Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Stories of veteran service and sacrifice straight from the people driving today’s most important veterans causes and veterans organizations around the world. The show shines a spotlight on their inspiring projects making a real difference for veterans and their families, and along the way we'll hear the stories that drive them to do their best every day as they work to support veterans and their memory.
00:00:06:01 - 00:00:27:22
Speaker 1
Hey, it's Matthew Cudmore and welcome to Story Behind the Stone. Today we're joined by Doctor Megan Wang of the Royal Air Force Museum in the United Kingdom, which welcomes nearly 1 million visitors a year and holds around 1.3 million objects, including over 200 aircraft across its two sites. In this episode, we explore what it takes for Doctor Wang and her team to curate and display over a century of military aviation history.
00:00:27:23 - 00:00:34:10
Speaker 1
Doctor Wang, it was a joy to have you on the show and to hear more about your work with the museum and your research and to our listeners, thanks for tuning in.
00:00:40:11 - 00:00:59:09
Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to Story Behind the Stone, a show where we talk service, sacrifice and story, connecting with people that are doing the most interesting work and commemoration veterans causes and military history. We're so pleased to welcome to the show today, Doctor Megan Wang with the Royal Air Force Museum in the UK. Megan, it's so wonderful to have you on the show.
00:00:59:10 - 00:01:05:15
Speaker 1
Can you tell us a little bit about the Royal Air Force Air Museum and maybe get a little bit into your role on what keeps you busy day to day?
00:01:05:16 - 00:01:27:10
Speaker 2
Thank you so much to both of you for having me on the podcast. I've been a huge fan of some of your earlier episodes, so it was great to get the invitation. So I'm the historian and academic Access manager at the RAF Museum, and we have two sites, one in London, just on the site of historic RAF Hendon and one in the Midlands, which is right next door to RAF Cosford.
00:01:27:12 - 00:01:51:17
Speaker 2
And it's an amazing place to be. We've got 1.3 million items or just over that in our collection. We're doing lots of different things in that place. One of the areas I love talking about is our original grave markers, however, which perhaps we'll talk a little bit about later on. We've got two of those which I know will be of interest to listeners, and one of them is on display at the London site in hangar two.
00:01:51:19 - 00:02:12:23
Speaker 2
And this is in a display case that's next to, some of the stories of flying aces and the early aviation industry. And that's kind of where my research interests lie now. So although I'm a historian of commemoration and death and bereavement practices in the 20th century, I'm also becoming very familiar with air power, history and all of those aspects as well.
00:02:13:00 - 00:02:31:23
Speaker 2
So in terms of what keeps me busy, it's lots of different things. And I know it's really cliche to say that no two days are the same, but it is actually true. One day it could be that I'm completely down a rabbit hole in research. Because I work within the archives and library team, which is incredible. I walk through the library to get to work every day, which is a dream.
00:02:31:23 - 00:02:43:08
Speaker 2
But also I support researchers with their research interests and also help them to disseminate their research through our research program, which says research a lot, which includes conferences and lectures.
00:02:43:08 - 00:02:57:14
Speaker 1
Research is a big part of what you've done and how you've gotten into this group, because you actually did your doctorate in the area of commemoration, too. Why don't you help us understand a little bit about that background?
00:02:57:15 - 00:03:15:20
Speaker 2
My research interests, in the commemoration and care of First World War dead buried in the UK specifically. And I've just started to branch out into the Second World War dead as well. That came as a result of the historian's dream, where basically I had a question and I wanted to answer it, and I was lucky enough to do a PhD in it.
00:03:15:22 - 00:03:31:00
Speaker 2
So it was while I was working for the Commonwealth War Graves Commission that I kept getting asked why there were war graves in the UK, and I didn't know the answer, and I couldn't find a book that told me why. So I thought, I'll do a PhD on that, maybe naively, but hopefully the PhD thesis does make sense to people.
00:03:31:02 - 00:04:03:18
Speaker 2
And over the following three years, I just fell in love with the topic. I'd already been interested in commemoration practices, but it was just a completely different world in terms of the uniqueness of some of the war graves in the UK, and it's a really good example of differences between private versus public bereavement, in the sense of when you go to the former battlefields, you have an expectation of what you're going to find, whereas you can't have that in UK cemeteries because family might have put them in war graves plots, they might put them in family graves, they might have chosen a private memorial.
00:04:04:00 - 00:04:20:23
Speaker 2
So although you can look out for green signs saying there are war graves here, you're going to be spending about 45 minutes in a cemetery that it would take you far less time to go around town court, for example, because all the graves are where you expect them to be, which I love. And I think it's just continued since then.
00:04:21:04 - 00:04:23:18
Speaker 2
So any time I get to talk about commemoration, I get very excited.
00:04:23:19 - 00:04:49:20
Speaker 1
We have a lot of cemeteries here, and we had in Canada a lot of the Commonwealth er training facility. So we had people coming from all over the world training and in that there was a lot of airmen who lost their lives in training. And one of the things I noticed, especially in Calgary, walking around, you'll see there's the Commonwealth war graves plot, but then there's these individual graves that are Commonwealth headstones that are kind of speckled without.
00:04:49:20 - 00:04:57:00
Speaker 1
So I imagine some of the similarities between what's happening in the UK is happening here in Canada as well.
00:04:57:01 - 00:05:25:03
Speaker 2
Yeah. And that's something that I remember when I was working CWG see those, those comparisons were coming to the forefront when we were talking about the UK. We'd speak to our Canadian colleagues and I'd be like, yeah, we've got that too. Let's, let's talk about it. Let's connect and think about how we share that. And I think it's really interesting in the sense of, so I'm next to an RAF station at the moment, and you go into the nearby churchyard and there's a lot of service personnel who serve with the Royal Air Force.
00:05:25:05 - 00:05:49:01
Speaker 2
And I've given tours in the past to places like RAF Cranwell, which is where all of the officers cadets go through their training, and there are war graves there, and they'll go across the road to the cafe, but won't necessarily go into the church opposite, and it's actually explained to them. It's their forbearers that have unfortunately had training accidents, for example, or they might have had accidents while on leave and they've been buried in that local space.
00:05:49:03 - 00:06:13:15
Speaker 2
And I think the Wjec has this perception of being very rigid with its policies. But when you go into places like Canada or in the UK, you see that that adaptability has to be a core part of the organization where you are engaging with family, you're engaging with quite difficult conversations in terms of losing, a family member, whether that's a son, a husband, whoever.
00:06:13:17 - 00:06:29:04
Speaker 2
And so you're having to try quite carefully and you can see those examples in things like the inquiry's files, which were a really key resource for me, this adaptability about trying to balance a moral issue with what the organization needs to do, which I find really cool.
00:06:29:07 - 00:06:57:17
Speaker 1
You look at the CWG scene, they have about 25,000 sites, and the vast majority of those sites contain 2 to 3 graves. It's not necessarily their cemetery. They are responsible for some headstones in there. There's this this huge consideration for what the family wanted. And yet it was the Commonwealth War Graves Commission historically was there to take care of and tend to the First World War and Second World War, war dead.
00:06:57:17 - 00:07:01:02
Speaker 1
So that's an interesting balance of humanity and policy.
00:07:01:02 - 00:07:20:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I think you've hit the nail on the head there. So in the UK and on the island of Ireland as well, 90% of the grave sites contain fewer than ten graves. And so it's that balance of a lot of the time the family were buried that individual. And so they might they is in the commission might not even have the grave rise.
00:07:20:01 - 00:07:40:11
Speaker 2
So before they even touch anything, they have to go to the family or the next of kin. And you can see that even today, when they need to replace headstones and things. And I find it really interesting thinking more generally. I'm aware that both of you are a Canadian, but actually the reason why the work in the UK starts happening is because of Dominion forces like Canadians.
00:07:40:11 - 00:08:01:19
Speaker 2
New Zealanders and Australians going, hey, we're demobilizing, we've been looking after our war dead in these specific plots. What are you going to do about this? Because we're all going home. We need someone to look after them because they can't go home. They're not being repatriated. And so I find it really interesting again, thinking about the context of the British Empire at the time as well, how these conversations are going on.
00:08:01:21 - 00:08:26:03
Speaker 2
And you can see that with there's very strong connections to different communities with the wider elements of what is the British Commonwealth today. So for example, near the RAF Museum, just down the road is a place called Cannock. Cannock Chase is famous for the German military cemetery. There. But in the cemetery in front of it, there are a number of British Empire war dead and the majority are New Zealanders because they were based there.
00:08:26:05 - 00:08:41:05
Speaker 2
Where I grew up, down in Kent, there's quite a number of Canadian hospitals there and also Canadian depots there, including at Sean Cliffe Military Cemetery down in Folkestone and also up at Orpington in northwest Kent, which is really interesting too.
00:08:41:05 - 00:09:01:04
Speaker 1
It sounds like the forces like, let's say a New Zealander. They were tending to the grave of their comrade that had lost their lives. And then there's concern and care for that individual as they demobilized him went. It's like, what's going to happen to the memory of our friend who's kind of removed from the major site? Is that kind of what I heard?
00:09:01:05 - 00:09:22:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. So there's there's this worry that those graves are going to become overgrown and especially one of the things that, the High Commission is representing Canada, Australia and New Zealand in particular at this time, say, is, how are you going to manage this when people are going to make pilgrimages from our home countries to Europe, to go to the former battlefields?
00:09:22:22 - 00:09:43:23
Speaker 2
So for Canadians, they'll probably be going to Vimy. And if they're from the Netherlands area, a place like Beaumont Hamel, and then they'll probably go to the UK to see if there's multiple siblings or multiple relatives and they're going to look at these beautiful cemeteries along the former battlefields, which we know and visit all the time. But then they come to the UK and it's in the back of a churchyard, overgrown.
00:09:44:03 - 00:10:03:21
Speaker 2
You can barely find it. And how are you? How are you? Is the commission going to be able to deal with that? And that kind of wakes the commission up because at this time as well, it's also when they're getting a lot of pushback for their initial policies, which includes a parliamentary debate in 1920 saying, why are they allowed spikes exact the way that I do.
00:10:04:01 - 00:10:27:04
Speaker 2
But then the commission realizes in order to take on the war dead of the wider elements of the British Empire, they also have to think about how are they going to commemorate the British war dead for those who are buried locally to their families? And so it's a lot of adaptation that is very similar to what's going on on the continent, but is an added layer because the families have slightly more autonomy, because it's their grave, right?
00:10:27:04 - 00:10:28:22
Speaker 2
Their funeral, their cemetery.
00:10:28:22 - 00:10:31:11
Speaker 1
What are the questions that you're hearing as you're trying these groups around?
00:10:31:11 - 00:10:49:03
Speaker 2
I always say this in quite a lighthearted way, and I think you have to have a particular sense of humor to be interested in quite a somber subject. I get a lot of unsolicited cemetery pictures from family members, which I love and I still enjoy, to the point where, for example, my uncle might be working and I'll be like.
00:10:49:03 - 00:11:09:10
Speaker 2
I went on my lunch break to my nearby cemetery. I saw this and thought of you. Or someone reads my work and they go, oh, now I go to your site. I went here yesterday. Here's some pictures and I love that. That's the way that people engage, because there are a lot of misconceptions like, say, they're expecting these cemeteries that are very, manicured.
00:11:09:11 - 00:11:36:17
Speaker 2
There's going to be lots of plants and things like that. And the reality is it's very different. And sometimes it can be for example, a private memorial, but sometimes it could also be that the family members have made it look like that's their central point of commemoration for someone who's buried overseas. So in the UK and I imagine it's the same in Canada, there's a lot of family graves that will say, here lies so-and-so family, including, let's say, a son.
00:11:36:22 - 00:11:55:16
Speaker 2
And it might mention that they're buried in France, which is a very general term for Western Europe, but it might just say that they're buried here or it's implied. And so I get a lot of people going, well, how comes they're buried here? And they're also buried in Villas Brittany, for example. And then you have to go online and say, no, they're not buried here.
00:11:55:18 - 00:12:11:03
Speaker 2
But the family wouldn't have been able to hop on a ferry or a plane or something like that and be it mainland Europe as frequently. So they had to think about other ways of how they engaged with the war dead and made their own ways of engaging in that private commemoration.
00:12:11:03 - 00:12:18:19
Speaker 1
You mentioned Cannock Chase earlier, a fascinating site for a variety of reasons. You actually wrote something about it. Could you share a little bit about that?
00:12:18:19 - 00:12:38:21
Speaker 2
So one of my chapters looked at, international war graves, both enemy and allied, because I think it's important that we contextualize it within that space. And part of that came from I went to a conference during my PhD, and, it was very early on. I was a little bit naive, and I kind of set in a room full of academics.
00:12:38:21 - 00:12:56:12
Speaker 2
I was like, hey, this is really unique to Britain. And it was a room full of academics from central and southern Europe, and they were like, it's not that unique to have your war dead buried at home. You might want to look at this from a slightly different angle. And I'm very grateful that they said that, because a lot of other combatant nations actually allowed their war that to be brought home.
00:12:56:14 - 00:13:21:10
Speaker 2
And Cannock Chase is interesting because throughout the interwar period, the Germans were very interested in that war dead. That's the point. There's lots of conversations about having war gravesites at places like Potters Bar, as well as Cannock Chase, going up to Cannock Chase and transferring soil to go back to Germany to family members taking cuttings of rhododendrons or posting them in the gravesite as part of symbolic trips.
00:13:21:10 - 00:13:46:16
Speaker 2
There are, of course, the darker connections to the Nazi period and the Third Reich. In that time, in terms of having, I can't remember the German phraseology, and I don't speak German, but the translation is Heroes Memorial Day. And so there's some commemorative events there. But then as time goes on, the folks bond start taking on responsibility and they decide to concentrate all of the war graves around the UK.
00:13:46:16 - 00:14:13:07
Speaker 2
The aren't already in war graves plots to Cannock Chase German military cemetery, which, if you haven't been, is a really interesting site. It is very similar to other German military cemeteries in terms of having multiple occupancies in the graves. The headstones are written on back to back and it's a very somber site. And just because of things like the darker headstones and that sort of thing, and that comes into existence in the early 60s.
00:14:13:12 - 00:14:33:15
Speaker 2
But it's a conversation that's being had with the commission, because although they're not responsible for these graves, they've got the experience of doing a lot of this work. And what I found quite interesting was the folks found actually had an office in Maidenhead, which pre-dates the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. Being in Maidenhead, they go into Maidenhead I think in the 60, the 70s.
00:14:33:15 - 00:14:58:00
Speaker 2
Sorry. Whereas the folk spend a year in Maidenhead from the late 50s and there's conversations between the Ministry of Defense and places like that to make sure that they've got all of the correct policies and procedures of exhuming remains in the UK under UK law. There's a lot of conversations as well between the families in terms of do they want their loved one repatriated back to Germany and Austria?
00:14:58:00 - 00:15:19:21
Speaker 2
And it's kind of focused actually on the border at more so than the First World War, because the logic was that 50 years have passed by this point, roughly, not many people are necessarily going to be thinking about that postwar debt when compared to those who died between 1939 and 1945, because that's a little bit more closer to people that they would know.
00:15:20:02 - 00:15:40:02
Speaker 2
And in living memory. So there are actually a lot of, First World War graves that are sometimes forgotten. And so there's some in Bedfordshire and places like that where they weren't kept on a maintenance agreement because they became the expense responsibility. But for one reason or another, they weren't moved. And so you're uncovering these in the UK as well.
00:15:40:02 - 00:16:03:21
Speaker 2
And the creation of Cannock Chase gives us a really clear example of what is possible in terms of creating this very centralized site of memory, which is what is expected in the German sense. And I think it's really important, you know, when you go to battlefields, cemeteries, a lot, a lot of people, as an aside, will say to you, which type of architecture do you prefer?
00:16:03:21 - 00:16:24:04
Speaker 2
And I think that's the wrong question they're asking. I think the right question that they should be asking is, why is this different from what I'm expecting? Landmark is a somber because if people they lost the war and all those sorts of rhetorics, it's a different commemorative style. And that's what I think draws me constantly back to commemoration more generally.
00:16:24:04 - 00:16:39:04
Speaker 2
And it there's an amazing book by Tim Grady who's written about both British war graves buried in Germany and German war graves buried in Britain. And that really answered a lot of my questions as well. But I'd love to know more about that, too.
00:16:39:05 - 00:16:56:10
Speaker 1
You have a particular interest in the First World War. And what you said there was, was interesting. And I think maybe societally, when you look at just how close those two world wars happened to each other, what is your take in that First World War and how that might have been forgotten?
00:16:56:11 - 00:17:16:12
Speaker 2
I think it's interesting to look at it, especially when we think of about ten years ago now, when the centenary commemorations were at their peak, because that was arguably a bit of a loss of interest in mobile commemoration in that time. And so it almost flips it around. And like you say, between the First and Second World War as a roughly a generation.
00:17:16:12 - 00:17:32:16
Speaker 2
So chances are a father could have died in the First World War. And let's say a son or daughter could have died in the Second World War. And that could have been a very real reality. And I think there was this expectation in the interwar period that that was the war to end all wars. So let's move on from it.
00:17:32:17 - 00:17:52:21
Speaker 2
Remember, things privately do that never forget and that sort of thing. And then the war comes around. And with the Second World War, there's a lot more mythology in a slightly different way. There's a very clear enemy in terms of Adolf Hitler, and this good versus evil, whereas the First World War doesn't have that in quite the same way.
00:17:52:21 - 00:18:20:16
Speaker 2
But I think as well, there's also that element of, there's so much that is encompassed within the Second World War. You know, from an RAAF perspective, there are some key anniversaries that I've always in someone's calendar, and that's exactly the same for the Army and the Navy as well. But I think there is that element of focusing on the future after the First World War and rebuilding, and then the Second World War comes around and there's been a lot learned from the First World War as well, in commemorative spaces.
00:18:20:16 - 00:18:39:10
Speaker 2
Again, we were talking about this with your incredible work with Memory Anchor. In terms of First World War sites, a slightly more hodgepodge, for want of a better word. You've got the battlefield cemeteries, you've got the hospital cemeteries, you've then got the concentration cemeteries where they've had to bring in a number of war graves from the surrounding areas.
00:18:39:12 - 00:18:59:19
Speaker 2
And that's exactly the same in the UK. You have, First World War graves scattered throughout site. Usually the Second World War, however, throws rounds. The WGC had been in existence at that point for just over 20 years, so almost pretty much the same amount of time. The first World Wars ended. They've just finished doing all of the First World War cemeteries.
00:18:59:19 - 00:19:26:23
Speaker 2
So 1938 is when that finishes with villas Brittany. So they've kind of tested and adjusted their policies and their procedures. By the time of Boris, they're already speaking to in the UK cemetery authorities to say, can I have that plot of land over there for some war graves? Because we know that they're going to be war dead? Ditto with, the battlefield fronts, thinking about how they're going to organize these things.
00:19:27:01 - 00:19:49:07
Speaker 2
And I think because they are more regimented, it's easier to manage in that sense. And then on top of that, you've got things like travel and tourism kind of becoming more popular with with greater ease of travel. You've also got this interest in remembering the relatives of died in the Second World War. And so you are doing more of these trips.
00:19:49:07 - 00:20:10:19
Speaker 2
And I think then around that time, the last veterans of the First World War started to die out in the late 50s, the 60s and the 70s. And so you've not got that tangible link anymore. Is it shifting out of to the memory in a more popular sense, in terms of grandparents, a passing away? Whereas parents who served in the Second World War are still around.
00:20:10:21 - 00:20:37:07
Speaker 2
And I think that's kind of the cultural shift that we're seeing now with things like this year, we had the death of the last pilot in the Battle of Britain, for example, and seeing all of that living memory come in is really interesting. So I think I'd be intrigued to see if we had this conversation in ten years from now, whether we'd say it's gone back to that sort of 1950s, 1960s time where the First World War shifted out of living memory, and the Second World War was back to the front.
00:20:37:08 - 00:21:02:20
Speaker 1
We were so lucky to be in Normandy for the 80th with World War Two veterans, but they're all in their hundreds and they're passing, and it's marking the passing of the torch. I'm curious to hear from your perspective, what's the future of commemoration going to look like in ten, 15, 20, 30 years when we commemorate the First and Second World War?
00:21:02:22 - 00:21:26:01
Speaker 2
I think it's going to be so interesting. And the reason why I say that is because certainly in in Britain, as time has gone on, we've also brought in more modern conflicts into that commemoration. But of course, modern conflicts haven't sustained mass death in quite the same way as two world wars. That's not to say that it wasn't traumatic to experience those deaths, but it's been a very different experience of warfare.
00:21:26:03 - 00:21:53:02
Speaker 2
And I think it's it's adapting that commemorative style, to presuming that someone doesn't have that personal connection. So not everyone is like me with a massive need for commemoration and know where their relatives are and those sorts of things, but it's actually taking it a step back and thinking about the connections in other ways. So some of the things that I've done when I've been working, in commemorative spaces is I've taken school groups.
00:21:53:04 - 00:22:17:21
Speaker 2
So adjusting it to different needs. Now, of course, when I'm with primary school children, I don't really want to go into the very key details about death and commemoration. So I often say to them, go up to the headstone and say, hi Charlie, or whoever it is that's in that grave. So they feel comfortable in these spaces, so that then when they get older and they go to the battlefields, they know how to act respectfully, but can also ask their questions about death and things.
00:22:17:21 - 00:22:35:23
Speaker 2
And one of my one of those tours was really interesting because as we were walking out, one of the students said to me, I'd love to have a grave like this. And I was like, that's quite morbid for a seven year old to say, but I understood what they were trying to say. I think as well, it's thinking about connecting it to where you're from.
00:22:35:23 - 00:22:54:02
Speaker 2
So looking at those local histories on war memorials and thinking about what it would be like to go in the Second World War terms, going to the East Asia Theater, for example, or even going to Canada for the first time on the Empire training schemes. You know, these aren't things that they would have been able to do normally.
00:22:54:03 - 00:23:19:17
Speaker 2
And then also thinking about age and and lifestyle. I think it's about connecting people to the past through things that they know rather than expecting them to behave a certain way in the same way as a primary mourner. And what I mean by that is it might not be that they want to be very upset. It might be that they want to think about how they consider honoring that memory.
00:23:19:18 - 00:23:23:19
Speaker 2
And so I think it's going to be really interesting to see the unique ways that people do that.
00:23:23:20 - 00:23:28:23
Speaker 1
How is the museum connecting with the next generation? What are the youth engaging with most?
00:23:28:23 - 00:24:03:08
Speaker 2
We're engaging in lots of different ways, and one of my favorite ways is the RAF stories, which is our way of interviewing former and current service personnel and those with connections, CRF and we do oral history interviews, which I think, as an aside, it's really important to get people while they're alive now to do these. And it's been really rewarding to have those conversations, because a lot of these people are a bit like the First and Second World War veterans will say, my story is not that important or that interesting, and they tell you the most interesting and important story over the course of the hour that you're talking to them.
00:24:03:08 - 00:24:27:02
Speaker 2
You know, I've had it where I was interviewing a neighbor of mine, and he was like, I'm not that interesting. And it turns out he was, a V force bomber pilot, during the Cuban Missile Crisis and remembers what that experience was like. And I'm like, yeah, not interesting or important at all. And so having those within our, records, we use them within our, within our museum spaces as well.
00:24:27:05 - 00:24:51:01
Speaker 2
And that's again to connect people because it's all well and good looking at collections items and I know there are lots of people out there that love looking at aircraft or archives or things like that. But for some people, they engage by thinking about the human stories. And I think that's really interesting. So we've got things like collections online, which also makes our inventory accessible to the public so people can understand what a museum holds.
00:24:51:01 - 00:25:15:14
Speaker 2
Again, it's it's not presumed that people know what a museum holds in its collection and that everything out is just what we've got. That's not the case. We've got a reserve collection, for example, at Stafford at the moment, and it's a treasure trove of various things. And so, you know, it's a tip of the iceberg. Most museums actually only put out about 1% of all of their collection items on display.
00:25:15:16 - 00:25:39:06
Speaker 2
So it's explaining that, we've been doing things like untold stories and blogs to share that further information, and that's done through social media, which I think is a really important way of engaging. And the untold stories were utilized. So it was like a, you know, about this thing. So in this case, we were doing lots of stories about the Battle of Britain, and we didn't necessarily focus on the expected things.
00:25:39:09 - 00:25:54:21
Speaker 2
We said, you know, we know that the Battle of Britain happened between these periods and, you know, all of these elements that you would have been taught in school. But did you know, for example, the role of bomber Command in the Battle of Britain or the role of the Italian Air Force to register Nautica in the Battle of Britain?
00:25:54:23 - 00:26:18:14
Speaker 2
And so it's part of that commemorative landscape, is meeting people where they are with their knowledge base and enhancing it. And that's what I think is really important within museums, because I know museums were what got me into history, going round historic houses and museums. On a Saturday afternoon was what inspired me. I was not originally a modern historian.
00:26:18:14 - 00:26:43:14
Speaker 2
I was actually a tutor. Historically, I used to go to all the historic houses, but it was over time. I then became interested through my relatives who had died in the First World War, and I wanted to know what that was like. And then I got interested in commemoration why they were buried there and why their headstone at different to that person's has shown it has a personal inscription, and then all of a sudden you're snowballing and you're going down this rabbit hole of research and it's never ending.
00:26:43:14 - 00:27:07:06
Speaker 2
And that's what's exciting. And I think it's the same through through memory anchor, in terms of what you're doing in the sense of showing me, for example, the Tyne cot known for some notes. I've walked that landscape enough times. I could tell you exactly where a grave is. But when you're putting it into perspective through an input in interactive with, this is how many known people there are, and then all of these colors of the unknowns.
00:27:07:08 - 00:27:12:18
Speaker 2
It just adds another layer and helps people to understand what they're looking at. In quite an inclusive way.
00:27:12:19 - 00:27:22:14
Speaker 1
You were sharing earlier about your family members that are buried. I think you said three in Belgium. What were you feeling? You know, when you had the chance to to go and visit?
00:27:22:14 - 00:27:44:16
Speaker 2
It was so important. And I will admit, I cried. So everything I just said about not everyone has to cry. It was personal rather than being. That's the formulaic way you should behave. So I have four relatives I know of who died in the First World War and, downstairs I've got the deadman's penny of one of my relatives and a memorial.
00:27:44:18 - 00:28:11:02
Speaker 2
One of that where it's in a picture frame. And that, individual Charles Pilcher Bailey was petty officer, and he's buried in Alexandria, and he was serving with his battalion, and I've never been there. And it's one of those places I will want to go to, before I die myself. But I've had the privilege of having colleagues send me pictures of it on a regular basis, so I can see that is being cared for, which was really important.
00:28:11:04 - 00:28:31:06
Speaker 2
And that was my great great grandfather. The other three are all buried in Belgium or commemorated in Belgium. One is by Hyde Park Corner Cemetery. I think it's Berkshire New Cemetery. And he's my three times great uncle. Then there's also, one of my relatives is on a memorial to the missing the Menin Gate Memorial. And that's Thomas Jane's of her.
00:28:31:07 - 00:28:56:03
Speaker 2
And that experience for me is really important. Visiting memorials for the missing. It's important to visit the cemeteries. But going and touching the name, which is what I read about a lot during my PhD, was a key part of primary mourners experiences. And by primary mourners I mean like parents, partners and those sorts of things. So even now, every time I go there to see him, I just tap and say hello.
00:28:56:05 - 00:29:21:10
Speaker 2
Hello to Tommy. I don't know if he went by Tommy or Tom or Thomas, but he's Tommy to me. And that was really powerful. Then the third relative that I have is my great great grandfather. So Thomas is another three times great uncle. We believe he's on the memorials to the missing. I haven't fact check this, before listeners correct me, but the family rumor is that he was killed with the first use of the flamethrower.
00:29:21:11 - 00:29:43:03
Speaker 2
If anyone knows. Otherwise, that would be great to note that family rumor if it's true or not. But with my third to see my other great great grandfather, Charles, Bernard, he, is buried in La Fleur de farm, which is next door to Russian Farm Cemetery. And what makes him incredibly poignant is I knew his daughter.
00:29:43:04 - 00:30:09:14
Speaker 2
So the other story. I have no real connection to my great grandfather. He passed away long before I was born. But I need my great granny. My nanny baby, as she was known. She was known by her last name because that's what you did with, people at the time. But her first name is Kathleen. And the reason why it's incredibly important to me is he dies in the May of 1915, and she's born in the July of 1915.
00:30:09:16 - 00:30:34:02
Speaker 2
So she's his only child. And it's that connection to he's got a seven month old, presumably pregnant wife at home when he dies. And he's only 25, which is now younger than I am. But when I first visited him, he was only a few years older than me. Says that connection, and I remember talking to my grandma because I was one of those history nerd children and saying, had you ever visited?
00:30:34:02 - 00:30:50:13
Speaker 2
What was it like? And she said, I have no connection to this person. Why? Why would I go and visit? And I think she might have visited once in the 20s, or the 30s. But the point was, it wasn't a place for her to remember her father because he wasn't someone she knew, which I found really strange.
00:30:50:13 - 00:31:20:05
Speaker 2
And then what makes it even sadder is that she then later loses her mother. And so she's raised by her aunts and it was incredibly poignant to see the Royal Warwickshire Regiment emblem on his headstone, because she was from Birmingham, she was from Balsall Heath. If anyone knows Birmingham, and even though she lived in the South for most of her life, she always had this Birmingham twang, which is a really comforting accent for me now, which is probably, an anomaly.
00:31:20:07 - 00:31:47:01
Speaker 2
But it was really lovely to have that connection to her and that living memory that I go on about. And then there's just so many layers with it. And so I know that you've already heard this, but, oh, I indulge myself for a second. But the added layer was the connections that I had when I arrived in Belgium the day I arrived in Belgium, there were some red burials for some people who have been recovered from what is colloquially known as the iron harvest.
00:31:47:03 - 00:32:13:19
Speaker 2
I think from memory there were seven Royal Warwickshire Regiment individuals that were recovered, but only one of them was identifiable and his name was captain, Henry John Innes Walker, and he was with the Royal Works Regiment, which, as an aside, really interesting chap place with Blackheath Rugby Club, the oldest rugby club in England. He is a new Zealander by birth, who wins a scholarship to come and study at the Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst.
00:32:13:21 - 00:32:40:07
Speaker 2
So you've got that element of explaining his nationality on his headstone, of saying he's British, it's not his nationality in terms of his country of origin or birth, which is helpful when you're talking about commemoration quirk. And he was identified through, items on his person with his initials. Now, that in itself is interesting because it's the same regiment that I'm aware of, and I always try and make a concerted effort to visit all three of these, individuals.
00:32:40:07 - 00:33:01:00
Speaker 2
But what made it incredibly powerful for me was my grandmother's middle name was Ines, and she had always said to me, you are named after your father's commanding officer. And that was the end of the conversation. And then we go on to watch Strictly Come Dancing or whatever's on TV on a Saturday night. But it stuck with me.
00:33:01:02 - 00:33:18:17
Speaker 2
And, you know, I was about 6 or 7 when she said this to me, and, I saw the name in the newspaper, and my dad then messaged me separately and went, could this be the Ines with like three question marks? And, I was like, I don't know. So I went down a rabbit hole. They sat in the same regiment, bleed from memory.
00:33:18:17 - 00:33:41:15
Speaker 2
They're in the same battalion. And being RAF historian, I'm less familiar with sort of the structure of the army, but the important thing was the likelihood of their paths crossing is more likely than not. And I like to tell myself that that connection is there, that he could have been my great great grandfather's commanding officer at one point or another, and this namesake could have come in.
00:33:41:15 - 00:34:00:20
Speaker 2
And sadly, both of those men who were the exact same age when they died were left behind. But they both got these connections and these memories that are now mine to take care of. And apologies to anyone who's ever listened to me speak before, but I always say this and it's become kind of a catchphrase, but I don't really want to use that term.
00:34:00:22 - 00:34:26:21
Speaker 2
It's that you have two deaths within your lifetime, so you have the death of when you physically die, and then you also have the death the last time your name is uttered. And that's one big thing that I would love for listeners to take away. And people who are interested in commemorations take away. No matter how you choose to commemorate or how you choose to remember people, just make sure you say their names, because then they're never dying in that second death.
00:34:26:23 - 00:34:28:06
Speaker 2
And I think that's really important.
00:34:28:06 - 00:34:37:12
Speaker 1
What would you say to anyone that's listening that is considered making that tribute? You know, visit someone they might be linked to? What would you say to them?
00:34:37:16 - 00:34:58:20
Speaker 2
It's so important and I think experiencing the culture around that as well. Again, I cry at the Menin Gate no matter how many times I go to it. Not because I'm listening necessarily to the service because I now know that service inside out, but because I'm thinking of Thomas, who's across the way. And I try and stand as close to him as possible.
00:34:58:20 - 00:35:34:17
Speaker 2
But obviously with the space, that can sometimes be tricky. And thinking about my great great grandmother, hearing that her 19 year old son isn't coming home, and the descendants I'm the ancestor that I'm descended from was, I think, from memory. It wasn't born when he died because they're quite a large family. And so it's it's those connections and thinking about placing myself within those spaces and then going and walking down the streets and thinking, I wonder if they came down here when they were on rest and recuperation.
00:35:34:19 - 00:35:50:12
Speaker 2
I wonder what their experiences were like. If you've got ephemera like, the Deadman's Penny or medals or anything, try and keep them as part of that experience because I think you will never regret it, and you'll never forget that moment. The efforts went there.
00:35:50:14 - 00:35:57:01
Speaker 1
You were a guide to CWC and in Belgium, if I have that right, were there any visitors that stick out to you?
00:35:57:02 - 00:36:26:17
Speaker 2
I remember Canadians in the centenary site. Your branding was amazing, like head to toe Maple leaf coming into the cemeteries. So I know exactly where to take Canadian visitors too. Although I didn't always. I did presume once and they were actually Australian. They just got a raincoat. I think those moments are really important, but I think on a serious note, engaging and interacting with visitors that have a connection, whether that's a relative, whether that's a place.
00:36:26:19 - 00:36:51:11
Speaker 2
So in terms of researching an individual that grew up in the same town as them, the same age as them, all of those sorts of things, I think, really add to the experience. So even if your last name is not a name that is common, in terms of going on these memorials, I think, you know, going and visiting and thinking about who lived in your house or in the place where your house sits 100 years ago is really important.
00:36:51:13 - 00:37:07:23
Speaker 2
And it was just the gratitude that people showed at the end of it. They walk away and they be incredibly respectful. They also have a few jokes along the way. Because I think that's important. You can't be really sad the whole time. Otherwise it's not going to be an enjoyable trip in the sense of it being a powerful trip.
00:37:07:23 - 00:37:32:23
Speaker 2
And I think it's what the guys would have wanted. I'd like to think they were bantering as well and making those jokes to, but going away and them saying thank you and knowing that that trip is something that's going to stick with them. They've gone home and showed their family members they've made that pilgrimage for themself. And I know that there's a lot of rhetoric in the 20s and 30s about a pilgrim versus a tourist, and I think those lines have become blurred over time.
00:37:33:01 - 00:37:42:01
Speaker 2
But I was referred to visitors as pilgrims first because he wouldn't necessarily choose to go on a holiday with cemetery as a first choice unless you weren't a Pilgrim.
00:37:42:01 - 00:38:06:07
Speaker 1
Lieutenant James Koster, who's buried in grosbeak, you know, a book by Mark Zaleski, just a little passage in there talked about him. He had just been married, newly married young officer. And before going into a battle, he turned to his friend and said, after the war, I want to find a quiet street and sit there and be a friend to man.
00:38:06:09 - 00:38:44:20
Speaker 1
And that always hits me and makes me emotional, because what it showed was this young individual who was going into battle day after day and still had empathy. You know, be a friend to man is what the world needed. But he also had a duty and he continued to do that and was killed by a sniper and then buried there, played, amazing Grace at his grave on a flute that was made out of wood that came from Vimy and I remember leaving his grave just going, how many people walk by his headstone and don't know that story, don't know anything about who he was.
00:38:44:20 - 00:39:06:13
Speaker 1
And that's really what kind of birth memory anchor was like. How do we share the story? How do we connect people to these headstones? Because there's so much more to each individual than just a name on a stone. I hear that in what you do. I hear that, as you say, Tommy, that personalizing of it, you're ensuring that memory goes on.
00:39:06:13 - 00:39:13:20
Speaker 1
If there was one thing that you think people should know about commemoration, what do you think that would be?
00:39:14:02 - 00:39:39:12
Speaker 2
Say thank you for sharing that because that resonates so much with me. For those people that don't know I'm a military spouse as well as my professional life. And so although I've not served myself, I come from a service family, both free marriage and through my own family, and I often put myself in the position of those that are left behind because I can see the camaraderie that my husband has or that my father has, and people like that.
00:39:39:12 - 00:40:08:22
Speaker 2
And it's it's such an interesting space, but also thinking of the people that were left behind to grieve is really important. And I think in answer to your question about commemoration, I think it's knowing that it's okay not to get it right because there is no right answer. It's just about being respectful to the people around you in terms of thinking about you're having an individual experience of commemoration, and someone else next to you is and they're both very different.
00:40:09:00 - 00:40:31:06
Speaker 2
You might be crying, you might be making a really sarcastic joke that you know, that that individual would have liked. You may be playing music, you may be doing whatever, but there's no right answer, and your way of commemorating might change over time. You know, a lot of the original rituals that someone would have done to remember their loved one have been lost to time.
00:40:31:08 - 00:40:54:14
Speaker 2
It could be that you just remember going to your grandma's house and having this random guy in uniform and knowing who that was. It could be that that person means nothing to you, and that's okay too, because you didn't know them. But it's about knowing about them and placing them within that space is important. So I think it's yeah, about being kind and knowing there's no right way of commemorating.
00:40:54:14 - 00:41:29:15
Speaker 2
I'm currently working on ways to share my thesis more widely, and I'm trying to write some articles about different aspects of commemoration of war dead in Britain. Although I've got an expertise, I never consider myself an expert. I want to start these conversations and continue these conversations rather than saying, I know everything because I know I don't. So I've been talking about commemoration of wars that in Britain, like I say, including an article one of the RAF regional cemeteries and about museums is memorial spaces, because I think the importance of museums is memorial spaces, particularly military museums, is really underrepresented in historiography and museology.
00:41:29:15 - 00:42:00:05
Speaker 2
So I want to start that conversation, start thinking about how people engage with these spaces, try and update my blog when I get time. And that's just basically my place to brain dump and remind myself of the rabbit holes I want to go down but don't have the time to because I've got to do my day job. And I've written recently written a piece about the creation of Cannock Chase, and talks about, in an article in 2021 about interactions between the breeds in the UGC as it was known, and the inquiry's files.
00:42:00:05 - 00:42:25:13
Speaker 2
I would just say that the WGC have I think there's about 2000 of them released. And if people want to find out how the bereaved were engaging with the work, with their commemoration, as the individuals that knew these people, they're really powerful. There's lots of mundanity in terms of it could be that they just want to change the headstones slightly, or they want to give the gravesites the quick.
00:42:25:15 - 00:42:49:21
Speaker 2
Or it could be that they're trying to figure out where someone is buried, or trying to figure out how someone came to be in this particular cemetery, which I find really interesting. I'm also looking at ways to share more about the amazing connection at the RAF Museum. And I mentioned at the start about the original grave markers. There's a brilliant project called The Return from the Front project, which maps all of the original grave markers that were returned.
00:42:49:21 - 00:43:12:16
Speaker 2
And so they're the wooden grave markers that went in before the quick pit, the permanent ones in. And we put two of those at the RAF Museum, one for a chap called Norman de Pomeroy, one for Arthur James Fisher. He both served in the Royal Flying Corps. Now Arthur James Fisher's, original grave marker is on display at the RAF Museum in Hangar two in London, which is our first World War hanger.
00:43:12:18 - 00:43:36:12
Speaker 2
And I love it. And I've talked about this very briefly at the start, but I'll just share it again. This display case talks about the aces of the First World War, including people like James McCutcheon, Albert Ball, people like that. But this grave marker is written in German and it's the Germanic spelling of fisher. And it's because, German forces came across the grave and originally marked it.
00:43:36:14 - 00:44:15:18
Speaker 2
And so it shows that, first of all, that you're both combatants, both technically enemies and how that respect commemoration is. But it's also next to some objects relating to, Manfred von Richthofen, sometimes known as Red Baron. So it's talking about Manfred von Richthofen. But Manfred von Richthofen actually shoots down Arthur James Fisher. And it's one of those serendipitous weaving of these stories, you know, like you say, Brian, you know, sometimes people walk, passes graves, and they won't know the fascinating story or the connection that they have until they go into this research and you go all of a sudden, oh my goodness, I've got this connection to this or that sort of thing.
00:44:15:18 - 00:44:36:05
Speaker 2
And that was very exciting for me when I noticed that at the museum. And just as an aside, there's lots of volunteering opportunities at the RAF Museum to support that work, including, infantry volunteers. Stafford. So definitely take a look at that. And there's lots of ways to support the RAF Museum with this ongoing work as well.
00:44:36:07 - 00:44:55:23
Speaker 2
Through we've got a project called the Great Crate Escape, not the Great Escape, where we're moving objects from Stafford to the Midlands as part of the Midlands Development Program in our collections hub. And as part of that, you can sponsor a crate, and help it be made. And so you could sponsor something that is related to the First World War or towards commemoration.
00:44:55:23 - 00:45:23:06
Speaker 2
But whether you do or you don't, it's about coming along to these spaces and thinking about them. Not only is their interpretation of who they were, what they did in terms of whatever's on display, but also thinking about what they memorialize. And Brian, you mentioned about our Lancaster down in London and whether it still flies. That's a really key example of an aircraft that's also a memorial, because it lists the names of some of the pilots on it, and it memorializes some of the sorties that they did.
00:45:23:08 - 00:45:43:23
Speaker 2
And a quote from Hermann Göring, which is basically the equivalent of a middle finger to him because it's a quote saying something like, no enemy will ever fly over the Reich or something like that. Apologies for paraphrasing. And they flew over it. That was that was the whole point. And so it's it's thinking about those little ways that they engage.
00:45:44:04 - 00:45:51:23
Speaker 1
If people want to learn more about what you're doing at the museum or more about your research, where do they go? What socials can they connect with you on?
00:45:51:23 - 00:46:18:04
Speaker 2
So the RAF Museum are all on all social media platforms, and it's usually something along the lines of at RAF Museum. We've also got a website which is RAF Museum. Org so keeping up with those, which includes links to places like the RAF stories portal and finding out more about the Midlands Development Program. In addition to that, I'm on mostly on Instagram, blue Sky and LinkedIn, and I'm at Doctor Megan E Kelleher.
00:46:18:06 - 00:46:30:12
Speaker 2
But I also keep a website which is called War Graves Wanderer, which is kind of where my general musings are. And yeah, please do keep in touch and stay connected. And keep up the good work at Memory Anchor.
00:46:30:13 - 00:46:47:18
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for joining the show. We had such, such a blast. Chatting with you. Covered a lot of ground. I have a feeling we'll be welcoming you back again. Please keep us posted on all of your upcoming projects. I know that we are all instant fans, and we'll be following along with your work, and I think it would be criminal.
00:46:47:18 - 00:46:52:20
Speaker 1
Ryan, next time we're in London, if we don't stop by the RAF site, we'll be there. Please do.
00:46:52:22 - 00:46:58:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, let me know when you do. Oh, now I'll give you a, whistle stop tour around and show you some of the things.
00:47:04:06 - 00:47:23:16
Speaker 1
Thanks so much for tuning in. Story. Behind the Stone is available on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on the Rise Across America Radio Network on iHeartRadio. Audacity and tune in to search for wreath. We air every Thursday at 10 a.m. eastern on the Red Cross Radio Network. Thank you for tuning in.