.280
perpetuates an idea of like okay this is mine and
I'm entitled to it. No. I think this is what has
0:18:11.280,0:18:19.440
led to exploitation and dispossession not only of
our ecosystems and the whole of the earth systems,
0:18:19.440,0:18:25.120
but also of entire nations or people
that are being dehumanized and that are currently
0:18:25.120,0:18:30.960
enduring genocide. And I think it's also the
same logic that enables the oppression of women,
0:18:30.960,0:18:38.000
of people of color, of workers, of everyone in the
LGBTQ plus community. So I think that for me using
0:18:38.000,0:18:43.120
this notion of coloniality and the logic behind
it that allows you to make these connections
0:18:43.120,0:18:49.520
and go like, oh yeah, that's actually a really
harmful mind mindset, isn't it? And then you can
0:18:49.520,0:18:54.640
ask yourself okay if this is such a harmful
mindset what is there what is an alternative
0:18:54.640,0:19:00.240
and for me the alternative to coloniality goes
back to pluriversality. So what we were talking
0:19:00.240,0:19:07.680
about in the hashtag right is the notion that
is in opposition to a logic of domination. So
0:19:07.680,0:19:13.920
it doesn't aim to dominate each other whether you
are a human or an animal or an ecosystem but it's
0:19:13.920,0:19:20.720
trying to cultivate kinship and relationality. So
I would say that instead of saying this is mine,
0:19:20.720,0:19:26.560
I am entitled to it which is you know behind the
the colonial mindset is more of we can coexist
0:19:26.560,0:19:32.960
and we can let each other thrive even when we
are different. So if coloniality wants to shape
0:19:32.960,0:19:38.400
the entire world on its own image then I would
say that pluriversality says well we can have
0:19:38.400,0:19:44.320
different multiple worlds and that's all fine.
Yeah. So, at least this is a way in which
0:19:44.320,0:19:53.840
I feel that connections between these different
crisis could find a little bit of a meeting
0:19:53.840,0:19:59.520
point if I can say that. Yeah. I love that you
frame the solution from a human perspective that
0:19:59.520,0:20:07.360
humans need to get together and interact engage
with each other to take something forward. Uh,
0:20:07.360,0:20:13.040
of course, we do live in a technologically
mediated world. So what if any is is a role that
0:20:13.040,0:20:17.680
technology can play? Is there a concrete way in
which technology can help us create these linkages
0:20:17.680,0:20:23.520
in a successful way? Well, I think that,
for sure, I mean I would say that yes, there is
0:20:23.520,0:20:30.080
a way in which technology could be helpful. Or
at least this is what I argue in my dissertation
0:20:30.080,0:20:35.440
on the technopolitics of the climate movement. You
know, as I said at the beginning of this podcast,
0:20:35.440,0:20:43.280
I am an internet enthusiast, you know, 90s kid
and I saw what the internet was becoming when
0:20:43.280,0:20:48.800
it was at its early stages and that it was this
place where we could all like express ourselves,
0:20:48.800,0:20:53.760
communicate with each other. I mean, of course,
there was always a darker side of it, but there
0:20:53.760,0:21:01.280
was a really bright side of it as well. And I
think that the idea for me would be okay, how can
0:21:01.280,0:21:08.960
we take this technology and shape it in a way that
it actually allows us to have that relationality
0:21:08.960,0:21:14.800
and to have that coexistence to communicate with
each other in much more constructive ways. Because
0:21:14.800,0:21:22.720
the way that the internet seems to be shaped
right now, it really seems to be leading us to
0:21:22.720,0:21:31.200
polarization to misinformation to just you know being quite depressed about the state of the
0:21:31.200,0:21:37.280
world. I don't think that at the current state
of the internet is quite constructive in sort
0:21:37.280,0:21:42.800
of like enabling this pluriversality that we've
been talking about. Yeah, I do agree. You're a
0:21:42.800,0:21:47.760
climate activist yourself, Patty, and we've been
talking about all these different ways, right?
0:21:47.760,0:21:53.840
And the different ways in which we can support
climate action and also the different obstacles
0:21:53.840,0:22:00.320
that seem to be there. So, what do you think are
good practices that climate activists can adopt
0:22:00.320,0:22:07.120
now in the world we live in to keep the movement
alive and to re-enter attention in this age of
0:22:07.120,0:22:13.040
accelerated climate change and also fractured
attention spans? Yeah. No, thank you for this
0:22:13.040,0:22:17.920
question. I think it is deeply relevant. I mean,
as someone who cares so much about the climate
0:22:17.920,0:22:23.680
crisis and that continues to see the urgency
to address the ecological breakdown and and
0:22:23.680,0:22:30.880
climate crisis we're witnessing, I do think it's
important for climate activists to continue to
0:22:30.880,0:22:38.240
show the connections between the climate crisis
and the polycrisis and other struggles. But I
0:22:38.240,0:22:45.600
also think that we can turn the question around
a little bit and we can also ask okay how can we,
0:22:45.600,0:22:51.920
as climate activists, support other movements
or support other struggles by showing how the
0:22:51.920,0:22:58.160
issue of climate is actually related to
them, to their struggles. So, for example,
0:22:58.160,0:23:05.520
this question reminds me of a research trip that
I did to Aotearoa, New Zealand and it was very
0:23:05.520,0:23:11.600
insightful when I was there to witness how Maori
activists would integrate the issue of the climate
0:23:11.600,0:23:18.640
crisis to their experience of western colonization
and their current struggles for decolonization. So
0:23:18.640,0:23:22.880
what these activists were trying to do is that
they were explaining to the people around them
0:23:22.880,0:23:28.880
that the climate crisis was one of the latest
manifestations of coloniality. And so I think
0:23:28.880,0:23:33.760
you know when when you do that when you say like
hey the climate crisis is just a manifestation
0:23:33.760,0:23:41.520
of this issue that we are trying to fix it might
de-center quote unquote climate but you know it
0:23:41.520,0:23:47.120
it the centers it in a way that maybe it doesn't
appear as the single biggest issue that everyone
0:23:47.120,0:23:52.720
has to care about first before anything else
but I think that at the end of the day it still
0:23:52.720,0:23:57.760
continues to do the job of raising awareness
of how dangerous climate change is for all
0:23:57.760,0:24:04.160
us and how interconnected it is to other systems
of oppression. So it gets people still interested
0:24:04.160,0:24:11.280
and engaged in solving the climate crisis and and
I think that in the end this is quite helpful for
0:24:11.280,0:24:16.640
the movement, yeah, to be interconnected with
other struggles and not apart. I totally agree.
0:24:16.640,0:24:24.320
In fact, as you were speaking, I remembered an
example the recent women's day march in Amsterdam.
0:24:24.320,0:24:30.000
I know a group of vegan girls who went to the
march with the idea that this is intersectional.
0:24:30.000,0:24:36.640
Feminism and environment and food are
intersectional issues and this is this is what we
0:24:36.640,0:24:42.720
need right to bring all these topics together on
the table under one umbrella. Yeah. So really good
0:24:43.440,0:24:48.560
point of view, Patty. But I want to shift gears a
little bit and think about big tech because we are
0:24:48.560,0:24:57.520
living in this uh now public frenzy of big tech.
Right? So is there an irony in using technology to
0:24:57.520,0:25:04.480
fight big tech? Big tech is something I mean the
climate crisis is sort of also a result of the
0:25:04.480,0:25:11.040
technological changes that have taken place in
the world right. So we are using technology to,
0:25:11.040,0:25:17.120
in a way, push back against big tech which is a
key player in accelerated climate change, right?
0:25:17.120,0:25:22.720
You have energy guzzling data-centers and so many
environmental impacts so what is your view on this
0:25:22.720,0:25:28.640
no I mean I think it's exactly what you say it is
an irony there's definitely an irony there and and
0:25:28.640,0:25:34.800
it is an irony that I that I try to bring at the
center of my research so it is definitely true
0:25:34.800,0:25:40.480
that in the last few years climate activists have
used a lot of tools and and platforms that are in
0:25:40.480,0:25:47.520
themselves perpetuating the climate crisis. And I
think what this points out to is our need to have
0:25:47.520,0:25:53.680
better technology, better internet. You know, it's
an internet that is not owned by billionaires and
0:25:53.680,0:25:59.680
that it is actually better aligned to the goals
of our social movements. So for me, you know,
0:25:59.680,0:26:04.640
I mean the one of the latest, the last chapters
of my dissertation deals with this question of,
0:26:04.640,0:26:09.840
okay, how do we actually achieve that better
internet because I think that it's important
0:26:09.840,0:26:16.000
to not necessarily equate technology with
destruction but to say like technology can be
0:26:16.000,0:26:21.760
constructive but we have to design it in that
way. We have to make sure that it actually,
0:26:21.760,0:26:27.280
you know, that the materials that are used for
it are ethically sourced that you know that the
0:26:27.280,0:26:33.920
way that this for instance like particularly
dealing with the internet I deal with it as a
0:26:33.920,0:26:40.400
layer technology. So the internet functions as
a material or yeah functions through sorry as
0:26:40.400,0:26:45.040
a material infrastructure but it also functions
through protocols. It also functions through the
0:26:45.040,0:26:51.440
algorithms that dictate okay this is how websites
or platforms are going to work. So if you sort
0:26:51.440,0:26:56.720
of expand the internet in these different layers
then you can see different practices that you can
0:26:56.720,0:27:02.800
engage in. So for instance asking okay how are we
powering the internet? Is there a different way in
0:27:02.800,0:27:10.080
which we could power the internet materials that
are either ethically sourced or that are recycled?
0:27:10.080,0:27:14.880
um and how would that change how the internet
looks right now? And then it would be the same
0:27:14.880,0:27:20.320
with um the protocols or the algorithms. Is
there a way in we can change the protocols that
0:27:20.320,0:27:25.840
we use right now in a way that they are actually
a little bit more aligned to um you know promoting
0:27:25.840,0:27:31.920
or cultivating this relation relationality. So
these are the kind of practices that I'm really
0:27:31.920,0:27:38.880
interested in exploring and that I would really
point out to to activists really that that want to
0:27:38.880,0:27:44.480
use the internet to keep organizing but that want
to do it in a responsible way. Wow. A groundup
0:27:44.480,0:27:50.320
ethically sourced peopledriven internet. I love
it. Patty, what are the risks of continuing to use
0:27:50.320,0:27:57.120
technology the way that we are using it right now?
Well, I would say that if we would just ignore the
0:27:57.120,0:28:04.240
the impact, the negative impact that the internet
has on the world and and the movement as in its
0:28:04.240,0:28:08.960
current form, then the danger is that, you know,
as climate activists, we're never going to get at
0:28:08.960,0:28:15.440
the root of the climate crisis, like truly at the
root of it. So, I personally see big tech as this
0:28:15.440,0:28:20.720
materialization of the colonial mindset, right?
You have these billionaires that are aiming to
0:28:20.720,0:28:25.520
own and dominate everything and everyone on
the planet. And I would just say like think
0:28:25.520,0:28:30.880
of how easy it was for instance for Elon Musk to
decide overnight that he wanted to own Twitter,
0:28:30.880,0:28:36.080
right? Which up to that point, Twitter had been
this essential tool for political organization for
0:28:36.080,0:28:42.720
a lot of movements. And the fact that such power
to acquire a digital public sphere overnight that
0:28:42.720,0:28:48.560
this power is in the hands of a few people, I
think it tells you something. So I I also maybe
0:28:48.560,0:28:54.800
like I would want to point people to the work of
historian Amitav Ghosh especially his book on the
0:28:54.800,0:29:02.240
nutmeg curse and also to the art of Jonas Staal.
He has this video essay called 'Empire Island'
0:29:02.240,0:29:08.240
and these works they draw this connections between
colonialism and big tech in a really mind-blowing
0:29:08.240,0:29:12.640
way. I mean, of course, there's a lot more written
on this connection, but I really like these two
0:29:12.640,0:29:20.000
works because they blew my mind for the the the
power of their storytelling. So I just think that,
0:29:20.000,0:29:24.880
you know, we we have to confront this challenge
of big tech because we've been too comfortable
0:29:24.880,0:29:30.000
letting billionaires shape the technologies
and services that we use every day. But,
0:29:30.000,0:29:34.400
I think that as users, we also have to acknowledge
that, you know, these so-called services aren't
0:29:34.400,0:29:39.760
really serving us anymore. In fact, I think they
are stealing away our future. And I would say that
0:29:39.760,0:29:46.160
it is time that as users we reclaim that future
by being more hands-on on the kind of technologies
0:29:46.160,0:29:52.320
that that we design and and that we use every
day. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. I love that energy. I
0:29:52.320,0:29:57.360
also love that you mentioned Amitav Ghosh and his
book, The Nutmeg's Curse. It truly drives home the
0:29:57.360,0:30:02.400
deep-seated interconnectedness of our natural
world and our historic and present engagement
0:30:02.400,0:30:06.720
with it. Of course, that's precipitating all these
crises. So the artists and the authors that you're
0:30:06.720,0:30:12.960
talking about it really very very valuable. Is
there a model or approach you've seen work well
0:30:12.960,0:30:20.480
in addressing techdriven social change? Well, I
think that for me what I've seen that works quite
0:30:20.480,0:30:25.360
well or at least I mean I don't know if it works
perfectly, but it's the thing that I find the most
0:30:25.360,0:30:33.360
fascinating and and really perhaps impactful
is that I've been involved recently in what we
0:30:33.360,0:30:43.280
call like maker spaces or fab labs. And these are,
basically, like spaces where people and creators
0:30:43.280,0:30:51.760
can explore and reclaim their ability to envision
and design technologies basically. I'm also
0:30:51.760,0:31:00.240
involved in just amplifying the work of artists
or creators that are designing and exploring like
0:31:00.240,0:31:06.320
alternative artifacts, alternative technologies
to to those of big tech. And it's a lot of sort of
0:31:06.320,0:31:14.240
do-it-yourself projects where people learn to be
less scared about designing and using alternative
0:31:14.240,0:31:19.760
technologies, right? And so this part, you know,
when you talk about okay, what is an approach
0:31:19.760,0:31:27.040
that works for me this part really is less about
the theory and more about the practice, for me,
0:31:27.040,0:31:32.480
in the context of the climate movement this means,
you know, getting at the practices of taking the
0:31:32.480,0:31:39.040
internet out of the hand of big tech corporations
and starting to make an internet that will mean
0:31:39.040,0:31:46.480
a better technology for all of us. I would add to
this to this answer that precisely these practices
0:31:46.480,0:31:52.320
this is what I associate with the notion of
worlding that I mentioned during the first
0:31:52.320,0:31:58.160
hashtags. You remember that I was saying internet
worldings, technopolitics as worldings. It's about
0:31:58.160,0:32:03.520
building these better worlds by engaging with
artifacts in a more creative and purposeful
0:32:03.520,0:32:11.920
way. Yeah, that's actually fantastic. That really
offers a very hands-on and actionable approach
0:32:11.920,0:32:18.240
to finding solutions. If you could encourage
public debate around one issue in this space,
0:32:18.240,0:32:24.640
what would that be? I mean it's so hard to decide
on one issue but I think that I would just really
0:32:24.640,0:32:30.800
encourage people to start exploring alternatives
to big tech. I think there are so many interesting
0:32:30.800,0:32:36.880
projects emerging, so many alternatives to,
you know, the Google services, the Microsoft
0:32:36.880,0:32:42.880
services particularly you know everything that
that is around free and open-source software
0:32:42.880,0:32:50.720
initiatives. So the FOSS I think this is a very
exciting space full of possibilities. Of course
0:32:50.720,0:32:56.080
there's perhaps some people feel a little bit
intimidated by the technicality of it all, but
0:32:56.080,0:33:02.320
then I would also encourage people who are like a
little bit more tech-savvy to hold their friends
0:33:02.320,0:33:07.600
hand and be like, "Okay, let's let's engage with
technology, you know, let's see let's see where we
0:33:07.600,0:33:13.600
can where we can go together and how we can take
the internet of, yeah, of big tech hands." Patty,
0:33:13.600,0:33:21.520
you bring so much positive spirit and energy and
this hope for doing something that is going to
0:33:21.520,0:33:27.040
change the world. So, I'm really thankful to you
for doing that. But at a personal level, I want
0:33:27.040,0:33:33.120
to ask you when you look ahead, what gives you the
most hope and what keeps you awake at night about
0:33:33.120,0:33:38.880
the unfolding technopolitics of climate change?
Oh my gosh. Okay, Radika, first I have to say
0:33:38.880,0:33:46.240
I love this question, but also thank you so much
for just acknowledging the the the positivity and
0:33:46.240,0:33:53.760
the hopefulness. I have to say this is my activist
self just like coming out. But no, but let's talk
0:33:53.760,0:33:59.840
about... Yeah, let's talk about what keeps me up
at night and what gives me hope. I'll start with
0:33:59.840,0:34:06.880
the negative so then I can end on a on a high.
But I think what keeps me up at night is just
0:34:06.880,0:34:12.960
this idea that some people have just accepted that
the way the world is right now, that's the only
0:34:12.960,0:34:21.040
possible way the world can be. This notion or this
idea really scares me. I think it's complacency,
0:34:21.040,0:34:27.920
but also in sometimes it's just people's honest
lack of capacity to fight back to fight back on a
0:34:27.920,0:34:33.920
system that is oppressing them, that is exhausting
them, that is exploiting them, which okay, fair,
0:34:33.920,0:34:40.400
you know, but this is what keeps me up at night.
And on the other hand, what has given me the
0:34:40.400,0:34:48.720
most hope throughout all of this research is just
resistance. You know, I I was so lucky to run into
0:34:48.720,0:34:54.560
so many activists that, to meet so many activists,
speak with them during the course of the research
0:34:54.560,0:35:00.240
and these people are so inspiring because they
just refuse to accept that the way the world
0:35:00.240,0:35:07.040
looks right now is the only way that it can be.
And I see them as building better worlds. I see
0:35:07.040,0:35:13.120
them as building really the pluriverse. Whether
it is you know those creators that that are or
0:35:13.120,0:35:19.440
these artists that work in these maker spaces
or you know the the historians and artists
0:35:19.440,0:35:24.880
that draw these creative connections between
colonialism and big tech that tell the stories
0:35:26.080,0:35:31.040
and very importantly the people who are
also reclaiming the internet to organize
0:35:31.040,0:35:37.840
and to stand up to big oil or, you know, to the
military-industrial complex. So these people,
0:35:38.560,0:35:44.800
they're so fearless and they give me so much
hope. So, yeah, I'm very grateful to have met
0:35:44.800,0:35:50.160
so many of them throughout my research. Patty,
we need idealists and dreamers and philosophers
0:35:50.160,0:35:57.040
like you to keep us on track to believe and
to imagine and then to action a better world.
0:35:57.040,0:36:02.640
I'm amazed that this conversation came to
this point that we have alternatives that
0:36:02.640,0:36:08.000
we can think of alternatives and we can make
those alternatives possible. We do not have to
0:36:08.000,0:36:14.000
accept the status quo. That's a great learning, a
great takeaway and this has been fantastic. Thank
0:36:14.000,0:36:18.560
you so much for speaking with us. Thank you
so much. Thank you for giving me the chance
0:36:18.560,0:36:25.600
to talk about my idealism. And no, I hope
that..., I hope that the people listening
0:36:26.320,0:36:33.680
can see some value in it and feel a little bit
encouraged to try some of these alternatives.
0:36:33.680,0:36:41.600
And thank you so much for this conversation.
I really enjoyed it. Me too, Patty. Thanks.
0:36:44.880,0:36:52.640
Thank you for listening to Disrupted
Futures, a podcast brought to you by ESDiT.
0:36:52.640,0:37:02.720
This episode was produced by Stella Pekaridi
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