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"A LOT with Audra" is the podcast for women juggling big dreams and full lives. Each episode, host, Audra Dinell, Midwestern wife, mom and neurodivergent multi-six figure entrepreneur encourages women to embrace their many roles holistically by living a values-based life with confidence and joy. Through candid discussions, practical strategies and inspiring stories, this podcast is your guide to designing and achieving success without losing yourself in the process.
Ep55
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[00:00:00]
Meet Dr. Rebecca
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Audra Dinell: I am so excited for you to listen to this episode. I had a total full body yes moment when I got to talk to Dr. Rebecca Culver Turner. She is an amazing therapist and founder and mother, and so many other things. In this podcast, we talk about listening to our bodies and what systems theory is and how it can help leaders show up better in the workplace.
Thank you for tuning in, Dr. Rebecca Culver Turner is a seasoned therapist, educator, administrator, and leadership consultant with over 20 years of experience in clinical and academic settings, A licensed clinical marriage and family therapist. She specialized in trauma therapy before expanding her expertise to leadership development and organizational consulting. Drawing from years of experience, systems theory and [00:01:00] relationship science, she helps leaders strengthen individual effectiveness, team dynamics and organizational health.
As program director for the Master of Science and Family Therapy Program, she led innovative cost-effective initiatives that expanded mental health across that expanded mental health access, launching free teletherapy services during the pandemic community trainings after the Andover tornado and no cost therapy for victims of the Washington DC plane crash.
Dr. Culver Turner is the founder of the Culver Turner Institute focused on helping businesses create healthier systems to reduce turnover and improve workplace culture. Her work demonstrates how strategic relationship driven innovation can create measurable impact and sustainable growth. Welcome, Dr.
Rebecca. [00:02:00] Dr. Rebecca, can I call you Dr. Rebecca? Yeah. Okay. Or just Rebecca. Just Rebecca. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Rebecca's Professional Journey
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Audra Dinell: So you're a clinically trained therapist who has spent the last decade of your career in academia, led a master's of Science and family therapy program as the program director, but recently you made a big leap into launching your own business.
So first of all, congratulations. Thank you. I know that takes a lot of courage. Paint us a picture of what that leap has looked like for you. Mm.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: It has been kind of wild. I think if you, 10 years ago you would've told me. Rebecca, this is what you're going to be doing 10 years from now.
[00:03:00] I would not have believed you. So I knew early on probably in my master's program. So I went straight through from my undergrad to my master's, to my PhD, and I knew early on in my master's program that I really wanted to be in this environment that was full of learning and. Growing and transformation.
And so I always pictured myself in academia and honestly, like, kind of pictured myself retiring in academia. And so it's been a huge surprise for me to end up here, especially right now.
Audra Dinell: Okay. So when you say right now mm-hmm. Tell me more about that. Mm-hmm.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: well, it probably would be helpful if I re rewind it a little bit, if that's, yeah.
Okay. So I would say how I got here right now. Is based on all of my [00:04:00] experience as a program director.
Challenges in Academia
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: So when I started as a program director for the Marriage and Family Therapy Program 2018, I knew that I was coming into a program that was really a system that was in distress. There were a lot of things that were going on.
And so I knew I was walking into kind of a hornet's nest, honestly. And so also not sure why I said yes to that. So I moved to Wichita for that job and I basically went on a listening tour and I talked to everybody and I asked them questions about what was going on, what they thought the problem was, what they thought needed to be fixed, and that was really helpful.
Applying Systems Theory
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: And I started noticing slowly that lo and behold the things that I was teaching in the classroom. To train therapists, which was systems theory. [00:05:00] I applied to the program as well, applied to being the leader. And so I started noticing all of these systemic principles that were happening with the students, with the faculty, with the staff, and you know, I didn't do this on my own, but I slowly started applying those systemic principles to my work as a leader.
And I, I'm surprised that I'm surprised by this, but it worked slowly, slowly.
Impact of the Pandemic
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: And then just as things started stabilizing, the pandemic started. And, you know, I really, I feel for any leader that went through the pandemic. Because there were so many decisions, heavy, heavy, hard decisions that had to be made during that timeframe.
And again, I found that those systemic principles that we were teaching in the classroom, that we were teaching to families, to our clients as well, [00:06:00] really helped me tremendously as a leader. So it started something, it started growing. In the back of my head, I thought. Wow, these, these systemic principles that we are applying to families and our clients, what if we applied this to businesses and for leaders?
Because it really helps you make sense of leading a group of people. So I tuck that the way for the longest time of. Well, maybe when I get older, maybe when I get older I don't know. Maybe when my kids go to college, something like that. Maybe I'll. Kind of do those foray into doing systemic applications for businesses.
Yeah.
Audra Dinell: Maybe someday.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Maybe someday.
The Perfect Storm and Transition
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: And then this perfect storm arrived much faster than I would've ever imagined. My guess is a lot of people are going through kind of a similar storm, so I think academia. [00:07:00] Universities are really, they're in their own transition right now. There's a lot of talk about a demographic cliff where the age of traditional college students, so they're starting college.
It's plummeting.
Audra Dinell: Okay?
Rebecca Culver-Turner: So there's a lot of distress, within academic institutions,
Audra Dinell: meaning that when you're 18 and you graduate from high school. The path that is most obvious might not be college to more people. Is that what the cliff looks like? Yes.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: And that there's just demographically less 18 year olds.
Okay. Than there were, you know, like five or 10 years ago.
Audra Dinell: Interesting.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: So less people. So if you have less people enrolling in college, you have, you know, less tuition coming in. Yeah. And so I think that unfortunately over the next five or 10 years, there's gonna be a lot of smaller universities that are probably going to have to.
Evolve in really innovative ways, or they'll end up having to shut their doors. [00:08:00] Mm. So that's a really stressful context to be in. Mm-hmm. And so I just, I saw that storm and I was starting to be in the middle of it.
Listening to the Body
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: I was also noticing what the stress looked like on myself personally, physically, and I just, I knew.
I could almost envision it that I could buckle down mm-hmm. And just keep my head down and work really hard and just look forward to retirement. Mm-hmm.
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: And I could just see this, shell of a person that I was going to turn into if I just kind of buckled down and waited for retirement, probably.
Overworked, probably feeling stressed out, undervalued, not having a lot of joy from my profession or my job.
And just looking forward to retirement and I. I didn't want that. [00:09:00] I could see how quickly that could happen too. So I thought there's another road that I'm going to try that I see.
And it's higher risk.
It's not as clear. Like you just said. And so, but I'm gonna try it because I don't wanna just wake up one day and it's 10 years down the road and I'm. Just kind of turned into this shell of this person. Just to kind of make it through to the end.
Audra Dinell: So I remember when we talked before the podcast, and that was what hit me about what you said.
You said, I had this moment where I could see myself in 10 years. Mm. And I didn't like that picture. Mm-hmm. So you're here working in. This career, this profession, this position that 10 years prior you would've said, yes, that's where I wanna be, checks my boxes. Mm-hmm. This is what I envision for myself.
What were those signs within [00:10:00] yourself that you started paying attention to?
Recognizing Stress and Seeking Therapy
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: Yes, it, I feel like there's a lot of different things that kind of came together, but to summarize it best, is I started. Listening to my body more. So I, I remember I was downstairs and I was painting our guest bedroom and our office downstairs and I had the, a book on the audio book, the Myth of Normalcy.
By Gabor Mate and he is, and I'm listening to him talk about the research behind people who are overworked about emotional suppression. You know, the body keeps the score. Mm-hmm. And chronic illness. Mm-hmm. So he's walking through all this research about how, what happens to people whenever they keep emotionally suppressing, they keep their head down, they keep kind of overworking themselves.
Yep. And then later in life [00:11:00] there's these connections to chronic illness. And I thought. Oh my God. So that's the thing that started kind of nudging the door open for me. I thought that's gonna be me. Mm. That I'm, I am on that road to. Chronic illness if I'm not careful. Mm-hmm. Because I had worked really hard to where I had gotten to be a program director and a lot of that involved ignoring my body.
Mm-hmm. Keeping my head down, working really hard, suppressing emotions. Mm-hmm. And I thought that I am, that's the formula that I have used to get where I am. Yeah. But that's also the same formula for chronic illness. So that, that was a huge kind of eyeopener of, oh, I, I better do something about
Audra Dinell: this. So let's get more specific.
The phrase that's coming to me is Marshall Goldsmith's phrase, what [00:12:00] got you here won't get you there.
Ah, oh,
I hear. That's what I like that you are saying. I like Uhhuh. Yeah. This is what has gotten me this level of, of success. It has worked for me so far, but the next act shall we say.
Mm.
Is gonna be different.
Mm-hmm. So when you said you were ignoring your body, you were keeping your head down, what did that look like? Did that look like being tired and just having another cup of coffee? Or what did it look like when you were ignoring your body?
Rebecca Culver-Turner: I think on the outside it looked like professionally, you know, for the longest time I said yes to everything. Yeah. I, I was kind of in this mantra of like, I worked harder. I worked smarter. Yeah. But on the inside I think wasn't quite, you noticing the culmination of stress
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: And how it was impacting me. So there are all kinds of ways I started noticing it. Like one is I hold, I can [00:13:00] hold stress in my lower back.
Mm-hmm. And so I started having to like, go to the chiropractor do all these things to release the, release the stress, because it was like just getting stored up in my body. And I was getting really bad headaches. I was also getting chest pains, so I had to get that checked
Audra Dinell: out. And everything was fine.
There was nothing abnormal. Right. But that was just a sign of stress on your body. Yes. Wow. Yeah.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: So there are all kinds of things that like, kind of by themselves it didn't quite make sense, but you kind of like you, you push it all together and I think when in your, in chronic stress too. I'll speak for myself.
I really noticed that I was turning into this person that I, I didn't quite love. Mm. I wasn't, I'm like, oh, I know who I'm turning into because I'm always stressed out. I'm always, working all the time. And [00:14:00] so like, like irritability, frustration, that was kind of, that was coming out in different ways.
And then I started going back to therapy in the middle of that, and that was really eye-opening too.
Internal Family Systems Therapy
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: So, I have a therapist that is trained in internal family systems, and then I'm also trained in internal family systems. I love the theory, but there was this also this piece of this puzzle.
I started to recognize that I was really suppressing different parts of myself to really like, kind of stay on course professionally. So that, that work from my own therapist really helped me recognize that too.
Audra Dinell: So you used the practice of. I Fs mm-hmm. To recognize some of these things. What would you say you were suppressing
Producer: Mm.
Audra Dinell: To maintain this professional identity? Mm-hmm. If you don't mind sharing an example, like what would that look like in a person?
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Mm-hmm. [00:15:00] Oh, that's a really good question.
I think one of the things that I was.
Suppressing Emotions in Professional Life
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: Suppressing was, you know, if I had to do something that was just part of my job. That was a really hard part of doing my job. So part of my job is I had to have a lot of really hard conversations with people and I had to make a lot of really hard decisions.
Mm-hmm. You know, in the end I felt like usually I made the right decision, but they were still really, really hard. And I think that I kind of wrote off how hard some of those decisions really impacted my body, my emotions. And didn't really leave enough space for that. It was kind of like, okay, I did that.
All right, well, I just need to suck it up. Go to sleep, move on. You know, tomorrow's a new day.
Audra Dinell: Yeah. Bottling it up.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Bottling it up. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. And so. And I, [00:16:00] and I kind of justified it in my head too. I almost actually heard myself doing it again of, I knew it was the right decision, so I knew it was something that I had to do that was part of my job.
And so I spent a lot of like cognitive space, like, oh, you did the right thing, Rebecca, that's what you needed to do, like, move on?
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Like you checked all the boxes as part of your position, like. Emotionally you should be able to move on to
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Emotional Agility and Energy Drain
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Audra Dinell: Which is such an energy drain. Uhhuh, I just studied under Susan David, who's a psychologist who coined the term emotional agility.
Mm-hmm. And she talks about type one thoughts and type two thoughts and type two thoughts. Are those judgmental thoughts of like, okay. You did the thing, the thing was hard, now you're judging yourself for still staying in that emotional space. Mm. Like you're judging your need almost. Mm-hmm. Or you're judging your feeling.
Mm. That's [00:17:00] fascinating. It is fascinating because I, it just made me think, how often is my energy drained because I am thinking these type two thoughts. Mm-hmm. And I'm not sure that she is the one that did that research and came up with those different. Initiations of the thoughts, but she's the one I learned it from.
Mm
Producer: mm
Audra Dinell: I just thought that that is, so I'm glad to be aware of that because how much energy will I get back if I'm not just having the thoughts? Right. But not judging. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. The thoughts and you know myself in that situation. Yeah.
Yeah.
So here you are, you're having that moment, you're painting. Mm-hmm.
Identity Shift and Personal Realizations
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Audra Dinell: You are downstairs, you're listening to the myth of normalcy, and you're realizing I'm doing some of that and in 10 years I'm not gonna like who I am.
What did you [00:18:00] do from there? And did your identity shift in any way?
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Yes, and I, well, I'm going to. I think talk about this almost kind of raw in that it's something that I've been kind of conceptualizing and writing about, but it's helped me kind of make sense of the transition for myself.
Balancing Personal, Professional, and Positional Identities
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: So for me, I've been kind of working out, I think there's really like three different identities that.
Have kind of made sense to me throughout this transition. So, and I can kind of briefly explain those three and then how I make sense of them together. But to me there's, there's three things that have shaped me so. Like personal identity, professional identity, and positional identity. Okay. So the personal identity I think to quickly summarize is like [00:19:00] what brings us joy, our hobbies, friendships, family, relationships those things in our personal life, our professional life is, you know.
Where do we feel accomplished? Where do we, you know, for myself, where do I feel intellectually stimulated? What are my career goals? Where do I wanna contribute back to the community and the world at large? Those that's kind of like. A career and professional identity. And then positional identity is your job position itself.
So your role, your title, your job responsibilities? Mm-hmm. And how I started making sense of it is that with all three of those identities, when I was looking at it, I felt like I was putting almost all of my energy. And time and effort into my positional identity, into my job position. Yeah. And so I, when I kind of went [00:20:00] out on this journey of how do I then start balancing out those three, like how do I pay attention to, brings me joy personally, how do I pay attention to.
What I really wanna get out of my career and accomplishments. And then also how do I keep doing a good job within my job position. Mm-hmm. So listening to my body that the myth of normalcy really kickstarted that. But there are other people too that I've been listening to and reading. So, Martha Beck.
She talks about her own journey in doing that. And ironically, it started because of chronic illness and she became really depressed and suicidal. So she went on this really extreme journey to never lie to herself and to just follow joy where she felt it in her body. Mm. So personally, I've found a lot of, that was really [00:21:00] helpful. And then Diana Chapman, she talks about what that could look like professionally. So she talks about the whole body? Yes. Mm. So whenever you're listening to your body and making decisions even professionally, that can apply. Mm-hmm.
Listening to the Body for Professional Decisions
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: So all, all of those, those, that skills, that content, I really, I would, I started doing a better job of kind of pausing and listening to my body, even if it didn't quite.
Makes sense or, or meant that, that there was this harder decision on the horizon. Hmm.
Audra Dinell: Like even if the pause and the listening brought up deeper, bigger, mm-hmm. Messier questions.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. So I started noticing within my position, just responsibilities, conversations, meetings. And noticing that within my body that it just, it felt really awful.
Mm-hmm. And so I started kind of deconstructing that and putting, kind of like putting it on the table and trying to make sense of it within therapy [00:22:00] as well. Mm-hmm. So that really helped. But then there were also really positive things that I was noticing too.
Finding Joy in Personal and Professional Life
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: So started noticing when I felt. Joy the most personally.
Mm. And a lot of that has been centered around food.
Audra Dinell: Okay. And
Rebecca Culver-Turner: just ha, I, I find the most joy, like having a really delicious meal with my family. Oh. Like that's what I find life giving right now. Yeah. Brings me lots of joy and so I prioritize that. Hmm. But then professionally I also started noticing that, I still find a lot of joy in learning.
Audra Dinell: Mm-hmm.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: I still find a lot of joy, which is kind of what led to my business idea. I still find a lot of joy in walking into kind of a messy situation and trying to make sense of it. Mm. And like asking lots of questions until I can finally put like this really complicated puzzle together.
Audra Dinell: Oh yeah. [00:23:00]
Listening to Your Body
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: So all of those things I was paying attention to and kind of what built this habit of listening to my body and having that help inform my decisions.
Audra Dinell: Mm. So if someone's listening and they're going through a shift or they're entering what might be their second act?
Producer: Mm.
Audra Dinell: A habit they can do is pause.
Listen to their body and deconstruct what it's saying.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Yes.
Audra Dinell: Either through therapy or perhaps journaling.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Yes.
Audra Dinell: I don't know.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Yeah.
Postgraduate Supervision in Therapy
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: So in therapy world, we have something that's called postgraduate supervision. So this is after they graduate and they have their license. They're out working for at least two years.
They still have to have a supervisor. So, I've noticed that a lot of times when students would go through the program, they would do kind of the same thing that I was doing, which was like put their head down. Work really hard, get through all of the requirements, [00:24:00] and then, you know, graduate, that's their end goal.
And then they get out into like private practice or a clinical position and people start asking them, well, what do you specialize in? What's, what do you enjoy? What's your expertise? And a lot of times it's kind of this, I'm not sure.
Audra Dinell: Mm.
Journaling and Self-Reflection
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: So I went through this exercise with one of my post grad supervisees and I said.
I want you, after every session that you have with a client, I want you to take. 60 seconds. And I want you to journal, and I don't want you to think about it, I just want you to gauge what you feel in your body after that session. Mm-hmm. How are you feeling? Do you feel joy was, or do you feel totally depleted?
And I want you to keep record of that for a while, and I want you to just pay attention to what you enjoy. Mm-hmm. So I know you couldn't do that whenever you were. Getting your master's degree and then the grind, but you can do that now. [00:25:00] Hmm. And so it was always fascinating.
Discovering Professional Joy
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: Some people would come back with an Excel spreadsheet.
Okay. And they would say, I can't believe this. But I had a lot of joy working with. Teenagers. Yeah. Like, who would've thought that, or, I really enjoyed doing this. And so that's professionally a way that they could really start listening to their body and paying attention to the work that they were doing.
And the joy or the depletion that they were feeling from their own work.
Audra Dinell: So it's more of feeling it in your body instead of thinking it in your head. Yes. Yeah. 'cause when I think, when you're thinking it in your head, you're thinking about so many different pressures that we all have.
Producer: Mm-hmm.
Audra Dinell: Right now.
Mm-hmm. Societally, culturally, whatever it may be. But your body's not gonna lie to you. Yes. Is what I'm hearing you say. Yes.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Yeah.
Audra Dinell: Never, never lies. What a beautiful habit. Mm-hmm. You started doing that, did you do it on an Excel spreadsheet? [00:26:00]
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Sorry, I'm laughing because my husband loves data and he, it always has a spreadsheet that he's working on and I am the opposite.
No, no spreadsheet for me.
Audra Dinell: Did you just note it down in a journal? Did you put it on an app in your phone? Like how did you note like, ooh, those conversations don't feel good in my body?
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Mm-hmm.
Mental Notes and Casual Reflection
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: I think sometimes I create space for it when I wake up where there's, you know, this practice where I can take time to myself before my kids wake up, even before my husband wakes up.
Yeah. But I think I'm a bit more casual about it. I can even just sit down with a friend and talk about it and have a really. Good conversation from it. Yeah. But since I've been doing it for a little while, I can kind of make notes of it just mentally in my head as I'm going along.
So even kind of recently I had a meeting where even during the meeting I thought. This is, this is depleting. Mm. And I'm gonna finish this meeting. Mm-hmm. [00:27:00] And you know, that person's probably not ever gonna be able to tell, but I know that I feel depleted right now just talking to this person. I know this is probably not going to head anywhere.
And so I might take some more time after that meeting or at the end of the day to kind of pay attention to. Why did I feel like my soul just got like sucked out of that? Like during that meeting? Like what, what was going on? And why, why is that just a definite no for me?
Audra Dinell: Hmm.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: But also on the other side too, of, I could have like a really great conversation.
Or have something and be like, wow, I know that felt really good. And, you know, that's interesting to me. So now, like the, the food thing, yeah, I definitely like, know that really well. But I just take notes of it.
Balancing Work and Personal Life
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: So like last night the four of us, my family were having, we're just having like, we ate meatloaf and we're just like really enjoying the meatloaf and we're all like sitting around
enjoying food together and then we play the game of [00:28:00] Uno and that like, as simple as that sounds, I thought, wow, that was the perfect way to end the day.
Audra Dinell: Just so getting out of your head and getting into your body where it doesn't matter what it looks like or if it was filet mignon or meatloaf.
Yeah. Which very midwestern of you. I would like
Rebecca Culver-Turner: both,
Audra Dinell: but you know, just like this feels good to me. It just makes me so excited because I think about as we shift it's less about. External and it's so much more about internal. Mm-hmm.
The Importance of Pausing
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Audra Dinell: But I'm hearing you say, the first habit you have to do is pause and notice what feels really good to you.
Mm-hmm. It just helps take the pressure off for every second of every day of motherhood or career or entrepreneurship to feel good and more allows. Us to know like we're humans, we're gonna do hard things. That's a part of life. And if I can have a meal [00:29:00] at night with my kids and play games after, that's really gonna fill me up.
Mm-hmm. That's gonna fill my joy bucket. So if the morning hustle and bustle, getting them out of the house doesn't fill my joy bucket up, that's okay. Mm-hmm. The pressure's off there because I've listened to myself, I know what fills mm-hmm. My joy bucket. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Ugh.
Supportive Habits for Personal Growth
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Audra Dinell: What other habits. Would you say have supported you on your journey or have you seen be helpful to your clients or your students in the past?
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Mm-hmm. So, you know, we were chatting about this before we got started, but I definitely notice that since I'm starting something up on my own. And I'm an extrovert. I really cannot be isolated throughout the day. And so how [00:30:00] I've kind of pieced that, that together, is it, and I will say that like starting something new and starting over feels very risky and vulnerable.
Mm-hmm.
The Role of Community and Connection
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: And so I feel like sometimes I just like tear off the bandaid when I do this, but I have learned to talk about what I'm doing with people and usually they're friends. They're not even like part of professionally what I'm doing. But you know, there's a handful of people that I know I can call and say.
You know, this is what I was working on this week and well, in fact, I did it right before this. So, I was working out with two friends and I said, I'm working out all of my nerves because I'm getting ready to go on this podcast and I'm really excited about it. But you know, here's what I'm kind of nervous about.
And they're like, ah, you're gonna do great. You know, so we're just working out, sweating it out and, and that's really helpful. So I just, I talk about what I'm trying to do with my business, with people [00:31:00] who aren't critical, who aren't judgmental. But in that way, I'm not, I'm not really isolated in what I'm doing.
And then the other habit that has really helped me is, you know, I spent a lot of my life if you're. Kind of a workaholic, or you're very career driven, very ambitious.
Prioritizing Physical Health
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: I think what went to the side of that was my physical health. Hmm. And so I'm now kind of like adding that back into the mix of, of what I do.
And so, had a personal trainer for a while and learned strength training, which I had never done in my life. So that was really hard and fascinating. Yeah. And so that. That physical element of that self care and working on that. And, you know, I'm 42 and so I'm thinking about, oh, what does it look like to age Well, yeah.
You know, a lot of that research talks about strength training. So as goofy as I. Probably look, that's something that I'm gonna prioritize. So those two habits have been really helpful for me, like [00:32:00] prioritizing strengths, training in particular, and then just talking about what I'm doing so I'm not isolated and endeavors whether, whether it's good or hard.
Whether I've had kind of this like slump or whether I feel like really great about, about what just happened. Yeah.
Starting Over and Lifelong Learning
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: And then I've had the privilege and the opportunity to watch a lot of people start over as well. Mm-hmm. So, when I was the program director for the master's program there were a lot of people that I met who.
Where it was their second career, it was their third career. And you know, for a while I, we had people who were coming into the program who were close to retirement and they said, I think I wanna be a part-time therapist in my retirement. And so that, that's also fascinating too. So I got to watch a lot of people who were starting over and I got to watch.
How they did it successfully and maybe not so successfully.
Overcoming Self-Doubt
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: And so what I watched them [00:33:00] kind of struggle with is I had a lot of people tell me I'm too old, or It's too late for me, or, you know, like, I'm not as tech savvy as those, 20 something year olds coming outta college. And really what I noticed is that if they could take this learning stance within the program.
They could remain curious and, and of course like keep driving towards their goal. Sometimes they did much better than, you know, the 20 something year olds in the program. Mm-hmm. But I gotta a lot watch a lot of people wrestle with, oh, I'm not, I'm not smart enough. I'm not good enough. I'm, I'm too old.
Not enough or I'm too much of this. Mm. And so I, I know that enough to what to say to myself, like to recognize if I can get stuck in that rut.
Audra Dinell: Yeah. Those hooks.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Those hooks of like, yes. Yeah.
Audra Dinell: Yeah. Those stories. Yes. That, you know, maybe we grew up hearing 40 is over the hill or thinking right [00:34:00] about age uhhuh, and then you get here and you're like, this feels different.
But it's so easy. It's such a story to. Hook yourself into Yes. Of it's too late or I'm too old.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Yes. Yeah.
Audra Dinell: So I, I see that, I hear that a lot. And I think what a gift that you were able to witness that so that you could see what to avoid. Mm-hmm. And staying curious. Mm-hmm. I was just thinking when you were talking about strength training.
I'm doing strength training right now as well. Oh, as I approach 40. Yes. Okay. And I've got a personal trainer, Uhhuh, and I think it's tapping into your learner, you know? Yeah, yeah. The thought of like, you love to learn and you know that about yourself, Uhhuh, and it's like, well, this might not be the subject that you would choose to learn about.
It is connected to what sounds like your value of aging. Well, and like I'm thinking back to you saying, I see myself in 10 years and I don't like who I would be if I keep going down [00:35:00] this road. It's like. You're intentionally choosing to paint this new picture of yourself in 10 years, and it's a woman who is strong and has aged healthy and well.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Yeah. Yes. And you know, I keep doing it even though. I know how silly I look sometimes,
Audra Dinell: but it's like, Uhhuh, you gotta do it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Applying Systems Theory to Leadership
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Audra Dinell: So I wanna go back to systems theory. Mm-hmm. I'm so curious.
What were you noticing when you, in 2018, you were there, you were on your listening tour. You noticed that some of the things that you were teaching your students through systems theory could be applied to leadership and that actually was helpful.
Producer: Hmm.
Audra Dinell: Talk to us about that, and specifically through the lens of, you know, many people, and especially women, might be listening to this podcast who aren't in academia.
That's fine. This is relatable to all of us. Mm-hmm. Because the systems theory that [00:36:00] you were teaching to your students for their therapy practice, that you applied to your team and your leaders. Those can be applied to different shifts that we are all going through, I'm assuming.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Hmm. Yeah. Yes. I think I'll bring up what I noticed almost right away.
Understanding Triangulation in Systems
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Rebecca Culver-Turner: Systems theory has largely been applied to families and distress. So what do a lot of families get caught in whenever they are a system? That is full of anxiety and stress. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of common things that happen. So one of the most common things that happens is what's called triangulation.
Mm-hmm. And so it becomes especially messy if somebody who is in leadership, in power, and who kind of has control of the system. So in families, it's the parents mm-hmm. Or caretakers. Mm-hmm. And [00:37:00] then in business it's the leadership team.
Audra Dinell: Mm-hmm.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: So the most common thing that can happen when the system gets distressed is that somebody they can start triangulating with somebody who's kind of outside of the leadership.
Or who's outside of kind of the pool of making decisions. So where it gets messy for families is if one of the parents gets triangulated with another kiddo and then they kind of team up and maybe like mom and child team up against dad or dad and child team up against mom. Okay. And it just creates a lot of, mess and dysfunction within that system. And so there's a lot of ways that systems kind of rebel against that triangulation. Mm. So same thing that happens, you know, I noticed it within the program. I noticed it within other systems, is sometimes people in leadership can get triangulated. Yeah. And to somebody else's [00:38:00] stress and maybe have like sympathy or they're trying to relieve their own anxiety about something and they start kind of building these like coalitions or triangulation with people.
And so one of the first things to look at within families or businesses is how can you create a unified front? Mmm. So it's like if you're working with a mom and a dad, it's how can you, the two of you create a unified front so your kiddos don't know that you guys disagree about something or they're not pulled into your conflict.
Oh,
Audra Dinell: interesting. So the
Rebecca Culver-Turner: same thing with leadership teams. How can you guys be a united front? And even if you don't agree fully on something, how can you kind of hold that line together and not be kind of pulled off into the or, or you yourself start like kind of pulling other people in because you don't agree with something.
Audra Dinell: Yeah.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: So,
Audra Dinell: oh, I have seen [00:39:00] that. Have experienced that. Mm-hmm. I love having a name to it.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Yeah.
Audra Dinell: Yes.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Yeah. You don't have to be, I mean, you know, in academia sometimes I feel like we make up Kuhn concepts or just put a name to what's already happening, but I think anytime that I start talking about triangulation, everyone says, oh yeah, I've seen that before.
Uhhuh it, click Uhhuh. Yeah.
Audra Dinell: Whether it be in a family or a team.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Audra Dinell: Well, it has been.
Final Thoughts and Contact Information
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Audra Dinell: Amazing to talk to you today. I relate to so much of what you said and feel like you just brought so much wisdom, not only from a therapist, but from a woman in her second act, stepping out, starting her own business. Wrestling with identity, developing habits to support this woman that you want to be.
I feel like it's just such a gift to hear your story. Mm-hmm. Thank you.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Yep. Thank you for having me.
Audra Dinell: Yeah. So if teams need you, if they are in the midst of triangulation or other distress. Where can they [00:40:00] find you? Mm-hmm. Where can leaders go to find you? Mm-hmm.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: My website is culver turner institute.com and that's probably the easiest way to, and the fastest way to find me.
Audra Dinell: Okay, great. We'll link that in the show notes as well as your LinkedIn profile. And thank you for being on the show today.
Rebecca Culver-Turner: Yes, and I have to share Audra, and you can cut it out if you want to. When I got to talk with you on Zoom, it was one of those professional moments of just really, it felt like that whole body.
Yes. Mm. So you probably caught my enthusiasm. In some ways, I think enthusiasm can be kind of vulnerable too. Yeah. But I just, I'm like, if I have a whole body Yes. To something professionally, you know, I'm all in. There were a lot of things that we talked about that resonated with me.
I really enjoyed talking with you. And so that just like professionally, I was like, my whole body was just like. Yes.
Audra Dinell: Thanks for [00:41:00] saying that because when you were talking about the full body Yes. Uhhuh, my mind was thinking I had a full body. Yes. When we connected Uhhuh Uhhuh. And I hope you did too. Oh yes, yes.
Oh, I love that. Yeah. Well, sometimes, I mean, I live for sort of like chasing those and chasing that, that joy. That's really how I like strategically move through the world as if like it feels exciting. It's something I wanna pay attention to. I get into trouble when there's too many exciting things I say yes to.
Yes, Uhhuh. So I very much resonated with your sign. I I was almost brought to tears. I did not think that's where you were gonna go with it. But when you said saying yes to everything, I was like, ugh. Yes. Yeah, I hear that. I feel that. Yes. So, thank you.
Mm-hmm. Thanks, Audra. Yep. [00:42:00]