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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, where we dive deep into the heart of staff wellbeing within the education sector. In each episode, we bring to the table a diverse array of guests. Including experienced teachers and leaders, experts in psychology, health and wellbeing, as well as thought leaders in the sector.
[00:00:16] Whether you're looking for practical tips, inspirational stories, or innovative approaches to wellbeing, our podcast, aim to support, inspire and empower [00:00:25] those dedicated to nurturing the next generation. I'm your host, Julie Liddell, and today I'm chatting to Lucy Green. Lucy is her psychodynamic therapist based in London.
[00:00:34] Her areas of special interest are grief and loss. She spent most of her working life as a project manager before retraining as a psychodynamic therapist. In 2022, Lucy offers individual therapy to adults, both in person and online. She also delivers [00:00:50] workshops on the topic of death and grief, as well as courses for individuals who are interested in better understanding and working with their nighttime dreams.
[00:00:58] Honestly, I love this conversation. The recording took place at 9:00 AM on Monday morning, and I wasn't sure if I was ready to have a conversation of this magnitude at that time of day, but Lucy made it so easy and I left feeling that these are exactly the sort of conversations we need to be having more [00:01:15] often.
[00:01:15] In the episode, we talk about the importance of talking about death and dying. How we can get better at having these conversations and supporting each other through the experience of grief as well as living funerals, death and grief, cafes and McDonald's. Just a quick heads up before we start, this episode touches on some sensitive topics, so do take care whilst listening.[00:01:40]
[00:01:40] Lucy, good morning. It's such a pleasure to have. You here with us? How are you? I'm very well, thank you. It's great to be here. Good. So just for a bit of context, um, you and I first met through our work, both working as Edwin as we do. Um, but over the years we've had many conversations around death and grief and our joint [00:02:05] respect and admiration for the work that.
[00:02:07] Catherine Manix does. I think that Mes was one of our first conversations. She's the author of With the End in Mind. So this week we're marking Death Awareness Week, and I could think of no one better. Than you to invite on for a chat. So, alongside your day job, you're trained in practicing, um, as a psychotherapist who works closely with people [00:02:30] navigating a wide range of some of life's most difficult transitions, but particularly around grief and loss.
[00:02:37] So can we start just by hearing a little bit about your background, Lucy? Yeah, of course. So, um, yeah, as you said, I work part-time for Edwin, which is how we, we met, I suppose. I wear quite a lot of different hats in any given week. So I am a [00:02:55] psychodynamic therapist or counselor. Um, I'm based in East London, so I'm kind of.
[00:02:59] Seeing clients in person and online offering individual therapy. And I do, um, you know, as you say, I sort of, I work with a wide range really, of presenting issues, but I do have a special interest in working with grief and loss. So to that end, I also provide, um, peer support [00:03:20] really on kind of a voluntary basis in my.
[00:03:23] Local community. Um, and so I do some work with a community interest company called Creating Conversations, uh, who are an amazing initiative and they, they kind of exist to open up spaces for conversation around death, dying, and grief. So what they offer is, uh, death cafes and [00:03:45] grief cafes, um, in our local area.
[00:03:48] And in addition to that, I also. Run, uh, some workshops and courses around dream work. So I kind of help people to. Connect with and understand their dreams. So yeah, lots, lots of different hats. Lots of different hats. And I'm definitely would like to come back to, um, the idea of peer support. Um, you know, a little bit later in the [00:04:10] conversation, I think we have to save dream work, Lucy, for a completely different podcast.
[00:04:14] I feel like there's loads for us to explore in that one. And, and, yeah. The psychodynamic kind of tenant to your work obviously kind of explains why that would be so important. I've, I've not got to get distracted by that. So Death and dying. The theme for this year's death awareness week is let's talk about death [00:04:35] and dying, and there's a lot of fear.
[00:04:38] Understandably around the conversation. Um, and I was listening to Photographer Rankin. He does a lot of exploratory and creative work around mortality, and he says that death needs a better marketing manager. Um, and I really quite liked that approach. He said, you know, it's portrayed as scary, uh, and fearful and, and, and, you know, [00:05:00] rightly so.
[00:05:00] It's understandable why many people feel uncomfortable about even hearing that word death. Can we start then just by talking a little bit about that resistance and, and your thoughts around that? Yeah. So why that's, it's the million dollar question, isn't it? Why is it so hard for us to think and talk about death?
[00:05:23] And I think, I suppose the FI [00:05:25] think there's loads of factors. I think there's loads of factors that contribute to that pers both personal and. Social, you know, kind of wider issues. But I think the first thing that comes to mind is that death is unknown. You know, it's, it's like the last frontier in a way.
[00:05:42] You know, we've, we've mapped all of the aspects of human life and anatomy and neurology and physiology in all of [00:05:50] this. And death is the one thing that we still. Don't know much about and can't fully map. And I actually think on the one hand that makes it really a really fascinating topic, and this is I think where Death cafes, perhaps we'll talk a bit about those later, but that's where death cafes can come in.
[00:06:07] But I think it also makes it incredibly scary because the unknown. Scary. Um, you know, we don't know [00:06:15] how to manage it. And I think also, you know, often, you know, most of the time people aren't in control of how they die or when they die or where they die or how that happens. And that also makes it very scary.
[00:06:31] Things we can't control in life. Can make us feel very, very fearful. I think there's loads of aspects to this. There's also something [00:06:40] around, what I kind of think of, there's probably a better term for it than this, but what I think of as. The sanitisation of death. So, you know, people often these days are not dying at home.
[00:06:53] They're dying in hospitals care, homes, hospices, palliative care settings, you know, whereas a hundred years ago, you know, most of the time people died at home, like in their own bed [00:07:05] being cared for by their own family. So there's this, you know what, whatever you may think about this, people will have different feelings on it.
[00:07:11] But there is this almost sort of like. Outsourcing of death that that's happened. That's kind of more where we're at now, and I think along with that there's kind of a, a sanitisation of our language has happened as well, so we don't. You don't [00:07:30] hear the words dead death, dying so often anymore, and I think this is why this, you know, this dying matters awareness week, this topic is really, really, really important.
[00:07:40] You know, even just the name of it, you know, let's talk about death and dying. You know, those words are in there. And personally, I far prefer those terms than the kind of passed away. Passed over, gone to sleep. [00:07:55] I dunno, this, this is very personal to me. This is very much my feeling on language. I think language really matters, and I think language is very important, particularly when you're dealing with really sensitive topics like this.
[00:08:07] I feel that, you know, the, the death of someone you love and care about is a tragedy. You know, it's, it's a momentous event that can completely change. Your life and [00:08:20] shutter your world and just to use this sort of slightly wishy-washy language around it just for me feels very incongruent and it almost feels like it diminishes that loss and that like the impact that that has on a person.
[00:08:34] It's very personal. Other people feel differently. And you know, actually if I'm, if I'm talking to someone, you know, particularly in a peer support setting, what I'll do is just try and mirror the language [00:08:45] that they use. So it's not that i'll. Go crushing in going dead, died. You know, like, obviously I'm not gonna do that, but, you know, I'm sensitive.
[00:08:52] Um, but personally, yeah, I, I feel that there's a, there's a sanitisation that's happened that I think also makes it hard to then broach as a subject with other people. Yeah. And, and there was so much of what you said there, and I think, you know, language was something that I'd been thinking about before we [00:09:10] kind of started the conversation.
[00:09:12] Um, and I've heard that said before, the, the kind of euphemisms can actually be a hindrance into understanding what we're talking about. And, and you know, as you rightly said, I do think it is personal. I think that some people. That language takes the edge off it, as you say. You know, and it takes that, and, and maybe it's in our conversations when we're not quite sure how to go into a conversation with somebody [00:09:35] who is dealing with loss, then it's maybe, it's helpful for, for that person in that supportive, um, position.
[00:09:42] But I think it's really interesting what you say about that sanitisation and that cultural norms. I think they've probably quite drastically changed, haven't they, over the, over the span of the last a hundred years really. Yeah, I, I absolutely think they have, you know, a hundred years ago people were, [00:10:00] uh, you know, care homes as they, as we know them now, wouldn't have existed, you know, um, and hospices, actually, I don't, I'm not familiar, too familiar with the sort of history of hospices, but they were probably in their infancy back then as, as care settings as well.
[00:10:16] So I do think there is a. A shift to kind of outsourcing and, and medicalizing death as well. You know, I [00:10:25] think, and, and actually this is something I think Catherine Manix talks about that actually, um, death is a natural. Process. And you know, that that thing of like, she talks about how the, your body knows how to die.
[00:10:37] Like, I think it's so, you know, when you, I think she talks about it in that TED talk that we've, that we've talked about before, but it's, um, yeah, there's a, like a medicalization of death that happens as well and it's almost kind of an othering of death, [00:10:50] whereas, you know, death, whether it's, you know, a natural death at the end of life or you know, a terminal illness or some other condition, it's, there is also something natural.
[00:10:59] Uh, about death that I think has, has got a bit lost maybe. Yeah, and I think, certainly I'm thinking back to my nana, one of 14, you know, somebody died. It was very much in the home. Curtains were short. It was, it was kind of kept [00:11:15] within the home. So there were, there was a very much about the reality, although I suppose the other side of it was because it was so normalized then potentially there wasn't that other.
[00:11:26] Understanding around the impact, you know, and the, the kind of, the conversations around it was almost like it happens. Let's kind of move on. So I suppose the, that side of it as well, that, that maybes is for the better, [00:11:40] that we've changed around that maybes, we pick that up again later when we talk about kind of grief and, and that process.
[00:11:47] So. Let's talk about death and dying, the theme of Death Awareness week. Um, so given what you've said then, given me that we sort of thinking about that we're outsourcing, we're maybe it's not using a language that deals with the realities. Why do you think it is so important that we add more [00:12:05] open conversations around death and dying?
[00:12:07] Again, I think there's loads of benefits to opening up this conversation, but. I suppose the first thing that comes to mind is, um, is just simply that this is the one thing guaranteed to happen to everybody. You know, we're all gonna die someday. The people around us are going to die. The people we love are going to die.
[00:12:29] Um, you [00:12:30] know, there's that famous quote, I think it's Benjamin Franklin. The, the only two things certain in life are death and taxes. I've probably got that slightly wrong. It works, but it's very true and it's as true today as it was back in, you know, 1790 thing, or you know, whenever it was that he said that.
[00:12:46] You know, and I, I really do think, I mean, I would say this because I'm a therapist, but I really do think talking. Pretty much always helps, [00:12:55] you know, talking about about death can make it easier to accept when it happens, whether that's facing your own mortality or you know that of those around you. You know, I've, I've actually worked with people, I've supported people with death anxiety, which is a very real condition and actually can be really quite a debilitating.
[00:13:16] Condition. And I think what I've found from that work [00:13:20] is that actually there's, there's an enormous power in saying out loud that I'm, you know, that I'm afraid of dying and getting very specific about what it is about death that scares you or, or causes you anxiety or like generates that fear. And I think what I've seen through that though, through, through getting people to actually connect with it and explore it, is that it, it can kind of lessen [00:13:45] the impact, it can lessen the anxiety.
[00:13:47] So it's not so debilitating. It's not so overwhelming, you know? I do, I really do think that talking helps and that, you know, and actually that extends to any sort of anxiety or difficulty or, you know, anything that you're facing. Talking about it can kind of lessen its hold or its power over you, I think.
[00:14:07] Yeah. It goes back to what you were saying earlier, doesn't it? [00:14:10] It's, you know, because it's an unknown, you know, one of the things is to grip tightly and think not talking about it is easier than talking about it. And, and that kind of in some way, shape or form controls the, the kind of experience. Um, but yeah.
[00:14:26] It's interesting what you said about that death anxiety, and I imagine it is. Something that quite a lot of people experience in, in varying [00:14:35] degrees. Yeah, I think it is. You know, and I, and I'm no different. It's not like I'm sitting here going, oh yeah, death's cool. Bring it on. You know, obviously I'm, you know, the thought of people I love dying causes me anxiety.
[00:14:45] Of course it does. You know, that it, it's loss, you know, it's, any, any loss is really, um, really difficult and can have all kinds of ramifications. But I think they def, you know, death anxiety is kind of a recognized condition. [00:15:00] As I say, can, can be, you know, there's degrees of it, but you know, there's definitely people who really, who really struggle with it.
[00:15:05] And it can lead then to all kinds of other complications like, you know, insomnia or digestive problems or you know, that sort of chronic, when something's really chronic, it can have such a, such a knock on impact. And, and, you know, I think this is why it is so important. We have conversations like this that, you know, in, in public that people can, can [00:15:25] hear and it can just, I suppose it's about normalizing, you know, I think, I think normalizing is really important.
[00:15:30] I think as a therapist, a lot of the work I do is around. Helping people to realize that what they're experiencing is normal and that other people experience this as well. Yeah, because I think that, that what people lack is, is that language, that ability to communicate, that ability to, um, have some sort of [00:15:50] framework around conversations.
[00:15:52] Because the less we talk about it, the less we, we have that, don't we? And, and it is good to start seeing this shift. And I suppose the opposite side of it. I'm, I'm quite a fan of this. ICS and, and quite a fan of their philosophies around keeping death by your side. And that actually as well as normalizing it.
[00:16:09] And then all the things that we're talking about there of reducing some of the fear and anxiety, it [00:16:15] can actually impact on the way that you live your life. If we bring death into our lives, can't we? Can't it, you know, like keeping it there by our side can impact on the choices that we make and the way that we live our lives.
[00:16:28] Well, you've got any thoughts around that or whether I've gone a bit off on a tangent there. Well, I was thinking I don't know anything about the stoics. Don't ask me about them. But no, I, I see the point you're making and [00:16:40] I, you know what, and I think it really resonates with me because I have lived with grief for a really long time.
[00:16:45] So I have unfortunately suffered many bereavements kind of across my life, starting when I was quite young. And I've kind of got to a point now where. I think of it as making friends with grief. So, you know, and kind of, you know, again, kind of not going, oh yeah, you know, [00:17:05] grief ISS cool, you know, it's great.
[00:17:06] It feels good, you know, obviously it doesn't, um, a lot of the time feel good, but it's about integrating. So, you know, I think for, for a long time, kind of when I was younger, I felt quite dominated by my grief and I felt, um, kind of defined by it. That as I've got older and done a lot of work and had a lot of therapy has kind of shifted.
[00:17:29] So [00:17:30] now it's kind of like, okay, grief, you're here. You're gonna be by my side. So. Let's be pals, you know, and just really like integrating that grief into my identity and into my sense of self. So it doesn't dominate, but it's, it's there. And it's just one aspect of all these other aspects of who I am that make me.
[00:17:51] A person. And I think, I really wish I could kind of [00:17:55] explain to people exactly how I've done that. I'm not quite sure how I've done that. You know, because I say this to people at the Grief Cafe and they're kind of like, all right, so, you know, what did you do and what were the steps and how have you got there?
[00:18:05] And it's, it's really hard to say, but that's, that's how I feel about my grief now that it is, it is always gonna be there and it's always gonna be part of me, but I've. I've made it my own, you know? Yeah. Um, and I wanna come back to a couple of [00:18:20] things that you've said there. If we just pick up though for a moment.
[00:18:22] You mentioned the grief cafes again, and maybe that's part of opening up this conversation. And I've certainly seen them, or certainly the death cafe. There's death cafes and grief cafes. If I'm, I'm right in thinking, and we have death cafes. Locally. Now, if they've come up north, that means they're everywhere else.
[00:18:39] So if anybody's listening, you know, because we didn't get a McDonald's till about 2015, [00:18:45] so you, you know, and we've got these nes, um. And that to me seems to be such an important part of normalizing conversations and obviously you do some work, uh, within them and that peer support. Can you tell us a little bit about the death cafes, the grief cafes, um, and explain what they're all about.
[00:19:05] Yes. And thank you for asking. 'cause I love talking about this 'cause I'm, these are [00:19:10] spaces I love being in and I'm super passionate about. So, um, so Death Cafe, I think let's, let's just start with kind of a definition. 'cause a lot of people might not have heard of this, but a Death Cafe is basically just a space where people who are usually strangers gather together, you know, to have a tea or coffee, have a bit of cake or, you know.
[00:19:32] A pastry or something sweet. And to [00:19:35] talk about death and dying, kind of all aspects of death and dying. Um, so Death Cafe is basically a, a concept that's kind of been franchised. So you will find death cafes all over the world. They have them in, you know, pretty much every country you can think of. Um, they're free to attend.
[00:19:54] They're usually just run by volunteers and, you know, you should have the same experience. [00:20:00] Any death cafe you attend anywhere in the world. 'cause they are always run the same, kind of under the same guidelines. The conversations we have at Death Cafe are just really wide ranging. It, you know, it can get kind of quite existential.
[00:20:15] So, you know, talking about. Actually, what is the meaning of life? What does it mean to be here? What does it mean that we die? Is there an afterlife? [00:20:25] Um, is there a soul, you know, um, spiritual matters, you know, the role of faith and religion and spirituality, end of life planning. Um, you know, we sometimes go really off peace and start talking about, you know, ghosts and spirits and what do we think those are, and, you know, how does that relate to whether there's a soul or enough, you know, really, really, really broad ranging.
[00:20:47] Discussions, which I love. I've always been drawn to [00:20:50] those kind of weird and wonderful chats. So yeah, if that appeals to anybody, definitely go to death cafe.com and you know, type in your postcode and see if there's one near you. Grief Cafe. So it's similar in the sense that it's a group of people who are often strangers.
[00:21:09] It's a group led discussion. There's no agenda, there's no [00:21:15] prompts or talking points offered. It's just a group led conversation and people can bring, you know, again, like all aspects of their grief and loss and how they're feeling. And Grief Cafe also, I should say, I know obviously we're talking about death and dying today, but um, our grief cafes are open to anyone experiencing any kind of grief, so it doesn't always have to be linked specifically to a [00:21:40] bereavement.
[00:21:40] It could be anything. So, you know, redundancy, a medical diagnosis, you know, empty nesters, um, kind of any sort of, any sort of loss of identity that might happen in life. Um, people moving through different life stages. You know, there's, we get lots and lots of different people bringing lots of different things.
[00:22:00] And I think what I've found from hosting these, [00:22:05] these spaces is that actually. I think it's a myth that people don't want to talk about death. I think actually what we see, 'cause these, you know, these events we hold are really well attended. We get 20, 25 people at these events and that, and probably we could have more.
[00:22:22] That's just a capacity, you know, that just limited by the capacity of the venue. If you give people a space and an opportunity to talk [00:22:30] about these topics, they do. They, they keep coming back and they, they do it again and again. So I, I don't actually believe that people don't want to talk. I think it's more that, you know, as you referenced earlier, it's like people don't have the language, they don't have the language, they don't have the confidence.
[00:22:50] They're worried about upsetting people or making people feel uncomfortable. But when you give people a [00:22:55] space and go, you can bring that here. They do. I love that. Um, I love around the Death Cafe. Uh, what I thought was interesting about the Death Cafe model, I love that it's like a McDonald's model, and I feel like as a vegetarian, I've referenced McDonald's way too many times in this conversation.
[00:23:11] Oh, the fast food outlets are available. Yeah. And actually. Somebody who really doesn't believe in processed foods either anyway, [00:23:20] but that DEF Cafe model, actually the first one was in the UK, wasn't it? Which I think is just quite interesting in itself. My sort of first thoughts were. Is this an American thing?
[00:23:31] Is this kind of come over and, and kind of being all a bit more touchy feely, but I love that you know that, that it is in the UK and that it is widely, um, established. What I love there about what you've said as well is that it's an [00:23:45] opportunity to explore different perspectives and I think we can learn so much, can't we?
[00:23:51] You know about cultural differences, religious faith, what that does to our experience and actually see that there's many ways to approach like death and dying and, and, and belief in the afterlife, or that you go down the spirits and the ghost. I think that what an amazing [00:24:10] melting pop for particularly for somebody who maybe doesn't have their own framework.
[00:24:14] To hear those differences. I dunno whether you've got anything to add to that around those kind of cultural perspectives. Yeah, ab absolutely. I'm just sitting here nodding vociferously at everything you're saying. Yeah, I think, um, I think that's my experience of attending the Death Cafe particularly is those different perspectives.
[00:24:33] And, um, actually [00:24:35] the area of London I live in our, our borough is one of. The most culturally, ethnically diverse places in England. So we get people from, you know, every different background, every ethnicity. There's so much cultural difference. We get a really diverse, um, range of genders as well. Ages. So you get, you know, really actually really young people.
[00:24:58] We get, you know, people at [00:25:00] uni, like uni students come to the death cafe and then we get, you know, people who were in their eighties and who were starting to think about their own mortality. And you know, even just on that level of. You've got both ends of the spectrum, you know, the sort of the life spectrum there.
[00:25:15] It's just, it's really beautiful and it's actually often very moving to see people from all these different backgrounds and walks of life making those [00:25:25] connections and. And it's so funny because people, when I mention the Death Cafe to people, you know, sometimes I get looked at like I'm a bit odd, you know, like, oh, you want to go and, you know, spend three hours of your weekend talking about death to strangers.
[00:25:39] What's wrong with you? You know? Um, but actually. I always come out of these events feeling really alive, really uplifted, really [00:25:50] inspired. There's something so life affirming about having these conversations and connecting with all these different people. You are historic, Lucy, you just didn't know it.
[00:26:00] Yeah, right. I'm gonna Google that as soon as we get off this chill. But yeah, it is, isn't it? Because the big. Questions are life affirming and, and I think you said it earlier, you know, death is [00:26:15] the, the singular. Human experience that we all share in common. It's, it's like that commonality. So to spend some time in a safe space exploring it, not with a blueprint, but with perspectives, because that's all we have.
[00:26:34] That goes back to what you said as well, that unknown last frontier, but. Let's explore it and [00:26:40] unpick it and, and see what that looks like. I think there's a Festival of Death. I'm sure I read somewhere along the line there was a Festival of Death as well, and I'm sure I remember reading that the lady who set that up was because she, she said festivals are lovely things.
[00:26:56] Like we, we, we use the word festival and we see it as a space that's joyful and we can come together and sort of pairing it with death is, is [00:27:05] she was trying to sort of say like, we can come together and still have a, an uplifting experience. Just as you've said, was talking about difficult conversations.
[00:27:16] So, you know, it's wonderful to hear about that. It's wonderful to hear that they're so accessible and available up and down the country. Yeah. And, and I, I think I said that, that they're free, but just to make that point, they are, they are free to [00:27:30] attend. So, you know, there's, and you can go along and we always say to people who are coming for the first time, there's no onus on you to speak, you know, you can just kind of sit and take it in and, you know, just kind of contribute if you feel you want to, but there's no expectations on you to participate or not participate in any particular way.
[00:27:48] When you go to a death cafe, I know I was, is in the library. So I think they're kind of commonplace is to host them. Yeah. [00:27:55] We host a lot of events in libraries. Yeah, yeah. Which again, breaks down that barrier, doesn't it? It's not about going and spending, having to go and buy a expensive coffee to be part of it or, you know, so, and I think very central to what we're talking about here, isn't it?
[00:28:08] Opportunities to open up the conversations, which can be very difficult to have. Um, so, you know, it's great to see those spaces and, and kind of moving on to the grief cafe then. I thought it was really [00:28:20] interesting there that you. Said that the grief cafes are not just about that type of loss, but they're, they're any loss, which I didn't realize.
[00:28:28] I didn't realize that's what the grief cafes were. Um, and that people feel grief for many reasons, not just at the loss of a loved one. Um. So, yeah. I mean, do you, do you go along to the Grief cafes as well? Are they kind of part of what you do? Yes. [00:28:45] Yeah. Yeah. I, I help out a lot with, um, hosting the Grief cafes and, you know, and it really helps me process my grief as well.
[00:28:52] There's something incredibly humbling actually about somebody trusting you with their grief. Somebody bringing, you know, that really deep, intimate experience and sharing it with you and with a group that's actually, um, you know, I don't take that lightly. [00:29:10] That's, that's really a very special thing when people do that, you know, and, and also I think people perhaps have a, a sense that these grief cafes might be really depressing places where we just.
[00:29:20] Sit around and cry and give each other tissues. And you know, of course that happens. But actually, you know, again, they're quite life affirming because I think often in talking about death, you know, you can't talk about death [00:29:35] without talking about life. So the, the two, you know, the two go hand in hand and, um.
[00:29:41] And, you know, there's actually a lot of laughter at the grief cafe. You know, you, you have to, you have to kind of keep a sense of humor in life, you know, when you're facing adversity and. Um, you know, particularly if you find yourself in my group, we tend to to, to have a bit of a giggle, a bit of a laugh to try and bring a bit of [00:30:00] levity.
[00:30:00] You know, I think that naturally happens, doesn't it, in, um, your kind of funerals and, and, and the rituals afterwards. Often when you go to few other, the wake afterwards, it can often be. As difficult as it is, but, you know, remembering those wonderful aspects and, and celebrating somebody's life, um, and being able to talk freely.
[00:30:23] That's a kind of [00:30:25] similar space in my, maybe, maybe I'm kind of, you know, putting those into little boxes that don't need to be. But, but for me it is that, that opportunity and it feels like, well, that's what the grief cafes are allowing people to do. Yeah, I'd agree with that actually. I think funerals are very important, you know, however you choose to, you know, to, to have that ceremony, you know, whether it's, you know, just a, kind of a short service at [00:30:50] the creme or you know, a kind of, I, I was raised Catholic, so I've been to a lot of Catholic funerals, like full Requiem.
[00:30:57] With, um, you know, lots of organ music and incense and all of that. And actually I'm, I'm used to it and that's what I know. And I think, I think it's really beautiful. I take a lot of comfort from that actually. But I think funerals are really important. Any sort of funeral, you know, funeral rights for, for helping people process their [00:31:15] grief and actually really connecting.
[00:31:17] With the loss and what has been lost and, and for supporting each other. So yeah, I, I do think, um, I think there's a lot of similarities actually between, between the grief cafe and that sort of peer support space and, and what can happen at funeral, that idea of rituals and funerals. What I'm sort of seeing is I think we're getting.
[00:31:38] Better at, at [00:31:40] recognizing they can be different and getting better at recognizing individualized approaches to, to funerals and as you say, the ion mass, the, the Catholic, um, mass. I've been to, to lots of those and they are a beautiful experience. But, but likewise, I've been to very simple funerals and I think that ritual is really important.
[00:32:00] And actually, I watched a Grayson Perry documentary. About [00:32:05] rituals On one of the episodes, um, he was organizing a living funeral with a guy with a terminal diagnosis. And honestly, I watched that episode several times. I thought it was one of the most beautiful thing and really is not something that I'd.
[00:32:19] Ever thought about before and it was, it was just wonderful. Do you have any of you on living funerals again? Maybe I'm going off on a tangent. Not at all. Because just as you started talking there, [00:32:30] that's what came to my mind is, uh, is, is living funerals. They're becoming more and more common, I think. And yeah, I've, I've heard such lovely stories about these.
[00:32:39] There was a piece, the Guardian did a bit of a series on this, it was a few years back now, and there was a woman who. Who was terminally ill, I think she had a form of cancer and she knew that the end was, was coming. So she had a living funeral, planned it all, herself obviously [00:32:55] attended, and she had her coffin there and she had kind of sharpie pens and people decorated her coffin and drew pictures and signed their name.
[00:33:04] And I just thought, wow, what a, what a brilliant way of kind of. Accepting death. So beautiful. You know, and that comes back to what we said at the, the, the beginning, isn't it? And that anxiety and that fear, like it is [00:33:20] around that acceptance, isn't it? I think that is the absolute word. And it's interesting actually.
[00:33:26] I saw, um, just the other day, um, a, a local funeral company who, um, had led on a funeral where it was a lady, um. But after she had died, her coffin was made of cardboard and exactly the same thing. There was a big pot of Sharpie [00:33:45] pens and people came and wrote their messages. But how beautiful for that lady that she got to see them, the other lady, you know, in, in that kind of living funeral.
[00:33:53] So again, I think there's, there's something there. If we can open up the conversation, we can have those conversations around what the end looks like, can't we? And around that. Individualized approach and, and I suppose, how [00:34:10] important is it to. Open up that conversation to think about our own depth, to think about the death of our loved ones, our wishes, planning legacy.
[00:34:19] How important do you think that is? I honestly, uh, think it's vital. I think it's absolutely essential if you, if you can bring yourself to do it, and you can bring yourself to open up that conversation and have your wishes heard. You know, I, I really think being [00:34:35] clear about your end of life wishes and funeral wishes.
[00:34:40] Um, it's like a gift that you are giving to the people that you're gonna leave behind. And, and this is something I'm really, really passionate about. I've done it, mine is, mine is planned. I've got a Google document with all, you know, with everything on my family, know where it is. So it just takes all of the guesswork and all of the ambiguity and all of the.[00:35:00]
[00:35:00] Anxiety actually out of end of life and funeral planning. You know, obviously having to deal with grief is incredibly difficult and when you know you are having to organize a funeral or think about someone's end of life and plan for that while you are navigating your own grief and loss and pain and confusion, if you can just take that one kind of aspect away.
[00:35:23] From it for the [00:35:25] people who are gonna leave behind. I think it really is worth doing. It's really worth just trying to have that conversation. And you know, you don't have to formalize it, you don't have to go the legal route. Um, you can, and I think that can make it less complicated, but you know, you can equally just.
[00:35:42] Write it down and put it in an envelope and put it in a draw and let somebody know where it is. You know, you don't have to, it doesn't have to be a really big [00:35:50] formal, kind of official thing, just as long as you've written it down so it's clear for people. I think that's, that's really all, all you need to do and you know, if you can open up the conversation and allow, you know, your loved ones to ask questions and clarify and let them know.
[00:36:07] You know, give them an opportunity to say, actually I'm comfortable with that. That seems really nice. And yeah, I dunno, I might find that quite difficult, you know, or [00:36:15] it really is just important, I think. Yeah, I, I opened up the conversation with my daughters and I think my route in was through music and songs.
[00:36:26] And I found that a really safe way to go into that conversation. You know, to talk, I mean, my playlist did get outta control. I'm not gonna lie to the point where my daughter, when I was saying Right, and my next song where she was going, mom, like, [00:36:40] but it allowed me to have what is a difficult conversation and make it fun.
[00:36:47] Yes. Make it fun. Make it a collaboration. Absolutely. And I think. I think you've, um, you've hit the nail on the head actually, because with all of these conversations, whether it's a general conversation about death or whether you want to address an anxiety or you wanna talk about your end of life wishes, these difficult conversations, it's [00:37:05] like find your own way in to it.
[00:37:07] So it could be, as you've said, through music, it could be. There's a storyline on TV on East Enders, or you've watched, you've been to the cinema to see a film together. You know, something, something like Hamlet, you know, maybe is, we see in the news at the moment. You know, there's a lot of, I'm seeing a lot of memes and stuff on Instagram around grief off the back of Hamlet.
[00:37:26] It's great actually. But you know, find your own way [00:37:30] in to it. That feels almost natural and then it's not such a big conversation. Yeah, no, you're so right. 'cause I remember another similar conversation. I can't remember what the film. Was called something to do what I did in the summer holidays. He's got the Scottish actor and he goes off in the sea and, and goes off on a boat.
[00:37:49] Can't help you. I'm sorry. I led to a very interesting [00:37:55] conversation after that one. But yeah, it's about finding, um, that route in, isn't it? Um. Ashley, as I as you were talking now, I was thinking my nana, um, she had a conversation with me. She was in her in her nineties and she had said to me that she would like to be cremated, which in her family history wasn't a thing.
[00:38:19] It was [00:38:20] burial. And she gave me that piece of information. And after she died, I remembered talking to my dad and saying. Nana had had a really long conversation with me about this, and he had had no idea. And, and actually we were able to fulfill her wishes and, and that was really important. Um, and I, I was really honored that she'd have that conversation, Lee, in retrospect, that I, you know, owned that piece of [00:38:45] information.
[00:38:46] So, yeah. Anywhere in, um, I absolutely agree with you. Can we come back to grief? I think there's the importance of opening up the conversation around death and dying for, for every single reason we've talked about, um, is so important. I think also how we approach grief, whether that's ourselves or the way that we are supported.
[00:39:09] If we can [00:39:10] just think about being in the supporting cast, I'm thinking maybe he's in the workplace, um, or in a friendship capacity when somebody's grieving, I think. We can worry about saying the wrong sort of things. I think there's very little training goes on in the workplace beyond policies that kind of give dates around leave of absence.
[00:39:33] There's how can [00:39:35] we get better at supporting other people, whether that's at, at work or, or in our personal lives. I think just firstly on the sort of training and development point, there are, uh, a couple of charities I always recommend, um, to people. So Cruise Bereavement Care, who some people might be familiar with.
[00:39:52] They've got great resources and you know, all mostly free resources on their website. Things like resources for managers [00:40:00] particularly. So if somebody in your team has, um, has suffered a bereavement and you know, easing them back into work and what may help them, um, and particularly in school settings, child bereavement UK are incredible.
[00:40:14] I dunno if you've come across them, but they again, offer lots of training. They've got loads of free resources, loads of stuff about managing children's grief and how to [00:40:25] approach conversations with children and make sure they're supported. So there are, there are charities out there, there are resources out there.
[00:40:33] Just, you know, there are Google away. That's a really good place to start. But I think more generally, I think you are right. I think people often don't know what to say to someone who's been bereaved. So what often happens is they end up saying nothing. Yeah. You know, and [00:40:50] that's, that's a sad state of affairs because it leaves the bereaved person feeling bad.
[00:40:54] It leaves the person who is remaining silent feeling bad, you know, nobody feels good about that. So I always advise people say something. Yeah, don't just, don't just go silent. Don't ghost them. Don't avoid them. Say something, even if the thing you say is, I'm really [00:41:15] sorry. I dunno what to say. You know, I think just keep it really simple.
[00:41:21] You don't have to say anything clever or profound, you know, just, just be honest, be honest, be genuine. Um, you know, just something really, really simple like. I'm so sorry to hear what happened and I just wanted to let you know. I'm thinking of you, you know, just really super simple. [00:41:40] Avoid cliches, please, you know, this is in the category for me of passed away and went to sleep, and all of that.
[00:41:46] Like, please don't say things like, oh, at least they didn't suffer, or, you know, they're in a better place now. You know, like the, these cliches are cold. Comfort to somebody who is. Really in the raw stages of grief. And often, you know, people, people come back to work [00:42:05] too early because, you know, workplace policies sort of dictate that you get a certain amount of time off and then, you know, often people are returning to work really before they're ready.
[00:42:14] So I think it is really important that we make that transition for people is just as easy as it can be. You know, two things in there, Lucy. The first one is around talking to children. We often protect children, don't we, in [00:42:30] conversations about death. But research suggests as far as I'm aware, that they can understand death earlier than we think.
[00:42:37] How do we approach conversation with children? What's your thoughts about this? Yeah. Um, again, I'm so glad you've raised this 'cause it's something I am really, really passionate about. I, I did suffer a pretty significant bereavement when I was. 16, although I probably didn't like to think I was a child at the time, I was very much a child, [00:42:55] you know, so I kind of know what happens when this isn't handled properly and kind of goes a bit awry.
[00:43:02] I think, as you say, children are able to grasp the concept of death far younger than you would assume. So, um, you know, some re from research that's been done, children from the age of around five. Are able to grasp the concept that someone has died and that [00:43:20] means that we won't see them again. They are gone.
[00:43:23] We won't see them, we won't speak to them. You know, children are already have, will already have an awareness of this. And obviously children are like sponges, aren't they? They're picking things up from the media, from tv, from conversations. They overhear all of this stuff, but you know, they're, they're too young to kind of fully understand it.
[00:43:40] So. I think, I think it's like anything. And you know, I'm [00:43:45] sure your listeners will know better than I do 'cause they, you know, they work in these settings and they're working with children, but. I think, um, work with their curiosity is what I would say. You know, obviously children are naturally curious. You ask them what they think, ask them what they think it means When somebody dies, ask them what they think happens.
[00:44:05] It doesn't, again, it doesn't have to be a big, serious sit down conversation. You know, you can be doing this [00:44:10] while playing with them or on a walk with them or in the car with them. You know, just again, like normalizing that conversation. And I think what's really important is not to shut them down. So if they ask a question that might make you feel uncomfortable, it's really important to try and not shut that down.
[00:44:28] Um, you know, to, 'cause then they'll learn that, oh, actually this is something that I'm not supposed to talk about. Then, you know, [00:44:35] that obviously can have a knock on effect into adulthood and how they manage their curiosity firstly, but like how they manage their feelings and it can create a lot of anxiety, which you know, then obviously can have ramifications later.
[00:44:48] So I think work with their curiosity would be my. Would be my kind of advice on that. Yeah, and I think you've raised an important point there is the ramifications or the impact that not [00:45:00] talking about it can go on to have for that child that they can then take into their adulthood, which I imagine could sit, you know, behind many problems and many manifestations as an adult.
[00:45:15] Would that be fair to say? Absolutely. You know, I, um, I, I don't work with children, so I'm not trained as a, a child psychotherapist, but, um, [00:45:25] actually I would say the majority of the time in psychodynamic therapy, I'm working with the child inside the adult. We're, you know, we're doing processing of childhood things, you know, not, it doesn't even have to be like really big traumatic things.
[00:45:39] It's like there are lots of kind of things which are traumatic to a child that as an adult you would look back on and go, well, actually that was just, you know, I, I talk about the [00:45:50] dressing gown on the back of the door. You know, that, that kind of thing of like, something that's scary to a child as an adult actually is really rational, but.
[00:45:58] But the experience of that is still inside you. You know, we all have our inner child who's with us all the time, so I think I, I suppose as a therapist working with adults, I kind of get to see where these things have gone awry in childhood. You know, I [00:46:15] don't wanna say wrong, because it's not helpful to label things as right and wrong, you know, and get into binaries, but definitely where things have been.
[00:46:23] Repressed, let's say, um, and internalized that can just, I mean, I couldn't even name them all, but that, that can lead to all manner of problems. You know, lots of, lots of problems with anxiety. Again, things like sleep disturbances, [00:46:40] insomnia, you know, um, and lot, lots of other sort of, and actually physical health problems as well.
[00:46:46] You know, mental health problems can often become psychosomatic if they go on for too long. So, yeah, lots, lots of ramifications. I think I was thinking of Gbo Mattey there, GBO Mattey, honestly. Me too. Um, I was thinking about, he distinguishes just me between Big T trauma and little [00:47:05] T trauma, but little T trauma, the, the dressing going on the back of the door that's scary in a child's experience is traumatic.
[00:47:15] And yeah, just those layers and, and, and how that. Can manifest in the body, manifest in physical illnesses, as well as those kind of mental health illnesses. Lucy, we need to have another conversation, don't we? About [00:47:30] and dream work. I feel like there's a second. There's a second episode in this. I'm up for it.
[00:47:36] Absolutely. Julie, I, yeah, I could talk about, I could talk about grief all day, but I could also talk about dreams all day as well. There's one more question I really wanna ask. Well, actually there's two. Religion I think can be super helpful when people have a faith it can help with, with a bit of a framework to grief.
[00:47:52] You mentioned there [00:47:55] about we can often go back to work too early. We, we put a timeline around it. I know there are various models. That can be helpful in helping people understand what does the process look like. Um, can you maybe tell us, I think probably the most famous is the stages of grief, um, but I know there are other models as well.
[00:48:17] Can you, can you kind of talk us through them a little [00:48:20] bit? Yeah, absolutely. So the stages of grief model, I think you're referring to is the Elizabeth Kler Ross. The five stages. So the stages being, I'm gonna, I always get these in the wrong order, but I think it's denial, uh, bargaining, anger. Depression and acceptance.
[00:48:40] So, um, this, this has got slightly skewed [00:48:45] actually. So Elizabeth Kubler Ross was working actually with terminally ill people. So she was working with people who were end of life. She did a lot of work in hospice. She was a wonderful woman actually. Like definitely going. Google her. Um, 'cause she's, she's a fascinating woman in her own right, but she's done a lot of great work.
[00:49:04] So she was working with people actually, who were end of life. And those stages are based on people who [00:49:10] are accepting their own mortality. So it wasn't actually based on people who were grieving. And I don't, I'm not quite clear what sort of happened and where this got adopted, but I, I, I think probably what happened is that.
[00:49:24] Somebody came along and saw this and went, oh this, this could probably work for grief as well. And it then sort of got adopted into like pop psychology [00:49:35] and I think people then went, oh great, we've now got a map for grief. We've now got what looks like a really nice, neat, kind of linear process for managing grief, and we all know how it's gonna go.
[00:49:44] Woo-hoo. You know? But of course, as anyone that's dealt with grief or been bereaved will tell you it's not linear. There is no map. We're all on our own journey with it. I think the stages of grief, I think they're helpful in that. If you think of [00:50:00] them more as emotions or emotional states you might go through when you're grieving, I think it can work for that.
[00:50:06] But in terms of there being like clearly defined stages, I don't, I don't feel it works very well. And also I should say, I always feel like I have to stick up for Elizabeth Cooper Ross, because I think people kind of poo poo poo her now. But actually they were never meant to be linear stages that were worked through.
[00:50:24] You know, [00:50:25] kind of a to A to Z, it's, it was always meant to be. They would overlap. They would conflict, you know, you would move back and forth. You might skip some altogether. It was never designed to be linear. So, just, just a little caveat with that one. In terms of models that I do think, um, are valuable, there's one, I dunno if you're familiar with this, but there's one called the dual process model.
[00:50:48] Of bereavement. [00:50:50] So this was developed by Margaret Strober and Hank Schu in kind of the mid nineties, I think. And it's perhaps we can put a link to this in the show notes, actually. 'cause it's, there's a, there's a really helpful diagram that goes alongside this, and I probably won't do it justice, but I'll, I'll do my best.
[00:51:06] So it's the diagram where on the one side you have loss oriented behaviors, and on the other side you have. [00:51:15] Restoration behaviors. So, you know, your loss oriented behaviors are obviously gonna be the ones associated with the grieving process. So, you know, thinking about the person that's died, talking about them ruminating, you know, kind of running through the what ifs and regrets and, oh, I should have, you know, should have, would've could as you know, all of that sort of really unhelpful thought patterns that you get into.
[00:51:35] And then on the other side, your restoration behaviors are. You know, kind of [00:51:40] finding new tradi, you know, finding new traditions, finding a new way of being, finding a new identity, um, but also like really mundane everyday things like basic self-care going to work. And I, this is why I think dual process model is a really helpful one.
[00:51:57] For the workplace, because I think in the workplace you're gonna see a lot of these restoration kind of linked behaviors. And, [00:52:05] um, the point of this, uh, of this process is it, it's not that you move over from the loss oriented behaviors to the restoration behaviors. The point is you oscillate. Between them.
[00:52:16] So you are moving between the two states, giving both kind of the time and respect that they need. And over time, obviously, you know, the idea is that you would move over and you would see more of the restoration kind of [00:52:30] behaviors, but not a wholesale move. So you're not leaving all of the loss oriented behaviors behind.
[00:52:35] There's still gonna be times where you need to. Give your grief space and connect with your grief. And this is something I always ask people, you know, particularly at, um, at Grief Cafe, is kind of, are you tending to your grief? You know, do you have that time and space where you can just sit and think about them or connect with [00:52:55] yourself or have a bit of a cry or actually have a scream, you know, get the, get the anger out, get the frustration out.
[00:53:00] You know, it's like, it's really, really important that. Grief, grief. Tending is a bit of a kind of term that I hear a lot at the moment, like it's a new thing and I'm like, no, actually this is just something that people have been doing for millennia, actually. You know? Do you know what I thought then when you were talking about that dual process?
[00:53:17] I love it, and, and we absolutely will. [00:53:20] She link, it normalizes the fact that those lost behaviors and grief continues, and that, that that oscillation will happen. And I think that's lovely. I think that gives people a lot of permission to know that it's okay. For that, you know, it isn't that linear. I'm not finished grieving now.
[00:53:42] Um, but I also thought that, [00:53:45] that you kind of answered your own question from earlier on. You said you're not quite sure how you integrated it into your experience of yourself, but almost that's the answer, isn't it? You, you recognized that that is very much part of you and that loss needs and that grief.
[00:54:02] And there are times when I'm sure that you need to explore that and, and lean into that. But those tending behaviors, those grief tending behavior, is that [00:54:10] the right term? Grief tending? Yes. Yes. I like that. Have become a big part of your life as well. So I feel like it kind of answers that question, doesn't it?
[00:54:19] Of. Where you've got to, how you've got to, does it? Or am I, yeah. I'm kind of reviewing a lot of what I've talked about today, sort of in an abstract way, and I'm thinking, no, actually that is what you've, you know, in talking, you know, right back at the beginning of this, we, we were talking about why is [00:54:35] talking so important and, and I think that is, um, for me, not repressing my grief, not pushing it down.
[00:54:43] Not keeping it to myself, actually seeking out these spaces, like, you know, 'cause Grief Cafe and Death Cafe. I started attending, you know, as a, as a delegate. You know, I was just there as somebody that wanted to use that space. And because I was going regularly, I, you know, I started [00:55:00] then, um, volunteering and, and working there, but seeking out those spaces where it's okay to bring your grief.
[00:55:06] That's, that's really important. Lucy, I could touch you all here. I feel like, um, since we've come full circle, that's a really good place to place to I know how love, how lovely and neat. Unlike grief, it's like we planned it, which we didn't. I know we actually did. [00:55:25] Lucy, we asked the same question of all of our guests.
[00:55:27] Just to finish on, there's no rules over how you answer this one, but if there was one kind thing you could suggest that our listeners could do for themselves today. What would it be? I think it's, I dunno quite how to answer that. I think it's something about compassion. So, you know, there's, there's a lot of, oh, be kind to yourself and be, you know, be kind to others and.
[00:55:48] You know, [00:55:50] kindness is, um, I struggle a little bit with the concept of just being kind. 'cause it's quite, it's quite hard actually to be kind all the time. But actually what I, what I try to be guided by in everything I do is compassion. So just having that compassion for yourself. And understanding, you know, why you are feeling a certain way or why you're behaving a certain way.
[00:56:14] Just [00:56:15] really trying to connect with yourself and understand that. And that I think can kind of breed compassion and it starts with the self and then you'll have compassion naturally then for others 'cause you'll understand it a bit more. Totally agree. Totally agree. Thank you, Lucy. I think conversations like this aren't.
[00:56:34] Always gonna be easy. Um, I think that's probably one of the easiest conversations I've [00:56:40] ever had about death, dying, and grief. So thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your expertise, your personal stories, and we'll definitely share some of those links that you've talked about. 'cause I think they could be really, really helpful for, for many people listening.
[00:56:53] Thank you so much, Lucy. Thank you so much, Julie. I've really enjoyed this. I could carry on all day, as you said. And you know, I suppose my hope is just that. Somebody might listen to this and it might prompt them [00:57:05] to have some of these conversations that we've, that we've talked about today. And you could even use this as the way in, you know, you could say, oh, you know, if you, did you listen to that still Human podcast about death?
[00:57:16] You know, oh, you know, I listened to it and, you know, and that this could be your way in people. So, you know. Perfect. Thank you, Lacey. Thank you, Julie.