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Podcast fans from all around - come and nerd out about podcasts and discover new shows along the way!
On Podcast Book Club - a different group of podcast industry pros sit down each week to pour over an episode of a show they admire.
We're a group of podcasting professionals who spend every day scripting, producing, engineering, and promoting podcasts. And in our free time? We’re podcast fans just like you. We love to listen to even more podcasts and figure out what makes the best podcasts so good.
So tune in and join the club - listen to podcast reviews of some of our favorite gems. We’ll give feedback on podcast content but also sound design, production, scripting, storytelling, and more.
Want even more? Catch Podcast Book Club on Twitter: twitter.com/podbookclub
Podcast Book Club is produced by Alex Bennett, Head of Post Production at Lower Street. Alex is a domesticated audio nerd, who has spent the past five years learning about human social conventions via the medium of podcasting. From Edinburgh, Scotland he is an audio engineer that helps produce audio dramas in his spare time. Alex specialises in soundscapes and creative mixing. He has a deep and abiding love for sandwiches, and is the 2nd worst bowler at Lower Street.
Lower Street provides next-level podcast production services for ambitious companies: everything from podcast strategy and creation to growth. We’ve worked with companies like BCG to develop multiple podcasts like Climate Vision 2050, BCG Compliance, BCG Fintech Files, and BCG In Her Element. We’ve also helped produce: Cadence Bank’s In Good Companies; HPE’s Technology Now, Zuhlke’s Data Today, Northern Trust’s The Road to Why, Zoobean’s The Reading Culture; ICR’s Welcome to the Arena and ZeroNorth’s Navigating Zero.
Find out more at https://lowerstreet.co/ and sign up for our newsletter to keep in touch https://lowerstreet.co/newsletter-sign-up
00:00 Alex R:
Welcome to the Podcast Book Club from Lower Street Media, where we take a look at what makes great podcasts so, well, great. Our day job is making podcasts, but we're also fans of the medium, and it can be really useful to dig into what makes the shows we love so good. Today we're talking about Switched on Pop, a podcast about the making and meaning of popular music hosted by musicologist Nate Sloan and songwriter Charlie Harding. Chatting with leading artists, songwriters and producers, Switched on Pop breaks down pop songs to figure out what makes a hit and what is its place in culture. Listeners will come away finding aha moments in their favorite music. I'm Alex R. I have to give my last initial to distinguish myself as we'll have two Alex's today. I'm an audio engineer at Lower Street. I spend most of my time doing editing and mixing, little sound design, that sort of thing. I'm not normally in front of the microphone, but it's my turn to host. And I chose this podcast we will be discussing today. Of course, I'm not alone since a club ideally has more than one member. I have a coalition of my colleagues with me. So why don't you all introduce yourselves, starting with Zoe.
01:16 Zoe:
Hi, everybody. I'm Zoe. I'm a producer here at Lower Street and a podcast book club regular.
01:22 Alex R:
And Jackie.
01:23 Jackie:
Hey, I am a podcast producer and a Lower Street book club irregular.
01:29 Alex R:
And the OG, the original, the number one Alex B.
01:34 Alex B:
Hi, I do what other Alex does, but in a different accent with less hair.
01:40 Alex R:
Amazing. Very happy to be with you all today. In this episode, Switched on Pop dives into the question, who killed the key change in pop music? And let's start with people's broad thoughts on the episode and probably address the fact that it is a bit of an outlier as it was recorded in the style of a noir detective drama that is sort of the element in the room as I started listening.
02:03 Clip:
It usually doesn't rain in Southern California, much like Arizona. But tonight it was pouring in music down.
02:11 Zoe:
I really, really enjoyed it. I loved the conceit of the noir. I'm a big noir fan, so I sort of recognized a lot of the themes and tropes used. And I really, really enjoyed that element of it. And I really liked how it used the structure of a noir film to sort of tie in all the interview elements and tie in even like a broad conclusion at the end of everything they talked about. I really liked it. I have a lot to say about it. So I'll let others speak a little.
02:38 Jackie:
I liked it at the beginning. And I think that I'm somebody who likes to watch boring documentaries. So I think that I probably would have preferred it got a little bit more boring and they stuck to it a lot. But it was still really, really fun. I was also very emotional going into it because I hate key changes with a passion. It ruins my favorite Jimi Hendrix song, Bold as Love, has the worst key change of all time, in my opinion. And that song is perfect until then. So I have a personal connection to this episode.
03:11 Alex R:
Wow. I was not expecting that. And I'll have to revisit that song and hear what you're talking about.
03:23 Alex B:
So I was in a kind of similar boat as Jackie in so far as I felt after a while I got a little bit tired. But then it came full circle and I loved it. And I should say I'm slightly biased. I unironically listened to like old Philip Marlowe noir radio plays like for enjoyment. So this is just absolutely fantastic. And yeah, there are specific points I want to get into. Overall, it was just really good fun. I really got the impression that the people who were making it and the people who were being interviewed were having a good time. And that just makes it all the more enjoyable to listen to, I think.
03:55 Alex R:
Yeah, definitely. I was probably cringing at first. And it made me not want to share this episode because I didn't think it was representative. But then they just kept going with it. And then the guests started kind of laughing at it as well. And it won me over by the end. So I was into it. And then listening again, I caught all these sort of like music references in the intro. Like it's just laden with musical puns.
04:26 Clip:
It had been a caesura since I'd had a big break. But that was all about to change. The clock struck a perfect fourth. I was getting ready to call it a day when I felt the hairs on the back of my cochlea stand on end.
04:34 Alex R:
I had to look up caesura, which is a musical pause. When he says, my rate is $100 a day plus accidentals. That is like the nerdiest music reference because accidentals are notes that are not in the key of the song. So, yeah, it won me over eventually.
04:57 Alex B:
It made me want to the only time in my adult life I've wanted to own a car because I so badly want to sit down and put my car into prestige.
05:06 Alex R:
I didn't even catch that one. Amazing. So I guess, are any of you musicians? How familiar are you with music? Does this work for non-musicians? I mean, music, large part of my life, I took lessons as a kid and continued through uni. So I consider myself a music nerd. But yeah, curious if it works on a big level.
05:24 Alex B:
So I'll say probably as someone who's not a musician, who doesn't know anything about music theory and who makes a conscious effort not to think too much about the music I like, because it's nice to have things in your life that you just enjoy, you don't think too much about. I thought it was really accessible. I think the order in which they place the guests, I suppose most specifically having the music journalist up front, was useful because it gave them the opportunities to show examples.
05:54 Clip:
My name is Chris Dalla-Riva and I'm a musician and I work on data analytics. About four years ago, I decided I was going to listen to every Billboard Hot 100 number one hit. But I just noticed when I got to like the middle of the 1990s that certain harmonic devices or chord changes that I had seen just weren't coming up anymore. The most common key change, I always call it the gear shift key change, where usually towards the end of the song, you're going up a half step or a whole step.
06:29 Alex B:
I kind of intuitively knew what a key change was, I think. It just helped to have it spelled out and then developed upon with examples. So I thought it was pretty accessible, to be honest. And worst case scenario, if there were bits I missed, I was still just delighted with the whole noir glazing, whatever the right word is, for what they were up to.
06:44 Zoe:
Yeah, I totally agree. So my relationship to music is I'm not a musician, but like know enough about it that when the puns were sort of sprinkled in, if I got a few of them, I felt like a smart person, which is great, you know. And I do agree that it felt very accessible. And I think it could work on two levels. If you're really into music and you understand music theory, like you'll enjoy all the puns and then you'll enjoy all of that extra detail. But if you aren't, then the story will carry you along and the sort of conceit of the episode being a noir and having this really fun character driving the narrative, it'll suck you in regardless.
07:32 Alex B:
They made it really approachable and surrounded it with things that were widely known, kind of cultural touchstones, Whitney Houston and all that. So that it is probably an enjoyable retread of things that musicians already know and a pretty accessible introduction for people who don't know much about music.
07:52 Jackie:
I'm a hobby musician, so I am self-taught and I know like basic music theory, but not enough to like have caught all of the references. But I will say, I just want to highlight my favorite joke in the whole thing, which I think was like the perfect mix between the film noir and the music pun. And it was under my desk, I loaded my trusty 45 RPM record. That's so clever. But anyway, I think overall it was, yeah, it was like super accessible. It was one of those things where you don't really need to know the intricacies of like music theory to understand that. Once you explain what a key change is, you're just talking about like, okay, let's get a general overview of production and industry changes that may have led to this. And so it's like, yeah, it is super accessible. And to Zoe's point too, it kind of makes you feel like you know a little bit more about it than you do even. Like when you do get one of those puns, they threw so many that there are probably like just dozens in there that I just didn't even realize were puns too. So yeah, like the Accidentals one, I was kind of like, that's a weird way to phrase that. But that like works perfect, especially with the topic of key change. So yeah, I think it was pretty successful of like making you feel smarter than you are, but also giving you information in an easy way.
09:06 Alex R:
Yeah, I could have gone deeper even, but I understand why they kept it, you know, the length that they did. And I have appreciation for it and listening to it again and figuring out how deeply layered it was. Knowing that they're not trying to make a two hour deep dive on music theory, it is an introduction to this topic. What about the musical examples? When you heard the music, could you hear what they were talking about? And do you think those worked? And just so we don't get into trouble playing clips of music, I will play some chords from our theme music and then I'll throw in a key change. And coming up, here's the key change.
10:02 Alex B:
I think for me, not knowing many of the specifics or like the mechanics behind key changes, it was just a good retread of like, oh, that's what one feels like. And oh, yeah, I've heard that before. That's what that's called. You know, I also think I would love to know how they went about like clearing those clips. I know they're part of a larger company. I think they're with Vox Media, so they probably have some lawyers with them at some point. And I think having artists on who presumably agreed to have their music played as well was a really smart move.
10:38 Jackie:
My thoughts on the music for like just the way the order, I think, was clever. I mean, I don't know if this was intentional, but the Bon Jovi example was like such a glaring example of a key change that I feel like if you don't hear it, then like you're beyond tone deaf. So I think it was a good start. Same with like the Whitney Houston one. And also, when I heard that, I was like, oh, yeah, that's a good one. So that was the first in clink. OK, I did change my mind toward the end about key changes. This actually changed something in me. And that Whitney Houston example was like the first drop. But yeah, like it did get some of them got a little bit more complicated or a little bit more difficult to hear if you aren't, I guess, super in tune with it. Some of them got a little bit more difficult to pick out, though. But I think the Bon Jovi one was a great example because that was like right away you completely understood what it was.
11:39 Zoe:
Yeah. And I think as well, like using those big, so hard hitting examples like the Bon Jovi song and the Whitney Houston song, like everybody remembers the feeling they have when they heard that key change. I certainly can with the Whitney Houston one. The second I heard that, I reminded me of sort of what it made you feel. And that gave a really good like grounding, I thought, to it's it's kind of more in culture than just like a key change. It like creates an emotion in people. And I think that really helped with building a bridge across the episode in a way. Not exactly sure what I mean, but yeah.
12:12 Alex R:
No, that's perfect. Makes total sense.
12:16 Zoe:
You talked about aha moments. My big aha moment was King Kunta, the Kendrick Lamar song. I was like, there's a key change in that song. What? And then, yeah, there is. I was.
12:26 Jackie:
That's that was the second one where I was like, oh, yeah, I love that song.
12:30 Zoe:
Yeah, I was super duper surprised by that. I really liked those hip hop examples they gave because you never would think about it in that genre.
12:36 Alex R:
Totally. And the fact that he did modulate his voice and you can clearly hear it. I was very impressed.
12:42 Clip:
He did. He modulated up and down. So perhaps a rare find in the hip hop world.
12:50 Alex R:
I did love the hip hop talk, but it was also kind of curious to hear more from maybe a producer who did work in more organic genres to see if they would talk about, you know, whether they were intentionally or not intentionally changing keys or anything like that. But yeah, what did you think of the guests themselves, the producer, One Oak and the musician and singer songwriter, Emily King?
13:13 Alex B:
I will say that I think they did a great job of picking guests who would like take part in the bit, who were obviously got the joke, understood it and found it funny.
13:26 Clip:
And I just have to click my mouse a few times. So you're saying you could bring the key change back to life with a click of a button and yet you sit idly by while the key changes are massacred.
13:40 Alex B:
I think there's a version of that show where there's some incredibly painful interviews with people who either don't get it or don't want to participate in this. And I was actually debating with myself during the first interview whether or not the questions had been asked in a normal interview and then had been swapped out after the fact. But as the interviews went on, it felt like they were just interacting a little bit too well and they were laughing at the jokes. So he must have been doing those in character. If he hasn't, they've done an excellent job of swapping them out after the fact. But yeah, I think they did a really good job of choosing people who are on the same wavelength as the host, as the interviewer.
14:20 Jackie:
Yeah, I understand what you're saying about the hip hop producer. Like it might have been nice to hear some more, but it was like a pretty top level investigation. And the theme was like going after the suspects too. And if they're talking about the genre, I mean, that makes sense. Yeah, it could have been cool to hear from others, but that's just like a different documentary in my opinion. I don't want to hear somebody nerd out about their current production line of do's and don'ts because then you get people who are like, you know, I really like time signature changes, you know, the math rock crew.
14:54 Alex R:
That's my world. Yeah. And it is boring to a lot of people.
14:58 Jackie:
Yeah, I don't season. Yeah, but it was really fun. I think too, The Order was like something that stuck out to me because it's like the music journalist, like Alex was saying, is so accessible at the beginning. The hip hop. I mean, that's kind of fun. And it gives you this like kind of peek behind the curtain that's not necessarily overly informative. I don't know if that's the right word. I don't want to use that in like a negative connotation, but like it's not overwhelming, I guess. Right. Like the way that they're saying digital audio workspaces, like you can tell it's written for people who don't have any familiarity with that. But yeah. And then also, I think the guests too, I don't know if it's like just naturally happened, but they got more and more invested into the bit. And I think the bit started to fall apart in like a funny way, like almost like when you're watching SNL and you could see the actors cracking up. So it was just, it was really fun. That last guest, it was really cute to hear their conversation back and forth. They had like good chemistry and it was funny. So it was like a really nice way to wrap it up.
15:57 Alex B:
I was waiting the whole episode for the host to break character. He does it, I think once or twice, very briefly. And I had to like go back and listen through to it again. I was like, yes.
16:09 Clip:
How dare you make me feel so many emotions. Sorry.
16:15 Alex R:
Yeah. Emily King was a very good sport. And I think it did make a lot of sense as an arc because she's fighting for the key changes. She's so into them.
16:23 Clip:
And I had booked a session on my birthday on July 10th, because I said, I'm gifting myself a key change because this has got to be resolved. And I am not going to let this song go down in flames.A key change for your birthday. Now I know what to get you next year. I was so damn grateful for that key change. Better than any cake, any ice cream cake. And that says a lot because I love ice cream cake.
16:50 Jackie:
What you just said about how it kind of like played with the story well for her to like, you know, be fighting for it at the end. I think that every successful podcast or just like any kind of medium for telling stories has a story arc, whether or not you can like pick it out on your own as like, you know, just the average listener. There are so many, so many examples of that. You don't realize you've gone through a journey, but in this situation, it's like you went through a journey, right? You went through something happened. Here's the example, like the proof that it's happened. Here's what may have happened. And here's what's happening now and into the future and, you know, leaving you with a question. So I think it's like, yeah, it's just perfect example of how everything has a story arc. And if you're not, if you don't have a story arc, then you don't have anything to keep listeners to the end.
17:37 Zoe:
Yeah, I, I think that's a great point.Yeah, I don't really have anything massive to add. I really agree with everything everybody said, especially the kind of the humor and the loveliness of, you know, as the episode goes on, the character sort of breaking down a little bit. And I think possibly because you said it's an outlier amongst a series, it's maybe a little bit more, maybe doesn't follow that conceit or is a little bit more standard in its style. Maybe they need to do that a little bit. So it's a kind of nod to what business as usual looks like. You need those kind of moments where it's like, we're actually just being a bit silly here and we're having a silly moment here. But I'd be interested to know, like, what's the rest of the series like?
18:15 Alex R:
Yeah, I haven't listened to a ton of them. You can pick and choose the topics. There actually is one about Eurovision that is the newest one. Exciting. So they analyze the songs there.
18:25 Zoe:
I'll go and listen to that.
18:28 Alex R:
Yeah. And it's, you can't tell they're having fun. And I think in general, all the episodes have a sort of lightness to them. So it feels like they can sort of play with structure and genre like this. So maybe this is very much in the spirit of the podcast in that they can kind of do whatever they want and they just explore popular music topics.
18:55 Clip:
It's the beginning of May. So that can only mean one thing. It's time for Eurovision. I don't know about you, but I feel like Random Access Memories is one of the most important albums of the last decade. It's a bold claim, Chuck, but I feel like it's not unwarranted.12% of the Hot 100 right now is Mexican regional. So Yacht Rock. Do you know what Yacht Rock is, Nate? Are the Jonas Brothers funky?
19:25 Alex R:
This is the kind of podcast where it's exactly up my alley, but I for some reason don't listen to it a lot. And I don't know why that is, but this one, I think, you know, has won me over. Maybe I'll become a regular listener.
19:38 Alex B:
Something to add on to a point that Zoe made about the facade holding up or not. I thought there was a couple of interesting points where the character of the detective kind of butted head against the needs of the episode, if that made sense. So in the first interview, one of the questions he asked is, you know, why don't you tell me the history of key changes? I thought, what? That's not… Totally. That shabby detective work. That's kind of useless, I'd say. But it is important for the episode itself, like to have that context to then build upon for the rest of the episode. So I thought that was kind of interesting. I don't even necessarily think it's a mark against it, but it is interesting to see how a gimmick or an angle that you take can bump up against some more kind of structural nuts and bolts requirements of a show.
20:32 Jackie:
I think for a gimmick to work, I think it also has to serve the episode and like the goals of the episode. I think that this one played well with what they were trying to do, but you can't just choose a gimmick to have a fun episode. Like it has to work. It needs to carry what your intention is through. So that's an interesting point, Alex.
20:52 Zoe:
Yeah. And I think like just to add on to something that Alex B said, so with that mention of, can you tell me the history of a key change? Like that is shoddy detective work. You should already know this. This is sort of basic. To get around that, you could script in something like, I don't know, you know, I want you to tell me in your own words or something like that, that would just make it work within that world. So I think it is possible to get around things like that with a little bit of clever scripting.
21:21 Jackie:
That's my pro tip for when I'm interviewing people and I should know more than I know. I just want to hear in your own words.
21:27 Zoe:
I just want to hear it in your own words. I love that. So true.
21:30 Alex B:
I do a disclaimer at the start of the conversation. I say, I'm going to ask you some questions. The answers to them might seem obvious, but I'm doing it on behalf of the listener, not me.
21:38 Jackie:
Honestly, it's good to do that sometimes because you might assume that you know something and then you're wrong anyway. So it's always good to get people's like, it's like, it's like fact checking, right? When I was in journalism too, you'd ask everybody the same question and you'd see what the common thread is. Right. Like when you're interviewing people. So it's not just lazy. There's reason.
22:01 Alex R:
So overall, did this episode make you want more? Would you subscribe?
22:07 Alex B:
Yeah, absolutely. In fact, it made me like the medium kind of got me back into it again. I tend to listen to the same sort of shows. So listening to this was like, oh, that was actually really fun and well put together. I should spend more time just listening to random shows, even if it isn't that particular episode. Because I even though I don't know and you guys have mentioned it, but that did not feel like something that was sustainable for like however many hundreds of episodes they've done. So it had to be the exception rather than the rule.
22:41 Jackie:
I also think like listening to podcasts, this might just be a personal thing, but I don't find it as a consistent thing in my day. Like, you know, you don't know when you're going to have time to listen and focus on it, especially if you're not like commuting, like a lot of people don't commute anymore. Right. So like when do you actually get time to sit and listen? Usually it's like doing chores or something. And so I really like podcasts where you can just pop in and out like episode wise. And this is like a really, really digestible piece. Like it's so short and you get on an all encompassing story. Like I don't have to listen to 18 episodes of season one to understand what's happening or even the characters, like the host in that. Like there's none of that continuation. And I like again, like sometimes it's good to have that because you like having like a relationship with your podcast host and stuff.But I think at the same time, you always have to balance just giving somebody something in like its entirety with every episode.
23:35 Alex R:
How about you, Zoe? Would you subscribe?
23:37 Zoe:
I think I probably would, but I have to say that I enjoyed the sort of the noir concept so much that potentially like that's what I would be listening on for. I mean, not to say that it wasn't interesting to learn about, but I did really, really enjoy that element. So what I kind of wanted was like a noir podcast, I guess. And I know that's not what it's going to be. So I'd be interested to listen to other episodes actually and see what business as usual looks like.
24:06 Jackie:
Maybe they have other gimmicks that are just as fun.
24:09 Zoe:
See, that would be really cool if they did it as well as they did this one. That would be really, really fun, but it would be difficult to to keep that up in a really meaningful way, I think.
24:20 Alex B:
Unless they do like an investigation of death metal in the style of the archers or something.
24:23 Zoe:
You could do so many fun things. You could do so many fun things.
24:25 Jackie:
I'm thinking of like a political campaign of like two types of music versus each other or something for the top of the charts. When you open it up to like those kinds of creative things, like there's a lot of potential and it's really fun. Yeah, totally. I'll also just really quick. I just I just thought about this is kind of going along with my last point. I think podcasts, to listen to them the way that like you watch YouTube or used to watch YouTube, I don't know, is like really cool. So like to be like, you know, this is a topic that I don't really know much about, but I'll watch a 15 minute video that explains this bit to me and then I'll move on to something else. And so, again, like it doesn't necessarily have to mean that I want to listen to every episode of that season. But I wish I wish that there was a better like podcast discovery app where you could just like hop around like how you do on YouTube, because these kinds of things, I love listening to them. But there's not really a great way for me to find them unless I do intense research or somebody recommends them to me. Like I want a YouTube algorithm style thing. That's how I would keep listening.
25:29 Alex R:
That's a brilliant idea. I mean, they're often just lost in the episode list and you wouldn't find it unless you just scrolled through reading all the titles. That's a really good point.
25:39 Alex B:
On the topic of titles, I think this is something we've covered in previous discussions. But this episode does deliver on the title, which I think is quite important. And I think that is another element of the discoverability problem insofar as a lot of podcasts have titles that don't mean much to anybody, really. But in this case, the question is, who killed the key change? And there is a thorough examination of that and then a conclusion at the end, which I think is really great and might sound kind of obvious. But there are plenty of shows that have a title that's either a little bit disconnected from the topic of the episode itself or that doesn't fully deliver on what the title promises. So I think they did a really great job.
26:26 Jackie:
That's such a good point. It's like it's like right now in the podcast world, we have such a focus on the actual show titles. Like you're not selling an episode, you're selling an entire series. And it'd be really interesting to see if things evolve to where you are selling an episode. And those titles are what draw you in. That's like that's so interesting because I'm sure a discoverability app is going to be invented or implemented within Apple or something along the way.
26:41 Alex R:
I love it. You all are selling me on this podcast. I was hesitant to bring you all. It's great. I'm glad people got something out of it.
26:55 Clip:
My interview with Emily King complete. I'd reached the end of my investigation.
27:00 Alex R:
Anything else anyone wants to add before I wrap this investigation up?
27:08 Zoe:
Yeah, it was really interesting how there was like a dialogue with the normal host. I really liked that element of it because almost you had someone who at the beginning you were telling about, you know, is it Joe Treble is the is the character, right?
27:24 Alex R:
Joe Treble. And there are two hosts normally. So I imagine he is the other host.
27:29 Zoe:
Gotcha.
27:26 Clip:
I drove back to my office. Charlie Harding was pacing back and forth in the hallway.What are you still doing here? I tried to go, but I got stuck in this ostinato outside your office door. Well, I'm glad you're here. I've cracked the case, but I don't think you're going to like it.
27:49 Zoe:
So having that kind of conceit of having the regular host there, having Joe Treble starting this investigation and then at the end presenting his findings back allowed there to be a conclusion at the end. It's like, OK, we covered this, this, this and this. And I'm presenting it to someone in a totally normal way because I'm presenting the findings of an investigation. I really, really liked that element of it. I thought it was really clever.
28:11 Alex B:
Oh, and also, also, it's kind of a get out of jail free card for transitions between interviewees. You just do a bit and then you end up at the next section of the podcast. It's genius.
28:23 Jackie:
That's what I just again, it's just like, and you're picking a gimmick. It's got to serve the purpose. And this one was just perfect for it. So it's so cool.
28:31 Alex R:
Could they do it again? Or is it a one off?
28:33 Jackie:
No. Well, according to Zoe, they could do it infinitely. I'm assuming.
28:41 Alex B:
It would take a few episodes for it to get old for me, for sure.
28:45 Zoe:
Yeah. Yeah, I don't know if they could do it. Maybe they could do it infinitely. But yeah, you could certainly do it where you frame it differently as like an overarching investigation. Or you'd have to do something a bit wider with it, I think, to take it out of this one episode. But I definitely think you could do it again.
29:01 Jackie:
I think it's like those special episodes of things where if you did it all the time, it wouldn't be special. But if you do it a couple of times every now and then and it pops up on you, you're like, oh, I get to enjoy this again. Too much of a good thing is an annoying thing. So keep it light. Make it exciting every time.
29:19 Alex B:
Or iterate on it like a Miss Marple version, maybe.
29:21 Jackie:
Like a bumbling detective who accidentally stumbles into things. I've never seen Miss Marple, so I'm just riffing off that.
29:24 Alex B:
That'd be amazing. Columbo, like podcast investigations. Just get to the end. One more thing. I'm awful forgetful these days.
29:39 Alex R:
Well, that'll do it then. If you've listened, what did you think about Switched on Pop? Let us know. You can find us on Twitter at PodBookClub. Hit follow on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And we'll see you in the next episode of Podcast Book Club with a new show and a new host. Goodbye.